2008 U.S. Presidential Election Mega thread

[Corrina]

Just curious, and this is not intended as a slight against you, but can anyone here (without using Yahoo or Google or any other online search engine) name anyof the other POWs in the same camp as McCain? I admit I cannot, but these men are bigger hearoes than McCain, IMO. Unlike McCain who received the best medical treatment he could get, once they found out who he was, the other POWs suffered. Yeah, he had the option to go home and turned it down, but he was treated "better" than your typical POW.

As far as I'm concerned, the man should be honored for his service, but not treated like a hero. Not while those other former POWs aren't even mentioned or thought about...

You know, I think your judgment is totally off on this Kevin, and also somewhat inaccurate. For instance, McCain's broken bones were never completely set. He had to undergo months of grueling therapy to bend his knee 90 degrees. He still cannot raise his arms above his shoulders. That's why he has that weird wave.

I think any man who survived that camp and that situation is a hero. I'm not going to parse judgment on who was better or not. And I think the vast majority of people who survived that camp will state that the real heroes are the guys who died, not them.

If you ask me how this affects him, I'd say McCain has to be in some sort of low level pain a great deal of the time, which probably accounts for some of his temper. Chronic pain sucks. And the temper is probably due to some post-traumatic stress.

But I'm not worried about psychoanalyzing him or making his ordeal lesser than it was. I'm concerned about his actions right now.
1. Poor judgment in not vetting Palin.
2. Poor judgment going back and forth about suspending his campaign.
3. Poor judgment is allowing hateful rhetoric that he knows is not true be used by his campaign.

I see no reason to attack what McCain went through or question his courage. Rick is absolutely right. You stepped over the line, at least for me, Kevin.

[FalconX2000]

Sorry but if your going to use your military status as pretty much the core reason as to why you should be president, the ENTIRE story is relevant to the discussion. He did break, he did use his father's to get special treatment over other prisoners, he did make confessions. Very important to note when the man is going "POW" as the explantion to all things. Do we have to worry he will break again when things get tough as president? Considering his temper and history the answer is yes. His POW status is not and never should be a get out of free card for shitty behavior.

Besides I am only using the standard that Republicans and Swift Boaters set. If they don't like that standard, they should have not established it. And the bit about his morals etc was a reference to the last eight years which has only come more pronounced in the last 4 weeks. Long story short, my "edit" is factually based considering the last 40 years of that man's history.


While I do think McCain's conduct while staying in the POW camp is relevant (and I consider him a hero even if he did break under torture and do 'confessions'), unless its to demonstrate a specific point, you really shouldn't be using the standards your political opponents set if you know of a better one.

[rick]

He did break, he did use his father's to get special treatment over other prisoners, he did make confessions.



The man was denied medical care, was tortured and in fact was not treated better because of who his father was.

As I said I am not voting for the man, but let’s not swim in Swift Boat sewage okay?

[rick]

Just curious, and this is not intended as a slight against you, but can anyone here (without using Yahoo or Google or any other online search engine) name anyof the other POWs in the same camp as McCain? I admit I cannot, but these men are bigger hearoes than McCain, IMO. Unlike McCain who received the best medical treatment he could get, once they found out who he was, the other POWs suffered. Yeah, he had the option to go home and turned it down, but he was treated "better" than your typical POW.



The medical treatment McCain finally got after several weeks of just being left to more or less die was so that the North Vietnamese could use him as a propaganda tool. And even then the so-called “best” medical care he got, still left him with some permanent damage.

Like I said, let’s all not vote for the man, but let’s also not disgrace ourselves by sounding like a Karl Rove stand in.

I suggest a little dignity.

[Copper]

A thought occured to me today--I think if this was another election year Obama's campaign would have been dismissed by various commentators as being competently run at best. But compared to McCain/Palin running such a spectacularly, I'd venture to say even cartoonishly bad campaign, Obama's coming off as the more viable choice over all.

I find it a bit disturbing that you can take almost any still from a McCain/Palin rally and turn it into a political cartoon using just what was said--unaltered--on the podium. Fox news bitching about a Newsweek cover came off as a weak SNL skit. ("Look at how they focused on her wrinkles! In the meantime, we have no problem with Curious George Obama dolls!")

I hope to God things improve after this. This whole campaign season had me scratching my head.

[TomStillwell]

A thought occured to me today--I think if this was another election year Obama's campaign would have been dismissed by various commentators as being competently run at best. But compared to McCain/Palin running such a spectacularly, I'd venture to say even cartoonishly bad campaign, Obama's coming off as the more viable choice over all.

I find it a bit disturbing that you can take almost any still from a McCain/Palin rally and turn it into a political cartoon using just what was said--unaltered--on the podium. Fox news bitching about a Newsweek cover came off as a weak SNL skit. ("Look at how they focused on her wrinkles! In the meantime, we have no problem with Curious George Obama dolls!")

I hope to God things improve after this. This whole campaign season had me scratching my head.

I agree with the comments on the McCain campaign but totally disagree about Obama. Obama's campaign has been methodically organized and well executed. From massive voter registration drives to use of cutting edge technology, Barack's people have done their jobs very well.

[Infra-Man]

Like I said, let’s all not vote for the man, but let’s also not disgrace ourselves by sounding like a Karl Rove stand in.

I suggest a little dignity.

On the note of dignity and discourse, a few of my friends out here have started to become alarmingly/frighteningly/deathly smug, rabid, and self-righteous--which, since I live in the NYC area, is saying something.

At a party a month ago, a friend of mine threw her drink in the face of someone who said he was voting for McCain. I talked to the guy and apologized and he was more of a conservative persuasion so he was just voting based on policy. When I asked my friend why she did that, she said "We can't let them think we'll tolerate that kind of thing," and her eyes looked crazy.

Over the weekend at a bar, I got into a small back and forth after a friend claimed to have seen video of someone yelling "Kill him" at a Palin rally. When I explained to him that as of now no video or audio of the incident exists, that it was originally reported in a Washington Post article, and that he was probably thinking of the guy yelling "terrorist" at the McCain rally, he paused and looked at me and said, "What, are you a McCain supporter now?"

Later that night while walking out from the subway with another friend, we were talking about Sarah Palin and I mentioned that if you watched the Alaska gubernatorial debate, she seemed much more competent than she does now. He stopped in his tracks, shook his head, and said "I can't believe you just said that." When I asked if he'd seen the video, he said no and that he didn't have to.

So, anyways, I guess I'm afraid that if this smugness and lack of objectivity continues, liberals will turn into the same kinds of insufferable partisans they previously badmouthed.

[Copper]

I agree with the comments on the McCain campaign but totally disagree about Obama. Obama's campaign has been methodically organized and well executed. From massive voter registration drives to use of cutting edge technology, Barack's people have done their jobs very well.

I guess that was just the cynic in me talking. If this was a saner election year, I'd have trouble picturing pundits and commentators offer anything more than a grudging respect for how well the Obama people did their job.

[KevinTBrown]

The man was denied medical care, was tortured and in fact was not treated better because of who his father was.

As I said I am not voting for the man, but let’s not swim in Swift Boat sewage okay?

Rick, Corrina, et al, read through this: http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/make_believe_maverick_the_real_john_mccain

I know it's been posted before, but there's a lot in there that people don't know or have yet to fully read elsewhere.

[KevinTBrown]

I guess that was just the cynic in me talking. If this was a saner election year, I'd have trouble picturing pundits and commentators offer anything more than a grudging respect for how well the Obama people did their job.

Hillary Clinton fell into that trap. She thought she could do the "same ol' same ol'" and people would fall in line. As Stressfactor said earlier, people have had ENOUGH of the bullshit.

More people this year are actually paying attention to things and not just taking it at face value. Plus, in this age of YouTube, past "mistakes" are there to be seen by all. We weren't quite there in '04, but we are now. Politicians running in the future need to take heed and adjust. Obama did, Clinton and McCain did not.

[Corrina]

Kevin, I'm hardly going to take a *Rolling Stone* article as gospel truth about John McCain.

C'mon.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Kevin, I'm hardly going to take a *Rolling Stone* article as gospel truth about John McCain.

C'mon.

Rolling Stone is all over the place. Some of their stuff is incredibly solid journalism, some of it is partisan bullshit and some of it is fantasyland conspiracy theory crap. I remember some articles on HIV in Africa back in the late 80s that were just atrociously bad in terms of factual distortions.

Unfortunately, the inconsistency does render the total package rather suspect.

[AllisterH]

Hillary Clinton fell into that trap. She thought she could do the "same ol' same ol'" and people would fall in line. As Stressfactor said earlier, people have had ENOUGH of the bullshit.

More people this year are actually paying attention to things and not just taking it at face value. Plus, in this age of YouTube, past "mistakes" are there to be seen by all. We weren't quite there in '04, but we are now. Politicians running in the future need to take heed and adjust. Obama did, Clinton and McCain did not.

Exactly.

Make no mistake about it, Obama knows how to run a campaign and from his beginning from the Illinois Senate, this is a guy who dots his "I"s and crosses his "T"s.

If the opponent makes even the slightest mistake, Obama will capitalize on that. It should prove interesting when they eventally do "campaign retrospectives/studies in politicial courses/colleges" when they come to the rise of the Obama factor...

I think he's fundamentally changed how campaigns are run....His rise to the top was unquestionably fast and I wonder if any other politician in the wings has seen that....I betcha that "speech writing classes" is now probably seen as a mandatory class among politicians

[FalconX2000]

On the note of dignity and discourse, a few of my friends out here have started to become alarmingly/frighteningly/deathly smug, rabid, and self-righteous--which, since I live in the NYC area, is saying something.

At a party a month ago, a friend of mine threw her drink in the face of someone who said he was voting for McCain. I talked to the guy and apologized and he was more of a conservative persuasion so he was just voting based on policy. When I asked my friend why she did that, she said "We can't let them think we'll tolerate that kind of thing," and her eyes looked crazy.

Over the weekend at a bar, I got into a small back and forth after a friend claimed to have seen video of someone yelling "Kill him" at a Palin rally. When I explained to him that as of now no video or audio of the incident exists, that it was originally reported in a Washington Post article, and that he was probably thinking of the guy yelling "terrorist" at the McCain rally, he paused and looked at me and said, "What, are you a McCain supporter now?"

Later that night while walking out from the subway with another friend, we were talking about Sarah Palin and I mentioned that if you watched the Alaska gubernatorial debate, she seemed much more competent than she does now. He stopped in his tracks, shook his head, and said "I can't believe you just said that." When I asked if he'd seen the video, he said no and that he didn't have to.

So, anyways, I guess I'm afraid that if this smugness and lack of objectivity continues, liberals will turn into the same kinds of insufferable partisans they previously badmouthed.

...:frown:

Next time that happens, facepalm yourself and tell them the Democrats aren't a sports team.



On a lighter note:

John McCain is, apparently, the Penguin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjYniYChX3k

[LtMarvel]

That is funny!!

[KevinTBrown]

Kevin, I'm hardly going to take a *Rolling Stone* article as gospel truth about John McCain.

C'mon.

Rolling Stone is all over the place. Some of their stuff is incredibly solid journalism, some of it is partisan bullshit and some of it is fantasyland conspiracy theory crap. I remember some articles on HIV in Africa back in the late 80s that were just atrociously bad in terms of factual distortions.

Unfortunately, the inconsistency does render the total package rather suspect.

The majority of the article is culled from previous newsstories that were under-reported or just skipped over. Some of those stories people such as Crowley and Paul McEnery have posted here and in the other political thread.

[KevinTBrown]

And Obama has successfully played McCain like a bass fiddle....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20081014/pl_politico/14564

Quotable: "I was astonished to hear him say that he was surprised that I didn’t have the guts” to bring up Ayers, McCain said on KMOX, a St. Louis radio station.

“I think he is probably ensured that it will come up this time.”


Uh, hey, Johnny-boy, that's what Obama wants! :biggrin:

[DrewEdwards]

http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/scott_bakula_jumps_into

OH BOY! :D

[Michael P]

So, anyways, I guess I'm afraid that if this smugness and lack of objectivity continues, liberals will turn into the same kinds of insufferable partisans they previously badmouthed.

Eh, there have always been arrogant idiots voting Democrat, and there will always be arrogant idiots voting Democrat. I doubt it's something that's becoming endemic to the party.

Plus, and I'm just guessing here, but are these people from the Williamsburg/Park Slope area? Because if so, there's your explanation right there.

[FalconX2000]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/27176673#27168092

Wow...this kinda went under the radar, but Chuck Todd casually referred to large segments of voters in West Virginia, Missouri, Arkansaw and even Ohio as racists. Not in the tipsy toesy way pundits always tend to refer to the impact of race, but actually using it as a hard factor when dissecting the changing electoral map.

It starts at 5:00.


And it's kinda surprising, because despite his skill at neutrality I tend to think of Todd as a hair Republican leaning.

[Corrina]

Rolling Stone is all over the place. Some of their stuff is incredibly solid journalism, some of it is partisan bullshit and some of it is fantasyland conspiracy theory crap. I remember some articles on HIV in Africa back in the late 80s that were just atrociously bad in terms of factual distortions.

Unfortunately, the inconsistency does render the total package rather suspect.

I read the article.

1. It did not tell me anything that I didn't already know.

2. It took the items I already know and applied an obvious slant to them, without properly sourcing them. Like the assertion that McCain's big change between 1967 and 1973 that his 'career was in overdrive' (paraphrasing.) I'm willing to believe that but it's not presented with any quotes or sources, it's clearly just the writer's interpretation of events. You want to convince me, RS writer? Source your story.

So, no, Kevin, not convinced that going after McCain's POW record is of any merit whatsoever. Going after his shoddy decision making in the last eight years, damn fair game. One thing I give to Obama: his voice was one of the loudest NOT to go into Iraq when it might cost him his political career. That took foresight (which others had) and guts (which other did not--see Hilary Clinton.) But McCain's record in the past eight years leaves a string of bad decisions behind it.....

Going back to the time he spent in a POW camp with arms and a leg that fully healed and calling him not a hero and disrespecting that? I don't like it and I can't even see the damn point.

[Infra-Man]

Eh, there have always been arrogant idiots voting Democrat, and there will always be arrogant idiots voting Democrat. I doubt it's something that's becoming endemic to the party.

Plus, and I'm just guessing here, but are these people from the Williamsburg/Park Slope area? Because if so, there's your explanation right there.

Yeah, there has always been extreme idiots voting Democrat and extreme idiots voting Republican, but I've been noticing that my liberal friends out here are turning up the scary partisanship to 11, disregarding all the "play nice" rhetoric of the Obama campaign. It may be my first dose of liberal city smugness, and I have to say, it's pretty embarrassing.

And yeah, it's a bunch of Williamsburgers/Greenpointers. Lots of partisan enthusiasm in tight jeans and ironic t-shirts.

[Michael P]

Yeah, there has always been extreme idiots voting Democrat and extreme idiots voting Republican, but I've been noticing that my liberal friends out here are turning up the scary partisanship to 11, disregarding all the "play nice" rhetoric of the Obama campaign. It may be my first dose of liberal city smugness, and I have to say, it's pretty embarrassing.

And yeah, it's a bunch of Williamsburgers/Greenpointers. Lots of partisan enthusiasm in tight jeans and ironic t-shirts.

$10 they'll be on to something else by December.

[the4thpip]

Folks at the McCain-Palin campaign can’t be pleased to hear that the Republican National Committee is considering tapping a line of credit and spending $5 million on the reelection campaigns of Republican senators. Though no decision had been made as of when Politico reported this story Monday night, the RNC has little time to decide before available TV ad slots disappear.

If the committee does invest money in Senate races, it will be widely interpreted as a sign that the party is preparing for John McCain’s defeat. Instead of trying to save the presidential candidate, the RNC would be trying to stop the Democrats from achieving the overall domination of Washington that would come with a 60-seat, filibuster-proof Senate majority.

Adding insult to injury, this presents yet another way to compare the McCain campaign to the Bob Dole campaign of 1996. Under then chairman (now Mississippi Gov.) Haley Barbour, the RNC diverted money from Dole’s sinking campaign to Senate and House campaigns in an effort to stop the bleeding down-ballot and preserve the GOP’s fledgling majorities.

For what it’s worth, though, Republican sources told Politico that they haven’t left the party’s presidential nominee for dead. “We’re not giving up on McCain,” an unnamed “top GOP source” told Jonathan Martin. “We’re still going to do everything we can there because his margin and what he does affects these races.”

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2008/10/14/rnc_senate/index.html

I love that last bit. "We're still supporting McCain - but not because we think he can win. If he loses too badly, we're all going down with him!"

[Infra-Man]

$10 they'll be on to something else by December.

Haha. They'll say things like "Yeah, like, Obama's okay, but, man, it's like this first month after is just not as good as his EPs, and, like, you know, there are people dancing at his live shows and shit. The new album's so overproduced and shit, total sophomore slump now that he's broke big. I think Pitchfork only gave it a 6.3 or something. Anywyas, gotta go, brunching at Enid's."

[the4thpip]

Biden did appear stunned, however, when informed by Moran that Virginia GOP chairman Jeffrey M. Frederick has told Republican canvassers to suggest to voters that Barack Obama and Osama bin Laden are connected because "both have friends that bombed the Pentagon."

"My god, did he really say that?" Biden replied, fumbling for words. "I can't believe ... I'm surprised John McCain hadn't gone down and whacked the guy with his fist. I mean, I don't think there's a prejudiced bone in John McCain's body. But that kind of stuff is really off the wall. I refuse to let myself believe John McCain's ..."

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Biden_on_GOP_rallies_Dont_encourage_1014.html

[the4thpip]

The American Civil Liberties Union is trumpeting a judge's decision in Michigan which brings to a halt the practice of eliminating voters from rolls if their mailing address is found to be invalid.

Recently, the GOP chairman in Macomb County, Michigan, detailed a plan to use a list of foreclosed homes to challenge voters. His pronouncement drew an immediate backlash, with predictions that the plan would "backfire."

It has.

The suit, filed by ACLU national and ACLU of Michigan, along with the Advancement Project, aimed to protect voters whose registration cards were returned to government offices by post as 'undeliverable.' Judge Stephen J. Murphy of the U.S. District Court of Michigan's Eastern District concluded that the program of eliminating these voters from rolls is in violation of federal law.

The voter purge program, better known to elections integrity experts as 'voter caging,' is a long-storied GOP tactic employed against minority, student and low-income voters. In September, the Obama campaign filed a lawsuit in Michigan challenging the illegal tactic.

"You essentially send a first-class letter to a hoursehold where you suspect that that person no longer lives there but where they're still registered to vote," explained Allen Raymond, a convicted GOP elections fraudster who spent time in prison after the discovery of a phone-jamming scheme during the 2002 elections. "That letter comes back. ... Somebody [at the local polling place] then challenges that vote if that person comes in to vote."

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/GOP_voter_purge_declared_illegal_in_1013.html

[FalconX2000]

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/posttech/2008/10/obama_campaign_reaches_game_wo.html

The Obama campaign is going into the gaming market. lol.

Comment on blog:
Some people say Obama is "elitist." Actually, he's teh l337.

[KevinTBrown]

I read the article.

1. It did not tell me anything that I didn't already know.

2. It took the items I already know and applied an obvious slant to them, without properly sourcing them. Like the assertion that McCain's big change between 1967 and 1973 that his 'career was in overdrive' (paraphrasing.) I'm willing to believe that but it's not presented with any quotes or sources, it's clearly just the writer's interpretation of events. You want to convince me, RS writer? Source your story.

So, no, Kevin, not convinced that going after McCain's POW record is of any merit whatsoever. Going after his shoddy decision making in the last eight years, damn fair game. One thing I give to Obama: his voice was one of the loudest NOT to go into Iraq when it might cost him his political career. That took foresight (which others had) and guts (which other did not--see Hilary Clinton.) But McCain's record in the past eight years leaves a string of bad decisions behind it.....

Going back to the time he spent in a POW camp with arms and a leg that fully healed and calling him not a hero and disrespecting that? I don't like it and I can't even see the damn point.

Corrina, as far as POWs are concerned, he had it "easy". He, unlike many, many others, did eventually get medical treatment. Yeah, they tried to use him as a propoganda device and he didn't play. Yeah, his arms were broken and they healed badly. Yeah, he walks with a limp. Yeah, he survived. I respect his duty to his country. Nothing more, nothing less.

I just hate knowing that he's being called a hero when others in his POW camp are blatantly ignored or being treated as if they don't exist. THOSE are the stories I'd like to hear/read. Funny that we haven't....... Was he the only one there?

[the4thpip]

Here is something less controversial:

Katherine Harris Unhappy With 'Recount' (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,362303,00.html)

[Major Comma]

Not surprised.
Harris came off looking pretty bad in that film.

[KevinTBrown]

Some very telling numbers in the newest Gallup poll:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/111151/Gallup-Daily-Race-Steady-Obama-Leading.aspx

I especially like seeing that they're expanding who they poll. Not too surprisingly, when they go away from "traditional", the number increases for Obama.

[Corrina]

Corrina, as far as POWs are concerned, he had it "easy". He, unlike many, many others, did eventually get medical treatment. Yeah, they tried to use him as a propoganda device and he didn't play. Yeah, his arms were broken and they healed badly. Yeah, he walks with a limp. Yeah, he survived. I respect his duty to his country. Nothing more, nothing less.

I just hate knowing that he's being called a hero when others in his POW camp are blatantly ignored or being treated as if they don't exist. THOSE are the stories I'd like to hear/read. Funny that we haven't....... Was he the only one there?

Kevin, with all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about. By the same standards, anyone who didn't get killed in combat isn't a hero. Unless you've been there, I don't think you get to judge on this one.

Especially when there's so much on the record TO judge and show McCain's true self. This is like going after Obama for doing pot and cocaine, as admitted in his own books. (And I'm really surprised the GOP hasn't gone after the coke admission, quite honestly.)

And I don't care what anyone else is doing. If you look around, there are plenty, plenty of people who get publicity and respect for their service to our country besides John McCain.

This is just a really stupid way to go after McCain.

[Stressfactor]

What kills me with laughter is the number of Republican supports who keep crying that Obama will turn America into a SOCIALIST country.. just like... (gasp) EUROPE!!! Oh the horror! Because we all know that the French have NO freedom and those lazy Germans get more paid holidays than we do in the US. :rolleyes:

I mean, seriously, the US could do WORSE than adopting some of the aspects of our Europeans allies. And, oh yeah, that's another thing... It's not like we don't consider almost all of the European countries our ALLIES!

People are so clueless.

[AllisterH]

What kills me with laughter is the number of Republican supports who keep crying that Obama will turn America into a SOCIALIST country.. just like... (gasp) EUROPE!!! Oh the horror! Because we all know that the French have NO freedom and those lazy Germans get more paid holidays than we do in the US. :rolleyes:

I mean, seriously, the US could do WORSE than adopting some of the aspects of our Europeans allies. And, oh yeah, that's another thing... It's not like we don't consider almost all of the European countries our ALLIES!

People are so clueless.

Er, socialist Europe does have much weaker civil libertarian laws though...

Contrast say the powers of the german police with American police, the basic acceptance of ID cards across Europe etc.

As hard as it may seem to believe, Europe does have fewer civil liberties than Americans.

What works for Europe does not necessarily work for those of us in North America...

[Charles RB]

Biden did appear stunned, however, when informed by Moran that Virginia GOP chairman Jeffrey M. Frederick has told Republican canvassers to suggest to voters that Barack Obama and Osama bin Laden are connected because "both have friends that bombed the Pentagon."

I just found the article on that. (http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,1849422,00.html)

What the FUCK.

[K-DoG7p7]

Er, socialist Europe does have much weaker civil libertarian laws though...
I would like to challenge that... if you could explain what that is..

Contrast say the powers of the german police with American police, the basic acceptance of ID cards across Europe etc.
Uhhm.. explain

As hard as it may seem to believe, Europe does have fewer civil liberties than Americans.

Not really. in fact is quote the opposite..

Ok so you guys have like 0 Gun laws.. but you also have the highest percentage of gun crimes IN THE WOLD!


I challenge you to bring me examples..

[AllisterH]

German police are allowed to arrest you without cause for 24 hours. The police generally have stronger arrest powers such as not needing the equivalent of miranda rights (at least it's not like japan where the police can hold you ex-communicado for 3 DAYS!!!)

Many of the European countries do have National IDs

Hate Speech laws in Germany for example.

Many french cities use camera out in public (and now even England is starting to use them...)

National service was once much more common among European countries.

I'm not stating that Europe is anything like Soviet Russia, but compared to the rather strong ACLU that the US has, Europe is more "big brother" than the US.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I'm sorry, nothing from MADTV has ever been or ever will be funny.

You say that like its a proven fact. The thing is for a bunch of years MadTV had some good players , good funny shit and did a very fun job mocking politics. The last 2 seasons where they changed to a theatre and older stars departed have hurt the show. But back in its day with Spears,Sasso and company....the show smoked SNL.

[Charles RB]

And, oh yeah, that's another thing... It's not like we don't consider almost all of the European countries our ALLIES!


Except, according to McCain, Spain.

Which is just retarded.


Contrast say the powers of the german police with American police

4thpip, how much power does the German police have? (AFAIK they don't bear arms)

EDIT: Some of their hate speech laws date back to the aftermath of that little thing called the Third Reich, and I bet America didn't give a shit about them when they were brought in.

[kingdom2000]

Not surprised.
Harris came off looking pretty bad in that film.

True and yet it seemed accurate if you compare it to her press conferences and the like. The woman nearly makes Palin look like a genius.

[kingdom2000]

And Obama has successfully played McCain like a bass fiddle....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20081014/pl_politico/14564

Quotable: "I was astonished to hear him say that he was surprised that I didn’t have the guts” to bring up Ayers, McCain said on KMOX, a St. Louis radio station.

“I think he is probably ensured that it will come up this time.”


Uh, hey, Johnny-boy, that's what Obama wants! :biggrin:

I don't see McCain mentioning it at the debate. I don't see how he wins doing it. He makes some vague reference to Ayers and that opens the door for Obama to come back with Keating, a $500 billion bailout of banks, etc. Which is going to resonate more with voters right now - blown up buildings or a banking fiasco that is costing taxpayers billions considering the current circumstances?

The move works at stump speeches because there is no one to counter them and they are preaching to the choir but doing it at a debate and later in the spin room etc is where the GOP has no ability to control the discussion is a different matter entirely. Let's put this way, if he does mention it, you know he knows that he is losing the debate and is desperate. Desperation isn't particularily Presidential.

[AllisterH]

4thpip, how much power does the German police have? (AFAIK they don't bear arms)

EDIT: Some of their hate speech laws date back to the aftermath of that little thing called the Third Reich, and I bet America didn't give a shit about them when they were brought in.

True, it kind of makes sense that Germany has more stringent hate speech laws.

As for the rest, I don't see America becoming like Europe. In fact, this is more and more unlikely given the relative increase in minorities in North America.

Much easier to have a social network when the majority of the population is across a smaller area AND also shares the same backhround.

[Charles RB]

As for the rest, I don't see America becoming like Europe. In fact, this is more and more unlikely given the relative increase in minorities in North America.

We have minorities in Europe.

We also have the majorities of Europe travelling to other parts of Europe wherein they become a minority group in that country.

(Fun fact - Germany now, IIRC, has one of the highest Jewish populations in the European Union IN YOUR FACE HITLER.)

[K-DoG7p7]

We have minorities in Europe.

We also have the majorities of Europe travelling to other parts of Europe wherein they become a minority group in that country.

(Fun fact - Germany now, IIRC, has one of the highest Jewish populations in the European Union IN YOUR FACE HITLER.)

Also the highest % of Turks..
they are like EVERYWHERE in Germany.. and that's why Germany always give Turkey 12 points in Eurovision.. :P

[akumasan]

I Just wanted to add this

"It's just a handful of people that run everything, and that's provable.... I have this feeling that whoever's elected president, like Clinton was, no matter what promises you make on the campaign trail - blah, blah, blah - when you win, you go into this smoky room with the twelve industrialist, capitalist scumfucks that got you in there, and this little screen comes down... and it's a shot of the Kennedy assassination from an angle you've never seen before, which looks suspiciously off the grassy knoll.... And then the screen comes up, the lights come on, and they say to the new president, 'Any questions?'"

-Bill Hicks-

[K-DoG7p7]

German police are allowed to arrest you without cause for 24 hours. The police generally have stronger arrest powers such as not needing the equivalent of miranda rights (at least it's not like japan where the police can hold you ex-communicado for 3 DAYS!!!)

A lot of that stems from the cold war actually..

Many of the European countries do have National IDs
but not mandatory ANYWHERE hell you dont even need a passport while traveling withing western Europe

Hate Speech laws in Germany for example.
its harsh now.. but can you blame them?

Many french cities use camera out in public (and now even England is starting to use them...)

wont really argue on that point.. but then again.. CCTV cameras do not spy on people in Private like phonetapps on EVERYONE


I'm not stating that Europe is anything like Soviet Russia, but compared to the rather strong ACLU that the US has, Europe is more "big brother" than the US.
in a way yes.. but like i said.. cameras and shitt are only in public.. but if I call an american and say bomb on the phone I wont be allowed to enter the country..

[Stressfactor]

True, it kind of makes sense that Germany has more stringent hate speech laws.

As for the rest, I don't see America becoming like Europe. In fact, this is more and more unlikely given the relative increase in minorities in North America.

Much easier to have a social network when the majority of the population is across a smaller area AND also shares the same backhround.

The one problem with your examples is that they all relate to CIVIL LIBERTIES and, with the exception of Gun Control Laws, the U.S. Democratic party is not likely to expand Police powers -- in fact, they are more likely to do the opposite. The Democratic Party has, with the exception of hate speech, been far more open about providing equal treatment and opportunity under the law.

No, what the Republican adherents are complaining about with their "Socialism" is Europe's more wide-ranging health care, support of gays and lesbians with legalized gay marriage in many countries and gay life partners being given things like recognized cross-parental rights and health care coverage.. THAT'S what they mean by "socialism". That and tax supported public programs...

And if you want to talk about Civil Liberties as things stand... Do the terms "Extrodinary Rendition, Detainee, Unlwaful Enemy Combatant, the Patriot Act and Warrentless Wire Tapping" hold any meaning for you? Bush has been slowly and quietly stripping away American civil liberties for some time now.

And, for the record, I didn't say the U.S. should adopt ALL of the "socialist" policies of Europe... merely SOME of them. For example, I don't see WHY gay partners cannot automatically have all parental rights when it comes to their children. I don't see why LEGALLY MARRIED OR UNIFIED gay couples should not be able to get spousal health care coverage.

[Michael P]

I Just wanted to add this

"It's just a handful of people that run everything, and that's provable.... I have this feeling that whoever's elected president, like Clinton was, no matter what promises you make on the campaign trail - blah, blah, blah - when you win, you go into this smoky room with the twelve industrialist, capitalist scumfucks that got you in there, and this little screen comes down... and it's a shot of the Kennedy assassination from an angle you've never seen before, which looks suspiciously off the grassy knoll.... And then the screen comes up, the lights come on, and they say to the new president, 'Any questions?'"

-Bill Hicks-

"Just what my agenda is!"

[king mob]

German police are allowed to arrest you without cause for 24 hours. The police generally have stronger arrest powers such as not needing the equivalent of miranda rights (at least it's not like japan where the police can hold you ex-communicado for 3 DAYS!!!)

It's true that in parts of Europe, here in the UK for example, there are ridiculous police powers for detentaining suspects without charge. It's rubbish but as pointed out, the last 8 years have seen the US slip into losing it's own rights.

Many of the European countries do have National IDs

We all carry ID of some shape or form but the propsed UK ID card is a travesty of civil liberties because it simply won't work.
Many french cities use camera out in public (and now even England is starting to use them...)

We've had a huge amount of CCTV in the UK for years & the problem is that although we have far too many cameras, it's proven to be a vital tool in fighting crime. We need to scale them back but I can't see the police wanting to have them abolished completely.

National service was once much more common among European countries.

And? It still is in some countries but seeing as Europe probably won't turn into a battleground for the Russians & Americans it's becoming less common.

I'm not stating that Europe is anything like Soviet Russia, but compared to the rather strong ACLU that the US has, Europe is more "big brother" than the US.

You're throwing all European countries in the same boat & that's missing the point as there's European countries that have stronger civil liberties than others in Europe or the US.
The prolem is that there's some in the US who point at Europe and use it as a bogeyman when the reality is that it's just trying to detract from the complete mess American civil liberties are in after 8 years of Bush.

[king mob]

A lot of that stems from the cold war actually..
but not mandatory ANYWHERE hell you dont even need a passport while traveling withing western Europe

You do need a passport to travel within the EU, it's a visa you won't need.

[Buzz Dixon]

Especially when there's so much on the record TO judge and show McCain's true self. This is like going after Obama for doing pot and cocaine, as admitted in his own books. (And I'm really surprised the GOP hasn't gone after the coke admission, quite honestly.) They've tried. It failed.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/09/mccain-surrogate-raises-obamas-past-drug-use/

It's never the crime, it's always the cover-up. Obama fessed up early. claimed it as his own, and now they can't have it.

[Buzz Dixon]

Okay, I have a slight case of arachniphobia, so if Barack Obama can be this calm with a spider walking on him, he DESERVES to be Prez!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZv39r5cYI0

Spiders For Obama!

[KevinTBrown]

Kevin, with all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about. By the same standards, anyone who didn't get killed in combat isn't a hero. Unless you've been there, I don't think you get to judge on this one.

Especially when there's so much on the record TO judge and show McCain's true self. This is like going after Obama for doing pot and cocaine, as admitted in his own books. (And I'm really surprised the GOP hasn't gone after the coke admission, quite honestly.)

And I don't care what anyone else is doing. If you look around, there are plenty, plenty of people who get publicity and respect for their service to our country besides John McCain.

This is just a really stupid way to go after McCain.

I'm not "going after" McCain, it's just my opinion. I just don't think he and he alone should be called a hero when there were many others far worse off than he was, and they survived.

[akumasan]

And, for the record, I didn't say the U.S. should adopt ALL of the "socialist" policies of Europe... merely SOME of them. For example, I don't see WHY gay partners cannot automatically have all parental rights when it comes to their children. I don't see why LEGALLY MARRIED OR UNIFIED gay couples should not be able to get spousal health care coverage.You know the answer to this RELIGION :rolleyes:


Anyway, has anyone seen the Palin videos that is floating all over youtube?

[AllisterH]

And, for the record, I didn't say the U.S. should adopt ALL of the "socialist" policies of Europe... merely SOME of them. For example, I don't see WHY gay partners cannot automatically have all parental rights when it comes to their children. I don't see why LEGALLY MARRIED OR UNIFIED gay couples should not be able to get spousal health care coverage.

THAT actually has less to do with civil liberties than with religion. Ron Paul for example, IIRC, could care less about that...It's one of the reasons why if the Republicans can kick out their christian right wing (fat chance of that), the more libertarian wing of the party might emerge and that _IS_ an attractive plank for many unaffiliated voters.

As another poster pointed out, that's all religion. What percentage of say Swedes or Brits or Germans go to their place of worship once a week?

I don't have the figures but I'm guessing it is WAY, WAY lower than the percentage who go to church in the South. Even the so-called left leaning democratic party isn't touching gay marriage so as not just to prevent a plank to rally the opposition against them but that personally many democrats are against it.

Strange thing I once read....personally was skeptical about it, but they compared how "religious" America was (how often do you go to church, do you believe in god, do you help out in your church etc...) 30 years ago to America now, and the results have NOT Changed significantly (not even given statical errors).

[Infra-Man]

Anyway, has anyone seen the Palin videos that is floating all over youtube?

Which one?

[Eliseu Gouveia]

You do need a passport to travel within the EU, it's a visa you won't need.

Nah, IIRC you only need a passport to go to the UK.

I can go fill my gas tank in Spain or France or Germany or Italy tomorrow morning if I feel like it, I just have to bring my ID card, no passport needed.

[Black Atom]

I'm not "going after" McCain, it's just my opinion. I just don't think he and he alone should be called a hero when there were many others far worse off than he was, and they survived.

I believe most POWs are recognized as heroes. Why do you think it's only McCain?

[Major Comma]

I think Kevin is saying Other POWS suffered worse then McCain.
But i dont think his POW history should be an issue even if others suffered more then he did.
It could backfire if Obama uses it .

[Stressfactor]

I think it's more that McCain and those around him keep lauding it. I've seen other posts around -- we've all known people who served in the military during war time -- some were POW's, some were medal winners. A good family friend of mine earned a medal for valor in the Pacific Theatre during WW II, one of my uncle's by marriage had a Purple Heart because he took shrapnel to the stomach at the Battle of the Bulge.

In both cases NEITHER man talked much about their military service. When they did it was always "no big deal" -- the considered it doing their duty nothing more nothing less and if anyone had called them a hero they would have been the first to deny it and point to someone else as a "hero".

For McCain and the people around him they wave aroud his POW status as if it were a "Get Out of Jail Free" card. "How many houses DO you own Senator McCain?" "Well, don't you know, when I was a POW I didn't HAVE a house... blah, blah, blah..." "What about your experience with the Keating Five Senator McCain?" "Blah, blah, blah POW! blah, blah, blah..."

It is a combination excuse for everything, distraction for the media, shield from criticism and yet also badge of honor that supposedly tells people that he's tough, he's a fighter, he was a WARRIOR DAMNIT! And yet, there are men out there who were POW's who dealt with or are still dealing with the fall-out from that and they don't wave their status around like it's a big deal. There are war heroes in civilian life who do NOT wear their medals on their jackets every day. They don't bring up their honors in every single conversation.

I do not denigrate his service. I do not put down his exceriences as a POW I can't even imagine how horrible it must have been. But the man has GOT to stop trotting it out at every drop of the hat! The more he trots it out and waves it around the more it loses it's significance for me.

[Charles RB]

You know the answer to this RELIGION :rolleyes:

Predominantly-Catholic Spain would disagree there.

[Charles RB]

You do need a passport to travel within the EU

Except for the Shengen Agreement nations (I may have spelt that wrong).

[FalconX2000]

Corrina, as far as POWs are concerned, he had it "easy". He, unlike many, many others, did eventually get medical treatment. Yeah, they tried to use him as a propoganda device and he didn't play. Yeah, his arms were broken and they healed badly. Yeah, he walks with a limp. Yeah, he survived. I respect his duty to his country. Nothing more, nothing less.

I just hate knowing that he's being called a hero when others in his POW camp are blatantly ignored or being treated as if they don't exist. THOSE are the stories I'd like to hear/read. Funny that we haven't....... Was he the only one there?


OOC: Well what o you expect?:confused: Not all those POWs are spending millions of dollars every month advertising it for the purpose of being voted into the most powerful position on Earth.


Okay, I have a slight case of arachniphobia, so if Barack Obama can be this calm with a spider walking on him, he DESERVES to be Prez!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZv39r5cYI0

Spiders For Obama!

Now that is cool under fire.:biggrin: He didn't even sound mildly alarmed when he asked if the spider was a big one.

[KevinTBrown]

I think it's more that McCain and those around him keep lauding it. I've seen other posts around -- we've all known people who served in the military during war time -- some were POW's, some were medal winners. A good family friend of mine earned a medal for valor in the Pacific Theatre during WW II, one of my uncle's by marriage had a Purple Heart because he took shrapnel to the stomach at the Battle of the Bulge.

In both cases NEITHER man talked much about their military service. When they did it was always "no big deal" -- the considered it doing their duty nothing more nothing less and if anyone had called them a hero they would have been the first to deny it and point to someone else as a "hero".

For McCain and the people around him they wave aroud his POW status as if it were a "Get Out of Jail Free" card. "How many houses DO you own Senator McCain?" "Well, don't you know, when I was a POW I didn't HAVE a house... blah, blah, blah..." "What about your experience with the Keating Five Senator McCain?" "Blah, blah, blah POW! blah, blah, blah..."

It is a combination excuse for everything, distraction for the media, shield from criticism and yet also badge of honor that supposedly tells people that he's tough, he's a fighter, he was a WARRIOR DAMNIT! And yet, there are men out there who were POW's who dealt with or are still dealing with the fall-out from that and they don't wave their status around like it's a big deal. There are war heroes in civilian life who do NOT wear their medals on their jackets every day. They don't bring up their honors in every single conversation.

I do not denigrate his service. I do not put down his exceriences as a POW I can't even imagine how horrible it must have been. But the man has GOT to stop trotting it out at every drop of the hat! The more he trots it out and waves it around the more it loses it's significance for me.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!



Have I said that I love you yet???? :redface:

Seriously, Stressfactor hits it dead on.

[KevinTBrown]

How dare he be associated with an organization such as ACORN (http://acorn.org/index.php?id=4174&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=22386&tx_ttnews[backPid]=2716&cHash=b76dc68957)!!!!!












What? You were expecting it be Obama...? :wink:

[KevinTBrown]

Damn! Preach it brudder!!!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/27057346#27057346

Here's tonight's Olbermann Special Comment: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/27057346#27188417

[mattx110]

How dare he be associated with an organization such as ACORN (http://acorn.org/index.php?id=4174&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=22386&tx_ttnews[backPid]=2716&cHash=b76dc68957)!!!!!











What? You were expecting it be Obama...? :wink:
Actually, I was expecting it to be Sonic the Hedgehog.

[K-DoG7p7]

You do need a passport to travel within the EU, it's a visa you won't need.

Not withing any of the blue nations (Green = soon part,, and pink = Nazis so its WISE! but not demanded)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Schengen_Agreement_map.svg/400px-Schengen_Agreement_map.svg.png

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Not withing any of the blue nations (Green = soon part,, and pink = Nazis so its WISE! but not demanded)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Schengen_Agreement_map.svg/400px-Schengen_Agreement_map.svg.png

Yeah, that´s pretty much it.
If you´re a citizen in any of the blue countries, you just need your ID card.


And money for tickets/gas, ´f course... . :biggrin:

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Here's tonight's Olbermann Special Comment: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/27057346#27188417

There's no way for me to explain this special comment without this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knGy_BbivgY

[the4thpip]

You do need a passport to travel within the EU, it's a visa you won't need.

No, within the Schengen treaty countries any form of ID (national ID card or drivers license) is enough. I don't need my passport to go to the Netherlands, France etc.

[Corrina]

Seriously, Stressfactor hits it dead on.

But that's not what you were saying, Kevin. You went back in and opened the POW record and had to parse who suffered what more and so on.

I agree with Stressfactor that McCain has overused and overdone his POW experience. But that doesn't mean the McCain of military service wasn't a hero and saying 'well, he suffered less & such,' especially in first saying that he got preferred medical treatment when, in reality, he has painful and long-term injuries, plus relying on a Rolling Stone article that isn't properly sourced, relies on McCain's own biography and twists those words around, and is clearly biased....is not the same thing as saying McCain's overused his POW experience.

Like Obama's drug use, McCain's already spoken about much of what he did wrong after his release. It's done and over, no point in rehashing it, the same as there's no point in rehashing Obama's experiements with coke.

Btw, the Obama ads running seem damn effective to me. They're the ones focusing on 'no middle class tax hike for those making under $250,000." Well done on his campaign's part.

[KevinTBrown]

But that's not what you were saying, Kevin. You went back in and opened the POW record and had to parse who suffered what more and so on.

I agree with Stressfactor that McCain has overused and overdone his POW experience. But that doesn't mean the McCain of military service wasn't a hero and saying 'well, he suffered less & such,' especially in first saying that he got preferred medical treatment when, in reality, he has painful and long-term injuries, plus relying on a Rolling Stone article that isn't properly sourced, relies on McCain's own biography and twists those words around, and is clearly biased....is not the same thing as saying McCain's overused his POW experience.

Like Obama's drug use, McCain's already spoken about much of what he did wrong after his release. It's done and over, no point in rehashing it, the same as there's no point in rehashing Obama's experiements with coke.

Btw, the Obama ads running seem damn effective to me. They're the ones focusing on 'no middle class tax hike for those making under $250,000." Well done on his campaign's part.

It's something he's said basically from the beginning of his campaign. Which is why it's almost laughable right now when someone tries to come in and dispute it or totally twist his plan....

[Infra-Man]

McCain claims that people at Obama rallies have called McCain a terrorist, a traitor, and have yelled out threats such as "kill him".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND9DKa8TXwk

http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/021230/182732__pinocchio_l.jpg

[FalconX2000]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/27188430#27182735

Biden's interviews are never boring.

[KevinTBrown]

McCain claims that people at Obama rallies have called McCain a terrorist, a traitor, and have yelled out threats such as "kill him".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND9DKa8TXwk

Well, there's your proof. McCain is addled brained and easily confused.

[the4thpip]

The 14 point lead for Obama might make the new CBS poll an outlier, but these more detailed numbers sure are interesting:

21 percent of voters say their opinion of McCain has changed for the worse over the last few weeks -- seven percent said it's improved. (Broken down by party identification, which is the key here, I think, 10 percent of Republicans, 28 percent of Democrats and 22 percent of independents said their opinion of McCain had changed for the worse.) On the other hand, 17 percent of respondents said their opinion of Obama has improved, compared to seven percent who said it's gotten worse.

Asked for the reason why their opinion of McCain had gotten worse, 22 percent of respondents gave Sarah Palin as their answer, 23 percent listed McCain's attacks on Obama, 10 percent cited his debate performance, 10 percent his economic policy and 10 percent gave a description of him as "erratic/unsteady."

[Charles RB]

No, within the Schengen treaty countries any form of ID (national ID card or drivers license) is enough. I don't need my passport to go to the Netherlands, France etc.

Not being from a Schengen Euro-country, I technically need mine, but in both Italy and Samos (Greek island) this year the passport people didn't seem to give a toss. They were waving people through with a minimal glance.

Then I went to America and had an uncomfortable two minutes being question by a dead-voiced Homeland Security man over why I wanted to come in.

[the4thpip]

Not being from a Schengen Euro-country, I technically need mine, but in both Italy and Samos (Greek island) this year the passport people didn't seem to give a toss. They were waving people through with a minimal glance.

Then I went to America and had an uncomfortable two minutes being question by a dead-voiced Homeland Security man over why I wanted to come in.

Hey, they put me in "secondary" at George H.W. Bush airport 2 years ago. I sat next to the woman in the burka.

[the4thpip]

Remember, this is only as bad as satirizing McCain's failing campaign, according to David Frum:

Palin rallies Scranton voters; crowd member calls to 'kill' Obama


There were no incendiary outbursts from the crowd about Mr. Obama during Mrs. Palin's speech, as there have been during other recent McCain-Palin rallies.

However, someone did shout out, "Kill him!" during Republican congressional candidate Chris Hackett's remarks before Mrs. Palin took the stage.

The outburst came during a round of booing from the crowd after Mr. Hackett said Mr. Obama should come to Pennsylvania and learn what the state's values are.

http://www.scrantontimes.com/articles/2008/10/14/news/doc48f4ba8994588930223377.txt

[K-DoG7p7]

Some more Shengen facts..
WORLD STYLE!!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/EU_visa_lists.png/800px-EU_visa_lists.png
The Dark blue = EU nations (Shengen nations)
the Light Blue = None EU Shengen nations
the Green = Visa-free access to the Schengen states for 90 days
The Red = Visa required to enter the Schengen states


Sooooo... you live in say the US.. no do not need a visa for a stay that's less then 90 days.. and then you can travel throughout the blue area without ever having to show your passport.. (well.. its the only US ID that's excepted soo )

[TomStillwell]

We need more PSAs like this one.

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/df8d1f5b7d

[FalconX2000]

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/10/mccain_seeks_to.html

The most important change would occur in the Middle East, where 'decades of putting Israel's interests first' would end. Jackson believes that, although 'Zionists who have controlled American policy for decades' remain strong, they'll lose a great deal of their clout when Barack Obama enters the White House.

*facepalm*

Fuck you Jesse Jackson. Fuck you.:mad:



As for if this gets brought up in the third debate, Obama should bring up the fact that Jackson wanted to cut off his testicles just a scant few months ago.

[king mob]

Melanie Philips talks a big load of shite as usual.

The contrast between, on the one hand, the huge amount of material about Obama’s radical associations that has been published in on-line journals and in a few brave newspapers, and on the other the refusal by big media to address it and to vilify those who do, becomes more astounding by the day. The Obamaniacs are spinning the relationship between Obama and William Ayers, former of Weather Undergound Terrorism Inc, as of no consequence because this was supposedly a chance acquaintance and because the educational project they worked on, the Annenberg Challenge, was a worthy one.

Stanley Kurtz now nails that canard by showing how, through the Annenberg Challenge, Obama and Ayers channelled funds to extremist anti-American Afrocentric ‘educational’ programmes which were a carbon-copy of the world view of Pastor Jeremiah Wright, Obama’s black racist mentor who, under pressure, Obama was forced to repudiate. These programmes promoted, amongst other radical ideas, the ‘rites of passage’ philosophy which attempted to create a ‘virtually separate and intensely anti-American black social world’ in order to ‘counter the potentially detrimental effects of a Eurocentrically oriented society.’ One such teacher taught that

‘The submission to Western civilization and its most outstanding offspring, American civilization, is, in reality, surrender to white supremacy.’

Kurtz concludes:

However he may seek to deny it, all evidence points to the fact that, from his position as board chair of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, Barack Obama knowingly and persistently funded an educational project that shared the extremist and anti-American philosophy of Jeremiah Wright.

No surprise there, since back in June Kurtz pointed to evidence that Obama shared the black racism of the Trinity United Church of Christ. In this article Obama was reported as rejecting ‘integrationist assimilation’ and wanting to channel black rage more effectively into political organisation. Kurtz dug out a chapter in a 1990 book called After Alinsky: Community Organizing in Illinois in which Obama sketched out how radical black churches could be harnessed to help radicalise the black population. As Kurtz wrote:

So it would appear that Obama’s own writings solve the mystery of why he stayed at Trinity for 20 years. Obama’s long-held and decidedly audacious hope has been to spread Wright’s radical spirit by linking it to a viable, left-leaning political program, with Obama himself at the center. The revolutionizing power of a politically awakened black church is not some side issue, or merely a personal matter, but has been the signature theme of Obama’s grand political strategy.

Those few brave souls who do try to enlighten the public about all this come up against the kind of intimidation by Camp Obama charted here by Michael Barone:

Stanley Kurtz appeared on Milt Rosenberg's WGN radio program in Chicago. Mr. Kurtz had been researching Mr. Obama's relationship with unrepentant Weather Underground terrorist William Ayers in Chicago Annenberg Challenge papers in the Richard J. Daley Library in Chicago - papers that were closed off to him for some days, apparently at the behest of Obama supporters. Obama fans jammed WGN's phone lines and sent in hundreds of protest e-mails. The message was clear to anyone who would follow Mr. Rosenberg's example. We will make trouble for you if you let anyone make the case against The One.

Other Obama supporters have threatened critics with criminal prosecution. In September, St. Louis County Circuit Attorney Bob McCulloch and St. Louis City Circuit Attorney Jennifer Joyce warned citizens that they would bring criminal libel prosecutions against anyone who made statements against Mr. Obama that were ‘false.’ I had been under the impression that the Alien and Sedition Acts had gone out of existence in 1801-'02. Not so, apparently, in metropolitan St. Louis. Similarly, the Obama campaign called for a criminal investigation of the American Issues Project when it ran ads highlighting Mr. Obama's ties to Mr. Ayers.

No such threats, of course, will be made against this new book whose publication is tactfully timed for next year so as not to frighten the horses -- Race Course Against White Supremacy, by none other than William Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn.

Meanwhile, it turns out that not only did Obama do favours for convicted Chicago fraudster Tony Rezko, but as this story reports Alexi Giannoulias, who reputedly bankrolled Michael ‘Jaws’ Giorango, a Chicagoan twice convicted of bookmaking and promoting prostitution, became Illinois state treasurer last year after Obama vouched for him, and has now has pledged to raise $100,000 for Obama’s campaign.

You have to pinch yourself – a Marxisant radical who all his life has been mentored by, sat at the feet of, worshipped with, befriended, endorsed the philosophy of, funded and been in turn funded, politically promoted and supported by a nexus comprising black power anti-white racists, Jew-haters, revolutionary Marxists, unrepentant former terrorists and Chicago mobsters, is on the verge of becoming President of the United States. And apparently it’s considered impolite to say so.



http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/2293196/pinch-yourself.thtml

[Arrogantcur]

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/10/mccain_seeks_to.html



*facepalm*

Fuck you Jesse Jackson. Fuck you.:mad:



As for if this gets brought up in the third debate, Obama should bring up the fact that Jackson wanted to cut off his testicles just a scant few months ago.

You know, with all due respect, Israel shouldn't get special treatment.

I mean seriously, what would happen if any other country in the region were being attacked by a terrorist group firing rockets from another country, and the country getting fired at said "yeah, we're going to drop bombs all over the country where the rockets are coming from and hope we kill some of those terrorists. And if civilians get killed, oh well, that's just the way the cookie crumbles"? If Syria did that, do you think the U.S. would just shrug its shoulders and say "oh well, they're just defending themselves, and they have a right to"?

EDIT: And what about this? (http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=11698) Nobody should get away with that kind of thing. I don't care what country does it. It is wrong. It is inexcusable.

[Buzz Dixon]

The GOP is just beginning to realize what they're really up against:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/Voting_for_Obama_anyway.html?showall

[the4thpip]

Looks like the Republicans are giving up on Wisconsin. (http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2008/10/15/wisconsin/index.html)
No cheese for Walnuts!

http://images.inmagine.com/img/westend61/wses007/wses007091.jpg

[Infra-Man]

Looks like the Republicans are giving up on Wisconsin. (http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2008/10/15/wisconsin/index.html)

They're probably redeploying to Ohio, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and Florida.

[Briareos]

You know, with all due respect, Israel shouldn't get special treatment.

I mean seriously, what would happen if any other country in the region were being attacked by a terrorist group firing rockets from another country, and the country getting fired at said "yeah, we're going to drop bombs all over the country where the rockets are coming from and hope we kill some of those terrorists. And if civilians get killed, oh well, that's just the way the cookie crumbles"? If Syria did that, do you think the U.S. would just shrug its shoulders and say "oh well, they're just defending themselves, and they have a right to"?

EDIT: And what about this? (http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=11698) Nobody should get away with that kind of thing. I don't care what country does it. It is wrong. It is inexcusable.

I guess we were the bad guys in WW2...

[king mob]

I guess we were the bad guys in WW2...

You could try to actually react to the comment in a sensible way instead of just spouting rubbish you know.

[Briareos]

Barack Obama loses debate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDVM7ODUBn8

[Briareos]

You could try to actually react to the comment in a sensible way instead of just spouting rubbish you know.

That's what we did in WW2. Countries we fought didn't post big signs that said "Our tanks are here!" so we had bomb a area where they could be and we knew that civilians could be hurt. Israel isn't just bombing places for the heck of it. They are actively targeting places where their intellegence says that terrorists figures are. It's not their fault that terrorists hide in civilian populations.

[Arrogantcur]

I guess we were the bad guys in WW2...

Not that I care about the opinion of a troll like yourself, Briareos, but I'll respond anyway.

The Germans were trying to take over as much of the world as they could. Lebanon was not. To borrow a phrase from Obama (who borrowed it from somebody else, because I'm sure I've heard it before although I cannot remember where), the bombing of Lebanon was using a hatchet when a scalpel was required. The enemy was Hezbollah. Israel should have either gone after Hezbollah in such a way that no innocent bystanders would be harmed, or not gone after Hezbollah at all at that point in time.

John Byrne infamously said, sometime after 9/11, that maybe Britain should have responded to the IRA's declaration of war by attacking Dublin, by turning Dublin into a "smoking crater." That would have been wrong, because it would have been punishing an entire country for the actions of a group of terrorists. I do not see how the bombing of Lebanon was any more justified than the hypothetical bombing of Ireland would be.

[Michael P]

Bri, I look forward to the day when you realize that real war isn't an episode of Sonic the Hedgehog, and that a nation that's fighting a war for the right reasons can still fight that war in ways that are morally wrong.

[Briareos]

Not that I care about the opinion of a troll like yourself, Briareos, but I'll respond anyway.

The Germans were trying to take over as much of the world as they could. Lebanon was not. To borrow a phrase from Obama (who borrowed it from somebody else, because I'm sure I've heard it before although I cannot remember where), the bombing of Lebanon was using a hatchet when a scalpel was required. The enemy was Hezbollah. Israel should have either gone after Hezbollah in such a way that no innocent bystanders would be harmed, or not gone after Hezbollah at all at that point in time.

John Byrne infamously said, sometime after 9/11, that maybe Britain should have responded to the IRA's declaration of war by attacking Dublin, by turning Dublin into a "smoking crater." That would have been wrong, because it would have been punishing an entire country for the actions of a group of terrorists. I do not see how the bombing of Lebanon was any more justified than the hypothetical bombing of Ireland would be.

So how should Israel fight Hezbollah when they hide in the civilian populace which actively supports them?

[Briareos]

Bri, I look forward to the day when you realize that real war isn't an episode of Sonic the Hedgehog, and that a nation that's fighting a war for the right reasons can still fight that war in ways that are morally wrong.

I look forward to the day that wars are fought in Giant Robots!

[king mob]

John Byrne infamously said, sometime after 9/11, that maybe Britain should have responded to the IRA's declaration of war by attacking Dublin, by turning Dublin into a "smoking crater." That would have been wrong, because it would have been punishing an entire country for the actions of a group of terrorists. I do not see how the bombing of Lebanon was any more justified than the hypothetical bombing of Ireland would be.

Byrne actually said that? Bloody hell. By that thinking we should have bombed the US as well.

[Briareos]

Bri, I look forward to the day when you realize that real war isn't an episode of Sonic the Hedgehog, and that a nation that's fighting a war for the right reasons can still fight that war in ways that are morally wrong.

Seriously this isn't about "they are fighting for the right reason but in morally wrong ways" The people who complain about how Israel are saying that they are completely in the wrong and they are the problem. You see it in the whole "Zionist lobby" argument. Or the argument that conservatives and christians only support Israel for nutty religious reasons. How many times has the U.N. condemened Israel. How many times has it condemened the Palestinians?

[Michael P]

So how should Israel fight Hezbollah when they hide in the civilian populace which actively supports them?

They've got the Mossad, one of the best special forces units in the world. Maybe they should send those guys in with orders to work with the civilian authorities to apprehend known terrorists.

[Infra-Man]

Barack Obama loses debate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDVM7ODUBn8

Point one, that wasn't a debate, so I don't see how he lost anything. It was just a person asking him a question and the person didn't like his answer.

Point two, given the caller's comments, it seems like he wasn't going to vote for Obama anyway.

Point three, Obama will offer small businesses tax credits to assist with health care costs and other factors.

Point four
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/3274/2009taxbreakdownfv5.jpg

Point five, the notion that taxes are the primary thing keeping people away from wealth in this country is oversimplified, as there are a number of other factors (e.g., education, location, investments or lack thereof) that affect a household's income/portfolio.

[the4thpip]

You could try to actually react to the comment in a sensible way instead of just spouting rubbish you know.

No, he couldn't. Just look at any political post he ever made on this board. Saying that he could is purely faith-based, not rooted in science.

[Michael P]

Seriously this isn't about "they are fighting for the right reason but in morally wrong ways."

Yes, it is.

The people who complain about how Israel are saying that they are completely in the wrong and they are the problem.

Like who? Seriously, show me someone who's not a nut who says that.

You see it in the whole "Zionist lobby" argument.

Which, of course, everyone who condemns Israel for bombing civilians subscribes to.

Get a thinner brush, sport.

Or the argument that conservatives and christians only support Israel for nutty religious reasons.

A lot of them do.

How many times has the U.N. condemened Israel.

As many times as they've deserved it.

How many times has it condemned the Palestinians?

Ditto.

[Stressfactor]

Barack Obama loses debate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDVM7ODUBn8

Oh yeah "You work hard enough, you'll get ahead". BULLSHIT! I have a master's degree and I'm currently busting my butt to get a SECOND Master's degree just so I can STAY COMPETITIVE in my chosen field. I'm not being paid what I'm worth right now but the field I'm in is tight. Jobs in the field of Archives are tight and getting tighter thanks to the economic down turn. I can't just QUIT my job and waltz my way into another that pays me more money.

Joe the plumber there has NO FUCKING CLUE!

[Briareos]

They've got the Mossad, one of the best special forces units in the world. Maybe they should send those guys in with orders to work with the civilian authorities to apprehend known terrorists.

You can't be that clueless. The civilian authorities there are NEVER going to work with the Israel.

[Arrogantcur]

So how should Israel fight Hezbollah when they hide in the civilian populace which actively supports them?

Send people in covertly to find the perpetrators and assassinate them. Assassinate is an ugly word and an ugly concept, but it's a lot less ugly than bombing a whole region.

The Mossad was able to get people into Argentina to capture Adolph Eichmann and smuggle him out of the country for trial. Compared to that, what I just described would be EASY.

EDIT TO ADD: You can't be that clueless. The civilian authorities there are NEVER going to work with the Israel.

Even if that's true, the authorities in Argentina didn't help the Mossad. They had no idea that this was happening and after they found out about it, they were pissed.

Byrne actually said that? Bloody hell. By that thinking we should have bombed the US as well.

Here's the quote, from an interview with Rich Johnston:

JB:I've been thinking this since the various lunatic cells of the IRA began
loudly declaring themselves "at war" with Great Britain, imagining immediately
what woud happen if the British government said "Righty-Ho, war it is!" and
sent over the RAF to turn Dublin into a smoking crater.

Rich Johnston: They'd have killed a million innocent people and have missed the
IRA. Who organised across Eire, but were mostly active and present in Northern
Ireland. It wasn't Eire who were at war with Britain, but a terrorist
organisation who wanted Northern ireland to be part of Eire as a whole.

[CutterMike]

No, he couldn't. Just look at any political post he ever made on this board. Saying that he could is purely faith-based, not rooted in science.
Now, THAT'S comedy!

[Michael P]

Peter David on the similarities between John McCain and another senator of some repute. (http://peterdavid.malibulist.com/archives/006510.html#more)

[kingdom2000]

Point five, the notion that taxes are the primary thing keeping people away from wealth in this country is oversimplified, as there are a number of other factors (e.g., education, location, investments or lack thereof) that affect a household's income/portfolio.

I never understoond the argument that less taxes = posterity. Not why politicians sell it, but why people (not businesses) are stupid enough to buy into it. Cause if only I could count the number of times I heard "if only my taxes were less this pay period I could have payed all my bills!"

[Infra-Man]

I never understoond the argument that less taxes = posterity. Not why politicians sell it, but why people (not businesses) are stupid enough to buy into it. Cause if only I could count the number of times I heard "if only my taxes were less this pay period I could have payed all my bills!"

I think people buy into that because they see those deductions from their paychecks. Taxes are something that's necessary for the country to function, so there's no getting around them, and it's easier to blame what's taken away from someone for a lack of personal prosperity rather than other factors. Lots of things would fall apart if people didn't pay state and fed taxes. (That said, they need to fix the tax code so a total bonehead like me who lives on freelance work from various sources can actually do taxes on my own rather than going to a preparer.)

I think in some cases, people would also rather blame taxes on their inability to pay the bills rather than examine their own spending habits and curb spending. Gotta live within your means and spend and save responsibly, that's the bottom line.

[Berserk]

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/10/mccain_seeks_to.html



*facepalm*

Fuck you Jesse Jackson. Fuck you.:mad:



As for if this gets brought up in the third debate, Obama should bring up the fact that Jackson wanted to cut off his testicles just a scant few months ago.




I don't see how it's relevant. Obama doesn't have to answer for every stupid comment a Black person makes. Jesse Jackson isn't working with his campaign and he doesn't speak for Obama. In fact, like you said, he was gleefully talking about wanting to cut off Obama's balls just a few months ago when he thought he wasn't being recorded by Fox News. This whole notion that Obama would be anti-Israel is driven by the false belief that he's somehow secretly a Muslim. Obama has been campaigning for 2 years now, so anyone who doesn't know that he's a Christian either hasn't been watching television or reading newspapers in the last two years or they're lying.

[Berserk]

I think people buy into that because they see those deductions from their paychecks. Taxes are something that's necessary for the country to function, so there's no getting around them, and it's easier to blame what's taken away from someone for a lack of personal prosperity rather than other factors. Lots of things would fall apart if people didn't pay state and fed taxes. (That said, they need to fix the tax code so a total bonehead like me who lives on freelance work from various sources can actually do taxes on my own rather than going to a preparer.)

I think in some cases, people would also rather blame taxes on their inability to pay the bills rather than examine their own spending habits and curb spending. Gotta live within your means and spend and save responsibly, that's the bottom line.



For some reason, Republicans act like taxes are an evil thing and their poor supporters eat it up. Taxes fund the construction and maintenance of roads, bridges, highways, hospitals, police, firefighters, waste management workers, as well as fund countless programs that give aid to the poorer Americans including financial aid for students who want to go to college and medicare and medicade for people who aren't wealthy enough to pay for their own healthcare. The Republicans are the party of the rich, which is why they support lowering taxes. But, the Republican voters tend to be poorer than the Democratic voters so they're stupid for putting more value in religious issues like abortion and gay marriage than their own economic interests. As long as they do that, the wealthiest Americans and the fat cats in charge the Republican party will take advantage of them by promising that they'll overturn Roe v. Wade and make gay marriage unconstitutional even though they know they can't and won't try either, but it gets them enough votes to get their candidates who want to lower taxes elected.

[Paul McEnery]

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/10/mccain_seeks_to.html



*facepalm*

Fuck you Jesse Jackson. Fuck you.:mad:



As for if this gets brought up in the third debate, Obama should bring up the fact that Jackson wanted to cut off his testicles just a scant few months ago.

Except that the person who reported Jackson's remarks is a known liar. He's the same guy who said Iran was going to make the Jews wear coloured badges.

So the people you should be mad at are:

1) The lying columnist.
2) The Post for not firing him for the badge lie.
3) Other papers for uncritically repeating what he says.
4) Yourself, for doing the same.

[Grazzt]

On a lighter note, I've just discovered the art of Zina Saunders. There are some really good McCain/Palin pieces at her site here. (http://www.drawger.com/zinasaunders/) My favourite would have to be McCain as Frankenstein, with the ladies from The View as the torch wielding mob.

[Royal]

http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/political-pictures-vladimir-putin-sarah-come-back-alaska-live-sigh.jpg

[Charles RB]

Melanie Philips talks a big load of shite as usual.


She slagged off my university's Understanding Terror course earlier this year.

I wrote in pointing out the numerous factual inaccuracies in the article and got a form reply telling me to keep reading her blog.

I automatically assume from now one that if she rights something, it must be shit.

[Charles RB]

Countries we fought didn't post big signs that said "Our tanks are here!" so we had bomb a area where they could be and we knew that civilians could be hurt. Israel isn't just bombing places for the heck of it. They are actively targeting places where their intellegence says that terrorists figures are. It's not their fault that terrorists hide in civilian populations.

Actually, in World War Two the allied side deliberately targeted civilians. This is well-known and documented historical fact - we deliberately killed civilians , mainly because bombing residential areas en masse is easier than targeting specific factories w/ 1940s planes.

So based on your WW2 comparison, I have to conclude you're one of the guys who thinks Israel deliberately kills civvies.


John Byrne infamously said, sometime after 9/11, that maybe Britain should have responded to the IRA's declaration of war by attacking Dublin, by turning Dublin into a "smoking crater." That would have been wrong, because it would have been punishing an entire country for the actions of a group of terrorists.

Worse - and showing Byrne's political knowledge - it'd be the wrong fucking country we'd be hitting, since the IRA were in the UK and not the Republic of Ireland.

They had sympathisers in the Republic, but if that's reason to bomb Dublin we should've bombed New York.

PS The IRA would've had fucking huge support and made attacks every day if we'd done that. Bryne you idiot.

[Charles RB]

Oh yeah "You work hard enough, you'll get ahead". BULLSHIT!

I guess every single failed business and every single unemployed person only got that way because they didn't work hard, and nobody was ever born into massive wealth and got to stay ahead of everyone easily.

Joe the Plumber could never be wrong.

[mattx110]

How badass would it be if McCain flatly stated, "this global economic crisis obviously shows that capitalism as we practice it is massively flawed and a more marxist approach may be viable in protecting the future of America and the world"?

[Royal]

Why can't Joe the Plumber just work a coop deal with Bob the Bilder.? Maybe have a three way with Rosie the Riveteer.

[beetlebum]

I really hate the whole "wealth distribution" thing.

It's hyberbolic, and used to instill fear in the hearts and minds of the gullible.

And I'm glad that Obama acknowledged that we are living beyond our means, and taxes are a "necessary evil".

[Royal]

I know I know I know.

I know how to make lemonade. Doesn't mean I'm going to sit around dying of thirst saying "I know"

[Eliseu Gouveia]

It´s on.

McCain seems to be holding up quite well. Obame needs to wake up,

Right now.

[beetlebum]

McCain sounded shaky when he was talking about reform.

He also seems to keep hammering away.

Barack kind of reminds me of Tiziano Ferro in his duet with Laura Pausini (Non Me Lo Spiegare).

In other words? He seems to be holding back.

And he needs to stop doing that.

[beetlebum]

Oh, puh leazze, McCain.

You haven't "repudiated" all of the attacks against Obama. :rolleyes:

Honest campaign, my arse.....

[LtMarvel]

Hell, McCain blamed the crisis on Fannie and Freddie when we know that's not true.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

McCain sounded shaky when he was talking about reform.

He also seems to keep hammering away.

Barack kind of reminds me of Tiziano Ferro in his duet with Laura Pausini (Non Me Lo Spiegare).

In other words? He seems to be holding back.

And he needs to stop doing that.

That´s how I feel, he seems erratic tonight, a bit hesitating, feels like a student who didn´t do his homework.

Mc Cain also seems to be getting the last word on every issue, what´s up with that?

[beetlebum]

That´s how I feel, he seems erratic tonight, a bit hesitating, feels like a student who didn´t do his homework.

Mc Cain also seems to be getting the last word on every issue, what´s up with that?

Barack has never been a strong debater.

I think he may be holding back to appear as the 'nicer candidate'; he may be trying to appear this way in order to capitalize on the perception that the Republicans have been running the more "negative" campaign.

I just can't believe that Barack is just letting McCain but in.

[kingdom2000]

Obama is losing big time. The high road doesn't work. Counter attacks with attacks. Instead Obama is constantly on the defensive and looking weak as a result.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

McCain keeps getting the last word on everything. What is this moderator doing?

What is Barack doing, now that I mention it....

[Royal]

He's coasting the third round. He knows that he won the last two rounds with the judges so now he's play an aggressive defense. Stuffing the shoot, keeping distance with his jab and checking the kicks. If he does get the opportunity for the mount, he go for it and keep McCain pinned up in the cage while hitting rabbit punches, just racking up points.

McCain's totally fustrated and is throwing everything at Obama. Not only is that exsausting resources, it's making him make mistakes.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Obama is not doing good in this debate...

But all McCain has proven to me is that the guy from 2000 must have been someone else... This guy is a bucket load of crap.

[beetlebum]

Despite McCain's stuttering, and fumbling over words, he has been more consistent in hammering his message home.

As for Obama, my suspicions about him wanting to be a nice guy were confirmed.

I'm glad that Obama cleared up the misconceptions about Ayers, and the articles linking Palin and McCain to segregation.

And okay, McCain does have a point that single handedley reforming NAFTA was a ridiculous statement.

I like Obama's views on foreign relations more, but that make him look weak.

Also, I would like to see domestic production expanded, and to reduce our dependency on other countries.

[Royal]

I don't see yayo, John.

I see heroin. Lots of it.

[beetlebum]

Both Obama and McCain speak about the problems of trade with Columbia and South Korea, yet they fail to mention that the US is hurting other countries with our own tariffs.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-10/07/content_10160632.htm

http://allafrica.com/stories/200703140267.html

Also, when it comes to Columbia, we should stop funding the War On Drugs and just invest in their agriculture sector, and give the people alternatives to to the drug trade. The best way to combat the illegal trade is by lifting people out of poverty.

And Geez, McCain really hammered Obama on Columbia, this despite the fact that his "Free Trade Is The Right Thing To Do!" may be factually wrong.

[DrewEdwards]

Nether Obama nor McCain has blown me away in any of the debates. But then we always get a different view of who won after the fact. So all bets are off, even though it seems like McCain is winning.

[Royal]

Can't have fitness programs if you can't afford fruits and veggies.

[beetlebum]

OH MY EFFING GOD, STOP USING THE JOE THE PLUMBER LINE!!!111

Christ, almighty; the phrase is tonight's "maverick". :rolleyes:

Also, Obama's plan is better, and more workable than McCain's.

And I have to give Barack credit for the way he's elucidating on it.

[Royal]

Get it over with and suck Joe's cock, McCain!

[Kid Kamikaze10]

My mom works at an insurance company...

She's thinks McCain is being an idiot when it comes to health insurance... She's normally not that blatant about this type of stuff.

[beetlebum]

"Senator Government?"

Freudian slip. :tongue:

Obama did a better job of explaining his plan, and I can't believe that seven house owning McCain invoked class warfare during his explanation of his health care plan.

[beetlebum]

I'll give McCain credit for his emphasis on state's rights.

But:

"I don't know how you align yourself with the extreme abortion movement in America?"

Look who's talking.

[KevinTBrown]

By the way, while you may think McCain is winning, I'm seeing it the other way. If ANYONE has watching ANYTHING the past 2 weeks, they know McCain is lying his ass off about repudiating people making comments. McCain has also had a few "WTF?" looks on his face when Obama has hammered home and commented that things have been proven wrong from past debates, like the fine for not buying insurance or the vote to increase taxes for those who make less than $42,000.

It's not going to be a resounding win for Obama, but a win nonetheless.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Nah, I didn´t like this debate at all.

Obama was hesitant, McCain got the last word on every issue and Obama didn´t even bother responding to some of McCain´s outright lies.

[beetlebum]

I've gotta say......

Though I like Obama's $4,000 dollar tax credit (lord knows how I need it), and his emphasis on getting the federal government more involved in education, I like McCain's view on vouchers.

Anyways, right now, giving their final statements, they sound like lawyers at a trial trying to win our hearts and minds (and utilizing lotsa schmaltz in order to do so.)

[beetlebum]

Mark Shields said it best when he said that Obama had an "eerie cool" to him. And that he did.

He also brought up a good point when he said that " (Obama) can get people excited at rallies, but what excites him?"

But I liked David Brooks analysis; "People were looking for demeanor", and people would be more comfortable with someone with the countenance of Obama, rather than McCain.

[Major Comma]

Is anybody here still UNDECIDED?

[Corrina]

Mark Shields said it best when he said that Obama had an "eerie cool" to him. And that he did.

He also brought up a good point when he said that " (Obama) can get people excited at rallies, but what excites him?"

But I liked David Brooks analysis; "People were looking for demeanor", and people would be more comfortable with someone with the countenance of Obama, rather than McCain.

All Obama ever needed to do was appear presidential over these debates, prove he's the guy best in charge when the fur starts flying. Well, at a minimum. Instead, he's not only proven that, he's proven that he knows what he is talking about. I thought his pass on Sarah Palin was very smart.

Plus, there's the angry black man factor--he's got to be conscious of that, unfortunately, which explains the holding back.

I keep looking at McCain being cranky and thinking "who want to live with this guy for four years?" McCain scored a point about not being Bush, yes. But I also thought his answer on judges made his base very, very unhappy.

I don't think anyone changed anyone's mind at this point.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

I don't want to sound mean or anything...

But it's like some of those undecided voters that they these news stations keep bringing in either have very selective hearing, or just plain haven't been watching these debates.

Many of the questions that they have been looking to be answered already have either in this debate or others. Just go online and watch/read them.

[KevinTBrown]

Is anybody here still UNDECIDED?

Yes, I work with 2 who are still undecided..... BOTH are former (still?) Hillary supporters.







And before anyone asks: One's male, one's female.

[Major Comma]

Kevin ,
what do you say to your co workers?
are they afraid Obama will raise taxes ?Is it all the Ayers and Wright stuff?
Do they like Sarah Palin?
Do they like McCain personally?
I am just curious as to what is driving the undecided voters at this time.

[Infra-Man]

I'm scoring this as an Obama win on demeanor since he basically let McCain throw whatever he got and dealt with it. McCain came across as desperate and frustrated and pulled out all the cards he had save for the Rev Wright card (if he plays that, you know he's got nothing left).

Obama could have stuck it to him more, yeah, but he just played it safe instead of going for the jugular--plays into the perception that he's the candidate that wants to talk about issues rather than play games.

[Major Comma]

I was watching one of those focus group reviews.
Obama scored highest when he said he was going to spend the next 3 weeks talking about the Economy and health care.

[kingdom2000]

By the way, while you may think McCain is winning, I'm seeing it the other way. If ANYONE has watching ANYTHING the past 2 weeks, they know McCain is lying his ass off about repudiating people making comments. McCain has also had a few "WTF?" looks on his face when Obama has hammered home and commented that things have been proven wrong from past debates, like the fine for not buying insurance or the vote to increase taxes for those who make less than $42,000.

It's not going to be a resounding win for Obama, but a win nonetheless.

oh the lie note, 538.com noted that anytime McCain tells a lie, his tell his he juts out his tongue. Just something to note in replays.

[Berserk]

Is it just me, or did John McCain look like a vampire whenever they showed him while Obama was speaking? He was very pale and creepy looking. In terms of who looked and behaved more presidential, Obama wins hands down. McCain looks like he's half dead.

[kingdom2000]

Yes, I work with 2 who are still undecided..... BOTH are former (still?) Hillary supporters. And before anyone asks: One's male, one's female. [/SIZE]

At this point, if someone is undecided, frankly they are retarded. I don't care what party they historically are for or not. After TWO years of campaigns, more information on the internet then any one person should ever want to know, there really isn't any excuse at this point to go "ummm I just can't decide!".

If they are not retarded then they have made up their mind and simply looking for some random justification for their choice. Considering the many that have made the choice on nothing less then a middle name, the justification isn't needed.

[Infra-Man]

Is it just me, or did John McCain look like a vampire whenever they showed him while Obama was speaking? He was very pale and creepy looking. In terms of who looked and behaved more presidential, Obama wins hands down. McCain looks like he's half dead.

Ever see Kane from Poltergeist II?
http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo172/hvigilla/rainkane2.jpg

[Berserk]

Ever see Kane from Poltergeist II?
http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo172/hvigilla/rainkane2.jpg



Nope, but he looks like a thinner version of McCain.

[TomStillwell]

My favorite part of the debate?

McCain thinking he had a big hit to score on Obama with his Joe the Plumber crap and Obama instead leaving McCain dumbstruck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HH0gXxI070

[LtMarvel]

For what's it worth, fact checkers have determinied that Joe will do better under Obama's plan...

[Berserk]

My favorite part of the debate?

McCain thinking he had a big hit to score on Obama with his Joe the Plumber crap and Obama instead leaving McCain dumbstruck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HH0gXxI070



LOL! You could tell he didn't expect Obama to say that or else he wouldn't have had such a stupid reaction.

[The Mutt]

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u51/The_Mutt_pics/debating.jpg

[Nick Soapdish]

I don't want to sound mean or anything...

But it's like some of those undecided voters that they these news stations keep bringing in either have very selective hearing, or just plain haven't been watching these debates.

Many of the questions that they have been looking to be answered already have either in this debate or others. Just go online and watch/read them.

The Daily Show had a funny, but insulting sketch on the undecideds.

I suspect that a lot of the undecideds haven't watched the debates or haven't believed the candidates at the debates. So a lot of what they're going off of is the soundbites and the candidates' positions as filtered through the media and commercials (as opposed to how the candidate spins it themselves).

They'll probably just go with their gut when they go to the polls.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

My favorite part of the debate?

McCain thinking he had a big hit to score on Obama with his Joe the Plumber crap and Obama instead leaving McCain dumbstruck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HH0gXxI070


LOL

McCain did a Seto Kaiba!

[Kyuubi]

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u51/The_Mutt_pics/debating.jpg

Obama: I'm sorry, did I break your concentration? I didn't mean to do that. Please, continue, you were saying something about best intentions. What's the matter? Oh, you were finished. Well then, allow me to retort. What does the American Public look like?
McCain: What?
Obama: What country are you from?
McCain: What?
Obama: What ain't no country I ever heard of. They speak English in What?
McCain: What?
Obama: English, motherfucker, do you speak it?
McCain: Yes.
Obama: Then you know what I'm sayin'!
McCain: Yes.
Obama: Describe what the American Public looks like!
McCain: What?
Obama: Say what again. Say what again, motherfucker, say what one more Goddamn time!

[Crowley]

Obama: I'm sorry, did I break your concentration? I didn't mean to do that. Please, continue, you were saying something about best intentions. What's the matter? Oh, you were finished. Well then, allow me to retort. What does the American Public look like?
McCain: What?
Obama: What country are you from?
McCain: What?
Obama: What ain't no country I ever heard of. They speak English in What?
McCain: What?
Obama: English, motherfucker, do you speak it?
McCain: Yes.
Obama: Then you know what I'm sayin'!
McCain: Yes.
Obama: Describe what the American Public looks like!
McCain: What?
Obama: Say what again. Say what again, motherfucker, say what one more Goddamn time!

http://bp0.blogger.com/_01nIg59Y3T4/RrihBglQQpI/AAAAAAAAAxQ/bmjFEPXAU7g/s400/golf+clap.jpg

[the4thpip]

I really hate the whole "wealth distribution" thing.

It's hyberbolic, and used to instill fear in the hearts and minds of the gullible.

And I'm glad that Obama acknowledged that we are living beyond our means, and taxes are a "necessary evil".

A German artist did a great parody campaign poster in the 70s.

http://www.artnet.de/Images/magazine/features/quest/quest03-20-08-8.jpg

It says: German workers! The Social Democratic Party wants to take away your mansions in Switzerland!

[Paul McEnery]

I made it an hour into watching the debate on youtube before I wanted to reach through the screen and punch McCain.

I could cope with him lying about free trade, about exploiting Columbian workers, about Obama's tax plan, all the rest of it.

But when he started trying to make me pay MORE for my healthcare and tell me it's BETTER for me that way -- oh hell, next time I've got a burst appendix, take advantage of better health costs out in Wyoming and fly out there why don't I? -- that's it.

Fuck you John McCain. May your whole family lose everything they have, and may you die a long agonizing death in the gutter.

[Karl J Barnes]

I made it an hour into watching the debate on youtube before I wanted to reach through the screen and punch McCain.

I could cope with him lying about free trade, about exploiting Columbian workers, about Obama's tax plan, all the rest of it.

But when he started trying to make me pay MORE for my healthcare and tell me it's BETTER for me that way -- oh hell, next time I've got a burst appendix, take advantage of better health costs out in Wyoming and fly out there why don't I? -- that's it.

Fuck you John McCain. May your whole family lose everything they have, and may you die a long agonizing death in the gutter.

Your a better man than I. I came in late ,but could only watch from the Health care/taxes part of the debate. I just couldn't believe that McCain could say the things he said with a straight face. I just had to turn the channel and watch something else.

[FalconX2000]

You know, with all due respect, Israel shouldn't get special treatment.

I mean seriously, what would happen if any other country in the region were being attacked by a terrorist group firing rockets from another country, and the country getting fired at said "yeah, we're going to drop bombs all over the country where the rockets are coming from and hope we kill some of those terrorists. And if civilians get killed, oh well, that's just the way the cookie crumbles"? If Syria did that, do you think the U.S. would just shrug its shoulders and say "oh well, they're just defending themselves, and they have a right to"?

EDIT: And what about this? (http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=11698) Nobody should get away with that kind of thing. I don't care what country does it. It is wrong. It is inexcusable.

Regardless of whether Israel should or should not be given special treatment, to undercut Obama's position like that is freakin stupidly horrible.

We are high info voters (or in my case, high info watcher). Lots of people are not. If the economy wasn't the way it currently is this could have been explosive.

I guess we were the bad guys in WW2...

America may have been the 'hero' side, but it wasn't saintly either. It rounded up Asian and German Americans, holding them inside containment camps. Just because of their ethnicity. Asian Americans could 'prove' their loyalty to country by volunteering for special troop contingents in the Pacific front.

[FalconX2000]

I guess every single failed business and every single unemployed person only got that way because they didn't work hard, and nobody was ever born into massive wealth and got to stay ahead of everyone easily.

Joe the Plumber could never be wrong.

Not to mention that, from what I've heard from my dad, plumbing is a job that pays damn well. It's a very dirty job, but because nobody wants to get into that muck the guy who is willing to gets a fat pay check.

[the4thpip]

http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/rush-limbaugh-says-blacks-are-angry-and

Rush Limbaugh Says Angry Blacks Are In 30 Year Plot To Train Black Children as Militants

[Corrina]

I made it an hour into watching the debate on youtube before I wanted to reach through the screen and punch McCain.

I could cope with him lying about free trade, about exploiting Columbian workers, about Obama's tax plan, all the rest of it.

But when he started trying to make me pay MORE for my healthcare and tell me it's BETTER for me that way -- oh hell, next time I've got a burst appendix, take advantage of better health costs out in Wyoming and fly out there why don't I? -- that's it.


Anyone paying for health care right now, especially families, can do the math easy on the health care plan.

We pay $13,000 a year for ours, before taxes. Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Pretty good stuff save for the out of network deductible. (Any good health care right now has the high deductible. If you want specialists, you're somewhat screwed.)

And no one's mentioned dental care, either.

Next to that, a $5,000 tax credit is squat. And you're going to tax me on it?? WTF kind of health care plan is that?

[mattx110]

http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/rush-limbaugh-says-blacks-are-angry-and

Rush Limbaugh Says Angry Blacks Are In 30 Year Plot To Train Black Children as Militants
I so wish that was true.

Given the 200 year plot to make sure they had no rights of any reasonable nature.

[AaronJ]

I made it an hour into watching the debate on youtube before I wanted to reach through the screen and punch McCain.

I could cope with him lying about free trade, about exploiting Columbian workers, about Obama's tax plan, all the rest of it.

But when he started trying to make me pay MORE for my healthcare and tell me it's BETTER for me that way -- oh hell, next time I've got a burst appendix, take advantage of better health costs out in Wyoming and fly out there why don't I? -- that's it.

Fuck you John McCain. May your whole family lose everything they have, and may you die a long agonizing death in the gutter.

The constant lying is what gets me. It really is. I understand that people will have different opinions and views than I.

But when someone goes out there, rolls his eyes, smirks, and then LIES almost every time he opens his mouth, it drives me fucking nuts.

And somehow our "debates" are just that: each person can say whatever he wants, and never be questioned on his actual answers. Why? WHY?!

[KevinTBrown]

My wife and I were laughing the entire time McCain tried to dance around the Ayers question. Never once did he actually confront Obama over it, though he did want to know more. All that segment did is make him look weak. He's willing to make outlandish comments elsewhere, but McCain's a chicken when it comes to direct confrontation.

[AaronJ]

My wife and I were laughing the entire time McCain tried to dance around the Ayers question. Never once did he actually confront Obama over it, though he did want to know more. All that segment did is make him look weak. He's willing to make outlandish comments elsewhere, but McCain's a chicken when it comes to direct confrontation.

"Palling around with terrorists...."

Uh-huh.

[4thHorseman]

Ugh, it's the day after and although people are saying Obama pretty much won this debate, all they keep talking about is the same thing.

McCain: "I'm not President Bush. If you wanted to run against President Bush, you should have ran four years ago".

Ugh. Just ugh

[Infra-Man]

The funny faces of John McCain at the end of last night's debate:
http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo172/hvigilla/n9104676_38374631_3473.jpg
http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo172/hvigilla/r3518017025.jpg
http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo172/hvigilla/2yzhchw.jpg

[Infra-Man]

More interviews with scary, ignorant people...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRqcfqiXCX0

[the4thpip]

The funny faces of John McCain at the end of last night's debate:
http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo172/hvigilla/n9104676_38374631_3473.jpg
http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo172/hvigilla/r3518017025.jpg
http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo172/hvigilla/2yzhchw.jpg

The fuck? Are those for real?

[Infra-Man]

The fuck? Are those for real?

Yup. And here's a second angle of the first one:
http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo172/hvigilla/mccaintongue.jpg

[4thHorseman]

Wow...

Is there ANY explanation for those faces?

[BnL]

Wow...

Is there ANY explanation for those faces?

Well, the Popeye-face one is a common facial tic of McCain's.

[Corrina]

Yes. At the end of the debate, McCain was going to go around the desk the same way as Obama but he would have crossed in front of some television equipment, so the moderator directed him to turn around. McCain did that funny little movement to cover up going the wrong way.

In still photos, it looked silly. It kinda looked silly live, too, but he was just making a joke about headed the wrong way.

[The Mutt]

Heh. When I saw that I knew the screencaps would make poor John look soooo bad. I almost felt sorry for him. It was a "Bush tries to open the locked door" moment.

Politicians should never, ever attempt comedy. They are all just so bad at it.

[AaronJ]

Politicians should never, ever attempt comedy. They are all just so bad at it.

I don't know. Churchill was pretty damned funny. :)

But yeah, I know what you mean.

[Infra-Man]

Guess who doesn't make more than $250k a year.

Joe the plumber.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/10/16/politics/horserace/entry4525242.shtml?FARKnr

COURIC: Well, he supposedly will raise taxes only on people who make over $250,000 a year. Would you be in that category?

WURZELBACHER: Not right now at presently, but, you know, question, so he's going to do that now for people who make $250,000 a year. When's he going to decide that $100,000 is too much, you know? I mean, you're on a slippery slope here. You vote on somebody who decides that $250,000 and you're rich? And $100,000 and you're rich? I mean, where does it end? You know, that's - people got to ask that question.

COURIC: Could you just, Joe, explain quickly, and then we'll let you go, how you met both of the candidates?

WURZELBACHER: I've yet to meet John McCain. Obama came to my neighborhood and my son and I were outside tossing the football, and all of a sudden he showed up, and there went our football tossing for a while. And, you know, neighbors were outside asking him questions, and I didn't think they were asking him tough enough questions, so I thought, you know, I'll go over there. You know, I've always wanted to ask one of these guys a question and really corner them and get them to answer a question of--for once instead of tap dancing around it. And unfortunately I asked the question but I still got a tap dance. Do you - almost as good as Sammy Davis Jr.


EDIT:
Guess who's apparently not registered to vote.

Joe the plumber

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/The_Joe_file.html

EDIT EDIT:
Okay, he is registered to vote. Here's the update

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/Joes_registration.html?showall

Joe Wurzelbacher doesn't immediately turn up in the Ohio voter registration database, leading to some speculation last night that he's not registered to vote.

But the Toledo Blade reports that he appears to be a registered Republican, and a primary voter at that:

"Linda Howe, executive director of the Lucas County Board of Elections, said a Samuel Joseph Worzelbacher, whose address and age match Joe the Plumber’s, registered in Lucas County on Sept. 10, 1992. He voted in his first primary on March 4, 2008, registering as a Republican.

"Ms. Howe said that the name may be misspelled in the database."

[4thHorseman]

Guess who doesn't make more than $250k a year.

Joe the plumber.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/10/16/politics/horserace/entry4525242.shtml?FARKnr




EDIT:
Guess who's apparently not registered to vote.

Joe the plumber

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/The_Joe_file.html

Well, Joe the Plumber is officially an idiot.

[the4thpip]

Guess who doesn't make more than $250k a year.

Joe the plumber.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/10/16/politics/horserace/entry4525242.shtml?FARKnr




EDIT:
Guess who's apparently not registered to vote.

Joe the plumber

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/The_Joe_file.html

EDIT EDIT:
Okay, he is registered to vote. Here's the update

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/Joes_registration.html?showall


Wonder if that first comment on that newest blog entry is true:

Yeah, that's him... ...he's also the brother of the son in law of Charles Keating...just to further tie him to McCain...

[the4thpip]

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20081014/i/r588595512.jpg

I guess Bush is no longer pretending to still be on the wagon?

[AaronJ]

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20081014/i/r588595512.jpg

I guess Bush is no longer pretending to still be on the wagon?

That's a disturbing picture on many levels.

[KevinTBrown]

Guess who doesn't make more than $250k a year.

Joe the plumber.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/10/16/politics/horserace/entry4525242.shtml?FARKnr




EDIT:
Guess who's apparently not registered to vote.

Joe the plumber

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/The_Joe_file.html

EDIT EDIT:
Okay, he is registered to vote. Here's the update

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/Joes_registration.html?showall

Joe Wurzelbacher doesn't immediately turn up in the Ohio voter registration database, leading to some speculation last night that he's not registered to vote.

But the Toledo Blade reports that he appears to be a registered Republican, and a primary voter at that:

"Linda Howe, executive director of the Lucas County Board of Elections, said a Samuel Joseph Worzelbacher, whose address and age match Joe the Plumber’s, registered in Lucas County on Sept. 10, 1992. He voted in his first primary on March 4, 2008, registering as a Republican.

"Ms. Howe said that the name may be misspelled in the database."



Now isn't that funny. His name is misspelled. And, according to how the Pubs will contest every vote for the slightest of errors, they'll be contesting his then......

[FalconX2000]

I've been watching the first half hour of the debate on youtube and I have no idea what you guys are talking about Obama losing. This is the level he showed during the 20th debate with Hillary Clinton. He's almost impervious. His answers are smooth, clear and concise enough. And he's friendlier here than back then too.

Furthermore, his overall debate strategy left McCain completely exposed as the one trying to distract the electorate from issues like the economy and healthcare by focusing on character attacks.

I'm still watching, but most of the complaints I've heard on this thread were about the first parts, and I'm more than satisfied with Obama's responses.

[4thHorseman]

Wonder if that first comment on that newest blog entry is true:

It might explain why McCain kept using Joe the Plumber repeatedly in the debate. Bring enough news about him, then see how he responds. If he prefers McCain, then that may swing some voters.

However, the argument he uses "He'll just change it when he gets to office down the road", pisses me off and anyone who uses that reasoning.

[the4thpip]

It might explain why McCain kept using Joe the Plumber repeatedly in the debate. Bring enough news about him, then see how he responds. If he prefers McCain, then that may swing some voters.

However, the argument he uses "He'll just change it when he gets to office down the road", pisses me off and anyone who uses that reasoning.

It's the exact same reasoning McCain used on The View and elsewhere to defend his lie that Obama would raise taxes on most voters.

[Crowley]

Joe the Plumber's an asshole.

[The Mutt]

It might explain why McCain kept using Joe the Plumber repeatedly in the debate. Bring enough news about him, then see how he responds. If he prefers McCain, then that may swing some voters.

However, the argument he uses "He'll just change it when he gets to office down the road", pisses me off and anyone who uses that reasoning.

The old "slippery slope" excuse as well.

The same one they use to equate equal rights for all citizens with having sex with dogs.

[Typo Lad]

I caught two minutes or so of the debate last night, and had to turn it off because I was offended.

I can't be the only pro-choice person out there who gets royally pissed at being called "pro abortion", can I?

[K-DoG7p7]

Irish bookmaker pays out early on Obama victory (http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE49F4TZ20081016)

[FalconX2000]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4951494.ece

White racists for Obama!

[The Mutt]

This is absolutely uncanny! Last night's debate predicted 40 years ago.

Penguin debates Batman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l63SRpGXBHE&eurl=http://buzzfeed.com/tikva/preview-of-tonights-debate-batman-vs-the-pe-tu

Spooky, innit?

[Infra-Man]

The main thing about Joe the plumber that gets me.

He makes less than $250k a year, he intends to buy the business he works for. Hence would get greater tax relief right now and upon buying the business would likely qualify for a number of Obama's proposed tax credits (e.g., health care, capital gains, etc.) and loan expansion programs for small businesses and start ups.

Ergo, Joe the plumber would actually do better under Obama's proposed tax plan/economic plan, not worse.

[FalconX2000]

...:frown:

Next time that happens, facepalm yourself and tell them the Democrats aren't a sports team.



On a lighter note:

John McCain is, apparently, the Penguin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjYniYChX3k

This is absolutely uncanny! Last night's debate predicted 40 years ago.

Penguin debates Batman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l63SRpGXBHE&eurl=http://buzzfeed.com/tikva/preview-of-tonights-debate-batman-vs-the-pe-tu

Spooky, innit?

Beat'cha to it on page 601 man.:smile:

[the4thpip]

The main thing about Joe the plumber that gets me.

He makes less than $250k a year, he intends to buy the business he works for. Hence would get greater tax relief right now and upon buying the business would likely qualify for a number of Obama's proposed tax credits (e.g., health care, capital gains, etc.) and loan expansion programs for small businesses and start ups.

Ergo, Joe the plumber would actually do better under Obama's proposed tax plan/economic plan, not worse.

Republican voters going against their own better interest?
Say it isn't so!

[4thHorseman]

The main thing about Joe the plumber that gets me.

He makes less than $250k a year, he intends to buy the business he works for. Hence would get greater tax relief right now and upon buying the business would likely qualify for a number of Obama's proposed tax credits (e.g., health care, capital gains, etc.) and loan expansion programs for small businesses and start ups.

Ergo, Joe the plumber would actually do better under Obama's proposed tax plan/economic plan, not worse.

One track mind. Business that makes more than $250k a year means more taxes. Everything beyond that is irrelavent to him.

[Kevinroc]

By the way, speaking as someone who has a brother with autism, can I say how insulting it was that John McCain doesn't understand the difference between autism and down syndrome?

[KevinTBrown]

By the way, speaking as someone who has a brother with autism, can I say how insulting it was that John McCain doesn't understand the difference between autism and down syndrome?

Palin has a nephew who is autistic.





Also, Obama warns of overconfidence. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081016/pl_nm/us_usa_politics)

[Buzz Dixon]

Yes. At the end of the debate, McCain was going to go around the desk the same way as Obama but he would have crossed in front of some television equipment, so the moderator directed him to turn around. McCain did that funny little movement to cover up going the wrong way.

In still photos, it looked silly. It kinda looked silly live, too, but he was just making a joke about headed the wrong way....and that sums up his campaign in a nutshell.:tongue:

[KevinTBrown]

The main thing about Joe the plumber that gets me.

He makes less than $250k a year, he intends to buy the business he works for. Hence would get greater tax relief right now and upon buying the business would likely qualify for a number of Obama's proposed tax credits (e.g., health care, capital gains, etc.) and loan expansion programs for small businesses and start ups.

Ergo, Joe the plumber would actually do better under Obama's proposed tax plan/economic plan, not worse.

It's a shame he's not licensed....

http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/1008/Joe_not_a_licensed_plumber_McCains_enthusiasm_not_ diminished.html

[KevinTBrown]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnb2IrsU1Cg


:rolleyes:

[Corrina]

...and that sums up his campaign in a nutshell.:tongue:

And proves my propensity for typos. :)

[Paul McEnery]

The funny faces of John McCain at the end of last night's debate:
http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo172/hvigilla/n9104676_38374631_3473.jpg

Dr. Funkenstein followed by Igor.

[the4thpip]

A California Republican group's latest newsletter shows Barack Obama on a $10 bill -- but it's not a compliment. The picture shows Obama eating fried chicken, watermelon and ribs, an image that harks back to old derogatory stereotypes about African-Americans.

Diane Fedele, the president of the responsible organization, Chaffey Community Republican Women, Federated, says the image was distributed without any racist intent. "I never connected," she told a local newspaper. "It was just food to me. It didn't mean anything else."

The press secretary for the state Republican Party has denounced the use of the image, the Associated Press reports, and has also pointed out that the group is a volunteer organization not directly responsible to the party.

Fedele has apologized "to anyone who was offended."

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2008/10/16/newsletter/index.html

SACRAMENTO — The Sacramento County Republican Party removed images from its official Web site that compared Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama to Osama bin Laden and urged people to "Waterboard Barack Obama," after state GOP leaders complained about the content.

The Sacramento Bee today posted an image it said was captured from the Web site that showed Obama in a turban next to bin Laden. It said: "The difference between Osama and Obama is just a little B.S."

State Republican Party spokesman Hector Barajas said the party asked Sacramento GOP officials to remove the offensive material on Tuesday.

"I indicated that this campaign is a campaign about the issues. Barack Obama is not a Muslim, he's a Christian, and that's been put forth by Sen. John McCain," Barajas said.

County Republican chairman Craig MacGlashan did not immediately respond to a telephone message left at his law office by The Associated Press today. A home phone listing was no longer in service.

By today, the images of Obama juxtaposed with the terrorist who is believed to be the mastermind of the Sept. 11 terror attacks were replaced with cartoon images of the Illinois senator and an altered photo of Obama with the headline "Progressive-Equally-Scary-Commie???"

http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_10726954

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Joe the Plumber's an asshole.

He's pretty much an idiot who got his 15 minutes of fame as the McCain camp wanted...so bad. Its just that its now being linked to them and its back firing. Nice job John mentioning Joe 50 times to really show how bad your campaign hired a guy.

I caught two minutes or so of the debate last night, and had to turn it off because I was offended.

I can't be the only pro-choice person out there who gets royally pissed at being called "pro abortion", can I?

I was once in a church group and said I supported Clinton all those years ago. I was told I was a baby killer and supported death.

The main thing about Joe the plumber that gets me.

He makes less than $250k a year, he intends to buy the business he works for. Hence would get greater tax relief right now and upon buying the business would likely qualify for a number of Obama's proposed tax credits (e.g., health care, capital gains, etc.) and loan expansion programs for small businesses and start ups.

Ergo, Joe the plumber would actually do better under Obama's proposed tax plan/economic plan, not worse.

One track mind. Business that makes more than $250k a year means more taxes. Everything beyond that is irrelavent to him.

Well the fact he was a "Plant" by McCain is starting to come out now. Can the McCain campaign get any worse ?

[4thHorseman]

Well the fact he was a "Plant" by McCain is starting to come out now. Can the McCain campaign get any worse ?

So is it official now? I know there were those suspecting, but I hadn't heard anything for sure.

[the4thpip]

So is it official now? I know there were those suspecting, but I hadn't heard anything for sure.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-j-elisberg/john-mccain-and-the-joe-t_b_135319.html

[The Mutt]

Dr. Funkenstein followed by Igor.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u51/The_Mutt_pics/Page_1_2_2.jpg

[4thHorseman]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-j-elisberg/john-mccain-and-the-joe-t_b_135319.html

Final nail in the coffin?

God I hope so
































But I would like to see it get worse for him.

[Paul McEnery]

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u51/The_Mutt_pics/Page_1_2_2.jpg

Much obliged. :biggrin:

[Black Atom]

I caught two minutes or so of the debate last night, and had to turn it off because I was offended.

I can't be the only pro-choice person out there who gets royally pissed at being called "pro abortion", can I?

If that bugged you, you probably missed this:

SCHIEFFER: All right. Let's stop there and go to another question. And this one goes to Senator McCain. Senator McCain, you believe Roe v. Wade should be overturned. Senator Obama, you believe it shouldn't.

...

SCHIEFFER: But even if it was someone -- even someone who had a history of being for abortion rights, you would consider them?

MCCAIN: I would consider anyone in their qualifications. I do not believe that someone who has supported Roe v. Wade that would be part of those qualifications. But I certainly would not impose any litmus test.


Am I misinterpreting this or did McCain mispeak. It seems he's basically saying that anyone who has supported Roe v. Wade is clearly unqualified for the job of justice.

[Paul McEnery]

If that bugged you, you probably missed this:



Am I misinterpreting this or did McCain mispeak. It seems he's basically saying that anyone who has supported Roe v. Wade is clearly unqualified for the job of justice.

He did not misspeak. That is his point of view. McCain has always been against reproductive rights.

And last night, he showed that he's also against affordable health care, and against international labour rights.

And probably something else in the half hour I missed because of a fit of apoplexy.

Oh, and given that he kept addressing his voters as people who will be affected by Obama's tax plan, I think we can assume that the only people he does care about are those earning more than a quarter mill.

And while we're at it, he also thinks that being part of a racist lynch mob is the definition of being a public spirited American citizen.

[kingdom2000]

The main thing about Joe the plumber that gets me.

He makes less than $250k a year, he intends to buy the business he works for. Hence would get greater tax relief right now and upon buying the business would likely qualify for a number of Obama's proposed tax credits (e.g., health care, capital gains, etc.) and loan expansion programs for small businesses and start ups.

Ergo, Joe the plumber would actually do better under Obama's proposed tax plan/economic plan, not worse.

I have never understood American's tendancies to vote against their own self interests. The rich, corporations etc pushing for Republicans makes sense. They benefit greatly under them. But the poor, the middle class, small busineses? It makes no sense. They are literally vote for the people that want to take away some of the things they have probably enjoyed at some point in their life.

My dad for example was laid off a few years ago, got unemployment. Yet he is a die hard republican. I ask him why and typically he can't articulate a valid reason beyond the usual "smaller government" and the like that most throw out that isn't backed up by history.

I real freaking simple. You make less then $250,000 a year and don't operate a medium size or larger business, there is no valid reason for you to vote republican if money is your primary concern. None, zilch, nada. Anything you come up with is just excuses like joe's slipper slope nonsense.

[Black Atom]

He did not misspeak. That is his point of view. McCain has always been against reproductive rights.

And last night, he showed that he's also against affordable health care, and against international labour rights.

And probably something else in the half hour I missed because of a fit of apoplexy.

Oh, and given that he kept addressing his voters as people who will be affected by Obama's tax plan, I think we can assume that the only people he does care about are those earning more than a quarter mill.

And while we're at it, he also thinks that being part of a racist lynch mob is the definition of being a public spirited American citizen.

I get that those are his shitty policies. I'm just--well--shocked that he'd phrase his answer in such an insulting and douchey way. Not because I think McCain is above douchiness or anything, but as presented, he not only infers that he would apply a de facto litmus test (contrary to the first part of his statement) but also that a potential justice that would uphold the ruling is unqualified/malinformed/stupid.

[Infra-Man]

How Obama keeps it classy.

The full five-minute conversation with Joe the plumber:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LvWZpX-j9Q

"Even if I don't get your vote, I'm still going to be working hard on your behalf."

[Black Atom]

I have never understood American's tendancies to vote against their own self interests. The rich, corporations etc pushing for Republicans makes sense. They benefit greatly under them. But the poor, the middle class, small busineses? It makes no sense. They are literally vote for the people that want to take away some of the things they have probably enjoyed at some point in their life.

My dad for example was laid off a few years ago, got unemployment. Yet he is a die hard republican. I ask him why and typically he can't articulate a valid reason beyond the usual "smaller government" and the like that most throw out that isn't backed up by history.

I real freaking simple. You make less then $250,000 a year and don't operate a medium size or larger business, there is no valid reason for you to vote republican if money is your primary concern. None, zilch, nada. Anything you come up with is just excuses like joe's slipper slope nonsense.

Mostly ignorance. Many Americans cling religiously to the "American Dream"--yes, you, too, can be a self-made millionaire if only the pesky government stopped interfering.

Also, social programs sounds like Socialism, which we all know is the same as Communism. What, you want the government chopping up your Mercedes and dividing amongst everyone on your block, pinko?

[Michael P]

Mostly ignorance. Many Americans cling religiously to the "American Dream"--yes, you, too, can be a self-made millionaire if only the pesky government stopped interfering.

That last bit's actually a rather recent addition. The two weren't really linked (with the corollary that government regulation somehow prevents people from achieving the American Dream) until a few decades ago. Before that, being anti-big government was mostly a principle thing.

[Stressfactor]

How Obama keeps it classy.

The full five-minute conversation with Joe the plumber:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LvWZpX-j9Q

"Even if I don't get your vote, I'm still going to be working hard on your behalf."

Pardon my french but... godDAMN... Joe the plumber calls that tap dancing?! Christ on a pogo stick Obama just gave a condensed but VERY straightforward description of his economic plan! What part of that was tap dancing?

Obama was HONEST -- "Yes, taxes will go up and no one likes higher taxes" but he was also logical and appealed to people's better nature -- "I'd be willing to give up more if it would help the people behind me."

The fact that Obama was "ambushed" and gave such a clear, consisce, answer AND could answer the man's follow up about a flat tax without a teleprompter or a script says VOLUMES about Obama.

And yeah, even at the end he DID keep it classy.

If I wasn't already in the man's camp THIS sure would have sold me. Debates are coached, rehersed, and prepared for but getting ambushed while glad-handing is NOT something that one can be prepared for. THIS tells me that Obama knows his stuff -- he's got it in his head and he's studied it -- not just memorized a bunch of crap off of some papers.

[KevinTBrown]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-j-elisberg/john-mccain-and-the-joe-t_b_135319.html

Hmmmmm, for some reason the story isn't coming up for me. What does it say?

[Charles RB]

The fact that Obama was "ambushed" and gave such a clear, consisce, answer AND could answer the man's follow up about a flat tax without a teleprompter or a script says VOLUMES about Obama.

And yeah, even at the end he DID keep it classy.


I cannot think offhand of any other current politician who could do that.

[Corrina]

Minor fact check.

At one point McCain said that Kennedy and Goldwater had agreed to a series of town hall meetings, like the ones that McCain proposed to Obama.

He said 'the tragedy in Dallas' intervened.

Kennedy was assassinated in 1963. The election year was 1964. Correct me if I'm wrong but how could Goldwater be the nominee in 1963, when the campaign hadn't happened yet?? Was McCain pulling this out of his hat or did something really unusual happen in 1963. (And no, McCain didn't accidentally say Kennedy and meant Johnson. He knew he was talking about Kennedy. He clearly said 'the tragedy in Dallas.')

[Tetsuo_man]

Minor fact check.

At one point McCain said that Kennedy and Goldwater had agreed to a series of town hall meetings, like the ones that McCain proposed to Obama.

He said 'the tragedy in Dallas' intervened.

Kennedy was assassinated in 1963. The election year was 1964. Correct me if I'm wrong but how could Goldwater be the nominee in 1963, when the campaign hadn't happened yet?? Was McCain pulling this out of his hat or did something really unusual happen in 1963. (And no, McCain didn't accidentally say Kennedy and meant Johnson. He knew he was talking about Kennedy. He clearly said 'the tragedy in Dallas.')

I think goldwater had once said if kennedy hand't died goldwater would have proposed town hall meetings and he thought kennedy would have obliged. But it was all speculative.

[Tetsuo_man]

This is distubing but not suprising: http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/mccainpalin-supporters-let-their-rac

[4PointOh]

Can't you feel the love?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRqcfqiXCX0

[Tetsuo_man]

Old ladies supposedly beat up obama supporters: http://multimedia.boston.com/pub/tn/15/politics.htm?bctid=1859060243

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I read the Rolling Stone magazine article on John McCain and its pretty alarming about him. His latest actions (beyond his crashing planes military service) politically is fucked up . How he changes his policies and flip flops , lies and will kiss anyones ass to be president. Even some in his own party are scared he could win the Presidency with his horrible temper and erratic behavior.

"He's like George W Bush on steriods."

[The Mutt]

I read the Rolling Stone magazine article on John McCain and its pretty alarming about him. His latest actions (beyond his crashing planes military service) politically is fucked up . How he changes his policies and flip flops , lies and will kiss anyones ass to be president. Even some in his own party are scared he could win the Presidency with his horrible temper and erratic behavior.

"He's like George W Bush on steriods."

If he's elected, Cheney will have him whacked so he can have another no-nothing cypher in the White House to be his puppet.

[Infra-Man]

Remember how McCain pussied out last night when he brought up Bill Ayers?

Well, so begins the RNC robocalls painting Obama as a domestic terrorist.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/16/massive-rnc-robocall-may_n_135348.html?ref=LAUS5gPemV

Wave Of McCain Robocalls Reported, Some May Violate State Law
The McCain-Palin campaign and the Republican National Committee launched a massive robocall campaign on Thursday designed to alarm voters about Barack Obama's past association with former radical Bill Ayers. The committee may be violating state law in the process.

The call begins: "Hello. I'm calling for John McCain and the RNC," before telling recipients that they "need to know that Barack Obama has worked closely with domestic terrorist, Bill Ayers, whose organization bombed the U.S. Capitol, the Pentagon, a judge's home, and killed Americans."

More remarkable than the message (coming after a presidential debate in which John McCain said he didn't care about a "washed up terrorist") is the reach of the campaign itself. The Huffington Post received dozens of emails from voters who had either received the call or gotten a voice mail with a recording. Reports came from Ohio, Colorado, New Mexico, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Virginia, Missouri, North Carolina, Florida, Texas, West Virginia, Maine and even Georgia

Several readers in Minnesota also reported receiving the call, which could be a violation of that state's laws. Explains Shaun Dakin, CEO & Founder of the National Political Do Not Contact Registry:

"Most robocalls are supposed to have two things, "paid for by X" and a phone number of the group making the call. Most do that. Now, that being said, there are some states that have their own robocall laws and they are much stricter. Minnesota pretty much bans robocalls entirely unless they are introduced by a human voice. And that pretty much never happens because it defeats the point."

The RNC did not immediately return request for comment. Here's audio of the call: (see link)

The majority of responses from the Democratic and independent readers who received the Ayers robocall were sharply (perhaps not surprisingly) negative.

Vic from New Mexico wrote: "l just received [a robocall] from McCain and the RNC, calling Obama a 'terrorist' after McCain's claim last night that he's not running a negative campaign."

Ali in Missouri wrote: "I have already received two McCain calls. The one yesterday was relatively benign but the one today linked Obama directly to the 'terrorist Bill Ayers,' describing Ayers' violent activities."

Kimberly in Virginia writes: "I would like to feel shocked by the offensive nature of the message, but can't say that I am that surprised, given the Republican tactics of the last month, and the last eight years."

Kirk in Wisconsin emailed: "My guess is it will cost McCain 2 votes for each one he gets."

Multiple readers wrote that they had been receiving robocalls from Republican sources well before the recent wave, and that those calls were mild in comparison. A reader in Colorado said he recently received a call about Obama's association with ACORN. A self-described independent in Colorado said she has been receiving "an average of about 10 calls a week- almost exclusively from Republicans." Others recalled getting calls about Obama and his Hollywood friends.

Again, if you hear these things, feel free to contact the Huffington Post.

John McCain using the same robocall tactics that screwed him over in the 2000 primaries. McCain has no more scruples, is a dickweed.

EDIT:
On top of that, if I remember the documentary The Weather Underground correctly, the Weathermen didn't kill anyone.

[FalconX2000]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnb2IrsU1Cg


:rolleyes:

That's ad worthy.

I cannot think offhand of any other current politician who could do that.

There was one. He was Canadian.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7_a2wa2dd4

[FalconX2000]

http://www.freep.com/article/20081016/NEWS15/810160422/1008/news06

Since McCain has abandoned efforts in the state, the Obama campaign is dusting Michigan off its' hands, moving personnel to help in other battlegrounds.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

if I remember the documentary The Weather Underground correctly, the Weathermen didn't kill anyone.

Most of what I read about them is that they blew up some statue at a campus or something.

First time I´m hearing about deaths and judges´houses.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

On the Daily Show they did a great segment about "Joe the Plumber". In it...they basically made a joke about how the media went monkey shit crazy over the guy.

John Stewart: "We join John Oliver as he's at Joe's house...why all this attention John ?"

John Oliver : "Well , John you see Joe is a hero (clips of Joe echoing every Republican talking point ) its like taking an injection of apple pie in your veins ! And we'll be here after Joe's 15 minutes of fame....12 more minutes."

John Stewart : "12 more minutes ?"

John Oliver : 'Yes , John...because after his 15 minutes of fame , the next 12 will be tearing his life apart !" (clips of media finding out truth about Joe !)

[Black Atom]

This is distubing but not suprising: http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/mccainpalin-supporters-let-their-rac

I commend the individuals from these communities who're protesting and making their voices heard. Honeslty. Godspeed.

Regardless of who you support, we should all be able to agree that this sort of fear-mongering and miseducation is no way to win an election. Pandering to a fringe of entrenched, vehement racists and validating their feelings of xenophobia, division, and hatred to rally them to the cause is immoral. Plain and simple. I'm honestly saddened, disappointed and angered by this. We have a political party playing on the very same irrational fears and hatred from the darkest era our nation's history.

I'm also a bit disappointed by the lack of outrage in response to some of these acts and other blatant racism, like a GOP group putting Obama's face on a food stamp, surrounding by fried chicken and watermelon. I understand why it's important for Obama to stay above the fray, but why isn't there more condemnation from the media, or interest groups like the ACLU or even the NAACP over these tactics? It's like we've built up a cynical tolerance to this shit.

[CutterMike]

Is it wrong of me that I want to get into a McCain/Palin rally and try to get a chant of "One country, one people, one leader!" started and see if anyone catches on?

[KevinTBrown]

McCain and Obama at the Alfred E. Smith Memorial Dinner:

McCain (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRSmQqw65Pg)

Obama (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5SWQJWm6Tg)


Some truly funny stuff there! :biggrin:

[Michael P]

Is it wrong of me that I want to get into a McCain/Palin rally and try to get a chant of "One country, one people, one leader!" started and see if anyone catches on?

Not at all.

[TCJohnson]

McCain and Obama at the Alfred E. Smith Memorial Dinner:

McCain (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRSmQqw65Pg)

Obama (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5SWQJWm6Tg)


Some truly funny stuff there! :biggrin:

That McCain was cut short...they cut out his digs on Keith Olderman. McCain also said some nice things about Obama at the end: http://www.myfoxny.com/myfox/MyFox/pages/sidebar_video.jsp?contentId=7663523&version=1&locale=EN-US

[Nick Soapdish]

Anyone paying for health care right now, especially families, can do the math easy on the health care plan.

We pay $13,000 a year for ours, before taxes. Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Pretty good stuff save for the out of network deductible. (Any good health care right now has the high deductible. If you want specialists, you're somewhat screwed.)

And no one's mentioned dental care, either.

Next to that, a $5,000 tax credit is squat. And you're going to tax me on it?? WTF kind of health care plan is that?

Isn't it $5,000 per adult? So wouldn't you be getting $10,000 (pre-tax) to pay for the $13,000?

I'm pretty sure that either plan is close to a wash for me. I'm already insured so I don't think Obama's would affect me. And my health care costs just under $5000 (because I have no dependents or anything), most of which is paid by my employer. I figure that the tax credit and then being taxed on it would pretty much equal out to my share ($50 a month). But I'm a rarity among the insured.

How Obama keeps it classy.

The full five-minute conversation with Joe the plumber:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LvWZpX-j9Q

"Even if I don't get your vote, I'm still going to be working hard on your behalf."

Just watched that.

Dunno if it's a "gotcha" question or not and I don't really care. (I thought that the Palin complaint was pretty pathetic.) But he did a great job of explaining how it would probably work for Joe the Plumber and making his case for why it is better by comparing Joe to his self of ten years ago.

[kingdom2000]

Isn't it $5,000 per adult? So wouldn't you be getting $10,000 (pre-tax) to pay for the $13,000?

I'm pretty sure that either plan is close to a wash for me. I'm already insured so I don't think Obama's would affect me. And my health care costs just under $5000 (because I have no dependents or anything), most of which is paid by my employer. I figure that the tax credit and then being taxed on it would pretty much equal out to my share ($50 a month). But I'm a rarity among the insured.



Just watched that.

Dunno if it's a "gotcha" question or not and I don't really care. (I thought that the Palin complaint was pretty pathetic.) But he did a great job of explaining how it would probably work for Joe the Plumber and making his case for why it is better by comparing Joe to his self of ten years ago.

Its $2500 per or $5000 per family. So nope she wouldn't. Also note its a tax credit. So lets so your adjusted income is as joint fillers is $50k. So 2007 taxes was $6721 at $50k for joint return, $8930 for single.

Now lets take it to a more realistic medium of $25k (adjusted). For joint: $2971, single $3363.

Does that credit mean those $50kers will only pay $1721 and $4930 and the $25kers will actually get thousands back from the government? Or does it mean your adjusted gross income just drops $5k which means your actual savings is only a few hundred dollars at most on taxes. Very huge difference on which it means.

[the4thpip]

In Georgia, where Obama's campaign is apparently considering trying to compete again, more than half a million people have already voted; 210,000 of them were African-American, an encouraging sign to Democrats.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/10/17/early_vote/