2008 U.S. Presidential Election Mega thread

[KevinTBrown]

Obama & McCain now tied, in a poll taken before the Republican convention was even finished:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/04/opinion/polls/main4416798.shtml


I bet after the effects of Palin's and McCain's extremely good speeches are factored in, they might even pull ahead... Oh, and numbers show that nearly as many people watch Palin's speech as Obama's (37 million to his 38), despite the fact that his speech was carried on 10 networks and hers only on 6. And she completely blew away the viewer numbers for Biden, which was only 24 million.

http://www.marketingvox.com/palin-acceptance-speech-draws-37m-viewers-utterly-outshines-biden-040789/

Hey, idiot:
Obama and McCain are now tied:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13168.html

Um, ok.....

Gallup has Obama by 7.
Rassmussen has Obama by 5.

All 3 polls taken during the same 3 day period.

And Gallup is the ONLY poll both parties agree with.

http://www.rif.org

:rolleyes:

[Sally Sensational]

I bet after the effects of Palin's and McCain's extremely good speeches are factored in, they might even pull ahead... Oh, and numbers show that nearly as many people watch Palin's speech as Obama's (37 million to his 38), despite the fact that his speech was carried on 10 networks and hers only on 6. And she completely blew away the viewer numbers for Biden, which was only 24 million.


Yeah, well, everybody who had power in Arkansas and Louisiana HAD to watch Palin's speech. It was on past the time when the local news, which we were relying on for weather reports, school and business closings, etc. should have started!

Somebody might have mentioned to the RNC that pre-empting vital local news reports in disaster areas wasn't exactly the BEST way to go about supporting people in those areas. They could have easily shuffled the schedule just a smidge so that 10 - 10:30 central time was free.

[PatrickG]

Just saw McCain's speech.

It's funny how after everyone else bashed community organizers, 90% of the stuff he touched on (communities rallying and making decisions at the local level, literacy, job training, parents getting involved in kids' education, rehabilitation for the unemployed, encouraging people to take part in the system who are disenfranchised) is... ah... a community organizer's job.

Hopefully nobody in the GOP will realize that they've nominated a community organizer or they'll have to take back the nomination.

McCain's speech was good. But it was a bit funny how, after the cheers, everyone looked dumbfounded when McCain said he hates war and supports diplomacy.

Some of those banners were downright scary. ("Drill everywhere! Drill now!", "Peace Through Strength", "Maverick" mis-spelled several ways and "Death to America's Enemies".)

I like McCain more than his party. The problem is, I could only stomach a McCain who was completely unaccountable to the Republican Party and his VP pick doesn't seem to indicate that AT ALL... and neither does the anti-media rhetoric or McCain being sequestered from the media on his plane.

McCain once referred to the media as his "base" and enjoyed being a media darling. Now the media is the bad guy? How does that work unless he's expected to behave and campaign differently and change the kinds of policy positions he held when he WAS that media darling.

I was also bothered by his claim that Obama will raise "your" taxes. I want a Republican Party that stops putting the wealthy first, that stops addressing and answering to CEOs and the people who "have earned the fruits of their labors".

I want a radically blue-to-white collar, radically anti-corporate breed of conservative. One that supports Mom 'n Pop ahead of wiz kids pursuing multi-million dollar pipe dreams. One that doesn't preach "country first" but "community first". Anti-federal. Anti-corporate. Anti-money. Anti-war. A Republican party that views the nation as a collection of states bound by treaty, each with distinct values and culture. United STATES, not United STATE. One that doesn't believe in America as a homeland but rather as a destination.

Nobody is FROM America. America is a place that people go TO but nobody comes FROM.

I'd say that's POSSIBLY the Libertarians but they're a bunch of fruitcakes who whore themselves even more to monied interests and they're currently adopting some of the worst elements of the Republican Party as they welcome its refugees.

[Infra-Man]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080904.wConvention-organizer05/BNStory/International

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-09-04-community_N.htm

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/04/martin.community/?iref=mpstoryview

3 informative (and in Roland Martin's case, moving) pieces in reaction to Guiliani's and Palin's slam on community organisers.

The Daily Show had a great summation of Palin/Giuliani knocks on community organizers.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=184095&title=sarah-palin-vet-this

STEWART: Yeah! So to everybody out there trying to make a difference in your community, FUCK YOU! You stupid assholes! You jerk offs! You know what you are? You know what you are people? You're a thousand points of bullshit, that's what you are

By the way, if it seems odd that the GOP was denigrating community service the night after making "service" their slogan--you're confused. Those Republicans were not praising service with those signs, they were demanding it from the waitstaff.

[Gothos]

My take on Palin:

Palin is the continuation of the GOP's "Condi Rice" strategy: find someone who has a superficial appearance of 'diversity' but who actually wants to restrict other people's right to diverse opinions, and promote that person beyond her competence.

[FalconX2000]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26553401#26548013

I love how Obama slips in that bit at the end about how Joe Biden is going to be effective in helping him govern (which brings to mind the opposite of Palin to John McCain).

[the4thpip]

Alaska police union files complaint against PalinAlaska police union files complaint against Palin



By Aram Roston and Amna Nawaz, NBC News producers

The GOP candidate for vice president, Gov. Sarah Palin, may be facing yet another ethics investigation back in her home state of Alaska. An ethics complaint obtained by NBC News was filed Wednesday by the police officers union in Alaska, requesting a probe into possible wrongdoing by the governor or her office. It was brought on behalf of state trooper Mike Wooten, an ex-brother-in-law of Palin who is at the center of the "Troopergate" scandal.

The complaint alleges that the governor or her staff may have have improperly disclosed information from Wooten's personnel records. The complaint alleges "criminal penalties may apply."

John Cyr, director of the union that filed the complaint, told NBC News, "It seems obvious to us somebody has improperly accessed [Wooten's] personnel file."

The McCain/Palin campaign Thursday launched a spirited defense when contacted by NBC News. They say the personnel files were not protected; a campaign source says Wooten himself had previously signed a waiver allowing a divorce lawyer to obtain his personnel records. The campaign then sent a copy of that waiver to NBC News, which reads "I hereby waive any privilege I may have to said information to said attorneys."

The issue concerns disclosures about Wooten's records made by a Palin aide - Frank Bailey - in a February 2008 phone conversation. The police officers' union complaint claims the transcript of that conversation clearly indicates there was improper access to Wooten's records.

The McCain/Palin campaign, in a response to NBC News, provided a family twist to the story, saying the governor's husband - Todd Palin - was the source of that information to Bailey. They say the information came from divorce proceedings, and that Gov. Palin never improperly accessed any records.

Taylor Griffiths, a spokesman for McCain, said "When you're a real reformer like Sarah Palin, who isn't afraid to take on entrenched political interests, scurrilous attacks and empty allegations come with the territory."


http://deepbackground.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/09/04/1347737.aspx
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/tvnews/deep%20background/alaskapoliceunioncomplaint.pdf


Griffiths is saying these cops lie.

[FalconX2000]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RF650s7WOU

Obama small business in a nutshell.

[Infra-Man]

I have to ask this again:

When will Sarah Palin do press interviews now that she is the Republican VP nominee? We're talking actual sit-downs where her handlers are not involved.

I mean, heck, she can do her 20 minutes on Meet the Press, which, even when Russert was around, kind of pulled its punches when the guest was cornered or called out on something.

[the4thpip]

I have to ask this again:

When will Sarah Palin do press interviews now that she is the Republican VP nominee? We're talking actual sit-downs where her handlers are not involved.

I mean, heck, she can do her 20 minutes on Meet the Press, which, even when Russert was around, kind of pulled its punches when the guest was cornered or called out on something.

Stop being a misogynist!

[the4thpip]

15 Counterpunches to the "90% Bush/Pork Barrel Palin" Convention (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rj-eskow/rapid-response-playbook-1_b_124126.html)

[FalconX2000]

Stop being a misogynist!

Hahahahaha!:biggrin:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iaCO1qZkR4

A clip has been released of Obama on O'Reilly Factor. Obama was fired up.:eek: He and Billo were going at it, and if he can put in that kind of performance when debating McCain, he's gonna do just fine even if with those voters who thought Bush won the debates against Gore.

[Charles RB]

Bewildered by an Occasional Superheroine blog post on Palin (http://occasionalsuperheroine.blogspot.com/2008/09/election-malaise.html), where Val bemoans that, "strategically", she can't look at Palin's good qualities because of how two-party politics works and how this depresses her.

But... Palin's not done well at her job. I get there's a principle here but in practise, with this politician, it's irrelevant because she actually is rubbish - her good qualities are outweighed. There's nothing to be upset about in not looking for the good qualities of someone with a crap record.


The budget was raised the year before. Palin slashed the budget back down. Therefore,

um,

no wait a minute,

No, she still slashed the budget, then.

She wasn't slashing the budget, she was bringing it down to sensible levels to help the taxpayer!

YOU benefit, John Q. Middleclass!


Clinton aides say Pailin's treatment is sexist. (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13129.html)


Oh fucking hell. This comes the day after seeing allegations in a Guardian article that Home Secretary Jacqui Smith faces greater criticism and vitriol because she's a woman.

NO! It's because she's FUCKING SHIT AT BEING HOME SECRETARY! And she's doing things like bringing in horrible new laws for charging people!

[Alexx1]

Hahahahaha!:biggrin:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iaCO1qZkR4

A clip has been released of Obama on O'Reilly Factor. Obama was fired up.:eek: He and Billo were going at it, and if he can put in that kind of performance when debating McCain, he's gonna do just fine even if with those voters who thought Bush won the debates against Gore.

Some want to say Obama's not tough. That's bs. There's a difference between being tough and being nasty. Obama is not in competition to see whose got the best insult or who can hurl the best bard. He is very smart and very methodical in what he is showing people. A lot of whom had a very different impression of him after his DNC speech. He looked and sounded and acted Presidential. He will continue to show his layers but he will do it his way.

[Charles RB]

Yeah, well, everybody who had power in Arkansas and Louisiana HAD to watch Palin's speech. It was on past the time when the local news, which we were relying on for weather reports, school and business closings, etc. should have started!

Somebody might have mentioned to the RNC that pre-empting vital local news reports in disaster areas wasn't exactly the BEST way to go about supporting people in those areas.

Wow, seriously? Jesus.

[FalconX2000]

The Daily Show had a great summation of Palin/Giuliani knocks on community organizers.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=184095&title=sarah-palin-vet-this

Thanks.:biggrin:

I've watched Jon Stewart's old clips, and I've got to say he's improved tremendously. Some of his 2000 clips were very mediocre, but now he's the funniest guy on political TV imo.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Just saw McCain's speech.

It's funny how after everyone else bashed community organizers, 90% of the stuff he touched on (communities rallying and making decisions at the local level, literacy, job training, parents getting involved in kids' education, rehabilitation for the unemployed, encouraging people to take part in the system who are disenfranchised) is... ah... a community organizer's job.

Hopefully nobody in the GOP will realize that they've nominated a community organizer or they'll have to take back the nomination.

McCain's speech was good. But it was a bit funny how, after the cheers, everyone looked dumbfounded when McCain said he hates war and supports diplomacy.

Some of those banners were downright scary. ("Drill everywhere! Drill now!", "Peace Through Strength", "Maverick" mis-spelled several ways and "Death to America's Enemies".)

I like McCain more than his party. The problem is, I could only stomach a McCain who was completely unaccountable to the Republican Party and his VP pick doesn't seem to indicate that AT ALL... and neither does the anti-media rhetoric or McCain being sequestered from the media on his plane.

McCain once referred to the media as his "base" and enjoyed being a media darling. Now the media is the bad guy? How does that work unless he's expected to behave and campaign differently and change the kinds of policy positions he held when he WAS that media darling.

I was also bothered by his claim that Obama will raise "your" taxes. I want a Republican Party that stops putting the wealthy first, that stops addressing and answering to CEOs and the people who "have earned the fruits of their labors".

I want a radically blue-to-white collar, radically anti-corporate breed of conservative. One that supports Mom 'n Pop ahead of wiz kids pursuing multi-million dollar pipe dreams. One that doesn't preach "country first" but "community first". Anti-federal. Anti-corporate. Anti-money. Anti-war. A Republican party that views the nation as a collection of states bound by treaty, each with distinct values and culture. United STATES, not United STATE. One that doesn't believe in America as a homeland but rather as a destination.

Nobody is FROM America. America is a place that people go TO but nobody comes FROM.

I'd say that's POSSIBLY the Libertarians but they're a bunch of fruitcakes who whore themselves even more to monied interests and they're currently adopting some of the worst elements of the Republican Party as they welcome its refugees.

Wow...

"Peace through Strength" ? They got that phrase wrong...



It's Peace through Power.


http://www.gameguru.in/images/cnc-kane-1.jpg




When you get compared to this guy, then there's a serious problem...

[Phrozen]

Wow...

"Peace through Strength" ? They got that phrase wrong...



Which is a take off of

"If you want peace, prepare for war."

[FalconX2000]

Wow...

"Peace through Strength" ? They got that phrase wrong...



It's Peace through Power.


http://www.gameguru.in/images/cnc-kane-1.jpg




When you get compared to this guy, then there's a serious problem...

Should McCain somehow win, I expect to see monolithic laser towers built all over the middle east in shapes vaguely reminiscent of scorpion tails. And for America to achieve energy independence through tiberium.


On a funny note, Andrea Mitchell got swamped by balloons through poor choice of location at the RNC.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26558558#26553254

[LtMarvel]

Thanks, I missed Mitchell but saw the cameramen under their pile of balloons.

[KevinTBrown]

Which is a take off of

"If you want peace, prepare for war."

Just remember.... "fighting for peace" is like "fucking for virginity". Neither make much sense.

[the4thpip]

Cindy McCain parts with Palin on abortion, sex ed

1 day ago

ST. PAUL, Minn. (AP) — The wife of Republican presidential nominee John McCain doesn't agree with vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin's opposition to abortion in cases of rape and incest.

Cindy McCain also parts ways with her husband's running mate on sex education.

Palin opposes abortion and rejects the view that pregnancies caused by rape and incest should be exceptions.

Cindy McCain tells ABC's "Good Morning America" that "I don't agree with that aspect, but I do respect her for her views."

Palin has opposed funding sex-education programs in Alaska.

Cindy McCain tells ABC that she advocated abstinence as a part of sex education at her children's school. "I believe that it's twofold and I think all of it should be taught."

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hW9DgefdzDY24fe3O9gJ5MvkhS9gD92VTI180

[Royal]

Sarah Palin


does not ATTRIBUTE!!!!!

Stop ripping off Wikipedia!!

[Phrozen]

Just remember.... "fighting for peace" is like "fucking for virginity". Neither make much sense.

Bad analogy. Peace can come from violence.

[JKCarrier]

War Is Peace

Freedom Is Slavery

Ignorance Is Strength

[Kid Kamikaze10]

War Is Peace

Freedom Is Slavery

Ignorance Is Strength

Is that from 1984?

[FalconX2000]

It would be more accurate to say that targeted violence can reduce overall violence and help to facilitate the process of peace executed by other means. Sort of like radiation therapy or antibiotics.

[Corrina]

Is that from 1984?

Yes.

And Bush's slogan of 'fight them over there so we don't fight them here' came dangerously close to "War is Peace."

[Black Atom]

So McCain has adopted the foreign policy of the post-Crisis Amazons, it seems.

[Agent Helix]

Bad analogy. Peace can come from violence.

Once you kill everybody, it's pretty peaceful.

[Phrozen]

Once you kill everybody, it's pretty peaceful.

Not exactly what I was going for.

Then again world peace isn't going to come from people loving each but more like people having codependent economic interest in the survival of the other guy.

[Charles RB]

Then again world peace isn't going to come from people loving each but more like people having codependent economic interest in the survival of the other guy.

Which is the principle the EU was based on.

[Grazzt]

Not exactly what I was going for.

Then again world peace isn't going to come from people loving each but more like people having codependent economic interest in the survival of the other guy.

In that case strength only serves to make other people leery. Being strong will protect you, but it makes others nervous. Being attractive to the other side (whether economically, culturally, whatever) is far more important.

[KevinTBrown]

http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/0908/Standing_by_uppity.html



http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1237/mccainhandonface1uy5.jpg

[Infra-Man]

Everything just keeps getting wackier and wackier...

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10033827-56.html


What's McCain doing in front of my junior high?
I was happy to refrain from commenting about John McCain's acceptance speech last night. There are enough political spin doctors out there already and Microsoft is keeping me plenty busy.

But now that my junior high school has taken on the starring role, I can't leave it alone.

It turns out a photo displayed on a screen during the first part of McCain's speech, which some thought was one of McCain's many mansions, was in fact the front of Walter Reed Middle School in North Hollywood, Calif., where yours truly spent three awkward, hormone-filled years. (TV viewers may not have noticed, because the close-ups only showed McCain's head against the green grass in the picture.)

The predominant assumption in the blogosphere is that one of the AV geeks tasked with backdrops for the evening's speech was told to get a photo of Walter Reed Army Medical Center, but got my middle school instead. Weird thing is, as pointed out by Talking Points Memo, the lead blog on the still-developing story, Walter Reed Middle School was also the backdrop for Matt Santos' announcement of his presidential candidacy on The West Wing. (Another Hollywood factoid: the show Head of the Class was also loosely based on Walter Reed Middle School's Individualized Honors Program.)

In the latest wrinkle, Walter Reed's principal has now put out a statement saying the school did not approve McCain's use of the school.

"It has been brought to the school's attention that a picture of the front of our school, Walter Reed Middle School, was used as a backdrop at the Republican National Convention," Principal Donna Tobin said in a statement. "Permission to use the front of our school for the Republican National Convention was not given by our school nor is the use of our school's picture an endorsement of any political party or view."

And, just a memo to the McCain campaign, forcing me to relive my junior high years is not generally a good way to get my vote.

Important political issue? No. Funny gaffe if they did in fact get the wrong Walter Reed? Yes.

[Michael P]

Which is a take off of

"If you want peace, prepare for war."

No, no I just don't see that one.

[Corrina]

This one was vetted by Snopes. It's from a resident of Sarah Palin's hometown.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/kilkenny.asp

Obviously, it's one person. But there are some facts in there, too.

[Grazzt]

This one was vetted by Snopes. It's from a resident of Sarah Palin's hometown.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/kilkenny.asp

Obviously, it's one person. But there are some facts in there, too.

That's really a great read. Even better than most professional articles, actually.

[Paul McEnery]

That's really a great read. Even better than most professional articles, actually.

She's had ten years to work on it!

[the4thpip]

Is another big story about Sarah Palin's family life imminent? It's certainly starting to look possible.

Earlier this week, the National Enquirer reported:

Another incredible allegation emerging from the family war is that Palin, a mother of five, had an affair with a former business associate of her fisherman husband, Todd.

"Todd discovered the affair and quickly dissolved his friendship and his business associations with the guy," charges an enemy. "Many people in Alaska are talking about the rumor and say Todd swept it under the rug."

(The article isn't online, so no link, sorry -- the Enquirer sent me a PDF copy.)

Now, obviously, this is the National Enquirer saying this. But, to quote myself, from a July post about the paper's reporting on John Edwards:

I know what you're thinking: Why even bother with anything printed by the Enquirer, a supermarket tabloid you probably think of as the kind of "newspaper" that focuses on rumors that Elvis Presley is alive -- and leading a band of rampaging space aliens? ... That's not really the Enquirer's niche, though. It gets confused with publications like the defunct Weekly World News, but in fact the Enquirer is surprisingly good at reporting on these kinds of stories, and it has a decent track record with them. It was the Enquirer that published the photo of Donna Rice sitting on Gary Hart's lap. It was the Enquirer that broke the story of Rush Limbaugh's addiction to painkillers.

And we all know how the Edwards story turned out.

Plus, a new bit of information is adding some fuel to the fire: Todd Palin's former business partner has reportedly moved to have the court records from his divorce sealed. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean there's anything juicy in there -- he could just be trying to prevent nosy reporters from digging around, and who could blame him? But it is interesting.
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/

[Sabrinaset]

The saddest thing about the National Enquirer is that, while its stories are definitely on the salacious side, when it comes to those issues that it reports on, it has a better work ethic than most of the mainstream media and still subscribes to the old-school style of feet on the ground investigative reporting that most other MSM outlets have either forgotten how to do, or are too biased to care about. Just ask John Edwards. Or Jesse Jackson.

In any event, here's some more stories in the news ...

The Drudge Report that started it all about Oprah and Palin. (http://www.drudgereport.com/flash3os.htm)

Five reasons why Palin should appear on Oprah ... (http://weblogs.newsday.com/entertainment/tv/blog/2008/09/oprah_five_reasons_why_palin_s.html)

...and ABC asks? Is Oprah biased? (http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/story?id=5736716&page=1)

Palin more popular than Obama and McCain? (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/palin_power_fresh_face_now_more_popular_than_obama _mccain)

McCain TV Ratings Beat Obama in Preliminary Numbers (http://www.tvweek.com/news/2008/09/mccain_tv_ratings_beat_obama_i.php)

[Corrina]

Well, duh, Oprah is biased. She appeared at rallies all over the place for Obama.

I don't know why that's an issue. She's made a career out of having strong opinions. And diet stuff. It's not like she's supposed to be an unbiased, Ted Koppel-type.

[Sabrinaset]

Well, duh, Oprah is biased. She appeared at rallies all over the place for Obama.

I don't know why that's an issue. She's made a career out of having strong opinions. And diet stuff. It's not like she's supposed to be an unbiased, Ted Koppel-type.

I actually thought about putting in a snarky comment after that link like "I'm shocked, SHOCKED I tell you!" but since some of the stuff about Palin hits a little too close to home, including some of the comments made about her here, I've been deliberately trying to not comment on her in any form ... you know what I mean. So I just post the links and leave it at that.

[Royal]

Well, duh, Oprah is biased. She appeared at rallies all over the place for Obama.

I don't know why that's an issue. She's made a career out of having strong opinions. And diet stuff. It's not like she's supposed to be an unbiased, Ted Koppel-type.

http://www.smi.org/modules/img/std/services/pg13_2.jpg

Celebrity blinds her. Makes her naieve.

[Corrina]

I actually thought about putting in a snarky comment after that link like "I'm shocked, SHOCKED I tell you!" but since some of the stuff about Palin hits a little too close to home, including some of the comments made about her here, I've been deliberately trying to not comment on her in any form ... you know what I mean. So I just post the links and leave it at that.

How so?

Though I have to say I'm developing a completely irrational dislike of Palin, similar I would guess to your dislike of Hilary. I've been pondering why. It's not her politics, necessarily, because there are plenty of Republican women that I respect.

It's definitely not related to any judgment about her parenting skills. As with marriage, I can't know what goes on in the family, so to judge her on that is to always judge with incomplete information.

I'll figure it out. I think it goes back to her being a PTA member. :)

[Paul McEnery]

How so?

Though I have to say I'm developing a completely irrational dislike of Palin, similar I would guess to your dislike of Hilary. I've been pondering why. It's not her politics, necessarily, because there are plenty of Republican women that I respect.

It's definitely not related to any judgment about her parenting skills. As with marriage, I can't know what goes on in the family, so to judge her on that is to always judge with incomplete information.

I'll figure it out. I think it goes back to her being a PTA member. :)

I dunno.

Have you watched Heathers recently?

[Corrina]

Heathers?

"I love my dead gay son!"

That is one very dark, cynical comedy.

[Arrogantcur]

I want a radically blue-to-white collar, radically anti-corporate breed of conservative. One that supports Mom 'n Pop ahead of wiz kids pursuing multi-million dollar pipe dreams. One that doesn't preach "country first" but "community first". Anti-federal. Anti-corporate. Anti-money. Anti-war. A Republican party that views the nation as a collection of states bound by treaty, each with distinct values and culture. United STATES, not United STATE. One that doesn't believe in America as a homeland but rather as a destination.

YES!!!!

Forget conservative or liberal, I'd probably vote for somebody like regardless of whether there was a "D", "R" or "I" next to their name.

I have to ask this again:

When will Sarah Palin do press interviews now that she is the Republican VP nominee? We're talking actual sit-downs where her handlers are not involved.

I mean, heck, she can do her 20 minutes on Meet the Press, which, even when Russert was around, kind of pulled its punches when the guest was cornered or called out on something.

Oh, I'm gonna go ahead and guess "never". Dubya doesn't do it that often, and he's a lot more important than Palin.

I'd say that both prefer to avoid it for the same reason; they don't want to be questioned. They prefer instead to walk out, proclaim this or that, and then walk away. They are not interested in dialogue, only monologue. Strange, in a country that's supposed to be a Democracy, to have its leaders behaving like monarchs.

Obama was fired up.:eek: He and Billo were going at it, and if he can put in that kind of performance when debating McCain, he's gonna do just fine even if with those voters who thought Bush won the debates against Gore.

Not sure I'd say he was "fired up", but he sure wasn't backing down. He also had pretty good answers, and O'Reilly was more reasonable than I thought he'd be for most of it.

Bad analogy. Peace can come from violence.

Only when violence is met with violence, such as in World War Two. When any country decides to attack another country, for any reason, they are not ensuring peace. They are ensuring war and violence, such as in Iraq. Even if everything is suddenly wonderful now (and as far as I'm concerned, even if the surge worked it's still just a temporary solution to a permanent problem), it was still pretty awful for five years. There would have been peace had the invasion not happened. That's not to say that it would have been the greatest place to live, that's not to say that living there didn't carry a risk that you might be unjustly victimized by the government and perhaps tortured or killed, but there would have been peace for the bulk of Iraqi citizens and most of them would have been safe in their homes and workplaces.

Though I have to say I'm developing a completely irrational dislike of Palin, similar I would guess to your dislike of Hilary.

After Wednesday night's speech, there's no such thing as an "irrational" dislike of Palin.

[Paul McEnery]

Strange, in a country that's supposed to be a Democracy, to have its leaders behaving like monarchs..

Especially when even monarchs can't get away with that any more.

[Nick Soapdish]

How so?

Though I have to say I'm developing a completely irrational dislike of Palin, similar I would guess to your dislike of Hilary. I've been pondering why. It's not her politics, necessarily, because there are plenty of Republican women that I respect.

It's definitely not related to any judgment about her parenting skills. As with marriage, I can't know what goes on in the family, so to judge her on that is to always judge with incomplete information.

I'll figure it out. I think it goes back to her being a PTA member. :)

Could it be the contortions that some are going to in order to inflate her record?

"She's got foreign policy experience! She's be in charge of the Alaska National Guard and had to worry about the Soviets taking the Aleutians!"

I swear that I really did see that. It's not an exact quote, but it did talk up her defending us from the Soviets.

[Royal]

HOLY FUCK!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDx80bnFrVs)

[kingdom2000]

HOLY FUCK!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDx80bnFrVs)


I wasn't surprised when heard about it. If the Repubs didn't use fear as a tool to get elected, what would they have to run on? Issues? Please. Look at McCain. Get right down to it he is running on 2 things, both related: 1) POW 2) Iran, Iraq and those terrorists are out to kill you.

[C-Cool]

HOLY FUCK!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDx80bnFrVs)

Not cool.

Just Chinese government like...

No, just North Korean...

Sickened me to the core, actually.

I don't want to see this video again really.

The Republicans will never get my vote this way.

Never. Ever.

I want to go to other message boards to show that this crap is not justified, for any reason, nevermind something as petty as political competition.

LOW.

[Michael P]

It won't gain them any friends in New York, I can tell you that much.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

LOL...

You weren't gonna vote for McCain anyway...

:biggrin:


But yeah... I have nothing good to say about that video, except though Olberman is prone to say a lot of ham-fisted crap, I'm on his side when it comes to this.

[Charles RB]

HOLY FUCK!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDx80bnFrVs)

It's completely laughable until Olbermann reminds me people will be seeing this who knew the dead, and then the overly-obvious cynical manipulation becomes less laugh-inducing.

[Royal]

McCAIN IS A PIRATE!!! (http://www.tmz.com/2008/09/04/republicans-lack-heart/)

[Charles RB]

Second time he's done it...

[Buzz Dixon]

War Is Peace

Freedom Is Slavery

Ignorance Is StrengthShit is Shinola

[Royal]

Second time he's done it...

Actually, it's his fifth.

He also doesn't Attribute.

[Michael P]

Eh, he's just continuing a long Republican tradition of appropriating popular songs with neither approval of the artists or any fucking clue what the song is actually about.

I live for the day a candidate uses "YMCA" at a rally.

[Corrina]

Could it be the contortions that some are going to in order to inflate her record?

"She's got foreign policy experience! She's be in charge of the Alaska National Guard and had to worry about the Soviets taking the Aleutians!"

I swear that I really did see that. It's not an exact quote, but it did talk up her defending us from the Soviets.

Yeah, that's a huge part of it, all the contortions to inflate her record and her experience. It is Orwellian.

And she's not only letting them do it, she's glad to help.

They could have just said "she's a fast learner, look what she did in Alaska in a short time, and we're briefing her. By the election, she'll be up to speed. And she's learning from someone like McCain. If the situation calls, I have no qualms that she can answer it, given how she's risen to the occasion in the past."

There. Was that so damned hard?

But, no, we must sneer at community organizers. And the liberal elite running Washington. And provide photo ops of her loving family to prove that her womb belongs to Jesus Christ.

[PatrickG]

Eh, he's just continuing a long Republican tradition of appropriating popular songs with neither approval of the artists or any fucking clue what the song is actually about.

I live for the day a candidate uses "YMCA" at a rally.

What if it's at a gay singles event? Is it appropriate then?

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Where's that facepalm pic when you need it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Re0vmbtHK8

[Briareos]

Why should now believe a word Obama says:

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/markbrickman/gG5rK5/commentary

This is from his official site.. It is a report of a obvious lie that in 1996 Palin pressured a librarian to ban books. Since some of the books on the list were not published then and that the list is a well known list of "books that have been banned" that has been around the for awhile.

[Jake V]

Why should now believe a word Obama says:

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/markbrickman/gG5rK5/commentary

This is from his official site.. It is a report of a obvious lie that in 1996 Palin pressured a librarian to ban books. Since some of the books on the list were not published then and that the list is a well known list of "books that have been banned" that has been around the for awhile.

Looks like a guy named Mark Brickman wrote that.

I'd be OK with not believing anything Mr. Brickman says anymore. Or at least believe his lists.


Back in reality, she DID admit to inquiring about how she might go about banning books, but she never actually did because of the opposition she got from librarians.

[TomStillwell]

Why should now believe a word Obama says:

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/markbrickman/gG5rK5/commentary

This is from his official site.. It is a report of a obvious lie that in 1996 Palin pressured a librarian to ban books. Since some of the books on the list were not published then and that the list is a well known list of "books that have been banned" that has been around the for awhile.

Has Obama been blogging under the name Mark Brickman again? That wacky kid!

[Evan Waters]

Are TMZ's comments usually that bad?

[Buzz Dixon]

The irony is that Palin could have been a dynamite candidate for 2016 if the GOP had recognized her potential and had started grooming her this year.

The problem is not all the goofy elements of her bio; those details can be quite charming and very humanizing.

The problem was they were all dumped at once on the American public. Introduced bit by bit over a period of time, they'd scarcely have been noticed.

If the GOP wanted a strong female candidate to run against Hillary in 2016, they should have let Palin given a keynote speech this year, same as Obama did in 2004. Have her fly around the country for 8 years making stump speeches to help Congressional and gubenitorial candidates. Then she wouldn't have been an unknown, her kids would have been young adults, and the wackier aspects of her bio would be something everybody -- including Palin herself -- could have a good chuckle over.

The Dems aren't going to attack her; they don't have to. Late night comedy will do that job. The Dems are going to attack John McCain, who is a genuine war hero, who has a good record as a senator, but who unfortunately in 2008 looks like a little, lumpy, colorless old geezer standing next to Obama.

[Buzz Dixon]

Best. Bucky. Kat. Quote. EVER.

http://images.chron.com/apps/comics/images/2008/9/6/Fuzzy.485.g.gif

[Paul McEnery]

Looks like a guy named Mark Brickman wrote that.

I'd be OK with not believing anything Mr. Brickman says anymore. Or at least believe his lists.


Back in reality, she DID admit to inquiring about how she might go about banning books, but she never actually did because of the opposition she got from librarians.

Inaccurate.

She tried to fire the librarian who resisted her, then the town resisted the firing.

[Samurai]

Yeah, that's a huge part of it, all the contortions to inflate her record and her experience. It is Orwellian.

And she's not only letting them do it, she's glad to help.

They could have just said "she's a fast learner, look what she did in Alaska in a short time, and we're briefing her. By the election, she'll be up to speed. And she's learning from someone like McCain. If the situation calls, I have no qualms that she can answer it, given how she's risen to the occasion in the past."

There. Was that so damned hard?

But, no, we must sneer at community organizers. And the liberal elite running Washington. And provide photo ops of her loving family to prove that her womb belongs to Jesus Christ.
Talk about Orwellian:

http://www.investors.com/editorial/editorialcontent.asp?secid=1501&status=article&id=305420655186700

Michelle's Boot Camps For Radicals

INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY

Posted 9/4/2008

Election '08: Democrats' reintroduction of militant Michelle Obama in Denver was supposed to show her softer side. But it only highlighted a radical part of her resume: Public Allies.

IBD Series: The Audacity Of Socialism

Barack Obama was a founding member of the board of Public Allies in 1992, resigning before his wife became executive director of the Chicago chapter of Public Allies in 1993. Obama plans to use the nonprofit group, which he features on his campaign Web site, as the model for a national service corps. He calls his Orwellian program, "Universal Voluntary Public Service."

Big Brother had nothing on the Obamas. They plan to herd American youth into government-funded reeducation camps where they'll be brainwashed into thinking America is a racist, oppressive place in need of "social change."

The pitch Public Allies makes on its Web site doesn't seem all that radical. It promises to place young adults (18-30) in paid one-year "community leadership" positions with nonprofit or government agencies. They'll also be required to attend weekly training workshops and three retreats.

In exchange, they'll get a monthly stipend of up to $1,800, plus paid health and child care. They also get a post-service education award of $4,725 that can be used to pay off past student loans or fund future education.

But its real mission is to radicalize American youth and use them to bring about "social change" through threats, pressure, tension and confrontation — the tactics used by the father of community organizing, Saul "The Red" Alinsky.

"Our alumni are more than twice as likely as 18-34 year olds to . . . engage in protest activities," Public Allies boasts in a document found with its tax filings. It has already deployed an army of 2,200 community organizers like Obama to agitate for "justice" and "equality" in his hometown of Chicago and other U.S. cities, including Cincinnati, Los Angeles, Milwaukee, New York, Phoenix, Pittsburgh and Washington. "I get to practice being an activist," and get paid for it, gushed Cincinnati recruit Amy Vincent.

Public Allies promotes "diversity and inclusion," a program paper says. More than 70% of its recruits are "people of color." When they're not protesting, they're staffing AIDS clinics, handing out condoms, bailing criminals out of jail and helping illegal aliens and the homeless obtain food stamps and other welfare.

Public Allies brags that more than 80% of graduates have continued working in nonprofit or government jobs. It's training the "next generation of nonprofit leaders" — future "social entrepreneurs."

The Obamas discourage work in the private sector. "Don't go into corporate America," Michelle has exhorted youth. "Work for the community. Be social workers." Shun the "money culture," Barack added. "Individual salvation depends on collective salvation."

"If you commit to serving your community," he pledged in his Denver acceptance speech, "we will make sure you can afford a college education." So, go through government to go to college, and then go back into government.

Many of today's youth find the pitch attractive. "I may spend the rest of my life trying to create social movement," said Brian Coovert of the Cincinnati chapter. "There is always going to be work to do. Until we have a perfect country, I'll have a job."

Not all the recruits appreciate the PC indoctrination. "It was too touchy-feely," said Nelly Nieblas, 29, of the 2005 Los Angeles class. "It's a lot of talk about race, a lot of talk about sexism, a lot of talk about homophobia, talk about -isms and phobias."

One of those -isms is "heterosexism," which a Public Allies training seminar in Chicago describes as a negative byproduct of "capitalism, white supremacy, patriarchy and male-dominated privilege."

The government now funds about half of Public Allies' expenses through Clinton's AmeriCorps. Obama wants to fully fund it and expand it into a national program that some see costing $500 billion. "We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded" as the military, he said.

The gall of it: The Obamas want to create a boot camp for radicals who hate the military — and stick American taxpayers with the bill.
Un-freakin'-believable! A brainwashed, radical force indoctrinated to hate America and loyal to Obama the Messiah, rivaling the US military in size and funding... "Universal Voluntary" is an oxymoron, and Obama has already said he thinks all high school and university kids in America should be required to sign up for this program in at least some capacity, such as 50 hours of "community service" per year as a condition of their graduation from school.

This is straight out of Mao's China and Stalinist Russia...

[kingdom2000]

Its silliness like the above where a yawn emoticon would come in handy.

[PatrickG]

Talk about Orwellian:

http://www.investors.com/editorial/editorialcontent.asp?secid=1501&status=article&id=305420655186700

Un-freakin'-believable! A brainwashed, radical force indoctrinated to hate America and loyal to Obama the Messiah, rivaling the US military in size and funding... "Universal Voluntary" is an oxymoron, and Obama has already said he thinks all high school and university kids in America should be required to sign up for this program in at least some capacity, such as 50 hours of "community service" per year as a condition of their graduation from school.

This is straight out of Mao's China and Stalinist Russia...

There's nothing objectionable in that article, Samurai, except for the borderline psychotic, fringe rantings of the article's author.

Ask Mac. Ask Sabrina.

I know my word is shot but I used to be a Limbaugh dittohead. I've met Pat Buchanan a few times via activism and half my grade school years I had conservative teachers and older friends grooming me for speechwriting or political office.

Read that article critically, man. The most damning comments provide no direct support from Obama or even covert sources in the Obama camp. It's a bloated opinion piece that assumes liberalism is bad.

STOP ASSIGNING VALUE JUDGMENTS TO BELIEF SYSTEMS. You're comparing chocolate and vanilla. Even if liberalism is mostly wrong and damaging, that doesn't make socialism or liberalism EVIL. Just incorrect. Quit confusing moral and factual correctness.

Let me try highlighting the bullshit:

Election '08: Democrats' reintroduction of militant Michelle Obama in Denver was supposed to show her softer side. But it only highlighted a radical part of her resume: Public Allies.

That doesn't sound at ALL unbiased.

He calls his Orwellian program, "Universal Voluntary Public Service."


I don't think Obama calls his program "Orwellian" and I don't think that an author calling it that is going in with an open mind.


Big Brother had nothing on the Obamas.

What does that even mean? It's a string of charged rhetorical gibberish, in part due to the use of the past tense.

They plan to herd American youth into government-funded reeducation camps where they'll be brainwashed into thinking America is a racist, oppressive place in need of "social change."


What kind of fucktard, liberal or conservative, would dispute that the country IS racist and oppressive in many regards or that social change is a worthwhile goal.

Every Republican who has run for president since 1996 has conceded these points.

Where is there ANY offense to be drawn in these insinuations?

Are you THAT fucking dense? Are you a bigot?

The pitch Public Allies makes on its Web site doesn't seem all that radical. It promises to place young adults (18-30) in paid one-year "community leadership" positions with nonprofit or government agencies. They'll also be required to attend weekly training workshops and three retreats.


Did the author expect a group to pitch themselves as radicals? Has the author given equal consideration to the idea that they aren't radicals or was he looking for a conclusion to reinforce his own prejudice?

In exchange, they'll get a monthly stipend of up to $1,800, plus paid health and child care. They also get a post-service education award of $4,725 that can be used to pay off past student loans or fund future education.


Okay... Here I'm thinking, "Sign me up for this."

But its real mission is to radicalize American youth and use them to bring about "social change" through threats, pressure, tension and confrontation — the tactics used by the father of community organizing, Saul "The Red" Alinsky.

"Our alumni are more than twice as likely as 18-34 year olds to . . . engage in protest activities," Public Allies boasts in a document found with its tax filings. It has already deployed an army of 2,200 community organizers like Obama to agitate for "justice" and "equality" in his hometown of Chicago and other U.S. cities, including Cincinnati, Los Angeles, Milwaukee, New York, Phoenix, Pittsburgh and Washington. "I get to practice being an activist," and get paid for it, gushed Cincinnati recruit Amy Vincent.

Do you think protest rallies are unamerican? Honestly, I feel a little unamerican for having never participated in one. What the fuck are people supposed to do if they don't agitate?

We have a president who unilaterally violated treaties and is wanted for questioning over accusations of being a war criminal in several allied nations and nobody will do shit about it. Nobody took Clinton's perjury seriously either.

Public Allies promotes "diversity and inclusion," a program paper says.


That's a bad thing?

More than 70% of its recruits are "people of color."

That's a bad thing?

When they're not protesting, they're staffing AIDS clinics, handing out condoms, bailing criminals out of jail and helping illegal aliens and the homeless obtain food stamps and other welfare.


My god, they sound practically like Jesus Christ. Is there anything offensive here?

Public Allies brags that more than 80% of graduates have continued working in nonprofit or government jobs. It's training the "next generation of nonprofit leaders" — future "social entrepreneurs."


So it's an effective training ground for people who want to go into public administration. Would it be ominous that over 80% of Harvard Law graduates continue working in fields which call for an expert reading of the law, as lawyers or politicians or consultants?

The Obamas discourage work in the private sector. "Don't go into corporate America," Michelle has exhorted youth. "Work for the community. Be social workers." Shun the "money culture," Barack added. "Individual salvation depends on collective salvation."


You think people should pursue more money if it's possible to do good for their community in other ways? That doesn't sound like the free market I know, the one that used to bustle on mainstreet.

There's nothing American or capitalist about many of these large corporations anyway, IMO. The minute you seek governmental or legal protections or assurances, you're not operating in the free market. A simple limited liability corporation leans more towards socialism than capitalism.

That Barack quote, meanwhile, would be just as likely to come out of the mouth of Ayn Rand as it would Karl Marx. In fact, most socialists or communists would actually dispute that quote. A true Marxist is not interested in "collective salvation", simply the salvation of the workers.

"If you commit to serving your community," he pledged in his Denver acceptance speech, "we will make sure you can afford a college education." So, go through government to go to college, and then go back into government.


Kinda like what the military does, isn't it? Does the author of this piece hate the military? It's a government job that sends you to college and tries to steer you back into government.

One of those -isms is "heterosexism," which a Public Allies training seminar in Chicago describes as a negative byproduct of "capitalism, white supremacy, patriarchy and male-dominated privilege."


It seems like a pretty radical stance to object to this kind of teaching.

I'd go so far as to say that somewhat who disputes that there's a traditional bias towards straight, rich, white males is severely out of touch with the core beliefs of our society and our traditional values.

The government now funds about half of Public Allies' expenses through Clinton's AmeriCorps. Obama wants to fully fund it and expand it into a national program that some see costing $500 billion. "We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded" as the military, he said.


Obama seems to be referring to a civilian national security force here. I'm not even sure this is the same topic.

The gall of it: The Obamas want to create a boot camp for radicals who hate the military — and stick American taxpayers with the bill.


Who said anybody hates the military? Where'd that even come from?

Seriously, Sam, do you really ascribe credibility to the race-baiting, fear mongering prejudiced sack of shit who wrote this piece?

I wouldn't have taken you for a zealot or a bigot or a conspiracy theorist.

But posting this link makes it appear that you're all three.

[the4thpip]

Wow, the Samurai's right wing buddies are really grasping for straws now. Where is a swiftboat when you really need one, eh?

[PatrickG]

I want to reiterate something:

When they're not protesting, they're staffing AIDS clinics, handing out condoms, bailing criminals out of jail and helping illegal aliens and the homeless obtain food stamps and other welfare.

I'm trying to grasp this:

Protesting is unamerican? Really?

People with AIDS don't deserve care?

You like unwanted pregnancies? Irresponsible people should have kids?

Nobody makes a mistake? (Side bar: If someone is up for BAIL, they aren't a criminal yet.)

Illehal aliens don't need help? We should let them die once they get here? It's not even remotely possible for us to round them up or send them back any more than we could catch the population of New York City with a 20 year headstart. Compassion doesn't end when someone breaks a law.

Getting homeless people fed and applying for programs that they qualify for is bad? You can object to the Homeless qualifying, I guess, but if they qualify for a program, they SHOULD have people helping them to get on it.

[ShaunN]

Dear Samurai,

Actually, if you take the invective out of the article below, almost everything in it is very appealing and makes a lot of sense. The idea of teaching kids how to be activists, to recognize and oppose injustice, and to develop a sense of social commitment is hardly "Orwellian" or even inherently "socialist" (as if socialism a bad thing). Indeed, I have a friend who defines himself as a "traditional" Conservative -i.e., he actually believes in "conserving" things such as society and family - and he has advocated a very similar government program for Canada. His basic idea is to help students with their loans by requiring them to spend a year doing public service across Canada. His idea is that this would instill a sense of civic pride and responsibility. This sounds a lot like what the Obamas are supporting. And, let me repeat, this is coming from a man who is a traditional Conservative, from a time when "conservative" meant more than just turning everything over to the market so that the rich could dominate the world even more completely.

Also, Americans should be thinking more critically about the extreme militarism that grips American society, and, as others have pointed out, it is incontestable that racism, economic oppression and inequality, and many other social ills are a large and, in some cases, growing part of the American landscape. There is certainly no shame in recognizing this and trying to do something about it.

It amazes me how the American right can take something that has so much potential to do good and, passing through a filter of fear, come out with something so negative. What exactly are people afraid of here? That their delusion of a perfect US will be shattered by unpleasant truths? That the recognition that there are things that need to be changed will somehow bring about change that is detrimental to them?

Sincerely,

Shaun


Michelle's Boot Camps For Radicals

INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY

Posted 9/4/2008

Election '08: Democrats' reintroduction of militant Michelle Obama in Denver was supposed to show her softer side. But it only highlighted a radical part of her resume: Public Allies.

IBD Series: The Audacity Of Socialism

Barack Obama was a founding member of the board of Public Allies in 1992, resigning before his wife became executive director of the Chicago chapter of Public Allies in 1993. Obama plans to use the nonprofit group, which he features on his campaign Web site, as the model for a national service corps. He calls his Orwellian program, "Universal Voluntary Public Service."

Big Brother had nothing on the Obamas. They plan to herd American youth into government-funded reeducation camps where they'll be brainwashed into thinking America is a racist, oppressive place in need of "social change."

The pitch Public Allies makes on its Web site doesn't seem all that radical. It promises to place young adults (18-30) in paid one-year "community leadership" positions with nonprofit or government agencies. They'll also be required to attend weekly training workshops and three retreats.

In exchange, they'll get a monthly stipend of up to $1,800, plus paid health and child care. They also get a post-service education award of $4,725 that can be used to pay off past student loans or fund future education.

But its real mission is to radicalize American youth and use them to bring about "social change" through threats, pressure, tension and confrontation — the tactics used by the father of community organizing, Saul "The Red" Alinsky.

"Our alumni are more than twice as likely as 18-34 year olds to . . . engage in protest activities," Public Allies boasts in a document found with its tax filings. It has already deployed an army of 2,200 community organizers like Obama to agitate for "justice" and "equality" in his hometown of Chicago and other U.S. cities, including Cincinnati, Los Angeles, Milwaukee, New York, Phoenix, Pittsburgh and Washington. "I get to practice being an activist," and get paid for it, gushed Cincinnati recruit Amy Vincent.

Public Allies promotes "diversity and inclusion," a program paper says. More than 70% of its recruits are "people of color." When they're not protesting, they're staffing AIDS clinics, handing out condoms, bailing criminals out of jail and helping illegal aliens and the homeless obtain food stamps and other welfare.

Public Allies brags that more than 80% of graduates have continued working in nonprofit or government jobs. It's training the "next generation of nonprofit leaders" — future "social entrepreneurs."

The Obamas discourage work in the private sector. "Don't go into corporate America," Michelle has exhorted youth. "Work for the community. Be social workers." Shun the "money culture," Barack added. "Individual salvation depends on collective salvation."

"If you commit to serving your community," he pledged in his Denver acceptance speech, "we will make sure you can afford a college education." So, go through government to go to college, and then go back into government.

Many of today's youth find the pitch attractive. "I may spend the rest of my life trying to create social movement," said Brian Coovert of the Cincinnati chapter. "There is always going to be work to do. Until we have a perfect country, I'll have a job."

Not all the recruits appreciate the PC indoctrination. "It was too touchy-feely," said Nelly Nieblas, 29, of the 2005 Los Angeles class. "It's a lot of talk about race, a lot of talk about sexism, a lot of talk about homophobia, talk about -isms and phobias."

One of those -isms is "heterosexism," which a Public Allies training seminar in Chicago describes as a negative byproduct of "capitalism, white supremacy, patriarchy and male-dominated privilege."

The government now funds about half of Public Allies' expenses through Clinton's AmeriCorps. Obama wants to fully fund it and expand it into a national program that some see costing $500 billion. "We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded" as the military, he said.

The gall of it: The Obamas want to create a boot camp for radicals who hate the military — and stick American taxpayers with the bill.

[KevinTBrown]

*stands up and applauds PatrickG & ShaunN*

[Corrina]

Why should now believe a word Obama says:

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/markbrickman/gG5rK5/commentary

This is from his official site.. It is a report of a obvious lie that in 1996 Palin pressured a librarian to ban books. Since some of the books on the list were not published then and that the list is a well known list of "books that have been banned" that has been around the for awhile.

It's not an obvious lie that she tried to ban books. There have been several people in her hometown who stated that she tried to do so and she did fire the librarian.

However, the list is not accurate.

[Charles RB]

Eh, he's just continuing a long Republican tradition of appropriating popular songs with neither approval of the artists or any fucking clue what the song is actually about.

Then they support the RIAA in legislation.

I would love if an artist used legislation the Repubs supported to sue them for stealing his song.


Un-freakin'-believable! A brainwashed, radical force indoctrinated to hate America

Shit, yeah, staffing AIDS centres, helping the homeless, being politically active in a democracy, getting skills you can use for jobs - FUCKING HORRIFYING.

And as Patrick effortlessly pointed out, the article you link to is an inept bit of demonisation and so obvious it's laughable.

[rick]

Talk about Orwellian:

http://www.investors.com/editorial/editorialcontent.asp?secid=1501&status=article&id=305420655186700

Un-freakin'-believable! A brainwashed, radical force indoctrinated to hate America and loyal to Obama the Messiah, rivaling the US military in size and funding... "Universal Voluntary" is an oxymoron, and Obama has already said he thinks all high school and university kids in America should be required to sign up for this program in at least some capacity, such as 50 hours of "community service" per year as a condition of their graduation from school.

This is straight out of Mao's China and Stalinist Russia...


Investors Business Daily used to be much saner then this.

[FalconX2000]

Which is the principle the EU was based on.

While I think the EU was a brilliant idea, I'm kinda concerned about about how much influence the various members have on each other. Just imagine the chaos that would occur if a coutry or 2 kept digging itself further and further into an economic abyss, dragging the Euro down with it, and the other nations needing more than a decade before they delibarated a course of action.

Why should now believe a word Obama says:

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/markbrickman/gG5rK5/commentary

This is from his official site.. It is a report of a obvious lie that in 1996 Palin pressured a librarian to ban books. Since some of the books on the list were not published then and that the list is a well known list of "books that have been banned" that has been around the for awhile.

...I cry some tears in my heart. Not for the news you bring, which is total bullshit. Not for you, for you have proven yourself loathsome and irrational time and time again. My tears mourn that humanity is capable of producing people like you.

Talk about Orwellian:

http://www.investors.com/editorial/editorialcontent.asp?secid=1501&status=article&id=305420655186700

Un-freakin'-believable! A brainwashed, radical force indoctrinated to hate America and loyal to Obama the Messiah, rivaling the US military in size and funding... "Universal Voluntary" is an oxymoron, and Obama has already said he thinks all high school and university kids in America should be required to sign up for this program in at least some capacity, such as 50 hours of "community service" per year as a condition of their graduation from school.

This is straight out of Mao's China and Stalinist Russia...

Tsk tsk, Samurai. This is disappointing.:frown:

You used to be able to fool or stump me now and then. Your presentation, if not your content, sounded logical and convincing. You can do better than this!:tongue:

[FalconX2000]

Investors Business Daily used to be much saner then this.

How much of it is owned by Walmart now?

[king mob]

Shit, yeah, staffing AIDS centres, helping the homeless, being politically active in a democracy, getting skills you can use for jobs - FUCKING HORRIFYING.

The fucking bastards. How dare people give a fuck, don't they know it's COUNTRY FIRST!! USAUSAUSA!!


And as Patrick effortlessly pointed out, the article you link to is an inept bit of demonisation and so obvious it's laughable.

The American election gets weirder & scarier each day & I'd expect more & more of tis sort of far-right scaremongering as the days go on in order to try to paint Obama as some scary radical who HATES FREEDOM.

Of course it's all bollocks as it seems people have sussed that the Democrats actually have the safe, sane option to the Republican's mixture of far-right nationalism & insanity.

[Infra-Man]

Protesting is unamerican? Really?

Of course protesting is Unamerican. You can't find one important American document that supports the idea of protesting ideas you don't agree with.

The First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Well, you know, except for that.

[Infra-Man]

Why should now believe a word Obama says:

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/markbrickman/gG5rK5/commentary

This is from his official site.. It is a report of a obvious lie that in 1996 Palin pressured a librarian to ban books. Since some of the books on the list were not published then and that the list is a well known list of "books that have been banned" that has been around the for awhile.

List is inaccurate conjecture, I'll give you that, but that's just a community blog on Obama's website, not the official stance of the Obama campaign. We don't know if the book banning thing is a lie, actually. More sources are required (Time magazine being the main source of this), but it seems like it's true. If Sarah Palin would do a press interview, we may be able to get to the bottom of it, but she is being secluded from all non-scripted appearances by the McCain campaign.

In other words: You FAIL at reading comprehension and basic reasoning skills.

EDIT:
Sam, you also fail at basic reading comprehension if you cannot identify loaded words and bias in that column you linked.

[the4thpip]

Investors Business Daily used to be much saner then this.

It's amazing how the right has gone from admiring community organizers as "a thousand points of light" under Bush sr. to ridiculing and vilifying them.

It's desperate, it's transparent and it's ugly.

[king mob]

If Sarah Palin would do a press interview, we may be able to get to the bottom of it, but she is being secluded from all non-scripted appearances by the McCain campaign.


So she's not done any interviews for any news organisation?

[the4thpip]

Oh, and Obama's lead at Rasmussen is already widening again. What little bump (bumpette? bumpkin? bumpelstiltskin) McCain got from their 3 1/2 days of hate mongering and telethon is evaporating quickly.

[Infra-Man]

So she's not done any interviews for any news organisation?

Not since being named VP, as far as I know.

[Infra-Man]

John McCain's record gets Daily Showned:

John McCain: Reformed Maverick (http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=184113&title=john-mccain-reformed-maverick)

[rick]

It's amazing how the right has gone from admiring community organizers as "a thousand points of light" under Bush sr. to ridiculing and vilifying them.

It's desperate, it's transparent and it's ugly.


One thing I have noticed about Republicans over the years, and our pal Sam is a good example of this, is that they are all in favor of whatever their leaders tell them to be in favor of, and are willing to completely abandoned those views, they’re too shallow to call beliefs, the moment their leaders tell them to blindly support something else.

[the4thpip]

John McCain's record gets Daily Showned:

John McCain: Reformed Maverick (http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=184113&title=john-mccain-reformed-maverick)

That clip should be shown in retirement homes all over the US.

[Charles RB]

The American election gets weirder & scarier each day

I'm expecting to see Servalan from Blake's 7 become the new Republican candidate and run on a campaign of ethnic cleansing at this rate. And then say Obama is against this because he's one of Blake's terrorists.

If Sarah Palin would do a press interview, we may be able to get to the bottom of it, but she is being secluded from all non-scripted appearances by the McCain campaign.

That's probably the smarter option for them - could you imagine the damage that could be done if she wasn't scripted?

[Alex Scott]

So basically, to sum up IBD's (and Samurai's?) position: community service, volunteer work, caring for those less fortunate, and working for a healthy, happy society are BAD, WRONG, and UNAMERICAN.

My God, how loathesome can you get? Samurai, get a clue: volunteers (not to mention the community organizers the Republicans gleefully dissed at the convention) represent exactly the sort of grassroots values the Right claims to adore so much. You smear these values at your -- and your party's, and your country's -- peril.

And seriously try reading Orwell sometime, and pay close attention to what Ingsoc really does. It might hit a little closer to home than you like.

[Infra-Man]

That clip should be shown in retirement homes all over the US.

It should also be shown to the media so they can shut up with the maverick stuff already. McCain was a maverick in the past, but now he's mostly a party-line Republican.

There's nothing wrong with being in step with your party, but there is something wrong about pretending to be someone you're not.

[Infra-Man]

So basically, to sum up IBD's (and Samurai's?) position: community service, volunteer work, caring for those less fortunate, and working for a healthy, happy society are BAD, WRONG, and UNAMERICAN.

My God, how loathesome can you get? Samurai, get a clue: volunteers (not to mention the community organizers the Republicans gleefully dissed at the convention) represent exactly the sort of grassroots values the Right claims to adore so much. You smear these values at your -- and your party's, and your country's -- peril.

Just as a note, at a McCain/Palin event on Friday, Palin denigrated community organizers again, to raucous glee of the assembled mouth breathers, and as McCain, standing behind her, grinned, laughed, and applauded.

[FalconX2000]

Just as a note, at a McCain/Palin event on Friday, Palin denigrated community organizers again, to raucous glee of the assembled mouth breathers, and as McCain, standing behind her, grinned, laughed, and applauded.

Comon Obama, get an ad up!

[Alex Scott]

It's especially irksome because my mom founded and, until a few years ago, ran the neighborhood association. She was, in effect, a community organizer. Just last year she helped arrange a debate between our state senate candidates. And when I got carjacked a few months ago, it was largely thanks to the network formed by the neighborhood association that I got my car back and the perps got caught in only a few hours.

My mom is a Republican.

And she's been thinking of voting for Obama.

Normally I hate getting into arguments in real life, but I may have to ask what she thinks of all this.

[FalconX2000]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqEeHdxPKIs

Joe Biden was stumping on the economy. I can see no way Obama can match this:eek: . I've watched Obama speak dozens of times on the economy and he is never this good at delivery. Biden's credentials may be on foreign policy, but his passion on bread and butter is phenomenal.

Though of course his tendency to wander off topic is evident in the clip as well.

[Sally Sensational]

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/treasures/images/at0058a.5s.jpg

I grew up surrounded by Norman Rockwell. My mom loved his artwork. He's often used by those people who look back with nostalgia to a better time.

Look at those paintings. They represent the four fundamental freedoms that all Americans should be guaranteed. Pay special attention to "Freedom from Fear" and "Freedom from Want".

Now, which party is fighting to maintain those four freedoms? Which candidate?

[Briareos]

So basically, to sum up IBD's (and Samurai's?) position: community service, volunteer work, caring for those less fortunate, and working for a healthy, happy society are BAD, WRONG, and UNAMERICAN.

My God, how loathesome can you get? Samurai, get a clue: volunteers (not to mention the community organizers the Republicans gleefully dissed at the convention) represent exactly the sort of grassroots values the Right claims to adore so much. You smear these values at your -- and your party's, and your country's -- peril.

And seriously try reading Orwell sometime, and pay close attention to what Ingsoc really does. It might hit a little closer to home than you like.

No the point was that while good when that is pretty much all that is on your resume it is kinda thin to be considered for president.

[Briareos]

Also at issue is the specific group that Obama was involved in. That group ACORN is more well known for vote fraud (signing up homeless and dead people to vote) then helping the poor and less fortunate.

[Alexx1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqEeHdxPKIs



Preach it Biden! I would have liked to have heard his entire speech. It was getting especially good at about the time it was cut off.

[Nick Soapdish]

No the point was that while good when that is pretty much all that is on your resume it is kinda thin to be considered for president.

Obama was a community organizer before Sarah Palin was elected to city council. He's done some stuff since then. To think that Obama's credentials are solely that he was a community organizer would be as idiotic as saying that Sarah Palin is only a sports broadcaster.

[Briareos]

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/treasures/images/at0058a.5s.jpg

I grew up surrounded by Norman Rockwell. My mom loved his artwork. He's often used by those people who look back with nostalgia to a better time.

Look at those paintings. They represent the four fundamental freedoms that all Americans should be guaranteed. Pay special attention to "Freedom from Fear" and "Freedom from Want".

Now, which party is fighting to maintain those four freedoms? Which candidate?

Well Obama doesn't believe in freedom from speach. He's called on the Justice department to censor free speach if it is against him. He has said nothing in defence of freedom to worship and the people he surrounds himself with have constantly attacked that freedom. He doesn't believe in freedom from fear as he offers nothing but the idea that he is such a powerful orator that he will stop the decades of terrorist activity from countries like Iran just by talking to them. And freedom from want his economic policies have been proven over and over again to lead to unemployment and economic stagnation.

[Briareos]

Obama was a community organizer before Sarah Palin was elected to city council. He's done some stuff since then. To think that Obama's credentials are solely that he was a community organizer would be as idiotic as saying that Sarah Palin is only a sports broadcaster.

So uh what has he done since then?

[Charles RB]

Comon Obama, get an ad up!

God, that should be easy to make an ad of.

"Do you do community service, help your neighbours, do good work for your local community?"

"Then McCain is laughing AT YOU."

No the point was that while good when that is pretty much all that is on your resume it is kinda thin to be considered for president.

Good thing it's not the only thing on his resume then, isn't it?

Did you actually forget he was in both the Illinois Senate for seven years and US Senate for four years, and chairman for a Senate Foreign Relations Committee subcommittee since the beginning of 2007?

And then he ran a successful candidacy campaign against a candidate who had been established by media as The One Who Will Be Candidate, hardly an easy task.

[the4thpip]

freedom from speach.

Oh, if only somebody would free us from the bad spelling and grammar in your speech.

Do you have all the people on ignore who keep telling you that speech is spelled with 2 "e"??

And "freedom from"?

Seriously. Are you a Russian spy?

[Charles RB]

So uh what has he done since then?

Illinois Senate:

* Gained bipartisan support for legislation reforming ethics and health care laws in the Illinois Senate.

* Sponsored a law increasing tax credits for low-income workers, negotiated welfare reform, and promoted increased subsidies for childcare.

* Co-chairman of the bipartisan Joint Committee on Administrative Rules, where he supported Republican Governor Ryan's payday loan regulations and predatory mortgage lending regulations aimed at averting home foreclosures

* Sponsored and led bipartisan passage of legislation to monitor racial profiling in 2003

* Became chairman of the Senate's Health and Human Services Committee

* Enacted death penalty reforms

* Re-elected to the state senate twice


United States Senate:

* Co-sponsored the Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act and Secure Fence Act.

* Introduced the Lugar–Obama initiative, which expanded the Nunn–Lugar cooperative threat reduction concept to conventional weapons, and the Coburn–Obama Transparency Act which authorized the establishment of www.USAspending.gov, a web search engine.

* Introduced the Strengthening Transparency and Accountability in Federal Spending Act of 2008 alongside other senators, including McCain.

* Co-sponsored the Honest Leadership and Open Government Act

* Introduced S. 453, a bill to criminalize deceptive practices in federal elections.

* Obama also introduced the Iraq War De-Escalation Act of 2007.

* Sponsored the "Iran Sanctions Enabling Act" supporting divestment of state pension funds from Iran's oil and gas industry, and co-sponsored legislation to reduce risks of nuclear terrorism.

* Sponsored a Senate amendment to the State Children's Health Insurance Program providing one year of job protection for family members caring for soldiers with combat-related injuries.

* Held assignments in multiple Senate Committees: Foreign Relations; Environment and Public Works; Veterans Affairs; Health, Education, Labour and Pensions; Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs

* Became Chairman of the Senate's subcommittee on European Affairs.

-

This was not hard to look up.

[ShaunN]

Dear Briareos

In response to some of your points below. Your points are in italics (sorry I've cut and paste, I still don't have the hang of how to make these quote things work):

Well Obama doesn't believe in freedom from speach. He's called on the Justice department to censor free speach if it is against him.

An example, please? Are you referring to threats and hate speech here?

He has said nothing in defence of freedom to worship and the people he surrounds himself with have constantly attacked that freedom.

I find this hard to believe. Again, please give examples. I have heard Obama call for tolerance towards people of all faiths, and I'm thinking here of the shameful incident where the young Muslim women were asked to move so they would not be in camera range at an Obama rally. But I certainly cannot find or think of any examples where Obama or the people around him have attacked freedom of worship.


He doesn't believe in freedom from fear as he offers nothing but the idea that he is such a powerful orator that he will stop the decades of terrorist activity from countries like Iran just by talking to them.

Um, this is more complicated. In general, it is the Iranians who have infinitely more to fear from the US than the reverse, and the US has been responsible for much more terrorism over the decades than Iran. The only "freedom from fear" that you seem to reference here is Americans' fff; please allow me to suggest that this is far too narrow and fails to account for the many innocent people around the world who either fear or have been victims of US or US-backed violence. Perhaps the US would be much safer from terrorism if it actually had a leader who talked rather than tried to bully. After all, violence breeds violence and acting like a bully is sure to eventually create a backlash. Terrorism (to oversimplify what is going on) is part of that backlash.

And freedom from want his economic policies have been proven over and over again to lead to unemployment and economic stagnation.

Right now, the policies pursued by the Republican administration and Congress have led to unemployment and economic stagnation in the US. These same policies -deregulation, cutting of social programs and supports, privatizing everything in sight - have been tried and have failed constantly in many different countries for the past few decades. Even if you are right about Obama's economic policies (and I don't think you are) the Republicans are offering no credible alternative at all, except more of the same - which doesn't work and has never worked.

Sincerely,

Shaun

[Infra-Man]

Also at issue is the specific group that Obama was involved in. That group ACORN is more well known for vote fraud (signing up homeless and dead people to vote) then helping the poor and less fortunate.

Actually Obama was a member of the Developing Communities Project (DCP), if I'm not mistaken, not ACORN. They endorsed Obama, but I don't recall Obama being a member of ACORN, nor does it seem like he'd endorse voter fraud. In addition, allegations of voter fraud seemed to come after he was on the legal defense team for ACORN, as far as I know.

There's actually a good piece on Obama's work as a community organizer in The New Republic worth reading.

http://tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=2e0a7836-b897-4155-864c-25e791ff0f50

Even though the headline and subhead are on the sensational side, the actual article itself paints the picture of someone who left community organizing because he wasn't able to affect change at a higher or more immediate level and believed that the best way he could help the people he worked with as a community organizer was to run for office. In other words, he ran for office because he really wanted to help people.

[Matt Doc Martin]

Also at issue is the specific group that Obama was involved in. That group ACORN is more well known for vote fraud (signing up homeless and dead people to vote) then helping the poor and less fortunate.

Unlike the Republicans, who give a bunch of money to Diebold and have all Voter Machine Errors favor them in the last election.

Spend your money wisely!

[TCJohnson]

Well Obama doesn't believe in freedom from speach. He's called on the Justice department to censor free speach if it is against him.

An example, please? Are you referring to threats and hate speech here?


He is referring to last month where some ads linking Obama to terrorist organizaions. They were put up by the American Issues Project, funded by Texas billionaire Harold Simmons.

The AIP insists they are an issue advocacy group and therefore not subject to laws dealing with campaign contributions. Obama's lawysers say that because they did release an ad geared towards Obama's defeat, then they are a political group and are subject to laws regarding contribution limits and campaign financing. Obama's lawers asked the Department of Justice to look into this.

The Obama campaign also asked his supporters to put pressure on stations not to air these ads through threat of boycot. As a result Fox news and CNN have refused to air these ads.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12816.html

[Grazzt]

He is referring to last month where some ads linking Obama to terrorist organizaions. They were put up by the American Issues Project, funded by Texas billionaire Harold Simmons.

The AIP insists they are an issue advocacy group and therefore not subject to laws dealing with campaign contributions. Obama's lawysers say that because they did release an ad geared towards Obama's defeat, then they are a political group and are subject to laws regarding contribution limits and campaign financing. Obama's lawers asked the Department of Justice to look into this.

The Obama campaign also asked his supporters to put pressure on stations not to air these ads through threat of boycot. As a result Fox news and CNN have refused to air these ads.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12816.html

Win or lose, I hope Obama sues the organization for as much as he can get. Free speech is one thing, but libel should not be tolerated.

[Loren]

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/treasures/images/at0058a.5s.jpg

I grew up surrounded by Norman Rockwell. My mom loved his artwork. He's often used by those people who look back with nostalgia to a better time.

Look at those paintings. They represent the four fundamental freedoms that all Americans should be guaranteed. Pay special attention to "Freedom from Fear" and "Freedom from Want".

Funny. If I were to identify the fundamental freedoms that all Americans should be guaranteed, I'd look to the more-than-four freedoms named in the Bill of Rights. Not the ones made up by FDR in 1941 that you want to draw special attention to.

[Loren]

Win or lose, I hope Obama sues the organization for as much as he can get. Free speech is one thing, but libel should not be tolerated.

Here's the ad in question. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m89m0pC_bpY)

It's dirty, but it's not libel. I'm not sure if there's another ad, but this one plays up his relationship with William Ayers, not foreign terrorists.

[the4thpip]

Here's the ad in question. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m89m0pC_bpY)

It's dirty, but it's not libel. I'm not sure if there's another ad, but this one plays up his relationship with William Ayers, not foreign terrorists.

Obama's campaign is not suing for libel. They're suing because the group isn't legally allowed to use their money for campaign ads.

[Grazzt]

Obama's campaign is not suing for libel. They're suing because the group isn't legally allowed to use their money for campaign ads.

Actually, I wasn't saying that he was, I'm just saying that he should based on what TCJohnson's post implied. If a lawyer like Loren doesn't think there's a case, though, then never mind.

[Grazzt]

And just for fun, Wonderella (http://nonadventures.com/2008/09/06/electoral-dysfunction/) parodies the election.

[C-Cool]

And just for fun, Wonderella (http://nonadventures.com/2008/09/06/electoral-dysfunction/) parodies the election.

The political commercial sold it for me.

"But what if we zoom in and invert the screen. Not so attractive now, ARE THEY?"

[FalconX2000]

http://www.mefeedia.com/entry/video-nothing-but-a-rabble-rouser/11253361/

...Atop a snowy peak on a cold winter's night, an old gnarled tree endures. Upon a withered branch rests a falcon, shedding frigid teardrops for humanity's idiocy.


:frown:


On the other hand, we ought to introduce them to Briareos! I'm sure they'll have a rollicking good time and stop polluting the internet for a while.:biggrin:

[Michael P]

Funny. If I were to identify the fundamental freedoms that all Americans should be guaranteed, I'd look to the more-than-four freedoms named in the Bill of Rights. Not the ones made up by FDR in 1941 that you want to draw special attention to.

Wait, so FDR made up Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Worship?

As for the Bill of Rights, help me out: Which party has overseen the arrest and imprisonment of American citizens without charges, instituted widespread wiretapping that violates the very laws they passed to let them do wiretapping, repeatedly browbeaten local libraries to obtain records of which books Americans are reading, and conducted cruel and unusual interrogations that violate the Geneva Conventions, to say nothing of basic human decency?

[the4thpip]

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/uc/20080906/stt080905.gif

[Sabrinaset]

http://www.cagle.com/working/080904/cam.jpg

http://www.cagle.com/working/080902/fairrington.jpg

http://cagle.com/working/080904/sack.jpg

[K-DoG7p7]

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h209/7p7/1220731495987.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h209/7p7/1220732001421.jpg

[Evan Waters]

I think that comparison is unfair to Peggy Hill.

[C-Cool]

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h209/7p7/1220731495987.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h209/7p7/1220732001421.jpg

These two are awesome, and somehow... too correct...

Especially with the King of the Hill reference. I can see those characters in them. And, with Hank's dad, I can see the Cindy McCain reference too well.

But I will say that Palin looks like Peggy, but acts more like Dale's wife.

[Infra-Man]

I enjoy this Monopoly-themed set:
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/9417/getoutofgaffefreesmwg1.jpg
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/4550/beautycontestty9.jpg

[the4thpip]

Democrats post big gains in voter registration

Associated Press
Published: Saturday September 6, 2008

CLAIRTON, Pa. - Five days a week, Linda Graham trolls tattered neighborhoods of this once thriving steel city outside Pittsburgh for unregistered voters she can sign up as Democrats — one of thousands of unknown volunteers whose work outside the limelight has already altered the basic arithmetic of the November election.

The epic nomination battle between Barack Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton helped put millions more Democrats on the voter rolls while Republican registration declined. Now Graham, 45, has taken three months of unpaid leave from her job at Pittsburgh's Central Blood Bank in the hope of adding to those gains before the presidential vote.

She's encouraged by the response here. "They're all feeling the crunch" of lost jobs and a sagging economy, Graham said. "But people are feeling empowered. They're feeling like, you know what, I hold a little bit of power in this."

To counter this effort, the Republicans are counting on a formidable, high-tech get-out-the-vote operation that has helped them win the past two presidential elections.

Since the last federal election in 2006, volunteers like Graham combined with the enthusiasm generated by the Obama-Clinton struggle to add more than 2 million Democrats to voter rolls in the 28 states that register voters according to party affiliation. The Republicans have lost nearly 344,000 thousand voters in the same states.

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Democrats_post_big_gains_in_voter_0906.html

[the4thpip]

“So Sambo beat the bitch!” (http://www.laprogressive.com/2008/09/05/alaskans-speak-in-a-frightened-whisper-palin-is-%E2%80%9Cracist-sexist-vindictive-and-mean%E2%80%9D/)

[C-Cool]

“So Sambo beat the bitch!” (http://www.laprogressive.com/2008/09/05/alaskans-speak-in-a-frightened-whisper-palin-is-%E2%80%9Cracist-sexist-vindictive-and-mean%E2%80%9D/)

I hope that's fake.

Not enough evidence honestly.

But, I really hope that's fake.

[Charles RB]

Most of it seems to fit what's already known or rumoured about her - and I wouldn't be surprised that the Alaskan Republicans would be vicious and vindictive, incidents of small governments abusing their power against specific people if they can get away with it aren't unknown.

[Michael P]

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Democrats_post_big_gains_in_voter_0906.html

Of course, one can't help but wonder how many of those registrations will be "lost" between now and November.

[TCJohnson]

Actually, I wasn't saying that he was, I'm just saying that he should based on what TCJohnson's post implied. If a lawyer like Loren doesn't think there's a case, though, then never mind.

I just said terrorist organization, not foriegn.

Bill Ayers was a member of an organization called the Weathermen, who were responsible for a number of bombings protesting the Viet Nam war. One police officer was killed in these bombings and another was partially blinded. Ayers never denounced his role in the bombings.

Obama and Bill Ayers have served together on a board of a foundation in Chicago.

I am still voting for Obama, but this is one thing that bothers me about him.

[Grazzt]

I just said terrorist organization, not foriegn.

Although that wouldn't have mattered, if they had actually accused him of being a member of said terrorist organization. But they didn't, so I'll drop it.

[Corrina]

Obama and Bill Ayers have served together on a board of a foundation in Chicago.

I am still voting for Obama, but this is one thing that bothers me about him.

Ayers and Obama were on the board because they were concerned with the same issues but they weren't in contact outside of the foundation. That's it. It is really grasping at straws. It's like making you responsible for everyone you came in contact with on the local school board if you also served on the school board at the same time.

[Loren]

Wait, so FDR made up Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Worship?

Perhaps you didn't finish reading my sentence:

Pay special attention to "Freedom from Fear" and "Freedom from Want".

Not the ones made up by FDR in 1941 that you want to draw special attention to.

I thought reusing Sally's language made my point sufficiently clear. Since it apparently didn't, allow me to rephrase my resposne:

"Funny. If I were to identify the fundamental freedoms that all Americans should be guaranteed, I'd look to the more-than-four freedoms named in the Bill of Rights. Not 'Freedom from Want' and 'Freedom from Fear,' made up by FDR in 1941.

]As for the Bill of Rights, help me out: Which party has overseen the arrest and imprisonment of American citizens without charges, instituted widespread wiretapping that violates the very laws they passed to let them do wiretapping, repeatedly browbeaten local libraries to obtain records of which books Americans are reading, and conducted cruel and unusual interrogations that violate the Geneva Conventions, to say nothing of basic human decency?

That's swell and all, but can't I even post about a Norman Rockwell poster without the conversation immediately turning back to the Bush administration? Heck, I wasn't even talking political parties.

[rick]

I just said terrorist organization, not foriegn.

Bill Ayers was a member of an organization called the Weathermen, who were responsible for a number of bombings protesting the Viet Nam war. One police officer was killed in these bombings and another was partially blinded. Ayers never denounced his role in the bombings.

Obama and Bill Ayers have served together on a board of a foundation in Chicago.

I am still voting for Obama, but this is one thing that bothers me about him.


Ask any Republicans you run into about Luis Carriles.

Trust me it will make you feel much better about Obama having once served on a board with an aging ex-radical.

[Michael P]

That's swell and all, but can't I even post about a Norman Rockwell poster without the conversation immediately turning back to the Bush administration? Heck, I wasn't even talking political parties.

The subject of the post you quoted was which party would protect our rights. You redefined the rights, so I rephrased the question.

Discussing this election without including the abuses and failures of the Bush administration is like discussing physics without including gravity. Or, to make a more apt analogy, inertia.

[KevinTBrown]

Ayers and Obama were on the board because they were concerned with the same issues but they weren't in contact outside of the foundation. That's it. It is really grasping at straws. It's like making you responsible for everyone you came in contact with on the local school board if you also served on the school board at the same time.

Agreed.

I went to college with Kirby Puckett and we had 2 classes together. That didn't make me a major league baseball player.

[Loren]

The subject of the post you quoted was which party would protect our rights.

I was not responding to that part of the post; that's why I didn't quote it. Instead, I was attacking her initial premise (what are the fundamental freedoms) as being faulty. You haven't said anything to rebut that.

[Loren]

I just said terrorist organization, not foriegn.

You didn't, but the Politico article you linked to did. First sentence in the article: "Sen. Barack Obama has launched an all-out effort to block a Republican billionaire’s efforts to tie him to domestic and foreign terrorists in a wave of negative television ads."

There may be an AIP ad out there linking Obama to foreign terrorists, but I can't find one yet.

[Corrina]

Agreed.

I went to college with Kirby Puckett and we had 2 classes together. That didn't make me a major league baseball player.

Well, that's not the same analogy, though, Kevin. Being classmates is not the same as serving on a board together. But my husband serves on an art foundation board. He knows the other board members but only as board members. It's not like he's done a ton of background research into what they did twenty years ago or particularly cares (well, if they had the treasurer job, maybe.)

If one of the board members turned out to be an anarchist, that would hardly make my husband an anarchist too. Just someone who had met that person in his capacity as supporting this particular art foundation.

[Michael P]

http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/4648/juneauvladivostokza3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[TCJohnson]

Well, that's not the same analogy, though, Kevin. Being classmates is not the same as serving on a board together. But my husband serves on an art foundation board. He knows the other board members but only as board members. It's not like he's done a ton of background research into what they did twenty years ago or particularly cares (well, if they had the treasurer job, maybe.)


Yeah, but Bill Ayers' story was in the paper. It wouldn't have taken a ton of background research, it would take a 60 second search. And even if your husband wasn't aware another board member was once on trial for killing a cop, somebody on the board would have been aware and the rumors would have gotten back to him.

[Paul McEnery]

Yeah, but Bill Ayers' story was in the paper. It wouldn't have taken a ton of background research, it would take a 60 second search. And even if your husband wasn't aware another board member was once on trial for killing a cop, somebody on the board would have been aware and the rumors would have gotten back to him.

So what?

Are you supposed to resign your post on a board because someone else you disapprove of is also on the board?

If that was the case, how would we ever get rid of all the Creationist whackjobs on schoolboards across the country?

Oh wait, I know what we're supposed to do. Take the Palin route and get everyone fired who disagrees with you.




Also, while we're at it, McCain is running for the same political party as George Bush, whom we know has blown up hundreds of thousands of people.

[TCJohnson]

So what?

Are you supposed to resign your post on a board because someone else you disapprove of is also on the board?

If that was the case, how would we ever get rid of all the Creationist whackjobs on schoolboards across the country?

A cop killer is quite a bit different than a creationist whackjob.

[Paul McEnery]

A cop killer is quite a bit different than a creationist whackjob.

How many of those hundreds and thousands of people that Bush killed do you think were cops?

[BnL]

A cop killer is quite a bit different than a creationist whackjob.

Did Ayers himself kill the cop?

[section 8]

Well, that's not the same analogy, though, Kevin. Being classmates is not the same as serving on a board together. But my husband serves on an art foundation board. He knows the other board members but only as board members. It's not like he's done a ton of background research into what they did twenty years ago or particularly cares (well, if they had the treasurer job, maybe.)

If one of the board members turned out to be an anarchist, that would hardly make my husband an anarchist too. Just someone who had met that person in his capacity as supporting this particular art foundation.

A better anology then
I played football in highschool, i will use three players as examples,
One Is now a lawyer
Another has gone pro
And the last is in prison on a B&E charge

I am no lawyer
I do not play pro-ball
I am not a criminal (soo tempted to say "I am not a crook")

In all honesty, all we really had in common was thed neighborhood we lived in, and a love for the game. That is IT!

Show me photos of this Ayers guy and Obama at a barbeque hanging out, it would be a different story.

but as is, yeah Kinda flimsy

[Buzz Dixon]

I think that comparison is unfair to Peggy Hill.I would vote for Peggy Hill in a heart beat if she was real.

[Arrogantcur]

HOLY FUCK!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDx80bnFrVs)

So they're putting the blame for those attacks on Carter and Clinton for...failing to do what exactly? What's the proper response when a terrorist network bombs an embassy? Indiscrimately bomb a country where they might be based and hope that one of the bombs hits them, not caring about how many innocent people you take out in the process? Invade every country in which they are based, which is a lot?

If you subscribe to that sort of logic, then Ronald Reagan--the big hero of the Republican Party--REALLY emboldened the terrorists when he pulled U.S. forces out of Lebanon in the '80s. So 9/11 was partially their fault...and oh yeah, it happened on their watch, too.

But yeah... I have nothing good to say about that video, except though Olberman is prone to say a lot of ham-fisted crap, I'm on his side when it comes to this.

Keith's gotta realize that the closer he comes to shouting about something, the less effective he is. His tone here was just right.

McCAIN IS A PIRATE!!! (http://www.tmz.com/2008/09/04/republicans-lack-heart/)

Tom Petty objected to Bush using his song "Won't Back Down" in the 2000 campaign, and he also used Orleans' "Still The One" against band co-founder John Hall's wishes.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h209/7p7/1220731495987.jpg

Yeah, that looks about right. :biggrin:

“So Sambo beat the bitch!” (http://www.laprogressive.com/2008/09/05/alaskans-speak-in-a-frightened-whisper-palin-is-%E2%80%9Cracist-sexist-vindictive-and-mean%E2%80%9D/)

Oh Christ...if it's true that she talks like that then I hope there's tape of it somewhere and it comes out in October. :evilangry:

[TCJohnson]

How many of those hundreds and thousands of people that Bush killed do you think were cops?

What does that have to do with anything?

A better anology then
I played football in highschool, i will use three players as examples,
One Is now a lawyer
Another has gone pro
And the last is in prison on a B&E charge

I am no lawyer
I do not play pro-ball
I am not a criminal (soo tempted to say "I am not a crook")


But then again, I am not saying Obama is a terrorist or cop killer.

I am just saying I am disappointed that he was willing to work with Ayers...although not so disappointed I am going to vote for McCain.

Did Ayers himself kill the cop?

Ayers was one of the top leaders of an organization that placed a anti-personel bomb filled with heavey metal staples at a park station in San Francisco. Sgt Brian McDonnell was killed in the explosion and Officer Robert Fogarty was partially blinded.

The FBI never had any proof that Bill Ayers helped planted the bomb. A FBI informant said that Bill Ayers did have really detailed information about how the bomb was made, right down to the materials used for shrapnel. They just never had any evidence to back it up.

Bill Ayers was tried for a bombings of New York City Police Headquarters in 1970, the Capitol building in 1971, and the Pentagon in 1972. His case was thrown out, however, because of FBI mishandling of the evidence. Bill Ayers has all but admitted to those bombings, however.

By the way, most of Bill Ayers (including Bill Ayers) group says that the bombing in San Francisco was planned by Bernadine Dohrn. Where is Bernadine today? Married to Bill Ayers.

So, did he kill the cop? Unknown.

[Paul McEnery]

What does that have to do with anything?

Really? You have to ask that?

Here we go then.

Which is more damning: Serving on a board that just happened to have Ayers on it, which was completely out of Obama's control; or supporting a government that willfully and without just cause murdered hundreds of thousands of people.



I am just saying I am disappointed that he was willing to work with Ayers...although not so disappointed I am going to vote for McCain.

As a member of the Senate, he's worked with people who've committed worse acts by far. Should we condemn him for that?

While we're at it, Ayers has never been convicted of anything in regards to his radical past and was, at the time Obama worked on the Woods foundation, a respected member of the Chicago community, worked with by both "liberals" and "conservatives".

Now I know this is a difficult thought for Americans to understand, having not lived through it, but there are large numbers of politicians in the world who have much more radical pasts than Ayers.

Just take Northern Ireland. There are politicians there who have connections to Catholic and Protestant paramilitary organizations. Part of the peace meant accepting that and moving on.

On the other hand, if we want to look at associations with known murderers in government, we only have to look at the host of fascist regimes -- and I use the term advisedly -- throughout Central and South America that have been supported and installed by successive American administrations, Republican and Democrat (though mostly Republican).

It does us no good to be naive about this. Nobody in politics has clean hands.

If we want to get on Obama's shit about his relationship with Ayers, then we need to get on the shit of the entire Chicago establishment, who allowed Ayers to rehabilitate himself and turn his life to good. (And personally, I'd rather he redeemed himself that just wasted what remains of his life.)

And again, if we want to get on Obama's shit about Ayers, we need to get on the shit of the American government and its relationship with Pinochet, Galtieri, Rios Montt, etc., not to mention with all the criminals convicted in the Iran-Contra scandal who went on to serve in the Bush administration.

If we can pardon Casper Weinberger, I think we can live with William Ayers.

[Charles RB]

If you subscribe to that sort of logic, then Ronald Reagan--the big hero of the Republican Party--REALLY emboldened the terrorists when he pulled U.S. forces out of Lebanon in the '80s. So 9/11 was partially their fault...and oh yeah, it happened on their watch, too.

Now THAT I missed. All the bits the video highlights happen under Democrat prezzes, yet the Beruit bombing - a direct attack on the US military, causing America to withdraw outright - isn't mentioned in it. Even though that's clearly something it should be mentioning as an example of Them attacking America and America not responding properly (i.e. not bombing someone).

But no. That can't be mentioned cos Reagan dun it.

Add that to another reason why the video was crass and exploitive.

[Corrina]

Reagan also invaded Grenada about the same time as the Beirut bombing. Can't very well pull out without going in somewhere else--where you can win easily.

[section 8]

I want to reiterate something:



I'm trying to grasp this:

Protesting is unamerican? Really?

People with AIDS don't deserve care?

You like unwanted pregnancies? Irresponsible people should have kids?

Nobody makes a mistake? (Side bar: If someone is up for BAIL, they aren't a criminal yet.).
I was with you 100% until...

IIllehal aliens don't need help? We should let them die once they get here? It's not even remotely possible for us to round them up or send them back any more than we could catch the population of New York City with a 20 year headstart. Compassion doesn't end when someone breaks a law.

First, yes, yes it does. Why do you think prison showers have no cameras

Illegal Aleins are a great strain on the economy, and resources, Not to mention they cause a commotion that makes ALL aliens (legal or no) targets

Let ME get THIS straight. Some one breaks into the country , pays no taxes, has no Social Security number, really contributes nothing to anyone save te rich bastard who empoyes them. And you want MY tax dollars to go toward ensuring they have a comfortable life here even though they aren't even supposed to be here?

And my personal favorite point as you yourself made...
It's not even remotely possible for us to round them up or send them back any more than we could catch the population of New York City with a 20 year headstart.

So we can't find them all, but we ARE expected to feed them all?:confused:

A side note to this....My Grandfather (maternal) Was 2nd Generation Mexican American, his parents entered this country legally with NOTHING! and from those humble beginnings he retired as a LT Col in the US ARMY. acollege grad, fluent (reading AND writting) in Seven languages, with a proud history of service. That is the American Dream. Not welfare..


My point is, people come to this country for a CHANCE not a check.

[Adam C]

Reagan also invaded Grenada about the same time as the Beirut bombing. Can't very well pull out without going in somewhere else--where you can win easily.

I remember reading a book about the Grenada invasion which was published long, long before Gulf War II. It's eerie how much the Reagan administration's justifications for invading, both in their dishonesty and the way they kept shifting, resemble those of the Bush administration.

[TCJohnson]

Really? You have to ask that?

Here we go then.

Which is more damning: Serving on a board that just happened to have Ayers on it, which was completely out of Obama's control; or supporting a government that willfully and without just cause murdered hundreds of thousands of people.

.


...When did I say serving on a board with Ayers was a bad as what Bush has done? When have I said I supported Bush in any way? Where have I said that this is a reason not to support Obama? In fact, I can point to many, many posts saying that I think Bush is the worse president this country has had in my life time, and that I support Obama. So I don't see your point?

Or are you saying that because I don't approve of every aspect of Obama I must be against him?

Really, Paul, that is something Samurai would say.

[Paul McEnery]

...When did I say serving on a board with Ayers was a bad as what Bush has done? .

What you're saying? No.

What AIP is saying? Absobloodylutely.

They're saying that having an association with someone who's put their radical past behind them -- just like everyone else in Chicago has that association -- is a big deal. Which it isn't.

Especially not when you put it in the context of what the current administration has been doing in front of god and everyone.

We know who Obama is, a man who's prepared to use force in international relations where necessary, but against the use of force where it isn't -- especially where it's illegal. This is what we know of the man. The AIP is trying to say that that's not who he is through this transparent smear.

Whereas it really is massively clear that McCain has backed the war in Iraq 100%, which certainly has bombed the hell out of innocent people for no good reason.

The trumped up and empty smear, or the blatant truth: which one matters?

[TCJohnson]

What you're saying? No.

What AIP is saying? Absobloodylutely.


The people who fund the AIP are the same people who funded the Swiftboat attack ads. They are a bunch of lying bastards who will do anything to make sure their side winds...I don't care what they say.

Just please don't think I agree with them.

[Adam C]

...When did I say serving on a board with Ayers was a bad as what Bush has done? When have I said I supported Bush in any way? Where have I said that this is a reason not to support Obama? In fact, I can point to many, many posts saying that I think Bush is the worse president this country has had in my life time, and that I support Obama. So I don't see your point?

Well Paul said his piece before I finished this, but for what it's worth he's right. We might as well complain about him being in the Democratic party considering Paul's point about American foreign policy in general. Obama serving on the same anti-poverty fundraiser board as Bill Ayers is a goddamn triviality, and the idea that it actually says anything about him would merely be laughable, if it was not a pathetic smear attempt.

[KevinTBrown]

The people who fund the AIP are the same people who funded the Swiftboat attack ads. They are a bunch of lying bastards who will do anything to make sure their side winds...I don't care what they say.

Just please don't think I agree with them.

And here I thought you were voting for McCain & Palin...

If you don't agree with them, then why vote for one of them?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Re0vmbtHK8

[section 8]

Gary Coleman '08 y'all

(sorry Kevin, Couldn't resist)

[LtMarvel]

I hope that's fake.

Not enough evidence honestly.

But, I really hope that's fake.
Wow, the author even backed up his reporting further...so it appears not, sadly.

[Kyuubi]

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/H/G/2/mccain-palin-anna-nicole.jpg

[Buzz Dixon]

http://sinfest.net/comikaze/comics/2008-09-07.gif

[section 8]

If this were the case, she'd have my vote.

[LtMarvel]

Once again, GOP makes history with their 2008 VP choice (http://www.adn.com/opinion/story/516641.html). [Palin's lawyer] had the governor file an ethics complaint against herself, in a bid to turn the entire matter over to the state Personnel Board, which would hire an independent investigator.


Without doing the research, I'm going to say that Palin is the first VP candidate to file an ethics complaint against him/herself.

[Royal]

“So Sambo beat the bitch!” (http://www.laprogressive.com/2008/09/05/alaskans-speak-in-a-frightened-whisper-palin-is-%E2%80%9Cracist-sexist-vindictive-and-mean%E2%80%9D/)

What would Sambo do to someone well versed in Oglethorpe?

[Samurai]

Once again, GOP makes history with their 2008 VP choice (http://www.adn.com/opinion/story/516641.html).

Without doing the research, I'm going to say that Palin is the first VP candidate to file an ethics complaint against him/herself.

She can't have an Independent investigator without it. If she doesn't do it, the leader of the investigation is the current Democrat running the show, who has already hinted that he's going to play politics with it (by stating he'd release the investigation's results 3 days before the Nov election...) So it's just a formality.

[the4thpip]

...When did I say serving on a board with Ayers was a bad as what Bush has done? When have I said I supported Bush in any way? Where have I said that this is a reason not to support Obama? In fact, I can point to many, many posts saying that I think Bush is the worse president this country has had in my life time, and that I support Obama. So I don't see your point?

Or are you saying that because I don't approve of every aspect of Obama I must be against him?

Really, Paul, that is something Samurai would say.

No, it's really not. I think you're focusing too much on each individual post instead of reading them in context and progression. All Paul did was answer your question (a question that was a little weird, as one usually does not ask for clarification of a rhetorical question).

[Crowley]

Daily Show points out the hypocrisy of the right wing spin on Palin:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=184086&title=sarah-palin-gender-card

[PatrickG]

Illegal Aleins are a great strain on the economy, and resources, Not to mention they cause a commotion that makes ALL aliens (legal or no) targets

Let ME get THIS straight. Some one breaks into the country , pays no taxes, has no Social Security number, really contributes nothing to anyone save te rich bastard who empoyes them. And you want MY tax dollars to go toward ensuring they have a comfortable life here even though they aren't even supposed to be here?

It was a bunch of crooked, Cold War politicians who even decided that you needed the government's permission to come to and work in this country.

For most of this country's history, anyone who could physically get here could live and work here.

ALL immigration was legal.

These "illegals" are what make our economy work. I'm much more concerned that they're being exploited than the unthinkable idea that they're exploiting us.

[PatrickG]

She can't have an Independent investigator without it. If she doesn't do it, the leader of the investigation is the current Democrat running the show, who has already hinted that he's going to play politics with it (by stating he'd release the investigation's results 3 days before the Nov election...) So it's just a formality.

So can she choose to release the results three days AFTER the Nov election?

[K-DoG7p7]

It was a bunch of crooked, Cold War politicians who even decided that you needed the government's permission to come to and work in this country.

For most of this country's history, anyone who could physically get here could live and work here.

ALL immigration was legal.

These "illegals" are what make our economy work. I'm much more concerned that they're being exploited than the unthinkable idea that they're exploiting us.

dont forget.. section 8 is at least partly native.. so he thinks EVERYONE is an illigal immigrant..

[Pauly T]

Daily Show points out the hypocrisy of the right wing spin on Palin:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=184086&title=sarah-palin-gender-card

This is why I love The Daily Show and why I hate the "mainstream media". Why doesn't anyone at any network edit a package like this and run it every hour on the hour?

[PatrickG]

Oh...

And IMO the issues with illegals are that they may be exploited for cheap labor and that they don't pay taxes.

I don't think they "take" jobs. Many jobs are simply not filled by Americans or our workers are not willing to work for a reasonable living wage, holding out for more. I TOTALLY believe in workers competing to keep the price down for employers so long as it remains a viable living wage. If an illegal is willing to do a job for $12-20 an hour that a native wants $25-35 for, the native deserves to lose the job.

IMHO, we need more competition. If we had that, our CEOs wouldn't make such bloated, enormous salaries.

We have too many provisions and emotional hang-ups against people who say, "I can do that job and I will do it for less." People who say that and have the qualifications and experience necessary deserve to be applauded as long as they're able to make a modest living at it. And if you want to insure yourself against illegals, put a cap on how low they can offer.

I'm personally a believer in freezing the current minimum wage and providing supplemental workfare to adults who are not dependents or receiving other forms of assistance. This workfare would be paid for by the top 5% of America's wealth so as to avoid handing the burden of an increased minimum wage to America's entrepreneurs. (An increased minimum wage otherwise disproportionately favors public sector and large corporate jobs; the little guy can't afford to pay the heightened wage or the new taxes and will have to cut back in ways that operations with large or unlimited sources of capital wouldn't. I think it's essential to the American idea of 'fair play' and the 'free market' that we place the greatest burden on those at the top and the lowest burden on the new guy to encourage market leadership to turn over and competition to remain perpetually fresh.)

Naturally, one condition for workfare would be being a citizen.

I don't think anybody from Latin America should be turned away at our borders but instead we should have a system in place to make sure that these people, provided they have no outstanding debts with the authorities back home, are given a haven of both freedom and responsibility to enjoy while they are here. They are not citizens and thus those freedoms and responsibilities should be limited by this factor.

And if you want to get technical, the United States really owes Mexico Texas back and all the wealth Texas has brought to Americans. It was our citizens who invaded, stole the land, broke free from Mexico and then conveniently joined the United States.

So as long as we keep Texas, I think we should give the option to compete in the labor market to any Mexican who seeks it.

[FalconX2000]

As for the Bill of Rights, help me out: Which party has overseen the arrest and imprisonment of American citizens without charges, instituted widespread wiretapping that violates the very laws they passed to let them do wiretapping, repeatedly browbeaten local libraries to obtain records of which books Americans are reading, and conducted cruel and unusual interrogations that violate the Geneva Conventions, to say nothing of basic human decency?

The Green Party!



-triple snip-

Nice!:biggrin:



http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/6813/nonsenseargumentaz2.png (http://imageshack.us)

[FalconX2000]

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Democrats_post_big_gains_in_voter_0906.html

2 million? That's not bad at all. At first I was thinking that's still a fraction of 1% of people in America (300 million or so), but then I realised I was counting babies, children, teenagers and those who can't or don't vote.

Given that voter turnout in 2004, the highest ever, was 122,294,978, 2 million new voters plus the lost Republicans about tips it 2% in favour of the Dems. That's alot, even when we're not counting the record turnouts the Dems have already been generating.

[FalconX2000]

She can't have an Independent investigator without it. If she doesn't do it, the leader of the investigation is the current Democrat running the show, who has already hinted that he's going to play politics with it (by stating he'd release the investigation's results 3 days before the Nov election...) So it's just a formality.

You're wrong on 2 counts.

Firstly, the date for the release of results was set before Palin was even being considered for the position of VP. The closeness of that date to election day is entirely coincidental.

Secondly, the date has already been moved up (after she was selected). It should be coming out on October 10th.

[the4thpip]

Counting the time since Sarah P. last spoke to the press. (http://palincounter.blogspot.com/)

[TCJohnson]

Oh...

And IMO the issues with illegals are that they may be exploited for cheap labor and that they don't pay taxes.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/14/politics/main549153.shtml

[TCJohnson]

And here I thought you were voting for McCain & Palin...

If you don't agree with them, then why vote for one of them?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Re0vmbtHK8

We are getting our AIPs mixed up. We were talking about the American Issues Project that made the ad that linked Obama to Ayers.

And no, I am a Obama supporter and don't see that changing before the election.

[Buzz Dixon]

It was a bunch of crooked, Cold War politicians who even decided that you needed the government's permission to come to and work in this country.

For most of this country's history, anyone who could physically get here could live and work here.

ALL immigration was legal.

These "illegals" are what make our economy work. I'm much more concerned that they're being exploited than the unthinkable idea that they're exploiting us."ALL immigration was legal"?!?!? Ever hear of the Chinese exclusions acts? Or similar laws aimed against the Irish in the early 19th century? Or quotas placed on Italians and Eastern Europeans (=koff-koff= Jews =koff-koff=) in the early 20th?

[Buzz Dixon]

So can she choose to release the results three days AFTER the Nov election?Apparently the law is such that if Sarah Palin as Governor doesn't appoint the independent investigator, it will give the Alaskan Democrats the chance to run the show.

[Charles RB]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/14/politics/main549153.shtml

I didn't actually know that happened.

"ALL immigration was legal"?!?!? Ever hear of the Chinese exclusions acts? Or similar laws aimed against the Irish in the early 19th century? Or quotas placed on Italians and Eastern Europeans (=koff-koff= Jews =koff-koff=) in the early 20th?

Yeah, I had no idea what Patrick was talking about there - the US government had been placing quotas and bans on immigrants long before the Cold War, especially the "wrong sort" of immigrants.

[section 8]

dont forget.. section 8 is at least partly native.. so he thinks EVERYONE is an illigal immigrant..

My Grandmother used to say "salt-water wetbacks" in referance to any non natives, she's the one who married the mexican american.

[TCJohnson]

I didn't actually know that happened.
.

I didn't realize how old that article was.

In this more current one, they estimated that the IRS collected 9 billion dollars in taxes from illegal aliens in 2005.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-04-10-immigrantstaxes_N.htm

[PatrickG]

"ALL immigration was legal"?!?!? Ever hear of the Chinese exclusions acts? Or similar laws aimed against the Irish in the early 19th century? Or quotas placed on Italians and Eastern Europeans (=koff-koff= Jews =koff-koff=) in the early 20th?

Those totally make the current attitudes toward Mexico on immigration sound non-racist.

I had ancestors before this country's revolution, both native and colonial. I had ancestors who came over on boats.

My great grandfather Rosario had to fight against deportation or internment in WWII by relying on the help of his cosa nostra cousins leaning on the feds. He was abandoned in NYC at age 12.

IMHO, citizenship should require some work, particularly for people who move to a place as an adult.

But I think people should be able live and travel and work wherever they please.

The sovereignty of nations should take a back seat to the sovereignty of the individual. Without the latter, the former is a tyrannical sham.

[section 8]

It was a bunch of crooked, Cold War politicians who even decided that you needed the government's permission to come to and work in this country.

For most of this country's history, anyone who could physically get here could live and work here.

ALL immigration was legal.

These "illegals" are what make our economy work. I'm much more concerned that they're being exploited than the unthinkable idea that they're exploiting us.
How exactly do they make the economy work? ( i must hear this one)
aside from the fact that they pay no taxes, all the jobs are going over seas anyway, which makes the crunch that much more difficult.

Don't put the word "illegals" in quotation marks, it is neither funny nor accurate.
According to the letter of the law the are not here legally and are IN FACT Illegal aliens.

Just because a law is recent, doesn't make it null-and -void. ad even if the authors of such laws were corrupt, and self serving doesn't make it a bad idea.
we NEED some degree of control, and documentation of who enters this country

(I will not insult your intelligence by mentioning the obvious national security risks of a free for all immigration)

Remember Cuba? When we began granting asylum to refugees from Cuba, Castro saw it as an opportunity to clear out his prisons of all types prisoners, not just political ones (not unlike Europe in the early days of America,)

Without the need for regulation the door would be open for criminals to come here , and yes, exploit the system (road to hell-good intentions and all that)

Not blaming the Immigrants themselves, but we can't please everyone on this issue, and charity begins at home

[PatrickG]

Incidentally, my point is that our modern idea of "border security" isn't a traditional American value.

The examples we have of less sweeping immigration law are a bit scary and not a tradition to emulate.

Doesn't mean we should play dead where our national interests and the welfare of American workers is concerned.

But we need a new paradigm.

[PatrickG]

How exactly do they make the economy work? ( i must hear this one)
aside from the fact that they pay no taxes, all the jobs are going over seas anyway, which makes the crunch that much more difficult.

Dont put the word "illegals" in qoutation marks, it is neither funny nor acurate.
According to the letter of the law the are not here legally and are IN FACT Illegal aliens.

Just because a law is recent, doesn't make it nul-and -void. ad even if the authors of such laws were corrupt, and self serving doesn't make it a bad idea.
we NEED some degree of cxontrol, and documentation of who enters this country

(I will not insult your intellegence by mentioning the obvios nat'l security risks of a free for all immigration)

Remember Cuba? When we begain granting asylm to refugees from Cuba, Catro saw it as an opprotunity to clear out his prisons of all types prisoners, not just political ones (not un-like Europe in the early days of America,)

Without the need for regulation the door would be open for criminals to come here , and yes, exploit the system (road to hell-good intentions and all that)

Not blaming the Immigrants themselves, but we can't please everyone on this issue, and charity begins at home

I question whether determining where an individual works or lives is subject to the higher law from which codified law derives its authority.

Hence, I not only refer to "illegal" immigrants in quotes. There's also "the war on drugs".

And "social security" if only because it's such an abstract concept that I'll ever see it.

[PatrickG]

Oh! And I agree that background checks and criminal records need to be factored in.

But our general resistance to Mexicans crossing the border legitimately is why they jump the fence... and it creates an infrastructure of human smuggling that makes it easier, not harder, for their criminals to come to this country.

[section 8]

I question whether determining where an individual works or lives is subject to the higher law from which codified law derives its authority.

Hence, I not only refer to "illegal" immigrants in quotes. There's also "the war on drugs".

And "social security" if only because it's such an abstract concept that I'll ever see it.

Well on those other to quotations are appropiate, and funny

But to use quotes on "illegal" (be it a person, subtance, or extrodinaraly flamboyantly colored pants) is not a matter of interpritation (unless you are a supreme court justice)

Example:
pot is not "illegal", it's illegal, (though if it should be or not is a different story, but point in fact is it IS not lawfull )

[the4thpip]

Well on those other to quotations are appropiate, and funny

But to use quotes on "illegal" (be it a person, subtance, or extrodinaraly flamboyantly colored pants) is not a matter of interpritation (unless you are a supreme court justice)

Example:
pot is not "illegal", it's illegal, (though if it should be or not is a different story, but point in fact is it IS not lawfull )

http://www.medibuero.de/attachment/39b520617b75d0e45fa5eb4f5da202aa/6c1e2681cd140480826eba7addd87540/kmi.jpg

[section 8]

und keine Eier!!

was ist los?

[section 8]

Incidentally, my point is that our modern idea of "border security" isn't a traditional American value.

The examples we have of less sweeping immigration law are a bit scary and not a tradition to emulate.

Doesn't mean we should play dead where our national interests and the welfare of American workers is concerned.

But we need a new paradigm.

Agreed 100%
The Bureaucracy, and red tape in place to keep people from entering the country legally needs some serious trimming,
I had a friend who had an idea, if a citizen of Mexico wants to come to America. assuming they are able bodied w/ no criminal record let them join the military, upon honorable discharge they will receive full citizenship not just a green card
that way


1 they have secure employment

2 they have access to education,and vocational training (though some English courses may be needed to ensure accurate communication)

3)they would recieve Medical, Dental, legal services (JAG), Etc

4)they would get to live on barracks where they would be able to adjust to American culture (rather than having to learn by the seat of their pants)

It sounded like a good point to me, but I'm certain there are drawbacks.

[the4thpip]

Agreed 100%
The Bureaucracy, and red tape in place to keep people from entering the country legally needs some serious trimming,
I had a friend who had an idea, if a citizen of Mexico wants to come to America. assuming they are able bodied w/ no criminal record let them join the military, upon honorable discharge they will receive full citizenship not just a green card
that way


1 they have secure employment

2 they have access to education,and vocational training (though some English courses may be needed to ensure accurate communication)

3)they would recieve Medical, Dental, legal services (JAG), Etc

4)they would get to live on barracks where they would be able to adjust to American culture (rather than having to learn by the seat of their pants)

It sounded like a good point to me, but I'm certain there are drawbacks.

If you do that, the neocons will consider the troops even more expendable than they already do.

[K-DoG7p7]

4)they would get to live on barracks where they would be able to adjust to American culture (rather than having to learn by the seat of their pants)


yeaaaah... Barracks culture is like a heartbeat away from /b/ culture :tongue:

[rick]

If you do that, the neocons will consider the troops even more expendable than they already do.


How is that even possible?

[section 8]

http://www.medibuero.de/attachment/39b520617b75d0e45fa5eb4f5da202aa/6c1e2681cd140480826eba7addd87540/kmi.jpg

no seriously pip, was ist los?

[the4thpip]

no seriously pip, was ist los?

It's a German movement that is making the same point PatrickG was making here: No human being is illegal. It's degrading to call them that.

[section 8]

well carrot top should be outlawed

it is an illegal presence of corse no person is themselves illegal. (but we could argue simantics forever)

i'm not saying "throw them out" i'm saying "make them taxpayres"

If they want to be part of this country, great make them part of the country, compleatly!


this of corse will never take place too many people in power or atleast with influance benefit from the cheap labor.
And if ne Employee complains about work conditions, back to Mexiclo they go.

[Evan Waters]

well carrot top should be outlawed

hey i'm not saying "throw them out" i'm saying " make em taxpayers"

It's worth pointing out that a number of illegal immigrants do pay taxes, using IRS Tax Numbers.

[the4thpip]

It's worth pointing out that a number of illegal immigrants do pay taxes, using IRS Tax Numbers.

There've been links to two informative articles about that on the previous page.

[Black Atom]

It's a German movement that is making the same point PatrickG was making here: No human being is illegal. It's degrading to call them that.

But not inaccurate. Millions have managed to emigrate legally under the same desperate circumstances.

[section 8]

It's worth pointing out that a number of illegal immigrants do pay taxes, using IRS Tax Numbers.

Yes and Federal law prohibits the use of the tax information for deportatin
......but not for granting them legal status (see where i'm goiong?)

[FalconX2000]

It's a German movement that is making the same point PatrickG was making here: No human being is illegal. It's degrading to call them that.

So what do we call them? Illegally present residents?

[the4thpip]

But not inaccurate. Millions have managed to emigrate legally under the same desperate circumstances.

Lots of terms are accurate but still tacky and degrading.

[the4thpip]

So what do we call them? Illegally present residents?

AAASM. Americans Awaiting to be Accepted as Such by The Man.

[section 8]

I doubt the illegals are to worried about the term being degrading, i'm sure it isn't even in their top ten,

(as i said it's simantics)

[Michael P]

AAASM. Americans Awaiting to be Accepted as Such by The Man.

Oh, I *like* that one.

[section 8]

AAASM. Americans Awaiting to be Accepted as Such by The Man.

That could appy to almost any non-white BTW

[Buzz Dixon]

Undocumented worker is the most accurate description.

The problem is not that the majority of them are from south of the border (though plenty come from Asia and the Middle East with good sized representations from the Caribbean, Europe, and Canada).

Their ethnicity and culture is not the source of the problem.

The source of the problem is that (a) the U.S. government does not know who they are or where they are (b) while the typical undocumented worker's take home pay is equal to a documented worker's take home pay in the same job, the employer is pocketing money that should be going to tax coffers, social security, health insurance, etc.

When undocumented workers have to access public funds -- emergency rooms are the most notorious example but even using public streets when you think about it -- they are taking out of the system without putting anything in. The undocumented worker is not the one causing that problem, it is the employer causing the problem.

I think we should have a guest worker program so people can come here to work without having to apply for formal immigration status; it needs to be backed with real teeth in punishing employers who hire undocumented workers. I think such a solution would do a great deal to eliminate the current problem because employers would have no great incentive to hire undocumented workers over documented ones at that point.

[section 8]

My point, in other, (and better) words
Thanks Buzz

[Arrogantcur]

First, yes, yes it does. Why do you think prison showers have no cameras

God DAMN.

If you think petty thieves or drug users and whoever else gets arrested for trivial crimes deserve to be raped, then I hope you one day have the pleasure of finding yourself in a prison shower surrounded by horny guys who are bigger than you, and you find out firsthand EXACTLY what it is you are wishing on those people.

I'd find you less disturbing if you were in favour of the death penalty. Executions, at least, are eventually over and the prisoner is out of their misery. Rape, on the other hand, goes on indefinitely. It is a form of torture, one of the worst forms of torture in my view.

[Nick Soapdish]

Undocumented worker is the most accurate description.

The problem is not that the majority of them are from south of the border (though plenty come from Asia and the Middle East with good sized representations from the Caribbean, Europe, and Canada).

Their ethnicity and culture is not the source of the problem.

The source of the problem is that (a) the U.S. government does not know who they are or where they are (b) while the typical undocumented worker's take home pay is equal to a documented worker's take home pay in the same job, the employer is pocketing money that should be going to tax coffers, social security, health insurance, etc.

When undocumented workers have to access public funds -- emergency rooms are the most notorious example but even using public streets when you think about it -- they are taking out of the system without putting anything in. The undocumented worker is not the one causing that problem, it is the employer causing the problem.

I think we should have a guest worker program so people can come here to work without having to apply for formal immigration status; it needs to be backed with real teeth in punishing employers who hire undocumented workers. I think such a solution would do a great deal to eliminate the current problem because employers would have no great incentive to hire undocumented workers over documented ones at that point.

However, the ethnicity and culture are the main sources of aggravation at the problem. Or at least, it's what gets played up the most.

And they are paying taxes into the system, not just their employers' pockets. I wouldn't be surprised if some employers are just pocketing the money, but tax fraud is a lot more serious than merely having undocumented workers.

[Buzz Dixon]

And they are paying taxes into the system, not just their employers' pockets. I wouldn't be surprised if some employers are just pocketing the money, but tax fraud is a lot more serious than merely having undocumented workers.Sales tax, traffic tolls, pass-along-taxes hidden in rent and purchases, yes. But not income tax, social security, unemployment, or health insurance. Not only is the state and its citizens cheated, but the undocumented worker as well. The employer is the only one who benefits.

[Evan Waters]

Again, the tax numbers are FOR paying income taxes.

[Nick Soapdish]

Sales tax, traffic tolls, pass-along-taxes hidden in rent and purchases, yes. But not income tax, social security, unemployment, or health insurance. Not only is the state and its citizens cheated, but the undocumented worker as well. The employer is the only one who benefits.

No, they are paying social security and income tax.

[Charles RB]

I dunno, I'm with Buzz on this - the worker's not the problem, the employer is. Target the employer, and give the worker the ability to work in the US legally. Everyone's happy except the guy exploiting migrant labour and I don't care about him.

[Buzz Dixon]

No, they are paying social security and income tax.No, undocumented workers aren't. That's the very definition of "undocumented." The employers are pocketing the differences, which is why there will be no resolution of the matter until employers are targeted more stringently.

Manuel is a documented worked, and for every $100 he makes, Uncle Sam takes out $20 through payroll contributions, so his take home pay is $80.

Chang is an undocumented worker and his boss pays him $80, pocketing the difference as either outright graft and corruption or in cost savings passed along to clients/consumers.

The employer has a greater financial benefit in hiring an undocumented worked than a documented one. That's why it happens.

[PatrickG]

No, undocumented workers aren't. That's the very definition of "undocumented." The employers are pocketing the differences, which is why there will be no resolution of the matter until employers are targeted more stringently.

Manuel is a documented worked, and for every $100 he makes, Uncle Sam takes out $20 through payroll contributions, so his take home pay is $80.

Chang is an undocumented worker and his boss pays him $80, pocketing the difference as either outright graft and corruption or in cost savings passed along to clients/consumers.

The employer has a greater financial benefit in hiring an undocumented worked than a documented one. That's why it happens.

In most cases I've been aware of, the worker supplies a social that is probably somebody else's and the employer pays the tax and the worker is paying into a real person's social security, not there's.

There's a lot of talk of undocumented workers but I suspect the prevalence of "misdocumented workers" is higher.

In fact, I know a few people who discovered that illegals had been paying into their social security.

[mattx110]

No, undocumented workers aren't. That's the very definition of "undocumented." The employers are pocketing the differences, which is why there will be no resolution of the matter until employers are targeted more stringently.

Manuel is a documented worked, and for every $100 he makes, Uncle Sam takes out $20 through payroll contributions, so his take home pay is $80.

Chang is an undocumented worker and his boss pays him $80, pocketing the difference as either outright graft and corruption or in cost savings passed along to clients/consumers.

The employer has a greater financial benefit in hiring an undocumented worked than a documented one. That's why it happens.
Regardless of the validity of this, I think we can agree that rounding them up and shipping them out is a stupid xenophobic and impossibly wasteful in terms of financials strategy. Amnesty has somehow become a dirty word, when that's exactly what the US needs to be offering, not as incentive for people to come over illegally, but to take away one reason for them to come over illegally, and take away the fear of INS (sorry, outdated info, I mean Homeland security and border patrol, the people who take folks off to fricken Guantanamo Bay), so we don't have people living in fear of their employer and the gov't. I don't want to say we need "immigration reform", because usually when a politician says he's going to reform something, he doesn't wind up making it better, but we need to rethink the way national security plays into this, and the way globalization and unions play into the situation.
We all know workers are being screwed, right? So we need to fix it in a way that doesn't violate international or national human rights laws and agreements.
And Lou Dobbs can go tape his mouth shut, while we're at it.

[PatrickG]

I'm not really sure workers ARE being screwed, per se.

[Michael P]

I'm not really sure workers ARE being screwed, per se.

Then you don't really know very much about the subject. Do some reading.

[Buzz Dixon]

Amnesty has been tried a couple of times and it doesn't work; it only conveys the impression the government will eventually blink on the matter. Every time an amnesty has been granted in the past (and there's been what, at least three, maybe more since Reagan?), even more undocumented workers come in.

We need a guest worker program. The mechanics of it need to be worked out. For instance, we can say that a child born of a guest worker in the U.S. is not a U.S. citizen, but that doesn't alter the circumstances of the child growing up in a U.S. culture. What happens when a U.S. citizen marries a guest worker and they have a child?

We could allow the children of guest workers to stay in the U.S. as guest workers themselves, but that only begs for problems re 2nd class citizenships, etc.

Say we pass a law preventing anyone who has entered the U.S. on a guest worker visa from obtaining U.S. citizenship, but give citizenship to their children born in the U.S. What happens if the parents want to go home; can the kids return to the U.S. as adults? Or do we have a cut off date: Say any child whose parents take him out of the country under the age of 16 loses his citizenship; and/or has to apply to have it reinstated NLT 25th birthday?

Undocumented workers get jobs because somebody is making money off of them. If we gave everybody who wanted a chance to be a guest worker provided they pass a preliminary screening (including fingerprints for criminal check), then there would be no incentive to create bogus documentation for most of them. The INS could still conduct sweeps to check IDs and fingerprints, but no documented worker would have to fear that. Once all U.S. workers -- guest, immigrant, or native born -- were documented, no one would profit off undocumented workers.

Perhaps we should throw in some draconian mesures to keep employers in line, like if the INS find undocumented workers in a Wal-Mart the entire store and its inventory are confiscated, or if someone hires an undocumented nanny and it's discovered, they lose their house.

[Paul McEnery]

We need a guest worker program. .

Quite right. We've got a ludicrously classist system where we'll give guest worker visas to techies and executives, but we need workers at the bottom end of the scale even more.

And there's no reason not to treat them with the same degree of dignity. If they find that they put down roots here, then make them eligible to upgrade to a green card or citizenship. Why the hell not.

National borders are becoming increasingly meaningless, and it's not as if America is same as it started as an experiment in intention community. To that extent, the ideals of freedom have gone round the world, in many cases being improved upon. Why be stuck in the past?

[KevinTBrown]

And getting back to the election....

Charles Gibson will interview Palin...... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080907/ap_on_el_pr/palin;_ylt=AvtKfLQCCypMCj0uFTFgsUZsnwcF)

.....but it'll be a few days. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080907/pl_nm/usa_politics_palin_media_dc;_ylt=Ar7W.ov4ugBpg0uqu tKBnmRsnwcF)

Palin has foreign affairs experience? (http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080907/pl_politico/13222;_ylt=AueyWnOpl8aR7EQcaWeXWPFsnwcF)

And McCain, unsurprisingly, gets his post con bounce. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080907/pl_politico/13228;_ylt=AmaQTS3zbLPMJ4bDoAgevMRsnwcF)

[LtMarvel]

We need a guest worker program. The mechanics of it need to be worked out. For instance, we can say that a child born of a guest worker in the U.S. is not a U.S. citizen, but that doesn't alter the circumstances of the child growing up in a U.S. culture. What happens when a U.S. citizen marries a guest worker and they have a child?
.
To my knowledge, we can't say that a child born of a guest worder in the US is not a US citizen. If a child is born in the US, that child is entitled to US citizenship (unless the parents were in the US on diplomatic stuff).

[Tetsuo_man]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politics/2008163431_palin070.html

[Infra-Man]

We got less than 60 days to election day.

Make sure you're registered.

[Infra-Man]

2 million? That's not bad at all. At first I was thinking that's still a fraction of 1% of people in America (300 million or so), but then I realised I was counting babies, children, teenagers and those who can't or don't vote.

Given that voter turnout in 2004, the highest ever, was 122,294,978, 2 million new voters plus the lost Republicans about tips it 2% in favour of the Dems. That's alot, even when we're not counting the record turnouts the Dems have already been generating.

What I find most interesting about those numbers is that it's more than 2 million in just 28 states that that register voters according to party affiliation. Chock in the other 22 states and any party switches or new registrations that took place in 2006, and there may be as many as 3 million or more new people registered as Democrats since the 2004 election.

[TCJohnson]

And Gallup is the ONLY poll both parties agree with.

Unfortunately, gallup has McCain ahead.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/110050/Gallup-Daily-McCain-Moves-Ahead-48-45.aspx

Really don't understand how they could be even close.

[mattx110]

I'm not really sure workers ARE being screwed, per se.
If someone is making money, workers are being screwed.

-friendly message from your friendly commie.

[KevinTBrown]

Unfortunately, gallup has McCain ahead.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/110050/Gallup-Daily-McCain-Moves-Ahead-48-45.aspx

Really don't understand how they could be even close.

They're not polling people under the age of 30.

[section 8]

God DAMN.

If you think petty thieves or drug users and whoever else gets arrested for trivial crimes deserve to be raped, then I hope you one day have the pleasure of finding yourself in a prison shower surrounded by horny guys who are bigger than you, and you find out firsthand EXACTLY what it is you are wishing on those people.

I'd find you less disturbing if you were in favour of the death penalty. Executions, at least, are eventually over and the prisoner is out of their misery. Rape, on the other hand, goes on indefinitely. It is a form of torture, one of the worst forms of torture in my view.

is there a "YABsies award for "can't take a joke?"
cuz i nominate this guy

that is the difference between you and i, even though i may make a joke in bad tastes, i wuldn't wish rape on anyone, let alone some guy on the internet i've never met.

[FalconX2000]

I dunno, I'm with Buzz on this - the worker's not the problem, the employer is. Target the employer, and give the worker the ability to work in the US legally. Everyone's happy except the guy exploiting migrant labour and I don't care about him.

The employers are the worst offenders, but its not like the workers don't know they're breaking the law.


And I'm curious. A slow climb that is halted I can understand, but how do these numbers keep swinging back and forth? People don't keep flipping their minds. They might do it once, but I would think the odds start nosediving from there.

[Suzanne]

Unfortunately, gallup has McCain ahead.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/110050/Gallup-Daily-McCain-Moves-Ahead-48-45.aspx

Really don't understand how they could be even close.Neither can I except perhaps that Obama's not aggressive enough or Joe Klein's right about him not defining his opponent early enough. Here in MD during the Olympics I saw more McCain ads. I don't know what to make of these polls. Some show McCain leading, others with Obama on top. I hope Kevin's right in that younger voters aren't represented in these. I was surprised that McCain go the bump he did and that GOP convention ratings were just as high (if not higher) than Obama's big night.

[Drumore]

Neither can I except perhaps that Obama's not aggressive enough or Joe Klein's right about him not defining his opponent early enough. Here in MD during the Olympics I saw more McCain ads. I don't know what to make of these polls. Some show McCain leading, others with Obama on top. I hope Kevin's right in that younger voters aren't represented in these. I was surprised that McCain go the bump he did and that GOP convention ratings were just as high (if not higher) than Obama's big night.
Palin is "new" and already getting a bit of celebrity status -- so it could be a temporary bump (I hope), but we can't underestimate the appeal of McCain-Palin in a lot of smaller town area. While many people reasonably argue, that Clinton supporters shouldn't logically go to Palin because they are so opposite in their views, the fact is for some voters, that doesn't matter.

But 2 things to remember about polls.
1. Polls conducted on weekends get responses from fewer younger voters. (ah, I see now that Kevin mentioned that)
2. Popular vote polls only carry so much weight. What matters are state-by-state Electorial Votes.

[Infra-Man]

I was surprised that McCain go the bump he did and that GOP convention ratings were just as high (if not higher) than Obama's big night.

Don't forget the power of PBS

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/09/mccain_speech_m.html

McCain speech more watched than Obama's, Nielsen says
John McCain's acceptance speech may not be getting the rave reviews of his Democratic rival Barack Obama's.

But more people watched on TVs measured by Nielsen Media Research.

Nielsen reported this afternoon that an estimated 38.9 million people -- a record -- watched McCain's acceptance speech Thursday night on the three broadcast networks, plus CNN, FOX News Channel, and MSNBC, compared to 38.4 million who watched Obama's speech last week, which was carried on four other cable networks as well.

McCain even drew a bigger audience than his running mate, Sarah Palin, who drew about 37 million for her speech Wednesday night.

The usual gender and racial gap in elections showed up in the figures. Significantly more men (17.9 million) watched McCain than Obama (16.2 million), while more women watched Obama (19.9 million) than McCain (19.2 million), Nielsen said. Also, more whites watched McCain (32.2 million) than Obama (27 million), while the opposite held among African Americans with 7.5 million watching Obama and 3.1 million watching McCain.

When PBS is included, McCain's and Obama's viewerships are nearly equal.

PBS, which compiles its figures separately, said that about 2.7 million tuned in for its coverage Thursday night -- down from 3.2 million for Palin and 3.5 million for Obama's acceptance speech.

That makes McCain's total audience nearly 41 million, compared to nearly 42 million for Obama and about 40 million for Palin.

Looks like C-SPAN wasn't tabulated in this, nor was online viewership

[Infra-Man]

Epic Barack Roll

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TiQCJXpbKg

[FalconX2000]

Epic Barack Roll

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TiQCJXpbKg

That's made of win and awesome.

[the4thpip]

They're not polling people under the age of 30.

I really hope that is also the case for the USA Today poll that came out today that suddenly has McCain a whopping 10 points ahead. Their last poll was about a week ago and had Obama 7 points ahead.

Nobody can tell me that Palin caused a 17 point shift!

Interestingly enough, USA Today does not tell us how many people they polled for this:

likely voters nationwide (from a sample of 959 registered voters).

What percentage of the registered voters has voted in the last 2 elections then?

Rasmussen sees the race as tied, and they poll 3000 people. This looks like USA Today may be polling less than a quarter of that.

[PatrickG]

Then you don't really know very much about the subject. Do some reading.

I've known probably over a hundred illegals. Never known one who I made more money than.

[PatrickG]

If someone is making money, workers are being screwed.

-friendly message from your friendly commie.

Wealth can be converted from not just effort but quality of effort.

Business transactions can happen where everyone (the consumer, employer, employee, manufacturer) all profit.

[the4thpip]

Her deadly wolf program

With a disdain for science that alarms wildlife experts, Sarah Palin continues to promote Alaska's policy to gun down wolves from planes.


Sept. 8, 2008 | Wildlife activists thought they had seen the worst in 2003 when Frank Murkowski, then the Republican governor of Alaska, signed a bill ramping up state programs to gun down wild wolves from airplanes, inviting average citizens to participate. Wolves, Murkowski believed, were clearly better than humans at killing elk and moose, and humans needed to even the playing field.

But that was before Sarah Palin took Murkowski's job at the end of 2006. She went one step, or paw, further. Palin didn't think Alaskans should be allowed to chase wolves from aircraft and shoot them -- they should be encouraged to do so. Palin's administration put a bounty on wolves' heads, or to be more precise, on their mitts.

In early 2007, Palin's administration approved an initiative to pay a $150 bounty to hunters who killed a wolf from an airplane in certain areas, hacked off the left foreleg, and brought in the appendage. Ruling that the Palin administration didn't have the authority to offer payments, a state judge quickly put a halt to them but not to the shooting of wolves from aircraft.



more here:
http://www.salon.com/env/feature/2008/09/08/sarah_palin_wolves/

[Arrogantcur]

is there a "YABsies award for "can't take a joke?"
cuz i nominate this guy

that is the difference between you and i, even though i may make a joke in bad tastes, i wuldn't wish rape on anyone, let alone some guy on the internet i've never met.

I'm sorry, but you didn't make it clear that you were joking. You said that you didn't think lawbreakers deserved compassion, and that's why there were no security cameras in prison showers. And this stuff doesn't read like one long joke or series of jokes:


First, yes, yes it does. Why do you think prison showers have no cameras

Illegal Aleins are a great strain on the economy, and resources, Not to mention they cause a commotion that makes ALL aliens (legal or no) targets

Let ME get THIS straight. Some one breaks into the country , pays no taxes, has no Social Security number, really contributes nothing to anyone save te rich bastard who empoyes them. And you want MY tax dollars to go toward ensuring they have a comfortable life here even though they aren't even supposed to be here?

In my experience people don't joke around one moment and then suddenly shift gears and get pissed off and start talking seriously about whatever's pissed them off. It's either one or the other. Since you were dead serious in one part of your post, it seemed logical to assume that the whole thing was dead serious.

But apparently you were in a joking mood when you wrote that first sentence and then suddenly you had a big mood swing and found yourself upset about illegal aliens, and then you were serious. Okay....

Finally, I said I'd only wish that on you if you wished it on other people. Since you don't, I don't.