2008 U.S. Presidential Election Mega thread

[jesse_custer]

*ahem*

As an anarchist of some 30 years standing, I take quite a bit of exception to being identified with these wankers.

Really? I wouldn't have guessed.

[Alexx1]

Obama leads in Iowa and Minnesota polls, Ohio even.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/03/states.poll/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

If this has already been posted, I apologize in advance.

[Alexx1]

Obama leads in Iowa and Minnesota polls, Ohio even.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/03/states.poll/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

[KevinTBrown]

From the category of "if you can't take the heat":

McCain rejects Palin questions as 'faux media scandal' (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080903/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_palin)




Hmmm, wait a sec. Didn't McCain's campaign accuse the Obama campaign of this "scandal"? Now it's the media?

"So, Mr. McCain, were you lying then or are you lying now?"

[Alexx1]

Republicans trash Pulin on "hot mic"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080903/pl_politico/20576

[Corrina]

Peggy Noonan is a former Reagan speechwriter, correct?

[Michael P]

Peggy Noonan is a former Reagan speechwriter, correct?

Yeppers. ..........

[Alexx1]

Peggy Noonan is a former Reagan speechwriter, correct?

Yes, she was.

[KevinTBrown]

Quote by McCain's campaign manager Rick Davis: "This election is not about issues," said Davis. "This election is about a composite view of what people take away from these candidates."

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2008/09/mccain_manager_this_election_i.html

Obama campaign response: In reaction to Rick Davis' comments about the election not being about issues, Barack Obama campaign manager David Plouffe released the following statement: "We appreciate Senator McCain's campaign manager finally admitting that his campaign is not in fact about the issues the American people care about, which is exactly the kind of cynical old politics people are ready to change."

[FalconX2000]

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/09/03/1334964.aspx

In Ohio, Obama is hammering home on 2 fronts regarding the RNC:

1) Rick Davis's assertion that this election is not about the issues.

2) That there hasn't been any mention of the economy so far.



On another note:

Obama then (2004):
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/9719/obamathensm9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Obama now (2008):
http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/7001/obamanowtb4.png (http://imageshack.us)

I'm not too old for this shit!

[Buzz Dixon]

I know a lot of you aren't fans of Dr. Laura, but...

I'm stunned - couldn't the Republican Party find one competent female with adult children to run for Vice President with McCain? I realize his advisors probably didn't want a "mature" woman, as the Democrats keep harping on his age. But really, what kind of role model is a woman whose fifth child was recently born with a serious issue, Down Syndrome, and then goes back to the job of Governor within days of the birth?

I am haunted by the family pictures of the Palins during political photo-ops, showing the eldest daughter, now pregnant with her own child, cuddling the family's newborn. When Mom and Dad both work full-time (no matter how many folks get involved with the children), it becomes a somewhat chaotic situation. Certainly, if a child becomes ill and is rushed to the hospital, and you're on the hotline with both Israel and Iran as nuclear tempers are flaring, where's your attention going to be? Where should your attention be? Well, once you put your hand on the Bible and make that oath, your attention has to be with the government of the United States of America.

[Paul McEnery]

I know a lot of you aren't fans of Dr. Laura, but...

I know something's gone horribly wrong with my life when I agree with that old baggage. :biggrin:

However, she overplays it waaaaaaaay too far. Exactly the same deal with a father, I should think.

And what are we going to do, suddenly expect all our politicians to be celibate?

[KevinTBrown]

I know something's gone horribly wrong with my life when I agree with that old baggage. :biggrin:

However, she overplays it waaaaaaaay too far. Exactly the same deal with a father, I should think.

And what are we going to do, suddenly expect all our politicians to be celibate?

Or be like Jimmy Carter and just lust in their heart.

:biggrin:

[KevinTBrown]

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/09/03/1334964.aspx

In Ohio, Obama is hammering home on 2 fronts regarding the RNC:

1) Rick Davis's assertion that this election is not about the issues.

2) That there hasn't been any mention of the economy so far.



On another note:

Obama then (2004):
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/9719/obamathensm9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Obama now (2008):
http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/7001/obamanowtb4.png (http://imageshack.us)

I'm not too old for this shit!

Actually, I recall Obama mentioning awhile back about allowing his natural grey to come out now.

[Corrina]

I know a lot of you aren't fans of Dr. Laura, but...

Dear Dr. Laura:

Please do not be on my side.

Thank you.

[Alexx1]

The transcript to Murphy/Noonan conversation:

Murphy: You know, I come out of a blue, swing-state governor world. Engler Whitman, Tommy Thompson, Mitt Romney, Jeb Bush, I mean, and these guys, this is all like how you win a Texas race, you run it up. it's not going to work.

Noonan: It's over.

Murphy: Still McCain can give a version of the Lieberman speech to do himself some good.

Todd: Don't you think the Palin pick was insulting to to Kay Bailey Hutchison?

Noonan: I saw Kay this morning.

Murphy: She's never been comfortable about that.. I mean

(Someone says something unintelligible.

Todd: Is she really the most qualified woman?

Noonan: The most qualified no. I think they went for this excuse me political bullshit about narratives..

Todd: Yeah, they went to narratives.

Noonan: Everytime Republicans do that, because that's not where they live and it's not what they're good at, they blow it.
Murphy: You know what's really the worst thing about it? The greatness of McCain is no cynicism

Todd: and this is cynical. And as you called it gimmicky.

Murphy: Yeah.

Tood: Thanks guys.

Murphy: See you later.

[Paul McEnery]

Dear Dr. Laura:

Please do not be on my side.

Thank you.

Mind, if you grew a Dr. Laura from a human embryo, she'd probably come out just like Dan Savage.

[FalconX2000]

Actually, I recall Obama mentioning awhile back about allowing his natural grey to come out now.

Yeah I know. Its advantageous not to look too young. He looks like he's in his late 50s at least in that photo though (he actually doesn't in most photos).

[LtMarvel]

You should hear the rank and file at the RNC.

Phyllis Shafely told NPR that the difference between Democrats and Republicans is that Democrats would've had abortions of Down Syndrome kids..

[Paul McEnery]

You should hear the rank and file at the RNC.

Phyllis Shafely told NPR that the difference between Democrats and Republicans is that Democrats would've had abortions of Down Syndrome kids..

To be fair, Democrats would've had abortions of Phyllis Schafely.

That's right, plural.

You can't be too careful.

[Corrina]

You should hear the rank and file at the RNC.

Phyllis Shafely told NPR that the difference between Democrats and Republicans is that Democrats would've had abortions of Down Syndrome kids..

Yes, because no Democrat would ever be the parent of a special needs kid.

And, may I point out, that Palin had an amnio, a test to determine this. You don't have to have one, though doctors recommend it in case the fetus is malformed or needs to be aborted.

I didn't have one for my high risk pregnancy with twins. Because I considered them mine, no matter what. That's the way I roll.

Really, it worries me more, though, is her being a former member of the PTA. My experiences with the PTA is pretty much along the lines of the people in the Harper Valley PTA.

[Alexx1]

You should hear the rank and file at the RNC.

Phyllis Shafely told NPR that the difference between Democrats and Republicans is that Democrats would've had abortions of Down Syndrome kids..

I've yet to hear anything of substance come from the RNC. Like Obama has been saying, they don't have any issues to talk about so they have to keep attacking and use divisive tactics.

[Arrogantcur]

You should hear the rank and file at the RNC.

Phyllis Shafely told NPR that the difference between Democrats and Republicans is that Democrats would've had abortions of Down Syndrome kids..

:rolleyes: & :mad:

EDIT: You know, back in 2004 it struck me how much the delegates at the RNC reminded me of spectators at Roman coliseums. They laughed whenever somebody mocked Kerry, they booed whenever somebody talked about how he supposedly did something bad, they chanted "flip flop, flip flop, flip flop" when somebody mentioned an alleged flip-flopping incident.

Watching the DNC last week, there was none of that. Nobody seemed to consider McCain an object of ridicule, of contempt, or even of hatred based on the sounds they made. Sure, they don't like him, or George Bush. They did cheer when somebody criticized either man, when Hillary said that it was appropriate the two would be in the Twin Cities together because these days you have trouble telling them apart.

But cheering is different. It's like saying "yeah! That's right!"

Booing is like saying "we hate this person and want to spit on him!"

Laughing or mocking chants are like saying "this person is a joke!"

The Republican Party of today is filled with mean-spirited jackasses, including John McCain, Joe Lieberman and Fred Thompson. Sarah Palin may say she's against negative campaigning, but she chose to accept an invitation to a campaign that is all about negativity and smears.

I want this party to lose just because of their tactics, never mind the fact that they're wrong about so much.

[Michael P]

Really, it worries me more, though, is her being a former member of the PTA. My experiences with the PTA is pretty much along the lines of the people in the Harper Valley PTA.

I wish the PTA would disband.

[Royal]

"Country First" is so blah as a slogan

Now "Country Breakfast First"...That'll turn some heads.

Everybody loves Country Breakfast.

[AllisterH]

re: Realclearpolitics.com electoral pattern

Er, if you factor in those states LEANING republican (and really, realclearpolitics doesn't consider Texas a clear lock for McCain? What the HELL), the gap shrinks to only 8 electoral votes...

Electoral college (http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2008/09/02/map_stable/index.html)as currently shakes out

Yeah...that's a HUGE cushion we democrats should be happy about.

Call me crazy but thats WAY TOO FREAKING CLOSE.

re: Palin
Palin (and the media scrutiny) has actually been a GREAT thing for the Republicans and I can not believe Democrats have been too stupid to realize how they play into it.

Every single time we lambast her, we bring the issue to the forefront and we energize the Republican base. Pre-Palin, there was a damn good chance that the rank and file of the Christian Rightwing of the party would've stayed home.

Even when Palin was selected, if the media had been smart enough to do a Hillary and simply focus on her actual policy and NOT her children, it woud've made a difference.

Now though, unlike many here who seem only to cruise the same echo chambers, I actually do cruise Republican sites and the the Limbaugh/Ralph Reed followers are actually getting ENERGIZED by all these attacks on her.

Hell, even with all her faults, she STILL is heads and shoulders above Dan Quayle yet did that idiot get even half as many commentaries?

For the love of all that's precious, are you guys purposely trying to screw this up?:confused:

[Charles RB]

Even when Palin was selected, if the media had been smart enough to do a Hillary and simply focus on her actual policy and NOT her children, it woud've made a difference.

Unfortunately, it's a bit hard to report on her no-sex-ed and cutting-money-to-teen-mothers policies without, y'know, bringing her un-edded teen-mother daughter into it.

But I'd be all in favour of further media attention to her corruption, bullying and inability to handle a mayor position.

[LtMarvel]

These guys (http://www.electoral-vote.com/)show their work.

Outside the margin of error:

Obama 260
McCain 176

(270 needed to win)

Inside the margin of error, 18 lean to Obama and 71 lean to McCain (last VA poll was a tie-13 votes there!).

[Arrogantcur]

I just watched more of Mitt Romney's speech than I cared to.

One of the most ridiculous things he said was that the country needed the party of big ideas (referring to Republicans), not the party of Big Brother (referring to Democrats).

So the Republican party is not the party of Big Brother, despite the warrantless wiretapping, the gutting of constitutional freedoms, the fact that Romney himself stated that they should "double Gitmo", and more?

Suuuure...tell us another one Mitt.

[section 8]

I just watched more of Mitt Romney's speech than I cared to.

One of the most ridiculous things he said was that the country needed the party of big ideas (referring to Republicans), not the party of Big Brother (referring to Democrats).

So the Republican party is not the party of Big Brother, despite the warrantless wiretapping, the gutting of constitutional freedoms, the fact that Romney himself stated that they should "double Gitmo", and more?

Suuuure...tell us another one Mitt.

What i mentioned earlier about not trusting anyone who wants to be prez now.
That goes double...no tripple for romney Anyone who invest that much OF THEIR OWN MONEY into their campaign is NOT to be trusted

[Paul McEnery]

I just watched more of Mitt Romney's speech than I cared to.

One of the most ridiculous things he said was that the country needed the party of big ideas (referring to Republicans), not the party of Big Brother (referring to Democrats).

So the Republican party is not the party of Big Brother, despite the warrantless wiretapping, the gutting of constitutional freedoms, the fact that Romney himself stated that they should "double Gitmo", and more?

Suuuure...tell us another one Mitt.

And the jackbooted thugs outside the convention center beating up on the press, no less.

[Paul McEnery]

These guys (http://www.electoral-vote.com/)show their work.

Outside the margin of error:

Obama 260
McCain 176

(270 needed to win)

Inside the margin of error, 18 lean to Obama and 71 lean to McCain (last VA poll was a tie-13 votes there!).

Which seems to mean that McCain's electoral college votes are very soft.

[Arrogantcur]

Well, what I heard of Huckabee's speech didn't seem particularly hostile towards Democrats. To Huckabee's credit, and I don't often have nice things to say about Huckabee.

He told a story that was supposed to illustrate the idea that "freedom isn't free", but that idea in itself isn't offensive to me. It's wrong though. I can't fathom how any sane person could assume that if there were no military, if it were disbanded or if the budget and troop levels were cut, then the U.S. of A. would suddenly have a gigantic foreign army descending on it and occupying it. All you really need for defense is the National Guard, maybe the Air Force. Everything else is redundant, and I don't support the troops unless I support the orders they have been given.

Anyways, let's see what comes next.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Well, what I heard of Huckabee's speech didn't seem particularly hostile towards Democrats. To Huckabee's credit, and I don't often have nice things to say about Huckabee.

He told a story that was supposed to illustrate the idea that "freedom isn't free", but that idea in itself isn't offensive to me. It's wrong though. I can't fathom how any sane person could assume that if there were no military, if it were disbanded or if the budget and troop levels were cut, then the U.S. of A. would suddenly have a gigantic foreign army descending on it and occupying it. All you really need for defense is the National Guard, maybe the Air Force. Everything else is redundant, and I don't support the troops unless I support the orders they have been given.

Anyways, let's see what comes next.


It works for Canada!


:biggrin:

[Corrina]

Here's a question.

Did no one think twice about scheduling McCain's acceptance speech opposite the opening game of the NFL season?

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Here's a question.

Did no one think twice about scheduling McCain's acceptance speech opposite the opening game of the NFL season?

Uh oh....

:biggrin:

[Arrogantcur]

It works for Canada!


:biggrin:

I really believe it does, although I'm sure that hawks or people who strongly support the military would argue something to the effect of "if Canada didn't have the U.S. as its ally, everybody would jump on it."

[Kid Kamikaze10]

I really believe it does, although I'm sure that hawks or people who strongly support the military would argue something to the effect of "if Canada didn't have the U.S. as its ally, everybody would jump on it."

Who'd want to attack Canada?

I'm mean... Really...

[Arrogantcur]

Who'd want to attack Canada?

I'm mean... Really...

Yeah. Everybody loves us. :wink:

Hooooo boy, Rudy is talking about the "left-wing media and Hollywood celebrities" trying to decide this election. :rolleyes: I'm gonna sprain my eyes at this rate. Or they'll freeze like that. Or something.

EDIT: John McCain has been "tested time and again by crisis"? How? What exactly has he gone through since his release from the Hanoi Hilton? What "tests" has he faced? He's won elections. Other than that.... :confused:

2ND EDIT: Yeah, there the delegates go laughing at Obama after Giuliani saying he was a "community organizer."

[Alexx1]

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/

Giuliani’s ugly approach may backfire:

ST. PAUL (CNN) – This speech is about mockery – and I wonder whether that’s appealing to voters. I really think this tone is going to turn a lot of voters off – it’s ugly, it’s bitter, it’s nasty. There is a bullying tone to this speech, and to Romney’s speech, and I just don’t think it works.

Even less appealing: “When they gave up on Iraq, they gave up on America”? Now that’s insulting.

What they’re doing is re-running the 2004 campaign, which the Republicans won on the issue of terrorism. He’s saying the war on terror should be the supreme issue – but for most voters it’s the economy

[KevinTBrown]

Here's a question.

Did no one think twice about scheduling McCain's acceptance speech opposite the opening game of the NFL season?

Not "just an NFL game", but one that features the Super Bowl champion vs. one of its biggest division rivals as well.

For some reason, the words "lowest rated acceptance speech of all time" comes to mind. :tongue:

[Briareos]

Palin gave a great speach tonight.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Palin gave a great speach tonight.

More proof, if any was needed, you're an imbicile.

In ten years or so, her youngest child will be able to give a speech as good as that, and at least the child would probably say things the child honestly felt and believed.

[Alexx1]

Palin gave a great speach tonight.

Her speech was all fluff, all insults, and no substance. It was obvious she didn't write it and it's obvious she's unprepared. Nothing she said came from the heart. And if it did what a mighty cold place. I'm sure when the dust settles and emotions are put back in check, it will have left many uninspired and turned off. The whole RNC thus far reminds me of six graders on a school park trying to bullying and scare folks. Obama has my respect because he doesn't want the White House at the expense of character. McCain has proven he'd sell his soul to get it. And where in the hell is the diversity in that crowd?

[JeffreyWKramer]

The whole RNC thus far reminds me of six graders on a school park trying to bullying and scare folks.

You just described the typical social conservative mentality.

[Major Comma]

I am watching CSPAN.
does anybody know why Arizona passed during the Roll Call of the states ?
Isnt that McCains home state?
just thought that was curious.

[DavidAllred]

Well, methinks the dems are going to be shopping for Depends, because they got a new one torn tonight. After watching both conventions, I'd have to say that the DNC was great and Obama and company are great public speakers. But only one convention had any teeth, and that was the RNC.

My biggest gripe: posturing. I hate all the posturing for war and American toughness. It makes me sick. Everyone who can fight knows its the guys that don't posture who pack the hardest punches. The ones that posture the most are paper tigers. Obama wins a foreign policy debate any day of the week for me.

Unfortunately, there's more than that on the ballet. And with an American withdrawl already on timetabled out and agreed upon, it takes every bit of wind out of that issue for Obama.

I'm pretty close to making up my mind to go with McCain / Palin.

[KevinTBrown]

Palin gave a great speach tonight.

Yeah?

And the sun will rise in the west tomorrow.....


What a fucking tool she is. All fluff, no substance.

I cannot wait to see the debates. The VP debate especially. Biden is going to wipe the fucking room with her.

[DavidAllred]

Palin gave a great speach tonight.

I agree, although speech is spelled with two "e's."

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Well, methinks the dems are going to be shopping for Depends, because they got a new one torn tonight. After watching both conventions, I'd have to say that the DNC was great and Obama and company are great public speakers. But only one convention had any teeth, and that was the RNC.

My biggest gripe: posturing. I hate all the posturing for war and American toughness. It makes me sick. Everyone who can fight knows its the guys that don't posture who pack the hardest punches. The ones that posture the most are paper tigers. Obama wins a foreign policy debate any day of the week for me.

Unfortunately, there's more than that on the ballet. And with an American withdrawl already on timetabled out and agreed upon, it takes every bit of wind out of that issue for Obama.

I'm pretty close to making up my mind to go with McCain / Palin.

That same teeth thing is why I hated this convention. They're a bunch of bullies, and it made Lieberman look like an even BIGGER hypocrite. Crossing party lines my a**...

At least the Democrats attempted to have some freakin' class in their convention. I can't believe they were so respectful to McCain and all of them after watching this.

[DavidAllred]

I can't believe they were so respectful to McCain and all of them after watching this.

The problem is that they've got nothing on the guy. He does have a proven track-record. He has earned the respect and favor of many of his collegues on both sides of the aisle. As Thompson so poignantly put it, Obama hasn't that luxury. He has speeches. As Palin so succiently put it, if Obama spent more time sponsoring legislation and less time making buttons, people might be able to see more. As it stands, we've got mad skills behind the pulpit, and ??? What? That he's not Bush? Rather than running on his own record, he's basically chosen to run against GW's. As a voter, that doesn't work for me.

All of that said, for the first time in my life, I feel comfortable with either candidate winning this election. That's a great place for this country to be, in my opinion.

[TomStillwell]

Wow, Palin came off as the mean spirited head cheerleader from ever teen movie tonight.

This was her nationwide coming out party? Vile personal attacks and mockery of her opponents?Truly pathetic.

I'm really scratching my head at what the Republicans are thinking when they run a night of hate such as this on national TV.

I'm not a Republican or Democrat. I vote for the most capable person running. After watching both the DNC and RNC conventions I can safely say that if my vote was undecided at this point I'd be going with Obama.

The Republicans came off as ugly and small minded tonight...not a good way to woo intelligent voters.

[Kevinroc]

The problem is that they've got nothing on the guy. He does have a proven track-record. He has earned the respect and favor of many of his collegues on both sides of the aisle. As Thompson so poignantly put it, Obama hasn't that luxury. He has speeches. As Palin so succiently put it, if Obama spent more time sponsoring legislation and less time making buttons, people might be able to see more. As it stands, we've got mad skills behind the pulpit, and ??? What? That he's not Bush? Rather than running on his own record, he's basically chosen to run against GW's. As a voter, that doesn't work for me.

All of that said, for the first time in my life, I feel comfortable with either candidate winning this election. That's a great place for this country to be, in my opinion.

You feel comfortable with one of the Keating Five being President of the US?

[Evan Waters]

The problem is that they've got nothing on the guy. He does have a proven track-record. He has earned the respect and favor of many of his collegues on both sides of the aisle. As Thompson so poignantly put it, Obama hasn't that luxury. He has speeches.

And, you know, POLICY.

In his acceptance speech he outlined 23 specific policy changes he would make as President.

McCain has voted with Bush 90% of the time, and promises no change whatsoever. Name me one thing he'd improve.

[TomStillwell]

All of that said, for the first time in my life, I feel comfortable with either candidate winning this election. That's a great place for this country to be, in my opinion.

I think that's the fuckin' scariest thing I've heard in my life.

[Sabrinaset]

Name me one thing he'd improve.

Well, Bush would be out of the White House, so you have that at least!

[KevinTBrown]

Well, Bush would be out of the White House, so you have that at least!

Replaced by his older, but not wiser, "brother".

[Evan Waters]

Well, Bush would be out of the White House, so you have that at least!

Doesn't matter. We'd still make no progress on fixing the things we need to fix.

There needs to be hard and forceful global warming legislation NOW. We need to re-establish a basic commitment to human rights, for our citizens and for all human beings on this planet, NOW. We need to stop playing along with Ahmadinejad's sabre-rattling games NOW. We can't wait four more years to undo the damage that Bush has done. We cannot let things go on as is.

[Major Comma]

Well said Bree!

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Doesn't matter. We'd still make no progress on fixing the things we need to fix.

There needs to be hard and forceful global warming legislation NOW. We need to re-establish a basic commitment to human rights, for our citizens and for all human beings on this planet, NOW. We need to stop playing along with Ahmadinejad's sabre-rattling games NOW. We can't wait four more years to undo the damage that Bush has done. We cannot let things go on as is.

Indeed, Evan...

Indeed. (I don't want to saw amen, 'cause I don't want to offend anyone.)

Sustainability should be the primary concern, period. A greater balance of people, environment, and economy, isn't just necessary; it's mandatory.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Indeed, Evan...

Indeed. (I don't want to saw amen, 'cause I don't want to offend anyone.)

Sustainability should be the primary concern, period. A greater balance of people, environment, and economy, isn't just necessary; it's mandatory.

Wow...

Some of my friends are right.... Sometimes I sound like a Black Panther....

[DavidAllred]

In his acceptance speech he outlined 23 specific policy changes he would make as President.

That's super really. But Presidents don't make policy changes without the other two branches of government. Obama's track record is one that hasn't reached across the aisle to get anything done. Why should I believe his Presidency is going to be any different? That's the question he has to answer if he wants my vote.

[DavidAllred]

I think that's the fuckin' scariest thing I've heard in my life.

What if I said, "Ron Paul would get my vote if he stood a snowball's chance." Is that more terrifying?

[Sabrinaset]

I can't spend too much time replying because I have to go back to work soon, so I'll make this short. It's not like I'm voting for him, but I'll say at least this much for McCain: He's not as bad as W is. So, worst case scenario and McCain wins, we'll at least have some improvement in the White House. Granted, we could have more, but either way, things aren't getting worse. And, I also have some faith that the real McCain that actually was supposed to be an alternative to W. 8 years ago (or so I heard he was) is still in there somewhere.

[Evan Waters]

That's super really. But Presidents don't make policy changes without the other two branches of government. Obama's track record is one that hasn't reached across the aisle to get anything done.

Neither did Bush, but he had a majority in both houses and that was enough. The Democrats are expected to keep the Senate and the House, so maybe with a sympathetic executive they'll be able to actually pass legislation instead of send it off to be vetoed.

Why should I believe his Presidency is going to be any different? That's the question he has to answer if he wants my vote.

Why do you believe McCain would be any different? What do you think he would actually do? What is his big policy initiative that makes you think he can fix things?

[Evan Waters]

What if I said, "Ron Paul would get my vote if he stood a snowball's chance." Is that more terrifying?

Yes. I think social welfare is something the government should be interested in maintaining. And the idea of switching back to a gold standard is fatally flawed as well.

[TCJohnson]

That's super really. But Presidents don't make policy changes without the other two branches of government. Obama's track record is one that hasn't reached across the aisle to get anything done. Why should I believe his Presidency is going to be any different? That's the question he has to answer if he wants my vote.

U.S. Senators Barack Obama (D-IL) and Richard Lugar (R-IN) today announced that the Senate Appropriations Committee accepted their request to provide funding to implement the Lugar-Obama nonproliferation initiative.

http://lugar.senate.gov/press/record.cfm?id=278019

(WASHINGTON, D.C.) – U.S. Senators Tom Coburn (R-OK) and Barack Obama (D-IL) today hailed the Senate’s passage of the “Federal Funding Accountability and Transparency Act,” a bill that will create a Google-like search engine and database to track approximately $1 trillion in federal grants, contracts, earmarks and loans.

http://coburn.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=LatestNews.PressReleases&ContentRecord_id=8dcb8c35-802a-23ad-4d37-9c8ea9c43460

[Briareos]

Wow, Palin came off as the mean spirited head cheerleader from ever teen movie tonight.

This was her nationwide coming out party? Vile personal attacks and mockery of her opponents?Truly pathetic.

I'm really scratching my head at what the Republicans are thinking when they run a night of hate such as this on national TV.

I'm not a Republican or Democrat. I vote for the most capable person running. After watching both the DNC and RNC conventions I can safely say that if my vote was undecided at this point I'd be going with Obama.

The Republicans came off as ugly and small minded tonight...not a good way to woo intelligent voters.

*cough* Palin faked her Pregnancy *cough*

[DavidAllred]

Why do you believe McCain would be any different? What do you think he would actually do? What is his big policy initiative that makes you think he can fix things?

Because I believe that the only thing "broken" right now is America's foriegn policy and the war in Iraq. McCain loses a foreign policy debate with Obama. Obama own McCain's ass in that department. Iraq now has a scheduled troop-withdrawl -- and with no help from Obama. He didn't orchestrate it. And like so many have said, our troops can home with honor, not with their tails between their legs. Obama should have worked for that kind of withdrawl, and settled for nothing less.

So the Iraq issue is off the table for me as a voter. Troops are coming home. The Iraqi's seem pleased. The Dems ought to be happy. But no, rather than celebrate a troop withdrawl, apparently some on the fringe left are so pissed they're willing to throw buckets of bleach on old people... umm, not my kind of people.

What's that leave? A deficit? You mean the one caused by the war that should have never been fought? That's done. Next?

What am I supposed to be so pissed about as an American?

[Evan Waters]

What's that leave? A deficit? You mean the one caused by the war that should have never been fought? That's done. Next?

What am I supposed to be so pissed about as an American?

Torture? The melting of the ice caps? Letting that yutz in charge of Iran score political points off of being a provocateur and delaying actual democratic reform in that country? A broken education policy? Gays not being considered worthy to serve in our Armed Forces? Abstinence-only sex ed programs increasing teen pregnancy?

[Black Vespa]

*cough* Palin faked her Pregnancy *cough*

wow.

really hoping someone will bite on that one, eh?

[Black Vespa]

both parties blow.

if i was affiliated with any party, i would be closer to being a libertarian to those 2.

[DavidAllred]

Torture? The melting of the ice caps? Letting that yutz in charge of Iran score political points off of being a provocateur and delaying actual democratic reform in that country? A broken education policy? Gays not being considered worthy to serve in our Armed Forces? Abstinence-only sex ed programs increasing teen pregnancy?

From the movie Fletch... "Give me something I can print."

McCain's stance on torture is a perplexing one for sure. But the rest of the list will all come out in the wash.

[Evan Waters]

both parties blow.

if i was affiliated with any party, i would be closer to being a libertarian to those 2.

Libertarianism is for people who think the Dust Bowl was self-correcting.

[Black Vespa]

lol, that's very funny, yet contemptuous response... i didn't say i held with all of the beliefs of the libertarian party, but there are several strong issues they take that i agree with.

[Evan Waters]

From the movie Fletch... "Give me something I can print."

McCain's stance on torture is a perplexing one for sure. But the rest of the list will all come out in the wash.

How? McCain's already taken a belligerent stance on Iran, he wants "the market" to handle global warming (it's done a bang up job so far), his VP, a Creationist, favors abstinence-only sex ed AND opposes abortion even in cases of rape, he himself has been rather negative on Roe v. Wade...

[Black Vespa]

How? McCain's already taken a belligerent stance on Iran, he wants "the market" to handle global warming (it's done a bang up job so far), his VP, a Creationist, favors abstinence-only sex ed AND opposes abortion even in cases of rape, he himself has been rather negative on Roe v. Wade...


beligerant stance? if you're a party member of the islamic republic?

[Evan Waters]

beligerant stance? if you're a party member of the islamic republic?

Ahmadinejad uses this sparring with the US as a way of distracting the Iranian people (mostly middle class, more concerned with making car payments than waging a jihad) from his own incompetence. And we're just playing into his hands every time we threaten to bomb the place. If we ever took military action, the public would side with him against us, and the Islamic Republic would last a hundred years.

He's essentially the geopolitical equivalent of a troll, and we need to stop feeding him.

[Black Vespa]

Ahmadinejad uses this sparring with the US as a way of distracting the Iranian people (mostly middle class, more concerned with making car payments than waging a jihad) from his own incompetence. And we're just playing into his hands every time we threaten to bomb the place. If we ever took military action, the public would side with him against us, and the Islamic Republic would last a hundred years.

He's essentially the geopolitical equivalent of a troll, and we need to stop feeding him.

i mostly agree with you here. but who's public are you referring to? U.S.A. or Iran?

[Evan Waters]

i mostly agree with you here. but who's public are you referring to? U.S.A. or Iran?

Iran. Right now a lot of people in that country want change, but there's no constitutional method of removing the clerics and they don't want the bloodshed of an actual revolution. So we have to support them instead of threatening to throw missiles at them.

[Infra-Man]

Here's a question.

Did no one think twice about scheduling McCain's acceptance speech opposite the opening game of the NFL season?

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1237/mccainhandonface1uy5.jpg

[Black Vespa]

Bahá'í faithful would prefer a regime change, i'm sure. There are enough hold overs from during the shah's reign that i'm certain are waiting for the right opportunity to come along as well. I see what you're saying, but who's to say the reaction would be mostly negative? - are you referring to Iraq? because if that's the case, the general population seems to have been more favorable towards u.s. assistance than media would indicate.

[Evan Waters]

Bahá'í faithful would prefer a regime change, i'm sure. There are enough hold overs from during the shah's reign that i'm certain are waiting for the right opportunity to come along as well. I see what you're saying, but who's to say the reaction would be mostly negative? - are you referring to Iraq? because if that's the case, the general population seems to have been more favorable towards u.s. assistance than media would indicate.

But Iran is different. They're not a dictatorship, and they have a massive middle class. Middle class people tend to prefer stability over bombs exploding next to them.

[Black Vespa]

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1237/mccainhandonface1uy5.jpg

whether the tv viewer is republican or democrat or neither, i would give benefit of the doubt to national public interest towards tomorrow's coverage of the RNC.....i think it's going to do fine. besides the giants are playing a boring division game against the redskins....who cares ?

[Black Vespa]

But Iran is different. They're not a dictatorship, and they have a massive middle class. Middle class people tend to prefer stability over bombs exploding next to them.

yeah, can't deny that. - i'm sure any class would feel the same way for that matter.

[Black Vespa]

But Iran is different. They're not a dictatorship, and they have a massive middle class. Middle class people tend to prefer stability over bombs exploding next to them.

you're seeing this as a whole reactionary scenario like with iraq, where everything is underestimated or not thought out, and the end result is there is no end result, right?

[Infra-Man]

both parties blow.

if i was affiliated with any party, i would be closer to being a libertarian to those 2.

How do you feel about Bob Barr as a candidate? Do you think he has the potential to play spoiler this year?

[Infra-Man]

The transcript to Murphy/Noonan conversation:

Murphy: You know, I come out of a blue, swing-state governor world. Engler Whitman, Tommy Thompson, Mitt Romney, Jeb Bush, I mean, and these guys, this is all like how you win a Texas race, you run it up. it's not going to work.

Noonan: It's over.

Murphy: Still McCain can give a version of the Lieberman speech to do himself some good.

Todd: Don't you think the Palin pick was insulting to to Kay Bailey Hutchison?

Noonan: I saw Kay this morning.

Murphy: She's never been comfortable about that.. I mean

(Someone says something unintelligible.

Todd: Is she really the most qualified woman?

Noonan: The most qualified no. I think they went for this excuse me political bullshit about narratives..

Todd: Yeah, they went to narratives.

Noonan: Everytime Republicans do that, because that's not where they live and it's not what they're good at, they blow it.
Murphy: You know what's really the worst thing about it? The greatness of McCain is no cynicism

Todd: and this is cynical. And as you called it gimmicky.

Murphy: Yeah.

Tood: Thanks guys.

Murphy: See you later.

Now with audio...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq4sOM4tpno

[Black Vespa]

How do you feel about Bob Barr as a candidate? Do you think he has the potential to play spoiler this year?



no. not at all. libertarian party needs to reassess how they work as a party. i haven't been impressed with this election's party candidacy.

[Evan Waters]

you're seeing this as a whole reactionary scenario like with iraq, where everything is underestimated or not thought out, and the end result is there is no end result, right?

I'm not seeing HOW you could plan something like this well. Just conceptually it's doomed from the start- we cannot risk a war with Iran. We don't have the troops to actually invade, and just dropping bombs on suspected nuclear plants would be a disaster. It would do damage to the nation's infrastructure and inflame the Iranian people against us, ensuring that hardliners like Ahmadinejad keep getting put into power.

[Black Vespa]

I'm not seeing HOW you could plan something like this well. Just conceptually it's doomed from the start- we cannot risk a war with Iran. We don't have the troops to actually invade, and just dropping bombs on suspected nuclear plants would be a disaster. It would do damage to the nation's infrastructure and inflame the Iranian people against us, ensuring that hardliners like Ahmadinejad keep getting put into power.

right. i agree with you. we'd be totally out of our element, resources stretched, and likely underestimating them as well. i hope the best decision is made. but i don't think the democrat ticket offers the alternative we need. obama's initial suggestion in the way to handle the problem with georgia/russia was to leave it in the hands of u.n. security council...where russia has veto power.....there has to be a clearer way to handle international affairs that balances between obama's/biden's vision and mccain's approach. they're both so polarizing....

[Infra-Man]

The McCain campaign's got an astroturf (artificial grassroots) effort with fabulous prizes

http://2008central.net/2008/08/07/sir-spamalot-mccain-campaign-using-astroturf-to-boost-online-presence/

The McCain campaign is offering prizes to supporters that spread official campaign talking points around the blogosphere - in other words, rewards for spammers. WaPo describes the practice:

"Activists and political operatives have used volunteers or paid staff to seed radio call-in shows or letters-to-the-editor pages for years, typically without disclosing the caller or letter writer’s connection to a candidate or cause. Like the fake grass for which the practice is named, such AstroTurf messages look as though they come from the grass roots but are ersatz.

"McCain’s campaign has taken the same idea and given it an Internet-era twist. It also has taken the concept one step further. (by offering incentives)"

The program has a few problems. In the article, a professional in the field of marketing political-organizing software discussed two issues: 1) the lack of disclosure from commenters, given that they are simply repeating a campaign talking point and 2) the potential lack of relevance between the comment and the post to which the comment is being placed on. I think there are additional problems with this. First, the McCain campaign is spending time and resources managing a program that is largely fruitless and will just be annoying to members of the various communities that will receive this comment spam. Secondly, this entire program operates under the assumption that people read comments. On balance, they usually don’t and if someone is reading a comment, they are generally going to skip over the one that looks like spam.

I would also add that targeting sites such as MyDD and DailyKos is just a silly waste of time. If McCain wants to make any headway within those communities, he needs to engage them directly and not push them further away with shady astroturft techniques.

On the McCain campaign site they even have the following message for astroturfers:
REPORT YOUR POSTS - CLICK HERE
Tell us about your efforts and receive points for your success!

Yup... you get points for spamming message boards with talking points. It's like playing ski ball and winning tickets at Chuck E Cheese, except ski ball is cooler.

[Evan Waters]

right. i agree with you. we'd be totally out of our element, resources stretched, and likely underestimating them as well. i hope the best decision is made. but i don't think the democrat ticket offers the alternative we need. obama's initial suggestion in the way to handle the problem with georgia/russia was to leave it in the hands of u.n. security council...where russia has veto power.....there has to be a clearer way to handle international affairs that balances between obama's/biden's vision and mccain's approach. they're both so polarizing....

The Russia/Georgia situation is a lot more complex than it's been portrayed- Putin's a bastard but Georgia was hardly spotless. The Democratic party is at least willing to acknowledge that diplomacy sometimes works, and not cry "appeasement! appeasement!" at every turn.

[Black Vespa]

diplomacy does goe alot further then shoot and ask questions later. but again...there has to be some kind of middle ground on foreign affairs.

[the4thpip]

re: Realclearpolitics.com electoral pattern

Er, if you factor in those states LEANING republican (and really, realclearpolitics doesn't consider Texas a clear lock for McCain? What the HELL), the gap shrinks to only 8 electoral votes...

Electoral college (http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2008/09/02/map_stable/index.html)as currently shakes out

Yeah...that's a HUGE cushion we democrats should be happy about.

Call me crazy but thats WAY TOO FREAKING CLOSE.


Again: Most polls used to come to the averages from that map are from the time when the national polls were about 6 points closer as well. Several of the more recent polls (like for Ohio and even Florida) show a switch from McCain to Obama there. It's just that you need one or two more polls per state for it to show up on that map. I wish they had a "just the most recent poll" feature - for some of those states, they factor in polls that are months old!

I don't know why there are so few state polls coming out. Feels like 4 years ago, there were more at this point.

[Suzanne]

Palin gave a great speach tonight.Yes, if you like your shit on tap.

[the4thpip]

Have a look at Nevada:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/nv/nevada_mccain_vs_obama-252.html

It's counted for McCain in the "no toss up" map, because the polls from before the democratic convention had him ahead. The two most recent polls have Obama leading by 1 and 5 points, respectively.

Same thing in Ohio, with a smaller lead for Obama but still a clear trend:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/oh/ohio_mccain_vs_obama-400.html

[Black Vespa]

Again: Most polls used to come to the averages from that map are from the time when the national polls were about 6 points closer as well. Several of the more recent polls (like for Ohio and even Florida) show a switch from McCain to Obama there. It's just that you need one or two more polls per state for it to show up on that map. I wish they had a "just the most recent poll" feature - for some of those states, they factor in polls that are months old!

I don't know why there are so few state polls coming out. Feels like 4 years ago, there were more at this point.

polls are as valuable as monopoly money.

[the4thpip]

Palin gave a great speach tonight.

"Peaches" is spelled with an extra "e" and the "s" at the end, not the beginning, you fool! :tongue:

[Black Vespa]

"Peaches" is spelled with an extra "e" and the "s" at the end, not the beginning, you fool! :tongue:

you got the gist of what he was saying, and no, putting a smiley face on the end of your sentence doesn't soften the snarky comment.

[the4thpip]

That's super really. But Presidents don't make policy changes without the other two branches of government. Obama's track record is one that hasn't reached across the aisle to get anything done. Why should I believe his Presidency is going to be any different? That's the question he has to answer if he wants my vote.

Do you really think a Republican president is gonna have a better chance of gettng things done with the next Congress?
Remember gridlock?

You have more Republicans up for re-election than Democrats, and you have several Republicans retiring, with a climate very hostile towards the GOP. There is no way the next Congress is going to have a Republican majority.

[the4thpip]

*cough* Palin faked her Pregnancy *cough*

Yeah, I could not believe Michelle Obama brought that up in her speech at the DNC. No wait, that was Biden, right? Kerry? Hillary? That chunky guy in the cheap suit?

Somebody must have said it at the DNC, or Briareos wouldn't have made that post, would he? :confused:

[the4thpip]

How do you feel about Bob Barr as a candidate? Do you think he has the potential to play spoiler this year?

The very few polls I have seen that include him (and Nader and McKinney) have shown a wider lead for Obama over McCain. Looks like Barr will take more Republicans than Nader and McKinney combined take from Obama.

[the4thpip]

you got the gist of what he was saying, and no, putting a smiley face on the end of your sentence doesn't soften the snarky comment.

But peaches are sweet, and to so am I! :redface:

[Black Vespa]

But peaches are sweet, and to so am I! :redface:

fair enough.

[FalconX2000]

Wow, Palin came off as the mean spirited head cheerleader from ever teen movie tonight.

This was her nationwide coming out party? Vile personal attacks and mockery of her opponents?Truly pathetic.

I'm really scratching my head at what the Republicans are thinking when they run a night of hate such as this on national TV.

I'm not a Republican or Democrat. I vote for the most capable person running. After watching both the DNC and RNC conventions I can safely say that if my vote was undecided at this point I'd be going with Obama.

The Republicans came off as ugly and small minded tonight...not a good way to woo intelligent voters.

He's got a track record of being stupid. Besides his meet you halfway approach on energy and that one ethics bill with Feingold which Obama himself topped by writing an even better one in his first year in the senate, McCain's horrible.


Was one of the foremost proponents of the 2nd Iraq War.

Ignored Afghanistan while Obama was advocating for additional troops to be sent there since early last year.

Laughed at Obama when the junior senator advocated bombing Al Qaeda in Pakistan if the local government could not or would not respond properly.

He voted against supporting veteren's college education after they've served 4 years.

Refused to entertain notions about talking with America's enemies, a strategy that was proven right before and has been proven right again in the final couple of years of the Bush administration.

Has himself admitted 3 times, most recently in 2006, that he does not understand the economy.

Wants to give the biggest tax cuts to the wealthiest 3% in America (If you're making $100000 or less you're going to see a bigger tax break under Obama).

His budget has been completely torn apart by economists as there is absolutely no way for McCain to pay for his plans except by increasing the national deficit by another several trillion dollars.

Has advocated dismantling the social security public system.

While initially admirably opposing Bush's tax cuts during a time of war, flip flopped on it when he decided to run for election. Now he wants to extend them.

Credits the success of the surge as if he took into account the Sunni Awakening and the standing down of enemy militias before said surge occured into account. He got lucky and wants to trumpet it as judgement.


McCain has been terrible on the issues and he wants to pass off that track record as experience. Obama has been right time and time again.

[king mob]

Bloody hell, I watched a bit of Palin's speech on the BBC breakfast news & she's fucking horrendous. It's as if someone spliced Thatcher with some New Labour harpy like Hazel Blears & gave her an American accent.

[Black Vespa]

He's got a track record of being stupid. Besides his meet you halfway approach on energy, he's been horrible.


Was one of the foremost proponents of the 2nd Iraq War.

Ignored Afghanistan while Obama was advocating for additional troops to be sent there since early last year.

Laughed at Obama when the junior senator advocated bombing Al Qaeda in Pakistan if the local government could not or would not respond properly.

He voted against supporting veteren's college education after they've served 4 years.

Refused to entertain notions about talking with America's enemies, a strategy that was proven right before and has been proven right again in the final couple of years of the Bush administration.

Has himself admitted 3 times, most recently in 2006, that he does not understand the economy.

Wants to give the biggest tax cuts to the wealthiest 3% in America (If you're making $100000 or less you're going to see a bigger tax break under Obama).

His budget has been completely torn apart by economists as there is absolutely no way for McCain to pay for his plans except by increasing the national deficit by another several trillion dollars.

Has advocated dismantling the social security public system.


in a number of instances, one might say the RNC was cutting to the chase in regards to the shortcomings of the opponent. nothing wrong with that. it's called politics.

[Black Vespa]

Has advocated dismantling the social security public system.

Why wouldn't we dismantle a program that has proven to be outdated and non-functioning?

gives a low-rate of return, is one giant f'n pyramid scheme that's going to end abruptly once all the baby boomers get their share--projections show expenses will exceed receipts by the year 2017. it's a system that fit the time..back in roosevelt's era...was never changed properly and grew into the problems it has now.

[FalconX2000]

Because I believe that the only thing "broken" right now is America's foriegn policy and the war in Iraq. McCain loses a foreign policy debate with Obama. Obama own McCain's ass in that department. Iraq now has a scheduled troop-withdrawl -- and with no help from Obama. He didn't orchestrate it. And like so many have said, our troops can home with honor, not with their tails between their legs. Obama should have worked for that kind of withdrawl, and settled for nothing less.

So the Iraq issue is off the table for me as a voter. Troops are coming home. The Iraqi's seem pleased. The Dems ought to be happy. But no, rather than celebrate a troop withdrawl, apparently some on the fringe left are so pissed they're willing to throw buckets of bleach on old people... umm, not my kind of people.

What's that leave? A deficit? You mean the one caused by the war that should have never been fought? That's done. Next?

What am I supposed to be so pissed about as an American?

:eek: ...

I'm tempted to say this puts you beyond hope, but I've only tried once.

Obama voted for funding the troops in Iraq even as he condemned its conduct, something which most of the left gripe about, the right laughs at him about, but with which I agree. He knew that leaving Iraq so soon after going in would be an even greater debacle. I've listed some of the issues in my previous post, so there's really not all that much else to say right now.

"Country First" is so blah as a slogan

Now "Country Breakfast First"...That'll turn some heads.

Everybody loves Country Breakfast.

A vote for McCain is a vote for oatmeal and hot chocolate!

[the4thpip]

Bloody hell, I watched a bit of Palin's speech on the BBC breakfast news & she's fucking horrendous. It's as if someone spliced Thatcher with some New Labour harpy like Hazel Blears & gave her an American accent.

I think her writers went for "energizing the base" - which shows how out of touch they are.

That base has been eroding for several years now. The amount of Americans who consider themselves Republicans is way lower than 4 years ago, as several statistics show.

Just look at this board: Who would have thought 4 years ago that Bree, Mac and Buzz would not support the Republican ticket?

They would have needed a speech that appealed to independents, and maybe some Hillary democrats. They didn't get that.

[FalconX2000]

in a number of instances, one might say the RNC was cutting to the chase in regards to the shortcomings of the opponent. nothing wrong with that. it's called politics.

? Sorry, I'm not sure what your reply has to do with my post?:confused: I didn't mention the RNC at any point.

Why wouldn't we dismantle a program that has proven to be outdated and non-functioning?

gives a low-rate of return, is one giant f'n pyramid scheme that's going to end abruptly once all the baby boomers get their share--projections show expenses will exceed receipts by the year 2017. it's a system that fit the time..back in roosevelt's era...was never changed properly and grew into the problems it has now.

If you're thinking 401k accounts, it could work but I'd want to abolish the retirement age.

What I should have said, however, is that McCain wants to privatise it the way healthcare has been.

http://www.socsec.org/publications.asp?pubid=503

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/25/johnmccain.economy?gusrc=rss&feed=business

Social security isn't going to be a crisis for another few decades. Of course, mileage may vary depending on whether we get some startling medical breakthroughs that make elders live another 20 years.

[the4thpip]

So, what's Alan Keyes been up to?

On April 15, Keyes confirmed his split from the GOP and his intention to explore the candidacy of the Constitution Party.[82][83] He lost his bid for the party's nomination, however, coming in second to 2004 CP vice presidential candidate Chuck Baldwin at the party's national convention in Kansas City, Missouri on April 26, 2008.[84] During the convention, the party's founder Howard Phillips gave a controversial speech in which he referred to Keyes as "the Neocon candidate" who "lingered in the Republican Party until a week ago."[85] Following the defeat, Keyes held an interview with Mike Ferguson[86] in which he compared his defeat to an abortion.[87] Later, Keyes told a group of his supporters that he was "prayerfully considering" making a continued bid for the presidency as an independent candidate, [88]and asserted his refusal to endorse Baldwin's candidacy.[89]

Instead, Keyes has formed a new third party, America's Independent Party, for his presidential candidacy. America's Independent Party gained the affiliation of California's American Independent Party and thus became the third-largest political party in the United States by registered voters, passing the Constitution Party. However, the AIP ticket, which may have either Rev. Wiley Drake of California or Brian Rohrbough of Colorado as its vice presidential candidate, will only be on the ballot in California, Colorado, and Florida.

His candidacy has been endorsed by the Christian Falangist Party of America[90]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Keyes#U.S._Presidential_election_campaign_200 8

The Christian Falangist party espouses a largely authoritarian ideology, opposing both social and economic liberalism. It was uncompromisingly pro-life, opposed gun control and called for outlawing public displays of homosexual behavior. To clarify their position, the party website stated "[t]hat what consenting adults do in private is between them and God and not the government's business no matter how filthy, perverted and disgusting it is."[7]

. The party's views on Islam and Freemasonry, as well as its loathing of political correctness and the New Age movement are notable. The party also took a hard line against anti-Semitism, declaring that the rights of Jewish as well as Christian immigrants must be respected. CFPA opposed further Muslim immigration.[8]

The party believed that the Crusades were essentially defensive in nature, an immediate reaction to the Byzantine rout in the Battle of Manzikert in 1071, and also a long overdue reaction to centuries of abuse of Christians and Pilgrims in the Holy Land and the Levant.

The party stated that the reason it existed was in order to "defend Christians in the United States from official 'Christophobia' in the public sphere" and "educate the public about the true nature of the Islamic threat to western civilization."

The Party also espoused a brand of "economic nationalism" focused on regulating the labor practices of large corporations and trade protectionism. It also desired to restore the silver standard.

It has endorsed the candidacy of Catholic activist Alan Keyes for President in 2008.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Falangist_Party_of_America

The American Independent Party is a California political party. The party was established in 1967 by Bill Shearer and his wife Eileen.

In 1968, the American Independent Party nominated former Alabama Governor George C. Wallace, as its presidential candidate and retired Air Force General Curtis E. LeMay (as the vice presidential candidate. Wallace ran on every state ballot in the 1968 U.S. Presidential Election.

Many political analysts have theorized that the Party, which has received very few votes in recent California elections, maintains its state ballot status because people join the Party mistakenly believing that they are registering as an "independent," also known as a "non-partisan" or "decline-to-state" voter.[2]

One such voter was Jennifer Siebel, fianceé of San Francisco's liberal Democratic mayor Gavin Newsom; in 2008, Siebel attempted to change her party affiliation from Republican to Non-Partisan, but "checked the American Independent box thinking that was what independent voters were supposed to do," according to the San Francisco Chronicle.[3]

According to Third Party Watch,[4] the AIP split into two factions in June or July of 2008: one recognizing Jim King as chairman of the AIP while the other, recognizing Ed Noonan as chairman, claims the old AIP Website address while the King organization claims the AIP blog address. Ed Noonan's faction held a convention in Sacramento on July 5, 2008.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Independent_Party#Split_in_party

:tongue:

[TomStillwell]

That's super really. But Presidents don't make policy changes without the other two branches of government. Obama's track record is one that hasn't reached across the aisle to get anything done. Why should I believe his Presidency is going to be any different? That's the question he has to answer if he wants my vote.


Do you just listen to Republican talking points or are you actually interested in facts?

Obama has always worked with Republicans to get stuff passed.

This is just off the top of my head:

He joined with Sen. Tom Coburn after Hurricane Katrina to improve oversight of federal spending.

He teamed with Sen. Richard Lugar to pass legislation meant to keep nuclear material from falling into the hands of terrorists.

And he shared billing with John McCain in sponsoring legislation that called for reductions in greenhouse gas emissions.

[PatrickG]

I wouldn't chalk Palin up to McCain being stupid or doing ANYTHING really.

His top four choices were shot down by the party and he was HANDED Palin. It makes me sick to see a war hero reduced to a puppet, even if I do have my disagreements with the man.

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1836909,00.html

Check out the link to his Time interview above. People made lewd cracks about the Manchurian Candidate in the primaries but it seems to me that post-nomination McCain essentially IS the Manchurian Candidate, answering to a GOP elite who don't have the testicular fortitude to run the policy makers on the ballot. He's been castrated. He talks like a hostage. His old fire has been replaced with all the heart of an automation from the old Disney "Small World" ride.

The GOP convention was a barrage of talking points and flag waving claptrap... and while Fred Thompson's speech was not immune from the plague of talking points and marketing slogans (a practice which I want to see shamed, shunned and eliminated in American politics; it's high past time that we kill the soundbyte and require our electorate to become engaged pundits forming their own opinions from a variety of sources), I did feel like Thompson was the only one who managed to break script and inject humanity into the proceedings.

I find myself wishing we were facing Obama/Biden vs. Thompson/Huckabee. As repugnant as I find some of the latter's views, they would be representatives of their own values and not spokesmen for a goddamn party think tank.

I wouldn't vote for a DOG CATCHER affiliated with The GOP until I see the party reject Karl "Turdblossom" Rove's tactics on every imaginable level, to a point where they would never, EVER consider a tactic or approach remotely linked to Rove's crooked machine of talking points and policy decided by wonks who couldn't get elected on their own merits or charisma, hiding behind and propping up malleable sock puppets like Bush and McCain.

[the4thpip]

Again: Most polls used to come to the averages from that map are from the time when the national polls were about 6 points closer as well. Several of the more recent polls (like for Ohio and even Florida) show a switch from McCain to Obama there. It's just that you need one or two more polls per state for it to show up on that map. I wish they had a "just the most recent poll" feature - for some of those states, they factor in polls that are months old!

I don't know why there are so few state polls coming out. Feels like 4 years ago, there were more at this point.

OK, so they don't have a "only most recent poll" feature, but you can look it up yourself and manually change the map.

So with the states included that seem to have swung after the Democratic convention, the map looks like this. Bit of a big "if" on Florida, of course.

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll102/the4thpip/mostrecent.jpg

[KevinTBrown]

Samurai, Stamen, and Briareos just crapped themselves.....

[Adam C]

So, what's Alan Keyes been up to?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Keyes#U.S._Presidential_election_campaign_200 8


He's been endorsed by a fascist political party? That's...not very surprising.

[the4thpip]

Meh, let's just put the National Enquirer on the job! They'd do a better job than the mainstream press, anyways!

McCain Camp Battles National Enquirer Over Alleged Palin Affair


John McCain's presidential campaign is threatening a lawsuit against the National Enquirer over a print edition story the tabloid ran today alleging that Gov. Sarah Palin has had an extramarital affair with her husband's business partner.

The allegation would normally be dismissed by political observers as the random musings of a supermarket tabloid -- indeed, the McCain campaign said as much in its statements on Wednesday -- except that the paper has built up a reservoir of legitimacy following its earlier reporting on the John Edwards affair.

In a statement to the Huffington Post, a spokesman for the paper, who promised a larger report next week, tapped into that pool of quasi-respect.

"The National Enquirer's coverage of a vicious war within Sarah Palin's extended family includes several newsworthy revelations, including the resulting incredible charge of an affair plus details of family strife when the Governor's daughter revealed her pregnancy. Following our John Edwards' exclusives, our political reporting has obviously proven to be more detail-oriented than the McCain campaign's vetting process. Despite the McCain camp's attempts to control press coverage they find unfavorable, The Enquirer will continue to pursue news on both sides of the political spectrum."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/03/mccain-camp-battles-natio_n_123696.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/09/03/politics/fromtheroad/entry4413030.shtml

[Infra-Man]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa... did Palin mock community organizers in her speech? When I listened to it this morning, did I hear that shit right? And did that crowd rally around the idea of showing disdain to community organizers? People who have dedication and a love for the people of their community, and you have the gall to denigrate this love they have for their community.

Man... that's ugly.

But at least we all know she can read pre-written attack lines.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2008/09/putting_words_in_palins_mouth.html

There was a flutter of attention when McCain campaign manager Rick Davis told a group of Post reporters and editors yesterday that his team was having to rework the vice presidential acceptance speech because the original draft, prepared before Gov. Sarah Palin was chosen, was too "masculine." While we all wondered to ourselves what might make a speech masculine or feminine, no one batted an eye at the underlying revelation: that the campaign was writing the nominee's speech before knowing who the nominee would be.

[the4thpip]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa... did Palin mock community organizers in her speech? When I listened to it this morning, did I hear that shit right? And did that crowd rally around the idea of showing disdain to community organizers? People who have dedication and a love for the people of their community, and you have the gall to denigrate this love they have for their community.

Man... that's ugly.

Wonkette put it this way:
Ha ha, community organizers help dirty negroes, but mayors of 6,000-population help white people.

[DavidAllred]

Samurai, Stamen, and Briareos just crapped themselves.....

Not at all, I think Obama would make a fine President.

And with four years of a dem Congress, a dem Senate, and a dem Executive branch, maybe we can get something done in this country. Then, take a hard look at what gets done and have a more honest debate about it.

[KevinTBrown]

Re: The Enquirer's look into Palin.

As loathe as I am to admit it, they were 100% accurate when they discovered and reported John Edwards' affair.

[DavidAllred]

Check out the link to his Time interview above. People made lewd cracks about the Manchurian Candidate in the primaries but it seems to me that post-nomination McCain essentially IS the Manchurian Candidate, answering to a GOP elite who don't have the testicular fortitude to run the policy makers on the ballot. He's been castrated. He talks like a hostage. His old fire has been replaced with all the heart of an automation from the old Disney "Small World" ride.

He had to swing right during the primary -- same way Obama had to swing left -- except McCain had to go further Right than Obama went Left, because Obama pretty much was already standing far Left anyway. Now that the primaries are almost done, watch as both candidates swing to the center.

[the4thpip]

Don't you think it was a great idea for McCain to make a surprise appearance a night earlier than scheduled to congratulate his running made? Obama wouldn't have thought of that!

Oh. Wait.

[the4thpip]

He had to swing right during the primary -- same way Obama had to swing left -- except McCain had to go further Right than Obama went Left, because Obama pretty much was already standing far Left anyway. Now that the primaries are almost done, watch as both candidates swing to the center.

We're actually watching the opposite happen with McCain.
Between the Palin pick and the fringe lunatic platform that was agreed upon during the convention, he keeps drifting further to the right.

[Sean Walsh]

So, what's Alan Keyes been up to?

Has anyone else ever asked that question?

[Corrina]

Re: The Enquirer's look into Palin.

As loathe as I am to admit it, they were 100% accurate when they discovered and reported John Edwards' affair.

Well, I didn't like it with Edwards--though paying off the women is newsworthy, even if the affair isn't.

I don't like it with her, either, but I don't see partisan politics. Just the Enquirer as per usual.

[PatrickG]

We're actually watching the opposite happen with McCain.
Between the Palin pick and the fringe lunatic platform that was agreed upon during the convention, he keeps drifting further to the right.

It's because the evangelical wing of the GOP is an insatiable black hole.

The Republicans need to excise the Hagees and the Dobsons and the Neo-Cons like a malignant tumor.

There's nothing INHERENTLY Republican about, for instance, homophobia and civil inequality. The party can exist divorced from the bigotry of the senile old bigot vote.

It's a pandering move for evangelicals and seniors and an unwinnable battle. I don't know a conservative under 30 who opposes health insurance and hospital visitation for same sex partners. Most young conservatives I know either support gay marriage or favor abolishing marriage altogether as a legal function, replacing it with something less governmentally invasive.

History has already decided a winner on this particular "culture war" as a for-instance. The Republican leadership of 50 years from now will regard the current party with shame and embarrassment for the reactionary stances it's adopting today.

Either the leadership right now is blind or is intentionally cashing in the long term success and health or the party for some quick elections and quick money now, running the organization into the ground for a short term gain.

[Adam C]

...because Obama pretty much was already standing far Left anyway.

Excuse me, but what?

[Infra-Man]

It's a pandering move for evangelicals and seniors and an unwinnable battle. I don't know a conservative under 30 who opposes health insurance and hospital visitation for same sex partners. Most young conservatives I know either support gay marriage or favor abolishing marriage altogether as a legal function, replacing it with something less governmentally invasive.

History has already decided a winner on this particular "culture war" as a for-instance. The Republican leadership of 50 years from now will regard the current party with shame and embarrassment for the reactionary stances it's adopting today.

I'm wondering, actually... How can the younger conservatives and the more old-school conservatives take back the party from the neoconservatives and the religious right?

It seems like this can't be accomplished in one or two election cycles, but are there inklings of that in state or local races--of party in-fighting to wrestle back the reins from the people who've driven conservative policy for two decades or so?

[the4thpip]

Excuse me, but what?

Haven't you heard?
Every Democratic ever who is not Joe Lieberman has the Most Liberal Voting Record in History™.

[the4thpip]

Gwen Ifill is gonna host the VP debate.

[KevinTBrown]

Gwen Ifill is gonna host the VP debate.

She also did the '04 VP debate.

[Major Comma]

Isnt she one of four hosting the debate ?

[Infra-Man]

How the pundits' talking points have changed since Palin's nom, courtesy of The Daily Show

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=184086&title=sarah-palin-gender-card

[the4thpip]

AP fact check for the RNC:
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Attacks_praise_stretch_truth_at_GOP_0904.html

FORMER ARKANSAS GOV. MIKE HUCKABEE: Palin "got more votes running for mayor of Wasilla, Alaska than Joe Biden got running for president of the United States."

THE FACTS: A whopper. Palin got 616 votes in the 1996 mayor's election, and got 909 in her 1999 re-election race, for a total of 1,525. Biden dropped out of the race after the Iowa caucuses, but he still got 76,165 votes in 23 states and the District of Columbia where he was on the ballot during the 2008 presidential primaries.

[EdContradictory]

I'm really scratching my head at what the Republicans are thinking when they run a night of hate such as this on national TV.


It hurt them in 1992. We'll see how it plays out in 2008.

[Alexx1]

AP fact check for the RNC:
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Attacks_praise_stretch_truth_at_GOP_0904.html

FORMER ARKANSAS GOV. MIKE HUCKABEE: Palin "got more votes running for mayor of Wasilla, Alaska than Joe Biden got running for president of the United States."

THE FACTS: A whopper. Palin got 616 votes in the 1996 mayor's election, and got 909 in her 1999 re-election race, for a total of 1,525. Biden dropped out of the race after the Iowa caucuses, but he still got 76,165 votes in 23 states and the District of Columbia where he was on the ballot during the 2008 presidential primaries.

Well not surprising since he misquoted Lincoln in his speech. The Repbulicians have shown historical accuracy and facts aren't a priority this election.

[JeffreyWKramer]

It's because the evangelical wing of the GOP is an insatiable black hole.

The Republicans need to excise the Hagees and the Dobsons and the Neo-Cons like a malignant tumor.

Yes, they do. And smarter Republicans have said this again and again. Bob Dole said it a ways back after seeing the public turn against the hate-mongering and vote for Bill Clinton, and John McCain said it multiple times until the past year or so.

The only way the GOP is going to get out of the grasp of these vile weasels is to refuse to cater to them.

But what ends up happening again is that in attempt to make short-term gains - i.e., win the election at hand - the GOPers repeatedly back away from these intelligent, moderate stances and kiss up to the extremists in order to court their votes. The day after the Republican convention in (I think) 1992, Dole said they need to leave behind the divisiveness of abortion politics, stop worrying about what other people do in their bedrooms and focus on basic principles of fiscal conservatism and lowering taxes. Then three years later, as he is getting ready to launch his campaign, he starts kissing up to the likes of Pat Robertson and Gary Bauer. A couple years ago, McCain rightly summed up the likes of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell as "agents of hate", yet about a year ago he started asking their forgiveness, went and spoke at the loathesome Liberty University, etc., because he knows damn well the only chance he'd have of winning this election, given how badly Bush has fucked things up, was to get those agents of hate on his side. Now he's chosen one of their number as his VP runningmate.

This all makes me ill. It speaks to hypocricy and lack of basic principles, and it isn't the least bit good for the country. I'm very behind a lot of the traditional GOP stances - fiscal conservatism, small government, individual liberties - so it makes me sick to see them keep pissing that away and going along with the bigotry and small-mindedness that characterize social conservatism and the fascism of the neocons, and by doing so continuing to harm their party and the nation, in attempt to win the elections of today.

It's short-sighted, it's stupid and it's harmful.

[Infra-Man]

It's short-sighted, it's stupid and it's harmful.

But sadly, it works.

[Michael P]

How the pundits' talking points have changed since Palin's nom, courtesy of The Daily Show

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=184086&title=sarah-palin-gender-card
They're apparently under the impression that hypocrisy is an Olympic event.

[AllisterH]

Samurai, Stamen, and Briareos just crapped themselves.....

Do the words "Convention Bounce" not mean anything to you?

[the4thpip]

Do the words "Convention Bounce" not mean anything to you?

The situation this year:
Many voters needed the Democratic Convention to get to know Barack Obama.
Few voters watch the Republican convention. Much of day one was canceled. McCain's speech is up against NFL football and Barack Obama will be on the ORLY-Factor the same day.

[the4thpip]

Conservative columnist Peggy Noonan had some 'splaining to do last night. On Wednesday, she -- along with MSNBC's Chuck Todd and prominent GOP strategist Mike Murphy -- was caught on a live mike calling the selection of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin as John McCain's running mate "political bullshit," something at odds with the tone of the column she'd just published. So now she has explained herself. And apologized. Well, to a certain extent, at least.

"Well, I just got mugged by the nature of modern media, and I wish it weren't my fault, but it is," Noonan says in a new introduction appended to the online version of her column from Wednesday. She continues:

In our off-air conversation, I got on the subject of the leaders of the Republican party assuming, now, that whatever the base of the Republican party thinks is what America thinks. I made the case that this is no longer true ... And when I said, "It's over!" -- and I said it more than once -- that is what I was referring to ...

However, I did say two things that I haven't said in public, either in speaking or in my writing. One is a vulgar epithet that I wish I could blame on the mood of the moment but cannot ... But, bottom line, I am certainly sorry I blurted my barnyard ephithet, I am certainly sorry that someone abused my meaning in the use of the words, "It's over," and I'm sorry I didn't have the Kay Bailey Hutchison thought before this morning, because I could have written of it. There. Now: onto today's column.
salon.com war room

[Royal]

I'm wondering, actually... How can the younger conservatives and the more old-school conservatives take back the party from the neoconservatives and the religious right?


I think the primary action is that they have to realize that the neo-con's philisophical base doesn't come from Leon Strauss or Bill Kristol Sr., but from John Meston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Meston) and Erle Stanley Gardner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perry_Mason_(TV_series)). Realizing this, they can visualize the reasoning behind their actions and denouce them.

Framing them as spoiled petulant children also works wonders.

[the4thpip]

On behalf of the media, I would like to say we are sorry...

We have asked questions this week that we should never have asked.

We have asked pathetic questions like: Who is Sarah Palin? What is her record? Where does she stand on the issues? And is she is qualified to be a heartbeat away from the presidency?

We have asked mean questions like: How well did John McCain know her before he selected her? How well did his campaign vet her? And was she his first choice?

Bad questions. Bad media. Bad...

[W]e should stop reporting on the families of the candidates. Unless the candidates want us to.

Sarah Palin wanted the media to report on her teenage son, Track, who enlisted in the Army on Sept. 11, 2007, and soon will deploy to Iraq.

Sarah Palin did not want the media to report on her teenage daughter, Bristol, who is pregnant and unmarried.

Sarah Palin thinks that one is good for her campaign and one is not, and that the media should report only on what is good for her campaign. That is our job, and that is our duty. If that is not actually in the Constitution, it should be. (And someday may be.)

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13143.html

[KevinTBrown]

I saw that, too, Pip.

Gotta love Roger Simon. :smile:

[FalconX2000]

http://blogs.mcall.com/penn_ave/2008/09/obama-back-in-p.html

Looks like Obama wants to sew up Pennsylvania early. Just a couple of days after leaving it, he's back again for 2 days of campaigning.



http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/04/politics/animal/main4414663.shtml

John McCain has endorsed the view that Palin knows foreign policy because Alaska is next to Russia:

GIBSON: But as you know, the questions revolve really around foreign policy experience. Can you honestly say you feel confident having someone who hasn't traveled outside the United States until last year, dealing with an insurgent Russia, with an Iran with nuclear ambitions, with an unstable Pakistan, not to mention the war on terror?

MCCAIN: Sure. And one of the key elements of America's national security requirements are energy. She understands the energy issues better than anybody I know in Washington, D.C., and she understands. Alaska is right next to Russia. She understands that.

I don't know whether to :eek: or :rolleyes:

[Evan Waters]

The Republican Party is really due for a big internal collapse and reorganization. For years they were the Party of George W. Bush, and they put a lot of things aside in order to follow him lock-step. When his fortunes fell, cracks and divisions reappeared.

If McCain wins the election, that might put off the collapse for some short period, but it's really inevitable. They have to decide what they really are. And though I favor the Democrats, a sane and reasonable GOP is something we need. Sarah Palin's a step in the wrong direction, and maybe if they lose this time they'll figure that out.

[KevinTBrown]

Leave it to a comic strip to nail it on the head:

http://picayune.uclick.com/comics/tmsho/2008/tmsho080904.gif

[LtMarvel]

Palin's speech doesn't pass fact check, either (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080904/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_fact_check).

[TomStillwell]

Hilary Rosen had some really good points over at CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/03/rosen.palin/index.html

So why then do I think that Sarah Palin would be a terrible vice president? Because I also think that John McCain would be a terrible president.

I don't care about how Sarah Palin or John McCain take care of their families. I care about how their policy choices affect my family and millions of other Americans.

McCain and Palin get their health insurance paid for by the government (hers in Alaska and his in Washington). Yet they oppose giving the nearly 46 million uninsured Americans the same access to affordable health care.

John McCain's kids don't have to worry about paying for college. Yet he has opposed every single education support program to help others.

McCain and Palin say they will stand up to oil companies. Yet the only energy policy they support gives millions of dollars in tax breaks to oil companies to do more drilling and he has opposed every piece of federal legislation to explore alternative fuel sources.

McCain and Palin say they will revamp how Washington does business. Yet his campaign is filled with lobbyists and she has cooperated with Sen. Ted Stevens in funneling federal money for useless projects in Alaska for years. And McCain and Palin have no solutions for Americans worrying about their jobs in a fragile economy.

McCain and Palin want us to leave their families alone. Yet they want to make rules for our families by eliminating our right to make our own choices over abortion, eliminate our access to family planning education or domestic partner benefits, and our freedom from discrimination.

They want to control what our kids learn in school about sex and about science. In short, through the policies they promote and the judges they support, they want the government to have more control over our private lives than at any time in history.

McCain and Palin now say their campaign is about change, too. Yet the only real change they have proposed is a change from a suit to a skirt in the vice president's office and one man fighting a misplaced war for another in the Oval Office.

That seems to me to be the right reason to oppose them in November. It's not the process or the people, it's what they represent. This unconventional choice of a vice presidential nominee by John McCain won't result in a win in November, because McCain and Palin are the wrong choice for the country.

[Briareos]

Wonkette put it this way:

Go back to discriminating against asians Paul...

[Briareos]

He's got a track record of being stupid. Besides his meet you halfway approach on energy and that one ethics bill with Feingold which Obama himself topped by writing an even better one in his first year in the senate, McCain's horrible.


Was one of the foremost proponents of the 2nd Iraq War.

Ignored Afghanistan while Obama was advocating for additional troops to be sent there since early last year.

Laughed at Obama when the junior senator advocated bombing Al Qaeda in Pakistan if the local government could not or would not respond properly.

He voted against supporting veteren's college education after they've served 4 years.

Refused to entertain notions about talking with America's enemies, a strategy that was proven right before and has been proven right again in the final couple of years of the Bush administration.

Has himself admitted 3 times, most recently in 2006, that he does not understand the economy.

Wants to give the biggest tax cuts to the wealthiest 3% in America (If you're making $100000 or less you're going to see a bigger tax break under Obama).

His budget has been completely torn apart by economists as there is absolutely no way for McCain to pay for his plans except by increasing the national deficit by another several trillion dollars.

Has advocated dismantling the social security public system.

While initially admirably opposing Bush's tax cuts during a time of war, flip flopped on it when he decided to run for election. Now he wants to extend them.

Credits the success of the surge as if he took into account the Sunni Awakening and the standing down of enemy militias before said surge occured into account. He got lucky and wants to trumpet it as judgement.


McCain has been terrible on the issues and he wants to pass off that track record as experience. Obama has been right time and time again.

Yes that's it McCain just got lucky when he was right. And Obama just has to keep scrubbing his website every time events prove him wrong. Oh and we're just suppose to forget your side lying every time they mentioned the word recession when there wasn't one.

[Evan Waters]

Go back to discriminating against asians Paul...

Well, that's a rejoinder that answers all the points raised.

[Buzz Dixon]

That's super really. But Presidents don't make policy changes without the other two branches of government. Obama's track record is one that hasn't reached across the aisle to get anything done. Why should I believe his Presidency is going to be any different? That's the question he has to answer if he wants my vote.He won't need to. The down ticket Republicans are trying to downplay their party affiliation and certainly separate themselves from Bush. There will likely be a Democrat majority for the bulk of Obama's terms.

[Buzz Dixon]

FiveThirtyEight has an interesting look at combined "highly favorable/highly unfavorable" ratings among candidates.

Bottom line: The higher the combined rating, the less vulnerable the candidate. The people know (or at least think they know) who the candidate is. Vulnerable candidates (and they specifically name Kerry) are candidates who are unknown; people haven't made their minds up about them yet. Kerry's name had popped up in the news over the years, but he was really well known only in Massachusetts.

Palin is as unknown as they come.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/09/cognitive-dissonance.html

[Matt Doc Martin]

Yes that's it McCain just got lucky when he was right. And Obama just has to keep scrubbing his website every time events prove him wrong. Oh and we're just suppose to forget your side lying every time they mentioned the word recession when there wasn't one.

Name a leading economist who thinks the economy is strong? Name a leading economist who does NOT feel like a recession is imminent?

Now is NOT the time to place your fairly empty head in the sand in the name of Republican pride.

[TomStillwell]

I found this nugget:

Karl Rove on Meet the Press:

With all due respect again to Governor Kaine, he's been a governor for three years, he's been able but undistinguished," Rove said. "I don't think people could really name a big, important thing that he's done. He was mayor of the 105th largest city in America."

Rove continued: "So if he were to pick Governor Kaine, it would be an intensely political choice where he said, `You know what? I'm really not, first and foremost, concerned with, is this person capable of being president of the United States."

[TCJohnson]

Tom,

Just watch this: http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=184086&title=sarah-palin-gender-card

[Suzanne]

So, what's Alan Keyes been up to?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Keyes#U.S._Presidential_election_campaign_200 8


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Falangist_Party_of_America


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Independent_Party#Split_in_party

:tongue:What hole did he crawl out of? Whichever one, they can have him. He was a perennial loser here in Maryland, so apparently nothing's changed. While he's at it, he can take Michael Steele with him :rolleyes:

[FalconX2000]

Yes that's it McCain just got lucky when he was right. And Obama just has to keep scrubbing his website every time events prove him wrong. Oh and we're just suppose to forget your side lying every time they mentioned the word recession when there wasn't one.

You'll have to give me specific examples, because his campaign has edited his site a number of times for various reasons, none of which come to mind as bad. And the American economy is in recession, deal with it.

And that was...a number of months ago. It hasn't become the dictionary definition of recession yet?

[Paul McEnery]

You'll have to give me specific examples, because his campaign has edited his site a number of times for various reasons, none of which come to mind as bad. And the American economy is in recession, deal with it.

And that was...a number of months ago. It hasn't become the dictionary definition of recession yet?

Not technically.

The UK is, though. Because of the America-induced credit crunch. Gee, thanks!

[TCJohnson]

You'll have to give me specific examples, because his campaign has edited his site a number of times for various reasons, none of which come to mind as bad. And the American economy is in recession, deal with it.

And that was...a number of months ago. It hasn't become the dictionary definition of recession yet?


Nope. The dictionary definition of a recession is two quarters or more of negitive growth of the GDP. The GDP is still seeing positive growth, even though everything else is in the crapper.

[Charles RB]

I can't fathom how any sane person could assume that if there were no military, if it were disbanded or if the budget and troop levels were cut, then the U.S. of A. would suddenly have a gigantic foreign army descending on it and occupying it. All you really need for defense is the National Guard, maybe the Air Force.

Actually, not quite right - you'd need the navy and air force to ensure America is protected, because by air and sea is the only way any nation besides Mexico or Canada can reach you. Strong enough navy and air force, you're fine.

That and possessing an economy so large and global, that any assault on America would mess up everyone.


I'm really scratching my head at what the Republicans are thinking when they run a night of hate such as this on national TV.

After she started? Probably "oh bollocks".

[Sally Sensational]

After she started? Probably "oh bollocks".

I couldn't help but notice during Palin's speech (and I watched it on C-Span without commentary) that, whenever the cameras panned the crowd, there were a lot of unhappy faces. It was a striking comparison to last week's crowd at the DNC.

Cindy McCain looked happy, though. Probably because she realized that, if Palin becomes VP, she'll be able to get away with running naked across the White House lawn hopped up on PCP because she still won't be nearly the troublemaker that Palin will be.

[Briareos]

You'll have to give me specific examples, because his campaign has edited his site a number of times for various reasons, none of which come to mind as bad. And the American economy is in recession, deal with it.

And that was...a number of months ago. It hasn't become the dictionary definition of recession yet?

Nope we actually had 3.3 percent growth last quarter. A recession is 2 consective quarters of econmic decline it hasn't happened. So please stop lying.

[Buzz Dixon]

Name a leading economist who thinks the economy is strong? Name a leading economist who does NOT feel like a recession is imminent?

Now is NOT the time to place your fairly empty head in the sand in the name of Republican pride.Nine banks have failed this year and been taken over by the Feds. more to come, in all likelihood.

[Briareos]

Well, that's a rejoinder that answers all the points raised.

He supports policies that have been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to deny Asians from going to college purely due to their ethnicity.

[the4thpip]

Well, that's a rejoinder that answers all the points raised.

Except maybe "who's Paul?"

[KevinTBrown]

Except maybe "who's Paul?"

He's the Walrus.

[TCJohnson]

He supports policies that have been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to deny Asians from going to college purely due to their ethnicity.

care to give us a source?

[the4thpip]

Today's business news - bad news from the employment and retail sectors send stocks tumbling in a US economy "teetering on a recession."

Sept. 4 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. stocks fell, sending the Standard & Poor's 500 Index to the longest stretch of losses since January, after rising jobless claims heightened concern the economic slump is worsening and a decline in oil pushed energy producers lower.

Caterpillar Inc., Boeing Co. and United Technologies Corp. retreated as much as 5.9 percent after higher unemployment spurred concern about tomorrow's monthly jobs report. Exxon Mobil Corp. dragged energy shares in the S&P 500 to the lowest level since February. Banks and brokerages fell 4.2 percent after bond investor Bill Gross warned of a ``financial tsunami.''

The S&P 500 dropped for a fourth day, decreasing 32.55 points, or 2.6 percent, to 1,242.43 at 3:30 p.m. in New York, sinking the most since June 26. The Dow Jones Industrial Average lost 304.18, or 2.6 percent, to 11,228.70. The Nasdaq Composite Index slipped 64.71, or 2.8 percent, to 2,269.02. Nine stocks fell for each that rose on the New York Stock Exchange.

``If you look at the data we have on the U.S. and global economy, things are only getting worse and that leads me to believe that demand is going to slow down and slow down pretty quickly,'' Diane Garnick, a New York-based investment strategist at Invesco Ltd., which manages more than $500 billion, told Bloomberg Radio.

Stock-index futures started falling after the Labor Department said at 8:30 a.m. New York time that the number of Americans collecting unemployment benefits reached a five-year high. The selling accelerated as oil declined at 10 a.m. The majority of the drop occurred after the S&P 500 slipped below 1,261.16, a one-month intraday low that traders said represented a level of support for the market.

$500 Billion in Losses

The S&P 500 has lost 15 percent in 2008 as subprime-related losses at global banks climbed above $500 billion and the U.S. economy teetered on the brink of a recession. This week's losses pared the rebound in the benchmark stock index to 2.3 percent from an almost three-year low set on July 15.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aresOUU7ritA&refer=home

[Paul McEnery]

care to give us a source?

He thinks affirmative action is racist against asians.

Funny little man that he is, he doesn't seem to understand that this is a load of bollocks, and something people only say because when they hate African-Americans.

I'm sure Bri doesn't actually hate African-Americans, mind; but he sure listens to a lot of people who do.

[the4thpip]

care to give us a source?

Dollars to donuts he's speaking of affirmative action.

[Paul McEnery]

He's the Walrus.

But who is the Eggman?

[Grazzt]

But who is the Eggman?

I am he...

[Michael P]

But who is the Eggman?

Dr. Robotnik?

[Matt Doc Martin]

Nope we actually had 3.3 percent growth last quarter. A recession is 2 consective quarters of econmic decline it hasn't happened. So please stop lying.

Lying?

Are you high on crack as we speak?

So the dictionary definition of a recession may not be met yet, but again, is the economy in good shape?

Do you feel like the economy is strong right now and that there is no danger of a recession, despite what all the leading economists say?

[Paul McEnery]

I am he...

Ah, but you are me.

[Royal]

Ah, but you are me.

And we are all togethhheerrrr.

[Paul McEnery]

And we are all togethhheerrrr.

I think I just came.

[Michael P]

I think I just came.

Goo goo ga joob.

[the4thpip]

Palin's national guard faces a crisis in personnel

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Alaska National Guard, which Republicans are pointing to as an important national-security credential for vice presidential choice Sarah Palin, has personnel shortages that make its aviation units the most poorly staffed in the nation.

Just six months ago, Air Force Maj. Gen. Craig Campbell, the Alaska Guard's top officer, warned in an internal memo that "missions are at risk." The lack of qualified airmen, Campbell said, "has reached a crisis level."



http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iT8aoviwbHBFg8jpTnrik8i3EAjgD9300R700

[the4thpip]

Do the words "Convention Bounce" not mean anything to you?

http://media.gallup.com/poll/graphs/080904DailyUpdateGraph1_tyhnmbv.gif

Shouldn't McCain begin to have one by now?

[the4thpip]

Barack and Michelle Obama are ‘uppity,’ says Lynn Westmoreland

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

The Hill newspaper up in Washington just threw a small hand grenade into the presidential contest that’s being conducted in our fair state:

Georgia Republican Rep. Lynn Westmoreland used the racially-tinged term “uppity” to describe Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama Thursday.

Westmoreland was discussing vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin’s speech with reporters outside the House chamber and was asked to compare her with Michelle Obama.

“Just from what little I’ve seen of her and Mr. Obama, Sen. Obama, they’re a member of an elitist-class individual that thinks that they’re uppity,” Westmoreland said.

Asked to clarify that he used the word “uppity,” Westmoreland said, “Uppity, yeah.”


http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/shared-blogs/ajc/politicalinsider/entries/2008/09/04/barack_and_michelle_obama_are.html

[LtMarvel]

Outside the margin of error, the Electoral Map (http://www.electoral-vote.com/)looks like this:

Obama 260, McCain 176 (270 needed to win)

Counting the statistical ties, Obama 298, McCain 227 (VA tied 13)

[Infra-Man]

Well, though this is in reference to earlier stuff, given the tone and tenor of last night's RNC, this video has a little more oomph.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rUTXfuz6S0

[Charles RB]

And like so many have said, our troops can home with honor, not with their tails between their legs.

Troop withdrawal is happening in places like Anbar because the Sunni militias got paid off, and Sunni militias are a big part of the new security policy.

These heavily-armed militias are seperate to the Iraqi government and have recently been clashing with it. In the long-term, this could go massively tits-up.

On top of which the proposed withdrawal was mentioned after Obama had been talking about troop withdrawals and strategies for doing so which the Iraqis turned out to be receptive to - he's hardly had no influence.


McCain's stance on torture is a perplexing one for sure. But the rest of the list will all come out in the wash.

How do you mean? Sex education won't, look who the VP is now. What policy differences has McCain shown he'd take on climate change? How different is his education policy to Bush's? And McCain's shown an aggressive take on foreign policy and his party has rubbished the idea of talking to Iran, so why's the issue of clashing with Iran going to go away? And don't get me started on his comments on Russia (not that our leader of the conservative opposition was any better)...

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa... did Palin mock community organizers in her speech? When I listened to it this morning, did I hear that shit right? And did that crowd rally around the idea of showing disdain to community organizers?

Yes, yes and yes.

Suddenly, British politics seems GREAT.

[kingdom2000]

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iT8aoviwbHBFg8jpTnrik8i3EAjgD9300R700

GASP!!!

Palin, the COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF of the Alaska National Guard ignored memos about the ability for the troops to do their jobs. Does she not love the troops?

[Briareos]

Lying?

Are you high on crack as we speak?

So the dictionary definition of a recession may not be met yet, but again, is the economy in good shape?

Do you feel like the economy is strong right now and that there is no danger of a recession, despite what all the leading economists say?

All those leading economists you are so fond of said there was no way we could have 3.3 percent growth last quarter... Yes the economy is doing quite well unemployment and inflation are very low. Are there parts of the economy that could be doing better sure but the basic foundation is doing pretty good. And I love that term dictionary definition. Your basically saying "ignore my incompetence/lying!!!"

[Briareos]

care to give us a source?


http://media.www.browndailyherald.com/media/storage/paper472/news/2008/02/13/HigherEd/Without.Affirmative.Action.Asian.Admission.Rates.R ise-3206465.shtml

[Black Atom]

Nope. The dictionary definition of a recession is two quarters or more of negitive growth of the GDP. The GDP is still seeing positive growth, even though everything else is in the crapper.

Which, naturally, means nothing. The GDP only measures the amount of money being spent, as opposed to the amount of wealth being accumulated or actual production, which are real indicators of economic strength. The current administration has relied heavily on ever-growing GDP numbers (which can be inflated by ANY sort of spending, including inherently costly endeavors like clean-up in the wake of Katrina) to cover up the abject weakness of the current US economy while the real indicators are all around us in lost jobs, production slowed to a stand-still, a real estate debacle and bank runs.

[Infra-Man]

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/shared-blogs/ajc/politicalinsider/entries/2008/09/04/barack_and_michelle_obama_are.html

Wow... ummm... "uppity". Eegah. Man. The Fark folks will have a field day with this one.

Somewhat related satire...
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/portrayal_of_obama_as_elitist

[Infra-Man]

Which, naturally, means nothing. The GDP only measures the amount of money being spent, as opposed to the amount of wealth being accumulated or actual production, which are real indicators of economic strength. The current administration has relied heavily on ever-growing GDP numbers (which can be inflated by ANY sort of spending, including inherently costly endeavors like clean-up in the wake of Katrina) to cover up the abject weakness of the current US economy while the real indicators are all around us in lost jobs, production slowed to a stand-still, a real estate debacle and bank runs.

I think there was an editorial in Harper's Magazine that covered similar material a few months ago.

[Charles RB]

Name a leading economist who thinks the economy is strong? Name a leading economist who does NOT feel like a recession is imminent?

The Chancellor of the Exchequer in the UK outright said the economy is iffy, and it's his job to increase confidence in the damn thing.

Strangely enough, I thought other countries like America were in the same situation...

[Charles RB]

I couldn't help but notice during Palin's speech (and I watched it on C-Span without commentary) that, whenever the cameras panned the crowd, there were a lot of unhappy faces. It was a striking comparison to last week's crowd at the DNC.

Like I say, "oh bollocks".

And possibly also "arsebiscuits" and "JESUS SHIT".

[Paul McEnery]

Like I say, "oh bollocks".

And possibly also "arsebiscuits" and "JESUS SHIT".

On the plus side, most of them were already wearing depends.

[TomStillwell]

Yes the economy is doing quite well unemployment and inflation are very low.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/sns-ap-wall-street,0,4187589.story

Meanwhile, the Labor Department said new applications for unemployment insurance rose by 15,000 last week from the previous week.

[Matt Doc Martin]

All those leading economists you are so fond of said there was no way we could have 3.3 percent growth last quarter... Yes the economy is doing quite well unemployment and inflation are very low. Are there parts of the economy that could be doing better sure but the basic foundation is doing pretty good. And I love that term dictionary definition. Your basically saying "ignore my incompetence/lying!!!"

The Chancellor of the Exchequer in the UK outright said the economy is iffy, and it's his job to increase confidence in the damn thing.

Strangely enough, I thought other countries like America were in the same situation...

Well, if you listen to gits like Briareros, we are all ok. In fact, check your wallet! I am sure you missed a few thousand dollars/pounds/euros that you never knew you had.

Heck, gas prices are at their lowest and I am sure the deficit is going away any day now.

[Matt Doc Martin]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/sns-ap-wall-street,0,4187589.story


DAMN YOUR FACTS!!!

[Black Atom]

It's no wonder no one can figure out how shitty the economy really is with the government double dipping with both the GDP and CPI numbers which they love to trot out to assauge everyone's fears. For example, rising energy costs can (and does) contribute to the continuing growth of GDP (which the government assures everyone is good thing) yet at the same time the Fed encourages focus only on the "core inflation" rate, which does not include "volatile" factors like food and energy. If you've been overlooking the headline inflation rate (which includes everything) in favor of the core rate for the last couple years, you missed a rather precipitous, and very real, climb in inflation. Of course, if you've handled any money at all in the last year, you've already felt it.

[Paul McEnery]

It's no wonder no one can figure out how shitty the economy really is with the government double dipping with both the GDP and CPI numbers which they love to trot out to assauge everyone's fears. For example, rising energy costs can (and does) contribute to the continuing growth of GDP (which the government assures everyone is good thing) yet at the same time the Fed encourages focus only on the "core inflation" rate, which does not include "volatile" factors like food and energy. If you've been overlooking the headline inflation rate (which includes everything) in favor of the core rate for the last couple years, you missed a rather precipitous, and very real, climb in inflation. Of course, if you've handled any money at all in the last year, you've already felt it.

I think it's more the fact that I've got less money to handle does the trick. :biggrin:

[Briareos]

Welp all that talk about Palin cutting funds for teenage mothers was a lie too:

http://michellemalkin.com/2008/09/04/not-again-palin-slashes-another-childrens-programby-increasing-funding/

[Michael P]

It's no wonder no one can figure out how shitty the economy really is with the government double dipping with both the GDP and CPI numbers which they love to trot out to assauge everyone's fears. For example, rising energy costs can (and does) contribute to the continuing growth of GDP (which the government assures everyone is good thing) yet at the same time the Fed encourages focus only on the "core inflation" rate, which does not include "volatile" factors like food and energy. If you've been overlooking the headline inflation rate (which includes everything) in favor of the core rate for the last couple years, you missed a rather precipitous, and very real, climb in inflation. Of course, if you've handled any money at all in the last year, you've already felt it.

I've said for years that measuring the health of the economy by how well the rich were doing is a terrible way of running a country.

Apparently, that makes me an enemy of freedom.

[Arrogantcur]

The whole RNC thus far reminds me of six graders on a school park trying to bullying and scare folks.

I'm getting caught up on this thread just now, having not looked at it since last night, but: AMEN TO THAT!

Since Palin is on record as saying she doesn't like negative campaigning, I figured she would have let guys like Giuliani and Romney do her dirty work for her while she presented herself as the good cop, the sweet family woman. At first she did sort of do that; she talked about herself and her family and her home and so forth. Then she proceeded to show just how vile she was capable of being.

This...thing...cannot be allowed anywhere near the Vice Presidency. No decent person would give a speech like that, whether it was written for her or not.

McCain claims to be honorable. HAH! If he really cared about behaving honorably, he wouldn't stoop to these kinds of tactics and he wouldn't have chosen a running mate who was willing to do so.

He's already claimed he'd prefer to lose an election if it meant winning a war. If he had any of the honor he claims to, he would have also said "I'd rather lose an election than win it by relying on the same vile tactics the Bushies used against me in the 2000 primaries."

[Charles RB]

Welp all that talk about Palin cutting funds for teenage mothers was a lie too:

http://michellemalkin.com/2008/09/04/not-again-palin-slashes-another-childrens-programby-increasing-funding/

Your source is Michelle Malkin.

As she's known for heavy partisanship, distortion and lying, I'll wait for someone else to look through that link to see if there's any accuracy.

But I'm betting not cos she wrote it and you posted it.

[TCJohnson]

Obama and McCain are now tied:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13168.html

[Paul McEnery]

Your source is Michelle Malkin.

As she's known for heavy partisanship, distortion and lying, I'll wait for someone else to look through that link to see if there's any accuracy.

But I'm betting not cos she wrote it and you posted it.

I just looked it up.

Because you are a lazy bastard, and you have just cost me five minutes of dipping my eyeballs into sewage, and I hate you.

And yeah, she's lying.

But cunningly!

The budget was raised the year before. Palin slashed the budget back down. Therefore,

um,

no wait a minute,

No, she still slashed the budget, then.

[Paul McEnery]

Obama and McCain are now tied:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13168.html

And yet, strangely, that's not what the story says at all.

CBS has a poll that's at variance with everyone else. Otherwise, things look just like they were before.

Still, we'll see.

[Nick Soapdish]

Very true..however

Clinton Fucked us
Dubya Fucked us
Kerry (the poor dumb fuck) fucked himself which fucked us

The Dems until recently continued to fuck each other, wich was fucking up. and Would have fucked us if McCain were smarter.


So how many times do you plan on falling for the same trick?

I brought it up because you specifically complained about something that I've personally heard politicians doing in 3 of the last four races and seemed to think that it was something new.

I'm not voting for Obama because he says that he wants change. I'm voting for Obama because I read a couple of his speeches, listened to parts of a few more and read his 64-page plan that attempts to outline what he wants to do. (And yes, it's called The Blueprint for Change.) I don't agree with all of it, but I do like a lot of what I read and I like a lot of what I've read about what he's done in the past.

Unfortunately, it's a bit hard to report on her no-sex-ed and cutting-money-to-teen-mothers policies without, y'know, bringing her un-edded teen-mother daughter into it.

But I'd be all in favour of further media attention to her corruption, bullying and inability to handle a mayor position.

I gotta disagree there. You can still bring up her support for abstinence-only sex ed and cutting cutting money for teen mothers without directly referencing it. Just ask her why she supports that and why she thinks that it works. Anyway, I think that some voters might get the hint.

When it comes to dirty questions, what I'd want to ask her is when somebody told her what the vice president does and what she thought about all the media attention on Britney's sister (including O'Reilly blaming the parents).

I am watching CSPAN.
does anybody know why Arizona passed during the Roll Call of the states ?
Isnt that McCains home state?
just thought that was curious.

Illinois passed during the DNC. I assume that they wanted to hold out so that they could be the state that put him over the top although it was orchestrated a bit differently so they wound up going right before New York and Hillary calling for Obama to win by acclamation.


I'm pretty close to making up my mind to go with McCain / Palin.

That is such a surprise. You complained about Obama not choosing a more moderate running mate and applauded when McCain chose a more conservative running mate. I wasn't expecting you to vote Republican this race at all.

Because I believe that the only thing "broken" right now is America's foriegn policy and the war in Iraq. McCain loses a foreign policy debate with Obama. Obama own McCain's ass in that department. Iraq now has a scheduled troop-withdrawl -- and with no help from Obama. He didn't orchestrate it. And like so many have said, our troops can home with honor, not with their tails between their legs. Obama should have worked for that kind of withdrawl, and settled for nothing less.

So the Iraq issue is off the table for me as a voter. Troops are coming home. The Iraqi's seem pleased. The Dems ought to be happy. But no, rather than celebrate a troop withdrawl, apparently some on the fringe left are so pissed they're willing to throw buckets of bleach on old people... umm, not my kind of people.

What's that leave? A deficit? You mean the one caused by the war that should have never been fought? That's done. Next?

What am I supposed to be so pissed about as an American?

The deficit is $482 billion this year and we're spending $193 billion in Iraq this year. The war is far from the only reason for the deficit. And the deficit is far from the only thing wrong with the economy.

And one of the candidates had their economic policy written by a guy that helped loosen the regulations on the mortgage industry and still thought that it was too heavily regulated (before he "resigned" from the campaign). That same candidate has repeatedly said "I don't know much about the economy".

Yeah. I noticed.

[Sabrinaset]

And now, for some more stories in the news ...

Stylists don't like Palin. (http://news.bostonherald.com/news/2008/view.bg?articleid=1116858&srvc=2008campaign&position=8) Well, at least we know why Gail hates her!

Want a Palin thong? (http://www.adn.com/sarah-palin/story/514160.html)

According to Biden, Obama might pursue criminal charges against Bush administration. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/03/uselections2008.joebiden)

Clinton aides say Pailin's treatment is sexist. (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13129.html)

Obama says the Troop Surge was extremely successful. (http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/09/04/obama-surge-succeeded-beyond-wildest-dreams/)

[Corrina]

Did anyone watch Obama on O'Reilly tonight? Anywhere I can get video?

[Sabrinaset]

Did anyone watch Obama on O'Reilly tonight? Anywhere I can get video?

The last link in my post above yours recaps some of it ... I'll look for a video for you ...

[Stressfactor]

Ladies and gentlemen I present to you -- the "Truth-o-Meter" from the politifact website. This group has set out to examine the claims made in speeches of BOTH parties and evaluates their varying levels of truthfulness.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/

[KevinTBrown]

Did anyone watch Obama on O'Reilly tonight? Anywhere I can get video?

Not really worth it. Classic "bait & switch".

You see what amounts to be about 10% of an interview, the remaining parts (yes, plural) will be seen Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday next week.

I'll admit this: Obama was very cool under pressure when O'Reilly was trying to bait him, and O'Reilly was beginning to whine a bit when he was trying to get Obama to admit the he (Obama) was wrong about the surge.

Best bet is to wait until all the parts are shown then stream it. This way you see as little of O'Reilly as possible.

Thank GOD I DVR'd it and could fast forward.

[Arrogantcur]

Ladies and gentlemen I present to you -- the "Truth-o-Meter" from the politifact website. This group has set out to examine the claims made in speeches of BOTH parties and evaluates their varying levels of truthfulness.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/

Thanks. It looks accurate to me, except for this:

McCain consistently opposed to torture

False. He's consistently claimed to oppose it but, as Peter David points out here (http://peterdavid.malibulist.com/archives/006086.html), McCain voted against a ban on waterboarding. Waterboarding is torture.

If anybody thinks Obama is a hypocrite for voting to give telecom companies immunity from lawsuits, when those telecom companies helped the Bush Administration illegally eavesdrop on phone conversations, fine. Much as I hate to acknowledge it, Obama did cast that vote, and it made me less sure of what sort of President he'd be.

But any hypocrisy exhibited by Obama by casting that vote pales in comparison to the hypocrisy of John McCain voting in favour of waterboarding.

[section 8]

Um Dude, IT'S FOX!!!
What? did you expect them to be fair?

[Paul McEnery]

Want a Palin thong? (http://www.adn.com/sarah-palin/story/514160.html)

I've already had enough of the Palin drome.

[kingdom2000]

As a sign that Palin is the same as all other republican politicians (as if didn't already know that), she was a director (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/01/palin_was_a_director_of_embatt.html) of a 527 group early in here career for that Whore Ted Stevens.

ST. PAUL -- Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin began building clout in her state's political circles in part by serving as a director of an independent political group organized by the now embattled Alaska Sen. Ted Stevens.

Palin's name is listed on 2003 incorporation papers of the "Ted Stevens Excellence in Public Service, Inc.," a 527 group that could raise unlimited funds from corporate donors. The group was designed to serve as a political boot camp for Republican women in the state. She served as one of three directors until June 2005, when her name was replaced on state filings.

Palin's relationship with Alaska's senior senator may be one of the more complicated aspects of her new position as Sen. John McCain's running mate; Stevens was indicted in July 2008 on seven counts of corruption.

If notice the timeline, apparently being head of that group gave her the connections needed to launch her political career in full force. Either way, for a person that claims to be against corruption, she seemed to work hand in hand with one of the most corrupt men in Congress (nevermind her immediate abuse of power).

[KevinTBrown]

Obama and McCain are now tied:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13168.html

Um, ok.....

Gallup has Obama by 7.
Rassmussen has Obama by 5.

All 3 polls taken during the same 3 day period.

And Gallup is the ONLY poll both parties agree with.

[Nick Soapdish]

Um, ok.....

Gallup has Obama by 7.
Rassmussen has Obama by 5.

All 3 polls taken during the same 3 day period.

And Gallup is the ONLY poll both parties agree with.

As far as I'm concerned all the polls are wrong. They're likely to be overcounting support for Obama based on people not wanting to admit voting against him. And likely to be undercounting his support among those that have only cell phones or the young if they turn up to vote this time which seems slightly more likely.

But most importantly, it's two months until the election. Lots of things can change in that time.

[Arrogantcur]

But most importantly, it's two months until the election. Lots of things can change in that time.

I sure won't stop worrying until the election's come and gone and (hopefully) McCain's presidential hopes have been crushed.

[IamtheRock3]

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/portrayal_of_obama_as_elitist

thought this was funny

[section 8]

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/portrayal_of_obama_as_elitist

thought this was funny

oh my gawd!! dude i could't stop laughing,

seriously i had pause it to catch my breath.

[FalconX2000]

Not technically.

The UK is, though. Because of the America-induced credit crunch. Gee, thanks!

Pfft. That's almost as bad as Japan blaming its youth being more focused on entertainment as the reason for its decade long slump when its products go through 10 middlemen.:tongue:



Nope we actually had 3.3 percent growth last quarter. A recession is 2 consective quarters of econmic decline it hasn't happened. So please stop lying.

I notice I still don't have an example of a website scrub you object to.:rolleyes:

No, its not lying. If the vast majority of the country is suffering economically for a sustained period, the closest word people have for it is recession. There are plenty of nations with deceptive GDPs, because the wealth is concentrated in a few ultra-wealthy people while the rest of the country is in the dumps. If the GDP is rising and average family's incomes are dropping, you know something's horribly wrong.

[section 8]

Not technically.

The UK is, though. Because of the America-induced credit crunch. Gee, thanks!

Umm your welcome
thank you for Hugh Grant...no really... what a talent that guy is:rolleyes:

[LtMarvel]

Actually, since Obama's support comes from groups not usually voting in strong numbers, I suspect that the polls underrepresent Obama.

[Black Vespa]

As far as I'm concerned all the polls are wrong. They're likely to be overcounting support for Obama based on people not wanting to admit voting against him. And likely to be undercounting his support among those that have only cell phones or the young if they turn up to vote this time which seems slightly more likely.

But most importantly, it's two months until the election. Lots of things can change in that time.

polls are crap.

[KevinTBrown]

As far as I'm concerned all the polls are wrong. They're likely to be overcounting support for Obama based on people not wanting to admit voting against him. And likely to be undercounting his support among those that have only cell phones or the young if they turn up to vote this time which seems slightly more likely.

But most importantly, it's two months until the election. Lots of things can change in that time.

I forget who pointed it out (Pip?), but the polls only contact those who are "likely voters", in other words those who have voted in the past 2 elections.

Those under 25 year olds aren't being counted.

[section 8]

polls are crap.

here here!!

[FalconX2000]

Oh, remember the huge insta-boost in fundraising immediately after McCain chose Palin?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/04/AR2008090403433.html

Obama got $10 million immediately after Palin's speech.




http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/09/04/1349429.aspx

Also, the campaign is finally starting to hit back harder on the RNC:

On the community organizer criticism: "They [Republicans] haven't talked about the fact that I was a civil rights lawyer; they haven't talked about the fact that I taught constitutional law; they haven't talked about my work in the state legislature, in the United States Senate," he said. "They're talking about the three years of work that I did right out of college as if that's-- I'm making the leap from two or three years out of college into the presidency."

Obama added though that his work as a community organizer was relevant to who he is and the kind of people he's "fighting for."

"Why would that kind of work be ridiculous?" Obama said. "Who are they fighting for? What are they advocating for? They think that the lives of those folks who are struggling each and every day, that working with them to try to improve their lives is somehow not relevant to the presidency? I think maybe that's the problem -- that's part of why they're out of touch and they don't get it 'cause they haven't spent much time working on behalf of those folks."

[Buzz Dixon]

As far as I'm concerned all the polls are wrong. They're likely to be overcounting support for Obama based on people not wanting to admit voting against him. And likely to be undercounting his support among those that have only cell phones or the young if they turn up to vote this time which seems slightly more likely.

But most importantly, it's two months until the election. Lots of things can change in that time.Presidential polls are taken by calling registered voters who have voted in the last two elections on their land lines.

That skews much, much older. Whiter, too.

Obama has done something no other politician has been able to do since the voting age was lowered to 18: Get large numbers of young people to register -- specifically, register Democrat -- and to actually show up at polls and vote.

These new voters don't use land lines, they're all on cells -- and the pollsters aren't using cell phone numbers for their calls.

Add to that the fact African-Americans are going to turn out in HUGE numbers and I think the poll results are actually very, very...uh...conservative.

[Nick Soapdish]

I forget who pointed it out (Pip?), but the polls only contact those who are "likely voters", in other words those who have voted in the past 2 elections.

Those under 25 year olds aren't being counted.

That's why I said they were being undercounted, but I'm only hoping that's the case. We won't really know until the election. Maybe not even then.

Presidential polls are taken by calling registered voters who have voted in the last two elections on their land lines.

That skews much, much older. Whiter, too.

Obama has done something no other politician has been able to do since the voting age was lowered to 18: Get large numbers of young people to register -- specifically, register Democrat -- and to actually show up at polls and vote.

These new voters don't use land lines, they're all on cells -- and the pollsters aren't using cell phone numbers for their calls.

Add to that the fact African-Americans are going to turn out in HUGE numbers and I think the poll results are actually very, very...uh...conservative.

Yeah, I've heard the theory.

But I've also heard that this time the youth are going to get out and vote before. And pretty much ... they haven't.

I'm hopeful that it'll change this time, but I'm not banking on it.

[rick]

Yeah, I've heard the theory.

But I've also heard that this time the youth are going to get out and vote before. And pretty much ... they haven't.

I'm hopeful that it'll change this time, but I'm not banking on it.



They certainly showed up in large numbers for the primaries.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

They certainly showed up in large numbers for the primaries.

And that's just the primaries...

[Nick Soapdish]

They certainly showed up in large numbers for the primaries.

And I hope that trend continues.

[LtMarvel]

That's why I said they were being undercounted, but I'm only hoping that's the case. We won't really know until the election. Maybe not even then.



Yeah, I've heard the theory.

But I've also heard that this time the youth are going to get out and vote before. And pretty much ... they haven't.

I'm hopeful that it'll change this time, but I'm not banking on it.
There are a lot of college age students excited by Obama. It's just crazy!

[rick]

And I hope that trend continues.


I hope so too.

At the same time though after my surprising conversation today with a very nice young black man who is a hardcore McCain voter, I don't count on all of those young people to be in the Obama camp.

[FalconX2000]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080904.wConvention-organizer05/BNStory/International

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-09-04-community_N.htm

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/04/martin.community/?iref=mpstoryview

3 informative (and in Roland Martin's case, moving) pieces in reaction to Guiliani's and Palin's slam on community organisers.

[Major Comma]

The youth vote didnt come out here in california during the primary .
What happens on election day I have no idea

[Major Comma]

The youth vote didnt come out here in california during the primary .
What happens on election day I have no idea

[Major Comma]

The youth vote didnt come out here in California during the primary .
What happens on election day I have no idea.

[Samurai]

Obama & McCain now tied, in a poll taken before the Republican convention was even finished:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/04/opinion/polls/main4416798.shtml

CBS Poll: McCain, Obama Tied
McCain Closes Eight-Point Gap From Poll Taken Last Weekend

(CBS) The presidential race between Barack Obama and John McCain is now even at 42 percent, according to a new CBS News poll conducted Monday-Wednesday of this week. Twelve percent are undecided according to the poll, and one percent said they wouldn't vote.

This is in contrast to a poll conducted last weekend, where the Obama-Biden ticket led McCain-Palin by eight points, 48 percent to 40 percent.

McCain has also closed the enthusiasm gap some with Obama, but it still exists. Fifty-five percent of Obama's supporters are enthusiastic about their choice, and now so are 35% of McCain's. Last weekend, just 25 percent of McCain's supporters were enthusiastic about him, compared to 67 of Obama's supporters.

I bet after the effects of Palin's and McCain's extremely good speeches are factored in, they might even pull ahead... Oh, and numbers show that nearly as many people watch Palin's speech as Obama's (37 million to his 38), despite the fact that his speech was carried on 10 networks and hers only on 6. And she completely blew away the viewer numbers for Biden, which was only 24 million.

http://www.marketingvox.com/palin-acceptance-speech-draws-37m-viewers-utterly-outshines-biden-040789/

[the4thpip]

And yet, strangely, that's not what the story says at all.

CBS has a poll that's at variance with everyone else. Otherwise, things look just like they were before.

Still, we'll see.

And if you look at the sample size of the 3 polls taken 09/01 - 09/03 (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html), the two showing a strong lead for Obama polled over 4 times as many people, so they have a much smaller margin of error.

I don't know why CBS would report a poll like that when they had already seen that polls with larger samples said the exact opposite. Polling 734 people for a country of 300,000,000 seems like a bad joke.

[the4thpip]

Once I got past the hysterical laughter imaging her meeting with an Angela Merkel or a Nicolas Sarkozy discussing world affairs and their bewilderment, I decided to really research some of the things she did as Mayor and Governor. I'm not interested in the salacious news of the day. It's the simple things that I look for. My granny used to say stop watching what people say and look at what they do to really see the measure of a person.

That lead me to this little tid-bit. As Mayor, I discovered that she fought to have certain books banned from the Public library. When I ran across a list of books that Palin wanted banned, I was left speechless:

• Canterbury Tales by Chaucer
• Death of a Salesman by Arthur Miller
• Flowers For Algernon by Daniel Keyes
• Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain
• I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings by Maya Angelou
• James and the Giant Peach by Roald Dahl
• Lord of the Flies by William Golding
• My Friend Flicka by Mary O’Hara
• Of Mice and Men by John Steinbeck
• The Catcher in the Rye by J.D. Salinger
• The Color Purple by Alice Walker
• The Grapes of Wrath by John Steinbeck
• The Merchant of Venice by William Shakespeare
• To Kill A Mockingbird by Harper Lee
• Twelfth Night by William Shakespeare
• Webster’s Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary by the Merriam-Webster
http://www.frontrowreviews.blogspot.com/

Who here agrees that kids should be kept away from dictionaries?

Paper cuts are dangerous!

[FalconX2000]

http://www.frontrowreviews.blogspot.com/

Who here agrees that kids should be kept away from dictionaries?

Paper cuts are dangerous!

That would be scary except cursory research indicates that the list is baloney. While I would be delighted at the political implications of her trying to ban J.K. Rowling, Roald Dahl and Shakespear, some of the books weren't even published at that point in time.

That she wanted to ban books at all should give her a bad bash and lots of scrutiny when competing for the highest office in America. I'm just saying that isn't the list.

[the4thpip]

That would be scary except cursory research indicates that the list is baloney. While I would be delighted at the political implications of her trying to ban J.K. Rowling, Roald Dahl and Shakespear, some of the books weren't even published at that point in time.

Dang. Should have seen that.

Turns out that this is from a list of all books that have ever been banned by conservatives in the US.

[the4thpip]

Palin's and McCain's extremely good speeches

So far, the reviews aren't good. CNN's Jeffrey Toobin calling this " the worst speech by a nominee that I’ve heard since Jimmy Carter in 1980" is one thing. But the harsh critique that former Bush speechwriter Michael Gerson delivered on MSNBC (which Barack Obama's campaign was quick to blast out to reporters) was something else entirely.

"Pretty disappointing," Gerson said. "I think that was a missed opportunity. Many Americans needed to hear from this speech something they have never heard from Republicans before. And in reality, a lot of the policy they’ve heard from Republicans before."
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/?source=refresh

Finally, former Republican White House official and uber-pundit David Gergen criticized McCain's "rerun" of "thin" policies. "I think the country is looking for fresh answers," he said. "It's hard to separate yourself out from President Bush when you essentially have the same economic policies as President Bush."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20080905/cm_thenation/15354955;_ylt=AnzI4LwWEeMGhQbA3LbuLCkEtbAF