2008 U.S. Presidential Election Mega thread

[KevinTBrown]

The Republican Party platform took aim yesterday at President George W. Bush and presidential nominee John McCain for supporting big-government bailouts.

http://news.yahoo.com/story//bloomberg/20080902/pl_bloomberg/amdtdog3_lby


Hmmm, now even the Republican Party is taking shots at McCain. I think McCain's new name needs to be John "Death Spiral" McCain.

[Corrina]

It's become clear to me that not only was Palin chosen because she was a women but because she made clear her commitment to anti-abortion because she had Trig.

That made the right-wing fundamentalists really happy. Yay! a woman who did what they wanted with her uterus. Plus, she's a babe!

So that's what it's come down to. She was picked because she had a special needs baby and chose not to abort. And because she was the anti-Hilary.

Oh, that's a fabulous reason to be vice-president. Great.

Nevermind that there's an on-going ethics investigation. Nevermind that she was a member of the Alaska Independence Party (and sent them a video message at a recent convention) even though McCain's new slogan is "Country First" not "Alaska First." Nevermind that her executive experience is of a state that doesn't even administer income tax and of a town with a budget smaller than the bookstore that I managed....

If this is the way McCain makes decisions, damn. And he's saying he's the SAFE choice?

Vetting process article:
http://www.adn.com/sarah-palin/story/513143.html

About the only good thing I can think to come out of this is that we're going to have a nice national dialogue about what choices parents of young children or special needs kids make.

[Stressfactor]

Yeah, I SERIOUSLY wonder about the Republican timing here. I mean, SUPPOSEDLY McCain knew about the daughter's preganancy BEFORE he made the announcement and SUPPOSEDLY Palin knew all about this well in advance so why she didn't make the announcement well beforehand makes NO sense.

Also, for all those conservatives who are happily dancing because the 17 year-old is going to have her baby and get married.... Yeah, good luck to them. It's a good thing Palin is relatively well-off because she's going to have to be helping to support those kids -- Alaska is a very expensive place to live and most of the jobs in non-city areas like Juno are pretty rough and dangerous.

It burns me up to see conservatives seeming to treat this like there are only two choices -- abortion or keeping the baby. There is a THIRD choice you morons -- putting the baby up for adoption. I think any woman who chooses to place her baby up for adoption should be cheered and celebrated. It is NOT an easy decision.

[the4thpip]

The usually very accurate rasmussenreports.com (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/daily_presidential_tracking_poll) detects a Palin bounce!

The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Tuesday shows Barack Obama attracting 48% of the vote while John McCain earns 43%. When "leaners" are included, it’s Obama 51%, McCain 45%. This is the highest level of support enjoyed by Obama at any point in Election 2008

for Obama! :tongue:

The CNN poll is turning into quite the outlier here (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html).

[KevinTBrown]

Hmmmm, is this the best thing for McCain's campaign to do? To lash out at the media?

http://news.yahoo.com/story//bloomberg/20080902/pl_bloomberg/as77ueg2jfbq


One thing I must admire, Obama's campaign has been very quiet and just allowing things to "go as they go" in terms of the media. They're quiet for the weekend, with the exception of the support for the people affected by Gustav, and Obama gets a bump in the polls that pushes him past the 50% mark.

That Palin pick is not looking so good right now.....

[Matt Doc Martin]

Yeah, I SERIOUSLY wonder about the Republican timing here. I mean, SUPPOSEDLY McCain knew about the daughter's preganancy BEFORE he made the announcement and SUPPOSEDLY Palin knew all about this well in advance so why she didn't make the announcement well beforehand makes NO sense.

Also, for all those conservatives who are happily dancing because the 17 year-old is going to have her baby and get married.... Yeah, good luck to them. It's a good thing Palin is relatively well-off because she's going to have to be helping to support those kids -- Alaska is a very expensive place to live and most of the jobs in non-city areas like Juno are pretty rough and dangerous.

It burns me up to see conservatives seeming to treat this like there are only two choices -- abortion or keeping the baby. There is a THIRD choice you morons -- putting the baby up for adoption. I think any woman who chooses to place her baby up for adoption should be cheered and celebrated. It is NOT an easy decision.

And a big HURRAY and NICE GOING to anyone who does choose to adopt. You are heroes.

[Alexx1]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/02/us/politics/02vetting.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin




Up until midweek last week, some 48 to 72 hours before Mr. McCain introduced Ms. Palin at a Friday rally in Dayton, Ohio, Mr. McCain was still holding out the hope that he could choose a good friend, Senator Joseph I. Lieberman, independent of Connecticut, a Republican close to the campaign said. Mr. McCain had also been interested in another favorite, former Gov. Tom Ridge of Pennsylvania.

But both men favor abortion rights, anathema to the Christian conservatives who make up a crucial base of the Republican Party. As word leaked out that Mr. McCain was seriously considering the men, the campaign was bombarded by outrage from influential conservatives who predicted an explosive floor fight at the convention and vowed rejection of Mr. Ridge or Mr. Lieberman by the delegates.

Perhaps more important, several Republicans said, Mr. McCain was getting advice that if he did not do something to shake up the race, his campaign would be stuck on a potentially losing trajectory.

So Palin wasn't even on McCain radar.

Corrina sounds like your assessement, about why she was choosing, is spot on to me!

It's pretty clear McCain and his people knew very little about Palin and a lot of information that we are learning about her, they are learning right along with us. This pick was out of sheer desperation and political panic and just goes to shore up how strong the Obama/Biden ticket really is.

I'm looking forward to the debates, especially the one on Oct 2!

[Infra-Man]

Here's some more about Palin via Time:

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837918,00.html

Including this nugget:
Stein says that as mayor, Palin continued to inject religious beliefs into her policy at times. "She asked the library how she could go about banning books," he says, because some voters thought they had inappropriate language in them. "The librarian was aghast." The librarian, Mary Ellen Baker, couldn't be reached for comment, but news reports from the time show that Palin had threatened to fire her for not giving "full support" to the mayor.

[FalconX2000]

Here's some more about Palin via Time:

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837918,00.html

Including this nugget:

Yikes.


http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837851,00.html

Seems like Obama and Biden are getting along fine.

[Major Comma]

so again every Palin story isautomatically TRUE?
I would need confirmation of that library story,it sounds very second hand to me

[KevinTBrown]

Yeah, I SERIOUSLY wonder about the Republican timing here. I mean, SUPPOSEDLY McCain knew about the daughter's preganancy BEFORE he made the announcement and SUPPOSEDLY Palin knew all about this well in advance so why she didn't make the announcement well beforehand makes NO sense.

Also, for all those conservatives who are happily dancing because the 17 year-old is going to have her baby and get married.... Yeah, good luck to them. It's a good thing Palin is relatively well-off because she's going to have to be helping to support those kids -- Alaska is a very expensive place to live and most of the jobs in non-city areas like Juno are pretty rough and dangerous.

It burns me up to see conservatives seeming to treat this like there are only two choices -- abortion or keeping the baby. There is a THIRD choice you morons -- putting the baby up for adoption. I think any woman who chooses to place her baby up for adoption should be cheered and celebrated. It is NOT an easy decision.

Maybe it's the "conspirist" in me, but for some reason I'm awaiting the news in, oh 2-4 weeks, about how Palin's daughter had a miscarriage.....

:redface:

[Alexx1]

Yikes.

Seems like Obama and Biden are getting along fine.

Yes it does and I enjoyed their brief interview with 60minutes this past weekend. It's nice to see two head-strong politicians showing genuine respect. They both can learn lots from the other.

Obama/Biden chemistry test:
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837851,00.html

[Buzz Dixon]

If I was a conspiracy buff, I might think the right wing fed the flames of the Trig-is-really-Bristol's-baby rumors to make the conservative-politico's-daughter-pregnant-out-of-wedlock angle seem normal. :tongue:

[Buzz Dixon]

A friend of min on the opposite side of the political fence sent me the following, and even I had to laugh...

'We, in Ireland, can't figure out why people are even bothering to hold an election in the United States this year.

On one side, you have a pants wearing woman lawyer, married to a lawyer who can't keep his pants on, who just lost a long and heated primary that they still haven't paid for yet, against a lawyer who states he is "black" when it is documented that he is only 12% "black", who goes to the wrong church, who has stated that he wants his countrymen to learn to speak Spanish rather than English, who refuses to put his hand over his heart and say the pledge of allegiance or wear the flag of the country he wants to run, who can't remember if there are 50 or 57 states in his own country, who is married to yet another lawyer who doesn't even like the country her husband wants to run.

Now...On the other side, yo u have a nice old war hero whose name starts with the appropriate 'Mc' terminology married to a good looking younger woman who owns a beer distributorship. What in Lord's name are ye lads thinking over there in the colonies??

[PatrickG]

so again every Palin story isautomatically TRUE?
I would need confirmation of that library story,it sounds very second hand to me

TIME magazine doesn't count? When TIME publishes hearsay, IMHO, that's generally more reliable than most news sources facts.

So it took less than a week for these to surface. And McCain picked somebody with no compelling reason for the American people to even have a positive association that counters this.

IMHO, McCain should have picked Lieberman against his party's wishes. The office of the president should be above being beholden to their own political party -- and all the data shows that this election, the evangelical right wing has shrunk so much that they can't and won't decide this race.

When Obama won, he started changing how his party operated before even securing the nomination.

I've noticed that the DNC generally doesn't mandate that candidates appeal to the base (Half of Obama's message at recent speeches seem to confuse older Dems) whereas the GOP seems to have a message that you have to adhere to if you're in management. Running the party doesn't give you the right to steer its policy.

[PatrickG]

Simply put:

It would be easier for a Democratic president to add Reaganomics and a pro-life addendum to the DNC platform than it would be for a Republican president to add expanding social security and pro-choice addendums to the GOP platform.

You could have the authority. You could have the votes. Amd somehow somebody would still say no.

[Charles RB]

AHAHAHHAHHAHAHA!

Palin!

Yeah, I admit I was quite surprised - "fuck me, McCain's as politically moronic as Novaya".

Because c'mon, it's a candidate appealing to angry Hilary voters who simply wish to vote for A Woman as an "up yours". And there aren't enough of them to swing shit. See: PUMA and their conferences nobody went to.

Plus, y'know, there's that whole ongoing corruption scandal thing.

No Attribution or Permission?

Aren't we supposed to lock him up now for being a Pirate under DMCA?

Yes. Oh yes.

[FalconX2000]

Yes it does and I enjoyed their brief interview with 60minutes this past weekend. It's nice to see two head-strong politicians showing genuine respect. They both can learn lots from the other.

Obama/Biden chemistry test:
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837851,00.html

Umm, why did you post the same link I did?

[Buzz Dixon]

Since Lord knows we don't have enough info on Palin...

http://www.washingtonindependent.com/3767/palin-involved-in-ousting-scandals-from-the-start

Some quotes found on Andrew Sullivan's Daily Dish blog:

Aides to Mr. McCain said they had a team on the ground in Alaska now to look more thoroughly into Ms. Palin’s background. A Republican with ties to the campaign said the team assigned to vet Ms. Palin in Alaska had not arrived there until Thursday, a day before Mr. McCain stunned the political world with his vice-presidential choice.

I don't think it's Troopergate, the curious pregnancy, the pregnant unwed daughter, the Alaskan separatists, or the bottomless ignorance that makes the difference. Palin is by any measure the worst vice presidential pick of the modern age (which considering Agnew, Quayle and Eagleton is quite a statement). The killer is McCain's decision-making process and what this tells us about it. The man is a risk-taker who makes snap decisions "from the gut." He liked Palin. She looked like a maverick and a bit like himself. He didn't invest the time or resources to look into her deeply.

How can a person like this be put at the helm in a time of skyrocketing international tensions?http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/09/its-about-mccai.html

Her experience is as mayor of a city with a population of about 5,000 (at the time), and less than 2 years as governor of a state with about 670,000 residents. During her mayoral administration most of the actual work of running this small city was turned over to an administrator. She had been pushed to hire this administrator by party power-brokers after she had gotten herself into some trouble over precipitous firings which had given rise to a recall campaign. Sarah campaigned in Wasilla as a “fiscal conservative”. During her 6 years as Mayor, she increased general government expenditures by over 33%. During those same 6 years the amount of taxes collected by the City increased by 38%.http://www.washingtonindependent.com/3671/the-reform-candidate

A lot of attention is being given to Gov. Palin's daughter's situation. The much bigger deal is the expanding trooper-gate investigation, the fact that Palin lied in her Friday speech about her purported opposition to the Bridge to Nowhere, her apparent former membership in the secessionist Alaska Independence Party, and more. Individually, you can come to your own judgment about how consequential these stories are. What they show pretty clearly now -- in addition to the news that the McCain campaign is only now sending in a vetting team -- is that John McCain didn't do any serious vetting of Palin before he invited her to join his ticket and, he hopes, become Vice President of the United States.

Fundamentally, of course, this is about John McCain. And the real issue here is what this slapdash decision says about his judgment.http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/212192.php

And finally...

Gallup Daily: Obama Hits 50% for First Time

http://www.gallup.com/poll/109960/Gallup-Daily-Obama-Hits-50-First-Time.aspx

[Infra-Man]

Originally Posted by The Daily Dish
Aides to Mr. McCain said they had a team on the ground in Alaska now to look more thoroughly into Ms. Palin’s background. A Republican with ties to the campaign said the team assigned to vet Ms. Palin in Alaska had not arrived there until Thursday, a day before Mr. McCain stunned the political world with his vice-presidential choice.

Okay, so the vetting committee was REALLY headed by these two:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/87/ActionComicsCvr785.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Monkey-typing.jpg

Vetting Time for Bonzarro

[Corrina]

Yeah, at the very least, someone should have been digging through the minutes of her town meetings. I wonder what else is there in black and white?

The town had an administrator? That means the administrator did all the work, at the direction of the mayor. Not that the mayor's job was nothing but it does mean she did not get involved in day to day activities. I've covered towns like this. The job of mayor is part-time, usually, and is pretty uncomplicated.

[Matt Doc Martin]

Yeah, at the very least, someone should have been digging through the minutes of her town meetings. I wonder what else is there in black and white?

The town had an administrator? That means the administrator did all the work, at the direction of the mayor. Not that the mayor's job was nothing but it does mean she did not get involved in day to day activities. I've covered towns like this. The job of mayor is part-time, usually, and is pretty uncomplicated.

Hey...sometimes you have to look pretty for the cameras with your giant, shiny pair of scissors while you cut the ribbon to open the new IHOP.

No hard working administrator is qualified for that!

[KevinTBrown]

Hey...sometimes you have to look pretty for the cameras with your giant, shiny pair of scissors while you cut the ribbon to open the new IHOP.

No hard working administrator is qualified for that!

But when you come in second in the Miss Alaska pageant.....

Well, there ya go!

:biggrin:

[Royal]

soooo....were we supposed to know Cruise was that guy or....not?

[Buzz Dixon]

Dog pile on the rabbit!
Dog pile on the rabbit!

Republicans Rush In

By Richard Cohen
Tuesday, September 2, 2008; A15

One of the great sights of American political life -- a YouTube moment if ever there was one -- was to see the doughboy face of Newt Gingrich as he extolled the virtues of Sarah Palin, a sitcom of a vice presidential choice and a disaster movie if she moves up to the presidency: "She's the first journalist ever to be nominated, I think, for the president or vice president, and she was a sportscaster on local television," Gingrich said on the "Today" show. "So she has a lot of interesting background. And she has a lot of experience. Remember that, when people worry about how inexperienced she is, for two years she's been in charge of the Alaska National Guard."

It's a pity Gingrich was not around when the Roman Emperor Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, better known by his nickname Caligula, reputedly named Incitatus as a consul and a priest. Incitatus was his horse.

John McCain's selection of Palin, which I first viewed with horror, could now be seen in a different light. Based on various television interviews over the Labor Day weekend -- and a careful reading of the transcripts -- it is possible that this is McCain's attempt to make fools of his fellow Republicans. He has succeeded beyond all expectations.

Gingrich's point about Palin being commander in chief of the Alaska National Guard has been echoed throughout the GOP. In fact, even Cindy McCain pointed out -- rightly enough -- that Alaska is across the Bering Strait from Russia and so Palin, by deduction, has been on the front lines of the Cold War . . . had it not ended in 1989.

Still, you have to admit that in all that time, especially since Palin became governor about two years ago, no Russian invasion force has come across the strait, maybe because she was in charge of the Guard, maybe because she herself is a hunter and an athlete. The record is unclear because no high-ranking Russian appeared on any of the weekend talk shows to say how they had considered an invasion of Alaska and then backed off when Sarah Palin became commander in chief of the Alaska National Guard. Who could blame them?

Just to show that he would not ask of others what he would not do himself, McCain came before Chris Wallace to sing Palin's praises. He said that he had "watched her record . . . for many, many years" which is, a prudent man might say, more years than she's had a record. McCain, as a fellow military man, did not mention Palin's tenure as the supreme commander of the entire Alaska National Guard, maybe because he thought it speaks for itself. If that's the case, he's right.

Probably the most depressing thing about Palin is not her selection but the defense of it. It has produced a parade of GOP spokesmen intent on spiking the needle on a polygraph. Looking right into the camera, they offer statement after statement that they hope the voters will swallow but that history will forget. The sum effect on the diligent news consumer is a feeling of consummate contempt for the intelligence of the American people -- a contempt that will be justified should Palin be the factor that makes McCain a winner in November.

One of the more heroic efforts at Palin worship came from the commentator-columnist William Kristol, the former chief of staff for Vice President Dan Quayle. He had to use the code word "traditional" three times in a single sentence to make his point: "It's a pretty amazing story of personal success, being at once a traditional woman who broke all of these traditional barriers, kind of the best of both worlds, if you believe in traditional values."

About the only Republican who seemed totally sincere about Palin was Grover G. Norquist, an anti-tax obsessive who once likened the argument that the estate tax affected only a very few people to the argument -- made by no one I can think of -- that the Holocaust also affected a relatively few people. "I mean, that's the morality of the Holocaust," he said only five years ago. Norquist called the selection of the anti-tax Palin a "wise" choice.

In 1959, the novelist Terry Southern published "The Magic Christian," a darkly comic tale based on the premise that people will do anything for money. The choice of Palin proves that people will also do anything for political power -- including rising early on a holiday weekend to make fools of themselves.

cohenr@washpost.comhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/01/AR2008090101715_pf.html

[Stressfactor]

There's also a bit of McCain talking out of both sides of his mouth here -- He's said in speeches that he's pro offshore oil drilling but he thinks the Alaskan National Wildlife Preserve should be kept pristine... and yet he picks a running mate who is PRO drilling in the Wildlife Preserve!

Also, I still think people should not delude themselves about McCain's age. Yes, he APPEARS to be in good health but I just spent the weekend with my 77 year-old mother who was complaining about the numbers of funerals and "bad news" she's dealt with recently. Friends who are (in most cases) younger than her who were in "good health" and yet have dropped dead from strokes, or had sudden terminal cancer diagnoses, or been diagnosed with the onset of alzheimer's...

McCain really may not make it through one term in one piece and Palin would then be in charge...

[Matt Doc Martin]

Dog pile on the rabbit!
Dog pile on the rabbit!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/01/AR2008090101715_pf.htm

That, sir, was brilliant.

[Stressfactor]

Something else that kind of burns me is all of these supposed "Republican Women" who are now saying that the fact Palin's daughter is pregnant and unmarried at 17 "humanizes" Palin and makes her seem more like a "regular person"...

Well, jeeze louise -- my parents raised two daughters and neither one of us was pregnant at 17 or even 18! Out of all of gal pals none of them OR their sisters were pregnant at 17.

Yes, I know it is part of a national statistic and everything but there are a lot of women now who are making this sound like Palin taking out her own trash or something.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm sorry that the family has to deal with this and Palin's daughter will likely have a difficult road ahead of her -- but for some people to try to spin it as a *positive* thing just makes me mad. It's NOT positive -- it will be devestating. Once again, I'm NOT saying the girl should have gotten an abortion, but people are making it sound like this will be SO WONDERFUL -- Is this girl going to try to go on to college? What about her boyfriend/husband-to-be? Who will be taking care of the baby while the couple goes to school? Will they try to work and earn their own keep or will their families support them financially while they do all this? If so, well, nice work if you can get it -- most even middle-class families couldn't afford supporting a teenager in college AND a baby.

[Tetsuo_man]

Her "fiance" is a self proclaimed alaskan redneck...and he doesn't want kids...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1051519/Proud-f----redneck-The-teenager-expecting-baby-Sarah-Palins-17-year-old-daughter.html

[KevinTBrown]

Something else that kind of burns me is all of these supposed "Republican Women" who are now saying that the fact Palin's daughter is pregnant and unmarried at 17 "humanizes" Palin and makes her seem more like a "regular person"...

Well, jeeze louise -- my parents raised two daughters and neither one of us was pregnant at 17 or even 18! Out of all of gal pals none of them OR their sisters were pregnant at 17.

Yes, I know it is part of a national statistic and everything but there are a lot of women now who are making this sound like Palin taking out her own trash or something.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm sorry that the family has to deal with this and Palin's daughter will likely have a difficult road ahead of her -- but for some people to try to spin it as a *positive* thing just makes me mad. It's NOT positive -- it will be devestating. Once again, I'm NOT saying the girl should have gotten an abortion, but people are making it sound like this will be SO WONDERFUL -- Is this girl going to try to go on to college? What about her boyfriend/husband-to-be? Who will be taking care of the baby while the couple goes to school? Will they try to work and earn their own keep or will their families support them financially while they do all this? If so, well, nice work if you can get it -- most even middle-class families couldn't afford supporting a teenager in college AND a baby.

Hmmmmmmmmm, where were those women when Jamie Lynn Spears was pregnant...?


Oh yeah. Silly me. They were ripping the family for "allowing" their teenage daughter to get pregnant! :rolleyes:


Hypocrisy, thy name is Republican.

[the4thpip]

So, what's a single Republican to do in St. Paul with so many events canceled if he feels it would be in bad taste to attend the NRA's Hooker and Blow (http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Brian_Ross_Republicans_lobbyists_partied_as_0902.h tml) party?

Why, try to hookup for gay sex on craigslist of course!!

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/cas/819356873.html
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/m4m/822822765.html
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/m4m/822229935.html

[LtMarvel]

Before we go on, I'd like to see the age of the father of "Juno" baby. If he's roughly her age, then its no big deal. If he's in the mid 20s or older, than it's a huge deal that says something about her parenting.

[KevinTBrown]

Her "fiance" is a self proclaimed alaskan redneck...and he doesn't want kids...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1051519/Proud-f----redneck-The-teenager-expecting-baby-Sarah-Palins-17-year-old-daughter.html

Even though it's been disproved that it's her child, why is it that every single recent picture shows Bristol holding Trig and not her father???

[Buzz Dixon]

Gallup Daily: Obama Hits 50% for First Time

http://www.gallup.com/poll/109960/Gallup-Daily-Obama-Hits-50-First-Time.aspx

Rasmussen now has Obama at 51 percent.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/daily_presidential_tracking_poll

[KevinTBrown]

Rasmussen now has Obama at 51 percent.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/daily_presidential_tracking_poll

NOTE: When "leaners" are included.

I just want to see him hit the 53% mark without any of the leaners.

[Paul McEnery]

NOTE: When "leaners" are included.

I just want to see him hit the 53% mark without any of the leaners.

Interesting to see that CNN gave McCain a six point bump for the announcement of Palin.

Which promptly evaporated.

Over the weekend, the number of people who rated her positively for assuming the Presidency fell from 45% to 39%, a remarkably similar fall.

Bearing in mind that 30% of the country is crazy, that's not too many sane people on board with the decision.

[Tetsuo_man]

Was Palin an iron fisted mayor?
http://www.washingtonindependent.com/3767/palin-involved-in-ousting-scandals-from-the-start
And what did she mean she knew in her heart that the police chief wasn't with her?

[KevinTBrown]

Interesting to see that CNN gave McCain a six point bump for the announcement of Palin.

Which promptly evaporated.

Over the weekend, the number of people who rated her positively for assuming the Presidency fell from 45% to 39%, a remarkably similar fall.

Bearing in mind that 30% of the country is crazy, that's not too many sane people on board with the decision.

RCP average has it this way:

Obama with 49.2%
McCain with 42.8%

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html

[Paul McEnery]

Was Palin an iron fisted mayor?
http://www.washingtonindependent.com/3767/palin-involved-in-ousting-scandals-from-the-start
And what did she mean she knew in her heart that the police chief wasn't with her?

Rather more important is the librarian story. Leaning on the library to ban books for inappropriate language? Lovely.

http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,1837918,00.html

[Paul McEnery]

RCP average has it this way:

Obama with 49.2%
McCain with 42.8%

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html

Yup. That's where I got the CNN from, which was right after the Palin announcement. I'm assuming they're on the money, so that was a very ephemeral six point blip.

[the4thpip]

Yup. That's where I got the CNN from, which was right after the Palin announcement. I'm assuming they're on the money, so that was a very ephemeral six point blip.

Nah, they must have had some kind of polling error. Note that their poll was one on the same 3 days as some of the other polls on that list that show Obama up by 8-9 points.

[Paul McEnery]

Nah, they must have had some kind of polling error. Note that their poll was one on the same 3 days as some of the other polls on that list that show Obama up by 8-9 points.

Really? I could have sworn I looked it up, and they said it was just after the announcement. Then again, I have an ugly head cold, and could be stupid.

[Tetsuo_man]

Rather more important is the librarian story. Leaning on the library to ban books for inappropriate language? Lovely.

http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,1837918,00.html

I agree but I think I had seen a link earlier in the thread whereas I hadn't seen the whole "In my heart" stuff for the police chief.

[Paul McEnery]

I agree but I think I had seen a link earlier in the thread whereas I hadn't seen the whole "In my heart" stuff for the police chief.

Still, it's all the same argument to character. She's an irresponsible fundie megalomaniac.

Mind, I took one look at her pursed lips and said, ooh dear.

[Tetsuo_man]

True and the whole librarian thing did piss me off moreso because one of the main shaping reasons I am a Liberal is my strong support of freedom of speech (one of the reasons I wasn't sure if i'd vote for hillary if she won the dem nomination because of some things she's said about grand theft auto that just seemed more like she was taken the baton tipper gore left after she left the PMRC).

[Charles RB]

Something else that kind of burns me is all of these supposed "Republican Women" who are now saying that the fact Palin's daughter is pregnant and unmarried at 17 "humanizes" Palin and makes her seem more like a "regular person"...

Well, I personally am extremely interested in whether the 2IC of an entire country and potential leade would be like someone down the shops.

[AllisterH]

Rasmussen now has Obama at 51 percent.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/daily_presidential_tracking_poll

*BLINKS*

You're using Rasmussen (arguably the one polling website both Democrats and Republicans agree on) and NOT specifically the most important one?

Namely the Electoral College (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/election_2008_electoral_college_update)count.

SCREW THE POPULAR VOTE.

We're in serious trouble here people and I don't understand how Buzz is happy about this...

Obama at one point was leading 210 to McCain's 165 in Electoral College votes.

Its down to 193 versus 183 for Obama AND shrinking obviously.

Seriously what the hell are you guys so happy for here?

[the4thpip]

*BLINKS*

You're using Rasmussen (arguably the one polling website both Democrats and Republicans agree on) and NOT specifically the most important one?

Namely the Electoral College (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/election_2008_electoral_college_update)count.

SCREW THE POPULAR VOTE.

We're in serious trouble here people and I don't understand how Buzz is happy about this...

Obama at one point was leading 210 to McCain's 165 in Electoral College votes.

Its down to 193 versus 183 for Obama AND shrinking obviously.

Seriously what the hell are you guys so happy for here?

That balance of power calculator has not been updated since quite a while before the democratic convention. Seems the polling companies have been focused on national polls recently.
I expect the national shift to show in the electoral college calculation within the next days when new polls finally come in.

[Grazzt]

*BLINKS*

You're using Rasmussen (arguably the one polling website both Democrats and Republicans agree on) and NOT specifically the most important one?

Namely the Electoral College (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/election_2008_electoral_college_update)count.

SCREW THE POPULAR VOTE.

We're in serious trouble here people and I don't understand how Buzz is happy about this...

Obama at one point was leading 210 to McCain's 165 in Electoral College votes.

Its down to 193 versus 183 for Obama AND shrinking obviously.

Seriously what the hell are you guys so happy for here?

Pip is right. If you go into Rasmussen's archives (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/general_election_match_up_history), you'll see that on the date that comparison of electoral college votes was tallied, the popular vote was only 45/43 for Obama, 46/45 if leaners are counted. So unless all of the new votes for Obama come from safe states, he's probably in better shape now than he was then.

[Paul McEnery]

That balance of power calculator has not been updated since quite a while before the democratic convention. Seems the polling companies have been focused on national polls recently.
I expect the national shift to show in the electoral college calculation within the next days when new polls finally come in.

I'm curious about this. If the polls have remained static(ish), but the college votes have changed, then what we've got is populations reverting to type at the same rate, with the base of each state resolidifying.

[the4thpip]

McCain Manager: 'This Election is Not About Issues'

Rick Davis, campaign manager for John McCain's presidential bid, insisted that the presidential race will be decided more over personalities than issues during an interview with Post editors this morning.

"This election is not about issues," said Davis. "This election is about a composite view of what people take away from these candidates."

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2008/09/mccain_manager_this_election_i.html?hpid=topnews

[the4thpip]

Addictive:
http://sarahpalinisyournewsegway.com/

[Buzz Dixon]

Andrew Sullivan sums it all up:

If you want to read a deeper discussion that helps explain why the GOP is now in a public mental breakdown, I remain proud of my 2006 book, "The Conservative Soul," which was widely scorned and reviled by the right when it wasn't outright ignored. If you want to know why a once decent, honorable, if erratic figure like John McCain came to pick a total unknown with a Down Syndrome baby as his replacement as war-president, you have to understand the immense importance of the Christianist base. McCain isn't one of them, however much he tries to re-tell his life-story to make it so. They know it, he knows it, and he needed a religious running mate. He might have succeeded with Pawlenty, who is a solid pick that a mature and responsible campaign would have selected in a heartbeat.

Instead - partly out of insane cynicism (did he really believe Hillary's voters would switch over to vote for Palin?), partly out of a shallow liking for a shallow reading of Palin's record, and partly out of pure negligence - he picked Palin, barely knowing her. And so religious fundamentalism, as it always will, swamps the frontal cortex required for effective governance and gives us this reality show disgrace as serious politics. Has America really come to this?

Yes it has. The debate over whether the Republican party is now unfit for public office at a national level is now resolved. The longer, deeper explaination for this is in my book. One day, we will revive real conservatism. Right now, we have to ensure that this insane circus masquerading as a serious political party is defeated.http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/09/a-shameless-plu.html

[darkhanamaru]

I am going to throw the real politics back into the ring for it averages a lot of the major polls and can be even more accurate than rasmussen at times

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/maps/obama_vs_mccain/

[Charles RB]

Rick Davis, campaign manager for John McCain's presidential bid, insisted that the presidential race will be decided more over personalities than issues during an interview with Post editors this morning.

a) That's depressing.

b) You're fucked then, McCain.

[Buzz Dixon]

The mackerel slapping continues...

How could anyone truly believe that Barack Obama's background and job history are inadequate experience for a president and simultaneously believe that Sarah Palin's background and job history are perfectly adequate? It's possible to believe one or the other. But both? Simply not possible. John McCain has been—what's the word?—lying.

More fun here:

http://www.slate.com/id/2199029/

[Briareos]

Here's the real reason the left hate Palin:

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MjExNmM3ZmJiNGJmMjYyZGMwODdlMTkwMWUwODJmNzc=

[Briareos]

The mackerel slapping continues...



More fun here:

http://www.slate.com/id/2199029/


No one is asking for Palin to be president. She is on the ticket as Vice President.


And her resume is leaps and bounds above Obama's

[Michael P]

No one is asking for Palin to be president. She is on the ticket as Vice President.

And what's the most important quality of a Vice President?

THE ABILITY TO ASSUME THE DUTIES OF THE PRESIDENT.

[Briareos]

And what's the most important quality of a Vice President?

THE ABILITY TO ASSUME THE DUTIES OF THE PRESIDENT.

Well I think she'd do allright. Could she use a bit more experience sure but she as hell wouldn't be as over his head as Obama.

[Tetsuo_man]

When you have a guy who might die before his first term then you want someone who could be president any minute. If McCain was a multiple time cancer survivor who is the oldest person to run for their first term this wouldn't be important but that's how it is.

[Charles RB]

And her resume is leaps and bounds above Obama's

Evidence, please?

[Paul McEnery]

Well I think she'd do allright. Could she use a bit more experience sure but she as hell wouldn't be as over his head as Obama.

Who's a boo-boo? Who's a boo-boo right wing nutcase? Yes you are, yes you are, yes you are! Who's a boo-boo-boo?

[kingdom2000]

Well I think she'd do allright. Could she use a bit more experience sure but she as hell wouldn't be as over his head as Obama.

And you base this on what exactly or just going for one of your pointless and random conclusions?

As for Palin's daugher, you just know every night she is saying "please god, don't have my mom win the election because I don't want to marry that boy. Please have her lose!"

[That JonoGuy]

I am seriously frightened for my country if McCain and Company win. It will only be downhill from there.

A few months back I might not have been so apprehensive about a McCain Presidency, but ever since it came down to just Obama on the Democratic side, McCain has shown his true colors. He cares not for his country. All he cares about it getting into the white house at any means possible.

It's good to know that McCain will only look out his his "kind" of Americans.

[Tetsuo_man]

Seems Palin cut out some funding for teen mothers.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/02/palin_slashed_funding_to_help.html

I think this is way more daming then whether or not she is for abstinence only education.

[Michael P]

Seems Palin cut out some funding for teen mothers.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/02/palin_slashed_funding_to_help.html

I think this is way more daming then whether or not she is for abstinence only education.

Oh, irony of ironies.

[ShaunN]

Dear Briareos,

I'm sorry, but I don't see how Sarah Palin's resume even begins to compare with Obama's. On what evidence/logic are you basing your assertion?

It seems pretty clear to me that the entire argument about Obama's lack of experience has always been a red herring. Obama has had no less experience than many past US presidents and has served in public office and various public capacities many times for many years. Moreover, on most of the major foreign policy issues of the day (perhaps all of them) he has shown far better judgment than John McCain. So, experience is still not a replacement for knowledge and judgment (I'd bet Obama knows the difference between Sunnis and Shi'a and which one of them controls Iran).

The Palin appointment has surely undermined these attacks on Obama's so-called "lack of experience".Yet, you seem to be arguing that Palin is clearly more experienced than Obama, thereby maintaining this course of attack. Again, on what can you base this kind of assertion?

Sincerely,

Shaun

[Stressfactor]

Seems Palin cut out some funding for teen mothers.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/02/palin_slashed_funding_to_help.html

I think this is way more daming then whether or not she is for abstinence only education.

You wanna know something else? Covenant House is supported by the Catholic church -- which means it is both religious AND anti-abortion/pro-life.

I actually, personally, knew the Nun who was in charge of Covenant House from the early 1980's until the late 1990's.

So Palin shot her own Religious Right/Pro-Life record in the foot with this one.

[Paul McEnery]

You wanna know something else? Covenant House is supported by the Catholic church -- which means it is both religious AND anti-abortion/pro-life.

I actually, personally, knew the Nun who was in charge of Covenant House from the early 1980's until the late 1990's.

So Palin shot her own Religious Right/Pro-Life record in the foot with this one.

It's what I said before.

She thinks it's real important that if you get pregnant, you have to just bloody well be pregnant, and serve you right.

But once the baby's born, to hell with the baby, and to hell with the teen mother too.

[Samurai]

Dear Briareos,

I'm sorry, but I don't see how Sarah Palin's resume even begins to compare with Obama's. On what evidence/logic are you basing your assertion?

It seems pretty clear to me that the entire argument about Obama's lack of experience has always been a red herring. Obama has had no less experience than many past US presidents and has served in public office and various public capacities many times for many years. Moreover, on most of the major foreign policy issues of the day (perhaps all of them) he has shown far better judgment than John McCain. So, experience is still not a replacement for knowledge and judgment (I'd bet Obama knows the difference between Sunnis and Shi'a and which one of them controls Iran).

The Palin appointment has surely undermined these attacks on Obama's so-called "lack of experience".Yet, you seem to be arguing that Palin is clearly more experienced than Obama, thereby maintaining this course of attack. Again, on what can you base this kind of assertion?

Sincerely,

Shaun

Here, read this: http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/2008/08/30/sarah-palin-vs-barack-obama/

Obama has only 143 days of experience in the Senate, and he has now issued statements using the epitome of circular logic... that the experience of running his Presidential campaign is the reason he's experienced enough to be President. However, Obama doesn't actually run his campaign, he has managers for that. All he does is read the speeches handed to him and try to stumble through any instances where he can't use a teleprompter...

[Tetsuo_man]

You know he also helped pass legislation in Illinois...but I guess to you that doesn't count.

[Samurai]

You know he also helped pass legislation in Illinois...but I guess to you that doesn't count.

But that wasn't executive experience, he was just a junior state Senator. Being a mayor, even of a small town, involved more leadership and decision making than that. Governor Palin has at least as much, and IMO, far more (and more relevant) experience than Obama. That's why him claiming she's too inexperienced to be VP is so hilarious... he has even less experience, and he's running for President, not VP!

[Paul McEnery]

But that wasn't executive experience, he was just a junior state Senator. Being a mayor, even of a small town, involved more leadership and decision making than that. Governor Palin has at least as much, and IMO, far more (and more relevant) experience than Obama. That's why him claiming she's too inexperienced to be VP is so hilarious... he has even less experience, and he's running for President, not VP!

Go on about experience. Please.

[Samurai]

Go on about experience. Please.

Read the link, it's a chart, I can't paste it here for those too lazy to click....

[Buzz Dixon]

Well I think she'd do allright. Could she use a bit more experience sure but she as hell wouldn't be as over his head as Obama.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...Briareos, stop! Yer killin' me!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Corrina]

Shush. You know truth has a well-known liberal bias.

[Buzz Dixon]

Here, read this: http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/2008/08/30/sarah-palin-vs-barack-obama/

Obama has only 143 days of experience in the Senate, and he has now issued statements using the epitome of circular logic... that the experience of running his Presidential campaign is the reason he's experienced enough to be President. However, Obama doesn't actually run his campaign, he has managers for that. All he does is read the speeches handed to him and try to stumble through any instances where he can't use a teleprompter...It is well documented that Obama writes his own speeches.

[Tetsuo_man]

78 year old nun arrested outside of RNC.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/08/31/national/main4401941.shtml

[Sabrinaset]

Buzz, the next time you see a post by Briareos, just remember this. (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=7410429&postcount=1)

[Chris Hansbrough]

Shush. You know truth has a well-known liberal bias.

bah but when you bring things like that into a situation then blind sheep might eventually see it.....as long as it's not in brail....jesus why do people expect to come into this country and not read english....it doesn't matter if you're blind......

[Paul McEnery]

78 year old nun arrested outside of RNC.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/08/31/national/main4401941.shtml

She might have had a rocket launcher hidden under her wimple!

[Michael P]

78 year old nun arrested outside of RNC.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/08/31/national/main4401941.shtml

It's like they're trying for the worst possible photo ops.

And now we see, of course, that the reason so many protesters are being arrested is that they're refusing to stay within the designated "free speech zones." You know, the little strips of asphalt well away from the convention center, where the TV news people don't go.

[Buzz Dixon]

But that wasn't executive experience, he was just a junior state Senator. Being a mayor, even of a small town, involved more leadership and decision making than that. Governor Palin has at least as much, and IMO, far more (and more relevant) experience than Obama. That's why him claiming she's too inexperienced to be VP is so hilarious... he has even less experience, and he's running for President, not VP!Found on Andrew Sullivan's blog:
Her experience is as mayor of a city with a population of about 5,000 (at the time), and less than 2 years as governor of a state with about 670,000 residents. During her mayoral administration most of the actual work of running this small city was turned over to an administrator. She had been pushed to hire this administrator by party power-brokers after she had gotten herself into some trouble over precipitous firings which had given rise to a recall campaign. Sarah campaigned in Wasilla as a “fiscal conservative”. During her 6 years as Mayor, she increased general government expenditures by over 33%. During those same 6 years the amount of taxes collected by the City increased by 38%.http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/09/an-wasillan-on.html

BTW, remember Little Rock, Arkansas had a population of 670,000 when Bill Clinton was elected President. The state had a total population of 2.8 million and Republicans chided him for just being the governor of a small state.

[Michael P]

Found on Andrew Sullivan's blog:
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/09/an-wasillan-on.html

Ah, so she's one of those tax-and-spend... Republicans? Waitaminnit!

[Chris Hansbrough]

It's like they're trying for the worst possible photo ops.

bah, keep those heathen cloak wearin hippies away from our convention. Only men are allowed to love jesus....women in religious roles is just inslulting to the lord. who is a man....

[Tetsuo_man]

Sarah...Pawlenty...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMkchLnAdEM

[kingdom2000]

For someone so qualified, why is the GOP machine pushing this nonsense "Commander in Chief of the Alaskan National Guard" crap? Why exaggerate a title and "experience" of the title if her qualifications speak for themselves?
------------
Maj. Gen. Craig Campbell, adjutant general of the Alaska National Guard, considers Palin “extremely responsive and smart” and says she is in charge when it comes to in-state services, such as emergencies and natural disasters where the National Guard is the first responder.

But, in an interview with The Associated Press on Sunday, he said he and Palin play no role in national defense activities, even when they involve the Alaska National Guard. The entire operation is under federal control, and the governor is not briefed on situations.
------------

Then after making a to do, making shit up about how being "close" to Russia is some proof of experience along with the above title, we have a rep that does out to ponificate about it. However, in something journalists almost never do, when pushed to actually get an answer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYYiw_y2qDI) to a simple question "Can you just tell me one decision that she made as commander and chief of the Alaskan National Guard, just one?" they can not provide an answer.

McCain, upset because a reporter dared to try to get an answer to a legit question, refused (http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/09/02/watb-mccain-cancels-larry-king-appearance/http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/09/02/watb-mccain-cancels-larry-king-appearance/) to go on Larry King Live as punishment for the "horrible" transgression. Is this what we want in a president? A guy that will do a "I am taking my toys and going home" pout when forced to answer tough questions?

As for Bri and Sam, since Palin's military and leadership experience is the thing of envy by all, answer the question "Can you just tell me one decision that she made as commander and chief of the Alaskan National Guard?"

[Michael P]

Is this what we want in a president? A guy that will do a "I am taking my toys and going home" pout when forced to answer tough questions?

This is what we have in a President. The question is whether or not we want more of it.

[kingdom2000]

As a sign that there is absolutely NOTHING that McCain is not willing to do to win (which is a sign of his overall lack of morals, supposedly important to conservatives):

Jake Tapper: (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/mccain-hires-go.html) McCain Hires GOP Operative Who Helped Smear Him in South Carolina in 2000

Former officials of Sen. John McCain’s 2000 campaign expressed shock and disbelief Monday to learn than the GOP presidential nominee had hired South Carolina political consultant Tucker Eskew.

Eskew, along with Warren Tompkins and Neal Rhodes, were key members of then-Gov. George W. Bush’s South Carolina team during the 2000 primaries. McCain and his team long held Bush, Tompkins, Rhodes and Eskew responsible for the various smears against McCain and his family in the Palmetto state during that contentious contest. […]

Asked if the McCain campaign would have a comment about hiring one of the South Carolina strategists the senator and his 2000 campaign team once held responsible for smears against him, McCain 2008 spokesman Brian Rogers emailed, “No.”
-----------------

So basically McCain hired the guy that absolutely destroyed him, humilated him, lied about him and generally treated him like shit....to help in his campaign. Most people wouldn't, and shouldn't forgive treatment like that. McCain's response "Do onto others as was done unto me!!" At this point I don't think there is a low point that McCain isn't willing to reach for a victory.

[Paul McEnery]

You know what's really sad?

All this time, McCain's been complaining about getting no media time. Of course, that's because he's not the story. First Black President! That's the story.

And now he's finally getting some press time for his stupid convention, and first thing is, Gustav gets more media time than he does. And he finally does something to get press attention, and now Palin's the story! At his own nomination party!

Poor guy. He must be getting a plex.

[Michael P]

As a sign that there is absolutely NOTHING that McCain is not willing to do to win (which is a sign of his overall lack of morals, supposedly important to conservatives):

Untrue. There is one thing McCain is so far unwilling to do to win: Tell the American people he will end an unpopular war and fix the economy.

[Charles RB]

Seems Palin cut out some funding for teen mothers.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/02/palin_slashed_funding_to_help.html


Well. Not every teen mother. I can think of one who'll be fine...

[suttercain]

I find it offensive that she encourages her daughter to marry at age 17. She is 17! In two years she won't even be able to stand the "redneck" of a husband. Wacky ass religious conservatives.

Although I do find her "abstinence only (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Sarah_Palin#Sex_education)" education policy to be pretty funny.

[Tetsuo_man]

I find it offensive that she encourages her daughter to marry at age 17. She is 17! In two years she won't even be able to stand the "redneck" of a husband. Wacky ass religious conservatives.

Although I do find her "abstinence only (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Sarah_Palin#Sex_education)" education policy to be pretty funny.

I find it more sad then funny since the way she puts it sounds like she equates comprehensive sex education with hardcore pornography.

[Buzz Dixon]

I find it offensive that she encourages her daughter to marry at age 17. She is 17! In two years she won't even be able to stand the "redneck" of a husband.While the odds are high against teen marriages, they can be successful. I was married at 19 and am still married to the same wonderful lady 35 years later.

[Paul McEnery]

I find it more sad then funny since the way she puts it sounds like she equates comprehensive sex education with hardcore pornography.

Now that's change I can believe in!

[Corrina]

While the odds are high against teen marriages, they can be successful. I was married at 19 and am still married to the same wonderful lady 35 years later.

It worked for Palin too, since she marriage her teenage sweetheart and her first son came along eight months later.

[Michael P]

I find it more sad then funny since the way she puts it sounds like she equates comprehensive sex education with hardcore pornography.

Well, I'd wager more porn stars know where the clitoris is than kids who have been through sex ed.

[Tetsuo_man]

Well, I'd wager more porn stars know where the clitoris is than kids who have been through sex ed.

I am so tempted to make a refrence to the south park movie.

[Corrina]

On Palin's 'experience' in foreign policy as commander of the Alaska National Guard:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/madeleine-m-kunin/sarah-palin-is-no-command_b_123358.html

Madeline Kunin! I'd forgotten about her. She was an excellent governor for Vermont.

[KevinTBrown]

I find it offensive that she encourages her daughter to marry at age 17. She is 17! In two years she won't even be able to stand the "redneck" of a husband. Wacky ass religious conservatives.

Although I do find her "abstinence only (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Sarah_Palin#Sex_education)" education policy to be pretty funny.

IF McCain somehow wins the election (if he does, then I will be citing conspiracies!), do you think Palin's new son-in-law is going to screw that up?? Fuck no way. He'll be on easy street........

[Paul McEnery]

IF McCain somehow wins the election (if he does, then I will be citing conspiracies!), do you think Palin's new son-in-law is going to screw that up?? Fuck no way. He'll be on easy street........

And foresight's his long suit, is it?

[Chris Hansbrough]

And foresight's his long suit, is it?

no that's his dick. the foresight is just a little extra...

[Michael P]

I thought they snipped his foresight off at his christening.

[Paul McEnery]

I thought they snipped his foresight off at his christening.

Aw man, just think about it. Your aim in life is to get drunk with your bro's and bone the occasional hot chick.

And the next day, the whole country is laughing at your redneck ass.

And dick.

[Royal]

If everyone lives on the sun rise side of the mountain, I'm moving to the Sun Set side.

It's much more cooler on the rocky terrain and I enjoy pissing people off.

[Paul McEnery]

If everyone lives on the sun rise side of the mountain, I'm moving to the Sun Set side.

It's much more cooler on the rocky terrain and I enjoy pissing people off.

What kind of an idiot would live on the sun rise side anyway? Wake you up in the morning, make you cranky all day.

[Nick Soapdish]

There's also a bit of McCain talking out of both sides of his mouth here -- He's said in speeches that he's pro offshore oil drilling but he thinks the Alaskan National Wildlife Preserve should be kept pristine... and yet he picks a running mate who is PRO drilling in the Wildlife Preserve!


I don't see a problem with that at all.

Having a different opinion than his veep, I mean. I'm against drilling in either. You don't want a runningmate that's just going to be a yes-man. Disagreement and discussion about differing opinions is good. Otherwise, you just get an echo chamber and an administration that can easily make stupid mistakes.

[Nick Soapdish]

What kind of an idiot would live on the sun rise side anyway? Wake you up in the morning, make you cranky all day.

You sound like you know from experience.

[suttercain]

While the odds are high against teen marriages, they can be successful. I was married at 19 and am still married to the same wonderful lady 35 years later.

Did you get married for love, bun in the oven or both?

Also, I hate to say it, but very different times. 1973 != 2008.

[suttercain]

IF McCain somehow wins the election (if he does, then I will be citing conspiracies!), do you think Palin's new son-in-law is going to screw that up?? Fuck no way. He'll be on easy street........

Tell that to K-Fed....

http://www.crimerant.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/kfed.jpg

[Paul McEnery]

IF Palin's new son-in-law ..

Come to think, his new name is Baked Alaska.

[Tetsuo_man]

Fruedian Slip from McCain campaign.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F02GEenQhQI

[Infra-Man]

Freudian slip of the day:

"Governor Failin"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpXcQjNMG1M


EDIT:
Dang, Tetsuo was a hair quicker on the draw. Nice shootin', hombre.

[Tetsuo_man]

Still good to see another version up so no one can say it's a hoax or something.

[Infra-Man]

Indeed. This classic Freudian slip deserves one of these:
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/3402/bwahahapd0.jpg

[Buzz Dixon]

Did you get married for love, bun in the oven or both?Love.

And an endless supply of kimchi.

[KevinTBrown]

Ah, Fred Thompson.... as a politician, you're a great actor!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080903/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_thompson

Quotable: Thompson managed to slip in some of the more colorful aspects of McCain's biography — the high number of demerits he received at the Naval Academy and the fact he dated an exotic dancer nicknamed the Flame of Florida when he was in flight school.

There ya go. THE reason to vote for McCain. He dated an exotic dancer. I'm sold.

:tongue:





By the way, should we all create a new drinking game? Every time McCain's time spent as a POW is mentioned by anyone in any speech, we take a drink. I think we'll be in a drunken stupor by, oh, 2 am tonight.

[section 8]

hmm.
Good point, on the flipside we could do the same for each time Obama says "Change" or "Hope"

[DavidAllred]

hmm.
Good point, on the flipside we could do the same for each time Obama says "Change" or "Hope"

"Hype" you can believe in!

[KevinTBrown]

hmm.
Good point, on the flipside we could do the same for each time Obama says "Change" or "Hope"

Funny you bring that up.

In his 44-minute acceptance speech, he said "change" 11 times and "hope" 3 times. ("Hopes" once.).

So what's that about Obama being "just about change"? :rolleyes:

[KevinTBrown]

Tom Knowles has a detailed, 63-page research document cataloguing Palin's strengths and weaknesses: http://dyn.politico.com/members/forums/thread.cfm?catid=1&subcatid=2&threadid=1299417

Quotable: Palin’s Management Style is to Bully and Demand Political Loyalty. Palin’s tenure as mayor of Wasilla was marred by tremendous staff turnover, first when she fired most of the top staff — including the city’s librarian — because she questioned their loyalty, and then later when staff quit because of her micromanaging style. Wasilla even lost the opportunity to hire a police chief because he said the job seemed too political.

Looks like 2 hotheads on the Republican ticket.

[Buzz Dixon]

I think we'll be in a drunken stupor by, oh, 2 am tonight.Whaddya mean "by" 2 a.m.?

[section 8]

Kevin, with all due respect, the fact that 11 times in 44 minutes doesn't seem exessive to you...scares the living shit out of me!

[Sabrinaset]

You know, I was watching W's promo for McCain on TV a couple hours ago, and he kept pausing at the wierdest times during his speech ... it was quite bizarre. I'm guessing we were supposed to see it on the big screen with everyone on the convention applauding during the pauses, but without that, it looked very, VERY strange.

[Tetsuo_man]

Probabbly a time delay and he was trying to pause during appaulse or he was distract or...I could make a drug joke but I won't...well sorta...

[Chris Hansbrough]

Whaddya mean "by" 2 a.m.?

we have to be up by 3 to answer the phone

[Buzz Dixon]

Kevin, with all due respect, the fact that [Obama said "change"] 11 times in 44 minutes doesn't seem exessive to you...scares the living shit out of me!Only if you fear it.

[section 8]

repetition is hardly change...

(actions speak louder than words children)

[Infra-Man]

With VP picks, my friends and I have come to look at them in terms of post-high school plans:

Obama: Picks a safety school, which keeps the folks off his back

McCain: Puts all of his graduation money on Hard-Boiled Eggs in the fourth race

[section 8]

wait wait.. that last post was uncharacteristically serious of me, let me try again...Only if you fear (Change).

That depends on how hard you throw it at me

[Buzz Dixon]

we have to be up by 3 to answer the phoneChris winz da Internetz 4 da day!

[Kyuubi]

You know, I was watching W's promo for McCain on TV a couple hours ago, and he kept pausing at the wierdest times during his speech ... it was quite bizarre. I'm guessing we were supposed to see it on the big screen with everyone on the convention applauding during the pauses, but without that, it looked very, VERY strange.




Someone in the crowd kept saying "Boobs!", and Bush kept looking around for them.



Turns out the guy was a protester calling everyone there boobs. He was severely beaten afterwards.

[Sabrinaset]

Geez, that "I have a dream" speech by King so sucked too.

I say to you today, my friends, so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day, down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of interposition and nullification; one day right there in Alabama, little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight, and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together.

Mere repetition of words, and no change at all ... children.

[LtMarvel]

I find it offensive that she encourages her daughter to marry at age 17. She is 17! In two years she won't even be able to stand the "redneck" of a husband. Wacky ass religious conservatives.

Although I do find her "abstinence only (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Sarah_Palin#Sex_education)" education policy to be pretty funny.
A person's personality changes the most the first three years you are out of high school. So yes, in 4 years, the young couple will find themselves married to different people. Of course, there is a chance that they will still be in love with new spouses....

[Infra-Man]

Geez, that "I have a dream" speech by King so sucked too.

Mere repetition of words, and no change at all ... children.

http://boingboing.net/images/294168009_b25decaddf.jpg

[section 8]

Nice try Blonde Doctor,

but that is only one speech.
As opposed to Obama who is so dependent on the one word that he sounds as if he's contantly trying to break a dollar.
(ever look at his poster? the word "Change" is Larger than Obama's name)

Rather than parrot the word "dream" every 3.5 seconds, Dr King took ACTIONS. to see his dream fulfilled. He and his folowers braved riot cops, german shepards, firehoses, the national guard, and an entire culture of bigotry, hatred violence, and systematic oppression.

Obama is no Martin Luther King.

[LtMarvel]

The yes/no should be diamond shape, tell them and Oh snap sound like output, so they should be parallelograms.

Get your flowcharts right, people!

[Sabrinaset]

I don't know what's wrong, Section.

I mean certainly, some might argue that in the political arena, someone like Obama is going to choose his words to represents ideas and ideals that play to what he believes in, and wants the country to believe in as well. Some might also argue that he will not be able TO implement his vision unless he explains his point of view using language intended to get his POV across. Certainly repetition has been used as an effective means of communication for thousands of years, and definitely used quite effectively in the Old Testament. And of course, some people might argue that you can't have change until you convince people that change is necessary through positive, charismatic speeches, especially when you need more votes than your opponent to do so. I'm sure some people would say that it's completely obvious to anyone that no one running for President makes a speech like that unless they plan to implement their vision, and that it goes without saying that the speech using good elements of expression of ideas, of which repetition is a part, is a REQUIREMENT in order to actually win elections and then change what you wish. Some people say that you have to make the winning speeches in order to win. That in elections, winning worlds lead inevitably to winning change.

No one is mad that you don't subscribe to such backwards-thinking philosophies.

[suttercain]

Love.

And an endless supply of kimchi.

:)

Getting married because you love someone is different than getting married because you didn't pack your jimmy with plastic wrap.

I had 3 friends get married because they dropped their loads in the vah-jay-jay and thought it was the 'right thing to do'. I now have three divorced friends who hate life.

5 months in it's too late, but my advice to any other young people out there who get knocked up... coat hanger. God invented abortions for certain scenarios like this.

[section 8]

And this is why I'd make a crappy politician, I prefer truth .

[kingdom2000]

Funny you bring that up.

In his 44-minute acceptance speech, he said "change" 11 times and "hope" 3 times. ("Hopes" once.).

So what's that about Obama being "just about change"? :rolleyes:

I am betting the McCain will surpass that number in mentioning his POW status in his speech.

[Nick Soapdish]

And this is why I'd make a crappy politician, I prefer truth .

They aren't mutually exclusive.

Going back to the previous example ...

Dr. King wasn't running for office, but he was certainly playing politics with his speeches. Do you think that he was being dishonest in those?

And y'know, campaigning for change is hardly a novel idea. McCain has been campaigning that he's the best person to fix America which presumably involves some sort of change. Kerry did it in '04. Dubya was doing the same when he ran against Gore. Dole's campaign is a complete void to me, but the Republicans campaigned on change in 1994. And Clinton did it in '92.

It wasn't the only issue. In fact, it's not really an issue in and of itself. It's just a vague summation of issues (and even that might be too generous). But the same is true of Obama's campaign. He has outlined issues, sometimes with great detail. However, they don't usually make as good of a soundbite as change.

[BnL]

Am I the only one who can't help thinking about the Futurama episode where Leela becomes the first female blernsball player (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/90/Futurama_ep48.jpg) when it comes to Palin?

[section 8]

They aren't mutually exclusive.

Going back to the previous example ...

Dr. King wasn't running for office, but he was certainly playing politics with his speeches. Do you think that he was being dishonest in those?

And y'know, campaigning for change is hardly a novel idea. McCain has been campaigning that he's the best person to fix America which presumably involves some sort of change. Kerry did it in '04. Dubya was doing the same when he ran against Gore. Dole's campaign is a complete void to me, but the Republicans campaigned on change in 1994. And Clinton did it in '92.

It wasn't the only issue. In fact, it's not really an issue in and of itself. It's just a vague summation of issues (and even that might be too generous). But the same is true of Obama's campaign. He has outlined issues, sometimes with great detail. However, they don't usually make as good of a soundbite as change.

Another comparison between MLK and Obama? Such esteem for this guy! is there a Youtube vid of the sun actually shining out of Obama's rectum that i should be aware of?

but willing or not you made my point for me, Nick.

Obama isn't the first politician to promise change, he just says it more loudly and often than any in recent history

as you mentioned..Dubya also promised change...and delivered (it just wasn't for the better)

[Buzz Dixon]

Change = the Republicans endorse torture and screwed up the economy, so do you want more of that?

[Major Comma]

I heard in 92 Clinton once used the word "Change" 137 times in one speech ,
Its no big deal .

[Nick Soapdish]

Another comparison between MLK and Obama? Such esteem for this guy! is there a Youtube vid of the sun actually shining out of Obama's rectum that i should be aware of?

but willing or not you made my point for me, Nick.

Obama isn't the first politician to promise change, he just says it more loudly and often than any in recent history

as you mentioned..Dubya also promised change...and delivered (it just wasn't for the better)

I wanted a reference that I was sure that you'd get. Since he'd been recently used ...

But I'm not sure what your point was. If it's just that Obama wants change and mentions it a lot, you could've never posted on the thread and we would've known that. (Funny Onion (http://www.theonion.com/content/news/black_guy_asks_nation_for_change) article on that from about 6 months ago.) I'm also aware that politicians promise change because I used to watch tv.

If it's something else, you may need to spell it out for me.

[section 8]

No Buzz, Despite an earlier conversation i have changed my mind on Torture.
And Obama is Clearly the lesser of the two evils, but it hardly makes him "Jesus JR"

as for McCain mentioning his time as a POW, it is true, he WAS a POW.
Doesn't mean he's going to ride it all the way to the white house, but look back at the thread, and see how kosher it was to bash mccain for mentioning it.

but once someone critiques Obamas over use of the word "Change" we got MLK quotes defending him.

Clearly it is ok for Obama to repeat the same rhetoric, but not McCain.

[LtMarvel]

You know, when Leno asks McCain the hot question How many houses do you own? and McCain's response is I was a P.O.W. ...

I think McCain has opened himself up to legitimate criticism/redicule.

[Infra-Man]

as for McCain mentioning his time as a POW, it is true, he WAS a POW.
Doesn't mean he's going to ride it all the way to the white house, but look back at the thread, and see how kosher it was to bash mccain for mentioning it.

but once someone critiques Obamas over use of the word "Change" we got MLK quotes defending him.

Clearly it is ok for Obama to repeat the same rhetoric, but not McCain.

The comparison is not analogous, actually. I make fun of John McCain for milking his POW status because he and his campaign uses it as an excuse for any and all of his gaffes, even when they have absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand (e.g., "The insinuation from the Obama campaign that John McCain, a former prisoner of war, cheated is outrageous").

And if you can't point out a person is using an emotionally charged and manipulative non sequitur for cheap personal or political gain, the terrorists have won.

[section 8]

they are running for president, that door has been open for some time.

But i find it interesting, a mirror is all it took.
Give Obama the same shit, for the same reason as others do McCain, and watch as instantly the wagons are circled around Obama, Yet McCain is still sick, and wrong for it.


Sad too, there are plenty of other reasons to ridicule McCain without resorting to Hypocrisy.

[Infra-Man]

I'm wondering: When is Sarah Palin going to do her first interview with the press since her nomination? I don't think she has yet, has she?

[section 8]

if you can't point out a person is using an emotionally charged and manipulative non sequitur for cheap personal or political gain, the terrorists have won.

Like riding in on a white horse promising to bring quick and easy change in one of the nations darkest hours, to win the most powerful office in the free world?

not only is that just as bad, it is less original.

[Infra-Man]

Like riding in on a white horse promising to bring quick and easy change in one of the nations darkest hours, to win the most powerful office in the free world?

not only is that just as bad, it is less original.

Cutting through your hyperbole, how is that a non sequitur?

That's lofty rhetoric, but that's not a non sequitur.

And when has Obama ever said "Change will be easy" in his speeches? Doesn't he remind people in his speeches that things will be difficult and people will have to work hard?

[section 8]

now if only he repeated that part eleven times in forty minutes i would have less of a hard time trusting him.

[kingdom2000]

Like riding in on a white horse promising to bring quick and easy change in one of the nations darkest hours, to win the most powerful office in the free world?

not only is that just as bad, it is less original.

Daily Show has been having all kinds of fun with Obama on that. My favorite is the "Obama: He Completes Us (http://ccinsider.comedycentral.com/cc_insider/2008/08/barack-obama-he.html)" video last week. I also liked todays where they showed a biblical like slide of Obama stopping the flood for New Orleans.

But back to POW, McCain jumped the shark on that one and opened the barn door with this exchange (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/26/leno-asks-mccain-how-many_n_121389.html):

Leno joked with the Republican nominee that, "for one million dollars, how many houses do you have?"

"Could I just mention to you Jay, that in a moment of seriousness, I spent five and a half years in a prison cell, I didn't have a house, I didn't have a kitchen table, I didn't have a table, I didn't have a chair..."


Call me crazy but when the #$#@ hit the fan, as it usually does at least one per term, I don't think "I was a POW for five years" will provide a viable answer.

[Nick Soapdish]

No Buzz, Despite an earlier conversation i have changed my mind on Torture.
And Obama is Clearly the lesser of the two evils, but it hardly makes him "Jesus JR"

as for McCain mentioning his time as a POW, it is true, he WAS a POW.
Doesn't mean he's going to ride it all the way to the white house, but look back at the thread, and see how kosher it was to bash mccain for mentioning it.

but once someone critiques Obamas over use of the word "Change" we got MLK quotes defending him.

Clearly it is ok for Obama to repeat the same rhetoric, but not McCain.

The point of repetition is to underscore your message.

The message that Obama is trying to underscore is that he wants to bring change to America.

The message that McCain is trying to underscore is that he was a POW.

One of those messages is pertinent to the job and what they will actually do on the job. The other is being used as a deflection. And that's why it's being mocked.

[Infra-Man]

now if only he repeated that part eleven times in forty minutes i would have less of a hard time trusting him.

So what you're saying, then, by inference, is that you miss the bigger-message-forest for the individual "change"-trees?

When politically branding oneself, surely it is much easier on the ears and on viewers to repeat one's slogan "That's change we can believe in" (even if you don't care for it) than to mangle it with the your preferred and logically nuanced variation "That's change--which, of course, will be difficult and require sacrifice and hard work--we can believe in."

[Nick Soapdish]

now if only he repeated that part eleven times in forty minutes i would have less of a hard time trusting him.

Then you should listen to one of his speeches sometime. He talks about how it will be hard almost every time that he brings it up or gives an example.

Well, maybe half. He does mention change an awful lot and a lot of those are quick references. But there were at least half a dozen references to the hard road that lies ahead in his acceptance speech.

[section 8]

So what you're saying, then, by inference, is that you miss the bigger-message-forest for the individual "change"-trees?

When politically branding oneself, surely it is much easier on the ears and on viewers to repeat one's slogan "That's change we can believe in" (even if you don't care for it) than to mangle it with the your preferred and logically nuanced variation "That's change--which, of course, will be difficult and require sacrifice and hard work--we can believe in."

Oh it isn't a matter of what he mentions but what he stresses.

it's misdirection,

If anyone is going to promise, promote, or endorse change ten times more often than they even think to mention that the change will be difficult, or will take serious work, then...

well let's just say if you are going to jack me off, at least blow in my ear a little.

[Infra-Man]

Oh it isn't a matter of what he mentions but what he stresses.

misdirection,

If anyone is going to promise, promote or endorse change ten times more often than they even think mention that the change will br difficult, or take serious work, then

well let's just say if you are going to jack me off, at least blow in my ear a little.

I'm sorry, I don't have my gibberish-to-English dictionary handy. What are you talking about?

EDIT:
Actually, just so you know, the "jack me off/blow in my ear" analogy doesn't really work in this situation if you're comparing it to the idea of "easy change" and "change is hard work". You're comparing being jerked off with the idea of easy change (both desirable) and blowing in one's ear to the idea of change as hard work (the former is desirable, the latter is not desirable).

[Nick Soapdish]

Oh it isn't a matter of what he mentions but what he stresses.

misdirection,

If anyone is going to promise, promote or endorse change ten times more often than they even think mention that the change will br difficult, or take serious work, then

well let's just say if you are going to jack me off, at least blow in my ear a little.

So I'm guessing that you were also opposed to Bill Clinton in '92, the Republicans in '94, Dubya in '00, Kerry in '04, McCain and all of the Democratic nominees in '08?

When they talked about change, they didn't emphasize how hard it was going to be. They just asked for it.

The difficulty may not be the emphasis of Obama's speeches, but it was what he closed on with his acceptance speech with the hopeful message that we can still do it, despite its difficulty.

Or you could listen to the entire speech. He mentions the word hard or harder only seven times (some of which are talking about how we're already working hard), but gives other references to things not being easy such as those closing remarks.


I believe that, as hard as it will be, the change we need is coming, because I've seen it, because I've lived it.
Because I've seen it in Illinois, when we provided health care to more children and moved more families from welfare to work.
I've seen it in Washington, where we worked across party lines to open up government and hold lobbyists more accountable, to give better care for our veterans, and keep nuclear weapons out of the hands of terrorists.
And I've seen it in this campaign, in the young people who voted for the first time and the young at heart, those who got involved again after a very long time; in the Republicans who never thought they'd pick up a Democratic ballot, but did.

I've seen it -- I've seen it in the workers who would rather cut their hours back a day, even though they can't afford it, than see their friends lose their jobs; in the soldiers who re-enlist after losing a limb; in the good neighbors who take a stranger in when a hurricane strikes and the floodwaters rise.
You know, this country of ours has more wealth than any nation, but that's not what makes us rich. We have the most powerful military on Earth, but that's not what makes us strong. Our universities and our culture are the envy of the world, but that's not what keeps the world coming to our shores.
Instead, it is that American spirit, that American promise, that pushes us forward even when the path is uncertain; that binds us together in spite of our differences; that makes us fix our eye not on what is seen, but what is unseen, that better place around the bend.
That promise is our greatest inheritance. It's a promise I make to my daughters when I tuck them in at night and a promise that you make to yours, a promise that has led immigrants to cross oceans and pioneers to travel west, a promise that led workers to picket lines and women to reach for the ballot.
And it is that promise that, 45 years ago today, brought Americans from every corner of this land to stand together on a Mall in Washington, before Lincoln's Memorial, and hear a young preacher from Georgia speak of his dream.

The men and women who gathered there could've heard many things. They could've heard words of anger and discord. They could've been told to succumb to the fear and frustrations of so many dreams deferred.
But what the people heard instead -- people of every creed and color, from every walk of life -- is that, in America, our destiny is inextricably linked, that together our dreams can be one.
"We cannot walk alone," the preacher cried. "And as we walk, we must make the pledge that we shall always march ahead. We cannot turn back."
America, we cannot turn back...

... not with so much work to be done; not with so many children to educate, and so many veterans to care for; not with an economy to fix, and cities to rebuild, and farms to save; not with so many families to protect and so many lives to mend.
America, we cannot turn back. We cannot walk alone.
At this moment, in this election, we must pledge once more to march into the future. Let us keep that promise, that American promise, and in the words of scripture hold firmly, without wavering, to the hope that we confess.
Thank you. God bless you. And God bless the United States of America.


Three specific references to it being hard, three more examples of people working hard to make a difference. All in the last minute or so of the speech. The word "change" was used once in that time, but obviously you can't be referring to how hard change is going to be without referencing change so the whole conclusion is also about change. He's just emphasizing that it'll be hard work.

[Infra-Man]

Or you could listen to the entire speech. He mentions the word hard or harder only seven times (some of which are talking about how we're already working hard), but gives other references to things not being easy such as those closing remarks.

So what you're saying is that Obama presents a premise (change), discusses the premise, and then at the end of his discussion he stresses a quality of the premise (that change will be hard and will require work)?

Pshaw.

[section 8]

So I'm guessing that you were also opposed to Bill Clinton in '92, the Republicans in '94, Dubya in '00, Kerry in '04, McCain and all of the Democratic nominees in '08?

When they talked about change, they didn't emphasize how hard it was going to be. They just asked for it.
.

Very true..however

Clinton Fucked us
Dubya Fucked us
Kerry (the poor dumb fuck) fucked himself which fucked us

The Dems until recently continued to fuck each other, wich was fucking up. and Would have fucked us if McCain were smarter.


So how many times do you plan on falling for the same trick?

[Buzz Dixon]

In summary:

If you want somebody to jack off in your ear
Just turn around and vote Republican this year.

[section 8]

i have an early morning, and cannot continue,

Nick, Buzz, Infra, Thanks for the input it has been educational, and also thanks for not turning the conversation into a petty argument. some strong points were made by you all in Obamas favor.

As i Said Obama appears to be the lesser of two evils, but i have a hard time trusting anyone who actually WANTS to be president right now.

[section 8]

no the republicans dont jack you off buzz, they just out right fuck you

(been that way since Regan)

[Infra-Man]

i have an early morning, and cannot continue,

Nick, Buzz, Infra, Thanks for the input it has been educational, and also thanks for not turning the conversation into a petty argument. some strong points were made by you all in Obamas favor.

As i Said Obama appears to be the lesser of two evils, but i have a hard time trusting anyone who actually WANTS to be president right now.

Whoever wins the election is getting a shitty hand, that's for sure, and usually the only people who can play it are liars and cheats. But maybe, just maybe, someone knows how to work the table right.

I don't play cards, so don't hurt me for bad lingo

[Buzz Dixon]

Serriously, tho, my first thought when I heard it was Palin was:

"Pyle, you have GOT to be
kidding me!"

[the4thpip]

But that wasn't executive experience, he was just a junior state Senator. Being a mayor, even of a small town, involved more leadership and decision making than that.

She had a city administrator to do that. She mostly sat there, looked pretty, and tried to get books banned from the library.

[the4thpip]

It's like they're trying for the worst possible photo ops.

And now we see, of course, that the reason so many protesters are being arrested is that they're refusing to stay within the designated "free speech zones." You know, the little strips of asphalt well away from the convention center, where the TV news people don't go.

If free speech zones™ were good enough for the founding fathers, they're good enough for those pedophile turrist sympathizers.

[the4thpip]

McCain, upset because a reporter dared to try to get an answer to a legit question, refused (http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/09/02/watb-mccain-cancels-larry-king-appearance/http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/09/02/watb-mccain-cancels-larry-king-appearance/) to go on Larry King Live as punishment for the "horrible" transgression.

Another horrible media move by McCain. Refuse to go on the one non-Fox show were he's not gonna be asked any tough questions.

[the4thpip]

It worked for Palin too, since she marriage her teenage sweetheart and her first son came along eight months later.

Was the child born prematurely, then?

[the4thpip]

Tom Knowles has a detailed, 63-page research document cataloguing Palin's strengths and weaknesses: http://dyn.politico.com/members/forums/thread.cfm?catid=1&subcatid=2&threadid=1299417

Quotable:

Looks like 2 hotheads on the Republican ticket.

This is almost as good as Katherine Harris.

[Corrina]

She had a city administrator to do that. She mostly sat there, looked pretty, and tried to get books banned from the library.

Worse.

She was forced to hire a city administrator because no one liked the way she was handling the job.

[the4thpip]

http://wonkette.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/rnctuesday9.jpg

Someone asked for photographic evidence of all the emptiness happening at this wiener of a convention, so here you are. The upper and club level seats in this side of the arena — each of which has a very clear view of the stage — are not even half-full. For some perspective: we took this photo around 8 p.m. local time. If we had shown up at 8 p.m. local time looking for a seat at the Democratic convention, there would have been no seats or oxygen remaining anywhere for three hours already. It would have been an insult to God to show up at 8 p.m.! Denver was so awful like that, the people and the what not.
http://www.wonkette.com/

Convention crowd is sparse

ST. PAUL, Minn. -- The first clue that the convention hall isn't quite full is the air conditioning: walking into the Xcel Energy Center is like walking into, well, an Alaskan winter.

As you may have noticed on TV, there are empty seats all over the arena. The section directly to the right of the stage is nearly completely devoid of people. The club-level seats are practically deserted. The upper deck has plenty of room. (The sky suites seem pretty crowded, at least from the lower bowl.)

Part of the problem with the Twin Cities as a convention site is that while the business takes place here in St. Paul, most of the hotels -- and nearly all the nightly parties after the sessions adjourn -- are in Minneapolis, about 30 minutes up the road. There may be quite a few Republicans staying in, watching the convention on TV (or not) and then heading out to socialize afterwards without bothering to drop in for the show. There are short lines at the security checkpoints, no crowds in the restrooms, clear paths through the concourse between speeches.

Compare that to Denver last week, where the fire marshall closed the Pepsi Center and Mile High Stadium nearly every night, and you get a sense of that enthusiasm gap the press is talking about.

On the other hand, the Republicans have about half as many delegates as the Democrats -- while only 2,380 people are casting votes here, that would only barely win a candidate a majority of the 4,126 delegates in Denver.

The real test may come Wednesday night, when vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin headlines a speakers' roster including Cindy McCain. If a crowd doesn't turn up then, you might see half-price hot dogs for sale by Thursday, when John McCain shows up to accept his party's nomination.
salon.com

[BnL]

Speaker at Palin's church: "Terrorist attacks in Israel are God's punishment to Jews who haven't converted to Christianity." (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13098.html)

...just two weeks ago, when Palin’s church, the Wasilla Bible Church, gave its pulpit over to a figure viewed with deep hostility by many Jewish organizations: David Brickner, the founder of Jews for Jesus.

Palin’s pastor, Larry Kroon, introduced Brickner on Aug. 17, according to a transcript of the sermon on the church’s website.

“He’s a leader of Jews for Jesus, a ministry that is out on the leading edge in a pressing, demanding area of witnessing and evangelism,” Kroon said.

Brickner then explained that Jesus and his disciples were themselves Jewish.

“The Jewish community, in particular, has a difficult time understanding this reality,” he said.
Brickner’s mission has drawn wide criticism from the organized Jewish community, and the Anti-Defamation League accused them in a report of “targeting Jews for conversion with subterfuge and deception.”

Brickner also described terrorist attacks on Israelis as God's "judgment of unbelief" of Jews who haven't embraced Christianity.

"Judgment is very real and we see it played out on the pages of the newspapers and on the television. It's very real. When [Brickner's son] was in Jerusalem he was there to witness some of that judgment, some of that conflict, when a Palestinian from East Jerusalem took a bulldozer and went plowing through a score of cars, killing numbers of people. Judgment — you can't miss it."

Palin was in church that day, Kroon said, though he cautioned against attributing Brickner’s views to her.

Also, just released: Video of Sarah Palin officially announcing her candidacy. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0f8qdvn_Zo)

[Infra-Man]

Thursday, John McCain makes his nomination acceptance speech.

Also on Thursday, Barack Obama will appear on "The O'Reilly Factor"

:eek:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0908/Dept_of_Counterprogramming_Obama_to_appear_on_ORei lly_tonight.html?showall


Dept. of Counterprogramming: Obama to appear on O'Reilly Thursday

Barack Obama will appear on Fox News' "O'Reilly Factor" Thursday night, a Democratic source tells Politico.

The move is timed to counterprogram John McCain's speech to the Republican National Convention, which is likely to drive Fox's ratings sky-high and to give Obama access to a conservative audience.

It's Obama's first appearance on the widely viewed cable show, and is a sign of what Vanity Fair today reported is a "tentative truce" between Obama and News Corp. chief Rupert Murdoch.

Obama clashed with Fox News during the primary after it aired early reports suggesting he had been a Muslim in Indonesia. The relationship warmed in May, however, when he appeared on "Fox News Sunday" and told its host, Chris Wallace, that he was "looking forward" to appearing on "The O'Reilly Factor."

[KevinTBrown]

Thursday, John McCain makes his nomination acceptance speech.

Also on Thursday, Barack Obama will appear on "The O'Reilly Factor"

:eek:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0908/Dept_of_Counterprogramming_Obama_to_appear_on_ORei lly_tonight.html?showall

Well, crap! I may be forced to watch O'Reilly for the second time in my life....







By the way, what are the odds of McCain dumping Palin? Glad you asked: http://news.yahoo.com/story//bloomberg/20080902/pl_bloomberg/azjwbcginwsg

Right now they're 20-1. :wink:

[Infra-Man]

Another day, another new thing about Sarah Palin

http://blogs.marketwatch.com/election/2008/09/02/palin-said-war-in-iraq-gas-pipeline-are-gods-will/

Palin said war in Iraq, gas pipeline are God’s will
The war in Iraq is part of God’s plan, Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin said in June in a speech at her former church.

Palin, the Republican vice presidential candidate whose son will deploy to Iraq in a few weeks, told the students that “our national leaders, are sending [the troops] out on a task that is from God.”

Building a natural-gas pipeline is also part of God’s will, she said, according to a video published by the Huffington Post taken from material posted on the website of the Wasilla Assembly of God. Read more. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/02/palins-church-may-have-sh_n_123205.html)

Earlier, she exhorted the students to pray for pipeline, saying “we can work together to make sure God’s will is done.” She said God wanted to extract natural resources.

Palin attended the church from the time she was 12 until 2002 and she still “maintains a friendship” with the church, the church office told Huffington Post.

–Rex Nutting, MarketWatch

EDIT:
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1237/mccainhandonface1uy5.jpg

[Infra-Man]

Right now they're 20-1. :wink:

Actually it's gone down to 8-1 now, which would mean a worse payout if you bet on it than the 20-1 odds.

Could get a bump up to 12-1 based on the speech tonight, but most likely by next week, they'll be down to 1-100 (the odds that The Harlem Globetrotters will beat The Washington Generals)

[the4thpip]

Actually it's gone down to 8-1 now, which would mean a worse payout if you bet on it than the 20-1 odds.

Could get a bump up to 12-1 based on the speech tonight, but most likely by next week, they'll be down to 1-100 (which seems like the odds that The Harlem Globetrotters beating The Washington Generals)

I wonder if she has as much input into her speeches as Obama has.

[KevinTBrown]

That's a GREAT "face/palm" pic..... that'll get tons of usage in this thread from this point forward I'm sure.

[Infra-Man]

I wonder if she has as much input into her speeches as Obama has.

There was a news story somewhere that former Bush admin people are stepping in to write her speech and brief her on foreign policy. *cough* Pygmalion *cough*

That's a GREAT "face/palm" pic..... that'll get tons of usage in this thread from this point forward I'm sure.

There's also this one I've seen a few times...
http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii44/carolynlibrarian/roflbotyt4sns3.jpg

[KevinTBrown]

There was a news story somewhere that former Bush admin people are stepping in to write her speech and brief her on foreign policy. *cough* Pygmalion *cough*

But.... but.... but.... she has more experience than Obama!!! That's what the GOP has been saying!!! And they wouldn't knowingly deceive us, would they....??


:tongue:

[Tetsuo_man]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sE4TExej358&NR=1

I'm still getting the benefit of a doubt that this is just poorly worded and not further evidence that Bristol is Trigg's real mother.

Also more on troopergate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wikkair9l2c

[FalconX2000]

Nice try Blonde Doctor,

but that is only one speech.
As opposed to Obama who is so dependent on the one word that he sounds as if he's contantly trying to break a dollar.
(ever look at his poster? the word "Change" is Larger than Obama's name)

Rather than parrot the word "dream" every 3.5 seconds, Dr King took ACTIONS. to see his dream fulfilled. He and his folowers braved riot cops, german shepards, firehoses, the national guard, and an entire culture of bigotry, hatred violence, and systematic oppression.

Obama is no Martin Luther King.

Oh for the love of...:mad:


Campaign theme =/= Auto defense against controversies.

Every damn politician worth his salt hammers in on his theme. Hope, change, the economy (without detail), experience, judgement, whatever it is.

You're making a comparison as if Obama said he has brought fresh hope to the country as a general defence against controversies regarding him.

[FalconX2000]

Thursday, John McCain makes his nomination acceptance speech.

Also on Thursday, Barack Obama will appear on "The O'Reilly Factor"

:eek:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0908/Dept_of_Counterprogramming_Obama_to_appear_on_ORei lly_tonight.html?showall

Now that's freakin brilliant.:eek: If you're gonna appear on Fox News to avoid criticism of avoiding it, do it during the Republican convention.

[KevinTBrown]

Obama slams McCain on abortion. (http://dyn.politico.com/members/forums/thread.cfm?catid=1&subcatid=2&threadid=1301578)

[the4thpip]

Now that's freakin brilliant.:eek: If you're gonna appear on Fox News to avoid criticism of avoiding it, do it during the Republican convention.

oh, I bet that the Republicans now wish they'd stuck to tradition and been quieter during the Democratic convention.

[Samurai]

Another Democrat lie proven wrong:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26524024/

updated 4:48 a.m. PT, Wed., Sept. 3, 2008

ST. PAUL, Minnesota - Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin's husband, Todd, twice registered as a member of the Alaskan Independence Party, a fierce states' rights group that wants to turn all federal lands in Alaska back to the state. Sarah Palin herself was never a member of the party, according to state officials.

Todd Palin's party affiliation emerged Tuesday as the latest issue confronting the McCain campaign as it prepared to introduce Gov. Palin to the Republican National Convention.

The McCain campaign on Tuesday forcefully worked to tamp down questions about Sarah Palin's association with the Independence Party and with former presidential candidate Pat Buchanan that were being raised by Democrats, Internet bloggers and even Independence Party officials.

Voter registration records and past news reports, however, show Palin never registered as a member of the Independence Party, and backed Steve Forbes' presidential campaign in 2000, not Buchanan.

"Supporters of Barack Obama are engaged in an unfortunate and nasty smear campaign," McCain spokesman Brian Rogers said, specifically citing issues related to Palin's politics.

Gail Fenumiai, director of the Alaska Division of Elections, said Todd Palin twice registered under the Alaskan Independence Party — in 1995 and 2000. Some members of the party have advocated secession from the United States, though that is not a goal listed in the party's platform.

Voter registration records show Sarah Palin registered in May 1982 as a member of the Republican Party and has not changed her affiliation. Todd Palin has been registered undeclared since 2002, Fenumiai said.

[KevinTBrown]

Another Democrat lie proven wrong:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26524024/

updated 4:48 a.m. PT, Wed., Sept. 3, 2008

Actually, you may want to discuss that with Associated Press. That's where the story came from.

Obama's campaign has been absent in terms giving quotes about Palin other than congratulating her and Obama himself saying that the family is "hands off".

It's just the Pubs trying to stir things up by blaming someone who has not done anything.

Kinda like blaming Hussein for 9/11 when it was Bin Laden.

Notice a pattern? :rolleyes:

[LtMarvel]

And as pointed out, it was the Independent Party that claimed Sarah as a member, not the Democrats.

Oh, and I note there is no refuting that Sarah openly communicated on friendly terms with the Independent party...

[KevinTBrown]

By the way, eith MSNBC is wrong or the NY Sun is wrong:

http://www.nysun.com/national/palins-husband-registered-with-alaska/85035/

Her husband registered twice.

[Charles RB]

It worked for Palin too, since she marriage her teenage sweetheart and her first son came along eight months later.

Oh ho ho.

Kevin, with all due respect, the fact that 11 times in 44 minutes doesn't seem exessive to you...scares the living shit out of me!

Not really - the thrust of his campaign and rhetoric is "I will change things, have hope" which is a standard political campaign/rhetoric. If his campaign was "security security TERRORISTS", you'd expect him to say "security", "threat" and the like a lot. If he wanted to do a speech convincing everyone he knows things in the role, he'd say "I know" a lot and "we know" when trying to flatter the audience.

Being a POW three decades ago, however, isn't relevant to McCain's political campaign or the role he's going for.

[Buzz Dixon]

By the way, what are the odds of McCain dumping Palin? Glad you asked: http://news.yahoo.com/story//bloomberg/20080902/pl_bloomberg/azjwbcginwsg

Right now they're 20-1. :wink:
Actually they're now 8-1:

Before the Republican senator's presidential campaign disclosed the pregnancy of Palin's 17-year-old daughter, bookmakers in Britain and Ireland were offering 20-1 odds or higher on a bet that she would be forced off the ticket, meaning a 1 pound ($1.78) bet would pay 20 pounds. Now that same bet will pay no more than 8 pounds.

``While it is rare that a VP candidate gets dropped, it's not completely impossible,'' said Ken Robertson, political betting analyst at Paddy Power Plc, a Dublin-based gambling company. ``Lots of our punters are betting `Shocking' Sarah's days are numbered,'' he added.

"Shocking Sarah" -- I like it!

[Buzz Dixon]

Another Democrat lie proven wrong:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26524024/

updated 4:48 a.m. PT, Wed., Sept. 3, 2008So the governor of the state was not a member of a "Hate America" secessionist party but her husband was.

Hil got righteously blamed for Bill's errors since she was his enabler.

Mr. Pot, Mr. Kettle. Mr. Kettle, Mr. Pot.

[Buzz Dixon]

Let's give Andrew Sullivan's Daily Dish a morning perusal, shall we?

Learning by Osmosis

As [Alaska's] governor, Sarah Palin would know more by osmosis – if nothing else – about the necessity for U.S. anti-missile systems than either Messrs. Obama or Biden.

http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/


The Christianist Crusader

Vicki Naegele was the managing editor of the Mat-Su Valley Frontiersman at the time. "[defeated rival John Stein] figured he was just going to run your average, friendly small-town race," she recalls, "but it turned into something much different than that." Naegele held the same conservative Christian beliefs as Palin but didn't think they had any place in local politics.

"I just thought, That's ridiculous, she should concentrate on roads, not abortion," says Naegele...

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837918,00.html



McCain = McGovern?

Perhaps Senator McCain knew everything that has, with dizzying suddenness, emerged about his vice presidential pick, Gov. Sarah Palin of Alaska — that she was a director of a political committee in support of Ted Stevens, the Alaska senator now under indictment; an initial supporter of the so-called bridge to nowhere; an appointer of a man who had been officially reprimanded for sexual harassment as the public safety commissioner in Alaska; a mother of an unwed and pregnant 17-year-old; and other things being ferreted out by the minute. But it is an insult to Senator McCain’s intelligence to think even half of these or other matters were known to him before he chose her.

http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/03/opinion/03wills.html&OQ=_rQ3D2Q26refQ3DopinionQ26orefQ3Dslogin&OP=5d80eabcQ2Fa,.8awsGOyssFQ3AaQ3ADDQ3EaD!aDQ26asQ 5ETMTsMaDQ26,T((OKYFQ60(



It Really Is The Republicans' 1968

I have to say that the 2008 St Paul Convention and the 1968 Chicago Convention have some eerie parallels. An unpopular war, a deeply divided country, and a ruling party having a mental breakdown on live television. In St Paul, in some kind of freak political weather system, all the centrifugal forces that have been tearing at the GOP for two decades now have merged. The veneer of a serious governing party is colliding with the reality of a theocratic, fanatic base. The pull of foreign policy realism is busting up against an unrepentant neoconservatism made even more extreme by the McCain candidacy. The whole collision makes one want to look away.

And when you see who may inherit the spoils of this disaster, we can only breathe a sigh of relief. The Democrats do not have their version of Nixon to swoop in, and triumph. They already have their Reagan.

(It was close though.)

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/09/it-really-is-th.html

...and finally...

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/images/2008/09/03/palindeathrace1.jpg

[KevinTBrown]

McCain has a new ad out that is saying that Palin has more experience than Obama: http://news.yahoo.com/story//politico/20080903/pl_politico/13111

Next up for the Republicans: Proving that 2 > 10!

[Samurai]

About the Christian thing:

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gV5jvU52RD3WBflzbmSu5l6zwOqAD92V3VQG0

Palin has not pushed creation science as governor

By DAN JOLING – 9 hours ago

ANCHORAGE, Alaska (AP) — As a candidate for governor, Sarah Palin called for teaching creationism alongside evolution in public schools. But after Alaska voters elected her, Palin, now Republican John McCain's presidential running mate, kept her campaign pledge to not push the idea in the schools.

As for her personal views on evolution, Palin has said, "I believe we have a creator." But she has not made clear whether her belief also allowed her to accept the theory of evolution as fact.

"I'm not going to pretend I know how all this came to be," she has been quoted as saying.

McCain said during a debate last year that he believed in evolution when it came to the origin of life.

When asked during a televised debate in 2006 about evolution and creationism, Palin said, according to the Anchorage Daily News: "Teach both. You know, don't be afraid of information. Healthy debate is so important, and it's so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both."

In a subsequent interview with the Daily News, Palin said discussion of alternative views on the origins of life should be allowed in Alaska classrooms. "I don't think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn't have to be part of the curriculum," she said.

"It's OK to let kids know that there are theories out there. They gain information just by being in a discussion."

Creationism is the belief that the Earth and its creatures were created by a deity. It's an alternative to the origin of life explanation taught in public schools under the theory of evolution, which puts forth that all living organisms descended from a common ancestral gene pool.

Palin said during her 2006 gubernatorial campaign that if she were elected, she would not push the state Board of Education to add creation-based alternatives to the state's required curriculum, or look for creationism advocates when she appointed board members.

At a GOP presidential debate in May 2007 in Simi Valley, Calif., McCain said he believed in evolution.

"But," he added, "I also believe, when I hike the Grand Canyon and see it at sunset, that the hand of God is there also."

Palin's children attend public schools and Palin has made no push to have creationism taught in them.

Neither have Palin's socially conservative personal views on issues like abortion and gay marriage been translated into policies during her 20 months as Alaska's chief executive. It reflects a hands-off attitude toward mixing government and religion by most Alaskans.

"She has basically ignored social issues, period," said Gregg Erickson, an economist and columnist for the Alaska Budget Report.

[Samurai]

McCain has a new ad out that is saying that Palin has more experience than Obama: http://news.yahoo.com/story//politico/20080903/pl_politico/13111

Next up for the Republicans: Proving that 2 > 10!

It's truly amazing that you all have so much concern over the Rep's VP nominee's experience, and absolutely no care at all about your Presidential nominee's experience... Obama has less experience than Palin, why aren't you concerned about that?

[Royal]

It's like they're trying for the worst possible photo ops.

And now we see, of course, that the reason so many protesters are being arrested is that they're refusing to stay within the designated "free speech zones." You know, the little strips of asphalt well away from the convention center, where the TV news people don't go.

Also, their free concert got canceled by police.

[Paul McEnery]

Actually they're now 8-1:





Oh good lord.

People need it explained to them how eight to one odds work at the bookies now?

[Buzz Dixon]

It's truly amazing that you all have so much concern over the Rep's VP nominee's experience, and absolutely no care at all about your Presidential nominee's experience... Obama has less experience than Palin, why aren't you concerned about that?Because, as Andrew Sullivan has pointed out, Barack Obama comes across as a serious, intelligent man who has done some serious, intelligent thinking about problems facing the country and the world and has asked for input from other serious, intelligent people.

Sarah Palin first heard about the surge on the evening news.

[Paul McEnery]

It's truly amazing that you all have so much concern over the Rep's VP nominee's experience, and absolutely no care at all about your Presidential nominee's experience... Obama has less experience than Palin, why aren't you concerned about that?

No no no.

The point is, McCain is so boring, they'd rather talk about Sarah Palin, who won't even be on the ticket by November.

[KevinTBrown]

It's truly amazing that you all have so much concern over the Rep's VP nominee's experience, and absolutely no care at all about your Presidential nominee's experience... Obama has less experience than Palin, why aren't you concerned about that?

Ah, but he doesn't have less experience.


Member of the Illinois Senate of the 13th District from January 8, 1997 to November 4, 2004.

Senator from Illinois from January 4, 2005 to current.

Now unless my math is a tad bit fuzzy, that's 10+ years of public service. Those 7 years alone in the Illinois Senate immediately trump whatever lies you try to spread.

He's also worked in the US government for a longer period than Palin has in a state government.

Palin has 6 years as a mayor of a town with a population of less than 6,000 and less than 2 years as governor. She also had 2 years on the city council.

Obama's years in service easily beats Palin's. Not only in terms of the amount of time spent in public service, but in what jobs they held.


So you want to try that lie again?

[suttercain]

Sarah Palin, who won't even be on the ticket by November.

I know, this is going to be a debacle when they drop her.

Anyway, is it true McCain believes in evolution?

[the4thpip]

And as pointed out, it was the Independent Party that claimed Sarah as a member, not the Democrats.

Oh, and I note there is no refuting that Sarah openly communicated on friendly terms with the Independent party...

Well, that would be difficult to refute, considering this clip up on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4iCDBIAde8).

[Grazzt]

It's truly amazing that you all have so much concern over the Rep's VP nominee's experience, and absolutely no care at all about your Presidential nominee's experience... Obama has less experience than Palin, why aren't you concerned about that?

She has more experience...running a minor state and a small town. And she ran the town so poorly that they forced her to get an administrator. Really, why bother arguing her experience when so much of it has been so poor?

Hell, I could probably think of people not involved in politics at all who would be more qualified than she would be for running national affairs.

[Paul McEnery]

I know, this is going to be a debacle when they drop her.

Anyway, is it true McCain believes in evolution?

Apparently he thinks evolution is a matter of belief, which would be worrying if it wasn't for the fact that grandpa is generally out of touch with reality.

[suttercain]

Apparently he thinks evolution is a matter of belief, which would be worrying if it wasn't for the fact that grandpa is generally out of touch with reality.

I see what you're saying but, if he believes it to be true, he believes it is fact... no?

The thing is, I actually like the fact that he stated he is behind the theory of evolution. Do we know if Obama is behind the theory of evolution, anyone?

Thanks.

[the4thpip]

I know, this is going to be a debacle when they drop her.

Anyway, is it true McCain believes in evolution?

Have you compared his second wife to his first wife?

[the4thpip]

Ha-hah!

Seems like the unity message that was central to the Democratic convention in Denver last week got through to its intended recipients. A recent Gallup poll shows a big bump for Barack Obama among one key demographic: Hillary Clinton supporters.

Prior to the convention, Gallup says, 70 percent of Clinton supporters planned to vote for Obama in November. Now, that number is at 81 percent.

In fact, John McCain's choice of Sarah Palin as his running mate hasn't helped him woo over the Clinton backers he seemed in part to be targeting with the pick. Gallup reports that Obama has gained support from independent and Democratic white women, while McCain has gained among white Republican women. "The data suggest that McCain has in essence fought a rear-guard action of sorts among white women of his own GOP base, building their support to a degree even as he was losing support among independents and Democrats of both genders," Gallup says.

salon war room

[Infra-Man]

I see what you're saying but, if he believes it to be true, he believes it is fact... no?

The thing is, I actually like the fact that he stated he is behind the theory of evolution. Do we know if Obama is behind the theory of evolution, anyone?

Thanks.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/01/obama-on-evolution/

Q: York County was recently in the news for a lawsuit involving the teaching of intelligent design. What’s your attitude regarding the teaching of evolution in public schools?

A: I’m a Christian, and I believe in parents being able to provide children with religious instruction without interference from the state.

But I also believe our schools are there to teach worldly knowledge and science. I believe in evolution, and I believe there’s a difference between science and faith. That doesn’t make faith any less important than science. It just means they’re two different things. And I think it’s a mistake to try to cloud the teaching of science with theories that frankly don’t hold up to scientific inquiry.

[suttercain]

Have you compared his second wife to his first wife?

Why would I? I have known many a good men with 'cunt' wives.

[the4thpip]

Why would I? I have known many a good men with 'cunt' wives.

I meant that for him, there was an evolution there.

[Paul McEnery]

I see what you're saying but, if he believes it to be true, he believes it is fact... no?.

No.

When someone says they "believe" in evolution, they're saying science is a belief system, which is the opposite of a fact, and therefore creationism is equivalent and it's fair enough to teach it alongside evolution.

As it happens, McCain knows damn well that creationism is bullshit, but he's going to pander to the right anyway, while hedging to the grownups. But that one little word "belief" -- and the choice of a stone creationist as Veep -- shows he's willing to sacrifice education to the crazy Christians.

As for whether Obama is behind evolution...

Why is this even a question? Do we ask if Obama accepts the law of gravity?

[Charles RB]

Obama has less experience than Palin, why aren't you concerned about that?


Because he hasn't. Which is the point of what Kevin was saying and laughing about in the post you just fucking quoted.

Buzz also laughed about that recently too. As has everyone. They are laughing at the claim and those making it.

And she's been incompetent and corrupt, so they're laughing at that too and everyone trying to ignore it.

They're laughing at YOU.

[Charles RB]

In fact, John McCain's choice of Sarah Palin as his running mate hasn't helped him woo over the Clinton backers he seemed in part to be targeting with the pick. Gallup reports that Obama has gained support from independent and Democratic white women

And now, a message for Novoya:

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
AAAAAHHHHHH, HA HA HA
AH HA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

(Barack Obama approves this message.)

[the4thpip]

Nicely put, Maureen Dowd!

Only four days into her reign as John McCain’s “soul mate,” or “Trophy Vice,” as some bloggers are calling her, on the ticket known as “Maverick Squared,” Palin, the governor of Alaska, has already accrued two gates (Troopergate and Broken-watergate), a lawyer (for Troopergate), a future son-in-law named Levi (a high school ice hockey player, described by New York magazine as “sex on skates”), and a National Enquirer headline about the “Teen Prego Crisis” with 17-year-old daughter Bristol.

It seems like a long time since Vice President Dan Quayle denounced Murphy Brown for having a baby out of wedlock, bemoaning a “poverty of values.” It also seems like a long time — and another McCain ago — that Republicans supporting W. smeared the old John McCain by spreading rumors that he had fathered an illegitimate black child.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/03/opinion/03dowd.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

[king mob]

About the Christian thing:

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gV5jvU52RD3WBflzbmSu5l6zwOqAD92V3VQG0

You missed bolding this.

As for her personal views on evolution, Palin has said, "I believe we have a creator." But she has not made clear whether her belief also allowed her to accept the theory of evolution as fact.


And this

When asked during a televised debate in 2006 about evolution and creationism, Palin said, according to the Anchorage Daily News: "Teach both. You know, don't be afraid of information. Healthy debate is so important, and it's so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both."

In a subsequent interview with the Daily News, Palin said discussion of alternative views on the origins of life should be allowed in Alaska classrooms. "I don't think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn't have to be part of the curriculum," she said.

"It's OK to let kids know that there are theories out there. They gain information just by being in a discussion."


Teaching creationism as an 'alternative' to evolution in science classes is bollocks as it isn't an 'alternative'. Palin hardly paints herself as someone making a stand against teaching children nonsense by firmly say that creationism doesn't belong anywhere but in religious education.

[Tetsuo_man]

Also if she's not afraid of information why suggest abstinence only programs?

[Tetsuo_man]

Campaign wont let McCain's mother talk: http://pageoneq.com/news/2008/AUDIO_McCains_mother_tells_Signorile_They_wont_let _me__0903.html

[king mob]

And she's been incompetent and corrupt, so they're laughing at that too and everyone trying to ignore it.


I was astounded reading her biography in both The Times & The Guardian. This is someone who is clearly out of her depth, has incredibly questionable views & little or no understanding of world politics.

She's obviously been brought in to appeal to the Christian far-right & loons like Novoya, but she's up to her neck in shite & how on earth can she preach 'family values' when her daughter's very pregnant?
Politicians have to be careful with this 'family values' buisness as it often bites them hard on the arse: see John Major's Conservatives in the 97 UK election for a fine example of this.

[KevinTBrown]

This just in!!!

McCain shakes the hand of Bristol's baby's father:

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20080903/i/r2085734171.jpg


McCain quoted as saying: Heh. Good job, young man. You do America proud. You know I'm a POW, right? Lemme tell ya all about it....











:tongue:

Not really, but looks like it could be happening.....

[DavidAllred]

When someone says they "believe" in evolution, they're saying science is a belief system, which is the opposite of a fact, and therefore creationism is equivalent and it's fair enough to teach it alongside evolution.

Why is this even a question? Do we ask if Obama accepts the law of gravity?

Paul, you do realize that the term 'evolution' is quite broad, and for some people includes the theory of abiogenesis, which is as currently articulated, a belief system.

[DavidAllred]

http://www.connpost.com/breakingnews/ci_10358005

This is the kind of thing that is going to cost the Dems the election.

[Infra-Man]

More proof that Palin wasn't vetted as well as she should have been

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-na-earmarks3-2008sep03,0,284198.story

McCain had criticized earmarks from Palin
Three times in recent years, the Arizona senator's lists of 'objectionable' pork spending have included earmarks requested by his new running mate.

WASILLA, ALASKA -- For much of his long career in Washington, John McCain has been throwing darts at the special spending system known as earmarking, through which powerful members of Congress can deliver federal cash for pet projects back home with little or no public scrutiny. He's even gone so far as to publish "pork lists" detailing these financial favors.

Three times in recent years, McCain's catalogs of "objectionable" spending have included earmarks for this small Alaska town, requested by its mayor at the time -- Sarah Palin.

Now, McCain, the likely Republican presidential nominee, has chosen Palin as his running mate, touting her as a reformer just like him.

McCain has made opposition to pork-barrel spending a central theme of his 2008 campaign. "Earmarking deprives federal agencies of scarce resources, at the whim of individual members of Congress," McCain has said.

But records show that Palin -- first as mayor of Wasilla and recently as governor of Alaska -- was far from shy about pursuing tens of millions in earmarks for her town, her region and her state.

This year, Palin, who has been governor for nearly 22 months, defended earmarking as a vital part of the legislative system. "The federal budget, in its various manifestations, is incredibly important to us, and congressional earmarks are one aspect of this relationship," she wrote in a newspaper column.

In 2001, McCain's list of spending that had been approved without the normal budget scrutiny included a $500,000 earmark for a public transportation project in Wasilla. The Arizona senator targeted $1 million in a 2002 spending bill for an emergency communications center in town -- one that local law enforcement has said is redundant and creates confusion.

McCain also criticized $450,000 set aside for an agricultural processing facility in Wasilla that was requested during Palin's tenure as mayor and cleared Congress soon after she left office in 2002. The funding was provided to help direct locally grown produce to schools, prisons and other government institutions, according to Taxpayers for Common Sense, a nonpartisan watchdog group.

Wasilla received $11.9 million in earmarks from 2000 to 2003. The results of this spending are very apparent today. (The town also benefited from $15 million in federal funds to promote regional rail transportation.)

The community transit center is a landmark: a one-story, tile-fronted building with a drive-through garage. Its fleet of 10 buses provides service throughout the region. Mat-Su Community Transit Agency officials say the building was made possible with a combination of federal money and matching gifts from a private foundation.

Taylor Griffin, a McCain campaign spokesman, said that when Palin became mayor in 1996, "she faced a system that was broken. Small towns like Wasilla in Alaska depended on earmarks to take care of basic needs. . . . That was something that Gov. Palin was alarmed about and was one of the formative experiences that led her toward the reform-oriented stance that she has taken as her career has progressed."

Palin, he said, was "disgusted" that small towns like hers were dependent on earmarks.

Public records paint a different picture:

Wasilla had received few if any earmarks before Palin became mayor. She actively sought federal funds -- a campaign that began to pay off only after she hired a lobbyist with close ties to Sen. Ted Stevens (R-Alaska), who long controlled federal spending as chairman of the Senate Appropriations Committee. He made funneling money to Alaska his hallmark.

Steven Silver was a former chief of staff for Stevens. After he was hired, Wasilla obtained funding for several projects in 2002, including an additional $600,000 in transportation funding.

That year, a local water and sewer project received $1.5 million, according to Taxpayers for Common Sense, which combs federal spending measures to identify projects inserted by congressional members.

When Palin spoke after McCain introduced her as his running mate at a rally in Ohio last week, she made fun of earmarking. She said she had rejected $223 million in federal funds for a bridge linking Ketchikan to an island with an airport and 50 residents, referring to it by its derogatory label: the "bridge to nowhere."

In the nationally televised speech, she stood by McCain and said, "I've championed reform to end the abuses of earmark spending by Congress. In fact, I told Congress thanks, but no thanks, on that bridge to nowhere. If our state wanted a bridge, I said, we'd build it ourselves."

However, as a candidate for governor in 2006, Palin had backed funding for the bridge. After her election, she killed the much-ridiculed project when it became clear the state had other priorities. She said she would use the federal funds to fill those needs.

This year she submitted to Congress a list of Alaska projects worth $197.8 million, including $2 million to research crab productivity in the Bering Sea and $7.4 million to improve runway lighting at eight Alaska airports. A spokesman said she cut the original list of 54 projects to 31.

"So while Sen. McCain was going after cutting earmarks in Washington," said Steve Ellis of Taxpayers for Common Sense, "Gov. Palin was going after getting earmarks."

[Grazzt]

http://www.connpost.com/breakingnews/ci_10358005

This is the kind of thing that is going to cost the Dems the election.

I think it's more than offset by all the unnecessary shows of force by police in other instances.

[Stressfactor]

Eh, they call themselves "Anarchists" repeatedly and they certainly behave like it.

I'd be more worried if they were calling themselves something with "Democrat" in the name. Plus, even the newspaper report mentions that this group had nothing to do with the other, peaceful, war protest marchers.

[Infra-Man]

http://www.connpost.com/breakingnews/ci_10358005

This is the kind of thing that is going to cost the Dems the election.

Where does it say they were democrats?

Looks like the people doing the illegal stuff were self-identified anarchists, and everyone agrees that anarchists are morons.

EDIT:
*Stewie voice*: Yes, anarchists, wear similar black shirts in solidarity. Oh, you're all such independent-minded people, especially when you're wearing a type of uniform. I bet you're gonna draw a letter "A" in a circle now, right? Ohh, please keep the letter "A" inside the circle. But, oh no, that's not how you anarchists roll, right? Lookit that... Lookit that... the legs of the letter "A" and the crossbar of the letter "A" are penetrating the boundaries of the circle. Oh, how marvelously rebellious, and I notice all of you are drawing your letter "A's" the same way. Oh, do carry on, you're so amusing, all of you anarchists, do carry on.

[Paul McEnery]

Paul, you do realize that the term 'evolution' is quite broad, and for some people includes the theory of abiogenesis, which is as currently articulated, a belief system.

No it isn't.

That's what the creationists say. And they're talking through their hats.

[Paul McEnery]

Where does it say they were democrats?

Looks like the people doing the illegal stuff were self-identified anarchists, and everyone agrees that anarchists are morons.

*ahem*

As an anarchist of some 30 years standing, I take quite a bit of exception to being identified with these wankers.

[KevinTBrown]

Where does it say they were democrats?

Looks like the people doing the illegal stuff were self-identified anarchists, and everyone agrees that anarchists are morons.

Bingo.




Unless that had a Scarlet "D" on them, no one knows what their political affiliation is.

[KevinTBrown]

*ahem*

As an anarchist of some 30 years standing, I take quite a bit of exception to being identified with these wankers.

*shoots Paul with a smoke canister*











Oh.

Sorry.

Over reacted. :redface:

[Infra-Man]

*ahem*

As an anarchist of some 30 years standing, I take quite a bit of exception to being identified with these wankers.

Point taken. No offense meant to you.

My experience with anarchists have been idiot kids at punk shows who have co-opted the imagery and the iconography without the political or intellectual component. Bored suburbanites who rebel only because, but not because of something.

[Charles RB]

Also if she's not afraid of information why suggest abstinence only programs?

Bwa ha ha.


She's obviously been brought in to appeal to the Christian far-right & loons like Novoya, but she's up to her neck in shite & how on earth can she preach 'family values' when her daughter's very pregnant?

The loons bit is interesting, because it doesn't look like there are as many as they want us to think. Did McCain not look closely? It's already clear he didn't vet Palin very well.

[Charles RB]

http://www.connpost.com/breakingnews/ci_10358005

This is the kind of thing that is going to cost the Dems the election.

But they weren't the ones doing the damage - that was a fringe group unrelated to the march organisers and who call themselves anarchists.

[Paul McEnery]

Point taken. No offense meant to you.

My experience with anarchists have been idiot kids at punk shows who have co-opted the imagery and the iconography without the political or intellectual component. Bored suburbanites who rebel only because, but not because of something.

Oh, don't cut these losers that much slack. A group in London called Black Flag used to do exactly the same pathetic things.

But the nice people at, for instance, the San Francisco Anarchist Book Fair are a completely different kettle of fish.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

I heard that some of Bush's former people are helping Palin get ready for the Oct 2 debate against Biden...

Is that true?

[Corrina]

I heard that some of Bush's former people are helping Palin get ready for the Oct 2 debate against Biden...

Is that true?

They were helping her prepare her speech tonight.

[Buzz Dixon]

So we don't spend all our time beating up on Sarah...

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2008/09/platform_blogging.php

The Republican party doesn't want to account for inflation when making the Federal budget.

Yeah, why not. Add "the rain shall never fall till after sundown" while you're at it.

[DavidAllred]

No it isn't.

That's what the creationists say. And they're talking through their hats.

You never cease to bring me amusement my friend. :smile:

[suttercain]

As for whether Obama is behind evolution...

Why is this even a question? Do we ask if Obama accepts the law of gravity?

We don't ask if he accepts them, but if he was to say he didn't 'believe' in them I'd care. Just like that crazy lady on the view saying she didn't know if the Earth is flat. Therefore, 'Why is this even a question' is because I care what he thinks if he wants to be president.

[Charles RB]

The Republican party doesn't want to account for inflation when making the Federal budget.


That's the sort of thinking that gets you the special effects & sets of late-70s Doctor Who and Blake's 7.

[the4thpip]

More from salon.com:

ST. PAUL, Minn. -- Former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney will be addressing the faithful at the Republican Convention here tonight, and some excerpts of his speech have already been released. A couple lines jumped out at me immediately:

We need change all right -- change from a liberal Washington to a conservative Washington! We have a prescription for every American who wants change in Washington -- throw out the big government liberals and elect John McCain.

Remind me -- who's the president right now?

[Charles RB]

Oh my fucking god.

[Royal]

I heard that some of Bush's former people are helping Palin get ready for the Oct 2 debate against Biden...

Is that true?

If it isn't, it's stupid.