2008 U.S. Presidential Election Mega thread

[Novaya Havoc]

What a child you are!

She had a Down Syndrome baby, you schmuck.

You really think someone in that circumstance -- for a Republican audience, no less -- has any business being on the campaign trail for five months?

Of course you do, because you're completely out of touch with reality.



And that's completely aside from the fact that Ted Stevens is going to jail, and the last thing any Republican Campaign is going to want is that noise in the headlines.

I brought Palin up in this thread -- and you don't think I know about her 5th child, much less her family?

Yes, lecture me! For I am one of those ignorant Hillary supporters. :(

She does have a husband, you know! And, oddly enough, two people can parent! Besides, she's running for Vice President. For 2 months. Yes, that is so taxing. Her children won't be able to handle it!

Your sexist double-standard shines on through.


EDIT: Ted Stevens? Palin ENDED his "Bridge to Nowhere" project. Like that'll stick on her. Really, now.

[Kevinroc]

I brought Palin up in this thread -- and you don't think I know about her 5th child, much less her family?

Yes, lecture me! For I am one of those ignorant Hillary supporters. :(

She does have a husband, you know! And, oddly enough, two people can parent! Besides, she's running for Vice President. For 2 months. Yes, that is so taxing. Her children won't be able to handle it!

Your sexist double-standard shines on through.


EDIT: Ted Stevens? Palin ENDED his "Bridge to Nowhere" project. Like that'll stick on her. Really, now.

Paul seems upset with you since you're perfectly willing to vote against your self-interests because of Obama's somehow slight against Hillary Clinton. The truth is Obama was far nicer to Clinton than he had any right to be and had won the contest long before it was actually over (he created an insurmountable lead after he won... what was it? 12 contests in a row?). It was Clinton's refusal to withdraw and her claims that riled up her fanbase to this point where many of them just don't completely understand Obama really is the legitimate Democratic party candidate.

Your idea that just having a woman on the ticket is more important than having someone qualified on the ticket can be very disconcerting for people. You'd really be willing to vote for McCain, who is a complete 180 from all of Hillary's positions, because Hillary didn't get the nomination? That McCain would make a woman his running mate in some vain attempt to appeal to female voters, whose record indicates that he is perfectly willing to take away their rates?

Seriously, I don't understand this kind of thinking.

[Adam C]

I brought Palin up in this thread -- and you don't think I know about her 5th child, much less her family?

Yes, lecture me! For I am one of those ignorant Hillary supporters. :(

She does have a husband, you know! And, oddly enough, two people can parent! Besides, she's running for Vice President. For 2 months. Yes, that is so taxing. Her children won't be able to handle it!

Your sexist double-standard shines on through.

I never thought I'd see the day when another poster would actually make Sam and Bri's arguments look good in comparison.

[Novaya Havoc]

Paul seems upset with you since you're perfectly willing to vote against your self-interests because of Obama's somehow slight against Hillary Clinton. The truth is Obama was far nicer to Clinton than he had any right to be and had won the contest long before it was actually over (he created an insurmountable lead after he won... what was it? 12 contests in a row?). It was Clinton's refusal to withdraw and her claims that riled up her fanbase to this point where many of them just don't completely understand Obama really is the legitimate Democratic party candidate.

Your idea that just having a woman on the ticket is more important than having someone qualified on the ticket can be very disconcerting for people. You'd really be willing to vote for McCain, who is a complete 180 from all of Hillary's positions, because Hillary didn't get the nomination? That McCain would make a woman his running mate in some vain attempt to appeal to female voters, whose record indicates that he is perfectly willing to take away their rates?

Seriously, I don't understand this kind of thinking.

No.

Neither candidate has the pledged delegates to be the "clear" nominee.

My Michigan vote was stolen by the DNC RBC based on hypotheticals ("exit polling") but sold that "Michigan counted! It was the best compromise!" You don't compromise 80,000 tangible Hillary Clinton votes, and assume all "Uncommitted" was genuinely "Barack Obama."

DNC Chair Howard Dean himself suspended and was on the first vote at the 2004 convention with under 200 delegates. But Hillary is being "selfish," what with winning all the big states, swing states, and carrying the popular vote. Right.

McCain is not 180 degrees from Clinton. As I said upthread, Joe Biden himself advocated McCain to be Kerry's running mate in 2004.

So nah. The DNC has botched this entire election. I'm resigned to President McCain now, and I honestly think selecting Sarah Palin as his VP would sink the Obama battleship just after leaving the harbor of the DNC convention. All the air, sucked right from the Democrats' balloon.


But feel free to continue to throw "The Children!" "Iraq!" "The Economy!" "Gay Rights!" "Roe v. Wade!" at me in some bizarre fascination with the same fear-mongering my party bawled about when the Republicans used it on National Security in '04. It won't work.

Especially not with "I voted for the Iraq War and Bankruptcy Bill!" Joe Biden. Weren't you all crucifying Hillary over that war vote as recently as June?

Yeah. Fun times.

[the4thpip]

I must say.

If McCain is smart and selects Alaskan Gov. Sarah Palin as his VP, he will have this entire thing in the bag.

No joke.

I really think you are selling female and gay voters short. Not everybody is as narrowly focused as you.

[rick]

My Michigan vote was stolen by the DNC RBC based on hypotheticals ("exit polling") but sold that "Michigan counted! It was the best compromise!" You don't compromise 80,000 tangible Hillary Clinton votes, and assume all "Uncommitted" was genuinely "Barack Obama.".


The people of Michigan are the ones who need to take responsibility for breaking the party rules and holding their primary early.

If you want to hold anyone responsible for the DNC deciding what Michigans uncommited votes were, blame your local party for throwing away your vote in the first place.

[Novaya Havoc]

I really think you are selling female and gay voters short. Not everybody is as narrowly focused as you.

Not everything is an "identity politics" pander, nor do I find Palin to be.

She's a governor (needed on this Senators-only slate), she's made smart fiscal choices for her State, and -- face it -- looks good on camera and will nerf the whole "McCain is so OOOOOLLLLLDDD!!!!" meme.

It's not like I vote for boobs.

[rick]

It's not like I vote for boobs.


Of course you do, we all do, all politicians are boobs in one way or another. :smile:

[Michael P]

Seriously, I don't understand this kind of thinking.

It's called "narcissism."

[Kevinroc]

No.

Neither candidate has the pledged delegates to be the "clear" nominee.

My Michigan vote was stolen by the DNC RBC based on hypotheticals ("exit polling") but sold that "Michigan counted! It was the best compromise!" You don't compromise 80,000 tangible Hillary Clinton votes, and assume all "Uncommitted" was genuinely "Barack Obama."

DNC Chair Howard Dean himself suspended and was on the first vote at the convention with under 200 delegates. But Hillary is being "selfish." Right.

McCain is not 180 degrees from Clinton. As I said upthread, Joe Biden himself advocated McCain to be Kerry's running mate in 2004.

So nah. The DNC has botched this entire election. I'm resigned to President McCain now, and I honestly think selecting Sarah Palin as his VP would sink the Obama battleship just after leaving the harbor of the DNC convention. All the air, sucked right from the Democrats' balloon.


But feel free to continue to throw "The Children!" "Iraq!" "The Economy!" "Gay Rights!" "Roe v. Wade!" at me in some bizarre fascination with the same fear-mongering my party bawled about when the Republicans used it on National Security in '04. It won't work.

Especially not with "I voted for the Iraq War and Bankruptcy Bill!" Joe Biden. Weren't you all crucifying Hillary over that war vote as recently as June?

Yeah. Fun times.

The truth is that Hillary KNEW going in that Michigan and Florida were going to have their results discounted and her people argued for this to happen. It was only after it became abundantly clear that she was going to lose that she did an about turn face and started claiming that Florida and Michigan should count completely as is without any punishment for them breaking party rules (rules that her people put in place when she was thought to be a shoe-in and didn't care).

As far as Biden advocating McCain being Kerry's VP, that's still at the bottom of a Democratic ticket and as we've seen in the last few years, McCain isn't the man that he has been presented as. He was too busy eating his birthday cake than doing anything for Katrina victims. Fact is McCain has dropped the ball and shown that he should not be president.

People are crying out about Bush policies that McCain will show he is going to continue, policies that stand completely against Hillary's viewpoint. Hillary herself even said that she would have been willing to call upon Joe Biden for anything (so it is VERY EASY to see him as being her running mate had she won the nomination). The fact is that Hillary supporters have nothing to complain about with Biden. He drafted the "violence against women act," fyi.

[Novaya Havoc]

The people of Michigan are the ones who need to take responsibility for breaking the party rules and holding their primary early.

If you want to hold anyone responsible for the DNC deciding what Michigans uncommited votes were, blame your local party for throwing away your vote in the first place.

LOL! This line of attack on other Democrats is so funny.

"Blame other Democrats! They ruined it! You Hillary supporters are delusional! Your STATE DEMOCRATS that actually enact positive policy for your state: they're the enemies!

Burn, crush, kill! All in the name of Obama! Vote for Him, or your rights will be taken away! But here's Joe Biden, a true Washington Outsider!"

Excuse me while I LOL.

The RBC stole Michigan votes, period. It's one thing to say "the election didn't count because of The Rules!" but the sickening pander of trying to count the election to keep Michigan in the D column, while effectively stealing solid Hillary votes -- 80,000 of them, approximately -- based on exit polling is beyond the pale.

No dice, no argument.

[rick]

LOL! This line of attack on other Democrats is so funny.

"Blame other Democrats! They ruined it! You Hillary supporters are delusional! Your STATE DEMOCRATS that actually enact positive policy for your state: they're the enemies!

Burn, crush, kill! All in the name of Obama! Vote for Him, or your rights will be taken away! But here's Joe Biden, a true Washington Outsider!"

Excuse me while I LOL.

The RBC stole Michigan votes, period. It's one thing to say "the election didn't count because of The Rules!" but the sickening pander of trying to count the election to keep Michigan in the D column, while effectively stealing solid Hillary votes -- 80,000 of them, approximately -- based on exit polling is beyond the pale.

No dice, no argument.


That's a big load of bullshit right there.

You all knew going into the primary that because you had broken rules that it was very likely that your votes would not have been counted at all.

Cry about how unfair it all is all you want, but blame yourselves, it was your states parties fault.

[Adam C]

No.

Neither candidate has the pledged delegates to be the "clear" nominee.

My Michigan vote was stolen by the DNC RBC based on hypotheticals ("exit polling") but sold that "Michigan counted! It was the best compromise!" You don't compromise 80,000 tangible Hillary Clinton votes, and assume all "Uncommitted" was genuinely "Barack Obama."

A deal that was cut in response to Hilary's demands (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/05/clinton-demands.html). Yet you've continued to single-handedly champion her while damning Obama for the DNC cutting a deal with her. So no, I can't take your indignation seriously.

So nah. The DNC has botched this entire election. I'm resigned to President McCain now, and I honestly think selecting Sarah Palin as his VP would sink the Obama battleship just after leaving the harbor of the DNC convention. All the air, sucked right from the Democrats' balloon.

But after people pointed out there is no basis for this idea, you not only continued on with it but resorted to personal attacks when someone pointed out that her having a baby with Down's Syndrome would make that possibility extremely unlikely.

But feel free to continue to throw "The Children!" "Iraq!" "The Economy!" "Gay Rights!" "Roe v. Wade!" at me in some bizarre fascination with the same fear-mongering my party bawled about when the Republicans used it on National Security in '04. It won't work.

That's because a Republican administration along with a Republican controlled Congress and Senate have utterly mismanaged the United States into the ground, and John McCain only indicates that he'll give us more of the same. Why should anyone vote that man?

[Michael P]

Novaya, if you were projecting any more, we could hook you up to a DVD player and show movies in Central Park.

[Novaya Havoc]

It's called "narcissism."

Narcissism?

http://mikep.of-the-night.com/MP-MikeinCostume1.gif

Really?

[rick]

Burn, crush, kill! All in the name of Obama! Vote for Him, or your rights will be taken away! But here's Joe Biden, a true Washington Outsider!"




By the way, I was neutral during the primaries and was perfectly willing to back Sen Clinton if she had won.

But face facts you dolt, she lost, and she lost fair and square.

You want to vote for McCain, fine then go and vote for McCain. If you want to vote against your own best interests out of a snit, please allow me to be the first to pat you on your stupid little head and send you on your way.

People like you are why people like Bush get elected, so really the Democrats are better off without you.

[Novaya Havoc]

By the way, I was neutral during the primaries and was perfectly willing to back Sen Clinton if she had won.

But face facts you dolt, she lost, and she lost fair and square.

You want to vote for McCain, fine then go and vote for McCain. If you want to vote against your own best interests out of a snit, please allow me to be the first to pat you on your stupid little head and send you on your way.

People like you are why people like Bush get elected, so really the Democrats are better off without you.

And people like you are the reason that Obama just can't close the deal with Clinton Dems.

But I'm just a "dolt." I mean, after all I was called an old woman, dead ender, clinger, and outside of the "new" party.

Winning friends, Obama style.

[the4thpip]

What a child you are!

She had a Down Syndrome baby, you schmuck.

You really think someone in that circumstance -- for a Republican audience, no less -- has any business being on the campaign trail for five months?






To be fair, of the two parties, the Republicans are more likely to produce a candidate heartless enough to do that.

[the4thpip]

Yes, lecture me! For I am one of those ignorant McCain supporters. :(

.

Fixed it for you.

[Novaya Havoc]

Fixed it for you.

!!!

And, in doing so, you've created a new electoral map! Why, I think that Utah is now trending blue!

smrt!

[Kevinroc]

And people like you are the reason that Obama just can't close the deal with Clinton Dems.

But I'm just a "dolt." I mean, after all I was called an old woman, dead ender, clinger, and outside of the "new" party.

Winning friends, Obama style.

After 8 years of Bush policies destroying America, can you really blame people for being short-tempered when they see someone willing to vote against everything they seem to believe in for some arbitrary reason? Because that's the kind of attitude the "Clinton Democrats" demonstrate when they say they are going to vote for McCain over Obama. These people are voting against everything they believe in for some arbitrary reason.

[Novaya Havoc]

After 8 years of Bush policies destroying America, can you really blame people for being short-tempered when they see someone willing to vote against everything they seem to believe in for some arbitrary reason? Because that's the kind of attitude the "Clinton Democrats" demonstrate when they say they are going to vote for McCain over Obama. These people are voting against everything they believe in for some arbitrary reason.

And after months upon months of DNC leaders basically telling us "we don't need you!" after legitimate reservations such as the vote stealing in Michigan makes people like myself much care?

And no. McCain is not "against everything I believe in." And especially not with Joe Biden on the Democratic ticket.

Again with the fear-mongering appeal.

[Adam C]

And people like you are the reason that Obama just can't close the deal with Clinton Dems.

Like what? A platform similar to hers, being conciliatory to her camp after winning the nomination, Hilary appearing at rallies with Obama after she withdrew in order to strengthen party unity, and finally giving the Clintons a prominent place in the 2008 Democratic National Convention? And then there's this:

http://www.democrats.org/page/community/group/HillaryClintonDemocratsforBarackObama

We support Hillary Clinton. We support her fight for our progressive values. We support her commitment to our nation and our Democratic Party. And now, we stand with her in supporting Barack Obama for President! :-)

[rick]

And people like you are the reason that Obama just can't close the deal with Clinton Dems.

But I'm just a "dolt." I mean, after all I was called an old woman, dead ender, clinger, and outside of the "new" party.

Winning friends, Obama style.


You are no friend of Sen. Clinton, Sen. Obama or of the Democratic Party.

You would through away your nation because you would rather have a snit.

[Adam C]

And no. McCain is not "against everything I believe in." And especially not with Joe Biden on the Democratic ticket.

So how do his policies match Hilary's?

[rick]

And no. McCain is not "against everything I believe in." And especially not with Joe Biden on the Democratic ticket.



It's not too late to change your party affiliation.

You could make apperances with Liberman.

[Novaya Havoc]

and finally giving the Clintons a prominent place in the 2008 Democratic National Convention?

Arrogance. Look it up.

[Samurai]

Paul seems upset with you since you're perfectly willing to vote against your self-interests because of Obama's somehow slight against Hillary Clinton. The truth is Obama was far nicer to Clinton than he had any right to be and had won the contest long before it was actually over (he created an insurmountable lead after he won... what was it? 12 contests in a row?). It was Clinton's refusal to withdraw and her claims that riled up her fanbase to this point where many of them just don't completely understand Obama really is the legitimate Democratic party candidate.

Your idea that just having a woman on the ticket is more important than having someone qualified on the ticket can be very disconcerting for people. You'd really be willing to vote for McCain, who is a complete 180 from all of Hillary's positions, because Hillary didn't get the nomination? That McCain would make a woman his running mate in some vain attempt to appeal to female voters, whose record indicates that he is perfectly willing to take away their rates?

Seriously, I don't understand this kind of thinking.

By the way, I was neutral during the primaries and was perfectly willing to back Sen Clinton if she had won.

But face facts you dolt, she lost, and she lost fair and square.

You want to vote for McCain, fine then go and vote for McCain. If you want to vote against your own best interests out of a snit, please allow me to be the first to pat you on your stupid little head and send you on your way.

People like you are why people like Bush get elected, so really the Democrats are better off without you.

For those that keep saying this, I wonder how you'd react to a Republican who was all for Guiliani, or Huckabee, or Romney, etc, who came on here and said they were so angry McCain was chosen, they're voting for Obama instead....

Would you tell them they are voting against their own best interests and encourage them to vote McCain, since he agrees with their chosen candidate far more than Obama does? Would you say they are being too petty, and are wrong to vote for Obama for the stated reason? Somehow, I have a feeling the reaction would be 180 degrees different than a PUMA voting for McCain...

[rick]

For those that keep saying this, I wonder how you'd react to a Republican who was all for Guiliani, or Huckabee, or Romney, etc, who came on here and said they were so angry McCain was chosen, they're voting for Obama instead....

Would you tell them they are voting against their own best interests and encourage them to vote McCain, since he agrees with their chosen candidate far more than Obama does? Would you say they are being too petty, and are wrong to vote for Obama for the stated reason? Somehow, I have a feeling the reaction would be 180 degrees different than a PUMA voting for McCain...


Simple enough, voting for the Demoncratic candidate is voting for your own self-interest, even if you are a Huckabee fan.

The Republicans have done nothing to deserve the votes of any American.

[Kevinroc]

And after months upon months of DNC leaders basically telling us "we don't need you!" after legitimate reservations such as the vote stealing in Michigan makes people like myself much care?

And no. McCain is not "against everything I believe in." And especially not with Joe Biden on the Democratic ticket.

Again with the fear-mongering appeal.

How did Democrats say they don't need you? I've already explained the Michigan thing and you have ignored my explanations.

My mom had many of the same reservations you did and I got into many heated discussions with her about the subject of Obama or Clinton. She was a staunch Clinton supporter and she's going to vote for Obama because she understands that McCain is terrible. He's going to try to outlaw abortion and continue the many failed policies of Bush.

And Biden, who drafted the "violence against women act", most certainly does have more in common with you politically than McCain.

We want a new administration that is built on the hope that we can have a better tomorrow than what McCain represents.

[Samurai]

Simple enough, voting for the Demoncratic candidate is voting for your own self-interest, even if you are a Huckabee fan.

The Republicans have done nothing to deserve the votes of any American.

Are you so confident that you know what's in the best self-interest of every American, that no one could possibly choose to vote for any candidate but your favorite one out of what they feel is either their own self-interest, or less selfishly, the best interests of the country?

Half the country feels that voting for Barack is not in the best interest of either the country or themselves, you know. There are a great many reasons why Obama could and, IMO, would make a horrible President, and/or at least feel McCain would make a better one. Do you deny all of that? Really??

[Sabrinaset]

I think Hillary does play some role to an extent--at the convention, she needs to give her holdout supporters faith in Obama, as difficult as that may be. If she doesn't do this well enough or if she helps sink Obama's candidacy, she can kiss a 2012 run goodbye. She may even threaten her stature in the party and the Clinton legacy, for that matter.

That said, the PUMA crowd and the hillaryis44 crowd are still insufferable and remind me of children who threaten to hold their breaths until mommy or daddy gives them what they want.

I see your point, but Obama's star will increase, and Hillary's will decrease, so to speak. I mean, if Obama was smart, he's pay off Hill's debt in return for Bill NOT campaigning for him. Yeah, he really helped Hill, didn't he? And continuing indications are he's still bitter about Obama winning the nomination. I just don't understand him. Is anyone else seeing a parallel between the Clintons/Obama and Kennedy/Carter in 1980?

But I'm just a "dolt." I mean, after all I was called an old woman, dead ender, clinger, and outside of the "new" party.

Winning friends, Obama style.

Maybe if Hillary had started calling people she disagreed with "chica", she would have won? It's just a thought.

[Samurai]

I see your point, but Obama's star will increase, and Hillary's will decrease, so to speak. I mean, if Obama was smart, he's pay off Hill's debt in return for Bill NOT campaigning for him. Yeah, he really helped Hill, didn't he? And continuing indications are he's still bitter about Obama winning the nomination. I just don't understand him. Is anyone else seeing a parallel between the Clintons/Obama and Kennedy/Carter in 1980?



Maybe if Hillary had started calling people she disagreed with "chica", she would have won? It's just a thought.

Well, Obama is running for Carter's 2nd term...

[Novaya Havoc]

How did Democrats say they don't need you? I've already explained the Michigan thing and you have ignored my explanations.


I'm not bothering to respond to the charges on Michigan, because it is well documented and I went to Michigan delegate slate meetings. I've said what I've said, and I'm not going to scour the internet because you -- like so many Obama supporters -- will never see it. Just more shouts and smears.

As far as not needing us?

Donna Brazile.

[rick]

Are you so confident that you know what's in the best self-interest of every American, that no one could possibly choose to vote for any candidate but your favorite one out of what they feel is either their own self-interest, or less selfishly, the best interests of the country?

Half the country feels that voting for Barack is not in the best interest of either the country or themselves, you know. There are a great many reasons why Obama could and, IMO, would make a horrible President, and/or at least feel McCain would make a better one. Do you deny all of that? Really??


Not at all.

I clearly recognize that there are all sorts of decent people of good will who believe that voting for John MCcain is in their own best interest and in the best interest of the country.

But they are wrong.

Voting for John McCain or any other Republican at this time in American history is a vote against the best interest of the nation and the people living in it.

[KevinTBrown]

No.

Neither candidate has the pledged delegates to be the "clear" nominee.

My Michigan vote was stolen by the DNC RBC based on hypotheticals ("exit polling") but sold that "Michigan counted! It was the best compromise!" You don't compromise 80,000 tangible Hillary Clinton votes, and assume all "Uncommitted" was genuinely "Barack Obama."

How was YOUR vote stolen? If you voted for Clinton, then the delegates assigned her will vote for Clinton at the National Convention.

But, you know, Clinton should have done the honorable and honest thing that all the other Democratic nominees had done: Remove her name from the ballot. Period.

[Kevinroc]

Well, Obama is running for Carter's 2nd term...

Better than McCain running for Bush's 3rd term. :wink:

[Novaya Havoc]

Maybe if Hillary had started calling people she disagreed with "chica", she would have won? It's just a thought.

Oh, chica. Give me pain. Cut me up! I've been naughty!


Ad hominems always cause fail, but I'm more than willing to lobby them myself.

[Novaya Havoc]

How was YOUR vote stolen? If you voted for Clinton, then the delegates assigned her will vote for Clinton at the National Convention.

But, you know, Clinton should have done the honorable and honest thing that all the other Democratic nominees had done: Remove her name from the ballot. Period.

Like I SAID:

RBC gave Obama all Uncommitteds.

THEN the RBC said that based on exit polling, Obama may have done better had he kept his name on the ballot. So they took 4 Hillary delegates from the Hillary/Uncommitted results, and gave those to Obama as well.

Each Hillary delegate approximated 20,000 votes.

4 delegates, 80,000 votes.

Not that hard.

And there was NOTHING honorable or honest about screwing Michigan to curry favor in Iowa. FIVE states broke the calendar rule, after all.

Give me a break.

[the4thpip]

!!!

And, in doing so, you've created a new electoral map! Why, I think that Utah is now trending blue!

smrt!

Then explain to me how exactly you are continuing to "support Hillary"?

By making it more likely for a pro-Life candidate to win? Someone who has promised to only put staunch conservatives on the Supreme court? By deserting Hillary's party?

[Grazzt]

For those that keep saying this, I wonder how you'd react to a Republican who was all for Guiliani, or Huckabee, or Romney, etc, who came on here and said they were so angry McCain was chosen, they're voting for Obama instead....

Would you tell them they are voting against their own best interests and encourage them to vote McCain, since he agrees with their chosen candidate far more than Obama does? Would you say they are being too petty, and are wrong to vote for Obama for the stated reason? Somehow, I have a feeling the reaction would be 180 degrees different than a PUMA voting for McCain...

I think that depends on which candidate. Really, it boils down to: was Republican Candidate X closer politically (on whichever issues are most important to you) to McCain or Obama? If McCain, then you should vote for McCain. If Obama, then you should vote for Obama.

That's what I don't get about the Hillary supporters who are saying they'll vote for McCain. McCain, to the best of my knowledge, is not at all similar to Hillary. Obama is. If there were some other candidate who was both similar to Hillary but not Obama, I could get defecting to vote for that person. But there's not. Are you willing to really determine the future of your country based on spite?

[Samurai]

Better than McCain running for Bush's 3rd term. :wink:

No, it really, REALLY isn't...

[rick]

No, it really, REALLY isn't...

That might make a decent McCain bumper sticker.

[Sabrinaset]

Oh, chica. Give me pain. Cut me up! I've been naughty!

Ad hominems always cause fail, but I'm more than willing to lobby them myself.

You use ad hominem attacks, then cry when they are used against you. You rail against hypotheticals, then use them yourself. When your own words are used against you, you have a hissy fit.

I don't think you've quite realized we're all laughing at your hypocricy.

[Novaya Havoc]

You use ad hominem attacks, then cry when they are used against you. You rail against hypotheticals, then use them yourself. When your own words are used against you, you have a hissy fit.

I don't think you've quite realized we're all laughing at your hypocricy.

!

I can't stand the laughter. I am shamed!

[rick]

!

I can't stand the laughter. I am shamed!


If only that were true. :rolleyes:

[KevinTBrown]

Like I SAID:

RBC gave Obama all Uncommitteds.

THEN the RBC said that based on exit polling, Obama may have done better had he kept his name on the ballot. So they took 4 Hillary delegates from the Hillary/Uncommitted results, and gave those to Obama as well.

Each Hillary delegate approximated 20,000 votes.

4 delegates, 80,000 votes.

Not that hard.

And there was NOTHING honorable or honest about screwing Michigan to curry favor in Iowa. FIVE states broke the calendar rule, after all.

Give me a break.

But YOUR vote wasn't stolen. It still counts as for Hillary. Absolutely nothing changes that fact.

So to say otherwise is just more dramaqueening on your part..... Just how many people need to point this out to you? :rolleyes:

[Novaya Havoc]

But YOUR vote wasn't stolen. It still counts as for Hillary. Absolutely nothing changes that fact.

So to say otherwise is just more dramaqueening on your part..... Just how many people need to point this out to you? :rolleyes:

Was that your argument in 2000, too? "It still counted, just didn't have a tangible result?"

'Kay.

[Grazzt]

Okay, Novaya, and any other Hillary supporters who are thinking about voting for McCain. How will doing so help Hillary in any way?

[Sabrinaset]

McCain, to the best of my knowledge, is not at all similar to Hillary.

They do have similar jowls ...

[Novaya Havoc]

Okay, Novaya, and any other Hillary supporters who are thinking about voting for McCain. How will doing so help Hillary in any way?

Who said it's about helping Hillary?

It's a referendum on the dumb decisions of the DNC. They denigrated their core, working-class base, vilified Hillary, vilified Hillary's supporters, manipulated and stole votes in Michigan -- a swing state! -- and put Joe Biden on the ticket.

That's not change I can believe in. And my vote will not reward that behavior.

It's not about Hillary Clinton.

[Grazzt]

They do have similar jowls ...

OMG! It makes perfect sense! McCain is really Hillary in drag. She thought to corner the election by winning both the Republican and Democratic primaries, and now that she didn't all of her diehard supporters (who were in on the plot) are voting for her male persona.

It makes perfect sense! :tongue:

[Grazzt]

Who said it's about helping Hillary?

It's a referendum on the dumb decisions of the DNC. They denigrated their core, working-class base, vilified Hillary, vilified Hillary's supporters, manipulated and stole votes in Michigan -- a swing state! -- and put Joe Biden on the ticket.

That's not change I can believe in. And my vote will not reward that behavior.

It's not about Hillary Clinton.

So you're willing to punish the DNC by voting against the values you would normally vote for.

Man, that must bite.

[Sabrinaset]

OMG! It makes perfect sense! McCain is really Hillary in drag. She thought to corner the election by winning both the Republican and Democratic primaries, and now that she didn't all of her diehard supporters (who were in on the plot) are voting for her male persona.

It makes perfect sense! :tongue:

LOL Hill is always one step ahead of us! :biggrin:

[rick]

It's not about Hillary Clinton.


We already understood that.

Nice to see you admit it though.

[KevinTBrown]

Was that your argument in 2000, too? "It still counted, just didn't have a tangible result?"

'Kay.

MY vote still counted in 2000, and in 2004 for that matter, but it didn't go to Bush.

Just because MY vote didn't go for the winner, that does not discount it.


Same as yours.

[KevinTBrown]

Who said it's about helping Hillary?

It's a referendum on the dumb decisions of the DNC. They denigrated their core, working-class base, vilified Hillary, vilified Hillary's supporters, manipulated and stole votes in Michigan -- a swing state! -- and put Joe Biden on the ticket.

That's not change I can believe in. And my vote will not reward that behavior.

It's not about Hillary Clinton.

Look, it's simple, it IS all about Hillary for you. Period. For you to say differently now invalidates all your other arguments earlier when you mentioned her name and that she supposedly got screwed, blah, blah. blah...

Your attitude is such: If it's not going to be Hillary as the Democratic nominee, then fuck everyone and fuck America. I'm voing for McCain to get back all of you!! That'll show you! So there, nyah!

[kingdom2000]

Noyova is so cute. You clearly chose to vote for McCain months ago when Hillary lost but now are just making excuses to back it up.

At no time do you mention the issues. You know Iraq, the economy, and so forth. Nope your excuses are "DNC didn't count my vote and doesn't love me" and "Biden is too inside Washington" while mentioning Hillary in every other sentence. So your conclusion of the only proper action is to vote for the even more inside Washington white guy as president. You are so full of shit.

Just say "I want McCain because DNC hurt my feelings and my girl didn't win." Sure I would be embarrased to admit that is why I am voting for someone but you have anyway so just more be direct and upfront about it. Quit with the verbal gymnastics and the other nonsense.

[the4thpip]

Who said it's about helping Hillary?

It's a referendum on the dumb decisions of the DNC. They denigrated their core, working-class base, vilified Hillary, vilified Hillary's supporters, manipulated and stole votes in Michigan -- a swing state! -- and put Joe Biden on the ticket.

That's not change I can believe in. And my vote will not reward that behavior.

It's not about Hillary Clinton.

Will you wake up and realized this is not some kind of game?? This is serious! Act like it!!

[AllisterH]

Noyova is so cute. You clearly chose to vote for McCain months ago when Hillary lost but now are just making excuses to back it up.

At no time do you mention the issues. You know Iraq, the economy, and so forth. Nope your excuses are "DNC didn't count my vote and doesn't love me" and "Biden is too inside Washington" while mentioning Hillary in every other sentence. So your conclusion of the only proper action is to vote for the even more inside Washington white guy as president. You are so full of shit.

Just say "I want McCain because DNC hurt my feelings and my girl didn't win." Sure I would be embarrased to admit that is why I am voting for someone but you have anyway so just more be direct and upfront about it. Quit with the verbal gymnastics and the other nonsense.


You do realize there were MANY on this self same board who were adamant about voting for McCain if Hillary had been the candidate, right?

Still, I agree with you as frankly there is a HUGE/GULF of difference between Obama and McCain compared to Clinton and Obama.

[Grazzt]

You do realize there were MANY on this self same board who were adamant about voting for McCain if Hillary had been the candidate, right?

Out of fairness, how many of those were from the Republican "Bush screwed up so much we're jumping ship" contingent? They'd probably require the least amount of reason to switch back.

[Buzz Dixon]

Of course you do, we all do, all politicians are boobs in one way or another. :smile:Calling politicians breasts, vaginas, or penises is sexist. Kindly refer to them as rectums.

[Buzz Dixon]

Novaya, if you were projecting any more, we could hook you up to a DVD player and show movies in Central Park.Michael P winz da Internetz for the day.

[Buzz Dixon]

Simple enough, voting for the Demoncratic candidate is voting for your own self-interest, even if you are a Huckabee fan.

The Republicans have done nothing to deserve the votes of any American.Rick is first runner up.

[the4thpip]

Novaya just lost something to whine about:

Dems restore full voting rights for Florida and Michigan

One of the most contentious issues from the Democratic primary season has now been settled for good: The party's credentials committee voted unanimously Sunday to restore full voting rights to the convention delegations from Florida and Michigan.

The two states had been sanctioned for holding their primaries earlier than allowed under party rules. Originally, the Democratic National Committee's Rules and Bylaws Committee voted not to seat either delegation at all. But during a heated meeting in May, the RBC softened the punishment, giving each delegate a half-vote.

Earlier this month, however, Barack Obama announced that he supported the idea of seating the full delegations. Today's vote makes that official, which, really, is no big surprise. Most observers had always assumed that no matter what, once someone had locked up the nomination, something would be worked out to allow Florida and Michigan full voting rights.

[the4thpip]

That was from salon.com btw, as is this:

The new McCain campaign ad that employs damaging statements from Hillary Clinton about Barack Obama is creating a stir. Today, the Clinton campaign responded by releasing this four-sentence statement:

Hillary Clinton's support of Barack Obama is clear. She has said repeatedly that Barack Obama and she share a commitment to changing the direction of the country, getting us out of Iraq, and expanding access to health care. John McCain doesn't. It's interesting how those remarks didn't make it into his ad.

[Buzz Dixon]

Half the country feels that voting for Barack is not in the best interest of either the country or themselves, you know.Until election day -- and perhaps not even then -- this is not a factual statement. Assuming a typical 40/40/20 break among party lines and independent voters, we won't really know until after the votes are counted.

[Buzz Dixon]

Not at all.

I clearly recognize that there are all sorts of decent people of good will who believe that voting for John MCcain is in their own best interest and in the best interest of the country.

But they are wrong.

Voting for John McCain or any other Republican at this time in American history is a vote against the best interest of the nation and the people living in it.I think John McCain is a fine choice for president.

I think Barack Obama is even better.

And until the GOP repudiates torture and those who approved of it, I will not vote Republican again.

[Sabrinaset]

Out of fairness, how many of those were from the Republican "Bush screwed up so much we're jumping ship" contingent? They'd probably require the least amount of reason to switch back.

Well, as a part of that contingent, had Hillary gotten the nod from the Dems, I'd either be considering holding my nose and voting McCain (40%), or looking into third-party candidates right about now (60%).

[Buzz Dixon]

Who said it's about helping Hillary?

It's a referendum on the dumb decisions of the DNC. They denigrated their core, working-class base, vilified Hillary, vilified Hillary's supporters, manipulated and stole votes in Michigan -- a swing state! -- and put Joe Biden on the ticket.

That's not change I can believe in. And my vote will not reward that behavior.Waidaminnit -- are you saying you approve of torture? You want to reward the GOP for torturing 25 people to death by this Administration's own admission?!?!?

[AllisterH]

Well, as a part of that contingent, had Hillary gotten the nod from the Dems, I'd either be considering holding my nose and voting McCain (40%), or looking into third-party candidates right about now (60%).

Heh...

So, while I think Novaya Havoc is being an idiot, how come nobody dares challenge Sabrinaset and Dixon on thier constant Hillary bashing?

So, Barack supporters frankly have no reason to get in the gril of Hillary supporters since as shown on this damn same thread, there were Barack supporters who wouldn't support Hillary.

[Charles RB]

Having caught up on the thread, I have come to the following conclusion:

Fuck Hilary Clinton. She lost.

She lost because her campaign was rubbish.

On top of which, if McCain wins, I think the UK should seriously reconsider the "special relationship" at least in the short term.

[the4thpip]

Heh...

So, while I think Novaya Havoc is being an idiot, how come nobody dares challenge Sabrinaset and Dixon on thier constant Hillary bashing?

So, Barack supporters frankly have no reason to get in the gril of Hillary supporters since as shown on this damn same thread, there were Barack supporters who wouldn't support Hillary.

You are missing the point. Sabrina voted for Bush. She is a conservative who is disappointed by the Republican party and only recently quit them. She is not now nor has she ever been a registered Democrat. Barack is a democrat she can vote for, Hillary is not.

Similar with Buzz.

That is quite different from "I always voted Democrat but because Hillary lost, I'm a-breaking all of your toys."

[darknessatnoon]

Waidaminnit -- are you saying you approve of torture? You want to reward the GOP for torturing 25 people to death by this Administration's own admission?!?!?

McCain opposes torture, actually. He was practically the only GOP candidate to mouth off against it. Because, you know, he actually was tortured that time in Vietnam. So I don't see how the current administration's stance on torture is pertinent to the debate.

DISCLAIMER: I mention the above being a complete Stalinist who would die before ever voting for a republican for anything.

[Grazzt]

So, while I think Novaya Havoc is being an idiot, how come nobody dares challenge Sabrinaset and Dixon on thier constant Hillary bashing?

So, Barack supporters frankly have no reason to get in the gril of Hillary supporters since as shown on this damn same thread, there were Barack supporters who wouldn't support Hillary.

There's a reason why we're not. Because it's purely academic at this point. I mean, sure we can debate why in a hypothetical fashion, but since it doesn't matter there's no real reason to debate it. If Hillary had won the nomination, it's entirely possible that Bree or Dixon would be in Novaya's position right now.

[Samurai]

McCain opposes torture, actually. He was practically the only GOP candidate to mouth off against it. Because, you know, he actually was tortured that time in Vietnam. So I don't see how the current administration's stance on torture is pertinent to the debate.

DISCLAIMER: I mention the above being a complete Stalinist who would die before ever voting for a republican for anything.

It's because the Dems are trying to run against Bush, not McCain. They don't like to admit they are very different people.

[Sabrinaset]

Thanks, Pip! He got it right.

Oh, BTW ...

So, while I think Novaya Havoc is being an idiot, how come nobody dares challenge Sabrinaset and Dixon on thier constant Hillary bashing?

And I'm pretty sure we've all called Bree on her Hilary-hate because we wondered 'hey, what with the vitriol?"

...I'm sorry, what were you saying again? :tongue:

[Buzz Dixon]

So, while I think Novaya Havoc is being an idiot, how come nobody dares challenge Sabrinaset and Dixon on thier constant Hillary bashing?Are you referring to moi? I don't think it's Hillary bashing; she clearly has the basic intelligence needed to hold the job of President. She has just made some Very Bad Choices and ran her campaign -- which is the only way of judging how she'd run her Administration -- very poorly.

[KevinTBrown]

It's because the Dems are trying to run against Bush, not McCain. They don't like to admit they are very different people.

"They" don't like to admit....?

The way that reads, at least to me, you're making it sound as if Bush and McCain don't like to admit they're different people.....

[Sabrinaset]

If Hillary had won the nomination, it's entirely possible that Bree or Dixon would be in Novaya's position right now.

No, had Hill won, I wouldn't be crying about how MY PERSON had been screwed out of the nomination because I'm an Independant. And I wouldn't be joining useless little Circle-Jerks like an Obama version of PUMA. I'd say, okay, who's left to vote for? McCain, or a third-party candidate, because Hillary is completely unelectable to me. And I have to confess ... a year or two ago, when MacQuarrie said he'd joined a third party, I thought that was silly, but the more it's rolled about in my empty lil blonde head, the more it makes sense to me.

[Buzz Dixon]

McCain opposes torture, actually. He was practically the only GOP candidate to mouth off against it. Because, you know, he actually was tortured that time in Vietnam. So I don't see how the current administration's stance on torture is pertinent to the debate.

DISCLAIMER: I mention the above being a complete Stalinist who would die before ever voting for a republican for anything.I'm glad McCain has stood against it, and could only wish he would formally denounce it and this Administration's role in it before campaigning this fall. That being said, it is a moral and ethical line I refuse to cross. For McCain to oppose torture and yet rely on the GOP to help him win the presidency without making a repudiation of this Administration's torturers a prerequisite keeps me from voting for him, despite the fact I think he would make a fully capable President if he did manage to get elected.

For the record, I was too young to vote while segregationists were still a power within the Democratic party, but I wouldn't have voted Democrat until they were purged and repudiated.

[Infra-Man]

I see your point, but Obama's star will increase, and Hillary's will decrease, so to speak. I mean, if Obama was smart, he's pay off Hill's debt in return for Bill NOT campaigning for him. Yeah, he really helped Hill, didn't he? And continuing indications are he's still bitter about Obama winning the nomination. I just don't understand him. Is anyone else seeing a parallel between the Clintons/Obama and Kennedy/Carter in 1980?

I see what you mean and I do agree that Obama's star in the party is on the rise while Hillary's is on a bit of a decline, as is the case with anyone who is the party nominee and the person who isn't. It'll be interesting to see what happens if Obama wins in November. I'm assuming that Hillary will take some sort of majority leader position in the Senate (maybe taking the official role from that milquetoast Harry Reid) in preparation for a Gubernatorial run (rumors of New York).

Bill is another animal entirely and a curious problem in the mix (how do you catch a cloud and pin it down?). It's obvious he's still bitter as hell about the primaries and resents Obama for being the nominee. Why else have the two of them not been photographed together or appeared at the same campaign stop? Apparently they've only had two phone calls, which I would guess are mostly comprised of awkward silences, talk of the weather, and lots of clearing of the throat.

While I think Hillary's speech on Tuesday is important, Bill's seems like it'll be even more important. He holds his legacy and Hillary's future political aspirations in his hands that night. If he undercuts Obama, things will get ugly and it will leave a permanent stain on his role and Hillary's role in the party.

[Samurai]

It's because the Dems are trying to run against Bush, not McCain. They don't like to admit they are very different people.

"They" don't like to admit....?

The way that reads, at least to me, you're making it sound as if Bush and McCain don't like to admit they're different people.....

They = the Dems. The Dems are trying to pretend Bush is running, not McCain. A cheap strategy IMO, but it seems to have hoodwinked a fair number of people.

[Kevinroc]

They = the Dems. The Dems are trying to pretend Bush is running, not McCain. A cheap strategy IMO, but it seems to have hoodwinked a fair number of people.

Says the man who just claimed Obama was running for Carter's second term.

(How long has it been since the McCain campaign used that one?)

[Michael P]

I believe McCain has actually switched his position on torture, and come around to saying it's OK if America does it.

[Kevinroc]

http://mccainandbush.com/wp-content/themes/mimbo2.2/images/john-mccain-george-w-bush-hug-lead.jpg

This is really all Obama needs to show from now until Election Day.

[Infra-Man]

John McCain milks his POW status again...

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/210026.php

Couric asked about McCain's answer when Politico inquired about the number of homes he and his wife, Cindy, own. McCain referred the question to his staff, who said he had at least four. Records show the number could be twice that, depending on how you count the family's properties.

"I am grateful for the fact that I have a wonderful life," McCain said. "I spent some years without a kitchen table, without a chair, and I know what it's like to be blessed by the opportunities of this great nation.

Previously it was...

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/08/mccain_camp_responds_on_houses.php

"This is a guy who lived in one house for five and a half years -- in prison," spokesman Brian Rogers told the Washington Post.

and also...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/18/us/politics/18mccain.html

“The insinuation from the Obama campaign that John McCain, a former prisoner of war, cheated is outrageous,” Ms. Wallace said.

And I'm sure there's more. Here's a transcript of an upcoming interview :wink:

REPORTER: Senator McCain, your campaign ads have stated that Senator Obama will raise taxes across the board (by inference), while in reality, his tax increases will only affect the top 1.5% of households in the country rather than all wage earners. How do you explain that?

MCCAIN: POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW. POW POW POW, POW POW POW POW; POW POW POW POW POW--POW POW POW--POW POW POW POW. (laughs) POW POW POW POW celebrity, POW POW POW POW POW POW, but POW POW.

[Charles RB]

I believe McCain has actually switched his position on torture, and come around to saying it's OK if America does it.

That was the impression I'd got.

[Samurai]

I believe McCain has actually switched his position on torture, and come around to saying it's OK if America does it.

That was the impression I'd got.

Well, you're both wrong. He's still dead set against it, always has been. However, in a vote to decide whether to apply the US Army handbook procedures on torture to the CIA, or to have separate rules written for the CIA, McCain sided with having separate rules, because the CIA's role and times/places they encounter enemy combatants tends to be quite different from the Army, so many of the rules and codes wouldn't apply, and there'd be gaps and holes left open in other areas. The CIA has always had separate rules (which doesn't necessarily mean looser rules, just different). During that vote, McCain again spoke up against torture and waterboarding. But the Dems have tried to make it seem as if that vote was a vote for torture, when it wasn't.

[Charles RB]

Ah, so he only voted on torture being fine if the CIA do it rather than the US as a whole.

[LtMarvel]

Are you so confident that you know what's in the best self-interest of every American, that no one could possibly choose to vote for any candidate but your favorite one out of what they feel is either their own self-interest, or less selfishly, the best interests of the country?

Half the country feels that voting for Barack is not in the best interest of either the country or themselves, you know. There are a great many reasons why Obama could and, IMO, would make a horrible President, and/or at least feel McCain would make a better one. Do you deny all of that? Really??
I will admit that voting for McCain could be in the self-interest for those Americans who own more than half a dozen homes...

[rick]

I think John McCain is a fine choice for president.

I think Barack Obama is even better.

And until the GOP repudiates torture and those who approved of it, I will not vote Republican again.


More or less, my point.

[Samurai]

Ah, so he only voted on torture being fine if the CIA do it rather than the US as a whole.

No, wrong. He voted to not use the Army code for the CIA. He did not vote for a more lenient set of standards, but one that applied to the situations the CIA would be involved in, rather than trying to use the Army code for capturing prisoners on the battlefield and such, which doesn't apply at all to the CIA. The whole thing was a ridiculous dog and pony show set up by Congressional Democrats, to play their little games of "gotcha". Sad that people actually fall for it rather than learn the facts.

[kingdom2000]

It's because the Dems are trying to run against Bush, not McCain. They don't like to admit they are very different people.

They use to be different, but that was over 8 years ago. The last 8 years the two are nearly indistiguishable. Not exactly "maverick" behavior. But then we know Repubs have long memories for someone not toeing the party line and OMG back in 1985 or something McCain didn't and so he is such the liberal!!!! :rolleyes:

[kingdom2000]

John McCain milks his POW status again...

He has hit that well so many times it no longer has any meaning to me. He might as well just go "blah blah blah" like in the Peanuts cartoons for all the impact it now has. I just hope his people don't wake up to the overuse as the more they use it, the less power it has and the less likely it will play in people's decisions. As it should, being a POW doesn't give any indication on whether he will be a good president anyway. All it shows is he is a good soldier...but leading is a much different skill set.

[kingdom2000]

Now for those that make election decisions based on issues rather then how their poor little egos where bruised:

Biden seems to be in bed with RIAA, MPAA and against Net Neutrality. Linky (http://gizmodo.com/5041044/vp-candidate-biden-is-no-friend-to-file-sharing-net-neutrality-protection-or-online-privacy)

Any other year, say against the McCain of the ninties vs the McSame of today, that would actually be a deal breaker for me on voting for Obama. Sadly as said before, McSame has made the decision easy and this country simply can't afford four more years.

[Samurai]

They use to be different, but that was over 8 years ago. The last 8 years the two are nearly indistiguishable. Not exactly "maverick" behavior. But then we know Repubs have long memories for someone not toeing the party line and OMG back in 1985 or something McCain didn't and so he is such the liberal!!!! :rolleyes:

You're not basing your claims on anything resembling reality. 10 years ago he had a far more conservative voting record than he does today. He has opposed many of Bush's policies, as I already outlined. Or are you claiming the Bush tax cuts, the Bush nominations where he was part of the Gang of 14, and all the other things all somehow, someway preceded Bush becoming President?

Try actually looking at the historical facts, not your perceptions. While McCain superficially "made nice" with Bush during the 2000 election after McCain lost the primary, he was royally pissed at Bush and many other Republicans. That is when, for the 1st time in his career, he began siding with Democrats so much. He opposed a ton of Bush proposals, and began co-authoring bills with Democrats that were at odds with most other Republicans, such as the Campaign Finance Reform law (a violation of the 1st Amendment to most Republicans), which you should recall first took effect in 2004. He co-authored bills on global warming tax increases, amnesty for illegals, and a bunch of other stuff with the Democrats, while opposing Republican legislation nearly half the time. That's why, by 2004, Democrats like Kerry and Biden were talking about McCain possibly being the running mate for Kerry, or maybe switching parties. McCain voted with the Dems far more solidly and consistently than Lieberman voted with the Republicans.

It has only been in the last year, since the campaign has begun, that McCain made a few feeble and transparent moves toward the right again. But many are still suspicious of him for the last 7 years as a RINO.

[Nick Soapdish]

Heh...

So, while I think Novaya Havoc is being an idiot, how come nobody dares challenge Sabrinaset and Dixon on thier constant Hillary bashing?

So, Barack supporters frankly have no reason to get in the gril of Hillary supporters since as shown on this damn same thread, there were Barack supporters who wouldn't support Hillary.

People have gotten on sabs about it. And honestly, I kind of expect it from two conservatives anyway.

But mostly, I think that nobody's managed to come close to Nova's level of ... well,idiocy doesn't really cover it.

I think that it's one thing to be a poor loser or threaten to be one right after your side loses. But most of them generally get over the disappointment and either suck it up and support the other candidate or just sit it out.

[LtMarvel]

85 % of the time voting with Bush, this is a vote for a 3rd Bush term.

[FalconX2000]

85 % of the time voting with Bush, this is a vote for a 3rd Bush term.

95%.


And guys, just put Novaya on your ignore list. I suspect he's a troll trying to set the forum on fire.

[Samurai]

McCain's exact ratings, and what the numbers mean, varies according to how the standards are set. National Journal is the source I use most often, and it shows that while McCain's lifetime score is 71.8% (a whopping .3% higher than Chuck Hagel, whom some were suggesting might be a decent running mate for Obama), in a year by year analysis it is easy to see him getting vastly more liberal over the past decade.

His score for 2006 was only 56.7%, his 2nd lowest after 2004, when he was only 51.7%. In comparison, Chuck Hagel's lowest score ever was 58.5%, and in 2006 was 72%, far more conservative than McCain! It is only McCain's early years, 1987-1994, that keep his average as high as it is. If you only look at 1995-2006, McCain's average is 64.3%. If you only look at 2004-2006, his average is only 55.8%!

http://www.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/pdf/06republicans.pdf

Then there is the ACU ratings, which give him a lifetime rating (which, as we already know, is buoyed by his conservative early years) of 82.3%. However, it must be noted that that score is the 39th most conservative lifetime rating among current Senators, and in 2006, his ACU rating was only 65%.

So where did McCain differ from the ACU? The big areas were taxes, campaign finance reform, the environment and, most recently, immigration. There was also a smattering of support for trial lawyers; federal intervention in health, education, safety or voting issues; internationalism; and some social issues. He was more consistently conservative on spending and defense issues. The list below summarizes all his votes since 1998 that differed from the ACU's position.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/01/mccains_acu_ratings.html

[FalconX2000]

McCain's exact ratings, and what the numbers mean, varies according to how the standards are set. National Journal is the source I use most often, and it shows that while McCain's lifetime score is 71.8% (a whopping .3% higher than Chuck Hagel, whom some were suggesting might be a decent running mate for Obama), in a year by year analysis it is easy to see him getting vastly more liberal over the past decade.

His score for 2006 was only 56.7%, his 2nd lowest after 2004, when he was only 51.7%. In comparison, Chuck Hagel's lowest score ever was 58.5%, and in 2006 was 72%, far more conservative than McCain! It is only McCain's early years, 1987-1994, that keep his average as high as it is. If you only look at 1995-2006, McCain's average is 64.3%. If you only look at 2004-2006, his average is only 55.8%!

http://www.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/pdf/06republicans.pdf

Then there is the ACU ratings, which give him a lifetime rating (which, as we already know, is buoyed by his conservative early years) of 82.3%. However, it must be noted that that score is the 39th most conservative lifetime rating among current Senators, and in 2006, his ACU rating was only 65%.



http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/01/mccains_acu_ratings.html

As bad as the National Journal and American Thinker (a site which fails to live up to its wonderful name) are, I do agree with Sam here. McCain does have a maverick reputation for a reason.

That said, he has chosen to represent a continuation of Bush in economic and foreign policy. If he's serious about the environmental measures, he would plunge the country into an even bigger national deficit because his tax plan is making the government lose even more money than it currently is.

Either you can trust his word that he means to carry out what he says, which is Bush III, or you can judge that he is untrustworthy and what he says will have little correlation with what he does.

By the way, one thing McCain has been very consistent on is military interventionism for everything outside the USA's borders.

[Kevinroc]

New poll.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/bloomberg/20080824/pl_bloomberg/agab2uwxzxq


Aug. 24 (Bloomberg) -- Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama leads Republican rival John McCain by 49 percent to 43 percent nationwide among registered voters, according to a Washington Post-ABC News poll released today.


The results were little changed from a similar survey in mid-July, the Post said. The latest survey was conducted Aug. 19-22, before Obama announced he had chosen Senator Joe Biden of Delaware to be his vice presidential running mate. Three- quarters of registered voters, in answer to a hypothetical question, said choosing Biden wouldn't influence their vote either way, the Post reported.

The poll also showed that 20 percent of those who supported Senator Hillary Clinton of New York for the Democratic presidential nomination now support Arizona Senator McCain, while 70 percent of her supporters back Obama, the highest level since she suspended her campaign in June, the Post said.

The latest nationwide poll of 1,108 adults included interviews with 916 registered voters. The poll, and the results among registered voters, have a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.

[the4thpip]

(DENVER) — Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, hoping to unite the Democratic Party and cement her future in it, will gather her hard-won primary delegates Wednesday at a reception where she is expected to formally release them to Barack Obama.

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1835639,00.html

[Paul McEnery]

There is, of course, absolutely no reason we should pay attention what the American Conservative Union says about anything.

Such bullshit statistics only reflect what crazy people inside the ACU thinks the difference between liberal and conservative means. Since it doesn't actually mean any such thing, the stats are meaningless.

Far better, I would have thought, for people to look at McCain's actual voting record rather than what some crazy person wants to prove with bogus statistics.

And shockingly, we can:

http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=53270

[KevinTBrown]

Excellent article about Michelle Obama: http://news.yahoo.com/story//ap/20080825/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_michelle_obama

Living in Chicago, and listening to both Barrack and Michelle Obama over the years, I can't help but be proud of them. They worked hard to earn every penny they've gotten. Yes, they're millionaires now (thanks to the $2.3 million book deals), but they're still very much "middle class" in their thinking. Hell, in 2002 their combined income was nearly $260,000.


Now then, I'll admit I was not exactly happy with the Joe Biden pick, but the more I read about him, the more I like him. I didn't realize until this weekend that he's not your "typical" rich Senator. Not to say that $150,000 a year is chump change, but it's a far cry from what McCain makes or has. And it's certainly more in line with what a good portion of what Americans earn a year. And, so far, I'm enjoying his candor. This just might work out after all.


Now I cannot wait to see any Republican say once again how "elitest" Obama is.....

[Charles RB]

one that applied to the situations the CIA would be involved in

It's amazing how much that sounds like code for "they should be allowed to torture because their situations are big and scary!".

I may be biased by the fact they've been repeatedly involved in it.

[the4thpip]

http://mccainandbush.com/wp-content/themes/mimbo2.2/images/john-mccain-george-w-bush-hug-lead.jpg

This is really all Obama needs to show from now until Election Day.

It's in the new, soulful ad: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=2X9LypdiQFo

[Samurai]

Excellent article about Michelle Obama: http://news.yahoo.com/story//ap/20080825/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_michelle_obama

Living in Chicago, and listening to both Barrack and Michelle Obama over the years, I can't help but be proud of them. They worked hard to earn every penny they've gotten. Yes, they're millionaires now (thanks to the $2.3 million book deals), but they're still very much "middle class" in their thinking. Hell, in 2002 their combined income was nearly $260,000.


Now then, I'll admit I was not exactly happy with the Joe Biden pick, but the more I read about him, the more I like him. I didn't realize until this weekend that he's not your "typical" rich Senator. Not to say that $150,000 a year is chump change, but it's a far cry from what McCain makes or has. And it's certainly more in line with what a good portion of what Americans earn a year. And, so far, I'm enjoying his candor. This just might work out after all.


Now I cannot wait to see any Republican say once again how "elitest" Obama is.....

Newsflash: You can be dirt poor and homeless and still be a bigoted elitist who thinks he's better than everyone else, and you can be incredibly rich but still humble. "He only got $2.3 million on a book deal, and only made $260,000 last year" doesn't do a thing to dispel the fact that he's elitist, even if you feel those numbers somehow make him "middle class". We know from his own tax proposals that he himself thinks he's "rich"...

[the4thpip]

Newsflash: You can be dirt poor and homeless and still be a bigoted elitist who thinks he's better than everyone else, and you can be incredibly rich but still humble. "He only got $2.3 million on a book deal, and only made $260,000 last year" doesn't do a thing to dispel the fact that he's elitist, even if you feel those numbers somehow make him "middle class". We know from his own tax proposals that he himself thinks he's "rich"...

I suggest you look up the meaning of the word "fact."

http://faculty.ksu.edu.sa/Magda/PublishingImages/Oxford%20Dictionary.jpg

[Joe Rice]

Newsflash: You can be dirt poor and homeless and still be a bigoted elitist who thinks he's better than everyone else, and you can be incredibly rich but still humble. "He only got $2.3 million on a book deal, and only made $260,000 last year" doesn't do a thing to dispel the fact that he's elitist, even if you feel those numbers somehow make him "middle class". We know from his own tax proposals that he himself thinks he's "rich"...

He said "middle class in their thinking." Stop lying, stop misrepresenting, or at the very least stop misreading.

[KevinTBrown]

Newsflash: You can be dirt poor and homeless and still be a bigoted elitist who thinks he's better than everyone else, and you can be incredibly rich but still humble. "He only got $2.3 million on a book deal, and only made $260,000 last year" doesn't do a thing to dispel the fact that he's elitist, even if you feel those numbers somehow make him "middle class". We know from his own tax proposals that he himself thinks he's "rich"...

:rolleyes:

www.rif.org


As Joe pointed out: I said, "middle class in their thinking."

[section 8]

They use to be different, but that was over 8 years ago. The last 8 years the two are nearly indistiguishable. Not exactly "maverick" behavior. But then we know Repubs have long memories for someone not toeing the party line and OMG back in 1985 or something McCain didn't and so he is such the liberal!!!! :rolleyes:


well more like the past four years, but that's neither here nor there

It is true, McCain sounds more like Bush each time he opens his mouth. this has cost him a lot of my respect.

I dont know if he's senile, or kissing up to the party, or whatever.

[Buzz Dixon]

McCain and Obama are both rich.

Obama has only one house, however. McCain doesn't know how many he has, but the news agencies helping him find out say there are at least seven.

[Major Comma]

Section 8 , Mccain is trying to win an election.
that requires telling your base what they want to hear .

[king mob]

Democrats are hoping that liberal icon Senator Ted Kennedy will speak at the party convention in Denver tonight and rally the party faithful behind nominee Barack Obama.

Regardless of whether the Massachusetts senator, who is suffering from brain cancer, receives his doctors' approval to make an appearance, the Democratic party will honour him with a video tribute, and his niece Caroline Kennedy will make a speech praising him.

Kennedy, who was afflicted with brain cancer this spring, travelled to Denver on Sunday, the Associated Press reported, and Democratic party activists hope he is well enough lift spirits by showing his face in the convention hall or attending some of the festivities surrounding the meeting.

His immune system has been weakened by the course of chemotherapy, and his doctors fear an appearance at the packed convention could endanger his health. But he has prepared a speech and badly wants to deliver it, the Boston Globe reported.

Kennedy is wildly popular among Democrats, who admire him for his championing of liberal causes including expanded healthcare.

Kennedy also symbolises a bygone era of Democratic dominance in Washington.

Democratic leaders hope that a focus on Kennedy will unite a party that has lately been riven with renewed tension among supporters of Hillary Clinton, whom nominee Barack Obama beat after a bitter, 16-month long primary fight.

The eight-minute celebratory video, to be shown tonight, was produced by documentary filmmakers Ken Burns and Mark Herzog, and features the senator and his wife Victoria, and interviews with prominent Democrats and others.

Caroline Kennedy, who endorsed Obama in January, will speak at the podium about the senator's career and his "future plans in the United States Senate", the Democratic party said in a news release.

The Massachusetts senator is a scion of the legendary American political family that saw two promising young Democratic politicians assassinated in the 1960s. He is the second most senior member of the Senate and among the most influential backers of Obama during the long primary campaign.

Kennedy's brother John was elected president in 1960 and killed in November 1963 as he kicked off his re-election bid. Another brother Bobby, a US senator from New York and attorney general under John Kennedy, was killed in Los Angeles during his 1968 campaign for president.

Kennedy was elected to the US senate in 1962, taking over John's seat. He sought to carry the family baton to the White House in 1980, but his challenge to incumbent Democratic president Jimmy Carter failed.

In January, Kennedy shook up the Democratic primary race by endorsing Obama, snubbing Clinton. He said Obama would be "a president who refuses to be trapped in the patterns of the past," and said the Illinois senator "sees the world clearly without being cynical".

The nod was one of the most prized endorsements of the campaign, and leant establishment backing to Obama, a relative newcomer to Washington.

The senator suffered a seizure in May and was soon thereafter diagnosed with a malignant brain tumour. Politicians of all stripes were saddened by the news.

Early on in his treatment he was photographed with his family and appeared in good spirits, although lately he has receded from the public eye, prompting concerns about his health.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/25/democrats2008.uselections2008

[FalconX2000]

It's in the new, soulful ad: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=2X9LypdiQFo

I like the visuals, but the song is too pleasent. Especially since it asks "do we really want 4 more years of the same old tune?"

Newsflash: You can be dirt poor and homeless and still be a bigoted elitist who thinks he's better than everyone else, and you can be incredibly rich but still humble. "He only got $2.3 million on a book deal, and only made $260,000 last year" doesn't do a thing to dispel the fact that he's elitist, even if you feel those numbers somehow make him "middle class". We know from his own tax proposals that he himself thinks he's "rich"...

Before I tear into your elitist argument, I'd like to hear your definition of what an elitist is.

And you know damn well KevinTBrown never said they had a middle class income. He said they have middle-class thinking. You don't need to look at Obama' tax plans. Whenever he talks about rich you know he is aware he's in the top 10% of America's income bracket.

[FalconX2000]

Excellent article about Michelle Obama: http://news.yahoo.com/story//ap/20080825/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_michelle_obama

Living in Chicago, and listening to both Barrack and Michelle Obama over the years, I can't help but be proud of them. They worked hard to earn every penny they've gotten. Yes, they're millionaires now (thanks to the $2.3 million book deals), but they're still very much "middle class" in their thinking. Hell, in 2002 their combined income was nearly $260,000.


Now then, I'll admit I was not exactly happy with the Joe Biden pick, but the more I read about him, the more I like him. I didn't realize until this weekend that he's not your "typical" rich Senator. Not to say that $150,000 a year is chump change, but it's a far cry from what McCain makes or has. And it's certainly more in line with what a good portion of what Americans earn a year. And, so far, I'm enjoying his candor. This just might work out after all.


Now I cannot wait to see any Republican say once again how "elitest" Obama is.....


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/25/AR2008082500779.html

Washington Post dug up an old article about Biden. It shows how he responded immediately after dropping out of his presidential race in the 80s.

[section 8]

Section 8 , Mccain is trying to win an election.
that requires telling your base what they want to hear .

I dont recall Regan making an ass of himself all the time.

I mean he WAS an ass, but he didn't always look like one.

[Sabrinaset]

A *LOT* of election news now that the Dem Convention is about to kick off (some more amusing than serious, but what the heck!) ...

Democrats Begin Convention With Most Advantages Since Watergate (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=auFdzt9Pbsrk&refer=worldwide)

Obama dilemma as celebrities descend on Denver (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080825152627.mcah8kx1&show_article=1)

Barack Obama's status as the rock-star candidate of the US election campaign is highlighted yet again with an array of celebrities descending on Denver for the Democratic Convention. Yet as Hollywood prepares to decamp to Colorado for a series of VIP events held on the sidelines of the convention, presidential hopeful Obama is likely to keep a careful distance from the glitterati, analysts say.

Republican rival John McCain's campaign has recently sought to turn Obama's surging popularity into a weakness, scoring some direct hits by likening the Democrat to gossip-page perennials such as Paris Hilton and Britney Spears. Because of this, analysts say, Obama will be leery of campaigning alongside stars from the entertainment world who have rushed to voice their support.

"If I were Barack Obama right now I would be hoping against hope that the celebrities would just keep quiet about me," said Robert Thompson, pop-culture expert and professor of television at the University of Syracuse, New York.

"It's true that after McCain's 'celebrity' ad, every single Hollywood person who comes out on the Obama bandwagon is more evidence for McCain's argument that he is a celebrity."
However celebrities are already alert to the possibility that turning the full wattage of their star power on Obama could be counter-productive.

Someone better tell Madonna! (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080825004450.1xh64lbc&show_article=1)

Madonna's apparent swipe at McCain came during a performance of the song "Get Stupid", when the Republican contender's image was flashed up alongside images of destruction and global warming as well as Hitler and Mugabe.

Towards the end of the song, pictures of Beatles star John Lennon, former US vice-president Al Gore, Indian Mahatma Gandhi and McCain's Democrat rival Barack Obama appeared.

Obama camp downplays Clinton backers at convention (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080825/D92PA6L01.html)

Barack Obama's campaign dismissed concerns about the impact of die-hard supporters of Hillary Rodham Clinton on the choreographed show of unity Democrats were opening Monday at their nominating convention.

Opening night at the Pepsi Center, the main venue for the four-day Democratic National Convention, aimed to tell the Illinois senator's personal story to the millions of voters nationwide who will begin tuning in to the presidential campaign. Obama's wife, Michelle, was the evening's keynote speaker.

An emotional highlight was expected to come with a video tribute to Sen. Edward M. Kennedy. The liberal stalwart was diagnosed in May with a malignant brain tumor and has had surgery and a six-week course of chemotherapy and radiation.

Behind the scenes, however, polls showing significant Clinton support still being denied to Obama and pro-Clinton demonstrations at offsite venues were creating a different kind of anticipation. Clinton has backed Obama and was scheduled to speak Tuesday night.

Clinton supporter says she was called 'Uncle Tom' (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D92PDQ0O0&show_article=1)

MSNBC: The official network of the Obama campaign? (http://www.politico.com/blogs/michaelcalderone/0808/Rendell_Obama_coverage_was_embarrassing.html) The press, biased? Say it isn't so!

Clinton delegates back Obama, but poll shows concern (http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/25/america/25delegatesweb.php)

Tensions boil between Obama-Clinton camps (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12782.html)

Now, this part is interesting ...

Some senior Obama supporters are irritated at how they perceive the Clintons fanned — or at a minimum failed to douse — stories that she was not even vetted as a possible vice presidential nominee. This is because she told Obama she preferred not to go through the rigorous process of document production unless she was really a serious contender, an Obama associate noted.

One senior Obama supporter said the Clinton associates negotiating on her behalf act like “Japanese soldiers in the South Pacific still fighting after the war is over.”

Hey, guys ... does this remind you of anyone? :evilsmile:

[Novaya Havoc]

95%.


And guys, just put Novaya on your ignore list. I suspect he's a troll trying to set the forum on fire.

LOL!

Yes. I'm one of the top CBR posters and share a view on Palin no one -- no one! -- can refute, and I'm trying to set CBR on fire.

Palin would rock that ticket. And it is truth.

[the4thpip]

LOL!

Yes. I'm one of the top CBR posters and share a view on Palin no one -- no one! -- can refute, and I'm trying to set CBR on fire.

Palin would rock that ticket. And it is truth.

Did you hear that your cheating State is getting its full delegates after all, Ms. Top CBR Poster?

[Novaya Havoc]

Did you hear that your cheating State is getting its full delegates after all, Ms. Top CBR Poster?

Oh, yes!

Since Obama is now "THE" nominee -- even though he technically is not -- and already had delegates stolen to embolden his "insumountable" count, why -- sure -- let's count Michigan! In full! You mattered!

Cheap pander, just like the heinous RBC decision. I voted Kerry in '04. This year? McCain. Don't mess around with Michigan!

[the4thpip]

Oh, yes!

Since Obama is now "THE" nominee -- even though he technically is not -- and already had delegates stolen to embolden his "insumountable" count, why -- sure -- let's count Michigan! In full! You mattered!

Cheap pander, just like the heinous RBC decision. I voted Kerry in '04. This year? McCain. Don't mess around with Michigan!

You got something on your lip there. Looks like foam...

[Kevinroc]

Oh, yes!

Since Obama is now "THE" nominee -- even though he technically is not -- and already had delegates stolen to embolden his "insumountable" count, why -- sure -- let's count Michigan! In full! You mattered!

Cheap pander, just like the heinous RBC decision. I voted Kerry in '04. This year? McCain. Don't mess around with Michigan!

Obama is the nominee, legally and technically. I know it is easier to claim Obama "stole" the nomination than it is to just accept that Hillary Clinton ran a shitty campaign and lost. You can stop with your fake outrage now.

[Sabrinaset]

How does one become a top poster at CBR? Who's in charge of determining that? Is this like another COtM award I am not hep to? :confused:

[the4thpip]

How does one become a top poster at CBR? Who's in charge of determining that? Is this like another COtM award I am not hep to? :confused:

Note to PUMAs:
Trying to fuck your country up the ass does not make you a "top."

[Infra-Man]

LOL!

Yes. I'm one of the top CBR posters and share a view on Palin no one -- no one! -- can refute, and I'm trying to set CBR on fire.

Palin would rock that ticket. And it is truth.

So what you're saying is that Hillary Clinton supporters will simply vote for someone with a vagina regardless of the issues? If that's the case, that's one of the dumbest reasons to vote for someone.

Yeah, personality and packaging play a part in elections, but if your primary reason for voting for someone is not based on political policy, you're a fucking mook. Period. Full stop.

[Michael P]

Note to PUMAs:
Trying to fuck your country up the ass does not make you a "top."

*hands pip the Internet*

I believe this is yours, sir.

[Matt Doc Martin]

LOL!

Yes. I'm one of the top CBR posters and share a view on Palin no one -- no one! -- can refute, and I'm trying to set CBR on fire.

Palin would rock that ticket. And it is truth.

If posting insane and illogical rants made someone "tops" on this or any board, we'd welcome SkrullEmperor Jason and jbolt back with open arms. You are a dipshit that is one step ahead of an average monkey as you can string keystrokes in a cohesive if utterly pointless sentence.

Or shall I point out any number of other people with high post counts and low IQ's?

[Matt Doc Martin]

How does one become a top poster at CBR? Who's in charge of determining that? Is this like another COtM award I am not hep to? :confused:

You could post random bits of info about Miley Cyrus and be far more useful to this board than Novaya.

Of course, you are capable of actually presenting "facts" and "logic", so you are far ahead anyhow.

[Sabrinaset]

And now, some more convention news!

This one could be about the People United for post-Menopausal Activists...

Clinton Advisers Skipping Obama Speech (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/08/25/clinton_adviser_to_skip_town_b.html)

A number of Sen. Hillary Clinton's top advisers will not be staying in Denver long enough to hear Barack Obama accept the nomination for president, according to sources familiar with their schedules.

Clinton will deliver her speech Tuesday night. She will hold a private meeting with her top financial supporters Wednesday at noon, and will thank her delegates at an event that afternoon. Former president Bill Clinton will speak that night. Several of Hillary Clinton's supporters are then planning to leave town. Among them, Terry McAuliffe, Clinton's campaign chairman, and longtime supporters Steve Rattner and Maureen White. Another of Clinton's top New York fundraisers, Alan Patricof, did not make the trip to Denver.

Robert Zimmerman, a Clinton supporter who is trying now to navigate between the two camps, will be staying for Obama's speech. But he said in an interview that it would be unrealistic to expect there would not still be some tension between the two camps -- he noted that the same was true with supporters of Gary Hart and, to a lesser extent, Howard Dean.

"This convention provides a very important opportunity for the Obama campaign to bond with the constituencies that supported Hillary Clinton," Zimmerman said. "It's not about Barack or Hillary. It's about bringing in the people here who voted for Hillary Rodham Clinton. Senator Obama and Senator Biden are, without question, qualified to do that."

Also, apparently the NYT is working on a story about how at the convention, a celebration of Ted Kennedy is being done specifically to lessen the spotlight on the Clintons. Hmm...

[Grazzt]

Or shall I point out any number of other people with high post counts and low IQ's?

*runs away before Matt can point at me*

:redface:

[kingdom2000]

Section 8 , Mccain is trying to win an election.
that requires telling your base what they want to hear .

Last time people assumed that they elected Bush.

[kingdom2000]

Oh, yes!

Since Obama is now "THE" nominee -- even though he technically is not -- and already had delegates stolen to embolden his "insumountable" count, why -- sure -- let's count Michigan! In full! You mattered!

Cheap pander, just like the heinous RBC decision. I voted Kerry in '04. This year? McCain. Don't mess around with Michigan!

Ah poor little Novaya's feelings are hurt. Go join your friends and pout.
Here is a "Pout for Palin" sign for you to carry with you too.

[kingdom2000]

Obama is the nominee, legally and technically. I know it is easier to claim Obama "stole" the nomination than it is to just accept that Hillary Clinton ran a shitty campaign and lost. You can stop with your fake outrage now.

Yeah no kidding. I actually voted for Hillary and as the campaign went on I regretted the decision. What stuck in my gut was her complete inability to admit she makes wrong decisions (say on Iraq). After 8 years of a President that refused to see any perspective but his own, surrounded himself with yes men, and never changed his mind on anything - the LAST thing this country needed was another egomaniac that shows the same tendancies. Just because she is a woman does't forgive that level of piss poor leadership.

[Matt Doc Martin]

Last time people assumed that they elected Bush.

right

Yeah no kidding. I actually voted for Hillary and as the campaign went on I regretted the decision. What stuck in my gut was her complete inability to admit she makes wrong decisions (say on Iraq). After 8 years of a President that refused to see any perspective but his own, surrounded himself with yes men, and never changed his mind on anything - the LAST thing this country needed was another egomaniac that shows the same tendancies. Just because she is a woman does't forgive that level of piss poor leadership.

fucking

on!

[Charles RB]

I voted Kerry in '04. This year? McCain.

Then you're a complete moron.

[Paul McEnery]

Note to PUMAs:
Trying to fuck your country up the ass does not make you a "top."

Can you be a top if you're an ass?

[Paul McEnery]

Ah poor little Novaya's feelings are hurt. Go join your friends and pout.
Here is a "Pout for Palin" sign for you to carry with you too.

Although Michael Palin would be an excellent choice.

[Paul McEnery]

How does one become a top poster at CBR? Who's in charge of determining that? Is this like another COtM award I am not hep to? :confused:

It's a typo. He means post-it.

[Trench]

I gotta ask.

(Yeah, I lurk. Big Political junkie but I mostly just lurk on all the political threads.)

What would people do if their guy didn't win? What would you McCain supporters do if Obama won? What would you Obama supporters do if McCain wins? And let's just jettison any "There's no way X can win" arguments and just assume your horse didn't win.

[Buzz Dixon]

I think McCain will be a capable president. My quarrel is with the GOP for not denouncing those who authorized torture.

[Sabrinaset]

I gotta ask.

(Yeah, I lurk. Big Political junkie but I mostly just lurk on all the political threads.)

What would people do if their guy didn't win? What would you McCain supporters do if Obama won? What would you Obama supporters do if McCain wins? And let's just jettison any "There's no way X can win" arguments and just assume your horse didn't win.

You know, when you think about it, what's the absolute WORST that can happen this time around? If McCain gets elected, the country will STILL improve marginally. Now granted, it could improve even more, but still ... There's no way it could be as bad under McCain as W. So either way, things are looking up. It'll either get a little bit better, or a lot better, but it will still get better.

I assume you're recalling those stories from 2004? Democrats seeing shrinks because Kerry lost, the syndrome being known as Post Election Selection Trauma (PEST)?

[Paul McEnery]

You know, when you think about it, what's the absolute WORST that can happen this time around? If McCain gets elected, the country will STILL improve marginally.

You think?

I don't think there'll be any improvement at all, and McCain's ignorance in the Middle East threatens to be even more dangerous; and it's very likely he'll have to appoint two Supreme Court judges.

[Trench]

I don't think there'll be any improvement at all, and McCain's ignorance in the Middle East threatens to be even more dangerous; and it's very likely he'll have to appoint two Supreme Court judges.

Gotta admit, I'm almost a single issue voter given how much impact Supreme Court appointments have on the country.


I assume you're recalling those stories from 2004? Democrats seeing shrinks because Kerry lost, the syndrome being known as Post Election Selection Trauma (PEST)?

Mostly curiosity. I didn't know anybody that had to see shrinks. But I'll admit I called into work because I stayed up all night waiting for election results to roll in. A buddy of mine literally put his money where his mouth was and didn't move back to America after the 2004 election. He's happily married and content in Japan now. (A tad extreme of a reaction, in my opinion, but I give him credit for sticking to his guns.)

[KevinTBrown]

I gotta ask.

(Yeah, I lurk. Big Political junkie but I mostly just lurk on all the political threads.)

What would people do if their guy didn't win? What would you McCain supporters do if Obama won? What would you Obama supporters do if McCain wins? And let's just jettison any "There's no way X can win" arguments and just assume your horse didn't win.

What would happen if McCain wins?

Let me put it to you this way: My wife and I already have a vacation planned for Cancun the end of January. Now then, I have a few brochures about property for sale down there and in Cozumel and we'll probably check them out when we're there. Now whether we actually DO go through with moving to Mexico is rather iffy (hell, it's extremely iffy and probably 10% chance of happening), but it is something we have considered. During the last election ('04), we were in Cozumel and half thought about not coming back then, but we had too many things to consider at that point (such as family matters) and we were no where near serious about it.

I'm not going to be one of those who makes "idle threats" about moving out of the country and never follow through (i.e. many Hollywood types in '04). However, it's been seriously discussed at length and we'll take a very long, hard look at our financials then.

I believe in this country and I love this country, but if it sees fit to elect McCain, it's a country I no longer would wish to live in. THAT is how much McCain scares me. He will drive this country into a deep depression we may never get out of..... All for the sake of oil and "winning" a war.

[kingdom2000]

You think?

I don't think there'll be any improvement at all, and McCain's ignorance in the Middle East threatens to be even more dangerous; and it's very likely he'll have to appoint two Supreme Court judges.

Also he has been making the exact same noises about Iran that Bush made about Iraq in 2000. The last time people said "naw he will not go to war with Iraq". Do you really want to risk the exact same thing again with McSame?

[Samurai]

If posting insane and illogical rants made someone "tops" on this or any board, we'd welcome SkrullEmperor Jason and jbolt back with open arms. You are a dipshit that is one step ahead of an average monkey as you can string keystrokes in a cohesive if utterly pointless sentence.

Or shall I point out any number of other people with high post counts and low IQ's?

You know, it's posts like these that vindicate my contention that if you don't conform to the local group-think around here, even if you are a fellow liberal and Democrat like Novaya, you'll catch shit for it. (It tends to be even worse if you aren't a fellow lib, though.)

Sorry, but it isn't "insane and illogical" to vote for McCain, no matter how much you believe it. Novaya is free to choose who to vote for, andit's not your job or anyone else's here to give that choice the stamp of approval.

There are some Republicans around here (like Buzz Dixon) who have stated that they are voting for Obama, usually for some reason having to do with Bush, not McCain. I think those are silly reasons, but you don't see me constantly harping on Buzz post after post after post, chiding him for voting against his interests, etc. I disagree with his choice and his reasoning, but it's ultimately his decision to make. I hope he comes to his senses before election day, but if not, in the grand scheme of things, it's just 1 vote (but it's his to cast).

[Paul McEnery]

if you don't conform to the group-think, you'll catch shit for it.

Once again, the inverted logic of the fascist lickspittle is sooo telling.

[Samurai]

Once again, the inverted logic of the fascist lickspittle is sooo telling.

Ah, ok, if that was inverted logic, let me invert it again so you can understand it:

"You'll catch shit for it if you don't conform to the group-think around here."


There you go, happy to oblige!

[Paul McEnery]

"You'll catch shit for it if you don't conform to the group-think around here."



Fascinating, isn't it.

It's like cats. You can show a baby its own reflection, and it catches on right away. But a cat has a brain the size of a walnut, and there's no room for self-awareness in it.

[Charles RB]

Sorry, but it isn't "insane and illogical" to vote for McCain, no matter how much you believe it.

Novaya's doing it because his chosen candidate didn't win. And that's it. It's not because McCain's policies represent Novaya's views (previous voting habit disproves that), it's solely because Hilary didn't win and this upsets him.

And that IS illogical.

There are some Republicans around here (like Buzz Dixon) who have stated that they are voting for Obama, usually for some reason having to do with Bush, not McCain. I think those are silly reasons

I'm not surprised you think opposition to torture is a silly reason to not vote for the party that's fine with torture and has allowed it repeatedly.

[Samurai]

Novaya's doing it because his chosen candidate didn't win. And that's it. It's not because McCain's policies represent Novaya's views (previous voting habit disproves that), it's solely because Hilary didn't win and this upsets him.

And that IS illogical.



I'm not surprised you think opposition to torture is a silly reason to not vote for the party that's fine with torture and has allowed it repeatedly.

Because A) the Republican party is NOT "fine with torture", B) McCain personally is and always has been against torture, and C), McCain is almost definitly far closer to Buzz's morals and beliefs than Obama is, from what I know of Buzz. Therefor, Buzz is voting against his own beliefs and interests in order to spite someone who isn't even running, when he could vote for someone who actually has been tortured, and is thus probably even more against it than Buzz. That's illogical.

[Samurai]

New ad featuring Obama's half-brother George Obama...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auG9qsZpL6o

[LtMarvel]

New ad featuring Obama's half-brother George Obama...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auG9qsZpL6o
Wow, Mrs. McCain doesn't acknowledge either of her half-sisters and McCain is talking about Obama's half brother....

[Matt Doc Martin]

You know, it's posts like these that vindicate my contention that if you don't conform to the local group-think around here, even if you are a fellow liberal and Democrat like Novaya, you'll catch shit for it. (It tends to be even worse if you aren't a fellow lib, though.)

Sorry, but it isn't "insane and illogical" to vote for McCain, no matter how much you believe it. Novaya is free to choose who to vote for, andit's not your job or anyone else's here to give that choice the stamp of approval.

There are some Republicans around here (like Buzz Dixon) who have stated that they are voting for Obama, usually for some reason having to do with Bush, not McCain. I think those are silly reasons, but you don't see me constantly harping on Buzz post after post after post, chiding him for voting against his interests, etc. I disagree with his choice and his reasoning, but it's ultimately his decision to make. I hope he comes to his senses before election day, but if not, in the grand scheme of things, it's just 1 vote (but it's his to cast).


Since when do I conform to anyone or anything?

Don't be a moron.

[Charles RB]

Because A) the Republican party is NOT "fine with torture"

So why's it going on then, and has been for years in a Republican government? Either they're fine with it or they're apathetic about the whole issue.

And you personally have come out in favour of it. Remember trying to make it out like only terrorists have been tortured by going "oh, but THESE three guys got waterboarded and they're terrorists so IT'S FINE!"?

[kingdom2000]

You know, it's posts like these that vindicate my contention that if you don't conform to the local group-think around here, even if you are a fellow liberal and Democrat like Novaya, you'll catch shit for it. (It tends to be even worse if you aren't a fellow lib, though.)

Sorry, but it isn't "insane and illogical" to vote for McCain, no matter how much you believe it. Novaya is free to choose who to vote for, andit's not your job or anyone else's here to give that choice the stamp of approval.

While true its just annoying when people can't articulate why they are voting for someone beyond trivialities that do not mean anything. If someone said "I am voting for Obama because he bowls as bad as I do" i hope people have enough sense to go "you can't be serious". Novaya's decisions comes down to "my feelings where hurt cause my girl didn't win." Yeah redicule is deserved.

As for a decision that is based on voting against someone that is valid as long as its based on something at least that seems concrete. I am voting against McCain more then voting for Obama because I think McCain is too much Bush (among other things). Obviousily you disagree with that notion of McSame. But at least its a concrete reason that can be attacked and defended as all see fit. You and Bri have solid reasons for your voting choices (even we don't agree with them). Again can discuss and debate but at least have a foundation on somethig relevant.

Its not just "uh he is a repub (or Dem) and thats all i need to know" which seems to be the source of most people's decision making. Or worse "he seems live an average joe". Or he played a sport. Etc etc. So yeah some of it is "how dare you vote McCain" but most of it seems to be disgust at how people make their decisions on factors of no consequence.

[kingdom2000]

Wow, Mrs. McCain doesn't acknowledge either of her half-sisters and McCain is talking about Obama's half brother....

Shh Mrs. McCain is off limits but do you have dirt on Michelle, its open season her. Its real simple, Obama's family is wide open and McCain's is off limits.

[Samurai]

Wow, Mrs. McCain doesn't acknowledge either of her half-sisters and McCain is talking about Obama's half brother....

That is not a McCain ad, did you listen to the end? It's an independent ad.

[KevinTBrown]

That is not a McCain ad, did you listen to the end? It's an independent ad.

A.K.A. It's bullshit.


:rolleyes:

[Samurai]

A.K.A. It's bullshit.


:rolleyes:

I expect you to say the same about all the MoveOn.org and other 527 ads for Obama...

[Trench]

I'm actually rather interested in hearing the extreme posters on either side of the barrel as to what their reactions would be if their unwanted candidate wins. ie, Samurai and Novaya, what would you do or think if Obama won?

And as much as my own personal politics don't jive with Samurai's, I agree with him. If he or anyone else wants to vote for McCain after weighing the evidence as it is, then so be it. Their vote, their call.

And yeah, I know it's a political thread and debate is par for the course and I'm comparatively new guy- but this is why I don't often participate in the threads.

[rick]

Because A) the Republican party is NOT "fine with torture",


That is just a laughable statement.

Were you able to keep a straight face while you typed that?

[kingdom2000]

I expect you to say the same about all the MoveOn.org and other 527 ads for Obama...

I will....all political ads are bullshit regardless of camp derived from. Plus they are boring.

[kingdom2000]

I'm actually rather interested in hearing the extreme posters on either side of the barrel as to what their reactions would be if their unwanted candidate wins. ie, Samurai and Novaya, what would you do or think if Obama won?

And as much as my own personal politics don't jive with Samurai's, I agree with him. If he or anyone else wants to vote for McCain after weighing the evidence as it is, then so be it. Their vote, their call.

And yeah, I know it's a political thread and debate is par for the course and I'm comparatively new guy- but this is why I don't often participate in the threads.

Nothing will happen except a lot of moaning and groaning. This myth of American's diving for the border is just that. Probably see a few "Ha-Has" from Sam perhaps but not a whole lot will happen. Personally I will just duck for cover and hope that Sam's belief that McSame isn't McSame turns out to be true (even though I don't think it is). Oh and when McCain starts a war with Iran I will be the first to say "told you so."

[Trench]

Nothing will happen except a lot of moaning and groaning. This myth of American's diving for the border is just that. Probably see a few "Ha-Has" from Sam perhaps but not a whole lot will happen. Personally I will just duck for cover and hope that Sam's belief that McSame isn't McSame turns out to be true (even though I don't think it is). Oh and when McCain starts a war with Iran I will be the first to say "told you so."

Well, as I said, I know someone that did exactly that. And a few friends that know others that did exactly that. Then again, I'm in a very arty lefty bubble so my experience likely isn't comparable to others.

[Paul McEnery]

That is not a McCain ad, did you listen to the end? It's an independent ad.

Good god, do you really believe this bullshit?

[Paul McEnery]

I'm actually rather interested in hearing the extreme posters on either side of the barrel as to what their reactions would be if their unwanted candidate wins. ie, Samurai and Novaya, what would you do or think if Obama won?

And as much as my own personal politics don't jive with Samurai's, I agree with him. If he or anyone else wants to vote for McCain after weighing the evidence as it is, then so be it. Their vote, their call.

And yeah, I know it's a political thread and debate is par for the course and I'm comparatively new guy- but this is why I don't often participate in the threads.

If McCain were to win, it would take a lot of citizen activism to prevent this country going completely down the toilet.

[rick]

By the way, just to make the record clear, here's George Obama calling the story bullshit.


Meet George Obama (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/22/bts.obama.brother/index.html)

[Samurai]

Good god, do you really believe this bullshit?

If you are claiming the McCain campaign actually are the ones behind the ad, and that the statement at the end of the ad is a lie, and you can prove it, you could really nail the McCain campaign for it... so go ahead, present your evidence.

[rick]

If you are claiming the McCain campaign actually are the ones behind the ad, and that the statement at the end of the ad is a lie, and you can prove it, you could really nail the McCain campaign for it... so go ahead, present your evidence.


I would think that Paul is saying that Presidential campaigns and state political parties work hand in hand.

It's not like the Texas Republican Party is simply some unconnected special interest completly outside of the national party.

[Samurai]

I'm actually rather interested in hearing the extreme posters on either side of the barrel as to what their reactions would be if their unwanted candidate wins. ie, Samurai and Novaya, what would you do or think if Obama won?

And as much as my own personal politics don't jive with Samurai's, I agree with him. If he or anyone else wants to vote for McCain after weighing the evidence as it is, then so be it. Their vote, their call.

And yeah, I know it's a political thread and debate is par for the course and I'm comparatively new guy- but this is why I don't often participate in the threads.

The only way to eventually build up your post count and no longer be a new guy is to post, so don't be shy, just jump in!

My reaction would be one of great disappointment and disgust, but I wouldn't plan to leave the country or anything. From then on, it would be about tackling the issues and events as they come up, pretty much the same as I'd do with McCain (except I'd probably disagree with things twice as often under a President Obama rather than McCain.) Some rare issues I might agree with him on, but most of the time I expect I'd be discussing the latest inane proposal or appointment or speech, etc. For me, it's really about the individual issues... whether it's McCain or Obama proposing a tax increase, I'd be opposed to it. Whether it's Obama or McCain pushing for a tax cut, I'd be for it (if I'm included in it).

[Samurai]

I would think that Paul is saying that Presidential campaigns and state political parties work hand in hand.

It's not like the Texas Republican Party is simply some unconnected special interest completly outside of the national party.

He may be saying that now, but the next time MoveOn.org posts a nasty attack ad, he'd deny the Obama campaign had anything at all to do with it... It doesn't matter if its a 527 or a state party funded ad, it's illegal for the candidate's campaign to be involved with an ad without stating that, and an "I approve this ad" message.

[Joe Rice]

He may be saying that now, but the next time MoveOn.org posts a nasty attack ad, he'd deny the Obama campaign had anything at all to do with it...

Are you aware that moveon.org, for all it's problems, isn't actually a state Democratic party? If you aren't, that's silly. If you are, stop lying and misrepresenting.

[Paul McEnery]

I would think that Paul is saying that Presidential campaigns and state political parties work hand in hand.

It's not like the Texas Republican Party is simply some unconnected special interest completly outside of the national party.

I think I would go a little further than that.

I'd say "how fucking stupid do you have to be to think a partisan broadcast is independent"?

[Paul McEnery]

He may be saying that now, but the next time MoveOn.org posts a nasty attack ad, he'd deny the Obama campaign had anything at all to do with it... It doesn't matter if its a 527 or a state party funded ad, it's illegal for the candidate's campaign to be involved with an ad without stating that, and an "I approve this ad" message.

You're really going to claim that that's the point?

You arsehole.

[Samurai]

You're really going to claim that that's the point?

You arsehole.

No, if I were an arsehole, you'd totally love me... :)

[rick]

He may be saying that now, but the next time MoveOn.org posts a nasty attack ad, he'd deny the Obama campaign had anything at all to do with it... It doesn't matter if its a 527 or a state party funded ad, it's illegal for the candidate's campaign to be involved with an ad without stating that, and an "I approve this ad" message.


No, that is completely incorrect.

527 groups and state political parties are under very different rules.

A state political party is allowed to cooperate and coordinate with the national party, while a 527 group is banned by law from coordinating in any way with a political party or campaign.

[KevinTBrown]

Well, enough of the arsehole talk....

Not sure if anyone watched Michelle Obama's speech tonight, but she definitely nailed it.

Wow.

What an incredible speech.

[rick]

Obama's daughter Sasha pretty much just stole the show.

Completly threw her dad for a loop.

[Infra-Man]

That was awesome and adorable. Nice capper for the first night.

[Paul McEnery]

Obama's daughter Sasha pretty much just stole the show.

Completly threw her dad for a loop.

Oh dear.

Well, enough of the arsehole talk....

Not sure if anyone watched Michelle Obama's speech tonight, but she definitely nailed it.

Wow.

What an incredible speech.

Oh dear oh dear.

I'd better get Cassandra from the pub before she gets too pickled, or she's going to cry like a baby when she sees this.

[KevinTBrown]

Obama's daughter Sasha pretty much just stole the show.

Completly threw her dad for a loop.

"What city are you in, Daddy?"


Who needs the Pubs to find the simple and honest mistakes..? An 8 year old can do it! :biggrin:

[Buzz Dixon]

Michelle's speech was great. Getting her out of the public eye for the bulk of the summer then allowing her to be re-introduced to America in this manner was a very, very smart move.

[Samurai]

Michelle's speech was great. Getting her out of the public eye for the bulk of the summer then allowing her to be re-introduced to America in this manner was a very, very smart move.

Only if America has a very short memory...

[rick]

Only if America has a very short memory...


We both know the answer to that one. :tongue:

[KevinTBrown]

Only if America has a very short memory...

They voted for Bush again in '04.....

That should tell you all you need to know. :rolleyes:

[Infra-Man]

Only if America has a very short memory...

Which a lot of Americans do.

[FalconX2000]

I gotta ask.

(Yeah, I lurk. Big Political junkie but I mostly just lurk on all the political threads.)

What would people do if their guy didn't win? What would you McCain supporters do if Obama won? What would you Obama supporters do if McCain wins? And let's just jettison any "There's no way X can win" arguments and just assume your horse didn't win.

I'd have to get used to the idea of China being the world's sole superpower 20 years from now. I'm not keen on that. While I agree with some others that McCain would likely be marginally better than Bush, he's not going to have the cushion of a post-Clinton presidency to work with. Marginally slowing America's descent isn't good enough.

Mostly curiosity. I didn't know anybody that had to see shrinks. But I'll admit I called into work because I stayed up all night waiting for election results to roll in. A buddy of mine literally put his money where his mouth was and didn't move back to America after the 2004 election. He's happily married and content in Japan now. (A tad extreme of a reaction, in my opinion, but I give him credit for sticking to his guns.)

If it weren't for the social problems created by the conservative culture, the fugly city designs and what seems like 10 middlemen for every product in the economy, Japan would be the best place to live in the world imo.

[Infra-Man]

I'm actually rather interested in hearing the extreme posters on either side of the barrel as to what their reactions would be if their unwanted candidate wins. ie, Samurai and Novaya, what would you do or think if Obama won?

I'd keep on keeping on, which is the only thing you can do, really. So your candidate didn't win. It's rough, but as a friend said after 2004, sometimes you just need to focus on your friends and family and what you can do to makes things better at an actual level where you can affect change. And really, that's good advice if your candidate wins or doesn't win.

[LtMarvel]

If Sen. Obama's half brother (who Obama has welcomed) is on the table, Mrs. McCain's half-sisters (who she won't even admit to) are fair game, too.

[LtMarvel]

The only way to eventually build up your post count and no longer be a new guy is to post, so don't be shy, just jump in!

My reaction would be one of great disappointment and disgust, but I wouldn't plan to leave the country or anything. From then on, it would be about tackling the issues and events as they come up, pretty much the same as I'd do with McCain (except I'd probably disagree with things twice as often under a President Obama rather than McCain.) Some rare issues I might agree with him on, but most of the time I expect I'd be discussing the latest inane proposal or appointment or speech, etc. For me, it's really about the individual issues... whether it's McCain or Obama proposing a tax increase, I'd be opposed to it. Whether it's Obama or McCain pushing for a tax cut, I'd be for it (if I'm included in it).

1. Reason to vote Obama right there. (Just check out his political posts!)

2. How entirely selfish of you.

[Trench]

Holy Shit. (http://cbs4denver.com/investigates/assisination.plot.obama.2.802827.html)

Someone tell me this will be debunked, cause that's just fucking scary.

[kingdom2000]

Holy Shit. (http://cbs4denver.com/investigates/assisination.plot.obama.2.802827.html)

Someone tell me this will be debunked, cause that's just fucking scary.

Probably not. Obama is a black man running for president. For all the PCness and facade people throw up there are still enough out there that see murder as a solution to something they don't like. Obama's security detail probably deals with a couple dozen threats a day and no telling how many of those are real.

[Infra-Man]

Holy Shit. (http://cbs4denver.com/investigates/assisination.plot.obama.2.802827.html)

Someone tell me this will be debunked, cause that's just fucking scary.

Here's another report on this. I'm looking through a Fark thread on this story to see if there are any other developments.

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=98343&catid=339

EDIT:
Hopefully more details in morning. Expect some news reports about heightened security starting tomorrow.

[Joe Rice]

I heard a kid I went to high school with vow to either kill the first black president or die trying. I don't doubt the stupidity of super-right racists.

As for if McCain wins I'll be extremely sad and work extra hard at my job and make sure my kids and their families are OK.

[Nick Soapdish]

McCain and Obama are both rich.

Obama has only one house, however. McCain doesn't know how many he has, but the news agencies helping him find out say there are at least seven.

Just one?

I'd figure that he'd have one in both DC and Illinois. Does he only have an apartment or rent in one?

Oh, yes!

Since Obama is now "THE" nominee -- even though he technically is not -- and already had delegates stolen to embolden his "insumountable" count, why -- sure -- let's count Michigan! In full! You mattered!

Cheap pander, just like the heinous RBC decision. I voted Kerry in '04. This year? McCain. Don't mess around with Michigan!

He was the nominee even before they mucked about with the votes for Michigan and Florida.

My odds of winning the Florida lottery were better than her taking the over 75% of the vote that she needed from all off the remaining states. Especially since she hadn't matched that percentage once (or maybe only once).

Which I'll admit makes it very silly of her to be fighting so hard for those votes to be counted in any way possible after arguing against it. And very silly that the DNC didn't just say "yeah, sure whatever" right then.

I gotta ask.

(Yeah, I lurk. Big Political junkie but I mostly just lurk on all the political threads.)

What would people do if their guy didn't win? What would you McCain supporters do if Obama won? What would you Obama supporters do if McCain wins? And let's just jettison any "There's no way X can win" arguments and just assume your horse didn't win.

Move to Canada!

Seriously, I like it here in the US. And it can't possibly be as bad or as embarrassing to be a US citizen as it was under Bush.

McCain may have some bad ideas and be trying his darndest to start adopting Bush's bad ideas as well as other alarming habits (still can't believe that the evangelicals are buying his act with Falwell at all ... or that Falwell was buying it).

But at least he's competent. He may be driving in the wrong direction sometimes, but at least he won't keep mistaking the ditch for the road.

[FalconX2000]

1. Reason to vote Obama right there. (Just check out his political posts!)

2. How entirely selfish of you.

Ahh, there are plenty of great reasons to trash Sam. No need to go after his voting for a tax plan that benefits him.

[FalconX2000]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121970896854771195.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

A very impressive read about Biden, written by the former ambassador to Romania, Jim Rosapepe, recalling how he handled situation immediately following Kosovo.

http://trailblazersblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/08/relationship-expert-says-obama.html

And a piece of fluff to go with it, Chemistry.com analysing the relationship potential between Obama and Biden.

[Paul McEnery]

Probably not. Obama is a black man running for president. For all the PCness and facade people throw up there are still enough out there that see murder as a solution to something they don't like. Obama's security detail probably deals with a couple dozen threats a day and no telling how many of those are real.

Still, I'm sure we can all see through the idea that he might actually be a public-spirited citizen who's willing to put himself in harm's way for his country, and see instead that Obama's just a cynical opportunist who hates America.

[Samurai]

Ahh, there are plenty of great reasons to trash Sam. No need to go after his voting for a tax plan that benefits him.

And you can also think of it this way... I'm poor. I want a tax cut that benefits the poor as well as the rich. Yeah, I don't pay as much as the rich, but any tax cuts should include the poor by at least the same percentage of reduction as the rich get. For all the crying and moaning, Bush's tax cuts did that. A tax cut that is truly only for the rich is not something I be very favorable toward (unless it's an issue of fairness or some other reason). I'm in favor of a progressive tax system, not regressive or even flat.

However, that doesn't mean for 1 second that I'm in favor of class warfare, punitive or excessive taxes against the rich, windfall taxes that will only get passed on to consumers, and other junk dreamed up by the Dems...

[the4thpip]

I'm poor.

Then ask yourself this: Are you better off now than you were 8 years ago?

[Samurai]

Then ask yourself this: Are you better off now than you were 8 years ago?

That depends. 8 years ago, I was living in the bay area, working at a telecommunications company. My gross pay was slightly higher than it is now, but my cost of living in the city was far, far higher (my rent was literally double what I'm paying now, etc.) I was just breaking even some months, and other months I had to pull a little from my savings to pay all the bills. I wasn't getting ahead financially because of the extremely high cost of living.

I now live in a smaller town, and while I'm earning 10% less per hour (and working fewer hours as well, which further reduces my earnings), I'm actually able to save a little money each month because the cost of living here is so much less.

Then there is also the fact that there are many more important ways to judge how you are doing in life than the size of your paycheck, and here I have friends and family close by...

[the4thpip]

Then there is also the fact that there are many more important ways to judge how you are doing in life than the size of your paycheck.

Then maybe you should have a closer look on how any given tax cut affects the country you live in before you throw your support behind it?

[FalconX2000]

And you can also think of it this way... I'm poor. I want a tax cut that benefits the poor as well as the rich. Yeah, I don't pay as much as the rich, but any tax cuts should include the poor by at least the same percentage of reduction as the rich get. For all the crying and moaning, Bush's tax cuts did that. A tax cut that is truly only for the rich is not something I be very favorable toward (unless it's an issue of fairness or some other reason). I'm in favor of a progressive tax system, not regressive or even flat.

However, that doesn't mean for 1 second that I'm in favor of class warfare, punitive or excessive taxes against the rich, windfall taxes that will only get passed on to consumers, and other junk dreamed up by the Dems...

I've said before that I have no ethical problems for voting for a tax plan that benefits you.

I might say it's stupid to look at that as the be-all issue, but there's nothing wrong with it.

Of course, all this is forgetting that Obama's tax plans benefit everyone making $100000 or less much more than McCain's. Or that prices for most products can't be passed onto consumers with the snap of a finger due to competition.

[Infra-Man]

McCain milks his POW status (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?p=7439359#post7439359) yet again... No, this is a new one.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/08/on-leno-mccain.html

On Leno, McCain Invokes POW History When Asked About House Controversy
August 25, 2008 10:02 PM

"For a million dollars," Jay Leno asked Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., today, "how many houses do you have?"

"Could I just mention to you, Jay, that, at a moment of seriousness. I spent five-and-a-half years in a prison cell," McCain said. "I didn't have a house. I didn't have a kitchen table. I didn't have a table. I didn't have a chair. And I didn't spend those five-and-a-half years because, not because I wanted to get a house when I got out."

Turning to the subject of his wife Cindy's father, whose built her family's fortune, McCain said, "you know, I'm very proud of Cindy's father. He was a guy that barely got out of high school, fought in W.W. II in the Army Air Corps, came home and made a business, and made the American dream.

"And so somehow, you've had Cindy on this show, and the fact is that she's extremely generous," McCain said, "she goes around the world doing humanitarian stuff. She's now in Georgia as we speak, looking at the humanitarian aspects of the results of this Russian invasion. So, I'm proud of my life and my record, and we spend our time in a condominium in Washington, in a condominium in Phoenix, sometime over here in the state of California and we have a place up in northern Arizona. And, my friends, I'm proud of my record of service to this country. And it has nothing to with houses. What it has to do with putting Americans in houses and keeping in their homes. And that's what I'm gong to do."

Concluded Leno: "That sounds like five houses."

McCain's rhetoric = NOUN, VERB, P.O.W., my friends.

[KevinTBrown]

Then ask yourself this: Are you better off now than you were 8 years ago?

Nope.....

My retirement account, no matter what I do with it, is less now than it was in 2000 before the election. Not a by large amount, but definitely less. Thankfully it's been increasing verrrrrry slowly, but not at significant pace. At least the 401K is increasing each and every month.

Back in 2000, again before the election, if things had gone along as they had been from '96 until then, my wife could have retired in 2014 at the age of 67. Now we'll be lucky if either of us can retire.

[Gilda Dent]

Then ask yourself this: Are you better off now than you were 8 years ago?

I'm much better off, but that's chiefly because I've finished graduate school and did what my mom would have called "marrying well" under other circumstances. Had I been on my own, I'd have likely been about the same.

My retirement accounts, not so much. My low risk account, which has a fixed interest rate, goes up a tiny bit each quarter, and my high risk account, which has a variable value depending on stock market fluctuations, has lost value with every single investor report I've gotten from it in the past 7 years.

[Typo Lad]

I gotta ask.

(Yeah, I lurk. Big Political junkie but I mostly just lurk on all the political threads.)

What would people do if their guy didn't win? What would you McCain supporters do if Obama won? What would you Obama supporters do if McCain wins? And let's just jettison any "There's no way X can win" arguments and just assume your horse didn't win.

I'd suck it up and deal, like I did the last two times.

Although, McCain winning would have one clear impact on my Jewish life.

Y'see, some Synagogues insert a "prayer for the health and well being for the president of the United States". It's not my families personal custom, as it is a modern addition. My current synagogue says it, and I used to step into the hall and read the announcements. Recently, I started staying in, due to nightmares of President Cheney.

Depending on who McCain picks, I might be able to step out into the hall again.

[Gilda Dent]

I gotta ask.

(Yeah, I lurk. Big Political junkie but I mostly just lurk on all the political threads.)

What would people do if their guy didn't win? What would you McCain supporters do if Obama won? What would you Obama supporters do if McCain wins? And let's just jettison any "There's no way X can win" arguments and just assume your horse didn't win.

I've not decided who I'm voting for yet, but it won't be one of the candidates from the big 2, so I'm going in with it being a certainty that whomever gets my vote won't be winning.

This being the case, I'm not going to be very disappointed.

[Paul McEnery]

I'd suck it up and deal, like I did the last two times.

Although, McCain winning would have one clear impact on my Jewish life.

Y'see, some Synagogues insert a "prayer for the health and well being for the president of the United States". It's not my families personal custom, as it is a modern addition. My current synagogue says it, and I used to step into the hall and read the announcements. Recently, I started staying in, due to nightmares of President Cheney.

Depending on who McCain picks, I might be able to step out into the hall again.

I can help you with that one.

"Health" = wholeness, as in having a working sense of compassion; "Well-Being" = not being a lying psycho who thinks mass murder is all in a day's work.

You're welcome.

[Typo Lad]

Dang. Going by that, I should not only not be leaving, I should be praying very, very loudly (I stand silently and plot comic books).

[Paul McEnery]

Dang. Going by that, I should not only not be leaving, I should be praying very, very loudly (I stand silently and plot comic books).

In the style of Garth Ennis, by the sound of it. :biggrin:











Actually, because I'm a right sod, I'd let it be known what my definitions of health & well-being are, and pray the loudest of everybody.

It was a topic of some seriousness in our chaplaincy, actually; when you're praying for some despot somewhere, what the hell are you really achieving. Very little more than a focus of the will, and a reminder that the bastard is still a human being like the rest of us, was our conclusion.

[Michael P]

Well, that latter is rather important.

[Buzz Dixon]

Y'see, some Synagogues insert a "prayer for the health and well being for the president of the United States". It's not my families personal custom, as it is a modern addition. My current synagogue says it, and I used to step into the hall and read the announcements. Recently, I started staying in, due to nightmares of President Cheney."Is there a prayer for the Tsar?"

"A prayer for the Tsar? Yes, there is. Oh, Lord, please keep the Tsar safe and healthy...and away from us."

FIDDLER ON THE ROOF (no guarantee this is verbatim, but it's the gist of the quote)

[Typo Lad]

Heh.

I'm actually related to Shalom Aleichem, the author of the stories the play was based on.

In other election and family news, my dad just got a surge of speaking requests. Seems he's been saying Biden for months now, and his guess has earned him some kind of poli-sci cred.

[Paul McEnery]

Well, that latter is rather important.

No, it is, of course. If you're going to be working for someone's political downfall -- like apartheid in South Africa, for instance -- it's incredibly important to recognize that they're people too. Which is why the transition worked a whole lot better than most, and we didn't wind up with another Sarajevo on our hands.

But one shouldn't mistake that -- as people so often do with prayer -- as a kind of direct action, or even as a kind of psychological release. In this case, it's just a matter of remembering to engage with your political enemy personally.








That said, I think there actually is some "action at a distance" prayer you can do, but it's pretty limited in scope, and depends on having some physical relationship with the person concerned. The Voodoo people are not wrong!

[king mob]

I'm not sure if anyone outside the UK will be able to watch it, but Channel 4 News has just done a very interesting report on the Democratic convention & Hillary supporters. It should be online in a bout an hour or so on the watch again feature.

http://www.channel4.com/news/

[LtMarvel]

NPR's Here and Now interviewed some of the PUMA people.

They sound very, very bitter and not ready to listen to reason of any kind.

(Of course, wouldn't anyone who takes the time to hang out in PUMA office?)

[KevinTBrown]

NPR's Here and Now interviewed some of the PUMA people.

They sound very, very bitter and not ready to listen to reason of any kind.

(Of course, wouldn't anyone who takes the time to hang out in PUMA office?)

Well, just look at how Novaya reacted on here.

That should tell you all you need to know........

[Paul McEnery]

NPR's Here and Now interviewed some of the PUMA people.

They sound very, very bitter and not ready to listen to reason of any kind.

(Of course, wouldn't anyone who takes the time to hang out in PUMA office?)

Oh, if only I could find one. :evilsmile:

Anyway, isn't it time to take them out of the oven now?

[Sabrinaset]

Oh, if only I could find one. :evilsmile:

Anyway, isn't it time to take them out of the oven now?

What YOU call a PUMA office is better known as a Genesis Ark. Paul, you're slipping ... I so expected YOU to make the connection!

Anyway, more Election/Convention news ...

Jimmy Carter calls Obama "This Black Boy". (http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/video.aspx?RsrcID=34615) Uh-HUH ...

Bill Clinton is at it AGAIN ... (http://thehill.com/campaign-2008/bill-clinton-in-denver-again-undercuts-obama-2008-08-26.html)

He said: "Suppose you're a voter, and you've got candidate X and candidate Y. Candidate X agrees with you on everything, but you don't think that candidate can deliver on anything at all. Candidate Y you agree with on about half the issues, but he can deliver. Which candidate are you going to vote for?"

Then, perhaps mindful of how his off-the-cuff remarks might be taken, Clinton added after a pause: "This has nothing to do with what's going on now."

The comments are unlikely to be taken as an innocent mistake by those Democrats who continue to be angry with the former president for, they say, not supporting the Illinois senator wholeheartedly, if not implicitly undercutting him...

Former Clinton aide and Democratic strategist Paul Begala, however, told The Hill that the former president is solidly behind Obama's candidacy.

"He's totally for Barack," Begala said Tuesday. "He's totally for Barack."

You just keep telling yourself that, Begala ...! :smile:

Gallup Daily: No Bounce for Obama in Post-Biden Tracking (http://www.gallup.com/poll/109834/Gallup-Daily-Bounce-Obama-Post-Biden-Tracking.aspx)

Olbermann puts his foot in his mouth (again) (http://newsbusters.org/blogs/p-j-gladnick/2008/08/26/keith-olbermann-caught-dissing-joe-scarborough-open-mic)

[darkhanamaru]

...

Jimmy Carter calls Obama "This Black Boy". (http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/video.aspx?RsrcID=34615) Uh-HUH ...

[[/URL]

Uh he was referring to obama as a child, when he was a "black boy". No problem with this.

[the4thpip]

http://wonkette.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/john-mccain.gif

[Paul McEnery]

What YOU call a PUMA office is better known as a Genesis Ark. Paul, you're slipping ... I so expected YOU to make the connection!

No no no.

The daleks are all over at the other convention.

the PUMAs are Sontarans.

[Charles RB]

The Sontarans were a feared, powerful and effective group.

PUMA are those shower of useless mass-cloned bastards who can't shoot shit and didn't want to stop fighting in The Doctor's Daughter.

[Paul McEnery]

The Sontarans were a feared, powerful and effective group.

PUMA are those shower of useless mass-cloned bastards who can't shoot shit and didn't want to stop fighting in The Doctor's Daughter.

The useless mass-cloned bastard bit is the key!

But I wanted shortarses with an inferiority complex in there too.

And the "let's poison the atmosphere so we can get our way."

And the bit where their spaceship blows up.

[section 8]

Uh he was referring to obama as a child, when he was a "black boy". No problem with this.

For Shame!! He should have said
"African American Man-Child":rolleyes:

[Charles RB]

The useless mass-cloned bastard bit is the key!

But I wanted shortarses with an inferiority complex in there too.

And the "let's poison the atmosphere so we can get our way."

And the bit where their spaceship blows up.

So who are the Rutans?

[Paul McEnery]

So who are the Rutans?

In their natural forms, Rutans resemble large green jellyfish, glowing blobs of biomatter with long ropy tentacles. They are amphibious and can cling to sheer vertical surfaces, with considerable mobility out of the water despite their shape. Rutans can also generate lethal bioelectrical shocks, and seem to be able to absorb electrical energy directly for sustenance. They reproduce by a process similar to binary fission, with each daughter Rutan carrying the memories of the parent. Rutans can speak, although the exact mechanism by which this works is unknown as they seem to lack mouths. The Rutan observed in Horror of Fang Rock spoke with a harsh, tinny male voice.

The title "Rutan Host" implies a gestalt or group intelligence of some kind, and indeed Rutans never refer to themselves as individuals, preferring the first person plurals "we", "us", and "our(s)". Rutans are able to operate independently, and, like the Sontarans, often dispatch scout units consisting of a single soldier, but they do not see individuals as important and all individual desires are subsumed by the general desire to win the war with the "Sontaran rabble".

Rutans have also developed advanced shape-shifting technology, allowing them to appear in any form they wish. They often use this technology to adapt to alien environments and infiltrate alien cultures; Rutans are consummate spies. A Rutan usually kills specific individuals and then impersonates them, though it is unclear whether this tactic is merely to prevent discovery or because they need to make a detailed examination of the body before adopting its shape.

Since Dean lost, we haven't heard too much from them.

[Infra-Man]

From Hillary Clinton's speech:
Most of all, I ran to stand up for all those who have been invisible to their government for eight long years. Those are the reasons I ran for president, and those are the reasons I support Barack Obama for president.

I want you to ask yourselves: Were you in this campaign just for me? Or were you in it for that young Marine and others like him? Were you in it for that mom struggling with cancer while raising her kids? Were you in it for that young boy and his mom surviving on the minimum wage? Were you in it for all the people in this country who feel invisible?


PUMAS on their blog during Hillary Clinton's speech:
#59 LivingGrace on 08.26.08 at 10:56 pm
Hillary for President!!!!!

#77 Rancho on 08.26.08 at 10:59 pm
SHE ASKS WHY WE WERE IN IT!
I’M IN IT FOR WHAT WAS RIGHT, AND HONEST, AND NOT STOLEN! WE DO NEED A PRESIDENT THAT UNDERSTANDS, AND OBAMA ISN’T IT!

#82 mpdamon on 08.26.08 at 11:00 pm
Obama is a disgusting piece of d****. McCain in November.

#86 NoMoreInFL on 08.26.08 at 11:00 pm
Only Hillary would speak of the other one…he would never speak like this about her!

NOBAMA…NOW OR EVER!

Hillary in 2008!


Me to Hillary Clinton:
Thank you. You've done a hellluva job, and though I may have disagreed with you, you nailed it.


Me to PUMAS:
Did you intentionally try to miss the point or did you just not understand what she meant when she asked if you were voting for her or the invisible people?

[Michael P]

From Hillary Clinton's speech:



PUMAS on their blog during Hillary Clinton's speech:



Me to Hillary Clinton:



Me to PUMAS:

I think The Daily Show's John Oliver had the final word on the PUMAs. He talked to some of them, asked himself what could explain their behavior, and then went to a child psychologist for the answer.

[Infra-Man]

I think The Daily Show's John Oliver had the final word on the PUMAs. He talked to some of them, asked himself what could explain their behavior, and then went to a child psychologist for the answer.

I missed that segment because one of my roommates was watching something on IFC (one of those people who doesn't follow politics at all but pontificates ignorantly, insufferably, and endlessly about politics). Was streaming the PBS feed in my room.

Will definitely check out that segment on Hulu tomorrow morning.


EDIT:
Just saw this PUMA comment posted on a Fark thread

#98 Ergot4Hill on 08.26.08 at 11:02 pm

How can we profess to support Hillary but at the same time not listen to her admonitions to us-admonitions that if we really support what she stands for, that we have to support Obama?

Are we saying we know better than her?

I have a headache from this, fellow PUMAs.

And from the salted wasteland soil there sprouted the first hint of life.

[Sabrinaset]

There was a Hill delegate on CNN who practically cried herself verklempt talking about Hillary. This character said she'd never vote for McCain, but she didn't know if she was going to vote at all in the general election. It was actually really funny, and I hope I see it on YouTube soon!

[Infra-Man]

There was a Hill delegate on CNN who practically cried herself verklempt talking about Hillary. This character said she'd never vote for McCain, but she didn't know if she was going to vote at all in the general election. It was actually really funny, and I hope I see it on YouTube soon!

Totally looking that one up.

The official Fark DNCC thread has some other winners from the PUMA PAC blog. This being two oddities hatched from the same bad egg...

#294 jenniforhillary on 08.26.08 at 11:35 pm

I challenge ALL Americans to vote for McCain as a shout out to WASHINGTON that we will not be lied to ever again...

Let's make sure the DNC does not make America a 3rd world country, let's get our VOTES and our RIGHTS BACK...

Hillary or McCain....Death before Dishonor, never gonna vote Osama



#326 jenniforhillary on 08.26.08 at 11:43 pm

I can tell you what IS offensive...the DNC and every single supporter of BO and MO.

Offensive and should be illegal.

I am glad I do not have to tell my daughter what is going on...I have no children. If I did, I would still be crying.

We as humans should be ashamed of this sham. I am going to go spend some time with my animals...They are above all of this and that is where I want to be.

[Kyuubi]

I'd never hit a PUMA, but I'd sure shake the shit out of one.



(Chris Rock Joke)

[LtMarvel]

Olbermann puts his foot in his mouth (again) (http://newsbusters.org/blogs/p-j-gladnick/2008/08/26/keith-olbermann-caught-dissing-joe-scarborough-open-mic)
I wish more pundits would debate others with facts like KO did here....

[section 8]

"Puma"? Isn't that what they call older women who like younger men?

[Samurai]

"Puma"? Isn't that what they call older women who like younger men?

That's "cougars"...

[Jake V]

"Puma"? Isn't that what they call older women who like younger men?

Actually, that description is half right.

[kingdom2000]

I want to think some of those PUMA's are republican plants....but the logic being used is so idiotic and convuluted that it can only come from democrats.

[Jake V]

I want to think some of those PUMA's are republican plants....but the logic being used is so idiotic and convuluted that it can only come from democrats.

There is logic being used?

[Charles RB]

From Hillary Clinton's speech:

PUMAS on their blog during Hillary Clinton's speech:

That's the dumbest thing I've seen in ages, and I've seen Bulk & Skull from Power Rangers.

And Power Rangers in general.

[KevinTBrown]

Hm.

Well, Obama apparently is not going for the Cubs fan vote: http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3553404

:mad:

[LtMarvel]

Psst! Search The Daily Show for "cougars".... you won't be sorry.

[the4thpip]

Good point by Nancy Pelosi:

during a breakfast discussion sponsored by Yahoo News, Politico and the Denver Post. Later in the panel, she accused McCain of simply trying to distract voters with his celeb campaigns.

"We cannot be diverted to the silliness that the McCain campaign -- of course they want to talk about Paris Hilton," she said. "Would they want to talk about why they have the worst record of job creation in America? Of course they want to talk about something else. ... They don't want to talk about the issues."

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Pelosi_Dems_wont_be_distracted_by_0826.html

[Infra-Man]

Democratic Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell compares Obama to Adlai Stevenson... Ummm... Eddie? Why are you jinxing your own party?

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/08/26/rendell_compares_obama_to_adla.html

excerpt
For a politician cut from a rougher cloth, Rendell may have offered a back-handed compliment when he compared Obama to Adlai Stevenson, the failed Democratic candidate from the 1950s who captured the imagination of American intellectuals but not the electorate at large.

"He is a little like Adlai Stevenson," Rendell mused. "You ask him a question, and he gives you a six-minute answer. And the six-minute answer is smart as all get out. It's intellectual. It's well framed. It takes care of all the contingencies. But it's a lousy soundbite."

"We've got to start smacking back in short understandable bites," he said, noting "Everybody is nervous as all get out. Everybody says we ought to be ahead by 10, 15 points. What the heck is going on?"

Translation of Rendell's statements...
http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/8772/idiocracyja4.jpg

[the4thpip]

Look, I owe the American people an apology. If I had beaten the old man you'd have never heard of the kid and you wouldn't be in this mess. So it's all my fault and I feel that very, very strongly. So this is an important election for us. Let me tell 'ya.

Michael Dukakis CBS' Katie Couric today.