2008 U.S. Presidential Election Mega thread

[Michael P]

I think the important thing is, he doesn't feel bad being picked up on his mistakes on camera by Lieberman. It'll be like Grumpy Old Men, with Cindy in the Ann Margaret role. They can go ice-fishing together!

Does that mean George Bush Senior is going to make a whole bunch of crude innuendos during the closing credits?

[FalconX2000]

Oh really?

http://uk.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUKN1948672420080820

The title for that article already says "Poll shows McCain in 5-point lead over Obama". Just as I the Newsweek poll showing Obama 15 points ahead was not worth looking at, I don't believe this poll either.

Every single other poll I know of shows Obama with a substantial edge on the issue.

[Typo Lad]

I caught a bit of the news tonight and they're saying Lieberman might be McCain's running mate???

They've been tossing his name around for months, almost as far back as the start of the campaign.

I think that's a mistake on McCain's part, given the confusion of the people in the Bible Belt that I personally heard about Lieberman's religion. Plus, grabbing an independent is not going to help McCain get out the base Republicans.

What does everyone else think?

I think grabbing an Independent as a running mate would help grab unaffiliated voters, but not this particular one. I respect Senator Leiberman in many ways, despite disagreeing with him on matters of National Security, but I don't think he brings anything to the table that any other candidate would. The only reason to have him would be to show "diversity", and I'm not a fan of a token anything.

I think picking Lieberman would be a great idea. If he wants to lose.

Eh. I know I harp on the whole "Jewish vote means nothing" thing, but one thing it would do is lock the fence-sitting Heebs, who will vote for one of the tribe automatically.

Not the voter segment McCain needs to work on, but still, I guess every bit counts.

I think the important thing is, he doesn't feel bad being picked up on his mistakes on camera by Lieberman. It'll be like Grumpy Old Men, with Cindy in the Ann Margaret role. They can go ice-fishing together!

Heh.

Well, it does kind of take the lie out of McCain's recent comment about Bloomberg not being a "good" fit because he was pro "gay rights". Why? Because Lieberman supports same-sex unions.

If I were Lieberman, I'd jump at the chance.

It would guarantee my place in history as the only person to be nominated for the veep slot in both parties. I'd be a Trivial Pursuit perennial.

That is, of course, a great reason right there.

[FalconX2000]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/20/AR2008082003262.html?hpid=topnews

Looks like the Obama campaign is serious about reforming the system, at least in terms of the democratic presidential primaries.

[KevinTBrown]

So, who's elitest?

McCain has no idea how many houses he owns. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080821/pl_politico/12685)

[Typo Lad]

So, who's elitest?

McCain has no idea how many houses he owns. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080821/pl_politico/12685)
The Obama campaign seized on the house issue Thursday with an ad called "Seven," claiming that's the number of houses McCain has.

Gha! Politics as usual!

[LtMarvel]

So, who's elitest?

McCain has no idea how many houses he owns. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080821/pl_politico/12685)
McCain defined rich as families who earn $5 million or more per year.

Can someone make me just short of rich?

[FalconX2000]

McCain defined rich as families who earn $5 million or more per year.

Can someone make me just short of rich?

You can start by voting Obama and get a bigger tax break than you would under a McCain administration (unless you're already making $150000 or more a year).

That'll get you a bit up the ladder.:wink:

[Michael P]

You can start by voting Obama and get a bigger tax break than you would under a McCain administration (unless you're already making $150000 or more a year).

That'll get you a bit up the ladder.:wink:

Now, now, Falcon. That's class warfare.

[FalconX2000]

Now, now, Falcon. That's class warfare.

If that was a joke, lol.

If it wasnt:

If people making more than $150,000 vote for McCain for the bigger break, I'm not offended by that. I might try to persuade them otherwise, but they'd have a tangible, clear cut reason.

My family used to be pretty well off till the business got hit a couple of years ago. We had a bungalow, 2 cars, went overseas at least twice a year...

Resenting rich people for having money would be kinda dumb. In fact, resentment and jealousy are, perhaps, the 2 dumbest, most useless emotions in existence.

[Buzz Dixon]

Remember, ladies and gents, this is all just the trash talkin' that goes on at the weigh-in. The main event has yet to begin.

[EdContradictory]

If people making more than $150,000 vote for McCain for the bigger break, I'm not offended by that. I might try to persuade them otherwise, but they'd have a tangible, clear cut reason.


It's a shitty reason that ignores their responsibilities as citizens.

[Charles RB]

Remember, ladies and gents, this is all just the trash talkin' that goes on at the weigh-in. The main event has yet to begin.

When it begins, will there be warning sirens and everyone fleeing into the Underground?

[FalconX2000]

It's a shitty reason that ignores their responsibilities as citizens.

I never said it wasn't selfish, I just said I understood it. In fact, it becomes easier to think that McCain's policies will be good for the economy if you're rich, because it becomes easier to convince yourself of the notion.

[FalconX2000]

When it begins, will there be warning sirens and everyone fleeing into the Underground?

No, that's if McCain gets the presidency, sees a shiny red circle and goes "ooh, what does this button do?"

[Charles RB]

No, that's if McCain gets the presidency, sees a shiny red circle and goes "ooh, what does this button do?"

Reminds me of the Spitting Image gag with the Regans:

"Well, hun? Did the Earth move for ya?"
"No, Ronnie..."
"Hm. Guess I better press the button again."

(The other red button next to Nuke is Nurse)

[kingdom2000]

If that was a joke, lol.

If it wasnt:

If people making more than $150,000 vote for McCain for the bigger break, I'm not offended by that. I might try to persuade them otherwise, but they'd have a tangible, clear cut reason.

My family used to be pretty well off till the business got hit a couple of years ago. We had a bungalow, 2 cars, went overseas at least twice a year...

Resenting rich people for having money would be kinda dumb. In fact, resentment and jealousy are, perhaps, the 2 dumbest, most useless emotions in existence.

Its one of the things that always confuses me about the idiot masses. In bush's case, if you made $200,000 or more, there really was no reason whatsoever to vote for him beyond the usual "terrorists out to get me" paranoia. Of course now thanks to his policies that everyone not a conservative warned was bad, those $200,000 folks are joining the rest of us in being on the cusp of entering the lower class. With McCain its the exact same thing only the magic number is $150,000. Same thing though, if you make less then that there is 0 reason to vote for McSame.

[Sabrinaset]

The poll that had McCain up by 5 points (http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUKN1948672420080820?sp=true)got Estrich in a bit of a tizzy (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,407523,00.html), but Real Clear Politics puts it all in perspective. (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html)

Clinton creates "whip team" to quell anti-Obama protests. (http://www.politico.com/blogs/thecrypt/0808/Clinton_Creates_Whip_Team_to_Quell_AntiObama_Prote sts.html) Hmm, knowing Hillary, it'll probably be with real whips! :wink:

Interesting article on religion and politics ... (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12696_Page2.html)

For the first time in a dozen years, a majority of Americans believe that churches and religious institutions should “keep out” of politics, according the annual Pew Religion and Public Life Survey.

It’s the highest level of public concern with faith’s effect on politics since Pew began asking the question in 1996.

The rise in Americans’ desire to separate religion and politics – from 44 percent in 2004 to 52 percent today – appears due to a surprising increase in conservative distaste for mingling the institutions – from 30 percent in 2004 to half of conservatives expressing the view today.

Among white evangelicals, 36 percent want religious groups to stay out of politics, a dramatic rise from 16 percent four years ago....

In the survey, about half of Americans who view gay marriage and abortion as “very important” voting issues say churches should not be involved in politics. In 2004, only one in four voters who saw gay marriage as a top issue said the same, while a third of those who saw abortion as a top issue agreed as well.

Overall, 48 percent of Americans believe that social conservatives wield “too much” influence in the GOP...

Today, 38 percent of Americans said they believe that the Democratic Party is “generally friendly toward religion,” up from a low point of 26 percent in 2006 and roughly a return to the public’s view in 2003. And the finding will undoubtedly be welcomed by Democrats, who began a concerted effort following the last presidential election to at least partially mend the public’s poor view of Democrats openness to people of faith. Still, 43 percent of Americans believe liberals have too much control over the Democratic Party...

That places Obama not as far to the political left as Bill Clinton, and McCain not as far to the political right as Bush. Pew continues to find, however, that voters remain more socially conservative than liberal, positioning them nearer to McCain on “moral values” than Obama.

Republicans see Obama as vulnerable. (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080821131142.e21tax2g&show_article=1)

[Royal]

McCain wants Question Time. (http://washingtonindependent.com/view/president-mccain3)

Does he?

Really?

[Paul McEnery]

43 percent of Americans believe liberals have too much control over the Democratic Party...

Words fail me.

[section 8]

For the first time in a dozen years, a majority of Americans believe that churches and religious institutions should “ keep out” of politics, according the annual Pew Religion and Public Life Survey.

Words fail me as well, Religion and politics are indivisible is why we needed an amendment separating of church and state

[Michael P]

No they aren't.

[section 8]

No they aren't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

[Matt Doc Martin]

Words fail me as well, Religion and politics are indivisible is why we needed an amendment separating of church and state

That is asinine.

Religion and politics are totally separate. No youtube link will prove otherwise.

Politicians may cling TO religion for votes, but no one prays to the Republican party.

[Matt Doc Martin]

It's a shitty reason that ignores their responsibilities as citizens.
You mean they can't keep saying "Gimme, gimme!"?

You take all the fun out of being rich.

[Infra-Man]

McCain campaign's explanation for the house thing?

McCain was a POW! (http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/08/mccain_camp_responds_on_houses.php)

No, seriously...

The McCain campaign is road-testing a new argument in responding to Obama's criticism of his number-of-houses gaffe, an approach the McCain camp has never tried before: The houses gaffe doesn't matter because ... he was a POW!

"This is a guy who lived in one house for five and a half years -- in prison," spokesman Brian Rogers told the Washington Post.

For those of you who haven't kept track, the McCain campaign just recently cited McCain's POW years in explaining away the Miss Buffalo Chip gaffe, and in dealing with the allegation that he broke the rules and listened in on Barack Obama during the Rick Warren forum.

Also, Rogers made sure to play the anti-intellectual card: "In terms of who's an elitist, I think people have made a judgment that John McCain is not an arugula-eating, pointy headed professor-type based on his life story."


Rudy Giuliani = "Noun, verb, 9/11"

John McCain = "Noun, verb, POW"

[LtMarvel]

McCain Doesn't Disagree that We Might Need a Draft (http://www.vetvoice.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=1795)

[Michael P]

It's like McCain hired the fucking Keystone Kops.

[LtMarvel]

The Bush people really, really want Hans von Spakovsky, failed nominee of the Federal Election Comission. They hired him to oversee how well the Justice Department is overseeing the upcoming election. Von Sparkovsky supports restrictions on voting rights (which is why he was a failed nominee).

[Briareos]

The problem isn't that there is some attempt to make a official state church. The problem is the left is trying to delegitimize people using their religious beliefs in their judgement. They want to twist the constitution from "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" "To no one can use a religious belief in their thought process"

[section 8]

That is asinine.

Religion and politics are totally separate. No youtube link will prove otherwise.

Politicians may cling TO religion for votes, but no one prays to the Republican party.

Did you watch the link? pay close attention to the conversation from 0:55 to 1:17
(hint: it was a critique' on Michael's Brevity, and lack of substance within his post)

For that matter did you READ my posts?
I said they were Indivisible not one and the same.

If you think you can remove Religious influences from politics without resorting to socialism, or communism...good luck.

but pay attention, lest you look "asinine"

[Briareos]

The Bush people really, really want Hans von Spakovsky, failed nominee of the Federal Election Comission. They hired him to oversee how well the Justice Department is overseeing the upcoming election. Von Sparkovsky supports restrictions on voting rights (which is why he was a failed nominee).

He wanted people to have pull out a photo ID OH NOES!!!!! He didn't want restrictions on voting rights he wanted to curb election fraud...

[Michael P]

The problem isn't that there is some attempt to make a official state church. The problem is the left is trying to delegitimize people using their religious beliefs in their judgement. They want to twist the constitution from "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" "To no one can use a religious belief in their thought process"

Bullshit. (Whoops, there's more brevity.)

[LtMarvel]

Number of documented cases of election fraud with false IDs?......

Oh NOES! There aren't any. This is a cheap GOP trick to keep people without IDs (poor, disabled, elderly...three groups that don't swing for GOP) from voting.

How dictatorship of them.

[rick]

They want to twist the constitution from "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" "To no one can use a religious belief in their thought process"


No, it's actually more along the lines of "You're welcome to believe any dumbass thing that you want to, but you can't use your belief in superstition to make rules for the rest of us."

[Samurai]

Number of documented cases of election fraud with false IDs?......

Oh NOES! There aren't any. This is a cheap GOP trick to keep people without IDs (poor, disabled, elderly...three groups that don't swing for GOP) from voting.

How dictatorship of them.

Why would the poor, disabled, and elderly not have ID? In fact, disabled and elderly probably nearly all have ID because they need it to prove who they are, what conditions they have and can get benefits for, for Medicare/Medicaid, etc. And they are very cheap... $10 at the DMV, so anyone should be able to afford one.

No, the real groups prevented from voting because of ID are cheats (who vote multiple times under different names) and illegals. And yes, it does happen...

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecentersb9d c

Non-Citizen Voting in Federal Elections



In 1996, Congress enacted the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act, making it a federal crime for non-citizens to vote in any federal election (or state election, unless authorized by state law). As a penalty, ineligible non-citizens who knowingly vote may be deported. Additionally, a non-citizen who falsely claims to be a United States citizen is in violation of this law.

However, there are many documented reports of non-citizen voting,[1] [2] and there is no evidence of prosecution of the aliens for their action. With nearly 19 million foreign-born residents who are not U.S. citizens in the country in the 2000 Census and an estimated 9-11 million illegal residents (many of them not also counted in the Census), the potential is enormous for non-citizens to affect the outcome of elections.

Charges were made in at least three federal elections in California [3] [4] and twice in Florida[5] that voting by ineligible aliens may have determined the outcome of the election. For instance:

* In Florida, election observers say a “sizable number” of Florida votes in the 2000 election may have been cast by ineligible felons, illegal immigrants, and non-citizens. [6]
* In California, former Republican Rep. Robert K. Dornan was defeated by Democrat Loretta Sanchez by 984 votes in the 1996 election. State officials found that at least 300 votes were cast illegally by non-citizens.[7]

Investigation of the allegations established that aliens had illegally voted in those elections, but not in sufficient numbers to have changed the result. Authorities appear not to have prosecuted any of the aliens who voted illegally.

It appears that in at least most of these cases, aliens who voted illegally may have done so unknowingly. This is a result of the enactment of The National Voter Registration Act of 1993 (NVRA) ― known as the Motor-Voter law ― which made the process of registering to vote nearly automatic for people applying for a state driver’s license or ID card, and called for distributing registration applications in state welfare offices.[8] Under this law, the information supplied by the applicant for a license doubles as information for voter registration unless the applicant indicates that he/she does not want to be registered to vote.[9] With driver’s licenses made available by several states to aliens (both legal and illegal), it seems likely that voter rolls now contain large numbers of non-citizens ― enough in close elections to change the outcome if those aliens illegally vote.[10] An effort in Congress in 1998 to preclude the registration of non-citizens was narrowly defeated.[11]

It is possible that some illegal aliens applying for driver’s licenses deliberately, rather than accidentally, may seek voter registration, in order to help establish identity for the purposes of illegal employment. The employer sanctions law adopted in 1986 to deter employment of illegal aliens allows a voter registration card to be used as one of the documents that establishes the employee’s identity. That document, plus a Social Security card, is all that is necessary to establish work eligibility.

Compounding the potential for non-citizen voting to corrupt our election process are two other offshoots from the 1993 NVRA. Absentee voting has become ubiquitous, so there is no opportunity for the elections officials to challenge the voter in person as a possible illegal voter or to monitor the voting to assure that the voter is voting independently. And, those who would challenge the eligibility of voters are constrained by protections against intimidation of voters.

The solution to the potential for aliens illegally voting and thereby corrupting elections is obvious. Anyone applying for voter registration who is foreign born should be asked to provide evidence of U.S. citizenship, and that information should be verified with the citizenship records of the Department of Homeland Security.

[FalconX2000]

Its one of the things that always confuses me about the idiot masses. In bush's case, if you made $200,000 or more, there really was no reason whatsoever to vote for him beyond the usual "terrorists out to get me" paranoia. Of course now thanks to his policies that everyone not a conservative warned was bad, those $200,000 folks are joining the rest of us in being on the cusp of entering the lower class. With McCain its the exact same thing only the magic number is $150,000. Same thing though, if you make less then that there is 0 reason to vote for McSame.

I think you meant less for the bolded part.

I agree with your point though.



Seems Obama has found a theme to hammer home on McCain with the homes/out of touch issue. While I don't think the attack is dirty, and it will most certainly be effective, it's a little sad that such huge swaths of even a country like the USA need to be fed over-simplifying themes like this in order to get the message.

[Paul McEnery]

The problem isn't that there is some attempt to make a official state church. The problem is the left is trying to delegitimize people using their religious beliefs in their judgement. They want to twist the constitution from "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" "To no one can use a religious belief in their thought process"

Using the rule of simple inversion, we get the far right's actual thinking.

"Everyone must use a religious belief in their thought process".

[king mob]

If you think you can remove Religious influences from politics without resorting to socialism, or communism...good luck.


You're talking nonsense, there's plenty of conservative governments across the world who have been elected without resorting to bleating on about religion in their campaigns.

[the4thpip]

Gha! Politics as usual!

Just funnier!

http://s3.amazonaws.com/apache.3cdn.net/8a830b268131dd3027_ufm6bnfiz.jpg

[Charles RB]

McCain Doesn't Disagree that We Might Need a Draft (http://www.vetvoice.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=1795)

This deserves to be extremely widely reported.

[section 8]

You're talking nonsense, there's plenty of conservative governments across the world who have been elected without resorting to bleating on about religion in their campaigns.

Be that as it may, it would be nearly impossible to convince a religious person to check their beliefs at the door when they enter the polls.
nor will people of faith ignore said faith when deciding how to vote, be they saint, sinner, or senator.

this being the case, of course there is always going to be those who will exploit dogma for a few extra votes.

[ShaunN]

I think you meant less for the bolded part.

I agree with your point though.



Seems Obama has found a theme to hammer home on McCain with the homes/out of touch issue. While I don't think the attack is dirty, and it will most certainly be effective, it's a little sad that such huge swaths of even a country like the USA need to be fed over-simplifying themes like this in order to get the message.

Dear Friends,

HI! Just popping in on this thread really late, so forgive me for not having followed everything that's come before.

Falcon, I thought that your comment about oversimplification was right on. My sense has been that Obama would like to run a clean campaign about issues, but that is a fairytale. Given the general ignorance of many American voters, the need to oversimplify is unavoidable. But it reminds me of a recent article in the NYT about Obama's time as a professor in Chicago. The final comment in the article was from one of his former students, who lamented that what Obama was saying now, as a politician, was so oversimplified and less interesting/complex than the sort of things he had discussed with his students in the classroom. Again, this was inevitable. Clearly, Obama is a very intelligent man is who capable of seeing many sides of an issue and who understands political and economic complexity. But he is also willing to do what he needs to get elected. It's just unfortunate that the electorate is ignorant enough/too distracted by its own life to necessitate this kind of approach.

Sincerely,

Shaun

[Typo Lad]

Be that as it may, it would be nearly impossible to convince a religious person to check their beliefs at the door when they enter the polls.
nor will people of faith ignore said faith when deciding how to vote, be they saint, sinner, or senator.

this being the case, of course there is always going to be those who will exploit dogma for a few extra votes.
I have to agree with that.

My father is a political speaker who often speaks in synagogues. Part of his standard introduction is "I am not a Rabbi, I am a politician. However, as long as some Rabbis drone endlessly on about politics from the pulpit, I will give the occasional sermon."

That said, there's a difference between voting for policy based on your personal beliefs, and the law-makers checking their religious beliefs at the door when setting policy.

Examples that I know of would be the late Senator Moynihan, D-NY, who had a rep for being Mr. Liberal, but who also was strongly anti-Abortion due to his Catholicism. Lieberman is pro-choice for the same reasons.

It's hard to get religion out of the equation.

[king mob]

Be that as it may, it would be nearly impossible to convince a religious person to check their beliefs at the door when they enter the polls.
nor will people of faith ignore said faith when deciding how to vote, be they saint, sinner, or senator.


Which is entirely different from governments becoming socialist or communist because religion doesn't play a major role, if it even plays a role at all, in the elections of those governments.

this being the case, of course there is always going to be those who will exploit dogma for a few extra votes.

It's certainly the case in the US where there's an extraordinary amount of emphasis upon religion in their elections.

[the4thpip]

He did?

I must have missed that.

In that case... boo. Poor form, sir.

They showed the clip on Larry King Live.

First question for McCain was a jocular "how was it in the cone of silence?" and McCain replied "I put my ear on the wall trying to listen."

Would have been a chance to say, "look, my plane was late, but I am dedicated to fairness so my driver had Abba music playing all the time and we did not check into what Sen. Obama said one bit, I give you my word."

Instead, he lied.

[FalconX2000]

This deserves to be extremely widely reported.

I dunno...I'd give him a pass at least on his intentions toward the draft. From what I saw, he had just heard all that stuff about caring for veterens and had the answer made up in his mind. The part about the draft probably didn't even register. So he said "I don't disagree with anything you just said" and immediately talked about veterens affairs.

Dear Friends,

HI! Just popping in on this thread really late, so forgive me for not having followed everything that's come before.

Falcon, I thought that your comment about oversimplification was right on. My sense has been that Obama would like to run a clean campaign about issues, but that is a fairytale. Given the general ignorance of many American voters, the need to oversimplify is unavoidable. But it reminds me of a recent article in the NYT about Obama's time as a professor in Chicago. The final comment in the article was from one of his former students, who lamented that what Obama was saying now, as a politician, was so oversimplified and less interesting/complex than the sort of things he had discussed with his students in the classroom. Again, this was inevitable. Clearly, Obama is a very intelligent man is who capable of seeing many sides of an issue and who understands political and economic complexity. But he is also willing to do what he needs to get elected. It's just unfortunate that the electorate is ignorant enough/too distracted by its own life to necessitate this kind of approach.

Sincerely,

Shaun

Relax man. It's a forum; no need to write each post like a letter.

And yeah, that is certainly the case. It's pretty clear that what hinders Obama most during political debates is his natural inclination to naunced, intelligent answers. That should be an oxymoron, but unfortunately it isn't.



As for the politics and religion topic that's been brought up, I would point out that for all the moral guidance religion is supposed to give, a Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Atheist or person of any other belief besides Judaism or Christianity is faced with huge problems based solely on that label.

[Infra-Man]

John McCain doesn't think Americans would pick lettuce for $50 an hour.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12155322/

excerpted from the AP:
But he took more questions, including a pointed one on his immigration plan.

McCain responded by saying immigrants were taking jobs nobody else wanted. He offered anybody in the crowd $50 an hour to pick lettuce in Arizona.

Shouts of protest rose from the crowd, with some accepting McCain’s job offer.

“I’ll take it!” one man shouted.

McCain insisted none of them would do such menial labor for a complete season. “You can’t do it, my friends.”

Some in the crowd said they didn’t appreciate McCain questioning their work ethic.

[the4thpip]

John McCain doesn't think Americans would pick lettuce for $50 an hour.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12155322/

excerpted from the AP:

$50? Is he that far out of touch with how much field workers make per hour, or did he meant to say that Americans are so delicate they won't do that kind of work even for top dollar?

Either way, a disastrous appearance. :eek:

[Infra-Man]

$50? Is he that far out of touch with how much field workers make per hour, or did he meant to say that Americans are so delicate they won't do that kind of work even for top dollar?

Either way, a disastrous appearance. :eek:

Probably a bit of the latter, essentially that the work is so menial that no American would do it, even at $50 an hour. That's more than twice what I make and while I don't doubt it'd be rough work, I'm sure you'd find many hard-working Americans willing to do it for that much pay.

And you know what? I would take a break from freelancing and work a field for two months at $50 an hour and make about $16k or more. Hell, I'd put $11k of that in the bank and use the rest to go on a really nice vacation somewhere during the off season.

[KevinTBrown]

And Bush attempts to undercut Obama's promise/goal to have the troops out of Iraq 16 months after taking office:

http://news.yahoo.com/story//ap/20080822/ap_on_re_mi_ea/us_iraq

At LEAST they're working on getting the troops out.... but 2011?? :eek:

[KevinTBrown]

$50? Is he that far out of touch with how much field workers make per hour, or did he meant to say that Americans are so delicate they won't do that kind of work even for top dollar?

Either way, a disastrous appearance. :eek:

Hey, for a guy who can't remember that he has 7 or 8 houses, you expect him to be a "numbers person"...? :rolleyes:

[Typo Lad]

As for the politics and religion topic that's been brought up, I would point out that for all the moral guidance religion is supposed to give, a Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Atheist or person of any other belief besides Judaism or Christianity is faced with huge problems based solely on that label.

I'm curious... why do you think Jews somehow get a free pass?

[KevinTBrown]

It's being rumored that Obama is going to announce his Vice President choice today: http://news.yahoo.com/story//ap/20080822/ap_on_el_pr/veepstakes

While I personally would like to see him select Kansas Governor Kathleen Sebelius, I strongly suspect he'll be picking Indiana Senator Evan Bayh.

[Rik Levins]

Hey, for a guy who can't remember that he has 7 or 8 houses... :rolleyes:

GMA did a piece on this earlier today and found a few more, so the total is 10 houses now.

[Sean Walsh]

It's being rumored that Obama is going to announce his Vice President choice today: http://news.yahoo.com/story//ap/20080822/ap_on_el_pr/veepstakes

Considering they're supposed to be campaigning together tomorrow, this would make sense. :tongue:

While I personally would like to see him select Kansas Governor Kathleen Sebelius, I strongly suspect he'll be picking Indiana Senator Evan Bayh.

Has Sebelius been a wide spread choice? This is the 2nd time today I've heard her name mentioned - in 2 different places (here, and one of the local non-political radio shows).

[KevinTBrown]

Considering they're supposed to be campaigning together tomorrow, this would make sense. :tongue:



Has Sebelius been a wide spread choice? This is the 2nd time today I've heard her name mentioned - in 2 different places (here, and one of the local non-political radio shows).

She's a Democratic Governor of a predominantly Republican state (KS) and is the daughter of a very popular former Governor (OH).

[Charles RB]

$50? Is he that far out of touch with how much field workers make per hour, or did he meant to say that Americans are so delicate they won't do that kind of work even for top dollar?

It'd be horrible and dull, but I think I could stomach it for (assuming an 8-hour day) one thousand pounds per week.

[Infra-Man]

It'd be horrible and dull, but I think I could stomach it for (assuming an 8-hour day) one thousand pounds per week.

That's some money... forgot the exchange rate.

[Matt Doc Martin]

Did you watch the link? pay close attention to the conversation from 0:55 to 1:17
(hint: it was a critique' on Michael's Brevity, and lack of substance within his post)

For that matter did you READ my posts?
I said they were Indivisible not one and the same.

If you think you can remove Religious influences from politics without resorting to socialism, or communism...good luck.

but pay attention, lest you look "asinine"

Perhaps if you consulted a dictionary about what the word "indivisible" means?

[FalconX2000]

I'm curious... why do you think Jews somehow get a free pass?

They don't. But from what I understand it's better than it used to be.

Aside from Keith Ellison, I'm struggling to think of any prominent politician who is not Jewish or Christian.


As for McCain's $50 an hour thing...my God, he doesn't even think it's a gaffe! That was a prepared line!:eek:

[Typo Lad]

They don't. But from what I understand it's better than it used to be.

"Better than it used to be" is a relative term.

It's easier to be Jewish in DC than say, 30 years ago, but as an every-day Jewish person, you still run into a lot of hate.

[Samurai]

They don't. But from what I understand it's better than it used to be.

Aside from Keith Ellison, I'm struggling to think of any prominent politician who is not Jewish or Christian.


As for McCain's $50 an hour thing...my God, he doesn't even think it's a gaffe! That was a prepared line!:eek:

It wasn't a gaffe... he was saying he doesn't think Americans would do it for a whole season even for $50 an hour.

And Charles, it's not 8 hour days 5 days a week, it is minimum 10 hour days (often more like 12) 6-7 days a week. Still, at $50/hr, I'm sure there'd be some Americans still willing to do it. But at $8 per hour (or less), which is what it really pays, not very many without other changes in the system. For instance, if welfare were eliminated and people had a choice of working these tough jobs or starving, there'd be workers...

[KevinTBrown]

It wasn't a gaffe... he was saying he doesn't think Americans would do it for a whole season even for $50 an hour.

And Charles, it's not 8 hour days 5 days a week, it is minimum 10 hour days (often more like 12) 6-7 days a week. Still, at $50/hr, I'm sure there'd be some Americans still willing to do it. But at $8 per hour (or less), which is what it really pays, not very many without other changes in the system. For instance, if welfare were eliminated and people had a choice of working these tough jobs or starving, there'd be workers...

For $50 an hour, fuck yeah I'd do it. If McCain doesn't think "many Americans" would pick lettuce, then he's woefully out of touch. You ask anyone if they'd do it for that amount of money, odds are more than 50% will say they would do it.

Even at 10-12 hour days 6-7 days a week, it's still more than worth it. On the low end, it's $3,000 a week; on the high end, it's $4,200. So you'll have people earning, before taxes, somewhere between $156,000 to 218,400 a year.

Yeah, point me to that job!


That's not a gaffe by McCain, that's pure idiocy to say that.



Edited to add: One thing though, if people are going to be putting in that many hours, there will be "over time" and time and half pay for anything over 40 hours. So the wages will also increase.

[Samurai]

For $50 an hour, fuck yeah I'd do it. If McCain doesn't think "many Americans" would pick lettuce, then he's woefully out of touch. You ask anyone if they'd do it for that amount of money, odds are more than 50% will say they would do it.

Even at 10-12 hour days 6-7 days a week, it's still more than worth it. On the low end, it's $3,000 a week; on the high end, it's $4,200. So you'll have people earning, before taxes, somewhere between $156,000 to 218,400 a year.

Yeah, point me to that job!


That's not a gaffe by McCain, that's pure idiocy to say that.

Many would try it out for a few days or weeks, but how many would stick with it, day in and day out, for months? I think some would, especially at $50/hr. Not sure how many, though. McCain was using hyperbole when he said "no one would". I think it could be done, but it'd need other changes to really succeed.

[Charles RB]

And Charles, it's not 8 hour days 5 days a week, it is minimum 10 hour days (often more like 12) 6-7 days a week.

So at $50 an hour there'd be EVEN MORE money than I previously thought?

Why wouldn't Americans do this for the dosh again?

For instance, if welfare were eliminated and people had a choice of working these tough jobs or starving, there'd be workers...

And there'd also be people starving.

Which means people dying.

[Royal]

Many would try it out for a few days or weeks, but how many would stick with it, day in and day out, for months?

A metric fucking ton!!!!

[Samurai]

So at $50 an hour there'd be EVEN MORE money than I previously thought?

Why wouldn't Americans do this for the dosh again?



And there'd also be people starving.

Which means people dying.

Yeah, but if you give people a choice of sitting home and collecting enough money to eat and put a roof over their head, or working 10-12 hr days, 6-7 days a week in 100-110 degree California sun beating down on you, doing exhausting, boring, repetitive, dirty manual labor all day, many will say "I'll take the easy money, even though it's far less, thank you...". Or work enough to get ahead, go and relax and spend it all, come back and want to work a little more, etc

[KevinTBrown]

Many would try it out for a few days or weeks, but how many would stick with it, day in and day out, for months? I think some would, especially at $50/hr. Not sure how many, though. McCain was using hyperbole when he said "no one would". I think it could be done, but it'd need other changes to really succeed.

I would.

Would you?

Would anyone here?

Seriously.

Yeah, it's tough work, but at $50 an hour it's still worth it.



Again, McCain is woefully out of touch. Good, honest, hard working people will do the tough jobs if they're getting paid appropriately. And with the way the economy is currently, I personally wouldn't be surprised to see even more than half jump at the chance to do something like this. Even if only for a month.

[Typo Lad]

I'm sorry, Samurai, aren't you basically saying McCain thinks the Average American is unwilling to do hard work?

Because hey... that's just obnoxious.

[LtMarvel]

Why would the poor, disabled, and elderly not have ID? In fact, disabled and elderly probably nearly all have ID because they need it to prove who they are, what conditions they have and can get benefits for, for Medicare/Medicaid, etc. And they are very cheap... $10 at the DMV, so anyone should be able to afford one.

No, the real groups prevented from voting because of ID are cheats (who vote multiple times under different names) and illegals. And yes, it does happen...

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecentersb9d c
Bzzt. Wrong again (http://votetrustusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2884&Itemid=113).

"Cheap" as in like a poll tax?

Preventing people from voting is the way of tyrants, not the American way.

[KevinTBrown]

Yeah, but if you give people a choice of sitting home and collecting enough money to eat and put a roof over their head, or working 10-12 hr days, 6-7 days a week in 100-110 degree California sun beating down on you, doing exhausting, boring, repetitive, dirty manual labor all day, many will say "I'll take the easy money, even though it's far less, thank you...".

Uh, I don't think so.....

In CA, you'd get $20,687 a year on welfare.

Picking lettuce you can get a minimum of $125,000 (once you figure out the taxes).

Sitting on your ass loses you, at the very least, a hundred grand in that scenario.


I don't care how lazy people can be. When you give them a choice, I think they'll see the $$ in their eyes.

[Samurai]

I'm sorry, Samurai, aren't you basically saying McCain thinks the Average American is unwilling to do hard work?

Because hey... that's just obnoxious.

I don't think that's what he's saying... It's not just "hard work", it's extremely long hours, all week and including weekends with no break, out in blazing hot conditions, doing boring, repetitive work, and keep doing it for the whole season. Yes, some would do it. Especially at $50/hr. McCain is wrong that "no one" would, and I'm sure that was simple hyperbole. I don't know how many would keep at it though, especially if it were dropped to a more realistic wage.

[Samurai]

Bzzt. Wrong again (http://votetrustusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2884&Itemid=113).

"Cheap" as in like a poll tax?

Preventing people from voting is the way of tyrants, not the American way.

That's a unique situation, and even if she no longer drives, she can get an ID at the DMV based on her old license.

And it's not a "poll tax" anymore than requiring ID to buy alcohol or tobacco, get into an R movie, etc requires a "tax" of having some form of ID.

[Grazzt]

That's a unique situation, and even if she no longer drives, she can get an ID at the DMV based on her old license.

But how unique is it really? I imagine there are plenty of people born in certain times and places where finding the proper records is hard to do.

Really, they should have grandfathered in people above the age of, say, fifty, or people who've already voted in a certain number of elections, rather than risk denying people the fundamental right of a democracy.

[FalconX2000]

$50 an hour to put in manual labour under the sun? Comon man, that's practically the American dream.

Of course, no farmer is going to pay somebody $50 an hour to pick lettuce. Especially since they've got illegal labour going for below the minimum wage.

I'm a little confused. Does McCain actually think farmers are paying illegal workers $50 an hour?:confused: I'm no expert on wages in such fields, but I'd think that would send vegetable prices skyrocketing.

[Typo Lad]

I don't think that's what he's saying... It's not just "hard work", it's extremely long hours, all week and including weekends with no break, out in blazing hot conditions, doing boring, repetitive work, and keep doing it for the whole season. Yes, some would do it. Especially at $50/hr. McCain is wrong that "no one" would, and I'm sure that was simple hyperbole. I don't know how many would keep at it though, especially if it were dropped to a more realistic wage.
You may not realize it, but you're moving the goalposts a tad.

McCain asked a question, assuming the answer would be no. When told yes, he told the people saying it "No, no you wouldn't".

The implication, deliberate or accidental, is that he thinks the average person is not willing to do hard work for fair pay.

You, personally, then bring that home by saying:

Yeah, but if you give people a choice of sitting home and collecting enough money to eat and put a roof over their head, or working 10-12 hr days, 6-7 days a week in 100-110 degree California sun beating down on you, doing exhausting, boring, repetitive, dirty manual labor all day, many will say "I'll take the easy money, even though it's far less, thank you...". Or work enough to get ahead, go and relax and spend it all, come back and want to work a little more, etc

I mean wow. I thought Obama was supposed to be the Elitist!

[LtMarvel]

That's a unique situation, and even if she no longer drives, she can get an ID at the DMV based on her old license.

And it's not a "poll tax" anymore than requiring ID to buy alcohol or tobacco, get into an R movie, etc requires a "tax" of having some form of ID.
No she can't.

Buying alcohol/movie ticket isn't a right of citizenship.

Voting is.

Requiring Americans to spend money to be eligible to vote is a poll tax.

[Typo Lad]

But how unique is it really? I imagine there are plenty of people born in certain times and places where finding the proper records is hard to do.

My maternal grandparents, both born in the US, do not know their exact birthdates and have no such records.


Of course, no farmer is going to pay somebody $50 an hour to pick lettuce. Especially since they've got illegal labour going for below the minimum wage.

I'm a little confused. Does McCain actually think farmers are paying illegal workers $50 an hour?:confused: I'm no expert on wages in such fields, but I'd think that would send vegetable prices skyrocketing.

Heh. I think part of the issue is that McCain shouldn't have said a set number. It's like his defining "rich" as "people who make $5mil" . It makes him come off as completely out of touch with the American Fiscal situation. Which frankly, he most likely is. I doubt Senator Obama is all that much better, as they're both rather well-to-do.

The difference is, McCain's advisor's don't seem to be feeding him the hard numbers he needs to sound like he knows.

[FalconX2000]

I don't know anywhere near enough on the issue, so I'm not coming down on either side here. However, if ID does not need to be shown, what prevents Mexicans, illegal workers, Canadians...anybody from voting as if they were U.S. citizens?

[KevinTBrown]

My maternal grandparents, both born in the US, do not know their exact birthdates and have no such records.



Heh. I think part of the issue is that McCain shouldn't have said a set number. It's like his defining "rich" as "people who make $5mil" . It makes him come off as completely out of touch with the American Fiscal situation. Which frankly, he most likely is. I doubt Senator Obama is all that much better, as they're both rather well-to-do.

The difference is, McCain's advisor's don't seem to be feeding him the hard numbers he needs to sound like he knows.

Well, one of the biggest differences between McCain and Obama in terms of their financials is this:

McCain had an affair with Cindy, divorced his first wife, and married into it. He didn't earn a dime of it.

Obama earned every penny with hard work and determination. What pushed him into the millions is his book deal. Without that, then he's making whatever a State Senator is making.

[Typo Lad]

I don't know anywhere near enough on the issue, so I'm not coming down on either side here. However, if ID does not need to be shown, what prevents Mexicans, illegal workers, Canadians...anybody from voting as if they were U.S. citizens?
It's a good question, to be sure. All I know is IDs don't seem like the best answer.

[FalconX2000]

My maternal grandparents, both born in the US, do not know their exact birthdates and have no such records.



Heh. I think part of the issue is that McCain shouldn't have said a set number. It's like his defining "rich" as "people who make $5mil" . It makes him come off as completely out of touch with the American Fiscal situation. Which frankly, he most likely is. I doubt Senator Obama is all that much better, as they're both rather well-to-do.

The difference is, McCain's advisor's don't seem to be feeding him the hard numbers he needs to sound like he knows.


I'd just point out that Obama only started rolling in money when his book sales picked up around 3 years ago. In the 1990s up till early 2000s, he was working 3 jobs as a civil rights attorney, lecturer and state senator and his university loans weren't paid off yet.

[Stressfactor]

The last time I voted (four years ago) I was told I could present a picture ID OR a paycheck stub with my address on it OR other proof that I lived where I said I did like a water bill, gas bill, or electric bill with my name and address on it.

What they are wanting NOW is a photo ID and the DMV in my state is also requiring you present your birth certificate to get or renew your license. NOT a social security card (oh hell no, because I actually HAD that the last time I needed to renew) but your Birth Certificate.

The last time I needed to renew my drivers' license I had to call my mom and have her send me my Birth Certificate because she had it in with all her papers still.

[Sean Walsh]

She's a Democratic Governor of a predominantly Republican state (KS) and is the daughter of a very popular former Governor (OH).

Is the Lt. Governor a Republican? If so, that'd DQ her - Dems tend not to like letting Repubs inherit governorships like that (and vice versa, I'm sure).


Apparently this congressman Chet Edwards (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D92NF8SG0&show_article=1) (D-Texas) has become a big name for Obama's VP all of a sudden. What's interesting is that his voting record is very unObama-like (for drilling in Anwr, for repealing state taxs, against interstate abortion, etc.), yet Nancy Pelosi and many other House Dems really like the guy.

[Samurai]

I don't know anywhere near enough on the issue, so I'm not coming down on either side here. However, if ID does not need to be shown, what prevents Mexicans, illegal workers, Canadians...anybody from voting as if they were U.S. citizens?

Absolutely nothing.

And there's also nothing preventing a person from voting multiple times, giving a different name each time. They do check off your name on the list of registered voters when you vote, so you couldn't vote under your own name multiple times. But if you happen to know the names of other registered voters (or you registered under several names yourself), you can vote multiple times. Yes, it's against the law, but people are prosecuted for it about as often as jaywalking. And with millions and millions of illegals in the country, and the usual fraud as well, we need IDs being shown to help curb some of this.

[Samurai]

The last time I voted (four years ago) I was told I could present a picture ID OR a paycheck stub with my address on it OR other proof that I lived where I said I did like a water bill, gas bill, or electric bill with my name and address on it.

What they are wanting NOW is a photo ID and the DMV in my state is also requiring you present your birth certificate to get or renew your license. NOT a social security card (oh hell no, because I actually HAD that the last time I needed to renew) but your Birth Certificate.

The last time I needed to renew my drivers' license I had to call my mom and have her send me my Birth Certificate because she had it in with all her papers still.

I wasn't asked for any ID last time, just "What is your name? Ok, sign here"

[Grazzt]

With the importance of photo IDs in modern society, I don't see why the U.S. (and any other developped nation, really) government just doesn't issue everyone one for free. Especially if you need them to vote.

[Stressfactor]

I wasn't asked for any ID last time, just "What is your name? Ok, sign here"

I was. In fact, my voter card said to bring TWO forms of ID so I brought a paycheck stub as well as my driver's license but in the end, the person asked for my ID and I showed my DL and was starting to get out my paycheck stub and they said "OK, sign here" before I could get it out.

But make no mistake, they DID ask me to present ID.

Sounds to me like the problem isn't so much with people's ID's but with lazy or ill-trained poll workers who do not follow the rules that they should.

[Stressfactor]

With the importance of photo IDs in modern society, I don't see why the U.S. (and any other developped nation, really) government just doesn't issue everyone one for free. Especially if you need them to vote.

Now see -- THIS is what I don't understand. I mean, I understand that the whole Driver's License part of it is basically you paying for the priviledge of being able to drive a car and pay the salaries of those people who have to test your eyes and grade your Driver's License tests, and take you out on the driving test course BUT when ALL you want is a LEGAL, PHOTO ID I don't see why the state government gets to charge you for it.

[KevinTBrown]

Now see -- THIS is what I don't understand. I mean, I understand that the whole Driver's License part of it is basically you paying for the priviledge of being able to drive a car and pay the salaries of those people who have to test your eyes and grade your Driver's License tests, and take you out on the driving test course BUT when ALL you want is a LEGAL, PHOTO ID I don't see why the state government gets to charge you for it.

They still need to process the paperwork, do the work of adding your name, address, etc., and take your picture which then gives you a small plastic card. Not sure if there's a difference in price, but it makes sense to be charged to just get an ID.

[Grazzt]

They still need to process the paperwork, do the work of adding your name, address, etc., and take your picture which then gives you a small plastic card. Not sure if there's a difference in price, but it makes sense to be charged to just get an ID.

If you need photo ID to vote, then it should be on the government's tab.

Otherwise, they should simply accept pay stubs or proofs of residence.

[Paul McEnery]

The last time I voted (four years ago) I was told I could present a picture ID OR a paycheck stub with my address on it OR other proof that I lived where I said I did like a water bill, gas bill, or electric bill with my name and address on it.

What they are wanting NOW is a photo ID and the DMV in my state is also requiring you present your birth certificate to get or renew your license. NOT a social security card (oh hell no, because I actually HAD that the last time I needed to renew) but your Birth Certificate.

The last time I needed to renew my drivers' license I had to call my mom and have her send me my Birth Certificate because she had it in with all her papers still.

Exactly. Put enough hurdles in the way, and people won't be bothered.

Especially if it's going to cost them scads of money. And in this economy!

[Paul McEnery]

With the importance of photo IDs in modern society, I don't see why the U.S. (and any other developped nation, really) government just doesn't issue everyone one for free. Especially if you need them to vote.

That's granting more than I would.

When I first came to California, I was outraged that I was forced to get photo ID. Visions of "can I see your papers, sir". And I still can't see why people stand for it.

[KevinTBrown]

If you need photo ID to vote, then it should be on the government's tab.

Otherwise, they should simply accept pay stubs or proofs of residence.

But they're not proof of US citizenship.

[Paul McEnery]

But they're not proof of US citizenship.

You know what's proof of citizenship? Being on the list.

[Grazzt]

But they're not proof of US citizenship.

Actually, a pay stub would be, wouldn't it? If there are any doubts, they just have to check your social insurance number with your employer.

Edit: I mean social security number for you guys. Up here they're called social insurance number, but they're functionally similar.

[KevinTBrown]

Actually, a pay stub would be, wouldn't it? If there are any doubts, they just have to check your social insurance number with your employer.

Edit: I mean social security number for you guys. Up here they're called social insurance number, but they're functionally similar.

You, as a Canadian, could have a work visa to hold a job here in the US, but that doesn't make you a US citizen.

[Grazzt]

You, as a Canadian, could have a work visa to hold a job here in the US, but that doesn't make you a US citizen.

Yes, but I would (I imagine) be issued a social security number that reflects that. I know that's how it works up here: all temporary residents have SINs that begin with the number 9.

And even without a simple system like that, the U.S. government probably knows which social security numbers belong to foreign nationals and which belong to U.S. citizens. They just have to crossreference the number if they have any suspicions.

[Typo Lad]

Basically why I did not have a state ID until forced to by my Mortgage company.

I was doubly irked because I *had* a passport. Sure, it was about 15 years old, but it was Federally issued ID.

[Corrina]

That's granting more than I would.

When I first came to California, I was outraged that I was forced to get photo ID. Visions of "can I see your papers, sir". And I still can't see why people stand for it.

Paraphrasing Heinlein's Lazarus Long, once a society starts making you carry identification papers at all times, it's time to get out.

[Grazzt]

Paraphrasing Heinlein's Lazarus Long, once a society starts making you carry identification papers at all times, it's time to get out.

That's jumping a bit, isn't it? All I'm saying is that if voting requires a photo ID, then the government should be responsible for making sure free photo ID is available to its voters. You don't have to carry it around at all times, and you don't have to get it if you don't want to vote or have some other form of photo ID already.

[Charles RB]

Yeah, but if you give people a choice of sitting home and collecting enough money to eat and put a roof over their head, or working 10-12 hr days, 6-7 days a week in 100-110 degree California sun beating down on you, doing exhausting, boring, repetitive, dirty manual labor all day, many will say "I'll take the easy money, even though it's far less, thank you...".

Please clarify - are you actually saying we should scrap welfare?

Are you actually advocating this?

I'm sorry, Samurai, aren't you basically saying McCain thinks the Average American is unwilling to do hard work?

Because hey... that's just obnoxious.

Yep.

Oh, but it's Obama that's the elitist. McCain's the straight-talking man of the people.

[FalconX2000]

If you need photo ID to vote, then it should be on the government's tab.

Otherwise, they should simply accept pay stubs or proofs of residence.

If someone is getting the ID for the first time, of course.

if someone lost his or her ID and needs another one, I'd say he or she needs to pay to get a replacement.

If a means can be devised such that this can be kept track of (assuming it doesn't exist already), then it should be implemented.

[Paul McEnery]

Basically why I did not have a state ID until forced to by my Mortgage company.

I was doubly irked because I *had* a passport. Sure, it was about 15 years old, but it was Federally issued ID.

Yup. I don't drive, so I don't have a driver's licence.

It would irritate me to have to go and get what is effectively a drinking licence from the DMV.

As it happens, I'm legally obliged to carry my Green Card. And you'd be surprised how many people don't think of that as acceptable ID.

[Paul McEnery]

If someone is getting the ID for the first time, of course.

if someone lost his or her ID and needs another one, I'd say he or she needs to pay to get a replacement.

If a means can be devised such that this can be kept track of (assuming it doesn't exist already), then it should be implemented.

This is no longer true with Green Cards, btw; because of a law suit.

And quite right too. The state makes you have the bloody thing, you pay taxes, let the state pay.

[Paul McEnery]

Yes, but I would (I imagine) be issued a social security number that reflects that. I know that's how it works up here: all temporary residents have SINs that begin with the number 9.

And even without a simple system like that, the U.S. government probably knows which social security numbers belong to foreign nationals and which belong to U.S. citizens. They just have to crossreference the number if they have any suspicions.

Yes, but it's not even that necessary.

The polling booth has a list of people who are allowed to vote there. You can't vote at the wrong polling booth. So a non-citizen CAN'T vote.

[Paul McEnery]

Please clarify - are you actually saying we should scrap welfare?

Are you actually advocating this? .

Kill kill kill the poor, Kill kill kill the poor, Kill kill kill the poor Toniiiiiiight!

[FalconX2000]

This is no longer true with Green Cards, btw; because of a law suit.

And quite right too. The state makes you have the bloody thing, you pay taxes, let the state pay.

Well, I don't actually pay state taxes. I'm Singaporean.

[LtMarvel]

Are there any cases of voter fraud that would have been prevented by photo id?

[Paul McEnery]

Are there any cases of voter fraud that would have been prevented by photo id?

Well, I'm sure all those dead people might have found it harder.

[Corrina]

No, because the election workers were clearly in on the scam, in most cases.

The easiest way to fix an election is to have an 'in' with the people counting or checking on whether someone is a registered voter. This ID thing does not solve the problem in the least.

As for having ID and Heinlein's quotes, well, he had a real strong libertarian streak. But on many things, he was correct, especially lately about how screwed up it is that blasphemy of any religion being a crime.

There are far more places where I need ID now than I don't need ID. I don't view that as a good thing, I view that as society getting too unwieldy and not trusting itself. Which means it's starting to creak and tilt at the edges.

This is not a good thing.

On the VEEP, Obama's VP choice will either show he's going to take a bold gamble and go with a qualified female candidate and really push through this message of change or he's going to play it really safe and go for an upstanding white guy (Jim Webb) to reassure the masses.

Whichever way he jumps will tell me a lot about how he's going to make decisions as president.

The only way he could really play it down the middle of those two choices would be Bill Richardson, upstanding citizen who can pass for white.

[Paul McEnery]

No, because the election workers were clearly in on the scam, in most cases.

The easiest way to fix an election is to have an 'in' with the people counting or checking on whether someone is a registered voter. This ID thing does not solve the problem in the least.

As for having ID and Heinlein's quotes, well, he had a real strong libertarian streak. But on many things, he was correct, especially lately about how screwed up it is that blasphemy of any religion being a crime.

There are far more places where I need ID now than I don't need ID. I don't view that as a good thing, I view that as society getting too unwieldy and not trusting itself. Which means it's starting to creak and tilt at the edges.

This is not a good thing.

On the VEEP, Obama's VP choice will either show he's going to take a bold gamble and go with a qualified female candidate and really push through this message of change or he's going to play it really safe and go for an upstanding white guy (Jim Webb) to reassure the masses.

Whichever way he jumps will tell me a lot about how he's going to make decisions as president.

The only way he could really play it down the middle of those two choices would be Bill Richardson, upstanding citizen who can pass for white.

Is there any reason he can't pick Batman?

[cactusmaac]

Webb isn't interested. Richardson isn't a prospect since he's apparently had a few bimbo eruptions in the past.

[Charles RB]

Kill kill kill the poor, Kill kill kill the poor, Kill kill kill the poor Toniiiiiiight!

But then who will empty my bin every week, and deliver the milk, and talk differently so we can make jokes about them?

Is there any reason he can't pick Batman?

I reread part of The Boys today, so when Corrina said "VEEP" I suddenly thought of Obama on a ticket with Vic The Veep.

Terrifying.

[Sabrinaset]

Apparently, there's rumors of a place printing up Obama/Bayh bumper stickers out there ...

Oh, and Hillary was apparently never even vetted. The headline? Hillary gets stiffed (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12713.html)... well, I don't think Hillary has been stiffed in a long time! :biggrin:

[KevinTBrown]

On the VEEP, Obama's VP choice will either show he's going to take a bold gamble and go with a qualified female candidate and really push through this message of change or he's going to play it really safe and go for an upstanding white guy (Jim Webb) to reassure the masses.

Whichever way he jumps will tell me a lot about how he's going to make decisions as president.

The only way he could really play it down the middle of those two choices would be Bill Richardson, upstanding citizen who can pass for white.

Either Kathleen Sebelius or Chet Edwards.

And I've been saying Sebelius for MONTHS now. :wink:

Richardson, as far as "insiders" have "reported", is not a part of the list of VP choices.

[KevinTBrown]

Oh, and Hillary was apparently never even vetted. The headline? Hillary gets stiffed (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12713.html)... well, I don't think Hillary has been stiffed in a long time! :biggrin:

You act surprised!

:tongue:

[Paul McEnery]

I am now thinking it should be Obama/Bloomberg, because that sounds like a warm motherly Jewish Black woman who likes to make you cookies.

[Matt Doc Martin]

Either Kathleen Sebelius or Chet Edwards.

And I've been saying Sebelius for MONTHS now. :wink:

Richardson, as far as "insiders" have "reported", is not a part of the list of VP choices.

Or Joseph Biden.

[Sabrinaset]

Or Joseph Biden.

If Biden gets picked, he'll be a sitting duck. (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=7415961&postcount=4493)

[Briareos]

Since this is our general poli thread now i guess the top cities that lead the U.S. in poverty have long unbroken histories of Democrat mayors:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/20/beck.cities/index.html

[darkhanamaru]

If Biden gets picked, he'll be a sitting duck. (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=7415961&postcount=4493)

if he is picked, i will be very very surprised.

[Infra-Man]

Looks like it's Obama/Bayh

http://thepage.time.com/2008/08/22/newsrooms-on-fire/

EDIT:
Get your grains of salt ready with that one.

[Paul McEnery]

Since this is our general poli thread now i guess the top cities that lead the U.S. in poverty have long unbroken histories of Democrat mayors:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/20/beck.cities/index.html

Were you in the room, I'd get to have three free punches because you reminded me Glenn Beck exists.

[KevinTBrown]

Looks like it's Obama/Bayh

http://thepage.time.com/2008/08/22/newsrooms-on-fire/

EDIT:
Get your grains of salt ready with that one.

Hm. Don't think so.

IF that had this logo incorporated in it:

http://pasadenaforobama.org/images/08_logoLRG.jpg

Then I'd be more willing to believe it.

[Infra-Man]

According to MSNBC right now, Bayh and Kaine were told they will NOT be the VP.

Looks like Biden, most likely.

[Corrina]

Biden would be a horrible choice.

[Michael P]

Any particular reason why?

[KevinTBrown]

According to MSNBC right now, Bayh and Kaine were told they will NOT be the VP.

Looks like Biden, most likely.

Not bloody well likely. And I certainly do not believe Biden is on any "short list" of Obama's for VP.

[Corrina]

Biden would be a horrible choice.

If you ran as the outsider candidate trying to clean up Washington and make it safe for the people, you don't pick a senator with a long-time cred in Washington AND who's best known for plaigerizing speeches and for a brain tumor.

Yes, yes, I know Biden's qualifications. But I bet if you ask a random person about Biden, those are the two things they remember, if they remember him at all.

[Matt Doc Martin]

If you ran as the outsider candidate trying to clean up Washington and make it safe for the people, you don't pick a senator with a long-time cred in Washington AND who's best known for plaigerizing speeches and for a brain tumor.

Yes, yes, I know Biden's qualifications. But I bet if you ask a random person about Biden, those are the two things they remember, if they remember him at all.

As long as it is not Hillary....

[section 8]

Biden would be a horrible choice.



No No!
Gary Coleman THAT would be a horrible choice

[Sabrinaset]

As long as it is not Hillary....

If Obama wants me to NOT vote for him, that's the easiest way to do it. But don't worry there ... Hillary has been stiffed. It might be the first time in well over a decade she HAS been stiffed, but it has occured!

Speaking of which, it seems her support for Obama has been pretty tepid ... (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/22/us/politics/22clinton.html)

...and she's still pretty deeply in debt. (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/22/disclosure-reports-show-clinton-still-deeply-in-debt/)

[Infra-Man]

If Obama wants me to NOT vote for him, that's the easiest way to do it. But don't worry there ... Hillary has been stiffed. It might be the first time in well over a decade she HAS been stiffed, but it has occured!

If the reports I heard earlier tonight were true, looks like Hillary was never vetted for VP.

I guess we'll find out what happens tomorrow.

...and she's still pretty deeply in debt. (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/22/disclosure-reports-show-clinton-still-deeply-in-debt/)

To be fair, I'll be in about as much debt if I get into Columbia. :eek:

"But Gordon Lish taught there," I'd remind myself while selling my plasma for Top Ramen.

[Matt Doc Martin]

If Obama wants me to NOT vote for him, that's the easiest way to do it. But don't worry there ... Hillary has been stiffed. It might be the first time in well over a decade she HAS been stiffed, but it has occured!

Speaking of which, it seems her support for Obama has been pretty tepid ... (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/22/us/politics/22clinton.html)

...and she's still pretty deeply in debt. (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/22/disclosure-reports-show-clinton-still-deeply-in-debt/)


My biggest fear was that Obama would pick Hillary while McCain would pick Romney or Huckabee.

I would abstain from voting then.

[Royal]

Coming October...

McCain '08: Cause Obama Likes Picking On Old People.

[Novaya Havoc]

If Obama wants me to NOT vote for him, that's the easiest way to do it. But don't worry there ... Hillary has been stiffed. It might be the first time in well over a decade she HAS been stiffed, but it has occured!

Speaking of which, it seems her support for Obama has been pretty tepid ... (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/22/us/politics/22clinton.html)

...and she's still pretty deeply in debt. (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/22/disclosure-reports-show-clinton-still-deeply-in-debt/)

Regarding links about her "tepid" support:

Nah. Hillary has been VERY gracious to Obama. What do they want her to do? Chain-blow randoms for Obama votes?

She suspended WAY before the convention (historical precedent) and has been nothing but "We need Obama in the White House. Vote Democratic." The whole nine yards.

I think Obama not picking her as his VP though is going to cause him to lose and lose hard, though.

[section 8]

Obama SHOULD pick CLinton, if for no other reason than the fact that the GOP seems to be scared shitless of her to this day!

[Sabrinaset]

I think Obama not picking her as his VP though is going to cause him to lose and lose hard, though.

Oh I strongly disagree with you there. Hillary is WAAAY too polarizing, and there's too many Republicans/Conservatives ... people who Obama needs to have jump ship and vote for him ... who couldn't wait to vote AGAINST Hill, even as a veep. Even the mega-socialists at work can't stand her, and that's saying something!

[Novaya Havoc]

Oh I strongly disagree with you there. Hillary is WAAAY too polarizing, and there's too many Republicans/Conservatives ... people who Obama needs to have jump ship and vote for him ... who couldn't wait to vote AGAINST Hill, even as a veep. Even the mega-socialists at work can't stand her, and that's saying something!

PUMA Dems like myself won't vote Obama, though, Sabs.

I was also a Michigan Primary voter, and that shit stings like a B.

Picking Hill as a VP would make the ticket a juggernaut. Without her? Uphill battle, as his electoral map shows (http://www.electoral-vote.com/)compared to Kerry on the same date in '04 (http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2004/Pres/Maps/Aug22.html).

[Matt Doc Martin]

Regarding links about her "tepid" support:

Nah. Hillary has been VERY gracious to Obama. What do they want her to do? Chain-blow randoms for Obama votes?

She suspended WAY before the convention (historical precedent) and has been nothing but "We need Obama in the White House. Vote Democratic." The whole nine yards.

I think Obama not picking her as his VP though is going to cause him to lose and lose hard, though.
She ran her campaign longer than she needed to. She did not have the support to get the nomination and kept up her attacks on Obama, feeding the GOP lines to use. And since, she has been paying lip service only. No one believes her. She needed to come out and state flatly that she did not want to be any part of teh convention other than to support the nominee, Obama. That has not happened, because she has a need to feel important and wants Obama to lose.


There is no more polarizing figure in politics today than Hillary. I would sooner vote for a third Bush term than vote for any ticket that had her on it.

[Novaya Havoc]

She ran her campaign longer than she needed to. She did not have the support to get the nomination and kept up her attacks on Obama, feeding the GOP lines to use. And since, she has been paying lip service only. No one believes her. She needed to come out and state flatly that she did not want to be any part of teh convention other than to support the nominee, Obama.

Oh, that is such absolute and total BS. Show me ANY historical precedent where ANY in-play candidate said "no roll call vote for me! Just the one who's ahead!" in any convention in the past 50 years.

Name me ONE.

Howard Dean himself was on first ballot in '04 even with less than 200 delegates to his name. This is nothing but a fabrication. "Forcing" Hillary out does not boost Barack's numbers, as is clearly evinced by the current polling. It only drives away Democrats -- such as myself -- who don't feel like "market research" is the best way to go about winning elections.

She stayed on the ballot and campaigned UNTIL the entire calendar was done. And then she suspended -- what -- FIVE days after South Dakota?

Give me a break, chico. You can't peg anything on Hillary's ambition. If she were trying to undermine Obama she would be out there saying "I AM STILL IN THE RUNNING!!! VOTE ME AT THE CONVENTION!"

Instead she's publicly stated -- time and time again -- that even HER OWN SUPERDELEGATE VOTE is going to Obama at the convention.

Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.

[Paul McEnery]

PUMA Dems like myself won't vote Obama, though, Sabs.

I was also a Michigan Primary voter, and that shit stings like a B..

If being arsed around by party election rules is enough to stop you from voting for a candidate, you wouldn't have voted for that candidate in the first place, and you're just looking for an excuse so you can't be called on your real reasons not to vote for that candidate.

Or, you know, you're just a drama queen.

[Royal]

They're playing The Weather Underground card.

They're fucking playing the Weather Underground CARD!!!!!

[Paul McEnery]

Oh, that is such absolute and total BS. Show me ANY historical precedent where ANY in-play candidate said "no roll call vote for me! Just the one who's ahead!" in any convention in the past 50 years.

Name me ONE.

Howard Dean himself was on first ballot in '04 even with less than 200 delegates to his name. This is nothing but a fabrication. "Forcing" Hillary out does not boost Barack's numbers, as is clearly evinced by the current polling. It only drives away Democrats -- such as myself -- who don't feel like "market research" is the best way to go about winning elections.

She stayed on the ballot and campaigned UNTIL the entire calendar was done. And then she suspended -- what -- FIVE days after South Dakota?

Give me a break, chico. You can't peg anything on Hillary's ambition. If she were trying to undermine Obama she would be out there saying "I AM STILL IN THE RUNNING!!! VOTE ME AT THE CONVENTION!"

Instead she's publicly stated -- time and time again -- that even HER OWN SUPERDELEGATE VOTE is going to Obama at the convention.

Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.

Instead, I'll say you're acting like a fanboy who gets upset because they changed the hairstyle on your favorite character.

[Novaya Havoc]

If being arsed around by party election rules is enough to stop you from voting for a candidate, you wouldn't have voted for that candidate in the first place, and you're just looking for an excuse so you can't be called on your real reasons not to vote for that candidate.

Or, you know, you're just a drama queen.

You from Michigan, boyo? You know what went down?

They gave all "uncommitted" votes to Obama, and then took 4 Hillary delegates based on "exit polls."

Each of those 4 Hillary delegates represented 20,000 votes for her.

That's 80,000 Michigan citizens, such as myself.

Has nothing to do with the "calendar." RBC pulled that stunt, and they kissed my support good-bye.

[Paul McEnery]

They're playing The Weather Underground card.

They're fucking playing the Weather Underground CARD!!!!!

Of course they are.

The real deadpool is: how many more times will they play it before we're done?

[Novaya Havoc]

Instead, I'll say you're acting like a fanboy who gets upset because they changed the hairstyle on your favorite character.

*kisses*

Yes, because Dazzler ties into politics with supreme aplomb.

[AllisterH]

She ran her campaign longer than she needed to. She did not have the support to get the nomination and kept up her attacks on Obama, feeding the GOP lines to use. And since, she has been paying lip service only. No one believes her. She needed to come out and state flatly that she did not want to be any part of teh convention other than to support the nominee, Obama. That has not happened, because she has a need to feel important and wants Obama to lose.


.

Having the former President NOT at the convention AND the 2nd place finisher is political suicide.

You may not like her, but Hillary definitely earned her place there and like you forgot, the last time the democrats actually held the white house it WAS under Bill.

*Shrug*

I know lots of people hate her, but really, keep pissing off her voter bloc and see where it ends up. Personally, I'm still telling my friends that voted for Hillary to support McCain (the Supreme Court is too important) but don't get too cocky.

[Paul McEnery]

You from Michigan, boyo? You know what went down?

They gave all "uncommitted" votes to Obama, and then took 4 Hillary delegates based on "exit polls."

Each of those 4 Hillary delegates represented 20,000 votes for her.

That's 80,000 Michigan citizens, such as myself.

Has nothing to do with the "calendar." RBC pulled that stunt, and they kissed my support good-bye.

See, you're just lying here.

You don't actually give a tuppeny damn about this. What you do care about is that you put all your heart into Hilary, like a fanboy who'll starve himself to death because they won't put Dazzler back into the X-Men.

You have two choices: McCain or Obama.

Or the third choice: continue to have a hissyfit.

My suggestion to you: look at what McCain says about gay people, take a valium, and accept that Obama's the least worst of your options.

[Novaya Havoc]

See, you're just lying here.


LOL! I'm LYING?!

Homosaywha?

Tell me how I lied.

Obama took his name off our ballot. So did Richardson and Edwards.

So you had Hillary, Gravel, Dodd, and Kucinich, with the standard "Uncommitted" also there.

The RBC ruled that not only does all "Uncommitted" instantly mean "Obama," but also awarded 4 Hillary delegates to Obama based on hypothetical write-ins and exit polling.

Based on the vote totals and delegates actually awarded between Hillary/Uncommitted, 4 delegates approximate 80,000 Michigan votes.

I can give you links. Can you give me some to refute my "lies?"

Really? And you wonder why the Dem party is fractured over this.

[Sabrinaset]

She ran her campaign longer than she needed to. She did not have the support to get the nomination and kept up her attacks on Obama, feeding the GOP lines to use. And since, she has been paying lip service only. No one believes her. She needed to come out and state flatly that she did not want to be any part of teh convention other than to support the nominee, Obama. That has not happened, because she has a need to feel important and wants Obama to lose.

There is no more polarizing figure in politics today than Hillary. I would sooner vote for a third Bush term than vote for any ticket that had her on it.

I don't know if I'd go THAT far, as I'd just not vote at all, but I tend to agree. Novaya, I think you underestimate how hated Hillary is. I think I read elsewhere someone saying that Hillary had the Republicans scared, and that's so incredibly wrong I literally LOLed. The Republicans WANTED Hillary to win because it would take no effort at all to get the electorate to hate her, ignoring all the people who already couldn't wait to vote against her anyway. If I were still a Republican, she'd be the candidate I'd MOST want to face because her negatives are so high, and in an election, they'd only go higher. In fact, it would be a piece of cake to run against her. When it gets to the point that Rush Limbaugh wanted Hillary to win the Dem nomination (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1581320/Republican-votes-skew-Democrat-primaries.html), then what else is left to say?

[Novaya Havoc]

I don't know if I'd go THAT far, as I'd just not vote at all, but I tend to agree. Novaya, I think you underestimate how hated Hillary is. I think I read elsewhere someone saying that Hillary had the Republicans scared, and that's so incredibly wrong I literally LOLed. The Republicans WANTED Hillary to win because it would take no effort at all to get the electorate to hate her, ignoring all the people who already couldn't wait to vote against her anyway. If I were still a Republican, she'd be the candidate I'd MOST want to face because her negatives are so high, and in an election, they'd only go higher. In fact, it would be a piece of cake to run against her. When it gets to the point that Rush Limbaugh wanted Hillary to win the Dem nomination (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1581320/Republican-votes-skew-Democrat-primaries.html), then what else is left to say?

Oh, RLY?

Then why had Fox News -- such as Bill O'Reilly and Laura Ingram -- been so kind to Hillary? Even touting themselves as the most "fair" news network toward her while MSNBC spiraled into their Olbermann-crazy hard-on-of-hate toward her?

The Republicans ALWAYS knew Barack would be toast and easy to beat. Right now Obama is hammering on Obama's celebrity with an undercurrent of affirmative action (http://anglachelg.blogspot.com/2008/08/barking-up-wrong-tree.html).

And Team Obama? "McCain has 7 Houses!" As if voters don't realize Republicans are wealthy.

I'm sorry. I'm a lifelong democrat, but without a "Unity Ticket" Obama is going to fail so hard it will hurt.

[Paul McEnery]

Oh, RLY?

Then why had Fox News -- such as Bill O'Reilly and Laura Ingram -- been so kind to Hillary? Even touting themselves as the most "fair" news network toward her while MSNBC spiraled into their Olbermann-crazy hard-on-of-hate toward her?

The Republicans ALWAYS knew Barack would be toast and easy to beat. Right now Obama is hammering on Obama's celebrity with an undercurrent of affirmative action (http://anglachelg.blogspot.com/2008/08/affirmation.html#comments).

And Team Obama? "McCain has 7 Houses!" As if voters don't realize Republicans are wealthy.

I'm sorry. I'm a lifelong democrat, but without a "Unity Ticket" Obama is going to fail so hard it will hurt.

Translation: If they don't put Dazzler back on the team, I'm never buying X-Men again. Never!

[Novaya Havoc]

Translation: If they don't put Dazzler back on the team, I'm never buying X-Men again. Never!

Ad hominems are so cute! Why yes. This is how you win support; pretend that your allies in the same political party don't exist!

Join Donna Brazile in her soon-to-be unemployed corner with her "we don't need the Hillary supporters!" meme because of your new Whole Foods Nation.

Honey, it's a big landscape out there.

[Sabrinaset]

Then why had Fox News -- such as Bill O'Reilly and Laura Ingram -- been so kind to Hillary? Even touting themselves as the most "fair" news network toward her while MSNBC spiraled into their Olbermann-crazy hard-on-of-hate toward her?

O'Reilly and Ingraham perhaps also wanted Hill to win, much like Limbaugh? Aren't you sorta making my point for me there?

And Olbermann ... geez, who knows where his head is half the time ...

[Novaya Havoc]

O'Reilly and Ingraham perhaps also wanted Hill to win, much like Limbaugh? Aren't you sorta making my point for me there?


Hypotheticals never work, chica.

[KevinTBrown]

Hypotheticals never work, chica.

"Chica"....?


http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/1947_eating_popcorn_and_drinking_beer.gif

[Sabrinaset]

Hypotheticals never work, chica.

I suppose so, homie. Like it was used here ...

Picking Hill as a VP would make the ticket a juggernaut. Without her? Uphill battle, as his electoral map shows (http://www.electoral-vote.com/)compared to Kerry on the same date in '04 (http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2004/Pres/Maps/Aug22.html).

Not seeing where Hillary comes into the equation on either map, or is mentioned in either link. You're not making any kind of argument anymore as far as I can see.

[Novaya Havoc]

I suppose so, homie. Like it was used here ...



Not seeing where Hillary comes into the equation on either map, or is mentioned in either link. You're not making any kind of argument anymore as far as I can see.

Map indicates Obama is going to suffer a Kerry loss or WORSE since Kerry was faring better this same time in '04.

As far as Hillary improving it: do you need me to link to all the reports on Clinton supporters not moving to Obama? About her doing BETTER in match-ups against McCain -- even now?

C'mon.

[tetragene]

Been reading through the thread and my head is aching--this whole thing was confusing before, having read most of these posts now I'm even more confused

Translation: If they don't put Dazzler back on the team, I'm never buying X-Men again. Never!

I think it'd suit your arguments better if you left "Dazzler" and his fandom of the character completely out of this discussion. It's completely out of place and it's making you look poor in comparison.

[Suzanne]

I lost my faith in the decision-making and critical-thinking skills of this country around November 2004. Regardless who wins in November, it will take much more than a single election to restore my faith in the common sense of your average Joe or plain Jane.I was really pissed about that. It was as plain then as the hole coming out of Bush's ass that he was a failure. Even more so during the last three years. I will be truely godsmacked if four more years of this bullshit wins out.

[Sabrinaset]

Map indicates Obama is going to suffer a Kerry loss or WORSE since Kerry was faring better this same time in '04.

As far as Hillary improving it: do you need me to link to all the reports on Clinton supporters not moving to Obama? About her doing BETTER in match-ups against McCain -- even now?

C'mon.

You didn't make that argument, though. You said "Hypotheticals don't work,". Then you posted two links that show where the candidates are now as opposed to four years ago. The problem is, you also said if Hillary is picked as veep, then the ticket becomes a juggernaut. That sounds like a hypothetical to me. But hypotheticals don't work, you also said that. So one of these two posts is wrong. Which one is it? Heck, the links didn't show what the electoral count would if IF an Obama/Hillary team were to face a McCain/Whoever his veep is team as opposed to an Obama/Bayh team, etc ... so you're changing the argument within your own post.

[LtMarvel]

Oh, RLY?

Then why had Fox News -- such as Bill O'Reilly and Laura Ingram -- been so kind to Hillary? Even touting themselves as the most "fair" news network toward her while MSNBC spiraled into their Olbermann-crazy hard-on-of-hate toward her?

The Republicans ALWAYS knew Barack would be toast and easy to beat. Right now Obama is hammering on Obama's celebrity with an undercurrent of affirmative action (http://anglachelg.blogspot.com/2008/08/barking-up-wrong-tree.html).

And Team Obama? "McCain has 7 Houses!" As if voters don't realize Republicans are wealthy.

I'm sorry. I'm a lifelong democrat, but without a "Unity Ticket" Obama is going to fail so hard it will hurt.
The one time I was stuck in DMV watching Faux News Channel, they were getting a "body language expert" to pick apart Hillary's appearances on a late night show.

Faux was hardly fair or nice to Hillary.

[Novaya Havoc]

You didn't make that argument, though. You said "Hypotheticals don't work,". Then you posted two links that show where the candidates are now as opposed to four years ago. The problem is, you also said if Hillary is picked as veep, then the ticket becomes a juggernaut. That sounds like a hypothetical to me. But hypotheticals don't work, you also said that. So one of these two posts is wrong. Which one is it? Heck, the links didn't show what the electoral count would if IF an Obama/Hillary team were to face a McCain/Whoever his veep is team as opposed to an Obama/Bayh team, etc ... so you're changing the argument within your own post.

Gurl, don't parse. After all, all signs point to Biden as the Veep anyway, who is himself racially gaffe-tastic.

PUMA!

[Sabrinaset]

Gurl, don't parse. After all, all signs point to Biden as the Veep anyway, who is himself racially gaffe-tastic.

Uh ... whatever.

And now, for some real stories ...

Text hoaxes plague Obama VP plan. (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12704.html) Well, it seemed good on paper ...

By the time Barack Obama is ready to announce his vice presidential pick, will anyone believe him?

In recent days, as speculation and anticipation has mounted, so too have phony text messages declaring Obama’s supposed running mate – from Evan Bayh and Hillary Rodham Clinton to Olympic gold medalist Michael Phelps.

It’s a cruel twist in a prolonged game of guessing that has put political junkies and Democratic supporters on edge since the campaign announced last week that it would disclose Obama’s choice through text messaging, which is expected to happen by Saturday.

In the absence of real information, pranksters have filled the gap with guidance from the website Wonkette – and maybe Howard Stern, too.

“There is incredible enthusiasm for Barack Obama’s vice presidential announcement and unfortunately some people have used that enthusiasm and sent out hoaxes," said Obama spokeswoman Jen Psaki, who received one herself. “We can assure our supporters these texts did not come from the campaign and their data is secure. Everyone can also rest easy that despite their popularity, Mickey Mouse and Michael Phelps are not on the short list at this time.

U.S. Secret Service on Way to Biden's House; Kaine and Bayh Told Nope on Veep (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/08/us-secret-servi.html)

And Rush wants it to be Biden. Hmm. (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/veep_watch/2008/08/rush_hearts_biden.html)

[Novaya Havoc]

Uh ... whatever.


U.S. Secret Service on Way to Biden's House; Kaine and Bayh Told Nope on Veep (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/08/us-secret-servi.html)



Contradict much? Right there is your answer.

[Sabrinaset]

Contradict much? Right there is your answer.

I was referring to your inability to tell what a hypothetical is.

[Major Comma]

Any chance picking a woman might help McCain?

[KevinTBrown]

Having Biden as his VP would be very disappointing pick..... It flies in the face of what he believes in.

I just don't see it.


"Smoke and mirrors."

[Sabrinaset]

Having Biden as his VP would be very disappointing pick..... It flies in the face of what he believes in.

I just don't see it.


"Smoke and mirrors."

RUSH LIMBAUGH wants Biden as Obama's veep ... there's a SLEW of quotes that can be used against him ... Obama would have to be insane to pick him!

[section 8]

at this point? McCain picking a female VP couldnt hurt

(hell the rate he's going what COULD hurt?)

[Paul McEnery]

Been reading through the thread and my head is aching--this whole thing was confusing before, having read most of these posts now I'm even more confused



I think it'd suit your arguments better if you left "Dazzler" and his fandom of the character completely out of this discussion. It's completely out of place and it's making you look poor in comparison.

It's completely in place. His arguments aren't arguments. There's no logic here, just the petulance of a jilted lover -- only replace lover with the world "fan". It's the political equivalent of stalking, and isn't worthy of any respect.

[Paul McEnery]

Uh ... whatever.

And now, for some real stories ...

Text hoaxes plague Obama VP plan. (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12704.html) Well, it seemed good on paper ....[/URL]

If the idea was to generate buzz, it seems to have worked.

[Novaya Havoc]

It's completely in place. His arguments aren't arguments. There's no logic here, just the petulance of a jilted lover -- only replace lover with the world "fan". It's the political equivalent of stalking, and isn't worthy of any respect.

Then refute my charges on Michigan's -- my State, and where I've worked to elect MANY democrats -- primary.

Oh, you haven't.

You've resulted to ad hominems.

Try again, and back that thang up before you go on about "Dazzler" and "jilted lovers."

I swear.

[Samurai]

if he is picked, i will be very very surprised.

Surprise!!!!!!

:eek:

[Paul McEnery]

Then refute my charges on Michigan's -- my State, and where I've worked to elect MANY democrats -- primary.

Oh, you haven't.

You've resulted to ad hominems.

Try again, and back that thang up before you go on about "Dazzler" and "jilted lovers."

I swear.

Your "charges" -- and they really are sad little complaints; good god, Michigan was told what the consequences would be, and went ahead anyway, and now some people like yourself are being whiny bitches about it; don't do the crime if you can't do the time is the way I look at it -- your "charges" are absolutely irrelevant to the only issue that's on the table, whether you want Obama as President or whether you want McCain.

Saying you want McCain because you feel your converses got stepped on is just puerile.

[Novaya Havoc]

Your "charges" -- and they really are sad little complaints; good god, Michigan was told what the consequences would be, and went ahead anyway, and now some people like yourself are being whiny bitches about it; don't do the crime if you can't do the time is the way I look at it -- your "charges" are absolutely irrelevant to the only issue that's on the table, whether you want Obama as President or whether you want McCain.

Saying you want McCain because you feel your converses got stepped on is just puerile.

Straw man!

Did the DNC award delegates to Obama he did not earn in Michigan?

Did they not AWARD him 4 Hillary Clinton delegates from the state based on exit polling data -- a terrible precident to set no matter the candidate or party?

Refute that rather than lobby ad hominems.


And all I can say is: Joe Biden. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

[Evan Waters]

Given that the primary was pointless to start with, I couldn't care less if they awarded delegates based on their astrological sign.

We can't afford four more years of belligerent foreign policy, rising deficits, and inactivity on global warming. I'm not confident that McCain will be a change from Bush at all.

[rick]

Biden is an excellent choice.

He rounds out the ticket and has the experience to work well in the new adminstration.

I'm pleased.

[Novaya Havoc]

Biden is an excellent choice.

He rounds out the ticket and has the experience to work well in the new adminstration.

I'm pleased.

Gaffe-tastic, Anita Hill-haranguing, big Banker/Creditor-loving, 65-year-old, coastal Senator Joe Biden?

That's hope and change? And Hillary was old and evil? I just sit and giggle at this logic.

[rick]

Gaffe-tastic, Anita Hill-haranguing, big Banker/Creditor-loving, 65-year-old, coastal Senator Joe Biden?

That's hope and change? And Hillary was old and evil? I just sit and giggle at this logic.


Giggle away.

I have never said that Sen Clinton was old or evil, and Biden will do just fine as VP.

[Novaya Havoc]

Giggle away.

I have never said that Sen Clinton was old or evil, and Biden will do just fine as VP.

Even the AP is on it like a sack of bricks:

Analysis: Biden pick shows lack of confidence (http://www.talkleft.com/wireservice?articleId=31095907&channelId=1180&buyerId=talkleftcom&buid=3042)

The candidate of change went with the status quo.

In picking Sen. Joe Biden to be his running mate, Barack Obama sought to shore up his weakness — inexperience in office and on foreign policy — rather than underscore his strength as a new-generation candidate defying political conventions.

He picked a 35-year veteran of the Senate — the ultimate insider — rather than a candidate from outside Washington, such as Govs. Tim Kaine of Virginia or Kathleen Sebelius of Kansas; or from outside his party, such as Sen. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska; or from outside the mostly white male club of vice presidential candidates. Hillary Rodham Clinton didn't even make his short list.

And it gets worse.

Bye-bye, Rust Belt.

[Michael P]

Giggle away.

I have never said that Sen Clinton was old or evil, and Biden will do just fine as VP.

You don't understand, Rick. Anyone who thinks that there's someone who could do a better job than Hillary Clinton, at anything, hates Hillary Clinton. And women. And puppies. And sunshine.

[the4thpip]

Since this is our general poli thread now [/URL]

No it isn't, but we already knew you were bad at reading.

[the4thpip]

Been reading through the thread and my head is aching--this whole thing was confusing before, having read most of these posts now I'm even more confused



I think it'd suit your arguments better if you left "Dazzler" and his fandom of the character completely out of this discussion. It's completely out of place and it's making you look poor in comparison.

I get where Paul is coming from, though.

It's very hard not to resort to slightly ridiculous arguments when addressing a completely ridiculous stance.

[king mob]

What on earth is PUMA & why the bloody hell are there Democrats still bleating on about Hilary?

[AllisterH]

Er Biden?

REALLY?

Um, I distinctly remember Biden as being the first democratic candidate all the way back during the primaries to bring up Obama's lack of experience.

Obama's picking HIM?

[the4thpip]

What on earth is PUMA ?

I think it stands for Pissy Urbanites mit Arian leanings.

[FalconX2000]

All Biden has to do is admit that Obama far exceeded his expectations, and has been proven right time after time, seeing foreign policy and national security issues months before anyone else. That will take care of most of the 'negative stuff' he said, all of which were clean attacks.

I'm happy. He was my first choice VP pick from the start.

[king mob]

I think it stands for Pissy Urbanites mit Arian leanings.

I Googled and found this (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=20652218523). So as I understand it, because Hilary didn't get the nomination a bunch of her supporters are protesting & even suggesting that Democrats & Americans generally vote for McCain?!

Paul's right, this is just a political version of 'I want Dazzler in the X Men! WAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!'

[the4thpip]

I Googled and found this (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=20652218523). So as I understand it, because Hilary didn't get the nomination a bunch of her supporters are protesting & even suggesting that Democrats & Americans generally vote for McCain?!

Paul's right, this is just a political version of 'I want Dazzler in the X Men! WAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!'

Just that digruntled fanboys aren't as willing to tear the US and much of the world down with them:

Smear campaigns against presidential hopeful Barack Obama have reached a new low as continued accusations -- and now a lawsuit -- claim the candidate is not a natural born US citizen.

A non-profit, national fact-checking organization concluded that "Obama was born in the U.S.A. just as he has always said."

An official from the Hawaii Health Department called speculation on his citizenship "pretty ridiculous."

But that hasn't prevented a prominent Philadelphia attorney and avowed Hillary Clinton supporter from filing a lawsuit against the candidate on grounds that he is constitutionally ineligible, America's Right.com reported.

The suit seeks to stop Obama from continuing his candidacy and to legally prohibit the Democratic National Convention next week from formally nominating him.

They are willing to do everything to see Obama lose, no matter what the consequences.

[Grazzt]

They are willing to do everything to see Obama lose, no matter what the consequences.

Funny thing, there are some people trying to make the case that McCain wasn't born in the country either.

[Infra-Man]

I Googled and found this (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=20652218523). So as I understand it, because Hilary didn't get the nomination a bunch of her supporters are protesting & even suggesting that Democrats & Americans generally vote for McCain?!

Paul's right, this is just a political version of 'I want Dazzler in the X Men! WAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!'

It's the equivalent of someone throwing a tantrum until they get what they want rather than negotiating rationally.

And I know hypotheticals may be looked down upon--and yes, a conditional statement (an "if, then" statement) is a hypothetical in that it lays down a hypothetical condition with the "if" clause and then attempts to address the likely consequences of the hypothetical condition--but if Hillary Clinton secured the nomination, I would find Obama supporters just as insufferable as the PUMAs if they engaged in this much whining.

[the4thpip]

Funny thing, there are some people trying to make the case that McCain wasn't born in the country either.

Very different case. It is a fact that McCain wasn't, and a legal discussion on whether children of US service people born while they are serving abroad are natural born citizens or not. I think it's clear they are, though.

However, accusing Obama to forging his birth certificate and lying about being born in Hawaii is slanderous idicoy and should not receive the kind of coverage it does.

The health department has been denying nearly weekly requests for the original because -- like death, marriage and divorce documents -- birth certificates are only given out to relatives, The Honolulu Advertiser reported.

To help quell the rumors that Obama wasn't a US citizen, the Obama campaign posted a photo of the certificate on the campaign Web site as well as the Fight The Smears site, but for skeptics that didn't prove anything.

"They responded and apparently it isn't good enough that he posted his birth certificate," said Hawaii Health Department spokeswoman Janice Okubo. "They say they want it because they claim he is not a citizen of the United States. It's pretty ridiculous."

Jerome Corsi, author of Obama Nation: Leftist Politics and the Cult of Personality, stated on Fox News that the birth certificate displayed on the candidate's Web site is a forgery, Media Matters for America reported.

"The campaign has a false, fake birth certificate posted on their website," Corsi said. "The original birth certificate of Obama has never been released, and the campaign refuses to release it."

When asked by co-host Steve Doocy why it certificate wasn't simply a "State of Hawaii-produced duplicate," Corsi replied:

"No, it's a -- there's been good analysis of it on the Internet, and it's been shown to have watermarks from Photoshop. It's a fake document that's on the website right now."

Annenberg Political Factcheck spent time with the original birth certificate, located at the Obama headquarters in Chicago, and debunked every argument against its authenticity and included photos taken of the document to prove its points.

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Obama_dogged_by_claims_of_birth_0822.html

[the4thpip]

It's the equivalent of someone throwing a tantrum until they get what they want rather than negotiating rationally.

And I know hypotheticals may be looked down upon--and yes, a conditional statement (an "if, then" statement) is a hypothetical in that it lays down a hypothetical condition with the "if" clause and then attempts to address the likely consequences of the hypothetical condition--but if Hillary Clinton secured the nomination, I would find Obama supporters just as insufferable as the PUMAs if they engaged in this much whining.

One might argue that Obama's supporters are used to voting for caucasion candidates from previous elections, though. :wink:

[KevinTBrown]

Biden?

http://i3.tinypic.com/4v54653.jpg



That's handing the election to McCain.



I am now even more scared for this country.

[KevinTBrown]

Well, this certainly didn't take long: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDVUPqoowf8

This one is going to be played long and loud from now until November.

[AllisterH]

Well, this certainly didn't take long: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDVUPqoowf8

This one is going to be played long and loud from now until November.

You know, I got a question. I'm actally going to support Biden here since I was always confused about this...

This may sound weird, but exactly WHY was it considered "BAD" to focus on Obama's lack of experience.

Obama's ENTIRE strategy during the primary was "I'm the new kid, I'm not the insider"

Yet because Biden, Clinton et al all took him up on his statement, they are the bad guys?

How the hell do you respond to a guy whose whole strategy is simply painting you as "the insider"

[Infra-Man]

http://i3.tinypic.com/4v54653.jpg

On the note of facepalms...

Philip J. Berg, Esq. Files Federal Lawsuit Requesting Obama Be Removed as a Candidate as he does not meet the Qualifications for President (http://www.obamacrimes.com/index.php/component/content/article/1-philip-j-berg-esq-files-federal-lawsuit-requesting-obama-be-removed-as-a-candidate-as-he-does-not-meet-the-qualifications-for-president)

[FalconX2000]

Well, this certainly didn't take long: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDVUPqoowf8

This one is going to be played long and loud from now until November.

There have been plenty of far more brutal political rivalries than that between Obama and Biden that have resulted in a successful co-ticket. I don't see why factors have changed such that should be different now. Biden has also praised Obama or declined to criticise him directly on plenty of other occasions even while still running.

[Buzz Dixon]

I think Biden is a good choice.

Obama needed someone on the ticket with experience. The #2 slot can't go to the "change" guy, since the #2 slot doesn't get to make policy. The #2 slot can go to the "experience" guy because the theory is that he's there to temper policy with sage advice.

(Mind you, this didn't happen with the current Administration...)

If Obama had gone with a less experienced running mate, the Republicans would have used that to drum up fear that the country was about to be handed over to a bunch of know-nothings who would wreck it...uh...even further.

Obama was not going to pick a runner up in the Democratic race; he needed a running mate who didn't have a ton of sound bytes attacking him. Someone else has pointed out Biden has been critical of Obama in the past, but as they said, it will take only one, "Hey, I was wrong about this guy" speech and that's moot.

Now the question is going to be who McCain's running mate will be. Since Obama has announced his choice, McCain has to come up with a veep who doesn't make it look like he's pandering. I think we can write off all of the big name possibilities and should look for his choice to be made among lesser known governors and congressmen.

[king mob]

Just that digruntled fanboys aren't as willing to tear the US and much of the world down with them:


I wouldn't be sure of that, have you seen the reaction to Robert Downey's comments about DC? They're a terrible lot when they're pissed off.

[king mob]

It's the equivalent of someone throwing a tantrum until they get what they want rather than negotiating rationally.

It certainly is & there's completely no sense in the arguments they make at all. Hence why the fanboy comparison is pretty spot on.

And I know hypotheticals may be looked down upon--and yes, a conditional statement (an "if, then" statement) is a hypothetical in that it lays down a hypothetical condition with the "if" clause and then attempts to address the likely consequences of the hypothetical condition--but if Hillary Clinton secured the nomination, I would find Obama supporters just as insufferable as the PUMAs if they engaged in this much whining.

But would Obama supporters want Magneto to win?

[Infra-Man]

But would Obama supporters want Magneto to win?

Can't speak for everyone, but as an Obama supporter myself, if Magneto supported a woman's right to choose, rolling back the Bush tax cuts, a universal health care plan, and a measured and thoughtful approach to foreign policy and the war in Iraq, I'd vote for Magneto.

[Novaya Havoc]

Er Biden?

REALLY?

Um, I distinctly remember Biden as being the first democratic candidate all the way back during the primaries to bring up Obama's lack of experience.

Obama's picking HIM?

Not to mention the guy who found Obama to be the first mainstream African American who is "articulate and bright and clean and a nice looking guy! (http://sugarnspice.typepad.com/sugar_n_spicea_meeting_pl/2008/08/obama-still-cle.html)"

Oh, it's going to be a fun march to the GE.

[Charles RB]

This is weird. I thought McCain's lot were upset Obama lacked experience. Now they're going on the attack because he chose a running-mate who had some, which logically would negate his personal lack of experience as he'd have someone to consult with?

Course, they'd have thrown a fucking fit whoever the running-mate was, the tosspots.

What on earth is PUMA & why the bloody hell are there Democrats still bleating on about Hilary?

Seconded.

[king mob]

Can't speak for everyone, but as an Obama supporter myself, if Magneto supported a woman's right to choose, rolling back the Bush tax cuts, a universal health care plan, and a measured and thoughtful approach to foreign policy and the war in Iraq, I'd vote for Magneto.

If it were the cuddly nice Chris Claremont Magneto Obama was up against then the PUMA lot might have something, but it's the fucking nasty evil bastard Grant Morrison Magneto that the Democrats are up against.

This fanboy analogy is really wearing thin isn't it..

[rick]

Not to mention the guy who found Obama to be the first mainstream African American who is "articulate and bright and clean and a nice looking guy! (http://sugarnspice.typepad.com/sugar_n_spicea_meeting_pl/2008/08/obama-still-cle.html)"

Oh, it's going to be a fun march to the GE.


Wow, you hardcore Hilary types are more than a bit bitter aren’t you?

So you lost the primaries and instead of working to unite the party and aim toward the 80 to 90% common goals of both Obama and Clinton, you are going to just bitch and moan and bitch and moan, hoping to lose the election and to hurt the nation, just to be able to say I told you so.

I understand this kind of absurdity from Republicans, but from a Democrat it’s just sort of pathetic.

[FalconX2000]

Not to mention the guy who found Obama to be the first mainstream African American who is "articulate and bright and clean and a nice looking guy! (http://sugarnspice.typepad.com/sugar_n_spicea_meeting_pl/2008/08/obama-still-cle.html)"

Oh, it's going to be a fun march to the GE.

A baloney gaffe. Biden immediately called Obama and several black leaders to explain and apologise. He said himself that where he said "clean" he should have used "fresh" because Obama was a fresh guy with fresh perspectives and ideas.

[FalconX2000]

If you guys hit google news right now, you'll see this article from the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/23/us/politics/23veep.html?em

It was posted 2 hours ago and talks about the VP field "narrowing" and talks of Biden as the likely pick.

NYT! You guys are slow!:tongue:

[Novaya Havoc]

A baloney gaffe. Biden immediately called Obama and several black leaders to explain and apologise. He said himself that where he said "clean" he should have used "fresh" because Obama was a fresh guy with fresh perspectives and ideas.

Okay:

Try this. (http://web.archive.org/web/20040803085719/http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4961694/)


WASHINGTON - Sen. Joseph Biden, a senior Democrat, on Sunday urged Republican Sen. John McCain to run for vice president with the Democratic hopeful, Sen. John Kerry, in order to heal the “vicious rift” dividing America.

McCain, of Arizona, “categorically” ruled out standing with Kerry, but Biden, the top Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, said he had no second choice.

“I’m sticking with McCain,” Biden said.

“I think John McCain would be a great candidate for vice president,” Biden, from Delaware, said on NBC’s “Meet the Press,” where the two senators appeared together to take questions on Iraq and other subjects.

[rick]

Okay:

Try this. (http://web.archive.org/web/20040803085719/http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4961694/)


What's the issue?

I think John McCain would make some lucky President an excellent Vice-President too.


It's giving him the top spot that's the problem.

[Infra-Man]

I am interested in the PUMA presence at the DNC. If this previous post on PUMA Conference 08 (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?p=7380896#post7380896) is any indication, next week should be wackier than it already is.

[FalconX2000]

Okay:

Try this. (http://web.archive.org/web/20040803085719/http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4961694/)

So? Despite his military interventionist mindset, he really was worthy of respect for some maverick principles back then, such as opposing the Bush tax cuts during a time of war. John McCain hadn't flip flopped into his current Bush with a touch of alt energy agenda back in 2004.

...No no, that's not being fair to Bush, whose foreign policy mindset has improved from world-wrecking idiocy to bluster-filled idiocy in the last 2 years.

[Sabrinaset]

Obama has a meeting...

http://www.russiablog.org/obama-berlin-germany.jpg

...PUMA has a meeting!

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f336/sabrinaset/PUMA.jpg

Infra-Man: That aricle was hilarious! Hillary is becoming less and less of a factor with every day we come closer to the election, and anyone who thinks she will be one, well ... Holy wishful thinking, chica! :biggrin:

[Charles RB]

Obama has a meeting...

http://www.russiablog.org/obama-berlin-germany.jpg

...PUMA has a meeting!

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f336/sabrinaset/PUMA.jpg

Yuck yuck. :biggrin:

[LtMarvel]

Very different case. It is a fact that McCain wasn't, and a legal discussion on whether children of US service people born while they are serving abroad are natural born citizens or not. I think it's clear they are, though.

However, accusing Obama to forging his birth certificate and lying about being born in Hawaii is slanderous idicoy and should not receive the kind of coverage it does.



http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Obama_dogged_by_claims_of_birth_0822.html
Just remember, if you accept Corsi reporting, then McCain's money is mob money....

[king mob]

I am interested in the PUMA presence at the DNC. If this previous post on PUMA Conference 08 (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?p=7380896#post7380896) is any indication, next week should be wackier than it already is.

That's barking mad. Surely they realise they just look stupid?

[Novaya Havoc]

I must say.

If McCain is smart and selects Alaskan Gov. Sarah Palin as his VP, he will have this entire thing in the bag.

No joke.

[Buzz Dixon]

I must say.

If McCain is smart and selects Alaskan Gov. Sarah Palin as his VP, he will have this entire thing in the bag.

No joke.Not when the next major bank fails.

[Novaya Havoc]

Gov. Palin has performed more concrete actions in support of same-sex couples than Barack Obama has. That in and of itself is an LOL on Obama.

I'll be laughing all the way to that failed bank if McCain picks her and then they kill amongst the Hillary sect and "fiscally responsible" conservatives.

Palin will p0wn that ticket. Mark it.

[Charles RB]

That's barking mad. Surely they realise they just look stupid?

They didn't shut down the group and go home after that, so it appears not.

Not when the next major bank fails.

Yeah, the economy doing badly does seem to be something that'll harm him - and based on the news, it's going to get worse worldwide. How he'll get past that is... interesting.

[Charles RB]

Gov. Palin has performed more concrete actions in support of same-sex couples than Barack Obama has.

Irrelevant, because McCain hasn't and he'll be the one setting the agenda. And we know what his views are.

And I specifically remember you previously saying that's not an issue you were bothered about in this election & McCain looked attractive despite that. Why bring it up now? Did you change your mind?

[Sabrinaset]

And I specifically remember you previously saying that's not an issue you were bothered about in this election & McCain looked attractive despite that. Why bring it up now? Did you change your mind?

He changed his mind on hypotheticals, what's one more? :biggrin:

Hypotheticals never work, chica.

I'll be laughing all the way to that failed bank if McCain picks her and then they kill amongst the Hillary sect and "fiscally responsible" conservatives.

[Novaya Havoc]

And I specifically remember you previously saying that's not an issue you were bothered about in this election & McCain looked attractive despite that. Why bring it up now? Did you change your mind?

Show me where I said that. Gay rights -- since, well, I am gay -- is always on the backburner. It's not my #1 issue because I'm not hella selfish, but girl, plz.

However, the fact that Palin has been more pro-gay than Obama OR Biden makes me giggle with glee. Those entitled and evil Republicans!

[BnL]

Gov. Palin has performed more concrete actions in support of same-sex couples than Barack Obama has. That in and of itself is an LOL on Obama.

I'll be laughing all the way to that failed bank if McCain picks her and then they kill amongst the Hillary sect and "fiscally responsible" conservatives.

Palin will p0wn that ticket. Mark it.

Except that McCain has said that he won't choose a pro-gay running mate.

[Charles RB]

Show me where I said that

My mistake, I'm confusing you with Dazzler. Sorry.

[Novaya Havoc]

Except that McCain has said that he won't choose a pro-gay running mate.

She's not pro-gay.

But on paper, very very few politicians are. Period.

But she has done more for same-sex couples than either Obama OR Biden while not being "pro-gay."

[KevinTBrown]

She's not pro-gay.

But on paper, very very few politicians are. Period.

But she has done more for same-sex couples than either Obama OR Biden while not being "pro-gay."

You're right....... to a point.

However, she's a Governor, while they're Senators. So, of course, she can affect more immediate change than they could IN HER STATE



By the way, and I'm just going to get this out of the way now and move on, you're sure a pissy little thing, ain't ya? Just because things didn't go "your way", you're going to try to piss in everyone's cornflakes.

Paul is definitely right. You're just a political version of "I want Dazzler in the X Men! WAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!"

[FalconX2000]

Irrelevant, because McCain hasn't and he'll be the one setting the agenda. And we know what his views are.

And I specifically remember you previously saying that's not an issue you were bothered about in this election & McCain looked attractive despite that. Why bring it up now? Did you change your mind?

No, he'll just pick the nearest angle to promote his agenda. He's aspiring to be the Terry McAullife of this board.

[AllisterH]

Novaya Havoc, if you've been following this entire election cycle, Ive been pro-Hillary.

However, she's not the candidate and I honestly believe that as a party, Hillary herself wouldn't support PUMA style shenanigans (yeah, I know most on these boards are pretty anti-Hillary and believe the worst of her, but they can uite frankly, go fuck themselves since they're as bad fairweaher democrats as they accuse you....)

Furthermore, their platforms are almost exactly the same. Hell, the only difference is that she's to the left of Obama on healthcare and that's the only difference.

Then there's the supreme court issue. No way should you allow your anger (justified or not) to cloud your judgement. McCain WILL nominate gay-hostile, women-unfriendly judges.

Like I've told my pro-Hillary friends, you should throw your ful support behnd OBama.

[kingdom2000]

For me Obama could have chosen Lieberman or Hitler or some random stranger off the streets and I would still vote for him. Not because a die hard Democrat because McCain has made the choice real simple. McCain has made it very clear that he intends to continue most if not all of Bush's policies. There is no real difference between the two on foreign (blow em all to hell) and domestic (whatever my lobbiest friends want) and the domino after effects.

The end result is you have one question and only one question to ask yourself.

Do you like the way things have been run for the last eight years and is 4 more years of the same good for the country?

If the answer is yes, vote McCain. If the answer is no, then vote Obama.

It is sadly and pathetically that easy. I wish it was more complicated then that. The country deserves for it be (even if can't necessarily handle complicated choices). But this year that is not the case. Yeah Obama's "change" slogan could be lip service and nothing more. There is actually a good chance that it is. But the definition of insane is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. America already did it in 2004 with Bush and the results didn't change. Do you really think doing the same thing again in 2008 by voting for McSame will lead to different results? I don't. It's better to try someone new. It might lead to those different results people seem to want. Any attempt to make who to vote for more complicated is just purposedly trying to cloud a decision you have already made and just not willing to admit too.

[the4thpip]

So with all that PUMA foolishness, how is McCain doing with uniting the wings of the GOP?

According to conservative commentator and former presidential candidate Pat Buchanan, Sen. John McCain's chief foreign policy adviser Randy Scheunemann is a 'dual loyalist,' 'neocon warmonger' involved in activities that 'none dare call treason.'

Scheunemann's former employer, Orion Strategies, is a lobbying firm with strong ties to Mikheil Saakashvili's administration in Georgia.

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Buchanan_accuses_McCains_neocon_warmonger_of_0822. html

[cactusmaac]

Buchanan represents a feather or three at the most.

This is surprisingly good for a GOP ad.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video_log/2008/08/mccain_the_one_road_to_denver.html

[the4thpip]

Buchanan represents a feather or three at the most.

This is surprisingly good for a GOP ad.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video_log/2008/08/mccain_the_one_road_to_denver.html

I don't know.

That whole "the one" theme could seriously backfire. It is too juvenile for an old man whose main claim to be in this race is his experience. And it comes over as envious and whiney.

[king mob]

Today's Observer has a rather interesting article.

On a short flight to New York recently, I was sitting behind two white, well-dressed twentysomethings chattering loudly about going to clubs and travel plans and the possibility of living in New Jersey. Then came the question: 'So who are you voting for?'

'I was for Hillary, but now ... I'm kind of undecided,' volunteered the first woman. 'Are you a Democrat?' asked the second. 'Yeah. But I think I might go with McCain. It's just that, well, I don't know.' Her voice dropped. I leant forward to hear. 'You kind of hate to say it aloud, but ...' Her voice dropped again, lost in the roar of the jet engines, and I missed whatever came next.

Let's start with this concession: I have no idea what that young woman actually said. In a perfect world, I suppose that would be the end of the story and I would go back to minding my own business. In the context of contemporary political discourse, however, it did cross my mind that, if this conversation was presented on one of those 'finish the sentence' cultural-literacy tests, then pretty much every American, of whatever creed, colour, or class, would have exactly the same guess as to how the woman completed her thought.

There's some consensus, in other words, about the one thing in America we really 'hate to say' aloud. Yet by refraining from saying audibly that-which-must-not-be-spoken, was the young woman's political choice rendered rational, neutral, pure? Conversely, if I were to spell it out here, would I be the one accused of 'playing the race card'?

Everyone knows that race matters to a greater or lesser degree; few of us want to admit it. Indeed, race is the one topic that's probably even more taboo in polite company than sex.

Barack Obama predicted this phenomenon and attempted to expose it to the anodyne of common sense: 'They're going to try to make you afraid of me. "He's young and inexperienced and he's got a funny name. And did I mention he's black?" ' The not altogether surprising backlash from John McCain's campaign is a deflection, an expression of deep discomfort. The reflexive accusation that Obama was playing the race card has a certain resemblance to the juvenile retort one gets when the science teacher tries to explain the human reproductive system: 'Oh! He said a dirty word!' In this way, the opportunity for thoughtful public analysis sinks, once again, below the sound of the audible. Yet the fear of race rolls on, pantomimed in palpably influential and consequential ways.

At the same time the civil rights movement has given us a moral conscience that was not as prevalent when The Birth of a Nation was made. Today it's fair to say that the overwhelming majority of white Americans 'hate to say it aloud' because they also hate to think of themselves as racists. Yet the tendency to turn the commitment to racial liberalism into sheer denial is strong. 'I don't see race' becomes 'I don't see racism'. While some of us are listening to the soothing tones of National Public Radio, a far larger audience is listening to the right-wing radio host Rush Limbaugh singing about subterranean fears of 'Barack, the magic Negro', or to shock jocks cackling about 'jigaboos'. Not that any of them mean it in a racist way. Hey, lighten up. Don't you have a sense of humour?

Then there are the very real disparities that burden the lives of the majority of blacks, people of colour and the poor in this country: from the still unrepaired wake of Hurricane Katrina to the greater infant mortality rate and lesser life span, to near double-digit rates of unemployment, to the fact that blacks in New York are eight times more likely than whites to be stopped for marijuana possession, to disproportionately high rates of foreclosures and homelessness among blacks, Native Americans and Latinos, to the almost complete resegregation of schools across the land, to a war on drugs so shockingly racialised and so aggressively executed that our rates of incarceration place us first in the world.

We rejoice in the warm symbolism of interracial bliss, particularly in the idealised and thoroughly mythic sphere of celebrity existence. At the same time, there is a terrible ambivalence on the ground. Does one really want 'the race card' living next door, or being your boss? Do you really want your child marrying outside his race? I've had conversations with white friends who are rattled when a black pupil has bested their child in the class rankings and can't let go of the feeling that the mere presence of blacks in the school must be bringing down the test scores.

Similarly, it's interesting to review the evolution of media commentary, from TV to the blogosphere, trying to fit the thoroughly unfamiliar Obama into familiar boxes. For a while, he was depicted as not having any 'racial baggage'. Then, in the blink of an eye, he was transformed into someone who could be demonised with all the well-practised repertoire of insults reserved for the Nation of Islam's Louis Farrakhan and armed revolutionaries.

Obama's comeback, his eloquent speech about race, showed that he wasn't exactly the same person, not by any means. So in yet another twist, he is now so uppity he needs bringing down, defamed as too famous, categorised as uncategorisable, displaced as unplaceable. Yet the truth is that more is on the record about every step of Obama's life than possibly any candidate on the planet, and so this particular brand of demonisation has been accomplished by the insinuations of erasure.

If you took away his 'pretty words', he'd be nothing. If you took away his race, he'd be nothing. If only he didn't have a brain, he'd be nothing, nothing, nothing. It's a circular, nonsensical mantra - magical thinking, wrapped in the fiction of 'but really, I never see race'. This kind of denial masquerading as colour-blind idealism cannot be our compass at this exciting and potentially transformative moment.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/24/barackobama.democrats2008

[Matt Doc Martin]

I must say.

If McCain is smart and selects Alaskan Gov. Sarah Palin as his VP, he will have this entire thing in the bag.

No joke.
He will end up with Romney. No way he goes with some chick from a state that, electorally-wise, does not matter at all.


Gov. Palin has performed more concrete actions in support of same-sex couples than Barack Obama has. That in and of itself is an LOL on Obama.

I'll be laughing all the way to that failed bank if McCain picks her and then they kill amongst the Hillary sect and "fiscally responsible" conservatives.

Palin will p0wn that ticket. Mark it.

Huh? And if Hillary supporters are retarded enough to vote for McCain because he picked a woman VP, they are too stupid TO vote.

Show me where I said that. Gay rights -- since, well, I am gay -- is always on the backburner. It's not my #1 issue because I'm not hella selfish, but girl, plz.

However, the fact that Palin has been more pro-gay than Obama OR Biden makes me giggle with glee. Those entitled and evil Republicans!

She's not pro-gay.

But on paper, very very few politicians are. Period.

But she has done more for same-sex couples than either Obama OR Biden while not being "pro-gay."


Wow.

You seem to pull stuff out of your ass.

"She's pro-gay, but not enough to make McCain, who is anti-gay, pick her. And he will pick her, and REPUBLICANS WILL RULE ALL! Yayyyyyyyy GAY!"

All that requires a massive suspension of disbelief.

I am a registered Republican who will, with a very clear conscience, vote Obama. I am not gay, but I have some gay friends. I respect their right to a relationship but gay rights, as a whole, are pretty low on my wish list. However, an Obama administration would be way better than A McCain administration for gay rights even if he chose RuPaul, Ellen Degeneres, or Tom Cruise for his running mate.

[Joe Rice]

Gov. Palin has performed more concrete actions in support of same-sex couples than Barack Obama has. That in and of itself is an LOL on Obama.

I'll be laughing all the way to that failed bank if McCain picks her and then they kill amongst the Hillary sect and "fiscally responsible" conservatives.

Palin will p0wn that ticket. Mark it.

You do realize that McCain has actually stated that being even slightly pro-gay is a complete deal-breaker? Worse than being pro-choice?

Your pettiness is amazing.

[Matt Doc Martin]

You do realize that McCain has actually stated that being even slightly pro-gay is a complete deal-breaker? Worse than being pro-choice?

Your pettiness is amazing.

I choose "delusions".

[KevinTBrown]

I choose "delusions".

http://random-squeegee.com/knight.jpg

You..... have chosen wisely.

[Infra-Man]

That aricle was hilarious! Hillary is becoming less and less of a factor with every day we come closer to the election, and anyone who thinks she will be one, well ... Holy wishful thinking, chica! :biggrin:

I think Hillary does play some role to an extent--at the convention, she needs to give her holdout supporters faith in Obama, as difficult as that may be. If she doesn't do this well enough or if she helps sink Obama's candidacy, she can kiss a 2012 run goodbye. She may even threaten her stature in the party and the Clinton legacy, for that matter.

That said, the PUMA crowd and the hillaryis44 crowd are still insufferable and remind me of children who threaten to hold their breaths until mommy or daddy gives them what they want.

[FalconX2000]

On the subject of Biden: Taken entirely out of context, authoring a bill called the "Violence Against Women Act" sounds pretty sinister.

[AllisterH]

There is _NO_ chance of McCain being gay-friendly.

Frankly, the BEST the gay community could hope for was Cheney himself. For all his faults (and they are many), nobody disagrees with the idea that his daughter is the apple of his eye.

I STILL don't know what Democrats didn't hammer Cheney on this anytime legislature dealing with gay rights came up.

Democrats are WAY too nice...

[Samurai]

Gov. Palin has performed more concrete actions in support of same-sex couples than Barack Obama has. That in and of itself is an LOL on Obama.

I'll be laughing all the way to that failed bank if McCain picks her and then they kill amongst the Hillary sect and "fiscally responsible" conservatives.

Palin will p0wn that ticket. Mark it.

Novaya, as a Hillary follower, I'd be interested in hearing your reaction to McCain's latest ad, featuring Hillary Clinton...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NrQ36Djf2E

[Novaya Havoc]

Novaya, as a Hillary follower, I'd be interested in hearing your reaction to McCain's latest ad, featuring Hillary Clinton...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NrQ36Djf2E

McCain's ads have been stellar so far. All team Obama has is "He's old!" "He's Bush!" and, worse, this silly "But he has 7 houuuuses! HouseS! PLURAL!" meme that will not gain a bit of traction.

Yes, we get it. Cindy McCain is loaded and purchases homes for relatives. And Republicans are rich. I think everyone is well aware of this.

As far as that ad? Again: hitting the right notes on Obama's celebrity and vanity. I don't think it'll sway many Hillary supporters, but there are quite a few people who are still "Biden? REALLY? You really didn't even consider Hillary and make the 'Dream Ticket'?"

But picking Gov. Palin as a running mate would suck all the hot air out of the Democrats' balloon on this topic more than ads like this. Like I said, I'm sure even "that racist!" Geraldine Ferraro herself will be laughing her ass off with glee all the way into the voting booth.

[Paul McEnery]

He will end up with Romney. No way he goes with some chick from a state that, electorally-wise, does not matter at all.

Because I'm sure that a woman who gave birth to a kid with Downs Syndrome five months ago is all over running for President.

[Novaya Havoc]

Because I'm sure that a woman who gave birth to a kid with Downs Syndrome five months ago is all over running for President.

Vice President. Don't go pulling an Obama with "President" Joe Biden.

And love the implicit sexism there. She had a baby! I mean, why doesn't she just also give up her office as Governor, too? Then she'd have more time with the children.

Honestly.

[Paul McEnery]

Vice President. Don't go pulling an Obama with "President" Joe Biden.

And love the implicit sexism there. She had a baby! I mean, why doesn't she just also give up her office as Governor, too? Then she'd have more time with the children.

Honestly.

What a child you are!

She had a Down Syndrome baby, you schmuck.

You really think someone in that circumstance -- for a Republican audience, no less -- has any business being on the campaign trail for five months?

Of course you do, because you're completely out of touch with reality.



And that's completely aside from the fact that Ted Stevens is going to jail, and the last thing any Republican Campaign is going to want is that noise in the headlines.