2008 U.S. Presidential Election Mega thread

[Corrina]

This might backfire.

Because people are already doing this because they are so damn money-crunched. Any little thing to save gas money helps. And they might feel like McCain is making fun of them for getting an air gauge.

Or not. But when your gas bill doubles in one month, that's when you start really trying to make the most of what you can afford.

[Sabrinaset]

Here's some more news stories ...

McCain visits a motorcycle rally. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080805/ap_on_el_pr/mccain_5)

Speaking of drilling ... (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12304.html)

Obama says our energy problems can be linked to Cheney. (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080805/D92C6VRG0.html)

Bill Clinton still can't bring himself to say it ... (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/08/04/2008-08-04_bill_clinton_refuses_to_say_barack_obama.html)

New poll shows Obama losing support among young, women. (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/46457.html) Uh-oh...

Barack Obama has lost ground among some of his strongest bases of support, including young people, women, Democrats and independents, according to a new ATV/Zogby poll.

The Illinois Democrat has also lost some support among African-Americans and Hispanics, where his lead over Republican John McCain has shrunk, and among Catholics, where he's lost his lead.

The net result, pollster John Zogby found, is a race that's neck and neck, with McCain supported by 42 percent; Obama by 41 percent; Libertarian Bob Barr by 2 percent; and independent Ralph Nader by 2 percent. Another 13 percent supported other candidates or were undedcided.

Zogby called the results a "notable turnaround" from a July survey he did that showed Obama leading by 46-36.

"McCain made signifciant gains at Obama's expense among some of what had been Obama's strongest demographic groups," Zogby said.

His findings:

-Among voters aged 18-29, Obama lost 16 percent and McCain gained 20. Obama still leads, 49-38;

-Among women, McCain gained 10 percentage points. Obama now leads 43-38;

-Among independents, Obama lost an 11 point lead. They're now tied;

-Among Democrats, Obama's support dropped from 83 percent to 74 percent;

-Among Catholics, Obama lost the 11 point lead he had in July and now trails McCain by 15.

Zogby said Obama also lost ground among minorities.

He attributed Obama's erosion of support to McCain's criticisms of Obama as inexperienced in the wake of Obama's trip to Europe, the Middle East, Afghanistan and Iraq and to Obama's flips on some issues.

[Nyarlathotep]

Obama points out what an idiot McCain is with this tire gauge thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akjXqfvLu28

[kingdom2000]

^ Of course Obama is right when it comes to gas and tire pressure but that isn't the point. McCain successfully changed the conversation and made Obama look stupid to the masses that don't bother to actually verify what they are hearing is correct or not. Its just like the "he's a muslim" thing.

Facts don't matter, the soundbyte does. Its why McCain speaks in a boring but soundbyte friendly 5-7 words per sentence. Its why he "explains" complicated situations in simplied ways. Its why he keep advoating what is really stupid solutions to many problems but are soundbyte friendly and easy for the sheep to understand.

Until the Dems get that through their thick skulls that facts don't matter its bite size chunks of info (real or not) that matter, McCain will continue to successfully pound on him. Pretty much he has to go to hiimself and say "how do I make this so a 6 year old can understand" and he is on the right path.

[section 8]

This might backfire.

Because people are already doing this because they are so damn money-crunched. Any little thing to save gas money helps. And they might feel like McCain is making fun of them for getting an air gauge.

Or not. But when your gas bill doubles in one month, that's when you start really trying to make the most of what you can afford.

exactly! every little bit counts, and to imply (ok flat-out say) that Obama is aware of this is hardly an insult.
Nevermind "might" i likely WILL backfire.

[rick]

^ Of course Obama is right when it comes to gas and tire pressure but that isn't the point. McCain successfully changed the conversation and made Obama look stupid to the masses that don't bother to actually verify what they are hearing is correct or not. Its just like the "he's a muslim" thing.


Well they certainly tried to change the conversation.

I'm not so sure that they got anywhere with it.

[Nyarlathotep]

Paris gives McCain gape: http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/64ad536a6d

[Nick Soapdish]

Paris gives McCain gape: http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/64ad536a6d

Damn. I must be more tired than I thought. She actually sounded halfway clued in there. I wonder how many takes that took.

[Nyarlathotep]

Damn. I must be more tired than I thought. She actually sounded halfway clued in there. I wonder how many takes that took.

Shouldn't we be more concerned with why she sounds more clued in than at least one of the nominees for President? Regardless of how many takes it took?

[Samurai]

Shouldn't we be more concerned with why she sounds more clued in than at least one of the nominees for President? Regardless of how many takes it took?

Yeah, Obama should take the hint and stop talking about nebulous "change" and ridiculous attempts at conservation that everyone already knows and get down to serious policies, like Paris!

Honestly, I'd vote for her before Barry O.

[LtMarvel]

McCain nominated his wife to win the biker beauty pagent.

Um... did anyone clue McCain in about the "talent" contest they go through isn't exactly rated G...

[Samurai]

McCain nominated his wife to win the biker beauty pagent.

Um... did anyone clue McCain in about the "talent" contest they go through isn't exactly rated G...

I'm just glad McCain had the guts to attend, from what I hear about the activities there. It increases my respect for him, as a "man of the people"...

[Royal]

I'm just glad McCain had the guts to attend, from what I hear about the activities there. It increases my respect for him, as a "man of the people"...

So if Obama went, they wouldn't be alcoholic sheep who objectify women and only care about fucking and fighting while straddling machines that contrdict his energy plan?

[rick]

It increases my respect for him, as a "man of the people"...

I've been there, so trust me when I say that you shouldn't.

Still, you have to respect a man who doesn't mind showing off his wifes tits.

[Buzz Dixon]

McCain at Sturges is pandering.

[Buzz Dixon]

McCain at Sturges is pandering.

[the4thpip]

McCain nominated his wife to win the biker beauty pagent.

Um... did anyone clue McCain in about the "talent" contest they go through isn't exactly rated G...

Well, she is a drug dealer after all.
http://rawstory.com/images/new/wanted.jpg


http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Pointing_to_drug_law_hypocrisy_propot_0805.html

[the4thpip]

I'm just glad McCain had the guts to attend, from what I hear about the activities there. It increases my respect for him, as a "man of the people"...

Would he still have gone if cameras hadn't been allowed?

[FalconX2000]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121798420317015485.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Looks like the scholars didn't appreciate ABC's Obama/Hillary trainwreck debate. They don't have anyone from their company chosen for the 3 official presidential debates. (though of course we should remember that only 1 moderator will be present per debate this time)

[Typo Lad]

Oh for goodness sake!

Can we all knock off the "Barry" and "McSame" nonsense?

So childish.

[Charles RB]

"As you may know, not long ago a couple hundred thousand Berliners made a lot of noise for my opponent. I'll take the roar of 50,000 Harleys any day," McCain said, referring to Democrat Barack Obama's recent visit to the German capital.

McCain, forgive me for asking, but are you actually this fucking stupid or are you pretending to be because you think voters will be fucking stupid enough to be appealed to by this?

[the4thpip]

McCain, forgive me for asking, but are you actually this fucking stupid or are you pretending to be because you think voters will be fucking stupid enough to be appealed to by this?

And should he really keep reminding people how much more popular Obama is in the world?

[Charles RB]

And should he really keep reminding people how much more popular Obama is in the world?

I assume that he assumes his voters are xenophobic and going "look! The foreign people like him!" is a great way of attacking Obama in their eyes.

What a lovely man.

[Royal]

McCain, forgive me for asking, but are you actually this fucking stupid or are you pretending to be because you think voters will be fucking stupid enough to be appealed to by this?

Pretending to be.

While Stugis is the home of Motorcycle worship, there's still a form of creative nationalism going on there. Sure you can bring your Honda and show it off, but you won't be allowed to play in any Harley games. McCain is trying to tap that nationalism and use it for votes. Especially from older white males.

[Royal]

I assume that he assumes his voters are xenophobic and going "look! The foreign people like him!" is a great way of attacking Obama in their eyes.

What a lovely man.

Friend of mine can't sell filet minon (yes I butchered the spelling) in his resturant in my area. Last year, he introduced "Patriot Steak" and now he runs out weekly.

There are still pockets of xenophobia thanks to our current administration.

[Charles RB]

Friend of mine can't sell filet minon (yes I butchered the spelling) in his resturant in my area. Last year, he introduced "Patriot Steak" and now he runs out weekly.

Oh fucking hell. :frown:

[Samurai]

As for Obama's supposed crowd of 200,000, some sources are actually estimating it was only 20,000 (the German media that covered the event at the time). It was Obama's campaign that decided upon the 200,000 figure:

http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/blog/blog.aspx?ID=2492

http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/blog/blog.aspx?id=2503

[rick]

As for Obama's supposed crowd of 200,000, some sources are actually estimating it was only 20,000 (the German media that covered the event at the time). It was Obama's campaign that decided upon the 200,000 figure:

http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/blog/blog.aspx?ID=2492

http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/blog/blog.aspx?id=2503


I don't know man, there was a whole hell of a lot of people in those long shots.

[FalconX2000]

McCain, forgive me for asking, but are you actually this fucking stupid or are you pretending to be because you think voters will be fucking stupid enough to be appealed to by this?

Well, if by that he means 50000 American votes vs 200000 German votes, I guess he'd be telling the truth.

As for Obama's supposed crowd of 200,000, some sources are actually estimating it was only 20,000 (the German media that covered the event at the time). It was Obama's campaign that decided upon the 200,000 figure:

http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/blog/blog.aspx?ID=2492

http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/blog/blog.aspx?id=2503

20000 my ass. That crowd was several times as big as the 60000+ Obama got at his biggest rally in the U.S..

[KevinTBrown]

And Obama hammers back at McCain with ridicule: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080806/ap_on_el_pr/obama

I love this final line: McCain's campaign "ran an ad saying Washington is broken. No kidding. It took him 26 years to figure it out," Obama said. :biggrin:

[the4thpip]

As for Obama's supposed crowd of 200,000, some sources are actually estimating it was only 20,000 (the German media that covered the event at the time). It was Obama's campaign that decided upon the 200,000 figure:

I watched and read and listened to the German media at the time. They all gave 200,000 as the low estimate.

[Corrina]

Crowd counting is odd.

There was a piece recently in the NY Times about the crowds attributed to the concerts on the Great Lawn in Central Park. Basically, the police eyeballed and gave a figure. And it didn't get more scientific than that. For Paul Simon, I think the original crowd count was insanely high--at least in the six figures.

But they are crunching the numbers now with the square footage as they renovate the Great Lawn and they're finding that the crowd was vastly overestimated in just about every concert. What looks like the naked eye to be 200,000 is often far closer to 50,000.

So the question to ask is: who provided the crowd figure for Obama's speech and what method did they use?

All of which is a side issue. McCain hired Bush's 2004 campaign chair. Of course, he's making it all about McCain being a real American and Obama not being one at all.

[kingdom2000]

Sigh, people really are that stupid. Its the secret to Republican's success. It helps that they have created an education system that keeps people stupid too.

[Charles RB]

I watched and read and listened to the German media at the time. They all gave 200,000 as the low estimate.

This is twice now Samurai's cited the German media and you've corrected him from a position of Germaness.

It's fun!

[Samurai]

Crowd counting is odd.

There was a piece recently in the NY Times about the crowds attributed to the concerts on the Great Lawn in Central Park. Basically, the police eyeballed and gave a figure. And it didn't get more scientific than that. For Paul Simon, I think the original crowd count was insanely high--at least in the six figures.

But they are crunching the numbers now with the square footage as they renovate the Great Lawn and they're finding that the crowd was vastly overestimated in just about every concert. What looks like the naked eye to be 200,000 is often far closer to 50,000.

So the question to ask is: who provided the crowd figure for Obama's speech and what method did they use?

All of which is a side issue. McCain hired Bush's 2004 campaign chair. Of course, he's making it all about McCain being a real American and Obama not being one at all.

Obama's campaign are the ones who provided the 200,000 figure. According to the German police officer they talked to, they did it by assuming an average of 4 people every square meter over the entire area.

4 people standing in a 3' x 3' area means they are crushed together like sardines in a can. And while photos and reporters show that right up near the stage they might have been that close together, over most of the area they were far more spread apart.

[Corrina]

Links, Samurai. Where did you get that Obama's campaign provided the figure?

[Royal]

Toby Keith with Glenn Beck assist. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6hC4GdFOYQ)

[Samurai]

Links, Samurai. Where did you get that Obama's campaign provided the figure?

It says so in the 2 links I provided above...

The estimates given by German public television ZDF actually during the event, however, were as little as one-tenth of that number. ZDF began its special "Obama in Berlin" coverage [German video] at 6:45 p.m. Central European Time: only 15 minutes before the candidate's speech was scheduled to start. At the time, ZDF reporter Susanne Gelhard was out and about on the so-called "Fan Mile" between the Victory Column and the Brandenburg Gate. "The expectations were highly varied," she said in her live report, "from a few thousand up to a million. Those were the estimates. But, now, several tens of thousands have turned out." Barely five minutes before the speech was supposed to start, ZDF Berlin studio chief Peter Frey added, "We do estimate that 20,000 [literally, "a couple of ten thousand"] people have turned out." Frey's tone, like that of Gelhard, reflected the gap between the relatively modest number cited and the lofty predictions that had preceded the event. Moreover, while the ZDF live images showed that the "Fan Mile" was indeed populated from one end to the other, they also appeared to reveal patches of thinness and pedestrian traffic flowing easily on the half of the boulevard closer to the Brandenburg Gate (i.e. furthest from the "Victory Column").

As this German timeline indicates, the original source for the rapidly growing estimates was in fact the rally organizers: i.e. the Obama team. The 200,000 figure would also be attributed to the Berlin police -- which might represent the first time in modern history that the police and the organizers of a political rally agreed on their estimates of crowd size.

My previous post on Obama's Berlin crowd numbers has been discussed on many blogs and internet forums. In such discussions, the most common response of those defending the widely-cited 200,000 number is that it comes, after all, from the Berlin police department and the latter can hardly be suspected of colluding with the Obama campaign.

I yesterday contacted the press office of the Berlin police department to ask if the police was prepared to embrace the 200,000 estimate that has been attributed to it by several news organizations. "More than 200,000," I was told. When, however, I asked whether this was, then, the "official estimate" of the Berlin police, I was told rather that it was the number established by the police "with the organizers of the event" -- i.e. the Obama team.

As explained to me, moreover, the method used to arrive at the figure involved nothing more elaborate than assuming a given number of persons per square meter - four was mentioned as a maximum number - and extrapolating over the surface of the "fan mile." The problem with this procedure is that, as the visual evidence clearly reveals, the density of the crowd was by no means uniform. Four persons per square meter may well be a realistic assumption for the some several hundred meters closest to the stage: i.e. those several hundred meters that, perhaps not coincidentally, are the focus of virtually all the iconic images of the Obama crowd. But the density along the half of the boulevard closest to the Brandenburg Gate, where people were milling about at a seemingly comfortable distance from one another, was clearly far less. (For more visual evidence of the thinning of the crowd, see the Reuters photo here.)

In short, regardless of the estimate of the Berlin police -- and regardless of just why the Berlin police chose to produce this estimate in consultation with the Obama campaign -- to arrive at a credible figure, people will have to do the math for themselves.

[Adam C]

Toby Keith with Glenn Beck assist. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6hC4GdFOYQ)

"That's what I think they would say...?" God good that's unbelievably lame.

[Corrina]

Samurai, even your own DAMN LINK says:

In short, regardless of the estimate of the Berlin police -- and regardless of just why the Berlin police chose to produce this estimate in consultation with the Obama campaign -- to arrive at a credible figure, people will have to do the math for themselves.

*******************

Fact: The Berlin police gave that estimate.
Speculation: Why the Berlin police gave that estimate.

And the article is written by a guy who writes for the neoconservative New York Sun. AND IT'S ON THE COMMENTARY PAGE OF THE WEBSITE THAT YOU CITED.

COMMENTARY. Not even the news section.

And this is the last time I've giving any time or attention to any of your cites.

[Samurai]

Samurai, even your own DAMN LINK says:

In short, regardless of the estimate of the Berlin police -- and regardless of just why the Berlin police chose to produce this estimate in consultation with the Obama campaign -- to arrive at a credible figure, people will have to do the math for themselves.

*******************

Fact: The Berlin police gave that estimate.
Speculation: Why the Berlin police gave that estimate.

And the article is written by a guy who writes for the neoconservative New York Sun. AND IT'S ON THE COMMENTARY PAGE OF THE WEBSITE THAT YOU CITED.

COMMENTARY. Not even the news section.

And this is the last time I've giving any time or attention to any of your cites.

FACT: The original source for the estimate was the Obama campaign. It says it right here:

As this German timeline indicates, the original source for the rapidly growing estimates was in fact the rally organizers: i.e. the Obama team.

The Police later used the Obama campaign's figure as their own, and/or agreed with it after consulting the campaign.

But the Police, BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION, were not responsible for coming up with that figure, though they agreed with it.

Is it REALLY so hard to actually read an article without your "How can I twist this in order to create an argument with Samurai" blinders on? I'm not saying with absolute certainty that the figure is wrong, though if the figure was based on 4 people per sq meter, the pictures and reports show that that only applied to a small section of the area, near the stage. I just think that with the news reporters giving a figure 1/10th the size, and the Obama campaign being responsible for creating the 200,000 figure in the 1st place, even if they got the police to agree with it later, there is definitely room for suspicion and doubt here.

[Crowley]

FACT: The original source for the estimate was the Obama campaign. It says it right here:



The Police later used the Obama campaign's figure as their own, and/or agreed with it after consulting the campaign.

But the Police, BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION, were not responsible for coming up with that figure, though they agreed with it.

Is it REALLY so hard to actually read an article without your "How can I twist this in order to create an argument with Samurai" blinders on? I'm not saying with absolute certainty that the figure is wrong, though if the figure was based on 4 people per sq meter, the pictures and reports show that that only applied to a small section of the area, near the stage. I just think that with the news reporters giving a figure 1/10th the size, and the Obama campaign being responsible for creating the 200,000 figure in the 1st place, even if they got the police to agree with it later, there is definitely room for suspicion and doubt here.

Clearly German police are conspiring against the Republicans.

[Royal]

Damn those krauts

[FalconX2000]

I would like to remind everyone that the actual number of Germans at the Obama rally was 215,000; not the rounded down, simplified 200000 that is often cited.

[Samurai]

I would like to remind everyone that the actual number of Germans at the Obama rally was 215,000; not the rounded down, simplified 200000 that is often cited.

Where are you getting that? Cite your source.

[the4thpip]

This is twice now Samurai's cited the German media and you've corrected him from a position of Germaness.

It's fun!

"Der Spiegel" is considered one of the most respected and trustworthy news sources in all of Europe.

They have this on the Enlish language section of their web site:
He spoke to over 200,000 people who had thronged around the historic Victory Columnm, in the center of Berlin.

http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-33614-2.html#backToArticle=568551

Also keep in mind that the area around the victory column had previously been used for events like the Love Parade and celebrating our national football team after they came 3rd in the world cup and 2nd in the European cup, so police have a very good idea of how many people fit into that space when it is crowded from previous events.

The ZDF, however, is well known to be a tv station with a conservative slant.

[FalconX2000]

Where are you getting that? Cite your source.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-na-berlin25-2008jul25,0,3942684.story

http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/president/25880174.html?location_refer=sports

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_9989964

http://www.accountability-central.com/single-view-default/single-view-lexis-nexis/article/campaign-08-democrats-in-berlin-obama-calls-for-unity-with-europe-an-estimated-215000-attend-h/?tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=1&cHash=32b2f73eb6&type=98

http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?category=&storyID=706497&BCCode=&newsdate=7/25/2008

http://www.euractiv.com/en/elections/obama-wins-european-hearts-kennedy-speech/article-174518

http://andrewhammel.typepad.com/german_joys/2008/07/obama-in-berlin.html

After the speech, 215,000 people had to walk back up the Street of 17th June and out the Brandenburg Gate. That was too slow for many people, who tore down the flimsy barriers and filtered out through the Tiergarten. We followed them, and eventually ended up to the Schleusen Krug Biergarten, where we drank beer by the liter and enjoyed a piece of "Obama-cake,"' which is dark-brown on the outside, but cream-colored on the inside. With a tangy strawberry filling.

It really isn't all that hard to google.

Furthermore:

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/9609/berlinspeechns1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1457/berlinspeech2yz0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

That is very clearly far more than the figure you say, which is more suited to a typical Obama stadium rally.

[Samurai]

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-na-berlin25-2008jul25,0,3942684.story

http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/president/25880174.html?location_refer=sports

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_9989964

http://www.accountability-central.com/single-view-default/single-view-lexis-nexis/article/campaign-08-democrats-in-berlin-obama-calls-for-unity-with-europe-an-estimated-215000-attend-h/?tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=1&cHash=32b2f73eb6&type=98

http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?category=&storyID=706497&BCCode=&newsdate=7/25/2008

http://www.euractiv.com/en/elections/obama-wins-european-hearts-kennedy-speech/article-174518

http://andrewhammel.typepad.com/german_joys/2008/07/obama-in-berlin.html



It really isn't all that hard to google.

Furthermore:

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/9609/berlinspeechns1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1457/berlinspeech2yz0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

That is very clearly far more than the figure you say, which is more suited to a typical Obama stadium rally.


As for your links, the 1st one doesn't mention any number at all.

The 2nd says 2 million Germans in the headline, and 200,000 in the body of the text.

The 3rd says "more than 200,000".

The 4th says 200,000 first, and later claims the Berlin Police said it was 215,000... which contradicts the Berlin Police statement saying it was 200,000 in other reports.

The 5th says 215,000 in the headline, with no source for that figure, but says 200,000 in the body text.

The 6th says 215,000 without citing how or where they got the figure.

The last is a blog that again states the 215,000 without citing where or how they got that figure.

So, I hardly see that as the "real figure" when half your own links still say 200,000, the rest either give no source at all, or 1 states it was the Berlin Police, when they already said it was 200,000, a figure they themselves got from Obama's people.

Looks to me like a whole lot of either lazy or starry-eyed people are just taking figures given to them by Obama's campaign at face value, without question... why am I not surprised?

[Samurai]

Ya know, in the end, it doesn't really matter much how many Germans came out to see him. David Hasselhoff probably drew even bigger German crowds than Obama. At the end of the day, it's the American voters who'll decide.

[FalconX2000]

As for your links, the 1st one doesn't mention any number at all.

The 2nd says 2 million Germans in the headline, and 200,000 in the body of the text.

The 3rd says "more than 200,000".

The 4th says 200,000 first, and later claims the Berlin Police said it was 215,000... which contradicts the Berlin Police statement saying it was 200,000 in other reports.

The 5th says 215,000 in the headline, with no source for that figure, but says 200,000 in the body text.

The 6th says 215,000 without citing how or where they got the figure.

The last is a blog that again states the 215,000 without citing where or how they got that figure.

So, I hardly see that as the "real figure" when half your own links still say 200,000, the rest either give no source at all, or 1 states it was the Berlin Police, when they already said it was 200,000, a figure they themselves got from Obama's people.

Looks to me like a whole lot of either lazy or starry-eyed people are just taking figures given to them by Obama's campaign at face value, without question... why am I not surprised?

I am sorry, I relied on the google search page to tell me the pages that showed 215 000. That said, instead of criticising my lousy links, you could easily have typed "215,000 Germans Obama" and gotten all the info you wanted.

That said. YOU didn't read the third one. It says 215000 right below the headline.

The 4th one says that, and you're using the simplified number (200000) to dispute it. There's no logic to your argument.

You just skimmed the 5th one. It said more than 200000 in the body text and 215000 in the headline.

And the "didn't cite how and where they got the figure" argument is insane unless you're disputing the validity of the news site. They simply got it from where all the other news places got it. Plenty of places say it. All you have to do is google and it's all over the place.

http://cw20.trb.com/news/local/hc-obama0725.artjul25,0,4025182.story

http://www.baltimoresun.com/topic/la-na-obamatrip25-2008jul25,0,1249712.story?track=rss-topicgallery

[FalconX2000]

Ya know, in the end, it doesn't really matter much how many Germans came out to see him. David Hasselhoff probably drew even bigger German crowds than Obama. At the end of the day, it's the American voters who'll decide.

If it doesn't matter to you then there's no need to dispute it.

[Samurai]

I am sorry, I relied on the google search page to tell me the pages that showed 215 000. That said, instead of criticising my lousy links, you could easily have typed "215,000 Germans Obama" and gotten all the info you wanted.

That said. YOU didn't read the third one. It says 215000 right below the headline.

The 4th one says that, and you're using the simplified number (200000) to dispute it. There's no logic to your argument.

You just skimmed the 5th one. It said more than 200000 in the body text and 215000 in the headline.

And the "didn't cite how and where they got the figure" argument is insane unless you're disputing the validity of the news site. They simply got it from where all the other news places got it. Plenty of places say it. All you have to do is google and it's all over the place.

http://cw20.trb.com/news/local/hc-obama0725.artjul25,0,4025182.story

http://www.baltimoresun.com/topic/la-na-obamatrip25-2008jul25,0,1249712.story?track=rss-topicgallery

Right... they all got it from the same source, from news media to the Berlin police to bloggers... they all got it from Obama's campaign. That was my point.

Whatever the true figure, it was a large crowd, and I think it shows that Germans do like Americans, even if they haven't eaten a burger off the floor while in a drunken stupor! Or... wait a minute, did Obama release some home video of that before he arrived in Germany? :eek:

[FalconX2000]

Right... they all got it from the same source, from news media to the Berlin police to bloggers... they all got it from Obama's campaign. That was my point.

Whatever the true figure, it was a large crowd, and I think it shows that Germans do like Americans, even if they haven't eaten a burger off the floor while in a drunken stupor! Or... wait a minute, did Obama release some home video of that before he arrived in Germany? :eek:

And all other campaign rally turnouts are counted by...who?

[the4thpip]

Ya know, in the end, it doesn't really matter much how many Germans came out to see him. David Hasselhoff probably drew even bigger German crowds than Obama. At the end of the day, it's the American voters who'll decide.

Of course you know what will happen next.
David is gonna have a clip on youtube saying he is running for president. And he'll be naked, covered in puppies.

[bringthenoise]

And all other campaign rally turnouts are counted by...who?

Are you implying that McCain might not be entirely truthful in reporting turnouts? Next you'll be saying that the Pope is a Catholic!

[the4thpip]

By the way, the official maximum capacity for events on that stretch of road (the "fan mile") is 900,000. They had closed it at 750,000 soccer fans during the World Cup once, and expanded it to accommodate an extra 150,000.

http://www.berlin.de/fifawm2006/fanfest/index.php


Did it look like it was at about 1/20 capacity only?

[Charles RB]

But the Police, BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION, were not responsible for coming up with that figure, though they agreed with it.

But they did agree with it.

So the Berlin police do think there was that many.

So there isn't "room for suspicion and doubt" unless you think the police have it in for the Republicans.

I'm not saying with absolute certainty that the figure is wrong

You're certainly implying it very loudly.

[BnL]

Why is this even an issue at all? Am I missing the great importance?

[Charles RB]

Why is this even an issue at all? Am I missing the great importance?

Because if there weren't that many Germans, Obama's evil and lying and doesn't REALLY have that much support abroad VOTE MCCAIN VOTE MCCAIN.

Basically.

[FalconX2000]

Why is this even an issue at all? Am I missing the great importance?

No, but this is a political forum, not institution.

In a forum, we fight over every scrap of truth and end up with deadlock.

In an institution, both parties let go of all the unimportant stuff during the legislative process and achieve deadlock.

[FalconX2000]

http://www.istockanalyst.com/article/viewiStockNews+articleid_2486207&title=Brakes_Put_on_Obama_Gas.html

Rather interesting story. A florida station called "Gas Station TV" has refused to run an Obama ad at the last minute.

Gas Station TV -- whose slogan is "It's Always Prime Time at the Pump" -- was slated to run the 30-second ad for two weeks at pumps in Miami, Tampa and Orlando, according to documentation provided by the Obama campaign.

"The GSTV owners have signed off on this," a representative of ABC National Sales wrote in an e-mail.

"But no motorist saw the ad because, as Gas Station TV informed the campaign this afternoon, the company will not run ads that are damaging to oil companies," read a statement from the campaign issued Wednesday evening.

[GozertheGozarian]

http://www.istockanalyst.com/article/viewiStockNews+articleid_2486207&title=Brakes_Put_on_Obama_Gas.html

Rather interesting story. A florida station called "Gas Station TV" has refused to run an Obama ad at the last minute.
If I lived in Florida, I'd make a point not to buy anything at a GSTV.

[Grazzt]

"But no motorist saw the ad because, as Gas Station TV informed the campaign this afternoon, the company will not run ads that are damaging to oil companies"

I can't think of a better endorsement than saying he's going to damage oil companies.

[Corrina]

Why is this even an issue at all? Am I missing the great importance?

Well, it was mainly an exercise in checking Samurai's sources.

Now I know not to do that again because it won't be worth my time.

[Corrina]

Speaking of which, if I'm writing Obama's acceptance speech at the Democratic Convention, it would go something like this:

"The opposition is trying to convince you that I"m not a real American.

But the truth is that I'm the American dream, personified. I came from several ethnic backgrounds. My mother was a single mother. I had to work my way through college and law school. I am who I am because America offers the dream to all it's citizens. And I want to make it work to come true for all Americans.

If you all want to continue the way we have been for the last eight years, vote for my opponent. If you all want to move forward and make sure the American Dream is available to everyone, to make the promise of American came true and build a brighter future, vote for me."

The best political asset Obama has is his own story. That's the one that will resonate with voters, even those rural white voters, because it says "hell, I'm a mixed race African American man. If I can do it, you sure as hell can to."

[Cam63]

You mean Sam's sources aint on the level !?

That no make sence !

[Royal]

Speaking of which, if I'm writing Obama's acceptance speech at the Democratic Convention, it would go something like this:

"The opposition is trying to convince you that I"m not a real American.

But the truth is that I'm the American dream, personified. I came from several ethnic backgrounds. My mother was a single mother. I had to work my way through college and law school. I am who I am because America offers the dream to all it's citizens. And I want to make it work to come true for all Americans.

If you all want to continue the way we have been for the last eight years, vote for my opponent. If you all want to move forward and make sure the American Dream is available to everyone, to make the promise of American came true and build a brighter future, vote for me."

The best political asset Obama has is his own story. That's the one that will resonate with voters, even those rural white voters, because it says "hell, I'm a mixed race African American man. If I can do it, you sure as hell can to."

Stop being Uppi...er...presumtious!

[Royal]

WTF people (http://www.tmz.com/2008/08/05/mccain-paris-is-my-energizer-bunny/)!!

In the unkindest cut of all, McCain's spokesperson Tucker Bounds tells TMZ that on the subject of energy, Paris is deeper than Barack. He says, "Sounds like Paris is taking the 'All of the Above' energy approach that John McCain has advocated -- both alternatives and drilling. Perhaps the reality is that Paris has a more substantive energy plan than Barack Obama."

Just hours ago, FunnyOrDie posted a video of Paris calling McCain "wrinkly" and pitching a hybrid energy policy.

[Cam63]

Why the fuck is Paris Hilton even being MENTIONED ?

Have more important issues been worn out ?

[Charles RB]

Why the fuck is Paris Hilton even being MENTIONED ?

Near as I can tell, McCain is doing so badly that Hilton's stunt suddenly becomes big news.

And that's doing pretty damn badly!

[the4thpip]

Why the fuck is Paris Hilton even being MENTIONED ?

Have more important issues been worn out ?

Just wait till the Hoff throws his hat in the ring.

[Corrina]

The Stephen Colbert Quote of the Day on my google homepage seemed appropriate to our discussion over the crowd size:

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant, ... One motto on the show is, 'Keep your facts, I'm going with the truth."

[Paul McEnery]

Well, it was mainly an exercise in checking Samurai's sources.

Now I know not to do that again because it won't be worth my time.

Well, it's more a fatuous exercise in Samurai trying to turn the tables on unreliable sources, as if reality herself were a partisan whore.

[rick]

Best and most true comic this week....



http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/7360/greenberg21jo9.jpg

[the4thpip]

MIAMI (AP) - A man is being held in Florida by federal authorities on charges of threatening to assassinate Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama.

Raymond Hunter Geisel was ordered held without bail Thursday at a brief court hearing.

The Secret Service says Geisel made the threat during a training class for bail bondsmen in Miami in late July. Another tipster said Geisel also threatened President Bush.

A search of Geisel's SUV and hotel room uncovered a loaded handgun, knives, dozens of rounds of ammunition, body armor and a machete. The SUV was wired with emergency lights.

Geisel told the Secret Service he was originally from Bangor, Maine. He contended he made no threat against either Obama or the president.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D92DKV5OI&show_article=1

[FalconX2000]

Best and most true comic this week....



http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/7360/greenberg21jo9.jpg

To be honest, the only fiscal conservative I know of seems to be Ron Paul. I also heard that with the levels of deregulation he wants, you'd have to rechristen America's economic system "The Anarchy Market".

Most of the rest only want the good part of being fiscally conservative (cut taxes) while not having the guts to match it with the bad part (cut spending). Why? Because the government needs a minimum level of income to function and there isn't as much fat as they would have us believe. The country is starving now because its burning as much or more energy than it did under Clinton and those before him, but isn't eating enough food to sustain itself.


http://www.mercurynews.com/politics/ci_10136832

It seems confirmed that both Clintons will be able to give a speech at the Democratic convention.

[the4thpip]

A journalist got paid for this (http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1830358,00.html)?

What is wrong with the media in your country??

[Royal]

A journalist got paid for this (http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1830358,00.html)?

What is wrong with the media in your country??

Eh. It could be just a story to give the rookie something to get his feet wet.

Or punishment.

*shrug*

We've had longer articles about nothing. This? ......meh.

[Infra-Man]

Obama's Veep Pump Fake? (http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/08/scooped-obamas-vp-choice-solve.php)

Could Obama be faking his current veep shortlist (Biden, Bayh, Kaine) to fake out the press and to surprise McCain? And could Obama really be eying Sebelius, Schweitzer, Gore, or Feingold?

[FalconX2000]

Obama's Veep Pump Fake? (http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/08/scooped-obamas-vp-choice-solve.php)

Could Obama be faking his current veep shortlist (Biden, Bayh, Kaine) to fake out the press and to surprise McCain? And could Obama really be eying Sebelius, Schweitzer, Gore, or Feingold?

I'm pretty sure Biden is out of the running already. Obama hasn't met with him much lately if at all, his wife hasn't met him, he's attacking John McCain for "26 years in Washington", there's the $20 million latino vote drive, he's just toured Indiana, etc.

[the4thpip]

I'm wondering why nobody is mentioning Dick Gephardt (could win over some disgruntled Clinton fans with his strong union ties) and only very few bring up General Wesley Clarke.

[FalconX2000]

Obama's Veep Pump Fake? (http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/08/scooped-obamas-vp-choice-solve.php)

Could Obama be faking his current veep shortlist (Biden, Bayh, Kaine) to fake out the press and to surprise McCain? And could Obama really be eying Sebelius, Schweitzer, Gore, or Feingold?

Wow....after reading the article on Feingold and related stuff, I'd say he's almost perfect.

He does come from a non-critical state (Wisconsin is probably Obama's already) and is actually a little bit further left than Obama.

On the other hand, he voted against FISA. Voted against the Patriot Act (only Senator to do so). Voted against the Iraq War. Is consistently centrist on guns. Ethics record with the Good Government Act and McCain-Feingold bill. The Use it or Lose it oil bill he's pushing is a superb idea. He's Jewish. He's got enough experience. That article makes a great case. I'd say he's a better pick than Kaine or Bayh, though of course we've heard absolutely nothing.

[FalconX2000]

I'm wondering why nobody is mentioning Dick Gephardt (could win over some disgruntled Clinton fans with his strong union ties) and only very few bring up General Wesley Clarke.

I like Clarke, but he's not charismatic enough for the masses, doesn't speak political speak well and doesn't bring much to the table beyond his great military strengths.

[Typo Lad]

Wow....after reading the article on Feingold and related stuff, I'd say he's almost perfect.

He does come from a non-critical state (Wisconsin is probably Obama's already) and is actually a little bit further left than Obama.

On the other hand, he voted against FISA. Voted against the Patriot Act (only Senator to do so). Voted against the Iraq War. Is consistently centrist on guns. Ethics record with the Good Government Act and McCain-Feingold bill. The Use it or Lose it oil bill he's pushing is a superb idea. He's Jewish. He's got enough experience. That article makes a great case. I'd say he's a better pick than Kaine or Bayh, though of course we've heard absolutely nothing.
I love that being Jewish is a point in his favor.

[the4thpip]

I love that being Jewish is a point in his favor.

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/uc/20080731/ldb080801.gif

[FalconX2000]

I love that being Jewish is a point in his favor.

I'm sorry, I'm not aware of what degree peoplewould have something against by someone being a Jew in the U.S. What I do know is that Obama is not as dominant in the Jewish vote as previous candidates. He'll need them if he wants Florida.

[Typo Lad]

I'm sorry, I'm not aware of what degree peoplewould have something against by someone being a Jew in the U.S. What I do know is that Obama is not as dominant in the Jewish vote as previous candidates. He'll need them if he wants Florida.
I wasn't mocking you. It's just nice to see "Jewish" as a positive. I'd say 20 years ago, it would still be an issue. Now, largely not.

The Jewish vote is largely a myth though, even in Florida. We're such a small percent of the population we don't really made a dent. We just seem more important because a larger percentage of us vote, but it's a large percentage of a very small base.

Obama would be far better served finding a VP who would help him score better with Latino voters. That's a huge deal.

[Nyarlathotep]

I'm wondering why nobody is mentioning Dick Gephardt (could win over some disgruntled Clinton fans with his strong union ties) and only very few bring up General Wesley Clarke.

Because Clarke attempted the Swift Boat John McCain and the intrepid media was right there to stop it!

You know, like they were when the actual Swift Boat attacks were against Kerry!

I may say this in a humorous way, but I think all of these people deserve horrible things to happen to them. Their laziness, stupidity, and complete lack of any sort of intergrity (let alone journalistic) has lead to thousands of deaths and I wouldn't be opposed to some of the talking heads being sent to the Hague with Bush and Co.

[cactusmaac]

I'm wondering why nobody is mentioning Dick Gephardt (could win over some disgruntled Clinton fans with his strong union ties) and only very few bring up General Wesley Clarke.

Gephardt has the personality of a vending machine. Clarke was in charge of a war 85% of Americans never heard of.



Obama would be far better served finding a VP who would help him score better with Latino voters. That's a huge deal.

Latino voter participation is very low. Obama needs to go after white men strongly if he wants to win. My guess for VP is Tim Kaine.

[Typo Lad]

Latino voter participation is very low.

Voter participation is low generally, but that's a good thing. It's an untapped well of votes. McCain's actually polling well with Latinos, last I checked.

It's certainly a better demographic to shoot for than the Jews. Liberal Jews are going to vote for him regardless, and Conservative (politically) Jews are going to vote against him by-and-large. There are very few Indie Jews or Centrists even. We tend to vote along party lines.

That's not to say I don't know any Jews who will be crossing party lines this November, but it's a rarity and not worth shooting for. Especially if we're banking on Florida, where (if I may be blunt) they still think the word "Shvartza" is socially acceptable.

Obama needs to go after white men strongly if he wants to win. My guess for VP is Tim Kaine.

"White men" is so generic though. I mean, what does that mean per se? There are real sub-demographics to consider. What about the Catholic vote? Protestant? Oh! Or the Atheist vote?

"White Men" is just too large a demo to shoot for. It encapsulates too much.

[FalconX2000]

Voter participation is low generally, but that's a good thing. It's an untapped well of votes. McCain's actually polling well with Latinos, last I checked.

It's certainly a better demographic to shoot for than the Jews. Liberal Jews are going to vote for him regardless, and Conservative (politically) Jews are going to vote against him by-and-large. There are very few Indie Jews or Centrists even. We tend to vote along party lines.

That's not to say I don't know any Jews who will be crossing party lines this November, but it's a rarity and not worth shooting for. Especially if we're banking on Florida, where (if I may be blunt) they still think the word "Shvartza" is socially acceptable.



"White men" is so generic though. I mean, what does that mean per se? There are real sub-demographics to consider. What about the Catholic vote? Protestant? Oh! Or the Atheist vote?

"White Men" is just too large a demo to shoot for. It encapsulates too much.

I am pretty sure Obama would torpedo his chances with an Atheist. The USA ain't ready.

[Typo Lad]

You don't have to have a candidate that is of the demo you're going after - just someone who plays to them in some way.

For example - the reason Dan Quayle was selected for VP was to lock the Evangelical vote. Not that he himself is, but his wife hails from a prominant Evangelical family. That was his main qualification, right there. And he did indeed lock that vote up.

[FalconX2000]

You don't have to have a candidate that is of the demo you're going after - just someone who plays to them in some way.

For example - the reason Dan Quayle was selected for VP was to lock the Evangelical vote. Not that he himself is, but his wife hails from a prominant Evangelical family. That was his main qualification, right there. And he did indeed lock that vote up.

The wife of a VP locks up a demographic vote...:frown:

[Typo Lad]

The wife of a VP locks up a demographic vote...:frown:
Silly, isn't it?

[KevinTBrown]

You don't have to have a candidate that is of the demo you're going after - just someone who plays to them in some way.

For example - the reason Dan Quayle was selected for VP was to lock the Evangelical vote. Not that he himself is, but his wife hails from a prominant Evangelical family. That was his main qualification, right there. And he did indeed lock that vote up.

Funny thing is, when Bush was up for re-election against Clinton, it was the fact that he had Quayle on the ticket that had me voting for Clinton. Quayle just came across as dumb as a box of rocks.

[FalconX2000]

Funny thing is, when Bush was up for re-election against Clinton, it was the fact that he had Quayle on the ticket that had me voting for Clinton. Quayle just came across as dumb as a box of rocks.

I don't know about his actual intellectual ability, but if he had become president, George W Bush's Bushisms would have just been the little brothers of Quaylisms.

I could sympathise with a couple of Dan's gaffs, but to me, telling a grade schooler to spell potato as potatoe after the kid spelt it right on the blackboard is a bigger gaff than anything Michael Dukakis did with a tank.

[FalconX2000]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26075878#26063129

Dan Abrams compiled some funny stuff McCain has done for comedy over the years. It's funny, if horribly acted, stuff.:biggrin:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26087101#26062281

Aww hell.:biggrin: McCain's campaign bus was sporting an Obama 08 bumper sticker.

[Typo Lad]

Funny thing is, when Bush was up for re-election against Clinton, it was the fact that he had Quayle on the ticket that had me voting for Clinton. Quayle just came across as dumb as a box of rocks.

Yes, but at that point, his idiocy was well known. At the time of first term, he was a young, charismatic guy who was a good way of locking in the Evangelical vote.

Then he opened his mouth to compare himself to JFK...

I don't know about his actual intellectual ability, but if he had become president, George W Bush's Bushisms would have just been the little brothers of Quaylisms.

I could sympathise with a couple of Dan's gaffs, but to me, telling a grade schooler to spell potato as potatoe after the kid spelt it right on the blackboard is a bigger gaff than anything Michael Dukakis did with a tank.

I love the defense that was later used: "I was correcting him based on the class material I was given" or some such nonsense.

[cactusmaac]

Voter participation is low generally, but that's a good thing. It's an untapped well of votes. McCain's actually polling well with Latinos, last I checked.

It's certainly a better demographic to shoot for than the Jews. Liberal Jews are going to vote for him regardless, and Conservative (politically) Jews are going to vote against him by-and-large. There are very few Indie Jews or Centrists even. We tend to vote along party lines.

According to the Pew Hispanic Center, whites cast 14 votes for every 1 Hispanic vote in the '06 elections. And this was coming off the the minor outrage over immigration.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/548/latino-electorate

The growth of the Latino vote continued to lag well behind the growth of the Latino population. This widening gap is driven by two key demographic trends: a high percentage of the new Hispanics in the population are either too young to vote or ineligible because they are not citizens.

As a result, while Latinos represented nearly half the total population growth in the U.S. between 2002 and 2006, the Latino share among all new eligible voters was just 20%.

The 5.6 million votes cast by Hispanics in 2006 represented 13% of the total Hispanic population. The 9.9 million votes cast by black represented 27% of the black population and the 78 million votes cast by whites represented 39% of the white population.

[Corrina]

I'm wondering why nobody is mentioning Dick Gephardt (could win over some disgruntled Clinton fans with his strong union ties) and only very few bring up General Wesley Clarke.

Gephardt is too much of a Washington insider and would be very contrary to the image that Obama is trying to project.

[kingdom2000]

Time for Some Campaignin (http://www.jibjab.com/originals/time_for_some_campaignin)

Hilarious video that makes fun of them all and very well done.

[Briareos]

Best and most true comic this week....



http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/7360/greenberg21jo9.jpg

Of course that comic only fails to mention that Reagan and Bush had a Democrat congress and that Clinton only got a surplus when the Republican congress forced him to. The current Bush administration also had a war to deal with that Clinton never had as well. If anyone wants to know what the country would look like if the Democrats got their way with economic policies one only needs to look to Michigan and their high unempoyment rates...

[Michael P]

Bush and the Republican Congress pissed that surplus away before the war even started.

Because, you see, while the Democrats may be "tax and spend," the Republicans are "don't tax and spend," which, from a fiscal responsibility point of view, is much worse.

[Buzz Dixon]

Bush and the Republican Congress pissed that surplus away before the war even started.

Because, you see, while the Democrats may be "tax and spend," the Republicans are "don't tax and spend," which, from a fiscal responsibility point of view, is much worse.A lot of genuine conservatives were quite upset as this Administrations policies. We may not have liked the Democrats' ideas, but we sure liked this even less!

[EdContradictory]

A lot of genuine conservatives were quite upset as this Administrations policies. We may not have liked the Democrats' ideas, but we sure liked this even less!

Why, you hated those policies so much you voted for them twice...

[Buzz Dixon]

Why, you hated those policies so much you voted for them twice...Kerry climbed to power by calling his brothers in arms rapists and murderers. If the Democrats couldn't figure out why this would keep him out of the White House, they deserved to lose.

[Grazzt]

Kerry climbed to power by calling his brothers in arms rapists and murderers. If the Democrats couldn't figure out why this would keep him out of the White House, they deserved to lose.

So you're saying that American soldiers in Vietnam never raped or murdered any civilians?

[Paul McEnery]

Kerry climbed to power by calling his brothers in arms rapists and murderers. If the Democrats couldn't figure out why this would keep him out of the White House, they deserved to lose.

You should be ashamed of yourself for being such a shit as to say that.

[Paul McEnery]

So you're saying that American soldiers in Vietnam never raped or murdered any civilians?

Far better that you should be a stooge like Colin Powell, who lied to his country about My Lai, and got very well treated for doing so.

[Nyarlathotep]

Far better that you should be a stooge like Colin Powell, who lied to his country about My Lai, and got very well treated for doing so.

Come on. That's ancient history. He betrayed the US this very decade when he repeated the lies of the Bush administration which he at the very least knew were half-cooked.

So you're saying that American soldiers in Vietnam never raped or murdered any civilians?

No, we're just not supposed to talk about it if we love America. I mean if you came back from war, a hero, and then came back not only to challenge the country to improve it's practices but also to bring your brothers in arms home from an illegal, unnecessary war, by god, you're just some fucking commie sympathizing french looking sissy.

Anyone who voted for Bush in 2004 after his lies, crimes, and misdeeds were known loved his party more than he loves his country, period.

[Pauly T]

So you're saying that American soldiers in Vietnam never raped or murdered any civilians?

Nobody's saying it didn't happen. They're just saying you can't say it happened.

[Buzz Dixon]

So you're saying that American soldiers in Vietnam never raped or murdered any civilians?All of them didn't, and it wasn't a matter of policy, and that's what Kerry was implying in his Senate testimony.

[rick]

Kerry climbed to power by calling his brothers in arms rapists and murderers. If the Democrats couldn't figure out why this would keep him out of the White House, they deserved to lose.


No Buzz, he did not.

What Kerry did was to take part in the Winter Soldier conference where other solders talked about their own experiences in the war, including the atrocities that they witnessed.

If you want to knock the man for doing that, it’s your business, but it’s a bit late now to knock him for something that his opponents pretended he did to hurt him in the election.

[rick]

All of them didn't, and it wasn't a matter of policy, and that's what Kerry was implying in his Senate testimony.

Want to give us a few quotes from that testimony to back it up?

[Grazzt]

All of them didn't, and it wasn't a matter of policy, and that's what Kerry was implying in his Senate testimony.

Okay, I just skimmed through his testimony (http://www.nationalreview.com/document/kerry200404231047.asp) and I don't see anything that implies that he implicates every U.S. soldier.

[Buzz Dixon]

Want to give us a few quotes from that testimony to back it up?http://www.nationalreview.com/document/kerry200404231047.asp

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit, the emotions in the room, the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam, but they did. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, tape wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country...

I would like to talk to you a little bit about what the result is of the feelings these men carry with them after coming back from Vietnam. The country doesn't know it yet, but it has created a monster, a monster in the form of millions of men who have been taught to deal and to trade in violence, and who are given the chance to die for the biggest nothing in history; men who have returned with a sense of anger and a sense of betrayal which no one has yet grasped...

In 1970 at West Point, Vice President Agnew said "some glamorize the criminal misfits of society while our best men die in Asian rice paddies to preserve the freedom which most of those misfits abuse" and this was used as a rallying point for our effort in Vietnam.

But for us, as boys in Asia, whom the country was supposed to support, his statement is a terrible distortion from which we can only draw a very deep sense of revulsion. Hence the anger of some of the men who are here in Washington today. It is a distortion because we in no way consider ourselves the best men of this country, because those he calls misfits were standing up for us in a way that nobody else in this country dated to, because so many who have died would have returned to this country to join the misfits in their efforts to ask for an immediate withdrawal from South Vietnam, because so many of those best men have returned as quadriplegics and amputees, and they lie forgotten in Veterans' Administration hospitals in this country which fly the flag which so many have chosen as their own personal symbol. And we can not consider ourselves America's best men when we are ashamed of and hated what we were called on to do in Southeast Asia...

There's more, but that's enough. And what exactly did the Winter Soldier Investigations "prove"?

http://www.wintersoldier.com/

On January 31, 1971, members of Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) met in a Detroit hotel to discuss war crimes they claimed to have participated in or witnessed during their combat tours in Vietnam. During the next three days, more than 100 Vietnam veterans and 16 civilians gave anguished, emotional testimony describing hundreds of atrocities against innocent civilians in South Vietnam, including rape, arson, torture, murder, and the shelling or napalming of entire villages. The witnesses stated that these acts were being committed casually and routinely, under orders, as a matter of policy.

In April, the VVAW stormed Washington in a week-long protest. At its height, spokesman John Kerry went before the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations to accuse the United States military of committing massive numbers of war crimes in Vietnam. The appearance launched Kerry's political career. The charges he made shocked and sickened a nation, changed the course of a war and stained the reputation of the American military for decades.

But the mass murder of civilians was never American policy in Vietnam. War crimes were the exception, not the rule. And the Winter Soldier tribunal itself -- which John Kerry had helped moderate -- turned out to be "packed with pretenders and liars."

=more in next post=

[Buzz Dixon]

= continued =

http://www.wintersoldier.com/staticpages/index.php?page=Swett_CID

The VVAW's Winter Soldier Investigation (WSI) took place in Detroit from Jan. 31 through Feb. 2, 1971. Financed primarily by pro-Hanoi actress Jane Fonda, the event's honorary national coordinator, WSI was the largest war crimes tribunal held in the US during the Vietnam War. Several of the discussion panel moderators were radical leaders who had previously met with top North Vietnamese and Vietcong representatives in Hanoi and Paris. Also present were leftist psychiatrists, psychoanalysts and clinicians, who pressured the witnesses to help end the war by publicly confessing their "crimes." Former VVAW member Steve Pitkin later recalled how the civilians went from man to man, "bombarding them; laying on the guilt." Pitkin signed an affidavit in 2004 charging that John Kerry and other VVAW leaders had coerced him into making a false statement.

WSI was the source of the allegations John Kerry presented to the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations in April 1971, at a hearing set up by antiwar Senators to showcase the VVAW's atrocity tales. The highly publicized appearance launched Kerry's political career and helped to create a lasting image of Vietnam veterans as drugged-out murderers too damaged to function in normal society. Justice was served in 2004 when a political movement led by some of the veterans John Kerry had defamed sank his presidential bid.

Investigating the winter soldiers

In 2005, I visited the National Archives at College Park, Maryland with Vietnam veteran and researcher John Boyle. Sifting through the limited material available, we found summary data for the WSI allegations the Army had investigated. The Army's Criminal Investigative Division (CID) had opened cases for 43 WSI "witnesses" whose claims, if true, would qualify as crimes. An additional 25 Army WSI participants had criticized the military in general terms, without sufficient substance to warrant any investigation.

The 43 WSI CID cases were eventually resolved as follows: 25 WSI participants refused to cooperate, 13 provided information but failed to support the allegations, and five could not be located. No criminal charges were filed as a result of any of the investigations. The individual CID case files, which had been available to the public beginning in 1994, were withdrawn from public access around 2003, when the National Archives realized that the documents should have been embargoed until the personal information they contained could be removed, or "redacted," as required by the Privacy Act of 1974.

Early in 2007, Boyle learned that a historian had copied the entire collection of CID war crime investigation summaries at the National Archives, including those involving the VVAW, while they were still publicly available. The historian permitted Boyle to photocopy these documents, which we have now posted at WinterSoldier.com:

Army CID Investigations of VVAW War Crimes Allegations

The CID summary reports are revealing. Most of the WSI participants refused to provide evidence to support their allegations. Some made statements that were contradicted by other witnesses, were discredited, or were not substantiated by subsequent investigation.

Several of the VVAW activists backtracked significantly on their WSI statements:

· Douglas Craig claimed at WSI that members of his battalion had fired mortar rounds each night into a local dump, intentionally killing civilians who were scavenging for food. Craig told investigators he had no direct knowledge of these events and expressed misgivings about making allegations in Detroit he could not substantiate.

· Larry Craig claimed at WSI that he watched US soldiers murder a Vietnamese civilian and, on another occasion, desecrate Vietnamese graves. Craig admitted to investigators that the man who was killed could have been Vietcong, and that the soldier allegedly digging in a cemetery could have been looking for weapons caches.

· Donald Donner claimed at WSI that Army personnel had murdered a Vietnamese male, intentionally wounded a 14-year-old Vietnamese girl, indiscriminately slaughtered livestock and failed to bury enemy dead. Donner admitted to the CID that his stories were actually lies, rumors and accounts of accidental events.

· John Lytle claimed at WSI that his unit murdered civilians by destroying villages with artillery fire without making any effort to determine who was there. However, Lytle told the CID that the villages were actually fired on because it was suspected that Vietcong occupied them and incoming fire had been received from the area.

· Robert McConnachie claimed at WSI that Army troops in a convoy threw C-ration cans at Vietnamese children with such force as to kill one or two. He also said an artillery unit had intentionally shelled a hospital and killed civilians. McConnachie backtracked when questioned by military investigators, saying that no Vietnamese children were actually killed by troops throwing C-rations. He said he now believed that the alleged killing of civilians in a hospital by artillery fire was accidental.

· Ronald Palosaari claimed at WSI that Army troops killed two children and an old lady by throwing a grenade into a bunker next to a house. He also said he saw a Vietnamese soldier cut off the ear of a NVA soldier who had just been killed. Interviewed by Army investigators, Palosaari was unable to provide specific dates, locations or the names of any individuals involved in the alleged grenade incident. He admitted that he did not actually witness the mutilation of any enemy dead.

· Donald Pugsley claimed at WSI that a helicopter gunship strafed and killed water buffalo. He admitted to investigators that no water buffalo were actually fired upon.

· Kenneth Ruth claimed at WSI to have witnessed the torture of Vietcong suspects, and told Life Magazine that he saw troops test fire weapons into a village, wounding 43 civilians. However, Ruth admitted to Army investigators that he had no personal knowledge of such an event. The CID found his torture claims unsubstantiated.

· George Smith claimed at WSI that members of his Special Forces unit had beaten enemy prisoners and placed them in small barbed-wire cages. Smith backtracked on these claims when interviewed by Army investigators, saying that the alleged acts were actually committed by South Vietnamese forces rather than American troops.

· David Stark claimed at WSI that hundreds of Vietnamese civilians were killed by indiscriminate bombing and strafing in the Saigon area during late 1968. He also claimed to have witnessed the maltreatment of prisoners. However, Stark told CID interviewers that he actually saw no bodies, was unable to identify the aircraft or military units involved in the attacks or the cleanup operation, and admitted that he had never witnessed maltreatment of prisoners, except for a single occasion when he said he saw a prisoner pushed and shoved by two South Vietnamese officers.

The only Army witness to appear at WSI whose allegations have been substantiated was James Henry. Military authorities closed Henry's case, which had already been under review for nearly a year by the time of WSI, after "an extensive investigation did not reveal sufficient evidence to prove or disprove Mr. Henry's allegations." However, the CID also opened a supplemental investigation into whether a group of civilians had been killed by US troops. The results of that investigation indicate that crimes were probably committed, but no documentation of any prosecutions has been found or reported.

The Naval Investigative Service (NIS) was ordered to investigate charges made at WSI by VVAW members representing themselves as veterans of the Navy or Marines. Their reports have not been located, and it is uncertain whether they were destroyed or are lost in the vast government archives system. Historian Guenter Lewy cited a summary report by NIS in his 1978 book America in Vietnam, noting that many participants refused to provide evidence to Navy investigators, and others backtracked on their stories â€" the same pattern found in the newly discovered Army CID documents. Lewy also reported that several veterans told the NIS in sworn statements corroborated by witnesses that they had not been in Detroit -- i.e., the VVAW activists who used their names were imposters.

It is unfortunate that the military didn't simply release the results of the investigations as they were completed. America's Vietnam veterans might have been spared several decades of public distrust and contempt stimulated by the leftist "baby-killer" agitprop. Unfortunately, US military leaders during the Vietnam era failed to understand that home-front psychological warfare operations pose at least as great a threat to the military's ability to successfully complete its mission as enemy operations in the field.

[Paul McEnery]

All of them didn't, and it wasn't a matter of policy, and that's what Kerry was implying in his Senate testimony.

No he wasn't, and you're lying.

[Grazzt]

And from the section you gave:

The only Army witness to appear at WSI whose allegations have been substantiated was James Henry. Military authorities closed Henry's case, which had already been under review for nearly a year by the time of WSI, after "an extensive investigation did not reveal sufficient evidence to prove or disprove Mr. Henry's allegations." However, the CID also opened a supplemental investigation into whether a group of civilians had been killed by US troops. The results of that investigation indicate that crimes were probably committed, but no documentation of any prosecutions has been found or reported.

Yeah, that's wonderful. No prosecutions despite the fact that a crime has probably been committed.

[rick]

Buzz, you sort of skipped over the most important statement....



They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, tape wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country...


The Winter Soldier conference was about people telling their personal experiences.

And just because some of the participants were later proven to have not been telling the truth does not translate in any way into John Kerry damming all veterans or that all of the veterans were lying.

And most importantly, what was damming American soldiers as war criminals to the public in December 1970, wasn’t John Kerry, but instead was the public finding out a few months before the conference about the 1968 massacre at Mai Lai and the militaries attempt to cover the murders up.

[Buzz Dixon]

Buzz, you sort of skipped over the most important statement....




The Winter Soldier conference was about people telling their personal experiences.

And just because some of the participants were later proven to have not been telling the truth does not translate in any way into John Kerry damming all veterans or that all of the veterans were lying.

And most importantly, what was damming American soldiers as war criminals to the public in December 1970, wasn’t John Kerry, but instead was the public finding out a few months before the conference about the 1968 massacre at Mai Lai and the militaries attempt to cover the murders up.No, I provided a quote that showed most of these purported "eyewitness" testimonies and "confessions" were unconfirmed.

I was in the military at the tail end of the Vietnam war (I was stationed in Korea, not Vietnam, however). As the war closed down, many soldiers were transferred from Vietnam to Korea to give them a chance to "depressurize" before returning to civilian life.

I know what my fellow service men were like. I heard their stories, and I saw their disgust at the accusations leveled against them. I also saw the popular but factually unsubstantiated charge that Vietnam vets were, as a group, more unstable, more violent, more prone to drug addiction than the general population. Again, false.

There's a very large number of veterans in this country. The bulk of people in this country have close friends or family members who are veterans. For the Democrats to have sent Kerry out and not been prepared to respond to attacks by irate veterans and the families of veterans shows arrogance and ignorance.

I'm sickened by this current Administration. Fiscal policies are bad enough, but the systemized use of torture has pushed me out of the Republican camp for the foreseeable future.

The Democrats in general and Barack Obama in particular are going to need millions of people like me to win this fall. We are ready to switch our votes. Kerry is yesterday's news; he's been kicked to the curb, leave him there and concentrate on electing somebody without his rotting baggage.

[Tetsuo_man]

The many homes of the mccains
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Glia_Vrbc8

[Tetsuo_man]

and mccain's life in a minute.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC1zvDarGs4

[Grazzt]

I know what my fellow service men were like. I heard their stories, and I saw their disgust at the accusations leveled against them. I also saw the popular but factually unsubstantiated charge that Vietnam vets were, as a group, more unstable, more violent, more prone to drug addiction than the general population. Again, false.

You're leveling fault at the wrong people. It's not the ones that are overzealous in trying to bring these things to light who were responsible for that sort of public opinion. It's the people who tried to cover up the war crimes that did happen, and then weren't punished once they were revealed. Once that happened, it's easy for people to lose faith in the military.

[Nyarlathotep]

I know what my fellow service men were like.

Like every other American. Some willing to accept the ugly truth. Some not capable of that honesty. Nothing has changed between now and then. We still have soldiers in another illegal war who have confused serving Bush, Haliburton, and Shell with serving their country. I'm friends with one. He still thinks he was, somehow, protecting our freedom by going to Iraq. He saw the shit end of the stick while there, yet is still a typical angry, sensitive conservative. Then there are plenty who come back who haven't had to disconnect from reality.

[section 8]

Nobody's saying it didn't happen. They're just saying you can't say it happened.

Oliver Stone, as well as countless other vets would disagree, in fact such crimes are (or so i thought) common knowledge.

Keeping this in mind, the actions (no matter how abominable) of a few shouldn't necessarily reflect the whole.

[Paul McEnery]

There's a very large number of veterans in this country. The bulk of people in this country have close friends or family members who are veterans. For the Democrats to have sent Kerry out and not been prepared to respond to attacks by irate veterans and the families of veterans shows arrogance and ignorance.


And again, you're lying.

The same way you lied to say people were angry at Clinton, you're now inventing people who were angry at Kerry.

In fact, the only people who attacked Kerry on this issue were paid shills who are themselves members of far right organizations.

So that's two for two today on telling outrageous lies against Democratic politicians. But this one is a helluva lot worse.

[Sabrinaset]

In fact, the only people who attacked Kerry on this issue were paid shills who are themselves members of far right organizations.

The way you bolded "not been prepared to respond", I'm assuming you're really mad at the Democrat Party Imperial Poobahs who didn't have a clue how to attack or defend for Kerry ... on anything. Not that Kerry was any better at it, really.

What have I always said, Mr. McEnery? If the Democrats really wanted to win ... they shouldn't have nominated Lurch. Dean would have put up a far superior fight if he hadn't self-destructed.

[Nyarlathotep]

Seriously, is this how people who voted for Bush sleep at night? By reducing the election to Monday morning quarterbacking and ignoring the damage they helped bring to this country?

[rick]

No, I provided a quote that showed most of these purported "eyewitness" testimonies and "confessions" were unconfirmed.

I was in the military at the tail end of the Vietnam war (I was stationed in Korea, not Vietnam, however). As the war closed down, many soldiers were transferred from Vietnam to Korea to give them a chance to "depressurize" before returning to civilian life.

I know what my fellow service men were like. I heard their stories, and I saw their disgust at the accusations leveled against them. I also saw the popular but factually unsubstantiated charge that Vietnam vets were, as a group, more unstable, more violent, more prone to drug addiction than the general population. Again, false.



I’m a few years younger then you Buzz and didn’t go into the service until the early 1980’s.

However I served with people who had been in Vietnam and more importantly I knew all sorts of guys during the 1970’s who were veterans of the war and had their own horror stories about being there.

And yes, to a man all of them were downright pissed off at some of the things that they were accused of. But oddly enough Buzz, at some point in time, almost all of them had some story of some really horrible action that they either witnessed or took part in to share.

It wasn’t all horror show, but don’t pretend that the horror show wasn’t still there.





There's a very large number of veterans in this country. The bulk of people in this country have close friends or family members who are veterans. For the Democrats to have sent Kerry out and not been prepared to respond to attacks by irate veterans and the families of veterans shows arrogance and ignorance.


I’m sorry to say that mostly it shows ignorance on the part of the veterans and their families.

That people were idiotic enough in two separate elections to ignore the guys who actually went to Vietnam and instead to treat the guy who hid out at home as the war hero clearly demonstrated to me that most Americans, veterans or otherwise are complete idiots.



We are ready to switch our votes. Kerry is yesterday's news; he's been kicked to the curb, leave him there and concentrate on electing somebody without his rotting baggage.


Despite our political differences, I do agree that Obama is the future and it is time to move away from the politicians and politics of the Boomer era.

[Paul McEnery]

The way you bolded "not been prepared to respond", I'm assuming you're really mad at the Democrat Party Imperial Poobahs who didn't have a clue how to attack or defend for Kerry ... on anything. Not that Kerry was any better at it, really.

What have I always said, Mr. McEnery? If the Democrats really wanted to win ... they shouldn't have nominated Lurch. Dean would have put up a far superior fight if he hadn't self-destructed.

You might notice that I didn't in fact bold that line.

No, I'm mad at the fascist pricks who attacked Kerry's service record. And I'm mad at the fascist pricks who had it in for him in the first place for exposing the war crimes of his country.

And I'm mad at Buzz for blithely repeating these lies.

[Sabrinaset]

I guess the only answer to this ...

Seriously, is this how people who voted for Bush sleep at night? By reducing the election to Monday morning quarterbacking and ignoring the damage they helped bring to this country?

...is THIS:

First of all, welcome to the internet.

You'll be happy to know that the whole world is not on it. The inconsistency you think you've discovered is just an illusion based on your false belief that this place is somehow representative of a whole out there in the real world.

[Buzz Dixon]

That people were idiotic enough in two separate elections to ignore the guys who actually went to Vietnam and instead to treat the guy who hid out at home as the war hero clearly demonstrated to me that most Americans, veterans or otherwise are complete idiots.They voted for Clinton, a draft dodger and a shirker, over two WWII combat vets, one of whom had been shot down by the Japanese, the other who had been maimed in combat with the Germans.

[Michael P]

They voted for Clinton, a draft dodger and a shirker, over two WWII combat vets, one of whom had been shot down by the Japanese, the other who had been maimed in combat with the Germans.

Gee, maybe military experience isn't all it's cracked up to be as a presidential qualification, then.

[rick]

They voted for Clinton, a draft dodger and a shirker, over two WWII combat vets, one of whom had been shot down by the Japanese, the other who had been maimed in combat with the Germans.


Fair point.

[FalconX2000]

And again, you're lying.

The same way you lied to say people were angry at Clinton, you're now inventing people who were angry at Kerry.

In fact, the only people who attacked Kerry on this issue were paid shills who are themselves members of far right organizations.

So that's two for two today on telling outrageous lies against Democratic politicians. But this one is a helluva lot worse.

I really don't see Buzz lying. Whether his points have merit may be up for debate, but he's not Samurai.

No Buzz, he did not.

What Kerry did was to take part in the Winter Soldier conference where other solders talked about their own experiences in the war, including the atrocities that they witnessed.

If you want to knock the man for doing that, it’s your business, but it’s a bit late now to knock him for something that his opponents pretended he did to hurt him in the election.

The Winter Soldier Conference? Will there be one for Captain America after this war is over?

[Michael P]

So now the McCain campaign is saying Obama might be the Antichrist. (http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/2008/08/unsubtle.html)

This has now gone past funny, into sad, and right back out into funny again.

[FalconX2000]

To be fair, that's another reinterpretation of the same ad he's been running. I didn't see any such references. They just seemed to be trying to make fun of Obama's 'perfection aura'. Badly, stupidly, but I didn't see world ender in there.

[Paul McEnery]

I really don't see Buzz lying. Whether his points have merit may be up for debate, but he's not Samurai.

Perhaps you have a different meaning for the idea "deliberately saying something that is untrue".

[Paul McEnery]

Fair point.

No, it isn't.

Calling Clinton a draft dodger is libelous bullshit.

It's also completely irrelevant.

And maliciously irrelevant.

The issue of who's a draft dodger has only been of importance in living memory in the 2004 election, and only then because Bush was willing to send people into combat on false pretexts, when he was himself unwilling to serve.

Oh, and in retrospect, also in the Bush Gore election, for the same reason.

[FalconX2000]

Perhaps you have a different meaning for the idea "deliberately saying something that is untrue".

No, we share the same definition idea. You're calling Buzz dishonest. I don't think he is. Wrong perhaps, but not lying.

[Paul McEnery]

No, we share the same definition idea. You're calling Buzz dishonest. I don't think he is. Wrong perhaps, but not lying.

It's a local knowledge thing. This is a bog standard lie that's been told about Kerry since the Vietnam War. Everyone knows it isn't true. Everyone knows that what Kerry did took balls. But some people on the right will never forgive him for it, because what he said implies that the US government deliberately committed war crimes.

Of course, that's absolutely true, and it's been true in a multitude of countries over the last 60 years. Which strikes me as a betrayal of what America stands for.

But for some people on the right, the betrayal isn't committing the war crimes, it's speaking up about them.

Given that Buzz is saying that this administration has gone too far, and given that America did just as bad things -- in fact, worse -- during the Vietnam War, it's a bit of a double standard, to say the least.

[the4thpip]

The many homes of the mccains
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Glia_Vrbc8

Man of the people! Man of the people!

[the4thpip]

AP says new McCain ad is based on "on outdated material that has been widely debunked."
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gYpS6G-fl1u-yS2zifc0FsveuPGwD92E8AVO0

[the4thpip]

It's a local knowledge thing. This is a bog standard lie that's been told about Kerry since the Vietnam War. Everyone knows it isn't true. Everyone knows that what Kerry did took balls. But some people on the right will never forgive him for it, because what he said implies that the US government deliberately committed war crimes.

Of course, that's absolutely true, and it's been true in a multitude of countries over the last 60 years. Which strikes me as a betrayal of what America stands for.

But for some people on the right, the betrayal isn't committing the war crimes, it's speaking up about them.

Given that Buzz is saying that this administration has gone too far, and given that America did just as bad things -- in fact, worse -- during the Vietnam War, it's a bit of a double standard, to say the least.


In his defense, I think Buzz has conditioned himself to believe the lie. He is not saying anything he believes to be false, even though it clearly is.

[FalconX2000]

Man of the people! Man of the people!

In fairness, if I had that much money...maybe I wouldn't have that many houses, but I'd have 2 or 3 really awesome ones worth tens of millions of $$, custom designed. And a private cook.

What is worthy of contempt is when, with such a candidate, right wingers try to portray Obama as elitist because he likes berry tea and nutrition bars.

[Nyarlathotep]

I guess the only answer to this ...



...is THIS:

That was a rather pathetic attempt. I live in a place filled with people who betrayed this country and voted for Bush in 2004. I talk to them IRL, and they have nothing but the same lame, pathetic, dishonest, and desperate excuses you and others here are offering. Either pretend Bush isn't bad or blame the Democrats for somehow forcing you to vote for your party instead of your country.

[FalconX2000]

That was a rather pathetic attempt. I live in a place filled with people who betrayed this country and voted for Bush in 2004. I talk to them IRL, and they have nothing but the same lame, pathetic, dishonest, and desperate excuses you and others here are offering. Either pretend Bush isn't bad or blame the Democrats for somehow forcing you to vote for your party instead of your country.

Betraying your country = treason.

Voting = Belief in the democratic system fundamental to the existence of the country

People who voted Bush made a bad choice and very likely worked against their overall interests, but saying that they betrayed their country just because they did so is slanderous.

[Samurai]

That was a rather pathetic attempt. I live in a place filled with people who betrayed this country and voted for Bush in 2004. I talk to them IRL, and they have nothing but the same lame, pathetic, dishonest, and desperate excuses you and others here are offering. Either pretend Bush isn't bad or blame the Democrats for somehow forcing you to vote for your party instead of your country.

Oh, you poor thing! Why don't you do what Paul did and move somewhere chock full of other radical leftists who share your hatred of America?

[the4thpip]

Oh, you poor thing! Why don't you do what Paul did and move somewhere chock full of other radical leftists who share your hatred of America?

Samurai, you turned into a parody of yourself years ago. It will be interesting to see how you deal with a President Obama.

[FalconX2000]

Oh, you poor thing! Why don't you do what Paul did and move somewhere chock full of other radical leftists who share your hatred of America?

And the same goes for you Samurai.

[Nyarlathotep]

Betraying your country = treason.

That's like saying killing = murder. Murder, like treason, is a crime. It's on the books and you can be prosecuted for it, but there are plenty of ways you can kill someone without it being murder, let alone a crime. Ditto on betraying your country.

[Charles RB]

Samurai, you turned into a parody of yourself years ago. It will be interesting to see how you deal with a President Obama.

And by interesting, you mean horrible?

Also, doesn't Paul live in San Francisco, i.e. PART OF THE FUCKING UNITED STATES OF AMERICA? Did Samurai just say the entire population of that city hate their own country?

What a twonk.

[Nyarlathotep]

I'll go on record and say, outside of people like him who get voices in the national media, I have a lot more respect for someone like Samurai who embraces the full insanity instead of just trying to bullshit and rationalize his support of it. At least he has the guts and courage to stand by his absurd convictions. I will always respect, on a personal level, that more than people who vote the assholes in then continually come up with excuses for it. Same rules apply to religious fundamentalists vs so called moderates. Sure it's better for the world if all the crazies moved more to the middle at least, but at least it takes balls to be on the crazy end.

[GozertheGozarian]

I'll go on record and say, outside of people like him who get voices in the national media, I have a lot more respect for someone like Samurai who embraces the full insanity instead of just trying to bullshit and rationalize his support of it. At least he has the guts and courage to stand by his absurd convictions. I will always respect, on a personal level, that more than people who vote the assholes in then continually come up with excuses for it. Same rules apply to religious fundamentalists vs so called moderates. Sure it's better for the world if all the crazies moved more to the middle at least, but at least it takes balls to be on the crazy end.
You need to read more of Samurai's posts, you'll change your mind.

[Charles RB]

I'll go on record and say, outside of people like him who get voices in the national media, I have a lot more respect for someone like Samurai who embraces the full insanity instead of just trying to bullshit and rationalize his support of it. At least he has the guts and courage to stand by his absurd convictions. I will always respect, on a personal level, that more than people who vote the assholes in then continually come up with excuses for it. Same rules apply to religious fundamentalists vs so called moderates. Sure it's better for the world if all the crazies moved more to the middle at least, but at least it takes balls to be on the crazy end.

There is no honour or prestige in being a fundamentalist who refuses to admit they're wrong.

[FalconX2000]

That's like saying killing = murder. Murder, like treason, is a crime. It's on the books and you can be prosecuted for it, but there are plenty of ways you can kill someone without it being murder, let alone a crime. Ditto on betraying your country.

I actually share that point of view. Unfortunately the distinction didn't occur to me as my attention was focused on a seperate part of the point.

I'll go on record and say, outside of people like him who get voices in the national media, I have a lot more respect for someone like Samurai who embraces the full insanity instead of just trying to bullshit and rationalize his support of it. At least he has the guts and courage to stand by his absurd convictions. I will always respect, on a personal level, that more than people who vote the assholes in then continually come up with excuses for it. Same rules apply to religious fundamentalists vs so called moderates. Sure it's better for the world if all the crazies moved more to the middle at least, but at least it takes balls to be on the crazy end.

If by respect, you mean acknowledge his potential power, then yes I do respect Samurai. If left unchecked he can and will convince people of all kinds of falsehoods. If you mean as a person, then not really. It's not like he doesn't have good qualities, but Bush has good qualities too. I'm sure Cheney has some.

Elections ain't quite so simple. Alot of people can't, or at least are not in a easy position to, actually go through the vast swaths of information and misinformation to perfectly determine the positions and history of a candidate, then analyse their character based on closely monitored decisions over a number of months. Those people aren't necessarily at all bad people.

[Samurai]

Samurai, you turned into a parody of yourself years ago. It will be interesting to see how you deal with a President Obama.

Unfortunately, you may just get a chance to see that...

[Samurai]

And by interesting, you mean horrible?

Also, doesn't Paul live in San Francisco, i.e. PART OF THE FUCKING UNITED STATES OF AMERICA? Did Samurai just say the entire population of that city hate their own country?

What a twonk.

"Chock full of" doesn't mean "every single person/the entire population". I can see your reading comprehension still hasn't improved.

And lest you forget, I lived in the bay area 5 years myself, so I know first hand the political climate in places like Berkeley and SF.

[Charles RB]

Yes, it is unfortunate that we'll get to see you through a wobbly every day for four years if he gets in.


And lest you forget, I lived in the bay area 5 years myself, so I know first hand the political climate in places like Berkeley and SF.

I believe you've lived there. I don't believe you are in any way accurate in saying the political climate is "OMG THEY HATE AMERICA!".

Because it's you talking.

[Michael P]

Oh, you poor thing! Why don't you do what Paul did and move somewhere chock full of other radical leftists who share your hatred of America?

Fuck you. .....

[FalconX2000]

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gGj1oIfYmFMaIMlkarP4RqJksKtgD92EQ1SO0

AP just did a comparison of both candidate's energy plans.

[Sabrinaset]

That was a rather pathetic attempt. I live in a place filled with people who betrayed this country and voted for Bush in 2004. I talk to them IRL, and they have nothing but the same lame, pathetic, dishonest, and desperate excuses you and others here are offering. Either pretend Bush isn't bad or blame the Democrats for somehow forcing you to vote for your party instead of your country.

I dunno, I thought using your own words against you seemed appropriate. I can understand why you wouldn't like it though because it's hard to argue your way out of it besides using an invective. I'll go easy on you because you're a newb here.

Yeah, I voted for Bush in 2004, although it was more along the lines of five issues I care about that Bush *said* he agreed with me on more than Kerry did more than anything else, and I mentioned that here before your time. It was also because of Bush, what he stood for, what he did, and how he completely tarnished what a Conservative is supposed to be to the point where people think he is a Conservative when in fact he's nothing of the kind at all that I quit the Republican Party, and I know I've mentioned that a few times before you popped in, and for many of the same reasons Buzz mentioned. Knowing what I know now, I probably wouldn't have even voted in 2004, or maybe voted for some fringe candidiate. And I'm voting for Obama this year, and again, Buzz said it better than I could, although if I had to put it in my own words, it's because Obama represents a political outlook of outreach, cooperation, and hope to me while McCain, well, doesn't.

I work in a place where, well, there's people of all political stripes running about. Heck, we have a Socialist running one of the desks next to a Dittohead, which is hilarious. And then I post here, where I think the Liberal/Conservative ratio is 20:1. And I'll be honest with you, it's arguments like the ones you post that are a part of the reason I can never, *would never* take it a step or two further and become a Democrat, because I have to assume the Democratic Party is full of people with the same kind of self-blinding partisanship that many Republicans have. I mean, okay, you've shared your views of what I'm like. From where I stand, here's what you represent: A worldview so full of antipathy for people who voted differently than you did and suchlike that you're unable to differentiate between people who still support Bush and people who no longer do. Yesterday, I made a post postulating the reason why Bush is awful, but you're still chugging along with the same tired old Bush hate and talking how people who voted for Bush are eeeeevil. It's not enough for you, it will never be enough for you, and I don't want to associate with the politics of someone who's that rigid in his thinking. Apparently in your worldview, people who voted for Bush but realize they made a big mistake don't exist.

It's not a surprise to me that you like Samurai. When someone here criticizes a Republican, Samurai makes it about Clinton, and well, you do the exact same thing. I've seen it in the Edwards thread, you admitted to saying what he did doesn't matter and attempted to turn it into a Bush-bashing thread, make it about anything, ANYTHING, except about Edwards, to the point where now everyone in America is a hypocrite because this story came out, rationalizing it because what Edwards did was, in scale, not as bad as what Bush has done. That much IS true, but the wonders of CBR mean that we can post about more than one thing here. We can bash Bush AND Edwards. I wouldn't call Cheney accidentally shooting a lawyer or whatzisname who got caught playing footsie in a restroom somewhere as important as the events in Iraq either, but darned if we didn't discuss them and have fun with them here too. That you seem unwilling to face that indicates a partisanship just as bad as Samurai's. Maybe even worse.

Heck, if I understand you correctly, there's only two kinds of Americans out there ... people who didn't vote for Bush, and "traitors". It must be nice having that kind of binary, fundamentalist thinking. What's next ... "You're either with us, or against us" ...?

[Samurai]

I dunno, I thought using your own words against you seemed appropriate. I can understand why you wouldn't like it though because it's hard to argue your way out of it besides using an invective. I'll go easy on you because you're a newb here.

Yeah, I voted for Bush in 2004, although I *think* it was probably more of a vote against Kerry than anything else, and I believe I mentioned that here before your time. It was also because of Bush, what he stood for, what he did, and how he completely tarnished what a Conservative is supposed to be to the point where people think he is a Conservative when in fact he's nothing of the kind at all that I quit the Republican Party, and I know I've mentioned that a few times before you popped in, and for many of the same reasons Buzz mentioned. And I'm voting for Obama, and again, Buzz said it better than I could, although if I had to put it in my own words, it's because Obama represents a political outlook of outreach, cooperation, and hope to me while McCain, well, doesn't.

I work in a place where, well, there's people of all political stripes running about. Heck, we have a Socialist running one of the desks next to a Dittohead, which is hilarious. And then I post here, where I think the Liberal/Conservative ratio is 20:1. And I'll be honest with you, it's arguments like the ones you post that are a part of the reason I can never, *would never* take it a step or two further and become a Democrat, because I have to assume the Democratic Party is full of people with the same kind of self-blinding partisanship that many Republicans have. I mean, okay, you've shared your views of what I'm like. From where I stand, here's what you represent: A worldview so full of antipathy for people who voted differently than you did and suchlike that you're unable to differentiate between people who still support Bush and people who no longer do. Yesterday, I made a post postulating the reason why Bush is awful, but you're still chugging along with the same tired old Bush hate and talking how people who voted for Bush are eeeeevil. It's not enough for you, it will never be enough for you, and I don't want to associate with the politics of someone who's that rigid in his thinking. Apparently in your worldview, people who voted for Bush but realize they made a big mistake don't exist.

It's not a surprise to me that you like Samurai. When someone here criticizes a Republican, Samurai makes it about Clinton, and well, you do the exact same thing. I've seen it in the Edwards thread, you admitted to saying what he did doesn't matter and attempted to turn it into a Bush-bashing thread, make it about anything, ANYTHING, except about Edwards, to the point where now everyone in America is a hypocrite because this story came out, rationalizing it because what Edwards did was, in scale, not as bad as what Bush has done. That much IS true, but the wonders of CBR mean that we can post about more than one thing here. We can bash Bush AND Edwards. I wouldn't call Cheney accidentally shooting a lawyer or whatzisname who got caught playing footsie in a restroom somewhere as important as the events in Iraq either, but darned if we didn't discuss them and have fun with them here too. That you seem unwilling to face that indicates a partisanship just as bad as Samurai's. Maybe even worse.

Bree, I'm very disappointed that you've fallen so far under their spell that, while you go all out to defend your own independent politics, you slam me at the same time by saying I'm the same as Nyarly! You know full well, and I've repeated many times, that I'm NOT a huge fan of Bush, and I disagree with him on numerous areas. I'm even LESS of a fan of McCain. I dislike his stances on probably half the issues out there. And I'm not a die-hard Republican, as I've told you before, I'm a conservative. The Republicans lately HAVE been moving away from conservatism on a number of issues, such as runaway spending and refusal to protect our borders. I've complained about these things publicly.

Like you, I voted against Kerry, not for Bush. Unlike you, I still think that was the right choice, despite Bush's failures, though both of us have no way of knowing the "What If?" scenario unless and until Marvel revives the series and decides to do a political special issue. And again, I'm voting against Obama, not for McCain. If McCain is elected, you can expect me to be pissed off at him regularly, as he'll try to push for amnesty, etc. But he'll be better than Obama, a dangerously naive and inexperienced guy who is letting his celebrity status go to his head, and who dislikes America and is determined to change it into something he'd prefer, with massive new taxes, required community service for high school and college kids, and quite possibly slavery reparations in some form or another, including expanding AA and hate crimes legislation. He's promised all of these things and more. So, while I dislike a lot of McCain's stances, he's still better than the prospect of a President Obama.

You may disagree for some reason. Maybe you like his actual stances on these things, despite your supposedly strong conservatism. More likely, you want to vote against Bush (who isn't running) and see a vote for Obama as your chance, despite his actual positions. You see the crowds responding to his speeches and the big push the media is giving him, and you're buying into his rhetoric. Sad, because you're turning your back on your conservative values to spite someone who isn't even running in '08, but understandable.

However, don't accuse me of being a die-hard Republican, because I'm no more one than you. We are both simply weighing the individual issues and candidates in our heads, and coming up with different answers. But I'm only going with McCain because he's the better viable candidate, not because I really like or agree with him. More than ever before in my lifetime, this election is a choice of the lesser evil, the better of 2 bad choices.

By the way, I'll have you know that I have never in my life given even a penny in donation to the Republicans (or any political party), I've also never helped with anyone's campaign, never distributed posters or stickers or pins, etc. When I have money to donate, it always goes to charity, NEVER a political party. They have more than enough money without me, and there are far better causes to give to.

[Nyarlathotep]

I dunno, I thought using your own words against you seemed appropriate.

But that's only because you don't seem to understand those words in the first place.

Apparently in your worldview, people who voted for Bush but realize they made a big mistake don't exist.

Sure they do. However, I only have sympathy for the ones who realized this after their 2000 vote. Everyone else has, at the very least, earned some harsh words over the internet. You should hear about and be ashamed about it for the rest of your life, because the damage you knowingly helped bring will go on far longer than that.

It's not a surprise to me that you like Samurai.

I didn't say I like him. I just said I respect his insanity more than the chickenshittery of others. That's all. But he's also so crazy it's impossible to take him seriously or bother responding to most of what he says.

I've seen it in the Edwards thread,

You've seen me express my frustration with lies about unimportant private matters meaning more to people than lies that brought this country to war and brought deaths to thousands. This is still news. We still hear about new Bush lies every month. People still don't care. McCain and Obama lie two, and these aren't being addressed but when someone tries to bring up McCain abandoning his wife I point out that it doesn't matter and I don't care. No one else outside his family should.

[KevinTBrown]

I applaud Bree.

At least she is using her brain to choose a candidate she feels is the right choice, instead of just blindly following a specific party come hell or high water.

You should try it sometime, Samurai.

[Nick Soapdish]

To be fair, I don't think that Bush has really done anything differently in his last term than he did in the first. It's just that the flaws are more obvious because he's had longer to do them.

I was attempting to argue with my dad about how Bush wasn't remotely close to what a conservative supposedly is, but all he wanted to talk about was the Swiftboaters. I guess it's not surprising that both of us were more interested in discussing the opposite candidate.

[Samurai]

I applaud Bree.

At least she is using her brain to choose a candidate she feels is the right choice, instead of just blindly following a specific party come hell or high water.

You should try it sometime, Samurai.

You obviously didn't read what I just wrote.

And how blindly are you following the Democrats, Kevin? Did you really look at McCain's stances and such, give him a fair shot and actually, in your heart, have a chance of voting for him, and only later decide to vote for Obama, or did you just say "Whoever has a "D" next to their name is getting my vote!"?

[Sabrinaset]

But that's only because you don't seem to understand those words in the first place.

Sure they do. However, I only have sympathy for the ones who realized this after their 2000 vote. Everyone else has, at the very least, earned some harsh words over the internet. You should hear about and be ashamed about it for the rest of your life, because the damage you knowingly helped bring will go on far longer than that.

I didn't say I like him. I just said I respect his insanity more than the chickenshittery of others. That's all. But he's also so crazy it's impossible to take him seriously or bother responding to most of what he says.

You've seen me express my frustration with lies about unimportant private matters meaning more to people than lies that brought this country to war and brought deaths to thousands. This is still news. We still hear about new Bush lies every month. People still don't care. McCain and Obama lie two, and these aren't being addressed but when someone tries to bring up McCain abandoning his wife I point out that it doesn't matter and I don't care. No one else outside his family should.

1) You don't appear to understand how your words came across. Look at them again ... they're quite fitting.

2) I was too young to vote in 2000. My strategy in 2004 was to come up with the issues that were important to me and vote for the candidate that shared my views. They are a) I'm pro-life b) pro-gun c) for lower taxes d) reduce the government, and e) gay rights. Bush was, in theory, for four of them, although it turned out he did nothing for any of them except c, only paid lip-service to a and b, and was about as bad as you can get on d. Kerry, it seemed to me, cared about mmmmaybe e), but I knew he'd do nothing about it. So no, I'm not ashamed of my vote in the way you want me to be because I was able to come up with a reason why I should vote for one guy over the other based on the issues that mattered to ME. Now again, if I knew then what I know now, I probably wouldn't have voted at all or would have voted for some fringe guy.Will I admit I was wrong? Sure. But I'm not going to feel ashamed because some fundy tells me I should be. Frankly, you're lacking in nuance here. To you, it's an either/or thing, and it's not, it's just not.

I do haveta admit to some amusement when wondering what you would do if you were Obama's campaign manager. Apparently according to the latest polls, him and McCain are running neck and neck with registered voters. This means that in order for Obama to win, he might have to have to pick up some Republican voters, and these are people who probably voted for Bush at least once. Just out of curiosity, how would you convince these Republicans to do so? "Okay, we know you guys are traitors, but give yourself a chance to redeem yourselves ... well, no, you'll never be able to do that, you should be ashamed for the rest of your lives. Just vote Obama, then go back to your useless pondscum existence"

I vaguely remember The4thpip, and to a certain extent Nick Soapdish, TC, McEnery, and Crowley being happy that I managed to reason my way out of a paper bag. Now, I'm not saying there isn't a place for you either, because I'm sure there is a place for fundy thinking. I just don't think you realize how much harm you're doing with your own political worldview. Think about it: Do you really think you could convince anyone to change their mind with that kind of argument? If Obama spoke the same way you do, do you honestly think ANY conservative would think about voting for him? Perhaps you should take a page from his handbook. A number of Republicans are jumping ship because they feel they have a place to jump to. We wouldn't be jumping at all if they know they were jumping to a place YOU were at. "Well, I hate Bush, so let's go join the political party where everyone thinks we're traitors and will hate us forever!" Yeah, right. I really hope you don't try persuading those people around you with the kind of reasoning you've used here, you'd only drive them further away. In fact, I STRONGLY suggest you not talk to them at all.

3) I used to defend Samurai in PM's, and sometimes here. I thought he was being ... well, dogpiled unfairly might be the best way to put it. I've given up. You'll learn too.

4) Obama's gaffes DO get covered here. McCain's ... oh geez. Crowley has them on a hotkey, I'm sure of it. EVERYTHING can get covered here. Just because your guy is being hammered for being a scumbucket doesn't mean someone else isn't being hammered as well. You look like a partisan tool when you do that, something I've been called on myself for as well. We can bash EVERYONE here. We multitask. In fact, there's times I read the threads here and get Bush fatigue because well, how many MORE times can people call him a fool before you get tired of reading about it, and it's not as if the Democrats are going to do anything about it anyway... another reason I won't become a Dem, they're freaking spineless. Geez, I look forward to reading about someone else screwing up because at least there's a brief moment when we can laugh at some other fool for awhile.

And you know, just because it isn't news to you, doesn't mean it isn't news to someone else. Or a bunch of someone elses. You don't get to determine what anyone else thinks is important here. A lesson I had to learn once or twice myself ...

I applaud Bree.

At least she is using her brain to choose a candidate she feels is the right choice, instead of just blindly following a specific party come hell or high water.

You should try it sometime, Samurai.

Thanks! :redface:

I was attempting to argue with my dad about how Bush wasn't remotely close to what a conservative supposedly is, but all he wanted to talk about was the Swiftboaters.

Let ME talk to him!!!

[Samurai]

I applaud Bree.

At least she is using her brain to choose a candidate I feel is the right choice, instead of just blindly following a specific party come hell or high water.

You should try it sometime, Samurai.
Fixed it for you... because anyone who uses their brain to choose a candidate you don't like certainly won't be applauded...

[Nyarlathotep]

1) You don't appear to understand how your words came across.

I don't care how they came across to you. I know what they meant and you don't so there's not much to discuss on that.

Bush was, in theory, for four of them,

So how many years, exactly, did you need to figure out that his theories weren't going to play out in reality? And weren't there a few bigger, more looming issues at the time? I seem to vaguely recall some having to do with humans who had already been born. You fell for the republican wedge bullshit at the worst possible moment for this country. You can justify it to yourself however you like, but you're not going to justify it.

I do haveta admit to some amusement when wondering what you would do if you were Obama's campaign manager.

Yes, because that's actually my day job. Campaign manager. Oh wait, no, that's your fallback defense. Talking about the election as if it were a football game. Now it'll be mean ol' liberals on the internets fault if Obama loses.

Now, I'm not saying there isn't a place for you either, because I'm sure there is a place for fundy thinking

What am I a fundamentalist about? Voting for officials who don't lie their way into illegal wars? Well, I guess so. If more people were "fundies" in 2004 and less people were like you then this, and a few other, countries would be better off.

Do you really think you could convince anyone to change their mind with that kind of argument?

There's no argument. Voting for Bush in 2004 was inexscusable. I don't care if you agree with that or not it's still going to be true because we already knew that Bush was a liar (about something actually important). We knew he didn't give a shit about those issues you mentioned and just used them to spin up gullible "fundy" christian conservatives. You voted for Bush in 2000? Okay. McCain in 2008? You know what, that's fine too. I merely would disagree with those. Bush in 2004 is a on a different planet. I know it makes you feel better to think people are just picking on you for making a different choice. That people are just being "partisan" but that's not the case. I damn near could have voted for the 2000 model of McCain, but I didn't have to make that choice because the moral guy you voted for spread rumors about McCain having a black love child.

4) Obama's gaffes DO get covered here. McCain's ... oh geez.

When did I say something about gaffes? Gaffes are gotcha media bullshit. I'm talking about flat out lies that the media don't cover with any of the fervor they are the personal lie of non-politician Edwards.

[the4thpip]

Unfortunately, you may just get a chance to see that...

And I will cherish every moment of it.

[Sabrinaset]

I don't care how they came across to you.

So why should I care that you're not getting it?

And weren't there a few bigger, more looming issues at the time?

To you, certainly, and to people who shared your view as well. But other people had other issues which were important to them. To you, it's just one issue, and you're unable to perceive anything else. Like I said, you appear to be without nuance on this. If people don't agree with the one issue you care about they're wrong. That's fundy thinking. Either/or. Binary logic. Think about it ... is there REALLY that much difference between what you're saying and Bush saying "If you're not with us, you're against us"?

"Everyone who didn't vote the way I did is a pathetic traitor!" = Fundy thinking. The fact that you're unable to see or acknowledge other ways of thinking, other possible viewpoints and that your way is the only true and correct way? Fundy thinking. If you can't see it, I don't know what else to say.

[Paul McEnery]

In his defense, I think Buzz has conditioned himself to believe the lie. He is not saying anything he believes to be false, even though it clearly is.

And, indeed, to retail it when there was no reason to do so.

[Samurai]

Think about it ... is there REALLY that much difference between what you're saying and Bush saying "If you're not with us, you're against us"?


Yes, because when Bush said it, he wasn't talking about people choosing to exercise their rights to vote Democrat or whatever party they wanted, he was talking about terrorists out to kill as many Americans as possible and countries that supported or harbored the terrorists. He wasn't dividing people along party lines, he was talking about the entire civilized world standing together against merciless killers bent on recreating the 7th century.

[Sabrinaset]

Yes, because when Bush said it, he wasn't talking about people choosing to exercise their rights to vote Democrat or whatever party they wanted, he was talking about terrorists out to kill as many Americans as possible and countries that supported or harbored the terrorists. He wasn't dividing people along party lines, he was talking about the entire civilized world standing together against merciless killers bent on recreating the 7th century.

It is quite possible to be against Bush and NOT be for the terrorists.

[Nyarlathotep]

To you, certainly, and to people who shared your view as well.

AKA people who cared about real issues that really mattered in this country, instead of pipe dreams of taking choices away from women and having lower taxes whenever they inevitably land that $600K/yr job. As I said, you fell for the wedge issues that the Republicans trot out for gullible people. You should have already known it was just talk, the previous 4 years should have let you know that.

If people don't agree with the one issue you care about they're wrong.

So do you often think people are right on issues that they disagree with you with?

I say that to point out how empty your words are right now. Sometimes people are right. Sometimes people are wrong. Sometimes it's not clear. Sometimes it is. When it comes to Bush in 2004 it was only unclear if you chose to keep your head in the sand, and for that you should be ashamed. 2000 Bush, 2008 McCain, those are different issues. 2004 is a singular moment in history that represents, as best as possible, the fundamental flaw of democracy. Congratulations on being a part of that.

That's fundy thinking.

Truth fundamentalist? I'll take that label. I'll call you a cow fundamentalist. Just because. Next person who posts is a chair fundy. Since we're just tossing out meaningless labels and all.

[Charles RB]

It is quite possible to be against Bush and NOT be for the terrorists.

Indeed - which is why most people across the world said "fuck OFF" when Bush said that.

[Samurai]

It is quite possible to be against Bush and NOT be for the terrorists.

Indeed - which is why most people across the world said "fuck OFF" when Bush said that.

It wasn't "most people around the world", as you call them, that misunderstood completely what he was talking about. He said "with us", not "with me". "Us" meant not only America, but all the civilized nations of the world, all who stand against terrorism and 7th century Islamists who chop the heads off of women in a soccer stadium or saw the head off of a journalist for their vlog. It was a speech of inclusion to all the democratic nations of the world, and a challenge to the dictatorships and oppressive regimes to choose a side and choose fast. Some choose to stand with the Democratic nations of the world, at least nominally, such as Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and others. Some, like the Taliban in Afghanistan and Saddam in Iraq, stood with the terrorists and applauded what they did.

Anyone who saw it as a personal "vote for Bush or you're with the terrorists" message was a fool who missed the entire point and context of the speech.

[Sabrinaset]

AKA people who cared about real issues that really mattered in this country

You don't get to determine what other people feel are the important issues.

So do you often think people are right on issues that they disagree with you with? ...When it comes to Bush in 2004 it was only unclear if you chose to keep your head in the sand, and for that you should be ashamed.

I'm sure I've been wrong quite a few times. I'm not denying that. But as far as your last sentence ...that's where you have it wrong. Did I acknowledge I made a mistake voting for him? Sure, and I did. Given a second chance, as I said, I would have voted for ... I dunno, maybe a write in vote for Daddy. Or not at all. Kerry sure as heck didn't deserve my vote. But ashamed? What are you, my Father-Confessor? BZZT! Epic fail. You don't get to determine what other people should feel.

I'll call you a cow fundamentalist.

I sure am. I believe Lloyd's BBQ sauce should be placed on every cow in the world.

[Gilda Dent]

I'm confused. Bree has said she made a mistake in 2004 and plans to vote for Obama in this election.

"I made a mistake, I learned from it, and I'm not going to repeat it" is a reason to repeatedly browbeat her?

[Sabrinaset]

I'm confused. Bree has said she made a mistake in 2004 and plans to vote for Obama in this election.

"I made a mistake, I learned from it, and I'm not going to repeat it" is a reason to repeatedly browbeat her?

It's apparently not enough for him. I'm supposed to put on sackcloth, pour ashes on my head, and feel shame forever. Heck, they only did that for forty days in Ninevah!

[Corrina]

Let it go, Bree. He's a sock puppet.

[Sabrinaset]

Let it go, Bree. He's a sock puppet.

I sorta suspected as much, actually.

[Corrina]

Yeah. Not worth your time or ire.

[Nyarlathotep]

I'm confused. Bree has said she made a mistake in 2004 and plans to vote for Obama in this election.

"I made a mistake, I learned from it, and I'm not going to repeat it" is a reason to repeatedly browbeat her?

For anyone who'd bother to actually read the thread, they'd notice this conversation started when people were attempting to blame Kerry for and Democratic strategy for the "mistake" they and others made in 2004. I was merely pointing out that this is absolute bullshit and if people can't see that they haven't learned anything.

I'm not hearing any of this from people who voted for Bush in 2004:

What have I always said, Mr. McEnery? If the Democrats really wanted to win ... they shouldn't have nominated Lurch. Dean would have put up a far superior fight if he hadn't self-destructed.

For the Democrats to have sent Kerry out and not been prepared to respond to attacks by irate veterans and the families of veterans shows arrogance and ignorance.

In other words if they've actually learned something they should act like it for more than 5 minutes at a time before falling back into blame the dems mode, at least in mixed company. Because 4 years ago when they were probably saying some of the exact same things they made a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad mistake. It might be wise for them to just avoid those thought patterns all together over the next few months, before they start getting turned on by McCain's sexy war record and magnetic love of embryos. Just to be on the safe side.

[Charles RB]

It wasn't "most people around the world", as you call them

Yes it was.

I know this because I'm from outside of America, and you know what? The common reaction here was "that's STUPID, you're trying to say we're an enemy if we don't blindly go along with your actions, fuck OFF" and we're a close ally.

Then I went online and y'know what? Other people from other countries including America generally considered that to be a stupid statement.

You're wrong here.

[Sabrinaset]

Almost did it, but Corrina is right. Not worth it.

[Corrina]

Oh, Leslie Lee.

I don't care if the thread's unmoderated. I hate sock puppets. Go away.

[Nyarlathotep]

I know I really should follow Corrina's advice, but this was just too good. So I'll close with this, then let him self-destruct.

Since I was the person who made that quote here (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=7342833&postcount=4128), I guess you DID hear any of this from someone who voted for Bush in 2004. I guess you also missed the part about how Dean would have done much better too. BZZT! Epic fail.

Yes. I know you made the quote. That's why I posted it. You see, the phrase, "I'm not hearing any..." is a colloquialism for, "I will vehemently disagree with..."

While I'm not sure as to your exact level of fail here, I think it would be a bit vulgar to throw that back in your face.

[Sabrinaset]

Yes. I know you made the quote. You see, the phrase, "I'm not hearing any..." is a colloquialism for, "I will vehemently disagree with..."


Of COURSE it is. My mistake was in assuming "I'm not hearing this from people who voted for Bush in 2004" actually meant "I'm not hearing this from people who voted for Bush in 2004." Gotcha, Leslie.

It might be an easier lesson to take if it weren't coming from a sock puppet who lied about who he is to get on CBR, Leslie. No WONDER you were so quick to change the subject from Edwards!

Oh, and Corrina ... he was on the "Question for (some) comic book fans (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=233257)" thread, and that's unmodded, so if there's a rule about sock-puppets being on UN-modded threads ...

[Nyarlathotep]

Of COURSE it is. My mistake was in assuming "I'm not hearing this from people who voted for Bush in 2004" actually meant "I'm not hearing this from people who voted for Bush in 2004."

Considering it was followed by two quotes from people in this thread did you, maybe, think for a second there was something you were missing?

It might be an easier lesson to take if it weren't coming from a sock puppet who lied about who he is to get on CBR, Leslie. No WONDER you were so quick to change the subject from Edwards!

Oh, and Corrina ... he was on the "Question for (some) comic book fans (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=233257)" thread, and that's unmodded, so if there's a rule about sock-puppets being on UN-modded threads ...

Lied? I had not posted in a year or so and I no longer have my password or email address. My first post back I mentioned I had posted here earlier. If I'm trying to sock puppet I'm doing it wrong since my current email address is the same as my old screen name, and there's about a year difference between any posts I'd create the illusion of support for.

[Nick Soapdish]

For anyone who'd bother to actually read the thread, they'd notice this conversation started when people were attempting to blame Kerry for and Democratic strategy for the "mistake" they and others made in 2004. I was merely pointing out that this is absolute bullshit and if people can't see that they haven't learned anything.

I'm not hearing any of this from people who voted for Bush in 2004:


People make mistakes.

The way that Kerry ran his campaign and how the Democrats handled it in general helped them.

[Sabrinaset]

Lied? I had not posted in a year or so and I no longer have my password or email address. My first post back I mentioned I had posted here earlier. If I'm trying to sock puppet I'm doing it wrong since my current email address is the same as my old screen name.

Lame.

You're a sock puppet. You can't even tell the truth about who you are until you're backed to the wall. Sound familiar?

You have no credibility here. You can go ahead and post all you want, but I don't think anyone is gunna be listening.

I'm done with you, Leslie. Whoever you are, you're not worth arguing with. Peace out.

[Nyarlathotep]

You're a sock puppet. You can't even tell the truth about who you are until you're backed to the wall. Sound familiar?

Who I am? There's exactly one person here who has interacted with me past text on this message board, so what does my screen name of the moment have to do with what I posted? Nothing of course. It's just, another, easy excuse to avoid reality. First it was blaming the democrats, then calling me a fundy (of what?), now it's being a sock puppet (for what?). Yes, I stopped posting for a year then had my university close my email account so I could trick someone who I vaguely recall having a different animated gif avatar into disagreeing with me.

You know, this is part of how I ending up letting my account lapse. Every post was not about what someone said, it was about who said what and who was on whose side and who disagreed with who last month and wanted e-revenge. Even this thread derailed for a long period of time into discussing Samurai and Section 8 as people instead of their ideas. I even got PMs of people trying to get me on the right side of these personal arguments citing evidence from past skirmishes that had nothing to do with the current topic being discussed and whether or not Section 8's post was correct or not. There is something really, really majorly wrong with that and if you needed to "who I am" so you could go through your notebook and decide if I was friend or foe and respond to that instead of my posts, it's probably time for you to take a break.

[Sabrinaset]

Who I am? There's exactly one person on the board who has interacted with me past text on this message board, so what does my screen name of the moment have to do with what I posted? Nothing of course. It's just, another, easy excuse to avoid reality. First it was blaming the democrats, then calling me a fundy (of what?), now it's being a sock puppet (for what?). Yes, I stopped posting for a year the had my university close my email account so I could disagree with someone who I vaguely recall having a different animated gif avatar.

Whatever, Leslie Lee III. Whatever.

[Samurai]

Who I am? There's exactly one person here who has interacted with me past text on this message board, so what does my screen name of the moment have to do with what I posted? Nothing of course. It's just, another, easy excuse to avoid reality. First it was blaming the democrats, then calling me a fundy (of what?), now it's being a sock puppet (for what?). Yes, I stopped posting for a year then had my university close my email account so I could trick someone who I vaguely recall having a different animated gif avatar into disagreeing with me.

You know, this is part of how I ending up letting my account lapse. Every post was not about what someone said, it was about who said what and who was on whose side and who disagreed with who last month and wanted e-revenge. Even this thread derailed for a long period of time into discussing Samurai and Section 8 as people instead of their ideas. I even got PMs of people trying to get me on the right side of these personal arguments citing evidence from past skirmishes that had nothing to do with the current topic being discussed and whether or not Section 8's post was correct or not. There is something really, really majorly wrong with that and if you needed to "who I am" so you could go through your notebook and decide if I was friend or foe and respond to that instead of my posts, it's probably time for you to take a break.

Just for curiosities sake, would you mind telling me if anyone PMed you about me, or was it only Section 8? If so, who?

[Nyarlathotep]

Just for curiosities sake, would you mind telling me if anyone PMed you about me, or was it only Section 8? If so, who?

I'd rather not go into the details, but I guarantee there are no revelations. It's the same things people post in public all to readily. I only bring it up to point out that if this is how people are behaving because they "know" who everyone is, then everyone needs to take a year off and re-register with a "sock puppet" account. Then, maybe, robust discussion will be had without people relying on the attack of least resistance i.e. responding to who posted instead of what they posted.

While I made no attempt to hide the other block of letters I used to post under, I was more comfortable posting knowing that I wouldn't have to worry about some internet fatwa from the 2006 fantasy football thread being carried out in an unrelated topic. I'm sure a poster of your notoriety knows all about it.

[Corrina]

Leslie, *I* had limited interaction with you and I could tell you came into this thread with an agenda and a past grudge, not as some new guy with some knowledge to share. Your posts screamed it.

Amazingly, I figured this out without PMs from anyone.

And now you've just admitted you came back under a new account to hide who you were in the old account, not just lost your password.

[Spike-X]

And I will cherish every moment of it.
I might even take the pointy-headed little git off ignore for a week or two.

[Nyarlathotep]

Leslie, *I* had limited interaction with you and I could tell you came into this thread with an agenda and a past grudge,

Really? With friggin who? I mean to me this just shows how clueless people still are about the Bush administration and it's blatant lies and crimes. That someone who takes issue with the, "Well, Kerry sucked too," excuse has have some long standing grudge with posters and tricked them into responding (with a post that didn't even quote them). How distorted is your worldview that you think torture, illegal wars, war crimes, billions wasted, lives wasted, all of that isn't enough to justify my posts. No, it has to be about some imaginary grudge on an internet message board that you're making up.

This is why, "OMG I'M VOTING FOR OBAMA GET OFF MY CASE!" doesn't move me to tears. Because people have learned nothing and after another 4 (or maybe even 3 months) the neocons will scare people right back where they want them.

And now you've just admitted you came back under a new account to hide who you were in the old account, not just lost your password.

I did not say that, you need to read my post again, carefully, as if you actually want to understand it instead of using it as an attempt to justify your failing accusation. I said I found, after the fact, that it's more comfortable posting without having to worry about e-grudges, but that wasn't the reason for a new account. I have about 3 gmail addresses, 4 domains, and my own web server. If I wanted to hide my ID I could have picked something other than [oldscreenname]@gmail.com.

[Corrina]

You make me ashamed to have even close to the same political viewpoint.

btw, did you both to read the YABS rules & regulations? Particularly, oh, say #1?

[Nyarlathotep]

You make me ashamed to have even close to the same political viewpoint.

And what is your political viewpoint? Have you decided who you are voting on? What do you think about all this talk of oil? How about the Olympics, what do you make of President Bush's unprecedented visit? I found a few articles by Naomi Klein (The Shock Doctrine) very interesting:


The Olympics: Unveiling Police State 2.0 by Naomi Klein (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-klein/the-olympics-unveiling-po_b_117403.html)

Chinese corporations financed by U.S. hedge funds, as well as some of American's most powerful corporations -- Cisco, General Electric, Honeywell, Google -- have been working hand in glove with the Chinese government to make this moment possible: networking the closed circuit cameras that peer from every other lamp pole, building the "Great Firewall" that allows for remote internet monitoring, and designing those self-censoring search engines.

Edit, per your edit:

btw, did you both to read the YABS rules & regulations? Particularly, oh, say #1?

A sock puppet account is an account you use in addition to your regular account to create fake agreement or something of the sort (look it up, it's on the internet). I have no access to my previous account, nor am I posting in threads I posted in a year ago. I posted in new threads and your accusations that I'm living out some grudge have no basis whatsoever. But if someone wants to delete this account and ban another account that hasn't posted in a year, for 3 days, knock yourself out. I did stop posting for a year (and previous to that I took a number of months off).

[Sabrinaset]

You make me ashamed to have even close to the same political viewpoint.

btw, did you both to read the YABS rules & regulations? Particularly, oh, say #1?

5a is apprropriate too.

Have you mentioned how mods can see posts before and after modifications yet, Corrina? :biggrin:

[Corrina]

He probably hasn't bothered to look as see me listed with the YABS mods.

Though, in all fairness, this is an unmodded thread. That does not excuse the sock-puppetry, though.

[Nyarlathotep]

He probably hasn't bothered to look as see me listed with the YABS mods.

Though, in all fairness, this is an unmodded thread. That does not excuse the sock-puppetry, though.

Well I'm sure if someone, outside of Bush, can come forward and point out that I had a previous grudge with them and used this account to live it out they could say so. Any day now. Or you could try to send an email to the address on my old account and see if you get a bounceback. Any way now.

[Corrina]

If you'd bothered to read that thread that you barged into, you'd know my politics.

Ass.

[Erik Burnham]

If you'd bothered to read that thread that you barged into, you'd know my politics.

Ass.

Reading this actually made me snort diet Pepsi. Tone came through loud and clear. (;

[FalconX2000]

To be fair, I don't think that Bush has really done anything differently in his last term than he did in the first. It's just that the flaws are more obvious because he's had longer to do them.

Actually, if we isolated Bush's last 2 years and concentrated on foreign policy, I'd say he was average as a president.

That doesn't change that, overall,

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/1558/bushym2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

but I don't think it's fair to say his second term has been no different from his first.

Sabrina, put Nyarla on your ignore list. He's not a threat, just an irritant.

[Michael P]

Actually, if we isolated Bush's last 2 years and concentrated on foreign policy, I'd say he was average as a president.

That doesn't change that, overall,

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/1558/bushym2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

but I don't think it's fair to say his second term has been no different from his first.

Yeah, his second term's been worse.

[Nyarlathotep]

If you'd bothered to read that thread that you barged into, you'd know my politics.

I'm sorry, I guess I mistook this for a public thread. Anyway, I only asked you that in naive hope we could get back to talking about politics and let the latest personal grudge derailment come to an end. I don't care about anyone's views enough to read through 100 pages, a significant portion of which seems to be this very type of pointless, stupid, completely unrelated to the topic personal grudge derailment. Forget I asked.

And you managed to bring this grudge into another thread for no reason. Just like the good old days. Feels like home.

[FalconX2000]

Yeah, his second term's been worse.

What did he do that you feel makes his second term worse?

[FalconX2000]

I'm sorry, I guess I mistook this for a public thread. Anyway, I only asked you that in naive hope we could get back to talking about politics and let the latest personal grudge derailment come to an end. I don't care about anyone's views enough to read through 100 pages, a significant portion of which seems to be this very type of pointless, stupid, completely unrelated to the topic personal grudge derailment. Forget I asked.

And you managed to bring this grudge into another thread for no reason. Just like the good old days. Feels like home.

If I remember correctly, you initiated hostilities by accusing Sabrina of betraying her country by voting for Bush.

[KevinTBrown]

Fixed it for you... because anyone who uses their brain to choose a candidate you don't like certainly won't be applauded...

Not if they're actually chosen for a reason other than the fact that their party happens to be "their party".

I can respect someone like Bree who admits they made a mistake will do all they can to rectify it this year. NO MATTER WHO THEY'RE VOTING FOR.

You, on the other hand, are just voting for McCain because he's the next Republican in line. It could be Joe Schmoe from Idaho running on the Democratic ticket and you'd still pull the same shit. I don't think you've ever actually thought about who you're going to vote for... all you've done is blindly walked into the booth and picked straight ticket Republican and walked out.

I've never voted a straight ticket in my entire life. I actually pay attention to who says what, how they present themselves, and if what they're saying is something I can get behind. THAT'S who gets MY vote. Regardless of whatever party they're affiliated with. Period.

[Nyarlathotep]

If I remember correctly, you initiated hostilities by accusing Sabrina of betraying her country by voting for Bush.

You remember incorrectly this is what I said:

I live in a place filled with people who betrayed this country and voted for Bush in 2004.

And that was in response to her quote mining something I said in another thread. I'd also not you said you agreed with my use of betrayal there after I explained it to you. But that was all part of an actual discussion. Corrina, if I recall correctly, began and perpetuated the non-discussion well after it should have ended. Sabrina used it, because it was convenient and didn't come clean and say me and her never had any grudge, but she didn't take overt action in derailment. At least not this one. There's been others, there'll be more after. I think it's funny that this derailment started because I wasn't operating under a screen name with e-baggage that could be easily thrown in my face. Does no one else find that kind of the wrong way to think about internet message boards? I mean, someone literally PM'd me to explain why something someone said months ago made them a leper and justified reactions to things made in this thread recently. Really? This is how things are done?

[section 8]

*walks in, takes a good look, backs out slowly*

[Nick Soapdish]

What did he do that you feel makes his second term worse?

I think it's more that all the incompetence and stupid mistakes of his first term came home to roost more obviously in the second - such as making appointments based solely on political opinions and not competence even if those political opinions had nothing to do with the job duties. Also, some of the abuses of the first term have come to light and he's had to defend them (while discontinuing their practice). If the problems of his second term weren't directly related to how he ran his first term, he'd probably come off as an only somewhat incompetent and immoral president. I still don't see how it excuses the defenses of "enhanced interrogation" and holding people for five years without charges and then asking for an extension when told that you finally have to charge them with something.

[Samurai]

You remember incorrectly this is what I said:



And that was in response to her quote mining something I said in another thread. I'd also not you said you agreed with my use of betrayal there after I explained it to you. But that was all part of an actual discussion. Corrina, if I recall correctly, began and perpetuated the non-discussion well after it should have ended. Sabrina used it, because it was convenient and didn't come clean and say me and her never had any grudge, but she didn't take overt action in derailment. At least not this one. There's been others, there'll be more after. I think it's funny that this derailment started because I wasn't operating under a screen name with e-baggage that could be easily thrown in my face. Does no one else find that kind of the wrong way to think about internet message boards? I mean, someone literally PM'd me to explain why something someone said months ago made them a leper and justified reactions to things made in this thread recently. Really? This is how things are done?

Yes. Yes that is how things are done. Behind the scenes character assassination. PMs assailing any new poster in order to get them up to speed on who is the local target of hatred and attack.

However, did I or any conservative PM you with a "Hey, Pip thinks this, isn't that lame?" or "Kevin believes X, Y, and Z, so don't trust a word he says" or anything of the sort? I know I didn't, and I rather highly doubt any other conservative did either.

[FalconX2000]

You remember incorrectly this is what I said:



And that was in response to her quote mining something I said in another thread. I'd also not you said you agreed with my use of betrayal there after I explained it to you. But that was all part of an actual discussion. Corrina, if I recall correctly, began and perpetuated the non-discussion well after it should have ended. Sabrina used it, because it was convenient and didn't come clean and say me and her never had any grudge, but she didn't take overt action in derailment. At least not this one. There's been others, there'll be more after. I think it's funny that this derailment started because I wasn't operating under a screen name with e-baggage that could be easily thrown in my face. Does no one else find that kind of the wrong way to think about internet message boards? I mean, someone literally PM'd me to explain why something someone said months ago made them a leper and justified reactions to things made in this thread recently. Really? This is how things are done?

Ah yes, my apologies.

I still find you by far the worse slanderer, but that's a seperate issue.

I think it's more that all the incompetence and stupid mistakes of his first term came home to roost more obviously in the second - such as making appointments based solely on political opinions and not competence even if those political opinions had nothing to do with the job duties. Also, some of the abuses of the first term have come to light and he's had to defend them (while discontinuing their practice). If the problems of his second term weren't directly related to how he ran his first term, he'd probably come off as an only somewhat incompetent and immoral president. I still don't see how it excuses the defenses of "enhanced interrogation" and holding people for five years without charges and then asking for an extension when told that you finally have to charge them with something.

Now that I agree with. Bush in his first term still had the cushion Clinton's previous 8 years afforded the country.

Yes. Yes that is how things are done. Behind the scenes character assassination. PMs assailing any new poster in order to get them up to speed on who is the local target of hatred and attack.

However, did I or any conservative PM you with a "Hey, Pip thinks this, isn't that lame?" or "Kevin believes X, Y, and Z, so don't trust a word he says" or anything of the sort? I know I didn't, and I rather highly doubt any other conservative did either.

I recall you doing exactly that to me when I got into a fight with several of YABs members over gay semantics. I still have it in my inbox if you want me to post it, in fact.

[Samurai]

Ah yes, my apologies.

I still find you by far the worse slanderer, but that's a seperate issue.



Now that I agree with. Bush in his first term still had the cushion Clinton's previous 8 years afforded the country.



I recall you doing exactly that to me when I got into a fight with several of YABs members over gay semantics. I still have it in my inbox if you want me to post it, in fact.
If we're thinking of the same PM from about 3 months ago, I discussed the differences between group and individual identity with you, and how conservatives and liberals generally see them. I wasn't attacking individual people. Are you thinking of a different PM?

[the4thpip]

Yes. Yes that is how things are done. Behind the scenes character assassination. PMs assailing any new poster in order to get them up to speed on who is the local target of hatred and attack.

However, did I or any conservative PM you with a "Hey, Pip thinks this, isn't that lame?" or "Kevin believes X, Y, and Z, so don't trust a word he says" or anything of the sort? I know I didn't, and I rather highly doubt any other conservative did either.

That is silly. Nothing I think is "lame." Even conservatives have to admit that I am the epitome of cool. :cool:

[FalconX2000]

If we're thinking of the same PM from about 3 months ago, I discussed the differences between group and individual identity with you, and how conservatives and liberals generally see them. I wasn't attacking individual people. Are you thinking of a different PM?

No you didn't attack individual people because you didn't need to. Your earlier point was "Behind the scenes character assassination. PMs assailing any new poster in order to get them up to speed on who is the local target of hatred and attack."

You gave me a PM talking about how all these liberals have no sense of personal responsiblity, engage in frequent irresponsible sexual activity and always blame it on their environment. That they just take all the problems in the world and say how everything else made people commit crimes, get paid less and that it is never the fault of the individual.You did this to try to convince me that all those people I'd just fought with were lousy and not worth listening to. Hell, you flat out stated that conservatives had a monopoly on personal responsibility.

Now, of course I don't hold the fact that you sent a PM to me against you. I don't see any moral problems with trying to convert someone to your views. Whether it's just after they've been battered by those whose beliefs run differently from yours is irrelevant. It's perfectly fine.

However, to portray yourself and all conservatives as a straightforward, honest to goodness guys while liberals are backstabbing character assasinating rats as you did here:

Yes. Yes that is how things are done. Behind the scenes character assassination. PMs assailing any new poster in order to get them up to speed on who is the local target of hatred and attack.

However, did I or any conservative PM you with a "Hey, Pip thinks this, isn't that lame?" or "Kevin believes X, Y, and Z, so don't trust a word he says" or anything of the sort? I know I didn't, and I rather highly doubt any other conservative did either.

is ridiculous and hypocritical.

[Spike-X]

Posting PMs is well out of order, Falcon.

[FalconX2000]

Posting PMs is well out of order, Falcon.

Fine, I will edit and paraphrase his PM. Not that it actually makes a difference.

Given what he was talking about, pointing out what about his PM makes his current claim invalid is most definately necessary.

[Corrina]

Posting PMs is not cool.

For the record, before we move on, the whole 'grudge' comment that has gotten blown immeasurably out of proportion was simply my observation that this new poster obviously had interaction with CBR before and obviously had a bug up his butt about past interaction. Not a grudge against a specific person. It is very easy to tell newbies who want to join in the discussion (helpfully or ineptly) from others who's been at CBR before. It's not rocket science, I'm sure that many others had the same thought.

On politics, I saw McCain's new commercial, about how Obama is opposing drilling off-shore and how it will cause the death of civilization, etc. Factcheck.org was not happy with those.

[FalconX2000]

Posting PMs is not cool.

For the record, before we move on, the whole 'grudge' comment that has gotten blown immeasurably out of proportion was simply my observation that this new poster obviously had interaction with CBR before and obviously had a bug up his butt about past interaction. Not a grudge against a specific person. It is very easy to tell newbies who want to join in the discussion (helpfully or ineptly) from others who's been at CBR before. It's not rocket science, I'm sure that many others had the same thought.

On politics, I saw McCain's new commercial, about how Obama is opposing drilling off-shore and how it will cause the death of civilization, etc. Factcheck.org was not happy with those.

Sam: Neither me nor any conservative ever wrote XXX behind people's backs.

Me: But you did. Here is the proof.


I understand the convention to keep private conversations private, but rigidly adhering to the rule no matter the circumstances is not something to be proud of imo. Are there any further requests for editing my post to Samurai?

In other news, Andrew Young believes electing Barack Obama would have such a positive effect on world opinion that the economy would receive a boost just from inaugurating him:
http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/businessinsider/entries/2008/08/10/andrew_young_says_obama_would.html

I...dunno. Is that a little much to expect?

[the4thpip]

In other news, Andrew Young believes electing Barack Obama would have such a positive effect on world opinion that the economy would receive a boost just from inaugurating him:
http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/businessinsider/entries/2008/08/10/andrew_young_says_obama_would.html

I...dunno. Is that a little much to expect?

He might be on to something.

I read an analysis on how for the first time ever, a slump in the value of the dollar did not cause a noticeable increase in tourism to the US, and Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld are to blame for that.

Vacationing in the US is dirt cheap for people who own their money in Euros, GBP, Swiss Franks etc. If people stop being disgusted at the US, they'll bring in a lot of money.

[Samurai]

Sam: Neither me nor any conservative ever wrote XXX behind people's backs.

Me: But you did. Here is the proof.


I understand the convention to keep private conversations private, but rigidly adhering to the rule no matter the circumstances is not something to be proud of imo. Are there any further requests for editing my post to Samurai?

In other news, Andrew Young believes electing Barack Obama would have such a positive effect on world opinion that the economy would receive a boost just from inaugurating him:
http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/businessinsider/entries/2008/08/10/andrew_young_says_obama_would.html

I...dunno. Is that a little much to expect?

3 things: First, I never have PMed Nyarly about anything, for any reason.

Second, I never said the conservatives don't PM other people, just that they don't tend to bombard a "new" poster with a bunch of reasons to hate other posters on the boards, which is what Nyaly said happened.

Third, my PM to you was continuing the discussion at the time, as I recall, about individual vs group identity and freedom, and how conservatives and liberals generally saw them, and which they felt was more important. It wasn't a "Yeah, this other poster on the board is a silly bollocks, because of this and that which he supposedly said months or years before you arrived at this forum!" That's behind-the-back character assassination, is probably filled with either out of context, paraphrased lines, or just plain lies, and there's nothing the other person can do to respond to it, unless he himself PMs new posters and asks them what, if anything, has been said about him.

[FalconX2000]

3 things: First, I never have PMed Nyarly about anything, for any reason.

Second, I never said the conservatives don't PM other people, just that they don't tend to bombard a "new" poster with a bunch of reasons to hate other posters on the boards, which is what Nyaly said happened.

Third, my PM to you was continuing the discussion at the time, as I recall, about individual vs group identity and freedom, and how conservatives and liberals generally saw them, and which they felt was more important. It wasn't a "Yeah, this other poster on the board is a silly bollocks, because of this and that which he supposedly said months or years before you arrived at this forum!" That's behind-the-back character assassination, is probably filled with either out of context, paraphrased lines, or just plain lies, and there's nothing the other person can do to respond to it, unless he himself PMs new posters and asks them what, if anything, has been said about him.


If that's your definition, fair enough.

I would point out that, by this view, I know no liberals on this board who do behind the scenes character assasination to newbies either.

[Samurai]

If that's your definition, fair enough.

I would point out that, by this view, I know no liberals on this board who do behind the scenes character assasination to newbies either.

I know it has been very prevalent on some other forums I visit, but I hadn't known about it here. That's why I asked Nyarly what was said. Purposely prejudicing new posters against other posters is not something that should go on, but apparently it is now. A PM between friends about "That poster sure has gone off the rocker today, hasn't he?" is fine and expected... we've all done that. Or continued a conversation by PM when it was not longer appropriate for a thread. But combined with comments about "how dangerous I am if left unchecked" that have been said publicly, and now an allegation that people are bombarding a new poster with hate PMs about other posters, I'm not liking what I'm seeing.

[Corrina]

On PMs and backdoor chats:

I'm thinking that most people feel comfortable posting their character assassinations here in the thread.

Could be wrong, I guess, but this thread isn't exactly a place to kick back & relax. :)

[FalconX2000]

I know it has been very prevalent on some other forums I visit, but I hadn't known about it here. That's why I asked Nyarly what was said. Purposely prejudicing new posters against other posters is not something that should go on, but apparently it is now. A PM between friends about "That poster sure has gone off the rocker today, hasn't he?" is fine and expected... we've all done that. Or continued a conversation by PM when it was not longer appropriate for a thread. But combined with comments about "how dangerous I am if left unchecked" that have been said publicly, and now an allegation that people are bombarding a new poster with hate PMs about other posters, I'm not liking what I'm seeing.

And I still believe you're dangerous if left unchecked. After rereading what you wrote, I admit my bias clouded my judgement on this issue.



In further news:

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN0947003820080810?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0

Apparently, 'legal analysts' are saying that Hamdan (Osama bin Laden's driver) was delibrately given a short sentence to give the next president the oppurtunity to release the driver should he so choose instead of keeping him in detention indefinately.

I'm a little uncomfortable with this idea. Whether I agree with the actual sentence is irrelevant. Sentencing isn't supposed be politically motivated. The judiciary branch's job is to give a guy his due as accorded by the law.

[section 8]

Posting PMs is not cool.

For the record, before we move on, the whole 'grudge' comment that has gotten blown immeasurably out of proportion was simply my observation that this new poster obviously had interaction with CBR before and obviously had a bug up his butt about past interaction. Not a grudge against a specific person. It is very easy to tell newbies who want to join in the discussion (helpfully or ineptly) from others who's been at CBR before. It's not rocket science, I'm sure that many others had the same thought.

On politics, I saw McCain's new commercial, about how Obama is opposing drilling off-shore and how it will cause the death of civilization, etc. Factcheck.org was not happy with those.

i wanted to say this before, but decided to de-ass the line of fire, but i think it needs saying.

life is too short to hold a grudge people, and grudges are too much effort (especially too much effort to invest in an online forum)

or maybe i'm just lazy, either way i don't get it.

*runs*

[Sabrinaset]

And now for some more headlines ...

Seats for Obama's speech snapped up in a day! (http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_10132731) It's like SDCC!

Colorado's tickets to see Barack Obama's acceptance speech at Invesco Field at Mile High were more than spoken for within about 24 hours, officials said, and the application process closed Thursday for all but those willing to be put on a waiting list.

Obama's campaign set aside for Colorado half of the more than 60,000 seats available to the public for the final night of the Democratic National Convention. It turns out the battleground state could have filled the stadium, as the campaign ended applications after collecting more than 60,000 Thursday afternoon.

Hip-hop could "big up" or burden Obama. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080809/en_nm/usa_politics_hiphop_dc)

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Presidential hopeful Barack Obama listens to hip-hop, knows many of the genre's moguls, such as Jay-Z, Russell Simmons and rapper Ludacris, admires their business acumen and has been endorsed by them.

ADVERTISEMENT

That support could be a blessing for the 47-year-old Democratic candidate as he appeals to young voters.

Or it could be a curse, with links to hip-hop's "gangsta" image and offering ammunition for the supporters of Republican rival U.S. Sen. John McCain.

"Hip-hop's public image makes it a hot potato," said Bakari Kitwana, of the Study of Race, Politics and Culture at the University of Chicago. "People don't know what it is so they equate it with hyper-sexuality, violence and drug culture."

Gee, the way women are portrayed in many rap videos, can't imagine why.

True story. At one point, WCW, a wrestling company that used to be huge but went defunct a few years ago, thought they could increase their ratings by bringing in Master P and The No Limit Soldiers. The rappers were so hated by wrestling fans that the fans turned on them and were cheering the West Texas Rednecks, who were a heel team Master P was feuding with that the fans were supposed to hate! WCW folded as a company, at least in part, because they really had no idea who their audience was. Something for Obama to consider.

Obama begins (well, began) his weeklong vacation. (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080809/D92EFIBO0.html)

Where might McCains campaign staff get their ideas? From Hillary's campaign, of course! (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12420.html)

Mark Penn, the top campaign strategist for Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaign, advised her to portray Barack Obama as having a “limited” connection “to basic American values and culture,” according to a forthcoming article in The Atlantic.

The magazine reports Penn suggested getting much rougher with Obama in a memo on March 30, after her crucial wins in Texas and Ohio: “Does anyone believe that it is possible to win the nomination without, over these next two months, raising all these issues on him? ... Won’t a single tape of [the Reverend Jeremiah] Wright going off on America with Obama sitting there be a game ender?”

Atlantic Senior Editor Joshua Green writes that major decisions during her campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination would be put off for weeks until suddenly Clinton “would erupt, driving her staff to panic and misfire.”

The Penn memo suggesting that the campaign target Obama’s “lack of American roots” said in part: “All of these articles about his boyhood in Indonesia and his life in Hawaii are geared towards showing his background is diverse, multicultural and putting that in a new light.

"Every speech should contain the line you were born in the middle of America American to the middle class in the middle of the last century...“Let’s explicitly own ‘American’ in our programs, the speeches and the values. He doesn’t. Make this a new American Century, the American Strategic Energy Fund. Let’s use our logo to make some flags we can give out. Let’s add flag symbols to the backgrounds.”

Could someone tell me exactly WHY Obama wants the Clintons to campaign for him? :confused:

And now, for the lighter side of the news ... (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080809/D92EQ1S02.html)

[Paul McEnery]

True story. At one point, WCW, a wrestling company that used to be huge but went defunct a few years ago, thought they could increase their ratings by bringing in Master P and The No Limit Soldiers. The rappers were so hated by wrestling fans that the fans turned on them and were cheering the West Texas Rednecks

One might, with pain, draw a different lesson from this.

[Sabrinaset]

One might, with pain, draw a different lesson from this.

Well, it is possible to sell rap to wrestling fans ... in fact, that's how John Cena started out, by freestyling as he walked down the ramp to the ring. And the WWE has produced a rap CD or two which sold pretty well (I think). But the way WCW went about it was absolutely clueless. In fact, a few years before that, WCW's first rapping wrestler was a guy named PN News. He's awful. I mean, this guy could make Countdown look good.

[Grazzt]

Well, it is possible to sell rap to wrestling fans ... in fact, that's how John Cena started out, by freestyling as he walked down the ramp to the ring. And the WWE has produced a rap CD or two which sold pretty well (I think). But the way WCW went about it was absolutely clueless. In fact, a few years before that, WCW's first rapping wrestler was a guy named PN News. He's awful. I mean, this guy could make Countdown look good.

Remember Men on a Mission? The rapping angle was so awful they exchanged it for being a king and his knight.

[Paul McEnery]

Well, it is possible to sell rap to wrestling fans ... in fact, that's how John Cena started out, by freestyling as he walked down the ramp to the ring. And the WWE has produced a rap CD or two which sold pretty well (I think). But the way WCW went about it was absolutely clueless. In fact, a few years before that, WCW's first rapping wrestler was a guy named PN News. He's awful. I mean, this guy could make Countdown look good.

Is he by any chance non-black?

[Spike-X]

Is he by any chance non-black?
Oh my God. It's like your psychic or something.

[Sabrinaset]

Is he by any chance non-black?

Both PN News and Cena are non-black. Oh ... the WWE also currently has Cryme Tyme, who aren't a rapping tag team per se, but more ... how do I put this? A rip-off of the Home Boy Shopping Network sketches from In Living Color? But they're pretty popular right now, and are probably going to get the tag team belts soon.

[Sabrinaset]

Remember Men on a Mission? The rapping angle was so awful they exchanged it for being a king and his knight.

Oh, geez. M.O.M. I think I was nine or ten the first time I saw them and choked on my cereal. They were THAT BAD.

[GozertheGozarian]

They all with they were rhymemasters like The Genius, Lanny Poffo.

[Paul McEnery]

Oh my God. It's like your psychic or something.

It's true. I can has mindreading.

I looked him up, btw, and the pictures are great! 400 pounds of straight white guy poured into big gay rainbow spandex and the blackest poses (and facial hair) he can manage. Plus bling.

For some reason, I'm reminded of Sacha Cohen's amusing stunt at the wrestling match.

[section 8]

white rappers and wrestling ? i am sooo out of here

(this thread is de-railed)

[Sabrinaset]

My derailment powers are now at Biblical levels. I don't even have to try anymore.

Anyways, here's a few more stories ...

Lieberman is on McCain's short list for Veep. (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4af34942-65a1-11dd-a352-0000779fd18c,dwp_uuid=729ab242-9cb1-11db-8ec6-0000779e2340.html)

The forgotten candidates in the White House race (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080810071703.e51k97fe&show_article=1&catnum=3)... remember these guys?

The 2008 Democrat Platform gets built. (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121830468013527261.html?mod=googlenews_wsj)

The man behind the Bat-nipples supports Obama. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/celebritynews/2533941/Barack-Obama-gets-advice-from-new-friend-George-Clooney.html) Geez ... probably the best news McCain could get.

[Paul McEnery]

My derailment powers are now at Biblical levels. I don't even have to try anymore.

Anyways, here's a few more stories ...

Lieberman is on McCain's short list for Veep. (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4af34942-65a1-11dd-a352-0000779fd18c,dwp_uuid=729ab242-9cb1-11db-8ec6-0000779e2340.html)

The forgotten candidates in the White House race (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080810071703.e51k97fe&show_article=1&catnum=3)... remember these guys?

The 2008 Democrat Platform gets built. (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121830468013527261.html?mod=googlenews_wsj)

The man behind the Bat-nipples supports Obama. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/celebritynews/2533941/Barack-Obama-gets-advice-from-new-friend-George-Clooney.html) Geez ... probably the best news McCain could get.

I'd have thought the man behind Flatliners would be for McCain.

[Typo Lad]

My derailment powers are now at Biblical levels. I don't even have to try anymore.

Anyways, here's a few more stories ...

Lieberman is on McCain's short list for Veep. (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4af34942-65a1-11dd-a352-0000779fd18c,dwp_uuid=729ab242-9cb1-11db-8ec6-0000779e2340.html)

Non-story. He has been since day 1.

[Royal]

Gee, the way women are portrayed in many rap videos, can't imagine why.



You know...there are other rappers that are known without BET shilling them hard.

[Royal]

It's true. I can has mindreading.

I looked him up, btw, and the pictures are great! 400 pounds of straight white guy poured into big gay rainbow spandex and the blackest poses (and facial hair) he can manage. Plus bling.

For some reason, I'm reminded of Sacha Cohen's amusing stunt at the wrestling match.

MMA card. Sasha rigged a whole MMA card.

YO BABY YO BABY YO!!!

[Sabrinaset]

You know...there are other rappers that are known without BET shilling them hard.

Another thread ruined by Hudlin!