2008 U.S. Presidential Election Mega thread

[Typo Lad]

The freakish thing is that they're tarring Obama for...

Working with a Republican.

Hmm.

What is Hagel's record on Israel, btw?
No idea. I didn't know he'd even spoken up.

[Buzz Dixon]

More on torture in Gitmo:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/11128331/follow_omar_khadr_from_an_al_qaeda_childhood_to_a_ gitmo_cell

Any Admionistration apologist who says what happened to this kid isn't torture is either delusional or lying.

[Buzz Dixon]

In the sense of fairness, here's what the McCain camp had to say on his adoption stance:

"McCain could have been clearer in the interview in stating that his position on gay adoption is that it is a state issue, just as he made it clear in the interview that marriage is a state issue. He was not endorsing any federal legislation.

McCain’s expressed his personal preference for children to be raised by a mother and a father wherever possible. However, as an adoptive father himself, McCain believes children deserve loving and caring home environments, and he recognizes that there are many abandoned children who have yet to find homes. McCain believes that in those situations that caring parental figures are better for the child than the alternative," - Jill Hazelbaker, Director of Communications

[Buzz Dixon]

To me, the most puzzling thing about the NEW YORKER Obama cover is what's Sigourney Weaver doing in blackface?

[Spike-X]

In the sense of fairness, here's what the McCain camp had to say on his adoption stance:

"McCain could have been clearer in the interview in stating that his position on gay adoption is that it is a state issue, just as he made it clear in the interview that marriage is a state issue. He was not endorsing any federal legislation.

McCain’s expressed his personal preference for children to be raised by a mother and a father wherever possible. However, as an adoptive father himself, McCain believes children deserve loving and caring home environments, and he recognizes that there are many abandoned children who have yet to find homes. McCain believes that in those situations that caring parental figures are better for the child than the alternative," - Jill Hazelbaker, Director of Communications
Maybe he should just get his Director Of Communications to do his interviews from now on and be bloody done with it?

[Gilda Dent]

Oh no you don't. It's clear from the context that by both he means a man and a woman.

I get that. I was deliberately quoting out of context so I could show that his conclusion based on what he actually said is faulty.

I refuse to allow the anti-gay crowd to have exclusive possession of phrases like "both parents" or "family values" or treat them as synonymous with "heterosexual couples and their mutual children" and like to point out that when you take a stance on issues in that way, there is no legitimate argument in favor of traditional families that cannot also be used to support non-traditional families such as gay couples who adopt or blended families.

No two people in my household have the same father and there is no father or other adult male role model in the home, yet we're about as functional as you'd ordinarily expect a family to be.

In the sense of fairness, here's what the McCain camp had to say on his adoption stance:

"McCain could have been clearer in the interview in stating that his position on gay adoption is that it is a state issue, just as he made it clear in the interview that marriage is a state issue. He was not endorsing any federal legislation.

McCain’s expressed his personal preference for children to be raised by a mother and a father wherever possible. However, as an adoptive father himself, McCain believes children deserve loving and caring home environments, and he recognizes that there are many abandoned children who have yet to find homes. McCain believes that in those situations that caring parental figures are better for the child than the alternative," - Jill Hazelbaker, Director of Communications

Interesting. By saying that he doesn't believe in gay adoption, he really meant that it's a state issue on which he has no position.

Regardless, that he is openly prejudiced against gays is enough of a strike against him in this instance without his supporting legislation. It would be worse if he did support legislation banning gay adoption, but that doesn't mean his stance as is is anywhere close to acceptable.

Also, given the chance to do so, event the spokesperson here avoids actually taking a position one way or the other and doesn't mention same-sex parents at all, changing the "clarification" from what was a pretty clear position to one considerably more muddled.

[FalconX2000]

You probably don't understand the way election ads work in America. There are 2 kinds of ads... unofficial ads by groups that support the candidate, but are not officially endorsed by him, and official campaign ads that must include the candidate, in his own voice, either speaking the ad himself or saying after the ad, for example, "I'm Barack Obama, and I approve this ad."

Typically, it's the unofficial ads that are the attack ads because it gives the candidate deniability... "Yes, the ad was in support of my candidacy, but I don't approve such language and tactics, blah, blah, blah." But this was an official campaign ad, approved by Obama. He has no deniability here. Whether or not a paid actor said the lines or he did, this ad was put together by Obama's official campaign, and personally approved by Obama. Obama doesn't "endorse an actor", he approves the message in the ad, so unlike the unofficial ads, he can't say "Oh, I don't agree with using such language and tactics, we should stick to the issues and run a clean campaign, etc." This was from him and his official campaign, get it?

I'm confident there is plenty of minutae I don't know about elections in America, but it seems pretty obvious to me that any ad that ends with "I am Barack Obama and I approve this message" came from his campaign, so you didn't need to explain it to me.

I said the "endorse the actor" part as a minor joke, as evidenced when I said "On a more serious note" right after that.

As I said earlier, one radio ad. He certainly holds responsibility for it, though I'm not certain he was even paying close attention to it when they ran it by him. I don't like that "McSame as Bush" was a phrase used in one of his campaign's ads, there are better ways of making the same point, but its not something I'm horrified at.

[FalconX2000]

You probably don't understand the way election ads work in America. There are 2 kinds of ads... unofficial ads by groups that support the candidate, but are not officially endorsed by him, and official campaign ads that must include the candidate, in his own voice, either speaking the ad himself or saying after the ad, for example, "I'm Barack Obama, and I approve this ad."

Typically, it's the unofficial ads that are the attack ads because it gives the candidate deniability... "Yes, the ad was in support of my candidacy, but I don't approve such language and tactics, blah, blah, blah." But this was an official campaign ad, approved by Obama. He has no deniability here. Whether or not a paid actor said the lines or he did, this ad was put together by Obama's official campaign, and personally approved by Obama. Obama doesn't "endorse an actor", he approves the message in the ad, so unlike the unofficial ads, he can't say "Oh, I don't agree with using such language and tactics, we should stick to the issues and run a clean campaign, etc." This was from him and his official campaign, get it?

I'm confident there is plenty of minutae I don't know about elections in America, but it seems pretty obvious to me that any ad that ends with "I am Barack Obama and I approve this message" came from his campaign, so you didn't need to explain it to me.

I said the "endorse the actor" part as a minor joke, as evidenced when I said "On a more serious note" right after that.

As I said earlier, one radio ad. He certainly holds responsibility for it, though I'm not certain he was even paying close attention to it when they ran it by him. I don't like that "McSame as Bush" was a phrase used in one of his campaign's ads, there are better ways of making the same point, but its not something I'm horrified at.

The original argument is that you said, or at the very least used phrasing that said that Obama had said "McSame as Bush". That is not true. One radio ad of his said it, an ad that was really very issue laden.

[Buzz Dixon]

The lads at JibJab strike again:

http://sendables.jibjab.com/sendables/1191/time_for_some_campaignin

[Paul McEnery]

I refuse to allow the anti-gay crowd to have exclusive possession of phrases like "both parents" or "family values" or treat them as synonymous with "heterosexual couples and their mutual children" and like to point out that when you take a stance on issues in that way, there is no legitimate argument in favor of traditional families that cannot also be used to support non-traditional families such as gay couples who adopt or blended families.

Quite right!

[Paul McEnery]

No idea. I didn't know he'd even spoken up.

I've found what the crazy right wing has its panties in a bunch about:


In August 2006, Hagel was one of only 12 senators who refused to write the EU asking them to declare Hezbollah a terrorist organization.
In December 2005, Hagel was one of only 27 who refused to sign a letter to President Bush to pressure the Palestinian Authority to ban terrorist groups from participating in Palestinian legislative elections.
In June 2004, Hagel refused to sign a letter urging President Bush to highlight Iran's nuclear program at the G-8 summit.
In November 2001, Hagel was one of only 11 senators who refused to sign a letter urging President Bush not to meet with the late Yassir Arafat until his forces ended the violence against Israel.
In October 2000, Hagel was one of only four senators who refused to sign a Senate letter in support of Israel
.

And to counter this nonsense, here's a long transcript of a Council for Foreign Relations interview with Chuck Hagel that is far too long (and long-winded) to excerpt:

http://www.cfr.org/publication/14895/conversation_with_chuck_hagel_rush_transcript_fede ral_news_service.html

[FalconX2000]

A little example here of chaos theory in action.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/257423

One guy on the ground mistranslates Maliki's statement, replacing "prescence" with "withdrawal". The statement is publicised and all the news networks go:

Iraq Leader Wants U.S. Withdrawal

All the other news networks and blogs get the information and it spreads like wildfire. Only days later, when the information has spread too far to correct it, do we find out it all originated from a mistranslation.

[Adam C]

A little example here of chaos theory in action.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/257423

One guy on the ground mistranslates Maliki's statement, replacing "prescence" with "withdrawal". His boss, BBC, gets the news and out comes the poltical headline:

Iraq Leader Wants U.S. Withdrawal

"His boss, BBC?" The mistranslation originated in Maliki's own office according to your link.

[FalconX2000]

"His boss, BBC?" The mistranslation originated in Maliki's own office according to your link.

Sorry, I read (or perhaps misread) it as BBC in a seperate article, closed the window, then decided it was worth posting and tried to find another article on the same issue.

[the4thpip]

A little example here of chaos theory in action.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/257423

One guy on the ground mistranslates Maliki's statement, replacing "prescence" with "withdrawal". The statement is publicised and all the news networks go:

Iraq Leader Wants U.S. Withdrawal

All the other news networks and blogs get the information and it spreads like wildfire. Only days later, when the information has spread too far to correct it, do we find out it all originated from a mistranslation.

Doesn't seem to be a mistranslation as much as policy makers "adapting" the written version to what they think should have been said. Something the Bush administration has done, too.

Interestingly enough, according to a wire story: "Iraq's national security adviser said Tuesday his country will not accept any security deal with the United States unless it contains specific dates for the withdrawal of U.S.-led forces." This "clarifying" statement was apparently made in response to suggestions from the White House that the "timetable" language in yesterday's news reports from Iraq represented some sort of translation error. "Specific dates for withdrawal" is certainly more emphatic than "timetable."



http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2008/07/08/just_politics/index.html

[FalconX2000]

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/07/hearing-gate-ex.html

John McCain has not attended a single hearing on Afghanistan in the past 2 years.

*points finger*

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


I normally wouldn't make a huge deal out of this, but since John McCain and so many on the right have seen fit to criticise Barack Obama for not going to Iraq in 2 years want to make such a big deal about neglected duties during presidential campaigns...:biggrin:

[KevinTBrown]

I love the response though. It comes across as: "Yeah, don't worry about McCain not going, so what about Obama not going?!?" :toungue:

[FalconX2000]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/18/enthusiasm/

Excerpt:
The Pew Research Center even found that 39 per cent of McCain's supporters consider Obama the more likeable candidate, compared to 34 per cent of McCain supporters who feel that way about their own candidate.



W

T

F

:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Samurai]

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/07/hearing-gate-ex.html

John McCain has not attended a single hearing on Afghanistan in the past 2 years.

*points finger*

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


I normally wouldn't make a huge deal out of this, but since John McCain and so many on the right have seen fit to criticise Barack Obama for not going to Iraq in 2 years want to make such a big deal about neglected duties during presidential campaigns...:biggrin:
So, McCain has actually gone to Afghanistan himself 4 times, talked to the people on the ground and seen things with his own eyes, while Obama has never gone to Afghanistan, and instead attended a whopping 1 meeting about it (vs. McCain's 0), at which time he only asked the General questions about Pakistan. (Where does Obama's hard on for attacking Pakistan come from?).

THAT is the record you are pointing at laughing at McCain for?

[Tommy]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/18/enthusiasm/

Excerpt:
The Pew Research Center even found that 39 per cent of McCain's supporters consider Obama the more likeable candidate, compared to 34 per cent of McCain supporters who feel that way about their own candidate.



W

T

F

:eek: :eek: :eek:

As long as you hate the right people you don't have to be liked to get their votes.

[Samurai]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/18/enthusiasm/

Excerpt:
The Pew Research Center even found that 39 per cent of McCain's supporters consider Obama the more likeable candidate, compared to 34 per cent of McCain supporters who feel that way about their own candidate.



W

T

F

:eek: :eek: :eek:

"Likability" =/= "Would make the best President"

[Calybos]

"Likability" =/= "Would make the best President"

That's certainly news to the many millions of "I'd have a beer with him" Bush voters.

[KevinTBrown]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20080718/us_time/frenemiesthemccainbushdance

"Frenemies"? Ugh.

[FalconX2000]

So, McCain has actually gone to Afghanistan himself 4 times, talked to the people on the ground and seen things with his own eyes, while Obama has never gone to Afghanistan, and instead attended a whopping 1 meeting about it (vs. McCain's 0), at which time he only asked the General questions about Pakistan. (Where does Obama's hard on for attacking Pakistan come from?).

THAT is the record you are pointing at laughing at McCain for?

Perhaps you didn't pay attention to my second paragraph. There is nothing for you to be offended at. McCain not having attended a single meeting on Afghanistan in the last 2 years is as relevant as Obama not having been to Iraq in the last 2 years. There's nothing to be made. I felt like pointing and laughing since McCain himself has been attacking Obama repeatedly the Iraq visit issue.

I do, however, find myself incredulous why you seem to think attacking Pakistan (namely the Al Qaeda bases within Pakistan that the local government is too lazy or incompetent to get rid off themselves) is a bad idea.

"Likability" =/= "Would make the best President"

I didn't use such an insinuation. You did. I do think you'd be hard pressed to find ANY other nominee in history who had more of his own supporters think he was less likable than his opponent. Hence the WTF in my previous post.

Certainly, Reagan was one of the most likable presidents ever. Yet I'd rank Lyndon B Johnson over him.

[Spike-X]

"Likability" =/= "Would make the best President"

The US certainly found that out the hard way in the last few years, didn't they?

[Tetsuo_man]

The US certainly found that out the hard way in the last few years, didn't they?

I'd say more like last decade then few years...

[Paul McEnery]

I'd say more like last decade then few years...

I think we could go back to the 80s on that one.

[Tetsuo_man]

Yeah i'd agree moreso paul. Clinton deffinitly could have been a republican (and no i'm not being sarcastic, sorry). Although i'd say al gore despite being a great conservationist is probabbly more conservative than clinton, i mean who the hell could support the Parents Music Resource Center. Jello biafra was right to call out tipper as a conservative.

[Samurai]

A new ad about Obama's shifting positions on Iraq.

http://www.johnmccain.com/videolanding/documentary.htm


What do you think?

[Samurai]

I do, however, find myself incredulous why you seem to think attacking Pakistan (namely the Al Qaeda bases within Pakistan that the local government is too lazy or incompetent to get rid off themselves) is a bad idea.


Just going to answer this bit pretty quickly: Pakistan is on the edge of a coup right now IMO. Bhutto was just assassinated, and Musharraf has to tread carefully and watch his back or he'll be next. If that happens, the country will either descend into chaos, and/or eventually get another leader who will likely be much closer to the Taliban and Al Queda than to America. I have no delusions that Musharraf is a great leader and true friend to the US... he isn't. But IMO, looking at the situation over there, he is substantially better than his likely replacement.

The US is thus presently better off working with Musharraf than running hog wild over the country looking for terrorists. Afghanistan, by contrast, had horrible leaders in the form of the Taliban and potentially much better leadership in the form of Kharzi, so ousting the Taliban was a good move there.

[Paul McEnery]

I am amused to see anyone say Pakistan is on the brink of a coup, when that's exactly how Musharraf is in power in the first place. Which, as always in these things, is what's been stoking the flames of radicalism -- a US-backed puppet in power thanks to US-backed military forces.

Still, we wouldn't want the truth to get in the way of our illusions, would we.

[Corrina]

The United States spent a large part of the 1950s propping up dictators in the idea of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend" in order to combat communism.

It's not a simple as all that. In Central America, it eventually came back to bite us in the ass. And I'm still not convinced that Musharraff didn't have something to do with Bhutto's assassination. Bhutto and her people had complained bitterly that the President didn't provide enough security.

[Paul McEnery]

Yeah i'd agree moreso paul. Clinton deffinitly could have been a republican (and no i'm not being sarcastic, sorry). Although i'd say al gore despite being a great conservationist is probabbly more conservative than clinton, i mean who the hell could support the Parents Music Resource Center. Jello biafra was right to call out tipper as a conservative.

Anyone who fancies listening to Jello should listen to Billy Jam's latest show, which is archived at WFMU.

As always, it's a mixed bag, where Jello cuts the gordian knot to tell some ugly truths about our politicians, but then screws it all up by doing that half-arsed sophomoric socialism thing that middle class junior Americans like to do, you know, the one where they act like Capitalism is their Dad, and to hell with curfew, I'm going to go out and see Jimmy, and you can't stop me!

Bleargh.

Still, it's Jello, and we love him.

[Samurai]

The Obama Ignorance Watch continues... now it seems Obama doesn't even know the major recent history of the state he grew up in, Hawaii:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2008/07/obama_ignorance_watch_1.asp

Barack Obama delivered a speech in West Lafeyette, IN on Wednesday and once again mangled some well known historical facts:

Throughout our history, America's confronted constantly evolving danger, from the oppression of an empire, to the lawlessness of the frontier, from the bomb that fell on Pearl Harbor, to the threat of nuclear annihilation. Americans have adapted to the threats posed by an ever-changing world.

Aaah yes – "the bomb that fell on Pearl Harbor." Who can forget that? It was the big one, the one that took out all those boats. I guess Obama's political correctness prevents him from noting someone actually dropped "the bomb" and it didn't just fall.

This is a surprising error for a Hawaii native (via the great Kansas heartland) to make. Perhaps Obama was merely confused, as he and his surrogates so often accuse John McCain of being.

The profound ignorance of history, time and again, from Barack is really quite worrying. He doesn't know that the Japanese planes attacked Pearl Harbor? He hasn't even seen the Ben Affleck movie, which would provide him with at least that much historical basics?

[Mr.EZ]

The profound ignorance of history, time and again, from Barack is really quite worrying. He doesn't know that the Japanese planes attacked Pearl Harbor? He hasn't even seen the Ben Affleck movie, which would provide him with at least that much historical basics?


You think he just might've read the sentence wrong on a speech? Like maybe it said bombs, or something, and he just misspoke?

He said bomb and 57 states, which is a hell of a lot better than every damn thing that's ever come out of Bush's mouth. Big frigging deal, keep fishing. You might find some whoppers over there, back in the 19th century. You know, where your ideals come from.

[FalconX2000]

The Obama Ignorance Watch continues... now it seems Obama doesn't even know the major recent history of the state he grew up in, Hawaii:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2008/07/obama_ignorance_watch_1.asp



The profound ignorance of history, time and again, from Barack is really quite worrying. He doesn't know that the Japanese planes attacked Pearl Harbor? He hasn't even seen the Ben Affleck movie, which would provide him with at least that much historical basics?

He missed an "s". Oh noes!!!:eek: :eek: :rolleyes:

I do think the slip is kinda funny, but seriously, you're making a mountain out of a speck of dust. It's about as serious as John McCain going

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edUuhfcJPzg

There's nothing to read into.

[Nick Soapdish]

The United States spent a large part of the 1950s propping up dictators in the idea of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend" in order to combat communism.

It's not a simple as all that. In Central America, it eventually came back to bite us in the ass. And I'm still not convinced that Musharraff didn't have something to do with Bhutto's assassination. Bhutto and her people had complained bitterly that the President didn't provide enough security.

I think that it bit us in the butt even worse in Iran.

And I think that Musharraf was "only" guilty of passive neglect. He gave less security deliberately, hoping that somebody else would knock her off for him. But hey, at least he's on our side - a firm ally in the fight against terror. As long as it doesn't actually involve doing anything about it in Pakistan itself. (Yeah, I know. He occasionally does stuff. But lets most of it just slide.)

[thehod]

The Obama Ignorance Watch continues... now it seems Obama doesn't even know the major recent history of the state he grew up in, Hawaii:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2008/07/obama_ignorance_watch_1.asp



The profound ignorance of history, time and again, from Barack is really quite worrying. He doesn't know that the Japanese planes attacked Pearl Harbor? He hasn't even seen the Ben Affleck movie, which would provide him with at least that much historical basics?

I'm not sure if you're being serious here Sam or not, but I'll run with the ascertation that you are for a second and say that it seems perfectly clear to me that Obama is not speaking literally here. He's using the phrase in the same way someone might say "Janet never really recovered from the bomb that Paul dropped on their marriage" To pick him apart on that comment alone says much more about his attackers than it does him.

I can't believe that any man with his apparent intellegence has his history of a pivitol moment so skewed.

Then again, a whole bunch of people think Elvis is still alive, so wadda I know?

[beetlebum]

The United States spent a large part of the 1950s propping up dictators in the idea of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend" in order to combat communism.

It's not a simple as all that. In Central America, it eventually came back to bite us in the ass. And I'm still not convinced that Musharraff didn't have something to do with Bhutto's assassination. Bhutto and her people had complained bitterly that the President didn't provide enough security.

The 50's?

The whole idea of containment--which was nothing more then an excuse for the United States to assert itself economically--became policy in 1947. The Truman Doctrine came into effect, under the guise of preventing both Turkey and Greece from falling to the communists by supporting them through military and economic means.

That set the stage for things to come. What happened in Iran with Mohammad Mosaddeq was just the beginning.

After Iran came Guatemala and the ouster of Jacobo Árbenz Guzmán.

And let's not forget about Suharto in Indonesia, Georgios Papadopoulos in Greece, the support of Jorge Rafael Videla and his "Dirty War" in Argentina, the support for the Institutional Revolutionary Party in Mexico, and so many others I haven't the time to list.

To me, Pakistan is just a continuation of this ( though it should be noted that Musharraff is pretty authoritative, he's nowhere near as bad as the other individuals I have mentioned.)

As for what you've said about Bhutto; I feel that it's plausible. Granted, I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but given the circumstances surrounding her death, I'm not willing to rule that out.

[Charles RB]

I am amused to see anyone say Pakistan is on the brink of a coup, when that's exactly how Musharraf is in power in the first place.

Last I heard, and correct me if I'm wrong, the main people trying to push Musharraf out were... the democratically elected members of the Pakistani government.

[PKIronMan]

Last I heard, and correct me if I'm wrong, the main people trying to push Musharraf out were... the democratically elected members of the Pakistani government.

Depends on your perspective. As a person who moved from that region I have particular appreciation for my ability, in the US, to even ~discuss~ Diebold, election irregularities, peaceful transfer of power, etc.

Unless something DRAMATICALLY changed I wouldn't consider those elections remotely close to normal by Western standards. It's just a coup made to broadcast on CNN and BBC. ;-)

[the4thpip]

Iraq Leader Maliki Supports Obama's Withdrawal Plans


In an interview with SPIEGEL, Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki said Barack Obama "is right when he talks about 16 months." It is time, he said, for an official timetable.

Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki supports US presidential candidate Barack Obama's plan to withdraw US troops from Iraq within 16 months. When asked in and interview with SPIEGEL when he thinks US troops should leave Iraq, Maliki responded "as soon as possible, as far as we are concerned." He then continued: "US presidential candidate Barack Obama is right when he talks about 16 months."



Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki says he agrees with US presidential candidate Barack Obama's plans for withdrawing US troops from Iraq.
Maliki was careful to back away from outright support for Obama. "Of course, this is by no means an election endorsement. Who they choose as their president is the Americans' business," he said. But then, apparently referring to Republican candidate John McCain's more open-ended Iraq policy, Maliki said: "Those who operate on the premise of short time periods in Iraq today are being more realistic. Artificially prolonging the tenure of US troops in Iraq would cause problems."

Iraq, Maliki went on to say, "would like to see the establishment of a long-term strategic treaty with the United States, which would govern the basic aspects of our economic and cultural relations." He also emphasized though that the security agreement between the two countries should only "remain in effect in the short term."

The comments by the Iraqi leader come as Obama embarks on a trip to both Afghanistan and Iraq as well as to Europe. Obama was in Afghanistan on Saturday to, as he said prior to his trip, "see what the situation on the ground is … and thank our troops for the heroic work that they've been doing." The exact itinerary of the candidate's trip has not been made public out of security concerns, but it is widely expected that he will arrive in Iraq on Sunday to meet with Maliki.




Maliki has long shown impatience with the open-ended presence of US troops in Iraq. In his conversation with SPIEGEL, he was once again candid about his frustration over the Bush administration's hesitancy about agreeing to a timetable for the withdrawal of US troops. But he did say he was optimistic that such a schedule would be drawn up before Bush leaves the White House next January -- a confidence that appeared justified following Friday's joint announcement in Baghdad and Washington that Bush has now, for the first time, spoken of "a general time horizon" for moving US troops out of Iraq.

"So far the Americans have had trouble agreeing to a concrete timetable for withdrawal, because they feel it would appear tantamount to an admission of defeat," Maliki told SPIEGEL. "But that isn't the case at all. If we come to an agreement, it is not evidence of a defeat, but of a victory, of a severe blow we have inflicted on al-Qaida and the militias."

He also bemoaned the fact that Baghdad has little control over the US troops in Iraq. "It is a fundamental problem for us that it should not be possible, in my country, to prosecute offences or crimes committed by US soldiers against our population," Maliki said.

cgh/SPIEGEL


http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,566841,00.html

[Charles RB]

Unless something DRAMATICALLY changed I wouldn't consider those elections remotely close to normal by Western standards. It's just a coup made to broadcast on CNN and BBC. ;-)

Why, what was wrong with the results? (EDIT: On the side of the guys who won who don't like Mushuraff, because I remember he was messing about during it)

[rick]

The Obama Ignorance Watch continues... now it seems Obama doesn't even know the major recent history of the state he grew up in, Hawaii:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2008/07/obama_ignorance_watch_1.asp



The profound ignorance of history, time and again, from Barack is really quite worrying. He doesn't know that the Japanese planes attacked Pearl Harbor? He hasn't even seen the Ben Affleck movie, which would provide him with at least that much historical basics?


You guys are really having a rough time coming up with anything aren't you.

That attack was just plain pathetic. :rolleyes:

[FalconX2000]

Iraq Leader Maliki Supports Obama's Withdrawal Plans



http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,566841,00.html

AWWW YEAAAH!:biggrin:

Unlike the previous mistranslation, this is real baby!

[the4thpip]

Barack Obama 304 John McCain 234

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/maps/obama_vs_mccain/?map=10

Now changed to
Barack Obama 322 John McCain 216

Can you feel the Mobamamentum?

[Paul McEnery]

You guys are really having a rough time coming up with anything aren't you.

That attack was just plain pathetic. :rolleyes:

I'm waiting for Obama to use the phrase "a couple three", so they can claim he can't count to four.

[Mr.EZ]

You guys are really having a rough time coming up with anything aren't you.

That attack was just plain pathetic. :rolleyes:

But don't you understand? If Obama accidentally forgets an S or adds 7 on to something in a time of dire peril, the entire world could burn!!!!

[FalconX2000]

Now changed to
Barack Obama 322 John McCain 216

Can you feel the Mobamamentum?

Pfft. It's called Omentum. :tongue:

[Kyuubi]

I'M HAVING AN OBAMAGASM!

[Sabrinaset]

I'M HAVING AN OBAMAGASM!

Don't expect me to draw THAT, you blue duck! :eek:

[Nick Soapdish]

But don't you understand? If Obama accidentally forgets an S or adds 7 on to something in a time of dire peril, the entire world could burn!!!!

He actually used a 5 instead of 4. He said that he'd visited all of the continental states save one in the last six months.

[Spike-X]

WHO FUCKING CARES?!?!?!


Christ. If I had the whole world analysing every time I misspoke, I'd have a fucking nervous breakdown.

[FalconX2000]

But don't you understand? If Obama accidentally forgets an S or adds 7 on to something in a time of dire peril, the entire world could burn!!!!

Ah thanks. You showed me the thought process for how Obama misspoke about the number of states. It was a minor thing, so I ddn't really put any thought into it.

When Obama accidentally said 57 states, the fact number was warring with the conventional number in his mind:

Fact - He had campaigned in 47 states.

Conventional - When you're talking about such a big number with states, you normally say 50 states.

Thus, it got muddled in his tired brain and came out as "campaigned in 57 states".

[Nick Soapdish]

I don't care.

I think they're both non-issues, as is McCain's remembering the Pittsburgh line instead of Green Bay's.

I was just giving a bit of background and I apologize for dragging it out a bit longer.

[FalconX2000]

Has anyone else been watching the issue face offs on Race for the White House? I've found them to be the best debates I've seen so far. Far more informative, entertaining and respectful than the crap that all too often happens on Dan Abram's show.

When I first started learning about pundits delibrately meant to debate one another on an issue, this is what I dreamt it would be.

I can't find some of the previous ones, but here's one with Tony Blankley and Rachel Maddow debating whether Obama or John McCain is favoured by the media:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/25750966#25726908

[section 8]

WHO FUCKING CARES?!?!?!


Christ. If I had the whole world analysing every time I misspoke, I'd have a fucking nervous breakdown.

Exactly, And remember both candidates are no doubt on the brink of exhaustion when these comments are made.

[LtMarvel]

Phil Gramm resigned from McCain campaign co-chair in a Friday night news dump...

Better for America
Worse for Obama
Better for McCain (if he rewrites McCain's economic policy)

Gramm wrote the "Enron loophole" which allowed speculation on many commodities, driving up their price (25%-50% of the current price of oil, according to testamony before Congress).

Gramm infamously said that this recession was inside America's collectiveheads.

And McCain, who told the press that he knows nothing about how the economy works, relied on this guy...

[Buzz Dixon]

.....
http://www.caglecartoons.com/images/preview/%7BC8C07B49-2316-450C-97F3-D9EA817BBEC7%7D.gif

[Samurai]

Obama to hold a rally at one of Adolf Hitler's favorite monuments to militaristic domination:

http://hotair.com/archives/2008/07/20/obama-flunks-history-again/

Obama flunks history, again
posted at 10:24 am on July 20, 2008 by Ed Morrissey

After receiving a hailstorm of criticism for considering Brandenburg Gate for a public speech, as well as official German dissuasion, Barack Obama moved the venue to the Siegessäule monument. Obama will speak about “historic” US-German relations, but once again, Obama’s own grasp of history has been proven deficient. Not only does the site contain a monument to Prussian victories over other American allies in Europe, its placement was decided by Adolf Hitler — in order to impress crowds in his idealized version of Berlin called Germania:

Still, even as the issue of his speech’s location has now been settled, a number of politicians in Berlin are still dissatisfied with the site. The Siegessäule — or Victory Column — was erected in memory of Prussia’s victories over Denmark (1864), Austria (1866) and France (1870/71). The column originally stood in front of the Reichstag, Germany’s parliament building, but was moved by Adolf Hitler to its current location in 1939 to make way for his planned transformation of Berlin into the Nazi capital “Germania.”

“The Siegessäule in Berlin was moved to where it is now by Adolf Hitler. He saw it as a symbol of German superiority and of the victorious wars against Denmark, Austria and France,” the deputy leader of the Free Democrats, Rainer Brüderle, told Bild am Sonntag. He raised the question as to “whether Barack Obama was advised correctly in his choice of the Siegessäule as the site to hold a speech on his vision for a more cooperative world.”

Andreas Schockenhoff of Chancellor Angela Merkel’s Christian Democrats said, “the Siegessäule in Berlin is dedicated to a victory over neighbors who are today our European friends and allies. It is a problematic symbol.”

Hitler didn’t just move the monument to its more central location. He had a taller column built for it as well, to emphasize its message of German military domination over Europe. He saw it as a message to Germans of their destiny — as well as to other Europeans as their destiny as well. It was never meant as a symbol of peaceful, multicultural co-existence.

Team Obama has outdone themselves on symbolism with this choice. They’ve managed to make their hosts uncomfortable for a second time with their choice of rallying point, and perhaps more so this time. If one wanted to talk peace, what worse location could one choose than Adolf Hitler’s favorite monument to militaristic domination? One has to wonder how France, Denmark, and Austria will feel about Obama rallying German masses under the Siegessäule. Deja vu?

Obama could be excused for his gaffe, except for two reasons. His team certainly understood the historical weight that the Brandenburg Gate would have lent his event, so why didn’t they bother to ask the Germans about the Siegessäule? Quite obviously, the Germans understand the meaning and subtext of the monument, and most of them wonder why Obama does not. Maybe this is a better example of clueless Americans traveling abroad than those who can only say Merci, beaucoup.

The more basic question is why Obama feels the need to conduct a campaign event among Germans. Meeting with foreign leaders makes sense for a man with no foreign policy experience whatsoever, but that doesn’t require massive rallies among people who aren’t voting in this election. In his rush to look impressive for no one’s purposes but his own, Obama has made himself look ignorant and arrogant all over again.

[KevinTBrown]

Obama to hold a rally at one of Adolf Hitler's favorite monuments to militaristic domination:

http://hotair.com/archives/2008/07/20/obama-flunks-history-again/

Same spot where Ronald Reagan delivered a speech in 1987, correct....?

[Charles RB]

Same spot where Ronald Reagan delivered a speech in 1987, correct....?

That was probably different, somehow.

[KevinTBrown]

That was probably different, somehow.
IIRC, it the speech in which Reagan was calling for the tearing down of the Berlin wall.

ONLY reason I remember it is because my ex-brother-in-law was railing against Reagan for "going over there" to do this speech. :rolleyes:

[the4thpip]

Obama to hold a rally at one of Adolf Hitler's favorite monuments to militaristic domination:

http://hotair.com/archives/2008/07/20/obama-flunks-history-again/

It's currently much better known as the long time site for the "Love Parade" techno rave and as a prop in "Der Himmel über Berlin", the original to "City of Angels."

Also, that Prussian monument had been around for a long time before that evil Austrian came along. So in no shape or form is it Adolf Hitler's monument.

[the4thpip]

Same spot where Ronald Reagan delivered a speech in 1987, correct....?

No, that was the Brandenburg Gate. Obama wanted to speak there, but Merkel felt she did not want to give him that kind of campaign aid. Kennedy and Reagan both spoke at the BG.

[thehod]

How long do you think it'd be before one of these blog sites runs an "Assasinate Obama and win a Wii" competition?

[Charles RB]

It's currently much better known as the long time site for the "Love Parade" techno rave and as a prop in "Der Himmel über Berlin", the original to "City of Angels."

Also, that Prussian monument had been around for a long time before that evil Austrian came along. So in no shape or form is it Adolf Hitler's monument.

Wait, wait, wait...

Are you suggesting that whenm Ed Morrisey wrote;

Quite obviously, the Germans understand the meaning and subtext of the monument, and most of them wonder why Obama does not

he was actually lying? Shurely shome mishtake! :eek:

[the4thpip]

Wait, wait, wait...

Are you suggesting that whenm Ed Morrisey wrote;



he was actually lying? Shurely shome mishtake! :eek:

Yup. Der Spiegel actually wrote yesterday that while some of Obama's distractors in the US are trying to play the Hitler game, Germans are much more likely to think of drugged up half naked ravers and actor Bruno Ganz as an angel.

[the4thpip]

Also, of course, if you're giving a speech, every location except the various Starbucks is going to be tainted either by the Third Reich or communist Eastern Germany in some way.

[KevinTBrown]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong (and I know someone will!), but I cannot ever recall a Presidential NOMINEE going to another country to meet with leaders like this. Especially a nominee that is not connected to the current administration. (I would suspect someone like Gore, when he was VP and the Dem. nominee, may have done so)

This whole weekend was purely about Obama. Where was McCain? Obama's out there looking more and more Presidential, and McCain is.... not.

[Charles RB]

actor Bruno Ganz

Maybe that's what's confusing them and making them think Hitler was involved!

[FalconX2000]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong (and I know someone will!), but I cannot ever recall a Presidential NOMINEE going to another country to meet with leaders like this. Especially a nominee that is not connected to the current administration. (I would suspect someone like Gore, when he was VP and the Dem. nominee, may have done so)

This whole weekend was purely about Obama. Where was McCain? Obama's out there looking more and more Presidential, and McCain is.... not.

McCain was trying out for professional baseball.

[the4thpip]

Looks like the White House is leaning on Maliki to take back his support of Obama's withdrawal plan: (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/21/us/politics/21obama.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=maliki&st=cse&oref=slogin)

The interview with the prime minister, Nuri Kamal al-Maliki, was published Saturday in the online version of Der Spiegel, a German magazine. It was widely picked up by American newspapers because it appeared to give an unexpected boost to Mr. Obama, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, who has called for an expedited withdrawal.
(...)

Mr. Maliki's interview prompted immediate concern from the Bush administration, which called to seek clarification from Mr. Maliki’s office, American officials said.

Scott M. Stanzel, a White House spokesman with President Bush at his ranch in Crawford, Tex., said that embassy officials explained to the Iraqis how the interview in Der Spiegel was being interpreted, given that it came just a day after the two governments announced an agreement over American troops.

(...)

Diplomats from the United States Embassy in Baghdad spoke to Mr. Maliki’s advisers on Saturday, said an American official, speaking on condition of anonymity in order to discuss what he called diplomatic communications. After that, the government’s spokesman, Ali al-Dabbagh, issued a statement casting doubt on the magazine’s rendering of the interview.

The statement, which was distributed to media organizations by the American military early on Sunday, said Mr. Maliki’s words had been “misunderstood and mistranslated,” but it failed to cite specifics.

“Unfortunately, Der Spiegel was not accurate,” Mr. Dabbagh said Sunday by telephone. “I have the recording of the voice of Mr. Maliki. We even listened to the translation.”

But the interpreter for the interview works for Mr. Maliki’s office, not the magazine. And in an audio recording of Mr. Maliki’s interview that Der Spiegel provided to The New York Times, Mr. Maliki seemed to state a clear affinity for Mr. Obama’s position, bringing it up on his own in an answer to a general question on troop presence.

The following is a direct translation from the Arabic of Mr. Maliki’s comments by The Times: “Obama’s remarks that — if he takes office — in 16 months he would withdraw the forces, we think that this period could increase or decrease a little, but that it could be suitable to end the presence of the forces in Iraq.”

He continued: “Who wants to exit in a quicker way has a better assessment of the situation in Iraq.”

[Cam63]

McCain was trying out for professional baseball.

Oh, a Madonna fan, eh ?

[FalconX2000]

Oh, a Madonna fan, eh ?

Sorry, I don't live in America, so the only Madonna I know is the singer. If there's a baseball Madonna team, player, lingo, etc, I don't know about it.:smile:

And well, I don't listen to her songs, but she has succeeded in making herself look 10 years younger than she really is and kissing French girls is great pron...uhh publicity.

[KevinTBrown]

Oh, a Madonna fan, eh ?

Sorry, I don't live in America, so the only Madonna I know is the singer. If there's a baseball Madonna team, player, lingo, etc, I don't know about it.:smile:

And well, I don't listen to her songs, but she has succeeded in making herself look 10 years younger than she really is and kissing French girls is great pron...uhh publicity.

Madonna has been rumored to be "seeing" Alex Rodriguez.

[Buzz Dixon]

Madonna has been rumored to be "seeing" Alex Rodriguez.ANybody can "see" Alex Rodriguez; he's on TV all the time. Madonna has been rumored to be banging him like a gong in a Chinese New Year parade.

[Corrina]

McCain was trying out for professional baseball.

McCain actually was doing a tour of the world last month and got less news coverage.

His people aren't happy about that.

[Samurai]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong (and I know someone will!), but I cannot ever recall a Presidential NOMINEE going to another country to meet with leaders like this. Especially a nominee that is not connected to the current administration. (I would suspect someone like Gore, when he was VP and the Dem. nominee, may have done so)

This whole weekend was purely about Obama. Where was McCain? Obama's out there looking more and more Presidential, and McCain is.... not.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080720/ap_en_tv/ap_on_tv_obama_s_trip

Is media playing fair in campaign coverage?



By DAVID BAUDER, AP Television Writer Sun Jul 20, 1:06 PM ET

NEW YORK - Television news' royalty will fly in to meet Barack Obama during this week's overseas trip: CBS chief anchor Katie Couric in Jordan on Tuesday, ABC's Charles Gibson in Israel on Wednesday and NBC's Brian Williams in Germany on Thursday.

The anchor blessing defines the trip as a Major Event and — much like a "Saturday Night Live" skit in February that depicted a press corps fawning over Obama — raises anew the issue of fairness in campaign coverage.

The news media have devoted significantly more attention to the Democrat since Hillary Rodham Clinton suspended her campaign and left a two-person contest for the presidency between Obama and Republican John McCain, according to research conducted by the Project for Excellence in Journalism.

News executives say there are reasons for the disparity, such as the continuing story about whether Clinton's and Obama's supporters can reconcile. They even partly blame McCain. By criticizing Obama for a lack of foreign policy experience, McCain raised the stakes for Obama's trip, "especially if he winds up going into two war zones," said Paul Friedman, senior vice president of CBS News.

Obama has traveled to Afghanistan and is expected to go to Iraq. He is also scheduled to visit Jordan, Israel, Germany, France and England. Network anchors stayed home during McCain's recent foreign excursions.

"The question really needs to be posed: Is this type of coverage fair?" said Rep. Eric Cantor, R-Va. "This is nothing but a political stunt."

Talk show host Rush Limbaugh said none of this should be a surprise.

"My prediction is that the coverage of Obama on this trip will be oriented toward countering the notion he has no idea what he is talking about on foreign policy and defense issues and instead will prop him up as a qualified statesman," Limbaugh told The Associated Press. "McCain, on the other hand, is a known quantity on these issues and his position does not excite nor fit the mainstream media's narrative on Iraq and Afghanistan, so they simply ignore it and him."

For each of the weeks between June 9 and July 13, Obama had a much more significant media presence. The Project for Excellence in Journalism evaluates more than 300 political stories each week in newspapers, magazines and television to measure whether each candidate is talked about in more than 25 percent of the stories.

Every week, Obama played an important role in more than two-thirds of the stories. For July 7-13, for example, Obama was a significant presence in 77 percent of the stories, while McCain was in 48 percent, the PEJ said.

Sure, there are some weeks Obama's going to make more news, said Tom Rosenstiel, the project's director.

But every week?

"No matter how understandable it is given the newness of the candidate and the historical nature of Obama's candidacy, in the end it's probably not fair to McCain," he said.

http://drudgereport.com/flashnym.htm

NYT REJECTS MCCAIN'S EDITORIAL; SHOULD 'MIRROR' OBAMA
Mon Jul 21 2008 12:00:25 ET

An editorial written by Republican presidential hopeful McCain has been rejected by the NEW YORK TIMES -- less than a week after the paper published an essay written by Obama, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.

The paper's decision to refuse McCain's direct rebuttal to Obama's 'My Plan for Iraq' has ignited explosive charges of media bias in top Republican circles.

'It would be terrific to have an article from Senator McCain that mirrors Senator Obama's piece,' NYT Op-Ed editor David Shipley explained in an email late Friday to McCain's staff. 'I'm not going to be able to accept this piece as currently written.'

MORE

In McCain's submission to the TIMES, he writes of Obama: 'I am dismayed that he never talks about winning the war—only of ending it... if we don't win the war, our enemies will. A triumph for the terrorists would be a disaster for us. That is something I will not allow to happen as president.'

NYT's Shipley advised McCain to try again: 'I'd be pleased, though, to look at another draft.'

[Shipley served in the Clinton Administration from 1995 until 1997 as Special Assistant to the President and Senior Presidential Speechwriter.]

MORE

A top McCain source claims the paper simply does not agree with the senator's Iraq policy, and wants him to change it, not "re-work the draft."

McCain writes in the rejected essay: 'Progress has been due primarily to an increase in the number of troops and a change in their strategy. I was an early advocate of the surge at a time when it had few supporters in Washington. Senator Barack Obama was an equally vocal opponent. 'I am not persuaded that 20,000 additional troops in Iraq is going to solve the sectarian violence there,' he said on January 10, 2007. 'In fact, I think it will do the reverse.'

MORE

Shipley, who is on vacation this week, explained his decision not to run the editorial.

'The Obama piece worked for me because it offered new information (it appeared before his speech); while Senator Obama discussed Senator McCain, he also went into detail about his own plans.'

[Samurai]

McCain actually was doing a tour of the world last month and got less news coverage.

His people aren't happy about that.

Right, and the vast difference in coverage guarantees that many people will not even know about McCain's trip...

[Gilda Dent]

The Obama Ignorance Watch continues... now it seems Obama doesn't even know the major recent history of the state he grew up in, Hawaii:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2008/07/obama_ignorance_watch_1.asp



The profound ignorance of history, time and again, from Barack is really quite worrying. He doesn't know that the Japanese planes attacked Pearl Harbor? He hasn't even seen the Ben Affleck movie, which would provide him with at least that much historical basics?

This is one of the most pathetic attempts at a smear that I've ever read.

What did the Japanese planes drop on Pearl Harbor? If I remember my history correctly, there might have been some bombs involved in the bombing.

[Samurai]

This is one of the most pathetic attempts at a smear that I've ever read.

What did the Japanese planes drop on Pearl Harbor? If I remember my history correctly, there might have been some bombs involved in the bombing.

Almost half the planes in the 1st wave carried torpedoes, not bombs. But either way, almost 200 planes in 3 waves using a variety of ordinance is not the same as dropping 1 bomb, like Hiroshima or Nagasaki, which is what Obama seems to believe. Still, it's just 1 more piece of straw to add to the pile of historical ignorance he keeps displaying time after time, by itself not all that big a deal.

[Gilda Dent]

Almost half the planes in the 1st wave carried torpedoes, not bombs. But either way, almost 200 planes in 3 waves using a variety of ordinance is not the same as dropping 1 bomb, like Hiroshima or Nagasaki, which is what Obama seems to believe. Still, it's just 1 more piece of straw to add to the pile of historical ignorance he keeps displaying time after time, by itself not all that big a deal.

You're actually jumping on a grammar error as "adding to a pile of historical ignorance"?

Have you not heard the phrase "the bombing of Pearl Harbor"? This is ridiculous.

[Michael P]

But either way, almost 200 planes in 3 waves using a variety of ordinance is not the same as dropping 1 bomb, like Hiroshima or Nagasaki

You are correct. The dropping of that one bomb (or its partner) caused far more death, devastation and horror than the entire Pearl Harbor attack.

[Sabrinaset]

And now Obama is saying he'll be President for the next "eight to ten years". (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/07/barack-obamas-b.html)You know ... this is why I really worry about how well he's going to do in the debates. Samurai always says Obama wants to be the next Jimmy Carter ... I'm more worried that the way he's speaking, he wants to be the next Gerald Ford, and then the next thing you know, he's going to say the political equivalent of "there is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe." or something like that. This is why I keep saying that it may NOT be a slam-dunk for Obama in the debates.

You can laugh off a mistake or two, but it is starting to get to the point where a few more of these misstatements, and he's going to get looked at much like Dan Quayle was.

On the other hand ...

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/Obama%20brain.JPG

...I gotta get myself one of those hats.

[Gilda Dent]

And now Obama is saying he'll be President for the next "eight to ten years". (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/07/barack-obamas-b.html)

He didn't say that, not according to your link.

[Sabrinaset]

He didn't say that, not according to your link.

Yeah, you're right. He said "I expect to be dealing with over the next eight to 10 years.", so he didn't specifically say he would be *President* Although, how would Obama be dealing with Sarkozy and others over those other two years? It's sure implied he'd be ... well, something.

[Paul McEnery]

And now Obama is saying he'll be President for the next "eight to ten years". (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/07/barack-obamas-b.html)You know ... this is why I really worry about how well he's going to do in the debates. Samurai always says Obama wants to be the next Jimmy Carter ... I'm more worried that the way he's speaking, he wants to be the next Gerald Ford, and then the next thing you know, he's going to say the political equivalent of "there is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe." or something like that. This is why I keep saying that it may NOT be a slam-dunk for Obama in the debates.

You can laugh off a mistake or two, but it is starting to get to the point where a few more of these misstatements, and he's going to get looked at much like Dan Quayle was.

On the other hand ...

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/Obama%20brain.JPG

...I gotta get myself one of those hats.

Eight to ten years is of course completely accurate when you include the eight years of the presidency, this year, and the first three weeks of 2017 before the inauguration.

So, yeah, let's call this more weak Republican gotcha reporting.

[Gilda Dent]

Yeah, you're right. He said "I expect to be dealing with over the next eight to 10 years.", so he didn't specifically say he would be *President* Although, how would Obama be dealing with Sarkozy and others over those other two years? It's sure implied he'd be ... well, something.

Hasn't he been dealing with such leaders already, this year? There's an extra year right there. If he's elected to two terms, his second will end in 2017. That makes for a time period longer than eight years, and less than ten. 2008-2017 inclusive is ten years.

Also, Presidents have been known to stay involved in international affairs after their terms ended.

I'm not even voting for the guy and these things seem like a stretch to me.

[Tetsuo_man]

Hasn't he been dealing with such leaders already, this year? There's an extra year right there. If he's elected to two terms, his second will end in 2017. That makes for a time period longer than eight years, and less than ten. 2008-2017 inclusive is ten years.

Also, Presidents have been known to stay involved in international affairs after their terms ended.

I'm not even voting for the guy and these things seem like a stretch to me.

Emphasis mine because that's really what i took from what Obama said.

[Sabrinaset]

Eight to ten years is of course completely accurate when you include the eight years of the presidency, this year, and the first three weeks of 2017 before the inauguration.

So, yeah, let's call this more weak Republican gotcha reporting.

I think you're really straining math there, Paul, especially when you consider that the first three weeks of 2017 would be part of his eight-year term. Well, two four-year terms.

And now ABC is picking up on it, and I'd hardly call them the press wing of the RNC. If Obama keeps misspeaking, it's eventually going to reach a point wherre there's no going back and everyone is just going to view him as a bit of a dunce. You can't call it a Republican Conspiracy if Obama himself keeps shooting himself in the foot. There's getting to be too many of these gaffes out there, and it's going to start clouding his message.

[Sabrinaset]

Hasn't he been dealing with such leaders already, this year? There's an extra year right there. If he's elected to two terms, his second will end in 2017. That makes for a time period longer than eight years, and less than ten. 2008-2017 inclusive is ten years.

Also, Presidents have been known to stay involved in international affairs after their terms ended.

I'm not even voting for the guy and these things seem like a stretch to me.

Well, if you REALLY want to make it a stretch, he said "For the NEXT eight to ten years," so by definition, it can't include what has already occurred this year, so six months to the inauguration, plus 8 years. Are there enough days to round up to 9 ... oh, screw it.

Look, I just want Obama to think twice before speaking once so he doesn't start suffering the death of a thousand cuts here! Is that so much to ask of this guy?

And, you know, count me in as someone who only wants the President dealing with foreign affairs and not candidates running for the job. Look, I know having W out there talking to an ice-cream vendor on the streets of Italy risks starting WWIII, but it's still his job until otherwise ... And didn't Carter cause more than a few headaches for Clinton?

[Dreadstar]

His mis-speaking is kind of reminiscent of . . .


Nah, not going to go there.

[king mob]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong (and I know someone will!), but I cannot ever recall a Presidential NOMINEE going to another country to meet with leaders like this. Especially a nominee that is not connected to the current administration. (I would suspect someone like Gore, when he was VP and the Dem. nominee, may have done so)


Gore met Tony Blair in 2000, but I think that may have been in the US, & Blair/Labour had already built up strong connections with the Clinton government. It's exceptional to see a candidate tour European & world capitals in an attempt to try to find out just how pissed off the world is with the US, & what a new American president can do to try to actually help make things better rather than worse.

[KevinTBrown]

Well, if you REALLY want to make it a stretch, he said "For the NEXT eight to ten years," so by definition, it can't include what has already occurred this year, so six months to the inauguration, plus 8 years. Are there enough days to round up to 9 ... oh, screw it.

Look, I just want Obama to think twice before speaking once so he doesn't start suffering the death of a thousand cuts here! Is that so much to ask of this guy?

And, you know, count me in as someone who only wants the President dealing with foreign affairs and not candidates running for the job. Look, I know having W out there talking to an ice-cream vendor on the streets of Italy risks starting WWIII, but it's still his job until otherwise ... And didn't Carter cause more than a few headaches for Clinton?

The thing is, Obama is dealing with it right now. McCain is not.

Assuming Obama does win, he'll have a 7 month head start.

And, as others have pointed out, once someone is out of office, that does not mean their obligation to what they've started has ended.

[the4thpip]

Gore met Tony Blair in 2000, but I think that may have been in the US, & Blair/Labour had already built up strong connections with the Clinton government. It's exceptional to see a candidate tour European & world capitals in an attempt to try to find out just how pissed off the world is with the US, & what a new American president can do to try to actually help make things better rather than worse.

And Sarkozy and Brown are actually hurt that Obama spends more time in Germany than in their countries.
They have Obama envy.

[king mob]

And Sarkozy and Brown are actually hurt that Obama spends more time in Germany than in their countries.
They have Obama envy.

It was quite funny to see MP's run around Westminster getting all dewy eyed over Obama. Obama is probably aware that if he is elected, then he probably won't be dealing with Gordon Brown for longer than a year so he's being rather cagey even though Labour & the Democrats have connections going back decades.

[Buzz Dixon]

Unless there is a dramatic turnaround in the economy over the next 120 days, I can't see how Obama won't be president. People vote their pocketbooks, and this year has been a bruising one..

I've heard some pundits suggest another major terrorist attack on US soil would be helpful to the GOP, but I think it could just as easily be turned against them: We went through seven years of this administrations ham-fisted policies and despite claims they were crucial for our safety they still couldn't protect us?

[Paul McEnery]

I think you're really straining math there, Paul, especially when you consider that the first three weeks of 2017 would be part of his eight-year term. Well, two four-year terms. .

Nope.

From here, it's over the course of nine years, ten calendar years.

[Typo Lad]

A lot can happen in 120 days. I'd hardly say it's in the bag.

[KevinTBrown]

A lot can happen in 120 days. I'd hardly say it's in the bag.
For one, gas prices will need to drop DRAMATICALLY. Not just, say, 50¢ a gallon, but at least $1.50 in order for McCain to have a chance.

That's just the tip of iceberg, so to speak.

[Charles RB]

Right, and the vast difference in coverage guarantees that many people will not even know about McCain's trip...

Is this actually a big media conspiracy, or are McCain's press and marketing guys just shite at their jobs?

And Sarkozy and Brown are actually hurt that Obama spends more time in Germany than in their countries.

If I were him, I'd want to spend more time in Germany rather than being near Brown too. (Plus, y'know, he might not have to deal with Brown officially for very long...)


I've heard some pundits suggest another major terrorist attack on US soil would be helpful to the GOP, but I think it could just as easily be turned against them: We went through seven years of this administrations ham-fisted policies and despite claims they were crucial for our safety they still couldn't protect us?

I'd hope that's how it would turn out.

[Corrina]

I think part of it is that McCain has been overseas before in his capacity as Senator. He did get a lot of publicity about his visit to Iraq last year, for instance.

Of course, there was a lot of jeering about his comment regarding it being safe to walk the streets of Bagdad, but McCain definitely got news coverage.

This would be Obama's first time meeting other leaders as a possible President, so that would tend to make it more newsworthy, as the first time for something often is.

[section 8]

I think part of it is that McCain has been overseas before in his capacity as Senator. He did get a lot of publicity about his visit to Iraq last year, for instance.

Of course, there was a lot of jeering about his comment regarding it being safe to walk the streets of Bagdad, but McCain definitely got news coverage.

This would be Obama's first time meeting other leaders as a possible President, so that would tend to make it more newsworthy, as the first time for something often is.

I notified the papers when i lost my virginity, but alas they did not find it newsworthy.

[Buzz Dixon]

I notified the papers when i lost my virginity, but alas they did not find it newsworthy.Dude, nobody works at a newspaper on a Sunday...give 'em until Tuesday.








(It's a JOKE, people!)

[Mr.EZ]

From Yahoo

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080721/ap_on_el_pr/mccain

In a TV ad on national cable and in 11 states, McCain pushed his support for offshore drilling as the remedy for rising gas prices.

And even though McCain opposes drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge in Alaska and during his 2000 presidential run opposed lifting the offshore drilling moratorium, his ad clearly tries to blame rising prices on support for the moratorium by Obama, a first-term Illinois senator.

As the price readout on a lonely gas pump rolls over to $5, the announcer asks, "Who can you thank for rising prices at the pump?" Rising from the background is the sound of a crowd chanting: "Obama, Obama, Obama." A smiling Obama appears on the screen with a pump rising over his right shoulder.

Finally the announcer says: "One man knows we must now drill more in America and rescue our family budgets. Don't hope for more energy, vote for it. McCain."

John, I know you'll probably never see this, but honestly, dude, you're fucking insane, and I'm really starting to think you should have never been rescued. Go suck on an SUV tailpipe, you utter abomination.

[Charles RB]

How much would this proposal really lower prices - and when, since it'd take a while to set everything up? Be a few years, maybe even near the end of the first term, surely?

[Cam63]

ANybody can "see" Alex Rodriguez; he's on TV all the time. Madonna has been rumored to be banging him like a gong in a Chinese New Year parade.

Damn... You beat to that one, Buzz.

[LtMarvel]

From Yahoo

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080721/ap_on_el_pr/mccain



John, I know you'll probably never see this, but honestly, dude, you're fucking insane, and I'm really starting to think you should have never been rescued. Go suck on an SUV tailpipe, you utter abomination.
Gee, the former McCain cochair was responsible for the "Enron loophole" that allowed speculators raise the price of oil (and electricity, etc.). Even the Bush administration admits that oil drilling will not lower the price of oil now (if ever).

But what do you expect from the candidate who admitted to the press that he doesn't understand how the economy works....?

[Tetsuo_man]

Gee, the former McCain cochair was responsible for the "Enron loophole" that allowed speculators raise the price of oil (and electricity, etc.). Even the Bush administration admits that oil drilling will not lower the price of oil now (if ever).

But what do you expect from the candidate who admitted to the press that he doesn't understand how the economy works....?

Then he claimed he never said that. But he didn't count on the existance of youtube. Which reminds me does he even knnow youtube existes? I mean since he really dosen't use the internet but i'd think he'd know...well actually he probabbly doesn't know.

[FalconX2000]

And now Obama is saying he'll be President for the next "eight to ten years". (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/07/barack-obamas-b.html)You know ... this is why I really worry about how well he's going to do in the debates. Samurai always says Obama wants to be the next Jimmy Carter ... I'm more worried that the way he's speaking, he wants to be the next Gerald Ford, and then the next thing you know, he's going to say the political equivalent of "there is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe." or something like that. This is why I keep saying that it may NOT be a slam-dunk for Obama in the debates.

You can laugh off a mistake or two, but it is starting to get to the point where a few more of these misstatements, and he's going to get looked at much like Dan Quayle was.

On the other hand ...

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/Obama%20brain.JPG

...I gotta get myself one of those hats.

That is true. Intellectuals always think they'll do well in debates, but it's very hit and miss.

[FalconX2000]

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN21464471

After a meeting with former President George H.W. Bush, McCain was asked whether it was conceivable for U.S. troops to be fully pulled out of Iraq in about two years.

"I think they could be largely withdrawn," the Arizona senator replied, citing the success of the "surge" strategy of increasing U.S. troop levels in increasing security in the country.

"As I've said, we have succeeded. This strategy is not (just) succeeding, we have succeeded. And of course as we all know it has to be based on conditions on the ground."

...

McCain spokesman Tucker Bounds said the senator's comments did not reflect a shift in position.

"The two years in his answer today is consistent with his position that we can begin to responsibly discuss the reduction of troop levels in Iraq as long as they are based on maintaining the security and stability of the gains we made," Bounds said.

:eek:....

*points and laughs*

TAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :biggrin:

[Charles RB]

Oh my god. :biggrin:

[the4thpip]

I don't want to jinx it, but McCain's McCampaign looks like it might completely implode like that of, say, Dukakis.

[Cam63]

I don't want to jinx it, but McCain's McCampaign looks like it might completely implode like that of, say, DUKAKIS.

Gesundheit !

[KevinTBrown]

I wish McCain would make up his mind. Either align yourself with Bush or don't.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080722/ap_on_el_pr/mccain

He's doing the "end around" by hanging with Daddy Bush right now.....

[Michael P]

I don't want to jinx it, but McCain's McCampaign looks like it might completely implode like that of, say, Dukakis.

I don't know if I'd go that far. I mean, Dukakis set new standards for failure in presidential politics. Granted, not all of it was his fault, but still, I don't really see McCain pulling something on the level of the tank photo quite yet.

[FalconX2000]

I don't know if I'd go that far. I mean, Dukakis set new standards for failure in presidential politics. Granted, not all of it was his fault, but still, I don't really see McCain pulling something on the level of the tank photo quite yet.

Perhaps he did the single most famous laughing stock moment with the tank, but was he really worse than McGovern?

[the4thpip]

That is true. Intellectuals always think they'll do well in debates, but it's very hit and miss.

Well, McCain didn't win this one, either.... So....

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1084322,00.jpg

[KevinTBrown]

http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/0708/McCain_camp_targets_media_love_for_Obama_.html#com ments

Does McCain REALLY want to antagonize the media by doing this...?

[Paul McEnery]

http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/0708/McCain_camp_targets_media_love_for_Obama_.html#com ments

Does McCain REALLY want to antagonize the media by doing this...?

Can we all just yell the word "hypocrite" in unison?

Aw mum, my best friends all have a new best friend!

[Sabrinaset]

http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/0708/McCain_camp_targets_media_love_for_Obama_.html#com ments

Does McCain REALLY want to antagonize the media by doing this...?

It worked SO well when Bill and Hillary did it, too! :rolleyes:

[KevinTBrown]

To John McCain, from a Democrat: You're living up (or is that down?) to your former advisor Phil Gramm's comments about this being a "nation of whiners".

DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

Stop complaining about the press being in love with Obama when you're doing little to help yourself.

DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

Stop taking weekends off and seize that slow news cycle.

DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

Stop whining about the NY Times not taking your Op-Ed piece when it's their right to publish only what they want to publish!

You won't because you're too damn stubborn to do it or to take any advice.

As a Democrat, this is the best thing in the world for me.






Sheesh.

McCain is looking more and more sad by the minute. If I was a Republican, I'd be thoroughly embarassed right about now. Obama has done "everything" right this weekend (Note the quotation marks) and has proven to many that he is stronger than they thought on what some perceived to be his biggest weakness next to experience. Obama is looking extremely Presidential right now, while McCain is looking lost.

It's going to be interesting to see the polls by the end of this week....

[Corrina]

Not that it really needed debunking but the newest report from factcheck.org talks about how absolutely, factually wrong McCain's attacks ad on Obama for the high gas prices are.

Fact: Even if offshore drilling is allowed, it will not affect prices/supply until 2030.

Fact: Even McCain has said this previously.

Not that facts ever stopped McCain's new campaign guy, the one who ran the 2004 Bush campaign, from attacking anyway. I suspect that's where this new strategy is coming from.

[Buzz Dixon]

McCain's last big media moment was pretending to fall asleep while Conan O'Brien was interviewing him. Some people feared he was having a stroke.

[Charles RB]

[QUOTE=KevinTBrown;7231746Does McCain REALLY want to antagonize the media by doing this...?[/QUOTE]

Looks like it.

[Paul McEnery]

McCain's last big media moment was pretending to fall asleep while Conan O'Brien was interviewing him. Some people feared he was having a stroke.

I hope and trust that double entendre was intentional.

[section 8]

I wish McCain would make up his mind. Either align yourself with Bush or don't.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080722/ap_on_el_pr/mccain

He's doing the "end around" by hanging with Daddy Bush right now.....

McCain was one of if not the most outspoken critic of (W) Bush's policies within the republican party, until recently

now that he has his eye on the white house, he seems less willing to burn any bridges.

[KevinTBrown]

As I said elsewhere, at least this ain't DCU Decisions!

http://blog.newsarama.com/2008/07/22/mccain-and-obama-comic-book-politics/

[Paul McEnery]

As I said elsewhere, at least this ain't DCU Decisions!

http://blog.newsarama.com/2008/07/22/mccain-and-obama-comic-book-politics/

They shoot get Matt Feazell to do a page in the back of each, one for Nader and one for Barr.

[KevinTBrown]

McCain campaign is starting to get desperate: http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20080722/cm_thenation/45338370

[Nick Soapdish]

From Yahoo

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080721/ap_on_el_pr/mccain



John, I know you'll probably never see this, but honestly, dude, you're fucking insane, and I'm really starting to think you should have never been rescued. Go suck on an SUV tailpipe, you utter abomination.

He probably forgot that he was against offshore drilling 6 months ago. He getting kinda old.

Not that it really needed debunking but the newest report from factcheck.org talks about how absolutely, factually wrong McCain's attacks ad on Obama for the high gas prices are.

Fact: Even if offshore drilling is allowed, it will not affect prices/supply until 2030.

Fact: Even McCain has said this previously.

Not that facts ever stopped McCain's new campaign guy, the one who ran the 2004 Bush campaign, from attacking anyway. I suspect that's where this new strategy is coming from.

It could be earlier. We could be getting 1-2 million barrels a day within 7 years (according to industry experts). The current worldwide demand is 86 million a day so it could boost the supply by about 1-2%. More, if we nationalize it. Less, if global demand happens to rise in the meantime.

I really don't know how to estimate how much of a drop in price that would be. Oil is a fairly inelastic good in that the demand remains pretty steady despite prices. That 1-2% (yeah, right) is probably going to be more than just a $.04 - $.08 cent price drop. But ten times as much?

And it doesn't relieve the bottleneck at the refinery level and I don't think that anything will. It takes a while to build a new refinery and they're pretty much running at max capacity. If they build new ones, it'll draw from the production of others (unless there is enough excess supply not being refined to fill its capacity) and the oil companies probably don't expect the supply to be increasing for very much longer. So it's an expensive investment that is likely to stop paying out soon.

Opening up drilling could restore some confidence to the speculators though. After all, it's the appearance of something, not the reality. Or we could re-introduce the regulations against speculating in the oil futures.

[FalconX2000]

Well, McCain didn't win this one, either.... So....

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1084322,00.jpg

I heard Bush also outperformed Gore in 3 debates. Sometimes if you're dumb enough while sounding smart enough, you can shock your opponent into submission by bulldozing logical reasoning.

[KevinTBrown]

I heard Bush also outperformed Gore in 3 debates. Sometimes if you're dumb enough while sounding smart enough, you can shock your opponent into submission by bulldozing logical reasoning.

Gore played "too nice" during the election.... He was being attacked, but he wouldn't attack back. All Gore had to do was bring up the fact that Bush is an alcoholic and former drug user and the election was his for the taking. He didn't want to get down and dirty and people took that for weakness.

[thehod]

Gore played "too nice" during the election.... He was being attacked, but he wouldn't attack back. All Gore had to do was bring up the fact that Bush is an alcoholic and former drug user and the election was his for the taking. He didn't want to get down and dirty and people took that for weakness.

Hang on. Gore decided to act like he wasn't in a playground, and that was mistaken for a weakness?

Maybe we all do get the government we deserve.

[Typo Lad]

Kevin is over-simplifying. It's more than that.

Another factor was Gore's choice to distance himself from Clinton, which cut him off from several key supporters, as well as voters who felt he was slapping Clinton in the face.

Further, there was the media's portrayal of Gore as a stodgy elitist, claiming he'd invented the internet vs Bush II as a maverick cowboy next door (who just happened to have an Ivy Leage education and come from money)

[KevinTBrown]

Kevin is over-simplifying. It's more than that.

Another factor was Gore's choice to distance himself from Clinton, which cut him off from several key supporters, as well as voters who felt he was slapping Clinton in the face.

Further, there was the media's portrayal of Gore as a stodgy elitist, claiming he'd invented the internet vs Bush II as a maverick cowboy next door (who just happened to have an Ivy Leage education and come from money)

True, it was an over-simplification....




Anyway, this bothers me to a point: http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0708/Obama_radio_Bootstraps.html

While it may technically be true, it's still not 100% accurate and is somewhat misleading.

Bad form, Obama campaign.

[Mr.EZ]

... Bush II as a maverick cowboy next door (who just happened to have an Ivy Leage education and come from money)

Saying W. has an Ivy League education is like dipping your toe in a puddle and saying you've swam in the Atlantic ocean.

[Typo Lad]

One can be educated, but not have real-world smarts. The man graduated, so he was there. That's as much as I'll cop to.

[FalconX2000]

True, it was an over-simplification....




Anyway, this bothers me to a point: http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0708/Obama_radio_Bootstraps.html

While it may technically be true, it's still not 100% accurate and is somewhat misleading.

Bad form, Obama campaign.

The site updated that the campaign changed the script before it went on air. The 'immigrant father' thing was changed to the usual 'He grew up without a father'.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/25812660#25813282

Zbigniew Brzezinski has perhaps one of the worst names I've ever seen, but I've seen him on Morning Joe a number of times and he's a damn genius. I normally don't care much for the show, but whenever he's on it becomes the best thing on TV.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/25812660#25813551

Hmm, I really enjoyed todays Morning Joe. They brought in Wesley Clark too. Joe himself is sometimes the most annoying part of Morning Joe, but it was overall the most enjoyable episode of it so far.

[Buzz Dixon]

IIRC, W. actually did better than Gore in college, and in a tougher major as well.

I think there were several reasons W. won in 2000.

The whole Clinton fiasco left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths. Bill should have resigned and stepped down. Gore would have been president, doubtlessly gotten a grace period during the rest of Clinton's unfulfilled term, and would have been elected on his own in 2000.

W. comes across in the media as a regular guy, Gore comes across as somewhat emotionally distant. (We're talking perceptions here, not reality.) In short, W. is warm, Gore is cool (and not in the good sense like Obama).

Gore also made some missteps during his campaign, most particularly trying to come up on W.'s blind side during one of the debates. It looked weird and creepy to a lot of people and got talked about.

I don't begrudge Gore's first demand for a recount (though it was kinda petty to first tip W. that he would concede the race then withdrawn the concession). I think after the first recount he should have just accepted it. It would have been disastrous if he had prevailed in court. Democrats complain about the Supreme Court deciding the 2000 election but they were the ones who chose that path. Gore never had a numerical advantage over W. in any Florida ballot count, hanging chads or no. If they had kept counting and re-counting until such an advantage was arrived at, the country as a whole would have perceived it as a fix.

[Alix Harrower]

W. comes across in the media as a regular guy, Gore comes across as somewhat emotionally distant. (We're talking perceptions here, not reality.) In short, W. is warm, Gore is cool (and not in the good sense like Obama).

Gore also made some missteps during his campaign, most particularly trying to come up on W.'s blind side during one of the debates. It looked weird and creepy to a lot of people and got talked about.


And yet more people voted for Gore than for Bush.

I don't begrudge Gore's first demand for a recount (though it was kinda petty to first tip W. that he would concede the race then withdrawn the concession).

Since he didn't know the results in Florida were close enough to merit a recount until after he'd called Bush, this point is ridiculous.

It would have been disastrous if he had prevailed in court.

Things might have been so bad that we'd have suffered a massive terrorist attack on our soil, institutionalized torture, and invaded a country that posed no threat to us at the cost of tens of thousands of lives and trillions of dollars, while the surplus Clinton left behind would have turned into the most massive deficits in history and the nation's finances would have collapsed as catastrophically as the price of gas skyrocketed!

Gee. Sure glad we dodged THAT one.

If they had kept counting and re-counting until such an advantage was arrived at, the country as a whole would have perceived it as a fix.

Again, since more Americans voted for Gore, this is profoundly unlikely.

[Buzz Dixon]

And yet more people voted for Gore than for Bush.



Since he didn't know the results in Florida were close enough to merit a recount until after he'd called Bush, this point is ridiculous.



Things might have been so bad that we'd have suffered a massive terrorist attack on our soil, institutionalized torture, and invaded a country that posed no threat to us at the cost of tens of thousands of lives and trillions of dollars, while the surplus Clinton left behind would have turned into the most massive deficits in history and the nation's finances would have collapsed as catastrophically as the price of gas skyrocketed!

Gee. Sure glad we dodged THAT one.



Again, since more Americans voted for Gore, this is profoundly unlikely.Alix, I'm not arguing who was the better candidate, I'm simply pointing out the things Gore did/failed to do to win.

Yes, he got more popular votes than Bush nation wide, but guess what -- WE DON'T ELECT THE PRESIDENT BASED ON THE NATION WIDE POPULAR VOTE!


We elect them on the basis of each state's Electoral College vote. I'm pretty sure every state selects their electors via popular vote -- I know Florida does -- and in Florida Gore never beat Bush in the popular vote.

That one was the tie-breaker. It's like complaining your team didn't get another chance after losing a sudden death overtime. Doing so doesn't make you look tough, competent, strong, wise, decent, or sportsmanlike; just a wussy crybaby.

That was 8 years ago, anyway.

[Michael P]

and in Florida Gore never beat Bush in the popular vote.

Actually, according to a full analysis of the votes done by the New York Times and released about a year later, Gore did win the popular vote in Florida by a slim margin.

[the4thpip]

Actually, according to a full analysis of the votes done by the New York Times and released about a year later, Gore did win the popular vote in Florida by a slim margin.

Yup, several non-governmental recounts showed that he would have won a full-state recount, just not the partial one he actually requested.

[Buzz Dixon]

Actually, according to a full analysis of the votes done by the New York Times and released about a year later, Gore did win the popular vote in Florida by a slim margin.Yeah, but despite their fondest fantasies, the New York Times is not a recognized branch of either the U.S. or Florida state governments.

Gore lost. He lost narrowly, but he lost by the rules in play that day.

[the4thpip]

Yeah, but despite their fondest fantasies, the New York Times is not a recognized branch of either the U.S. or Florida state governments.

Gore lost. He lost narrowly, but he lost by the rules in play that day.

That does not make your earlier statement true.

[Michael P]

Yeah, but despite their fondest fantasies, the New York Times is not a recognized branch of either the U.S. or Florida state governments.

They were using the exact criteria laid down in Florida election law.

Gore lost. He lost narrowly, but he lost by the rules in play that day.

No, he won by the rules in play that day, because the rules in play demanded a full recount. Bush had to bend the rules to ensure that such a recount would never take place.

[Buzz Dixon]

They were using the exact criteria laid down in Florida election law.



No, he won by the rules in play that day, because the rules in play demanded a full recount. Bush had to bend the rules to ensure that such a recount would never take place.Dude, it's so over. "Move on."

[Michael P]

Dude, it's so over. "Move on."

You're the one who brought it up. I'm simply correcting your misconceptions.

[the4thpip]

The "rules in play" on any election day should be that every vote is counted properly.

[Buzz Dixon]

You're the one who brought it up. I'm simply correcting your misconceptions.I was discussing tactics and their results vis a vis how candidates today might avoid/repeat old mistakes.

It's like saying "to improve your chances at winning a baseball game, try to avoid dropping fly balls". Somebody else decided to make it the equivalent of whether or not St. Louis would have beaten New York in 1904 if their catcher hadn't dropped the ball.

[Spike-X]

The whole Clinton fiasco left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths.

And one in particular...

[Alix Harrower]

Yes, he got more popular votes than Bush nation wide, but guess what -- WE DON'T ELECT THE PRESIDENT BASED ON THE NATION WIDE POPULAR VOTE!


Buzz, would you mind pointing out where in my post I said that the US elects presidents according to popular vote? I'd really be curious, since I did not say anything of the sort, nor resembling the sort.

What I did say was that Gore won more votes than Bush did -- a statement of incontrovertible fact. And that the fact that he did so suggests that for all of Bush's vaunted "regular guy"ness, MORE VOTERS VOTED FOR GORE ANYWAY.

Read more carefully in the future.

And get the fuck over Bill Clinton, you wussy crybaby.

[Spike-X]

And get the fuck over Bill Clinton, you wussy crybaby.

*sigh*

And you were doing so well...

[Buzz Dixon]

...you wussy crybaby.Alix, normally in my posts when I'm being rhetorical, I type "you (rhetorical)" so no one will misunderstand me. I failed to do it that time and I see where someone -- both you personally and others -- might have thought "wussy crybaby" was directed at you personally.

I apologize for that failure to be clear. If you thought the post was directed at your personally, please rest assured it was not. I'll try to be more careful re "(rhetorical)" in the future.

Best,
Buzz

[beetlebum]

Alix, normally in my posts when I'm being rhetorical, I type "you (rhetorical)" so no one will misunderstand me. I failed to do it that time and I see where someone -- both you personally and others -- might have thought "wussy crybaby" was directed at you personally.

I apologize for that failure to be clear. If you thought the post was directed at your personally, please rest assured it was not. I'll try to be more careful re "(rhetorical)" in the future.

Best,
Buzz

Buzz, if anything, you should be on the receiving end of an apology.

Still, I commend you for the way you've handled this.

[Alix Harrower]

Alix, normally in my posts when I'm being rhetorical, I type "you (rhetorical)" so no one will misunderstand me. I failed to do it that time and I see where someone -- both you personally and others -- might have thought "wussy crybaby" was directed at you personally.

I apologize for that failure to be clear. If you thought the post was directed at your personally, please rest assured it was not. I'll try to be more careful re "(rhetorical)" in the future.


That's fair, thanks.

[KevinTBrown]

And one in particular...


**applauds**

Well played...

[KevinTBrown]

Obama's Olympic-sized ad buy:

http://adage.com/article?article_id=129853

[Sabrinaset]

And now, for some more election news ...

The last gasp? (http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/07/23/clinton-supporters-try-one-more-tack/)

Obama hails miracle of Israel, reassures Palestinians. (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080723143648.jvplzusb&show_article=1)

Pawlenty for McCain Veep? (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/07/23/is-mccain-inching-towards-pawlenty/)

Obama trounces McCain ... in sales of t-shirts, badges, and caps! (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080723121702.684g2z7y&show_article=1)

Red Berens won't like this ... (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/jul/23/denver-wont-use-sound-wave-or-goo-weapons-conventi/)

[Samurai]

Obama is caught lying again...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjzb61wfyN0&eurl=http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives2/2008/07/021066.php

Obama continued:

Now, in terms of knowing my commitments, you don't have to just look at my words, you can look at my deeds. Just this past week, we passed out of the U.S. Senate Banking Committee, which is my committee, a bill to call for divestment from Iran, as a way of ratcheting up the pressure to ensure that they don't obtain a nuclear weapon.

But Obama is not a member of the Senate Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Committee. Obama just made that up so he could count the committee's action as one of "my deeds."

If committed by a Republican, this would be a gaffe of historic proportions. Even a Senator as inattentive to his duties as Obama certainly knows what committees he serves on. For him to fabricate the claim, out of whole cloth, that the Senate Banking Committee is "[his] committee," strikes me as another sign of Obama's megalomania. That, plus more evidence that he is totally at sea without a teleprompter.

Hardly a day goes by now without a lie or gaffe or flip flop from this guy. It's really quite incredible...

[KevinTBrown]

Obama is caught lying again...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjzb61wfyN0&eurl=http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives2/2008/07/021066.php



Hardly a day goes by now without a lie or gaffe or flip flop from this guy. It's really quite incredible...

Damn....

You're right.

He's not a member of the Senate Banking Committee....



But you know what?

The bill to call for divestment from Iran didn't come from the US Banking Committee.... it came from the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Which Obama IS a member of...

A lie? No.

A gaffe? Yep.

Overall, when compared to the flip-flops and out-n-out lies McCain has been spouting, it's a minor blip.


If that's the best you're going to do, Sam, better luck next time. :rolleyes:

[Spike-X]

*throws out a few more straws for Samurai to grasp at*

[LtMarvel]

Why did CBS cover up McCain's misinformation (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/)?

CBS chose to edit out a McCain answer in an interview. The answer gave a false timeline in the war of Iraq. CBS further pasted a McCain answer to a different question.

Hardly a day goes by now without a lie or gaffe or flip flop from this guy. It's really quite incredible...


Yeah, that McCain guy should get himself straightened out...

[Spike-X]

Why did CBS cover up McCain's misinformation (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/)?

CBS chose to edit out a McCain answer in an interview. The answer gave a false timeline in the war of Iraq. CBS further pasted a McCain answer to a different question.


That damn liberal media...

[the4thpip]

Why did CBS cover up McCain's misinformation (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/)?

CBS chose to edit out a McCain answer in an interview. The answer gave a false timeline in the war of Iraq. CBS further pasted a McCain answer to a different question.


Yeah, that McCain guy should get himself straightened out...

They're trying to make him feel better by making him look more competent than he is? After all, he told them they hurt his feelings with all the Obama coverage.

[the4thpip]

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1251114,00.jpg

[Typo Lad]

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1251114,00.jpg
Hey look! This time the touching is consensual!

Seriously though, my very pro-Bush cousin-in-law and his fellows are up in arms about the following Obama quote:

If you had to do it over again, Moran asked, knowing what you know now, would you support the surge?

"No," Obama said. "These kinds of hypotheticals are very difficult. Hindsight is 20/20. But I think that what I am absolutely convinced of is at that time we had to change the political debate because the view of the Bush administration at that time was one that I just disagreed with and one that I continue to disagree with is to look narrowly at Iraq and not focus on these broader issues."

In other words, after accusing him of flip-flopping on issues, they are now upset he's sticking to his guns.

The ranting. The horrible, horrible ranting (http://soccerdad.baltiblogs.com/archives/2008/07/22/id_rather_we_didnt_win.html)

[the4thpip]

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1249076,00.jpg

Auma Obama studied German on a scholarship at the University of Heidelberg and was a panelist on a tv special about xenophobic violence in Germany in 1996.

I thought Obama only had connections to 3 continents. Make that 4 now.

[the4thpip]

The talks between the German leader and Obama lasted for about an hour, and the pair reportedly discussed climate protection, global trade and German-American relations. Just after 12 p.m., the Illinois senator and his entourage traveled about a half a mile further to the Adlon Hotel near the Brandenburg Gate.

After his meeting with Merkel, Obama was also expected to meet with German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier of the Social Democrats. He also planned to meet with Berlin Mayor Klaus Wowereit.

At 7 p.m., Obama plans to give a major address on trans-Atlantic relations at the Siegesäule, or Victory Column, in Berlin's Tiergarten park. The speech is the only one Obama is holding during his one week tour of Afghanistan, Iraq, the Middle East and European capitals.


According to Obama's advisors, the candidate is expected to call on Europeans to increase their role in the war on terror. Obama is expected to ratchet up its efforts in that campaign, an advisor told Reuters. Obama has already announced that he plans to send more US troops to Afghanistan. He is also expecting greater contributions from America's NATO allies in Europe.

In an interview published earlier this week in SPIEGEL, Obama foreign policy advisor Susan Rice called on NATO to increase its troops and "to the greatest extent possible" to "lift operational restrictions." Though Rice did not mention Germany specifically, Berlin has drawn criticism in the US and Canada for refusing to send troops into the hotly contested southern part of the country where the Taliban insurgency has grown in strength. Instead Germany's armed forces, the Bundeswehr, are restricted to peacekeeping and rebuilding in the relatively safe northern part of the country.

Merkel and Steinmeier have both pointed out that Germany is already doing a considerable amount in Afghanistan and other crisis regions. They have reminded Obama that Germany plans to increase its mandate in Afghanistan by an additional 1,000 soldiers this autumn, bringing the total figure to about 4,500. Recently, Germany also took command of a Quick Reaction Force, which is expected to deploy in crisis situations.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,567804,00.html

[Charles RB]

Recently, Germany also took command of a Quick Reaction Force, which is expected to deploy in crisis situations.

Is this the same as the EU Rapid Reaction Force things or something else?

[KevinTBrown]

I just received this via email. It's not mine, but I think it's damn accurate:

99 Reasons McCain will lose

99. Bush's willingness to talk directly with Iran.
98. Bush's new time "horizon" for troop withdrawals.
97. al-Maliki's endorsement of Obama's Iraq strategy.
96. Obama's headline-dominating foreign tour.
95. His disagreement with the majority of Americans on Iraq.
94. His lack of economic expertise and policy.
93. Obama's $52M June.
92. His $21M June.
91. 29% of the Latino vote.
90. 2% of the black vote.
89. Charles Keating (he'll be back).
88. Vicki Iseman (she'll be back).
87. Randy Scheunemann (he'll be leaving).
86. His band-aid approach to energy (more drilling, more nuclear, a $300M "prize").
85. His band-aid approach to healthcare (tax credits, more competition).
84. His band-aid.
83. Saying things like "I know how to win wars," despite his never having won a war.
82. His wife.
81. His ex-wife.
80. The Hagee/Parsley un-endorsement debacle.
79. An uninspired base.
78. Ape rape.
77. His bff, Joe Lieberman.
76. His claim that Czechoslovakia still exists (it doesn't).
75. His claim that Iran is training Al-Qaeda (they aren't).
74. His claim that Iraq and Pakistan share a border (they don't).
73. His claim that Somalia is the same place as Sudan (it isn't).
72. His claim that Vladimir Putin is the president of Germany (he isn't).
71. 72 on inauguration day.
70. The images of 70,000+ screaming Democrats at Invesco Field.
69. Phil Gramm's "nation of whiners" implosion.
68. His unwillingness to call the situation in Afghanistan "urgent."
67. Steve Schmidt's failure to right the ship.
66. A new generation of Evangelicals who don't care what James Dobson thinks.
65. "Cunt."
64. "I hate the gooks."
63. His plan to resurrect Bush's plan to privatize Social Security.
62. The writer's rooms of The Daily Show and The Colbert Report.
61. His tarmac birthday party with Bush -- as Katrina made landfall.
60. "General Petraeus goes out there almost every day in an unarmed Humvee."
59. His belief that Americans are better off than they were eight years ago.
58. His "Frankenstein on barbiturates" oratory skill.
57. His beyond-pathetic "Pump" ad, which blames Obama for $4.50 gas.
56. His "Obama Love" ad, which blames the MSM for his terribly-run campaign.
55. His computer illiteracy (c'mon...this is 2008).
54. A tax plan that doesn't even TRY to hide the fact that it's geared toward the wealthy.
53. Bob Barr.
52. Ron Paul.
51. Rupert Murdoch.
50. His gay adoption/marriage high wire acts.
49. His immigration high wire act.
48. His torture high wire act.
47. His drilling high wire act.
46. His tax cuts high wire act.
45. Not churchgoing enough for some evangelicals.
44. Too evangelical for some independents.
43. His temper.
42. "I know what [Iraqis] want."
41. The starlet gap: McCain = Heidi Montag; Obama = Scarlett Johansson.
40. The Facebook gap: McCain = 173K supporters; Obama = 1.17M supporters.
39. His 1983-94 opposition to the Rev. Martin Luther King holiday.
38. His 2008 opposition to the Ledbetter Fair Pay [for women] Act.
37. His 2008 opposition to the G.I. Bill.
36. "100 years."
35. Viagra-gate.
34. His 0% rating from Planned Parenthood.
33. His 0% attendance record for the last six Senate Afghanistan hearings.
32. "Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly? Because her father is Janet Reno."
31. David Plouffe.
30. David Axelrod.
29. Republicans losing elections in traditional GOP strongholds.
28. His October 2002 insistence that victory in Iraq would be "easy."
27. His January 2007 insistence that he never said it would be "easy."
26. A resurgent Taliban.
25. Europe's Obamamania.
24. Kneeling at the feet of Jerry Falwell.
23. His penchant for gaffes, flip-flops, and lies.
22. 80% of Americans convinced we're on the wrong track.
21. The National Review calling his campaign strategy "likely to fail."
20. Another terrorist attack on U.S. soil "would be a big advantage to him."
19. Record turnout in the Democratic primaries.
18. A free Osama bin Laden.
17. "Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran."
16. A campaign hierarchy dominated by lobbyists.
15. Suggesting Obama is a "Socialist."
14. The Dow Jones down 2,000 points for the year.
13. Foreclosures soaring, banks failing, and inflation at a 17-year high.
12. Still pushing his ridiculous, Big Oil-friendly gas tax holiday.
11. Being out-raised by Obama 2:1...in West Virginia.
10. His "no" vote on SCHIP (healthcare for poor children) reauthorization.
9. His support for overturning Roe v. Wade.
8. His consistent opposition to minimum wage increases.
7. Obama's 50-state strategy.
6. His"D" grade for supporting veterans issues in the senate from IAVA.ORG
5. His support comes from people voting against Obama not for him.
4. His joking about beating his wife.
3. Mitt the man that made a career firing workers and sending jobs overseas
2. John McCain.
1. George W. Bush.

[the4thpip]

Is this the same as the EU Rapid Reaction Force things or something else?

Different. This one is all ours.

[Alix Harrower]

I just received this via email. It's not mine, but I think it's damn accurate:

78. Ape rape.

Is that, like, Grape Ape's evil twin with a goatee?

[KevinTBrown]

Is that, like, Grape Ape's evil twin with a goatee?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1rY4I4baCGA

[Alix Harrower]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1rY4I4baCGA

Ah, right -- I forgot about that. What a creep.

[Mr.EZ]

He's against the status of Roe V. Wade, mocked Chelsea Clinton and Janet Reno's looks in the same breath and he called his own wife a cunt. How is it not surprising that McCain is against women?

He's a dying breed that just needs to fade the hell away.

[the4thpip]

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1251717,00.jpg

[Charles RB]

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1251717,00.jpg

I see Obama's really likes being in Germany.

[KevinTBrown]

St. Pauli Obama??


:eek:

[Buzz Dixon]

More proof he's not a Muslim.

[Grazzt]

Anybody else seen Alex Ross' portrait of Obama?

http://www.alexrossart.com/news/2008/obama_full.jpg

[Sabrinaset]

Why did CBS cover up McCain's misinformation? (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/)

I'll hazard a guess on this one, and postulate that CBS, much like the other networks, thinks a tight race is good for business, and is going out of its way to downplay McCain screwing up when he does. Just so it can maybe *try* to tighten up the race for the better ratings, because CBS isn't doing that from an idealogical standpoint. I figure McCain will get 40% of the popular vote, but as far as CBS employees, I doubt he'd get .4%.

99 Reasons McCain will lose

79. An uninspired base.
19. Record turnout in the Democratic primaries.
2. John McCain.
1. George W. Bush.

Those four are the only ones that matter. And ...

55. His computer illiteracy (c'mon...this is 2008). Well, the guy was born in ... 1936? He's a freaking Digital Immigrant. My great-grandma *still* doesn't know how to program a VCR. We have to TiVO stuff for her when she asks. And I just found out my great-aunt is using a computer with Windows 98 on it. *sigh*

25. Europe's Obamamania. They're not voting.

24. Kneeling at the feet of Jerry Falwell. Uhm ... didn't Jerry die last year? :confused:

[king mob]

I've been watching Obama's speech on the BBC News Channel. This guy is bloody good at speeches isn't he, very good indeed. It'd be nice to have an American president who brought the US back into the world community & judging from the hysteria in Germany, so do a huge number of people.

[Stressfactor]

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1251717,00.jpg


It's been a looooong time since my college German classes but am I translating that one button correctly as either "I can hear" or "I can hear you" Do those slogans have some significance?

[king mob]

It's been a looooong time since my college German classes but am I translating that one button correctly as either "I can hear" or "I can hear you" Do those slogans have some significance?

His speech basically said ''sorry for the last 8 years, really, we're really, really bloody sorry for what America's done in that time but I've listened & I'll make things better. Honest'.

[the4thpip]

It's been a looooong time since my college German classes but am I translating that one button correctly as either "I can hear" or "I can hear you" Do those slogans have some significance?

"I know how to listen."

[the4thpip]

24. Kneeling at the feet of Jerry Falwell. Uhm ... didn't Jerry die last year? :confused:

Yes, and McCain says that his feet have been smelling much better since then.

[Stressfactor]

"I know how to listen."

Ah, thank you. I know where I was going wrong in my translation now too.

And yes King Mob -- Obama really is "bloody good" at speeches. :biggrin: It would be nice to have someone in the White House again who speaks properly. The Shrub never *did* impress me and when you listen to him respond to reporters' questions he's all "uh.... um...." and long pauses in the middle of his sentences. Makes him SOUND the way a deer caught in headlights LOOKS... stupid and about to be flattened.

[the4thpip]

Obama's speech in Berlin live blogging:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,567821,00.html

Police estimate that at least 200,000 people turned up to listen to Obama's speech.

[KevinTBrown]

Anybody else seen Alex Ross' portrait of Obama?

http://www.alexrossart.com/news/2008/obama_full.jpg

Graphitti was selling that on T-shirts at the Chicago Con this year.

They sold out before I could buy one! :mad:

[KevinTBrown]

55. His computer illiteracy (c'mon...this is 2008). Well, the guy was born in ... 1936? He's a freaking Digital Immigrant. My great-grandma *still* doesn't know how to program a VCR. We have to TiVO stuff for her when she asks. And I just found out my great-aunt is using a computer with Windows 98 on it. *sigh*

:confused:

Just to focus on that one....

My mother is 1 year older than McCain and is computer literate. So, IMO, his age has nothing to do with his lack of computer knowledge. His apathy in wanting to learn, on the other hand, is an issue.

[Gilda Dent]

Just to focus on that one....

My mother is 1 year older than McCain and is computer literate. So, IMO, his age has nothing to do with his lack of computer knowledge. His apathy in wanting to learn, on the other hand, is an issue.

Yep.

Also, it may help explain why McCain isn't familiar with computers, but it doesn't excuse the ignorance.

[Gilda Dent]

I knew a senator, Obama was his name . . . (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNE8tT5MVMY)

[Sabrinaset]

Yep.

Also, it may help explain why McCain isn't familiar with computers, but it doesn't excuse the ignorance.

Yeah, but ... I vaguely remember some study done awhile ago that ... well, the gist of it was that they took a bunch of 60-year olds and another group of ten-year olds, set each group up in different rooms with a DVD recorder, a TV, a couple of cables, a controller with batteries, and no manual, and told them to record tonights episode of Dr. Who or suchlike ... and the ten year olds beat the 60 year olds every time by a huge time margin. Often the 60 year olds never did set up the DVD recorder. Something like that.

So I'm willing to cut old people some slack on that kinda tech stuff. And we're talking really old, like people born before 1964! :wink:

[Corrina]

Yep.

Also, it may help explain why McCain isn't familiar with computers, but it doesn't excuse the ignorance.

I think if you can't understand the impact the internet has had worldwide, you shouldn't be president.

Hell, my elderly MIL knows how as well. She doesn't like it much be she understands email & blogs and sending photos. It doesn't take a freakin' genius to get it. McCain is simple not interested, which says 'close-minded' to me.

And that's all we need, another closed-minded president.

[Samurai]

His speech basically said ''sorry for the last 8 years, really, we're really, really bloody sorry for what America's done in that time but I've listened & I'll make things better. Honest'.

If so, what a smug, arrogant bastard. I guess now it will be the right's turn to put up a website of ordinary folks holding signs that say "Obama doesn't speak for me."

[Mr.EZ]

If so, what a smug, arrogant bastard. I guess now it will be the right's turn to put up a website of ordinary folks holding signs that say "Obama doesn't speak for me."

That'll show em! :rolleyes:

[Sabrinaset]

I think if you can't understand the impact the internet has had worldwide, you shouldn't be president.

McCain isn't familiar with computers =/= Can't understand the impact the internet has had worldwide.

It's still an insignificant point, though. Who's going to not vote for McCain just because he can't figure out how to use a flash card? The fact that the Dems are energized and the Reps are as lethargic as McCain is is the far bigger deal.

[Grazzt]

It's still an insignificant point, though. Who's going to not vote for McCain just because he can't figure out how to use a flash card? The fact that the Dems are energized and the Reps are as lethargic as McCain is is the far bigger deal.

While you're right that there are bigger issues, it could still cost him votes. I mean, look at Bush Senior and the grocery scanner incident. Or this picture of Stanfield fumbling a football:

http://images.theglobeandmail.com/archives/RTGAM/images/20031217/wstan1217/1217stanball3.jpg

[the4thpip]

If so, what a smug, arrogant bastard. I guess now it will be the right's turn to put up a website of ordinary folks holding signs that say "Obama doesn't speak for me."

Oh, go have a mint.

[the4thpip]

Obama's Berlin Speech. (http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/obamaroadblog/gGxyd4)

[Spike-X]

If so, what a smug, arrogant bastard.

Yeah, it's so smug and arrogant to acknowledge your country's imperfections and missteps, and to pledge to try and do better. That's certainly not something good ol' man of the people GW Bush would ever do, that's for sure. He's just a regular guy, waving his dick at the world and daring them to make something of it. Nothing arrogant about that at all.

[Charles RB]

If so, what a smug, arrogant bastard.

So making other nations like the sound of your government if they didn't like the last one, so there's improved relations and that makes it easier for your country to operate internationally, isn't a standard bit of foreign policy then?

[Charles RB]

Obama's Berlin Speech. (http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/obamaroadblog/gGxyd4)

The smug arrogance of him saying we should all be nice to each other and work together to make things better & that this can be achievable based on past acts!

[Mr.EZ]

The smug arrogance of him saying we should all be nice to each other and work together to make things better & that this can be achievable based on past acts!

What a bastard. How dare he?

[Mr.EZ]

McSame is hitting up Germans too!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080724/ap_on_el_pr/mccain

For those of you who don't know Columbus, OH that well, let me tell you a little about German Village. It used to be a shithole, an absolute shithole. It's a small section of Columbus that was plagued by crime, drugs and violence. Buildings and streets were in disrepair and it wasn't safe by any means.

Then a small group of people began to move into the neighborhood. They spruced up German Village and it began to show pride in itself. Businesses flocked there, art galleries, restaurants and kitsch shops popped up almost overnight, until it became one of the trendiest parts of Columbus.

That small group of people that fixed up the Village were gay. The homosexual population of Columbus, OH is a pretty fair sized group of people, and they turned a shithole into one of the nicest places I've ever been. (If you're ever in the area, check out The Book Loft. It's a 65 room bookstore that's in an old mansion, it's beautiful. When you go in, they give you a map so you won't get lost)

I just find it ironic that John McCain is chatting up people in a part of town, that was downright uninhabitable until a few years back, but became nice after a group of folks that McCain doesn't like, moved in.

EDIT: Also, I should point out, the town is called German Village because of the architecture and the bricked streets, not because there's a large contingent of Germans that live there. They might have at one time, but not now.

[Royal]

I think the time is right that either side shouldn't be thinking of the internet as just another toy and think of it as a means to communicate. Being a Neo-Ludite will lose the Security and Computing community.

Then again, I've gotten used to all these tubes.

[king mob]

And yes King Mob -- Obama really is "bloody good" at speeches. :biggrin:

It was very pre-1997 Tony Blair in places in that it was an incredibly uplifting positive and articulate speech, though hopefully he's not taken the lying bastardry that Blair became infamous for when he was elected.

It was the first full speech of his I've listened to, and as said, it's quite nice to see an American politician in Europe that isn't running away from protestors or dodging war crimes charges, but instead is trying to patch up the links between Europe & the US.

[Royal]

McSame is hitting up Germans too!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080724/ap_on_el_pr/mccain

For those of you who don't know Columbus, OH that well, let me tell you a little about German Village. It used to be a shithole, an absolute shithole. It's a small section of Columbus that was plagued by crime, drugs and violence. Buildings and streets were in disrepair and it wasn't safe by any means.

Then a small group of people began to move into the neighborhood. They spruced up German Village and it began to show pride in itself. Businesses flocked there, art galleries, restaurants and kitsch shops popped up almost overnight, until it became one of the trendiest parts of Columbus.

That small group of people that fixed up the Village were gay. The homosexual population of Columbus, OH is a pretty fair sized group of people, and they turned a shithole into one of the nicest places I've ever been. (If you're ever in the area, check out The Book Loft. It's a 65 room bookstore that's in an old mansion, it's beautiful. When you go in, they give you a map so you won't get lost)

I just find it ironic that John McCain is chatting up people in a part of town, that was downright uninhabitable until a few years back, but became nice after a group of folks that McCain doesn't like, moved in.

He should of hit up Frankenmuth, MI instead. That tourist trap would definitely go gay for him.

[king mob]

Someone called Carly Fiorina (some advisor to McCain) is being interviewed by Kirsty Wark on Newsnight right now. She's finding it tough going as she's actually being asked tough questions & sounding like a nice version of Samurai, (spouting nonsense about 'the surge', Obama isn't as patriotic as McCain) but failing to convince that the McCain campaign isn't worried about Obama.

It's going to be an interesting few months.

[David O Burcham]

It's embarrassing when Europeans visit the States and can speak English, yet a candidate for President goes to Germany and can't even deliver a speech to them in their own language.


Actually, Barry gave a good, uplifting speech and didn't refer to himself as a jelly doughnut... but I'm still not voting for him.
I'm even LESS thrilled with him than before the primaries. A vote for Barry TODAY with all of his flip-flops post-primary would be a vote for Bush's third term!

[Royal]

Someone called Carly Fiorina (some advisor to McCain)

Former CEO of HP and Surrogate (see Persian Messenger).

[Corrina]

I've been to the Book Loft and I highly approve of it. I got lost it in with friends. Another group of friends had to call us to find us. :)

Several of Jenny Crusie's books are set in German Village--the revitalized version, not the run-down version.

But the story does remind me of what the taxi driver said to me on the ride from Dallas Love Field to a hotel in Dallas. She pointed out a section that she said used to be very run down.

"It's the gay section," she said. "They were really good about making it look pretty."

It's early yet on the election. VPs to be selected, mistakes to be made, debates to be had. Could go either way.

And Bree, I'm not sure that you can understand the impact the 'net has had on society unless you spend some time on it. Possible, I suppose, but not likely. But that's a gut feeling, not a fact.

[king mob]

It's embarrassing when Europeans visit the States and can speak English, yet a candidate for President goes to Germany and can't even deliver a speech to them in their own language.

If it was only meant for Germany you'd have a point but it wasn't. This was clearly a speech designed to try to ease the hurt over the last 8 year's of Bush in Europe and in the US as I'm sure this will be getting as much coverage in the US as it is here.

[king mob]

Former CEO of HP and Surrogate (see Persian Messenger).

Ahhhh, ta for that.

[darkhanamaru]

Someone called Carly Fiorina (some advisor to McCain) is being interviewed by Kirsty Wark on Newsnight right now. She's finding it tough going as she's actually being asked tough questions & sounding like a nice version of Samurai, (spouting nonsense about 'the surge', Obama isn't as patriotic as McCain) but failing to convince that the McCain campaign isn't worried about Obama.

It's going to be an interesting few months.

Carly Fiorina is an embarrassment to the campaign. I can't believe they are still letting her talk except she is the highest powered female in his camp.

[Stressfactor]

It's embarrassing when Europeans visit the States and can speak English, yet a candidate for President goes to Germany and can't even deliver a speech to them in their own language.


(Actually, Barry gave a pretty good speech. Still not voting for him, though.)

Actually, a number of people consider it pandering to learn just a few words and phrases in the language of a country a politician is visiting and, considering the learning curve, it IS a little insane to think that a politician is going to learn French, Russian, Japanese, Chinese, German, Arabic, Spanish, and any number of other languages.

And you will note that a number of foreign politicians -- when called upon to make long, complicated speeches DO switch back to their native tongue and have the speech translated. It's one thing to make a few remearks, it's another to do a ten minute or longer address.

While it is NOT unrealistic for a person to learn at least ONE other language multiple languages are pretty much the province of those who want to teach those languages.

And as for German... No offense to Pip or any other Germans but pronunciation is DARN hard... and Americans tend to sound like idiots when we try. I know -- I took German in college... scraped by with a 'D' average and I was on the Honor Roll otherwise.

[David O Burcham]

I was referring to this comment made by Barry:

Now, I agree that immigrants should learn English. I agree with that. But understand this. Instead of worrying about whether immigrants can learn English — they’ll learn English — you need to make sure your child can speak Spanish. You should be thinking about, how can your child become bilingual? We should have every child speaking more than one language.

You know, it’s embarrassing when Europeans come over here, they all speak English, they speak French, they speak German. And then we go over to Europe, and all we can say , “[I]Merci beaucoup.”

Just poking a little fun at the man.

[Michael P]

And as for German... No offense to Pip or any other Germans but pronunciation is DARN hard... and Americans tend to sound like idiots when we try. I know -- I took German in college... scraped by with a 'D' average and I was on the Honor Roll otherwise.

I never had much problem with it, but yeah, it doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. And if you've grown up speaking English, pretty much all the diphthongs are counterintuitive.

At least we can say "th," though.

[David O Burcham]

And as for German... No offense to Pip or any other Germans but pronunciation is DARN hard... and Americans tend to sound like idiots when we try. I know -- I took German in college... scraped by with a 'D' average and I was on the Honor Roll otherwise.

You said it!

I studied twice as hard for German than Spanish. I had many, MANY e-mail and phone conversations with my uncle-in-law in Kenosha, WI (he immigrated to the U.S. after WWII). With his help I managed a C. That class dropped my gpa to a 3.92.

[Sabrinaset]

You said it!

I studied twice as hard for German than Spanish. I had many, MANY e-mail and phone conversations with my uncle-in-law in Kenosha, WI (he immigrated to the U.S. after WWII). With his help I managed a C. That class alone dropped my gpa to a 3.92.

Italian is a heckuva lot easier to learn than German, that's all I know.

[Typo Lad]

I was referring to this comment made by Barry:



Just poking a little fun at the man.
There's no-one running by that name.

[Paul McEnery]

Carly Fiorina is an embarrassment to the campaign. I can't believe they are still letting her talk except she is the highest powered female in his camp.

Hey, all the over-the-hill failures have to stick together.

[Charles RB]

Someone called Carly Fiorina (some advisor to McCain) is being interviewed by Kirsty Wark on Newsnight right now.

I saw that. I noticed she blinked an increasing number of times as the questions got harder - nervous, Carly? (I know I'd be!)

It's embarrassing when Europeans visit the States and can speak English, yet a candidate for President goes to Germany and can't even deliver a speech to them in their own language.

The Germans could understand him though - watch the clips, you'll note they cheer and laugh in all the places the speech meant for them too.

Plus he's half-aiming it as American voters - "look, here I am making all the right moves to foreign nations who are wary of us and I'm saying all the right things that'll play well both abroad and with you!". (And that'd cock-up if he was speaking in German and got words wrong...)

[section 8]

I have not yet read the article, but i have to say that, in this photo Barrack Obama looks Presidential to me for the first time.

[Paul McEnery]

Someone called Carly Fiorina (some advisor to McCain) is being interviewed by Kirsty Wark on Newsnight right now. She's finding it tough going as she's actually being asked tough questions & sounding like a nice version of Samurai, (spouting nonsense about 'the surge', Obama isn't as patriotic as McCain) but failing to convince that the McCain campaign isn't worried about Obama.

It's going to be an interesting few months.

She has a very innarresting rep on the left coast.

Heeere's Wiki:

Carleton "Carly" Sneed Fiorina[1] (born Cara Carleton Sneed on September 6, 1954) is an American businesswoman. As vice-president at AT&T in 1996, she directed the strategy and orchestrated the initial public offering (IPO) of Lucent, the most successful IPO in U.S. history until then. In 1998, Fortune magazine listed her as #1 "most powerful woman in business."[2] The next year, Fiorina switched to the technology company Hewlett-Packard (HP) and became its chief executive officer. In 2000, she also became HP’s chairman of the board. With the support of the Board of Directors, she led HP into a controversial merger with rival Compaq in 2002. During her tenure, the market halved HP’s value and the company incurred heavy job losses.[3] When Fiorina was asked by the Board of Directors to step down in 2005, the company stated that Fiorina had put in place “a plan that has given HP the capabilities to compete and win" and that HP "look[ed] forward to accelerating execution of the company's strategy". [4]

Currently Fiorina is a contributor for the Fox Business Network[5] and a top advisor to Republican presidential candidate John McCain.[6]

[KevinTBrown]

If so, what a smug, arrogant bastard. I guess now it will be the right's turn to put up a website of ordinary folks holding signs that say "McCain doesn't speak for me."

There, fixed it for you.

McCain is the smug arrogant bastard.

You know, the one who cheats on his first wife after she survives a horendous car accident that (negatively) altered her looks, calls his mistre... er, new wife a cunt, wants to reverse "Roe v. Wade", and essentially make women second-class citizens once again. (Hm, no wonder he wants to remain in Iraq, he relates to the men there.....)

[section 8]

There, fixed it for you.

Politicians are smug arrogant bastards.

.

Fixed again

[Mr.EZ]

I've been to the Book Loft and I highly approve of it. I got lost it in with friends. Another group of friends had to call us to find us. :)

Several of Jenny Crusie's books are set in German Village--the revitalized version, not the run-down version.

The Book Loft is the only thing about Ohio that I miss, that place was book heaven.

And thanks for the tip about Jenny Cruisie, I'll be sure to check her out.

[LtMarvel]

If so, what a smug, arrogant bastard. I guess now it will be the right's turn to put up a website of ordinary folks holding signs that say "Obama doesn't speak for me."
yeah, what's that right track/wrong track number now...?

[Spike-X]

The smug arrogance of him saying we should all be nice to each other and work together to make things better & that this can be achievable based on past acts!

What a bastard. How dare he?

I bet he was sipping tea as he said it, too. With his pinky out.

And sneering. Definitely sneering. Fuckin' elitist. Thinking he's better'n us cuz he can form complete sentences an' shit!

[the4thpip]

didn't refer to himself as a jelly doughnut...

You know that is an urban myth, right?

http://urbanlegends.about.com/cs/historical/a/jfk_berliner.htm

[the4thpip]

You said it!

I studied twice as hard for German than Spanish. I had many, MANY e-mail and phone conversations with my uncle-in-law in Kenosha, WI (he immigrated to the U.S. after WWII). With his help I managed a C. That class dropped my gpa to a 3.92.

Oh, I totally agree on German being difficult. Second most difficult language I know. But you all should try Russian. It's nuts!!

[David O Burcham]

You know that is an urban myth, right?

http://urbanlegends.about.com/cs/historical/a/jfk_berliner.htm

But, it's a FUNNY urban myth.

[David O Burcham]

Oh, I totally agree on German being difficult. Second most difficult language I know. But you all should try Russian. It's nuts!!

Heh... I have a hard enough time with English.

I only managed German because my father's sister is married to a German immigrant and Spanish because my mother's brother has been a missionary in Lima, Peru for 35 years. I don't have any family members who speak Russian for back up!

I retained more from my family members who have to/had to speak those languages regularly. Most of the textbook and audio tape lessons ended up being nothing more than temporary memorization.

[KevinTBrown]

McCain battles the truth. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap_campaignplus/20080725/ap_ca/mccain_s_gaffes;_ylt=AtPRFtPywGhkQ72l71hcMp1snwcF)

[FalconX2000]

http://blogs.usatoday.com/onpolitics/2008/07/obama-campaig-2.html

Just in case Samurai or Brareos decides to bring it up, Obama decided against the Germany wounded troops visit after the Pentagon discouraged it.

[Corrina]

The Book Loft is the only thing about Ohio that I miss, that place was book heaven.

And thanks for the tip about Jenny Cruisie, I'll be sure to check her out.

Fast Women is the book you want.

My husband took German in college and also struggled with it. Got a C, I think, compared to his A average in the other courses.

[the4thpip]

McCain battles the truth. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap_campaignplus/20080725/ap_ca/mccain_s_gaffes;_ylt=AtPRFtPywGhkQ72l71hcMp1snwcF)

McCain was in Jordan with Sen. Joe Lieberman on March 18 when he asserted that Iranian operatives were aiding al-Qaida fighters in Iraq. Lieberman whispered to him, and McCain corrected himself: Iran was aiding extremists, not al-Qaida.

That distinction — al-Qaida is a Sunni Muslim group while Iran is a predominantly Shiite Muslim nation — had tripped up McCain a day earlier in a radio interview. The next month, during a Senate hearing on April 8, McCain stumbled again by referring to al-Qaida in Iraq as "an obscure sect of Shiites."

Gah. You'd think they'd at least prep him on the basics. I guess even his advisers don't think there is any risk of McCain having to become Commander in Chief.

[FalconX2000]

I don't know what it is about Brian Williams. He isn't the best reporter, nor the best speaker, nor does he necessarily get the facts right more often than others, but somehow he and Obama share a great chemistry when he's interviewing the Illinois candidate and I find watching them profoundly enjoyable.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/25837562#25835246

[Samurai]

http://blogs.usatoday.com/onpolitics/2008/07/obama-campaig-2.html

Just in case Samurai or Brareos decides to bring it up, Obama decided against the Germany wounded troops visit after the Pentagon discouraged it.

Other reports show that they didn't tell Obama he couldn't visit the troops, just that he couldn't campaign there.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/07/24/1220011.aspx

A U.S. military official tells NBC News they were making preparations for Sen. Barack Obama to visit wounded troops at the Landstuhl Medical Center at Ramstein, Germany on Friday, but "for some reason the visit was called off."

One military official who was working on the Obama visit said because political candidates are prohibited from using military installations as campaign backdrops, Obama's representatives were told, "he could only bring two or three of his Senate staff member, no campaign officials or workers." In addition, "Obama could not bring any media. Only military photographers would be permitted to record Obama's visit."

The official said "We didn't know why" the request to visit the wounded troops was withdrawn. "He (Obama) was more than welcome. We were all ready for him."

So, since he couldn't have all his adoring media there to photograph him, he decided to scrap the event. Too busy campaigning to take a few hours out to visit the troops without the media present.

[Joe Rice]

Except he's visited other troops before, even in Iraq recently.

So, yeah, maybe he was too busy campaigning. It's pretty important that he gets this presidency lest we have four more years of this imperial, constitution-hating nonsense.

[Samurai]

Except he's visited other troops before, even in Iraq recently.

So, yeah, maybe he was too busy campaigning. It's pretty important that he gets this presidency lest we have four more years of this imperial, constitution-hating nonsense.

Was he allowed to have photographers and reporters there in Iraq? If so, that explains why he was able to find the time in his busy schedule...

[the4thpip]

Was he allowed to have photographers and reporters there in Iraq? If so, that explains why he was able to find the time in his busy schedule...

And did they check if he was maybe carrying an explosives belt? OMG! :eek:

[the4thpip]

McCain memo is riddled with inaccuracies

On Friday, John McCain's campaign put out a memo that purports to debunk that "three prevailing myths about Barack Obama's foreign policy ... [that] work to Obama's benefit, are indeed propagated by his campaign at times, but have no real basis in fact." The memo, written by Randy Scheunemann, a senior advisor to McCain, is separated into three sections, each with its own "myth" and countervailing "fact." But it's the memo itself that's full of myths -- actually, as a colleague quipped to me, the memo would have been much more accurate if the "myth" and "fact" headers had been reversed.

Take the first section, which begins with this "myth": "Barack Obama Claims People Have Adopted His Unconditional Timetable for Withdrawal From Iraq." Under "fact," Scheunemann writes:

John McCain, our military commanders and the Iraqi government agree that our troops should come home based upon conditions on the ground -- not the unconditional timetable Barack Obama supports. Unlike Barack Obama, John McCain believes our troops should come home with honor and victory. Barack Obama's support for an unconditional timetable has led to an "open disagreement" with our military commanders. Even Iraqi leaders believe our troops should leave depending upon conditions on the ground. The only one advocating an arbitrary, unconditional timetable is Barack Obama. Everyone but Barack Obama agrees that a withdrawal dictated purely by politics invites chaos and the possibility that our troops would have to return.

Set aside for its pure silliness the implication that Obama wants American troops to come home in dishonor and defeat. There's also the implication that Obama wants to withdraw all troops from Iraq, something that's clearly not true. Nor has Obama advocated an "arbitrary, unconditional" timetable. After laying out his plan for withdrawal in his recent Op-Ed in the New York Times, Obama wrote, "In carrying out this strategy, we would inevitably need to make tactical adjustments. As I have often said, I would consult with commanders on the ground and the Iraqi government to ensure that our troops were redeployed safely, and our interests protected." And former Obama advisor Samantha Power has previously made clear that Obama's plan is a "best-case scenario" subject to change based on conditions on the ground.

Then there's Scheunemann's contention that "even Iraqi leaders believe our troops should leave depending upon conditions on the ground." McCain himself says he has heard that in private meetings he has held with Iraqis. But that's certainly not what Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has said in public statements recently.

The second part of Scheunemann's memo is no better. The "myth" Scheunemann claims to explode is, "Barack Obama Claims the United States Has Adopted His Policy of Unconditional, Presidential-Level Meetings With Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad."

Ahmadinejad makes a great boogeyman for the McCain campaign to exploit. But as I've written in this space before, and as Time's Joe Klein has repeatedly done a superlative job of explaining, there's no real reason to believe that the Iranian leader Obama would meet with would be Ahmadinejad. In May, Klein wrote:

I promised to check into whether Obama had ever said that he would negotiate -- specifically, by name -- with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Indeed, according to the crack Time Magazine research department and the Obama campaign, he never has. He did say that he would negotiate with the Iranian leadership -- but, on matters of foreign policy and Iran's nuclear program, the guy in charge is the Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei. As of today, John McCain was still accusing Obama of wanting to negotiate with Ahmadinejad. Why doesn't the McCain campaign and other assorted Republicans ever accuse Obama of wanting to negotiate with Khamenei? Well, because Khamenei isn't quite the flagrant anti-Semite Ahmadinejad is.



http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2008/07/25/mccain_memo/index.html

[FalconX2000]

Was he allowed to have photographers and reporters there in Iraq? If so, that explains why he was able to find the time in his busy schedule...

If you've been watching any of the news at all, you'd know that the reporters Obama brought to the middle-east had just about zilch access to him till his press conference in Isreal.

Some of them, like Andrea Mitchell at some points, got peeved about it and started bitching for the camera.

[Samurai]

This is great:

http://ibdeditorials.com/IMAGES/CARTOONS/toon071508.gif

[Samurai]

If you've been watching any of the news at all, you'd know that the reporters Obama brought to the middle-east had just about zilch access to him till his press conference in Isreal.

Some of them, like Andrea Mitchell at some points, got peeved about it and started bitching for the camera.

Sorry, I haven't been following the Obama World Campaign Tour closely at all... too much of a media stunt. I just find it revolting that he'd cancel a visit to wounded troops simply because he couldn't bring his campaign staff and reporters with him.