Shooter and the future of the Legion *SPECULATION*

[Mon-el]

According to today's LITG rumour column.

Jim Shooter's non-attendance was due to being dropped off "Legion" by DC.

Personally, I think this is sad news. if and I stress the word "If" that rumour is considered to be true.

[Alex Smith]

Really? but didn't his run just start not too long ago? I've got to believe they'll give him more of a chance than this.

[lazlo_toth]

According to today's LITG rumour column.



Personally, I think this is sad news. if and I stress the word "If" that rumour is considered to be true.

Well, it certainly has to be because of political reasons if it is true. The last time I checked, the title was still selling well above the level it was at before he took over. I really hope it's not true, though, I'm actually rather enjoying the book.

[pryde15]

What? I hope it's not true, Shooter is doing a great job with this title, I would hate to see it abruptly end. :frown:

[Sijo]

He probably proposed a story arc where nobody died and Didio didn't like it. :wink:

[shaxper]

If this is true, it would be par for Shooter. Brilliant writer (one of the best that the industry has ever seen, in my opinion), but also a nightmare of a co-worker. Shooter has a lot of enemies back from the old Marvel days, and that may very well have carried over to DC in 2008. There's a reason why he wasn't worked with the big two since the 1980s. .Some of that old antagonism was undeserved, but his one-on-one diplomacy with collegues has always appeared to be lacking.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

If this is true, it would be par for Shooter. Brilliant writer (one of the best that the industry has ever seen, in my opinion), but also a nightmare of a co-worker. Shooter has a lot of enemies back from the old Marvel days, and that may very well have carried over to DC in 2008. There's a reason why he wasn't worked with the big two since the 1980s. .Some of that old antagonism was undeserved, but his one-on-one diplomacy with collegues has always appeared to be lacking.

He has a tendacy to take over and I sense fear at DC. During some conventions last year ...Shooter it seemed to answer more and more questions and discuss DC's storylines. More so than Didio.

[Joe Acro]

Although it wouldn't surprise me terribly for Shooter to leave due to internal disputes (either direct or indirect), him leaving the title would be unfortunate. I've been enjoying what he's been doing, so much so that the Legion is the DC title I look most forward to.

I hope that it's not true. But if it is, I hope his replacement can give me the same quality entertainment.

[earl]

If I were to lay a bet, I would think that this run of Legion will conclude and there will be a new title start coming out of 'Legion of Three Worlds".

It may not be a firing as much as this title and where it is going will finish.

[DeadXMan]

He has a tendacy to take over and I sense fear at DC. During some conventions last year ...Shooter it seemed to answer more and more questions and discuss DC's storylines. More so than Didio.

If by some miracle Didio was fired as EiC Shooter would of been the perfect choice for a replacement.

[Ryan Day]

There's no way DC would hire Shooter to be EiC. While he's a pretty talented guy, he also has a history of not getting along with others - something that's not going to go over well these days, when wooing top creative teams is one of the EiC's main responsibilities.

[DeadXMan]

There's no way DC would hire Shooter to be EiC. While he's a pretty talented guy, he also has a history of not getting along with others - something that's not going to go over well these days, when wooing top creative teams is one of the EiC's main responsibilities.

He's a no nonsence SoB. But he also gets results.

[Ryan Day]

He's a no nonsence SoB. But he also gets results.

He got results. When was the last time he had a successful venture? The early days of Valiant in the nineties - when he got booted from the company after a year or so. He followed that up with Defiant, which pretty much flopped.

The industry is radically different than it was when he was at Marvel. I don't think his style would be nearly so successful now.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

There's no way DC would hire Shooter to be EiC. While he's a pretty talented guy, he also has a history of not getting along with others - something that's not going to go over well these days, when wooing top creative teams is one of the EiC's main responsibilities.

He was someone who back in the 80's handed DC their ass and had a run of creative teams that were good. He's a taskmaster....and he'd demand good work. I'd think some would flock to work with him since...well he's a Legend. And saying "Jim Shooter gave me Superman to write..." would be kinda awesome to hear.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

He got results. When was the last time he had a successful venture? The early days of Valiant in the nineties - when he got booted from the company after a year or so. He followed that up with Defiant, which pretty much flopped.

The industry is radically different than it was when he was at Marvel. I don't think his style would be nearly so successful now.

Making people do good quality work never goes outta style. Long as he the work is good and people give a damn....I think Shooter could produce results. Even if he stepped outta the 1980's. His work as EIC shows he maybe a tough guy...but the stories were good.

[van_line]

He got results. When was the last time he had a successful venture? The early days of Valiant in the nineties - when he got booted from the company after a year or so. He followed that up with Defiant, which pretty much flopped.

The industry is radically different than it was when he was at Marvel. I don't think his style would be nearly so successful now.

I think you are downplaying the success Valiant had while Shooter was there. Was Defiant a money thing and also Broadway comics?


I thought Broadway comics had a little something with "the powers that be".

[KJ_81]

On a whim, I added Legion to my pull list with the beginning of Shooter's run. I've loved it so far, and have picked up trades and back issues to find out more.

If he's off the book already, I'll be dropping it as well.

[Ontir]

I had heard, way back when, that he was only supposed to be a guest-star, fill-in, before Johns took over, but that his re-boot had been scuttled as a bit of face-saving/not wanting to dump Waid.2 so quickly.

Maybe they changed their minds. Maybe the response to Johns' Legion has been big enough that they're reversing course and he's going to take over after all. Either way, I think the Legion's in the best hands it's been in, since DnA were shown the door.

[Lupek]

If he's off the book, that is dissapointing because I liked where it was going.

If the book is rebooted/relaunched I am not sure how I feel about that. I am a LoSH neophyte. This was my first Legion book. I very much liked Johns Legion story in Action Comics but we are 40+ issues into the regular Legion title. I'd consider buying more than one Legion book. I just don't want to see the current incarnation wiped away. I dunno.

I'm going to get Legion of 3 Worlds but I hope it's not a jumping off point for me.

[Scott Taylor]

I do like the book, and really enjoy the interactions between the legion members, its very old school. But thats an issue as much as it is a treat. The magazine feels like it was lifted up out of the eighties and dropped into today. Bit of an anamoly. Feels dated, ultimately, even though its enjoyable.

[carabas]

If Shooter i 'booted off' LoSH, that probably means that the Waid-version is going bye-bye and replaced by a more nostalgia-friendly version.

Too bad. Unles they get Johns to write it, of course.

[Cthulhudrew]

Wow. I really hope this isn't true and that Shooter isn't off the book. He's the only reason I'm reading it.

Frankly, if they were to decide to go to a "back to roots" version of the Legion over the Waid version, I still think Shooter would be the ideal to do it, considering his history with the characters.

[Usernamessd]

If by some miracle Didio was fired as EiC Shooter would of been the perfect choice for a replacement.

How much of a crappy state was DC in before Didio?

[Gnarl]

Making people do good quality work never goes outta style. Long as he the work is good and people give a damn....I think Shooter could produce results. Even if he stepped outta the 1980's. His work as EIC shows he maybe a tough guy...but the stories were good.

I've read some of the stuff Shooter wrote about those days. He...its not just that he doesn't get office politics. It came off as he denied the reality of office politics.

That is not functional in a boss. You can get away with it in the army, maybe. If you are a low-level officer. But you will never rise in ranks.

If he was EiC again, you'd need a middle management layer to insulate him from interacting with the talent. And use him as some kind of scary legend.

"Morrison, having Xorn be Magneto doesn't fit with anything. If you don't rewrite it, you may have to visit the old man!"

"N...noooo!!"

And can you imagine him vs. Alan Moore?

[dan bailey]

Making people do good quality work never goes outta style

Maybe ... but "making people do good quality work" on time is totally unheard of anymore & would probably cause a wave of nervous breakdowns across the industry.

[pariah-1972]

LoL i would love to see Shooter reign again !
the drama would be hilarious and he won't be showing any favoritism at all (although DC is nowhere near as bad as Marvel is nowadays yeeeck)
Although this means my hopes of Byrne coming back are probably nill im sure.

Do him and Perez get along ok?

[Shellhead]

He was someone who back in the 80's handed DC their ass and had a run of creative teams that were good. He's a taskmaster....and he'd demand good work. I'd think some would flock to work with him since...well he's a Legend. And saying "Jim Shooter gave me Superman to write..." would be kinda awesome to hear.

Shooter is the guy who drove off a lot of talent from Marvel. Andhe drove me off as a reader. DC was doing amazing stuff at the time, like Crisis on Infinite Earths and the Watchmen. Marvel was doing, uh, Secret Wars and Secret Wars II.

[pariah-1972]

Shooter is the guy who drove off a lot of talent from Marvel. Andhe drove me off as a reader. DC was doing amazing stuff at the time, like Crisis on Infinite Earths and the Watchmen. Marvel was doing, uh, Secret Wars and Secret Wars II.I'm sorry i don't care what anyone says Secret Wars was (and still is) better than Crisis.

[dan bailey]

I'm sorry i don't care what anyone says Secret Wars was (and still is) better than Crisis.

And a heart attack is better than cancer. So?

[rick]

I'm sorry i don't care what anyone says Secret Wars was (and still is) better than Crisis.


Only if you were at the age where you were still buying the toys.

[wheelscribe]

If the book is rebooted/relaunched I am not sure how I feel about that. I am a LoSH neophyte. This was my first Legion book. I very much liked Johns Legion story in Action Comics but we are 40+ issues into the regular Legion title. I'd consider buying more than one Legion book. I just don't want to see the current incarnation wiped away. I dunno.

I'm enjoying Shooter's run, myself. Is the whisperings about Johns taking over the book solely do to his recent Action Comics arc, coupled with Legion of Three Worlds?

Not to be a downer, but I've long given up hoping that my favorite incarnation of the Legion won't be redone in one way or another. It's happened too many times with seemingly little to show for it. The Legion went from being the most consistant continuity to the dodgiest, in terms of how the Legion is defined in the present tense. Sounding like an old man, I've learned to hold on for the ride and enjoy the Legion for what it is.

[brett tolino]

If by some miracle Didio was fired as EiC Shooter would of been the perfect choice for a replacement.

Quoted for genius.

I genuinely believe Jim Shooter is one of the only individuals who could bring a level of respectability and wide spread interest back into DC's line. Right now, outside of Geoff John's and George Perez's Legion, I have no interest in anything DC is doing and no longer buy any of their titles.

I have given Didio's line a chance (four years of a chance), I was patient and sorry, there isn't anything DC is doing that sparks my interest.

[brett tolino]

On a whim, I added Legion to my pull list with the beginning of Shooter's run. I've loved it so far, and have picked up trades and back issues to find out more.

If he's off the book already, I'll be dropping it as well.

Aside from the Johns and Perez mini, if Shooter is off the regular book, so am I.

I would like to say, I don't believe Shooter is to blame for Legion's unimpressive sales. DC's entire line is on a downhill trend and its most likely due to the stink Didio has created around DC as a brand, which is turning many people off in droves.

The most telling aspect of this is that people don't even complain anymore on thread posts. Check out the Didio Emerald City Con threads: barely anyone is posting. That's bad. At least when people complain, it means they care. When no one says anything, it means people are indifferent, meaning they just don't care anymore... and that doesn't bode well for DC.

[Shellhead]

Only if you were at the age where you were still buying the toys.

Heh. Yeah, Mike Zeck's work on Master of Kung Fu was okay, but his ability to draw big groups of costumed superhumans really pales in comparison with that of George Perez. And Zeck's characters often have these really spindly ankles and feet that just don't look right on superheroes. As for the writing, Marv Wolfman is never going to rank up there with Alan Moore, but he delivered some really memorable scenes in Crisis. The heroic deaths of Flash and Supergirl were impressive, and those scenes of entire realities being wiped out were unparalleled at the time.

By comparison the first Secret Wars gave us what? Hulk holding up a mountain? Doom steals power from Galactus? Good stuff potentially, but just not on the same epic level as Crisis at all. And Secret Wars II was just really pathetic. The Beyonder looked like John Oates, and acted like a spoiled child,

I bailed early on Secret Wars II and Marvel in general due to extreme annoyance, and heard that it kept getting worse and worse. I cut my Marvel reading list to nearly zero and spent more on DC, on great comics like Green Arrow (Grell), The Question (Denny O'Neil), Superman and Action Comics (Byrne), Wonder Woman (Perez), The Watchmen (Moore), Swamp Thing (Moore), Doom Patrol (Morrison), Suicide Squad (Ostrander), Sandman (Gaiman) and Justice League (Giffen). Lots of talented creators, and none of them wanted to work for Shooter.

[CBikle]

A couple of thoughts:

1 Although I kind of like Shooter's run so far, it's a little cutesy and I think I'll like John's run much more (too bad we can't get this book co-written by both of them).

2 The days of "sweatshop" -style comics bullpens are done; that style (presumably picked up from Mort Weisinger, his mentor) just doesn't work in this day and age where (good) comics writers have rock-star status and are practically studio moguls.

3 I think Shooter would be very useful as an editorial troubleshooter; jumping on and helping out titles that are in trouble due to tardiness, quality, etc.

Countdown could only have improved with his involvement.

4 I think Jim Shooter is the reason that Chris Claremont and John Byrne are both crazy now. He broke them.

[dan bailey]

A couple of thoughts:

1 4 I think Jim Shooter is the reason that Chris Claremont and John Byrne are both crazy now. He broke them.

I'm not sure Byrne needed any help. I remember him & Dave Sim (who is, of course, completely off the charts these days) coming out of Canadian comics fandom at roughly the same time. I can only assume something horribly mind-altering was in the water up there back then.

[Ontir]

I'm sorry i don't care what anyone says Secret Wars was (and still is) better than Crisis.

No, even with all the problems Crisis had and caused, it's much better than Secret Wars!

[pariah-1972]

Only if you were at the age where you were still buying the toys.I was at the time and i had some of there toys.

[pariah-1972]

No, even with all the problems Crisis had and caused, it's much better than Secret Wars!My issue with Crisis is this 1.it was a bit too big and convoluted towards the end.
2. it screwed up Dc's continuity still to this day !.
3. Dc keeps trying to go back to the well and tell that story over and over again ! i just started reading zero hour (i wasn't reading comics during that period) and its practically a rehash of Crisis with worse art and storytelling
4. it killed of the Multiverse which was one of my favorite things about DC and still is
5. some characters have never been the same sense like Hawkman or Wondergurl.
6. I still find it confusing about who and who doesn't remember the Crisis and what Crisis do they exactly remember (i have asked this question before but its still relevant)
7 It was way overloaded with characters compared to Secret War.

And now the things i liked about Secret War..


8. my favorite thing about Secret War was all the big Marvel heroes were trapped on this crazy planet and where holed up in this crazy huge building.
9. i loved the drama and the interplay between some of the characters like Spider-man fighitng the X-men and surviving.
10. the black symbiote costume was a great idea at the time ( even if they have run it into the ground by know)


i hope im not derailing the thread with this but i felt it needed to be said.:redface:

[shaxper]

Shooter would have been an ideal boss back in the old days of comics where creators took orders and oftentimes appreciated constructive criticism. Now, in the days where we've over-reacted to the poor conditions of creative talents by spoiling them rotten and letting them do pretty much whatever, an editor-in-chief is little more than a carnival barker, making noise and attracting publicity. God knows what the heck regular editors do. They certainly don't demand character consistancy, continuity consistancy, stories that pay off after five or six installments, nor work to be turned in on time. Shooter doesn't belong in the world where the writer and artist are king, and I'm not sure that makes him the one that's wrong.

Back at Valiant, Shooter was an editorial genius. When he found a minor inconsistancy in continuity between an issue of Harbinger and X-O Manowar, he pulled an all-nighter, rewriting the entire problematic script himself. Damn. That's dedication. I think he got a lot of flack for killing Jean Grey and, later, for getting between a rock and a hard place between management and creative talents at Marvel, and no, I don't think the guy has people skills, but damn he knows how to edit a universe. New Universe was a brilliant concept that got sabotaged way before the first title hit print, Valiant was similarly brilliant, and Defiant had tremendous potential. Defiant: Genesis, the promotional bible to the Defiant universe still impresses the heck out of me to this day. It took superhero storytelling to a new level, making the universe as much a character as the heroes.

Shooter's a genius, but he probably wouldn't work out in the EIC chair these days :(

[roach04]

Jim Shooter is the only person who's ever worked in comics that I would work for. He knew it was business, but that good business came from good work. Nowadays you see these "Marvel Fan Guy" taunting "DC Fan Guy" when Marvel has 4-5% lead in the sales charts. In the Shooter days, Marvel had a 3:1 ratio. Books like Alpha Flight were selling 400K and Batman could barely do 150K. The man saved Marvel Comics from financial ruin by getting the rights for GI Joe. Books came out on time, and were all consistent - Spider-Man was Spider-Man in all his own books and every guest appearance. As far as editors go, he is among the best, potentially the best ever.

Without him, Frank Miller doesn't have a job.

In the Crisis vs. Secret Wars, as a pre-Crisis DC reader, my simplified view is this: the only crappy thing we got out of Secret Wars was Secret Wars II. Crisis screwed up the Legion, Donna Troy, Hawkman, and countless others. As mentioned by other posters, if you didn't read Secret Wars when it came out, no worries - it was a great, fun, old-school series of battles. Crisis has become the cornerstone for the entire DC publishing line and it caused more problems than it fixed. I loved both of them - still do! But the only cross-over that ever defined a universe perfectly was Unity...by Jim Shooter!

[Shellhead]

Crisis screwed up... Donna Troy, Hawkman...

Nope. Hawkman was okay right after Crisis. The mistake was allowing Hawkworld to get awkwardly forced into continuity, which happened a few years after Crisis. For that matter, Wonder Girl didn't get messed up until more than a year after the Crisis either, when DC decided to retcon her into being a new character that was just beginning to interact with the DCU.

[Corrina]

Shooter is the fellow who was a fan and wrote letters to DC about the Legion and then scored a job writing Legion at age 14, right?

I've heard all the rumors about him through the years. But I always loved his Legion. A friend of mine interviewed him when he was heading up Valiant and found him pretty damn fascinating--and he didn't even like superhero comics. But he loved how Shooter explained them to him.

[The Shadow]

He has a tendacy to take over and I sense fear at DC. During some conventions last year ...Shooter it seemed to answer more and more questions and discuss DC's storylines. More so than Didio.
Shooter SHOULD take over for Didio. From questions to being the EIC.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Secret Wars I and II came about in 1985-1986 near the end of Shooter's run. If were gonna talk hits ....he did push his creative teams to tell good stories in ...


X-MEN

IRON MAN

AVENGERS

SPIDERMAN

DAREDEVIL


During the time Shooter was at Marvel...these characters had some great stories told under his watch. So maybe he did do some clunkers at the end with Secret Wars and the New Universe. But he also did a lot of good .

[Cthulhudrew]

I'm sorry i don't care what anyone says Secret Wars was (and still is) better than Crisis.

The first Secret Wars was great, I totally am in agreement with you.

[Cthulhudrew]

I would like to say, I don't believe Shooter is to blame for Legion's unimpressive sales.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I thought Shooter's Legion was actually doing better sales than LSH was doing before he came on board? Anyone know?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Shooter is the fellow who was a fan and wrote letters to DC about the Legion and then scored a job writing Legion at age 14, right?

I've heard all the rumors about him through the years. But I always loved his Legion. A friend of mine interviewed him when he was heading up Valiant and found him pretty damn fascinating--and he didn't even like superhero comics. But he loved how Shooter explained them to him.

He was 13 and in a hospital from what was told. And its pretty freakin awesome how he broke in.

[Perry Holley]

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I thought Shooter's Legion was actually doing better sales than LSH was doing before he came on board? Anyone know?Taken from The Beat (http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/05/02/dc-month-to-month-sales-march-2008/):

63 - THE LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES
03/2002: Legion #6 — 24,603*
03/2003: Legion #18 — 23,180
03/2004: Legion #31 — 24,870
03/2005: Legion of SH #4 — 41,756 [43,408]
03/2006: Supergirl & LoSH #16 — 47,426 [54,788]
—————————————
03/2007: –
04/2007: Supergirl & LoSH #28 — 31,525 (+ 0.4%)
04/2007: Supergirl & LoSH #29 — 30,906 (- 2.0%)
05/2007: Supergirl & LoSH #30 — 30,767 (- 0.5%)
06/2007: Supergirl & LoSH #31 — 30,385 (- 1.2%)
07/2007: Supergirl & LoSH #32 — 29,826 (- 1.8%)
08/2007: Supergirl & LoSH #33 — 29,315 (- 1.7%)
09/2007: Supergirl & LoSH #34 — 28,294 (- 3.5%)
10/2007: Supergirl & LoSH #35 — 27,370 (- 3.3%)
11/2007: Supergirl & LoSH #36 — 26,814 (- 2.0%)
12/2007: Legion of SH #37 — 45,803 (+70.8%)
01/2008: Legion of SH #38 — 33,045 (-27.9%)
02/2008: Legion of SH #39 — 31,123 (- 5.8%)
03/2008: Legion of SH #40 — 30,377 (- 2.4%)
—————-
6 months: + 7.4%
1 year : n.a.
2 years : -36.0%
5 years : +31.1%

After the bizarre boost for issue #37, the numbers are now back where the previous regular creative team left off. It looks like retailers really went overboard with their orders for writer Jim Shooter’s debut issue.

[DeadXMan]

A couple of thoughts:

1 Although I kind of like Shooter's run so far, it's a little cutesy and I think I'll like John's run much more (too bad we can't get this book co-written by both of them).

2 The days of "sweatshop" -style comics bullpens are done; that style (presumably picked up from Mort Weisinger, his mentor) just doesn't work in this day and age where (good) comics writers have rock-star status and are practically studio moguls.

3 I think Shooter would be very useful as an editorial troubleshooter; jumping on and helping out titles that are in trouble due to tardiness, quality, etc.

Countdown could only have improved with his involvement.

4 I think Jim Shooter is the reason that Chris Claremont and John Byrne are both crazy now. He broke them.

2. Jim shooter has done more for artists and writers to get royalties from thire ceations then anyone befor or after him.


4. no, it was DeFalco and Harras

[TROUBLEZ]

I started buying comics when Secret Wars II came out. I liked it. But I was a kid and buying the toys, so yeah.

That's too bad about Shooter off Legion if it's true. That was the one DC comic I was still picking up.
I think his writing style IS a little dated, but he packs alot of story into an issue, and it's a very good comic in my opinion. The light art style also matches the writing.

Hasn't Shooter been out of the comics business for awhile? If he has, too much time has passed, things are different, and I'm sure his professional, aggresive take-care-of-business attitude would scare most of the talent from DC into Marvel's arms. But I think, from the comics I read, he was a great EiC. All the changes he did with Thor, Spiderman and Iron Man were good stories, and yet he kept sales up as well. But I wish someone with his professionalism and thinking would put DC back on track. I'm sure he would have said no to the Xorn/Magneto thing. Xorn was cool enough NOT to be Magneto. And killing him off was stupid. When Claremont "kills" Magneto there's always a possibility he can come back. Not so with Morrison.

So DC had the better stories at the time, but Marvel had much better sales?

[pariah-1972]

I started buying comics when Secret Wars II came out. I liked it. But I was a kid and buying the toys, so yeah.

That's too bad about Shooter off Legion if it's true. That was the one DC comic I was still picking up.
I think his writing style IS a little dated, but he packs alot of story into an issue, and it's a very good comic in my opinion. The light art style also matches the writing.

Hasn't Shooter been out of the comics business for awhile? If he has, too much time has passed, things are different, and I'm sure his professional, aggresive take-care-of-business attitude would scare most of the talent from DC into Marvel's arms. But I think, from the comics I read, he was a great EiC. All the changes he did with Thor, Spiderman and Iron Man were good stories, and yet he kept sales up as well. But I wish someone with his professionalism and thinking would put DC back on track. I'm sure he would have said no to the Xorn/Magneto thing. Xorn was cool enough NOT to be Magneto. And killing him off was stupid. When Claremont "kills" Magneto there's always a possibility he can come back. Not so with Morrison.

So DC had the better stories at the time, but Marvel had much better sales?I kind of liked MOST of Secret Wars 2:redface:
it was fascinating to see how all these people would act around someone of godlike status who wasn't bad or good.

but of course the stories usually ended up being Marvel so and so attacks Beyonder and Beyonder gets upset and teleports away.

[DDM]

There's no way DC would hire Shooter to be EiC. While he's a pretty talented guy, he also has a history of not getting along with others - something that's not going to go over well these days, when wooing top creative teams is one of the EiC's main responsibilities.

Jim Shooter does not kiss a$$ to fellow creators; in other words, he tells them like it is. To many creators today are pampered like babies--particularly Hollweird writers who think writing comics is a hobby instead of a profession...

Marvel & DC needs another Jim Shooter to shake out the cobwebs & remove all of the dead wood to get rid of all the BS & office politics.

[david r]

If Jim Shooter is already off LEGION, I'm horribly disappointed.

[Ryan Day]

Jim Shooter does not kiss a$$ to fellow creators; in other words, he tells them like it is. To many creators today are pampered like babies--particularly Hollweird writers who think writing comics is a hobby instead of a profession...

Nice idea, but it ignores the realities of the industry. Books are far more creator-driven than they were 20 years ago, and those creators have far more work alternatives now. That means a big part of an EiC's job is, in fact, kissing creators' ass, or at least making sure the people who sell your books are happy. While Marvel & DC could certainly use someone with even a small bit of common sense to help them with their schedule, marching in and setting rules like a hardcore hall monitor is going to accomplish little more than helping the competition with their recruitment.

[roach04]

He was 13 and in a hospital from what was told. And its pretty freakin awesome how he broke in.

I'd have to dig, b/c I can't remember what issue - but either X-Men #13 or X-Men #17 has a great letter from "Jimmy Shooter, Pittsburgh PA". He was definitely a part-time letter hack as a very young man. His Legion pitch was essentially to make the Legion more like a Marvel book! The greatest "Shooter on the Legion" story is that he actually left comics for 4 years and went into advertising (I think he'd finished high school!!) b/c of a fight with Mort Weisinger. Two or three guys from the Legion Outpost tracked him down at his house and convinced him to return. Man, Shooter rules.

The other point worth noting - every single interview with Paul Levitz about his time on the Legion has Levitz more or less say "To write the Legion, you have to love the Legion, and I love the Legion. The only person who loves the Legion more than I do is Jim Shooter." These men were in direct competition from the late 1970s until the late 1980s but the mutual respect is still there. I think we can all agree the reason Shooter is back on the book - Paul Levitz told everyone Shooter was the new writer. Politics or no, Levitz is still the big dog at DC. I can't believe that some idiotic grumblings from lesser talents would have Paul remove him. I don't know - maybe Rich could find out - but I'd guess the only guy who could fire Shooter would be Levitz.

[pariah-1972]

I hate to tell you guys but a lot of the big guns at DC are under exclusive contract and can't go anywhere.

[Shellhead]

Secret Wars I and II came about in 1985-1986 near the end of Shooter's run. If were gonna talk hits ....he did push his creative teams to tell good stories in ...


X-MEN

IRON MAN

AVENGERS

SPIDERMAN

DAREDEVIL


During the time Shooter was at Marvel...these characters had some great stories told under his watch. So maybe he did do some clunkers at the end with Secret Wars and the New Universe. But he also did a lot of good .

I don't think it's reasonable to give Shooter credit for the great Claremont/Byrne run on X-Men, or for Miller's outstanding work on Daredevil. I think Shooter just had the sense to stay out of their way. Probably the same with the Michelinie/Layton run on Iron Man. Avengers is an interesting case. I am a huge Avengers fan, and I thought that Shooter's first run as an Avengers writer was one of the best. But his second run on the Avengers less than two years later was awful. He reduced Tigra from tough ex-Chicago cop to lame pinup girl, and he turned Hank Pym into a wife-beater. Sad, sad stuff.

[DeadXMan]

He had a huge impact on CC and DPS.
and he put Frank on DD.
so yes I do give him credit

[mswood]

Well I miss the much tighter influence that editors (and EIC) had over the overall tone and internal characters, I also enjoy the larger latitude for experimentation.

As for the current Legion with Shooter it was fine (a problem with many of its incarnations), but it never stood out.

As to the secret wars vs crisis. Secret wars was mindless that I gave up on Marvel for years. It was utter crap.

Crisis (though with dialogue that doesn't hold up to this day) is in my opinion 1000 times a superior work. While I might be mad at DC for how they handled things immediately after issue 12. I can't blame the series itself for the missteps the company made afterwards.

[carabas]

And killing him off was stupid. When Claremont "kills" Magneto there's always a possibility he can come back. Not so with Morrison.Didn't he come back, like, two frelling months later? Magicked back to life by Scarlet witch, according to House Of M.

So DC had the better stories at the time, but Marvel had much better sales?Pretty much. In comics (and in any medium really), sales are usually reverse proportional to quality.

Jim Shooter does not kiss a$$ to fellow creators; in other words, he tells them like it is. To many creators today are pampered like babies--particularly Hollweird writers who think writing comics is a hobby instead of a profession...

Marvel & DC needs another Jim Shooter to shake out the cobwebs & remove all of the dead wood to get rid of all the BS & office politics.And when Bendis, JMS, Brubaker, Morrison Johns, Ennis, Ellis, Miller, Millar, Whedon and the others get enough of this dinosaur editor and go independant, watch DC and Marvel sales drop like a brick. I imagine a new Image, this time with great writing instead of kewl art.

[Ontir]

And when Bendis, JMS, Brubaker, Morrison Johns, Ennis, Ellis, Miller, Millar, Whedon and the others get enough of this dinosaur editor and go independant, watch DC and Marvel sales drop like a brick. I imagine a new Image, this time with great writing instead of kewl art.

Not gonna happen. The Image crew was able to do what they did, because they happened to be at the right specific moment when it was really possible. The marketplace won't allow for an indie to start up, at least not at the Image level right now, maybe ever again.

[CBikle]

I hate to tell you guys but a lot of the big guns at DC are under exclusive contract and can't go anywhere.

The risk there, is that the big guns will react poorly to drill sergeant tactics and just put out sub-par work until their contact runs out and jump ship to the competition when it finally does.

I think sometimes both companies need a Jim Shooter to occasionally come in and crack the whip on a title that's in trouble (Countdown), but if they tell him to go "F" himself, what's he going to do ?

[pariah-1972]

The risk there, is that the big guns will react poorly to drill sergeant tactics and just put out sub-par work until their contact runs out and jump ship to the competition when it finally does.

I think sometimes both companies need a Jim Shooter to occasionally come in and crack the whip on a title that's in trouble (Countdown), but if they tell him to go "F" himself, what's he going to do ?But if they put out sub-par work there "profile" in the industry might get damaged (unless you are Jeph loeb apparently)

[carabas]

Not gonna happen. The Image crew was able to do what they did, because they happened to be at the right specific moment when it was really possible. The marketplace won't allow for an indie to start up, at least not at the Image level right now, maybe ever again.Definitely not early-Image level, but if Bendis, Brubaker Morrison... say bye-bye to corporate comics, Marvel and DC will take a really big hit, and whatever if they do get together and found Image 2.0, it'll not set the charts on fire, but at least be viable, even in today's market.

[carabas]

The risk there, is that the big guns will react poorly to drill sergeant tactics and just put out sub-par work until their contact runs out and jump ship to the competition when it finally does.Or alternatively, they'll pull out that contract, point to clauses 4, 16 an 43c, and tell the drill sergeant-editor that they'll take on lump, and no cream in their thee.

[Ontir]

Definitely not early-Image level, but if Bendis, Brubaker Morrison... say bye-bye to corporate comics, Marvel and DC will take a really big hit, and whatever if they do get together and found Image 2.0, it'll not set the charts on fire, but at least be viable, even in today's market.

I don't think so. First, the start-up costs are prohibitive. Then, you have to remember that these guys are used to making a certain amount of money, and aren't likely to give themselves huge pay cuts. Byrne had a nice little gig going over at Darkhorse with Next Men, Babe, and Danger Unlimited, but he killed the line, because he wasn't making as much money as he would be at the big 2.

Then, there's the issue of getting the books sold. Fighting for space on retailers shelves and the few racks available is an uphill battle, even for DC and Marvel. Go into any store that has a rack, and you don't see a representation of their line (with the exception of Virgin Comics, which has a rack that features all of their books, in every Virgin Mega-Store - the ones that are left), and aside from Superman, Batman, X-Men, Spider-Man, and Star Wars, very few comics get regular representation. In fact, it's rare that the same series of Spider-Man, etc. can be found month to month. You get "Amazing" this month, "Spectacular" the next.

It would be easier for those guys to forgo comics and move into TV, film, and/or webisodes. More lucrative too.

[TROUBLEZ]

Didn't he come back, like, two frelling months later? Magicked back to life by Scarlet witch, according to House Of M.

Pretty much. In comics (and in any medium really), sales are usually reverse proportional to quality.

And when Bendis, JMS, Brubaker, Morrison Johns, Ennis, Ellis, Miller, Millar, Whedon and the others get enough of this dinosaur editor and go independant, watch DC and Marvel sales drop like a brick. I imagine a new Image, this time with great writing instead of kewl art.


I mean when Claremont killed him off in X-Men 1-3 with Jim Lee on the book. I like Morrison but having Magneto decapitated kind of ruins it for future writers. Not that it stopped Claremont himself ( i think) from bringing him back.

[Guru_Pitka]

He got results. When was the last time he had a successful venture? The early days of Valiant in the nineties - when he got booted from the company after a year or so. He followed that up with Defiant, which pretty much flopped.

The industry is radically different than it was when he was at Marvel. I don't think his style would be nearly so successful now.


Good sir, I must take issue with your claim that Defiant flopped.

I cannot argue that it did not survive, but it was the target of a lawsuit from its very origins. Plasm, the flagship title of Defiant, was claimed to be too close to Marvel's Plasmer. Defiant won the battle, but the lawsuit succeeded in crippling the new company.

So it is my particular impression that Defiant was victim of spite.

Legion of 3 Worlds will be THE most monumental Legion publication. But Mr. Shooter is not writing it, and that might have been enough to convince him his future lies elsewhere.

[carabas]

I mean when Claremont killed him off in X-Men 1-3 with Jim Lee on the book. I like Morrison but having Magneto decapitated kind of ruins it for future writers.How so? He was fine and dandy two months after he was decapitated, claiming it had been an imposter. The the whatever it was that did get it's head cut off also came back to life.

I don't think so. First, the start-up costs are prohibitive. Then, you have to remember that these guys are used to making a certain amount of money, and aren't likely to give themselves huge pay cuts.In the long run they'mm probably mak more money.
Millar got lot more money off Wanted than he did off Civil War (accordin to him anyway). Apparently, a cut of a sucesful creator-owned book (and it doesn't seem to take as many sales for those to be successful as would a Marvel/DC book) is a lot better than any page rate.


Byrne had a nice little gig going over at Darkhorse with Next Men, Babe, and Danger Unlimited, but he killed the line, because he wasn't making as much money as he would be at the big 2.Byrne's an idiot with an overgrown ego. He wasn't selling as much copies as he was used to, but if he'd stuck with it and finished Next Men (probably the last thing he did before losing his skills), the trades would probably still be making him money today.

Then, there's the issue of getting the books sold. Fighting for space on retailers shelves and the few racks available is an uphill battle, even for DC and Marvel.True. They could of course publish through Image or Dark Horse. And it's not as if we're talking about some nobodies without name recognition here.

[brett tolino]

Nice idea, but it ignores the realities of the industry. Books are far more creator-driven than they were 20 years ago, and those creators have far more work alternatives now. That means a big part of an EiC's job is, in fact, kissing creators' ass, or at least making sure the people who sell your books are happy..

Well then, if that's the case, I don't know what Didio had on his lips when he was kissing all that creator @ss for the past few years.

Most of them didn't deliver and those that did, did so by producing some of the worst comics in the industry's entire history.

Not that much of their line reads any better now...

[David O Burcham]

Shooter would never succeed in this day and age as an EIC. Shooter made sure that even the grittiest of super-hero comics (Daredevil) was accessible for ALL ages.... the NERVE!

In today's market, there has to be watered-down versions of super-heroes like Spider-Man and The Avengers for the kiddies... that way the REGULAR super-hero titles can have more sex and violence for us 30-somethings so we won't feel so insecure with our hobby that we have to justify super-hero funnybooks as "graphic literature" or "sequential art" to people who catch us reading them... stoopid kids trying to read OUR sooper-heroz!

In these times, comic book companies crap their pants with excitement when a title breaks 100,000 in sales. In Shooter's day, a title was axed for dipping under the 100,000 mark... what an out-of-touch DINOSAUR!

People like Shooter just need to stick to creative jobs and stay far, far away from modern positions of editorial power, dagnabbit!






On topic speculation.... wasn't Shooter initially going to be brought in to write a "Last" Legion story as an Elseworlds or some such? Maybe with all the Final Crisis hoopla, he was given the regular title to tell that story as a transition for John's Legion.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Of course whatever ass Didio kissed to get Grant Morrison he kissed it well. In fact lets look at Grant's performance level thus far.


A. Launches a stream of C-Level characters to moderate sales succes with his 7 Soldiers of Victory projects. The most sales on those books were in the 40,000 range ! For characters like Shining Knight and Klarion the Witch Boy !

B. He did projects at Vertigo like Seaguy and WE3 ...which sold on the strength of his name alone.

C. His mainstream work on 52* PRETTY much gave the company its 1st hit weekly series and did well for DC to keep doing the weekly experimint and Marvel to follow suit. (Marvels attempt is a slow failure....on a A-List book weirdly...)

D. He's been placed on Batman and DC's banking on him in Final Crisis.



Now thats one of the guys Didio signed. Is he a waste of time ? No... he's doing his job at DC and sellin comics...

[Ryan Day]

In these times, comic book companies crap their pants with excitement when a title breaks 100,000 in sales. In Shooter's day, a title was axed for dipping under the 100,000 mark... what an out-of-touch DINOSAUR!

In Shooter's day, Shooter and his contemporaries were moving comics out of corner stores and into specialty shops, which is one of the reasons they don't sell nearly as well nowadays.

[Deathstroke]

He probably proposed a story arc where nobody died and Didio didn't like it. :wink:

Either that or they wanted him to write a Saturn Girl rape scene and he told them to shove it up their ass.

[DonEMC]

Nice idea, but it ignores the realities of the industry. Books are far more creator-driven than they were 20 years ago, and those creators have far more work alternatives now. That means a big part of an EiC's job is, in fact, kissing creators' ass, or at least making sure the people who sell your books are happy. While Marvel & DC could certainly use someone with even a small bit of common sense to help them with their schedule, marching in and setting rules like a hardcore hall monitor is going to accomplish little more than helping the competition with their recruitment.

Looking at it from another perspective: Shooter at Marvel during the mid-1980s was like a college basketball coach. He had total control of the team, each person under his control were part of the team and they ran the plays he wrote up.
Nowadays, though, editors are like NBA coaches, where the talent is higher-paid and knows that they are more important to the overall marketing and sales than the coach is, which makes it tough for the coach to have college-like control over his players. Today's coaches are baby-sitters for the more well-known, money making talent.
I don't think that would set well with Shooter, who was known as sort of a taskmaster (who did a good job at Marvel and at VALIANT, but would have a tough time dealing with today's group of creators).
DonEMC

[roach04]

Shooter would never succeed in this day and age as an EIC. Shooter made sure that even the grittiest of super-hero comics (Daredevil) was accessible for ALL ages.... the NERVE!

Well said. He was old school in that regard. Too bad those days are gone. Man, I know Marvel is too far gone to be saved by Shooter, but if he could get Valiant back. Sigh.

[roach04]

In Shooter's day, Shooter and his contemporaries were moving comics out of corner stores and into specialty shops, which is one of the reasons they don't sell nearly as well nowadays.

You have to understand the time period and the market conditions. In the late 1970s, the comic business was on its death bed - that's why in my earlier post I said Shooter saved Marvel with GI Joe. That's a bit of an overstatement (he'd already saved it by then -- GI Joe just loaded the coffers up. It was the only book to beat and stay with X-Men on the sales charts), but the Direct Market had the same original intent. Comics were no longer viable as an industry on the newstand and Shooter, Jeannette and co. had no choice but to come up with a saviour. The Direct Market was deemed to be it. One of the best (and most prophetic) editorials you'll find was by Denny O'Neil in the back of Moon Knight #38 (part of Marvel's original "Direct Market only" books) where he said the book was being cancelled due to poor sales when it was likely that a great many possible sales were lost b/c the book could only be found at specialty shops. The Direct Market, like many comic business decisions, was a short term fix that caused many long term problems.

I've never read an Ultimate book, but when Bill Jemas created "Ultimate Marvel" I remember the sales pitch being that they would be kid-friendly, easy to read, not continuity heavy -- has that happened? Whether it did or not, the short term sees Marvel back on top, making record profits, which is all that really matters to a guy doing a Jemas or Shooter job. (I'm not sure what Joe Quesada does, but it ain't what Shooter did!!!)

[TROUBLEZ]

In today's market, there has to be watered-down versions of super-heroes like Spider-Man and The Avengers for the kiddies... that way the REGULAR super-hero titles can have more sex and violence for us 30-somethings so we won't feel so insecure with our hobby that we have to justify super-hero funnybooks as "graphic literature" or "sequential art" to people who catch us reading them... stoopid kids trying to read OUR sooper-heroz!

.

My thoughts exactly!

[TROUBLEZ]

How so? He was fine and dandy two months after he was decapitated, claiming it had been an imposter. The the whatever it was that did get it's head cut off also came back to life.

.

Because his intention was that Magneto should stay dead, and that was him. The next writer, once Morrison left, retconned it that it was an imposter.

It's all comics, so people coming back to life is no big deal or surprise, but it seems like some of these writers want to do THEIR story, regardless of continuity or future stories just to make their run or story arc as a possible classic. For example Identity Crisis, The Killing Joke (but maybe Moore thought it was going to be an imaginary story), alot of Infinitie Crisis.

Atleast with Jean Grey they waited awhile before retconning her and resurecting her.

[saintsaucey]

I for one will be glad when shooter leaves the legion. I picked up his first arc because everyone treated his return like the second coming. Frankly it sucked. gimme Bedard back or Geof I liked both their stories. Not Shooters

[Ontir]

Given how bad the book was before Shooter arrived, I was eager to see what he'd do with the book on a 3rd go-round. I've enjoyed what he's done, but clearly sales haven't sky-rocketed, which I think was the hope. Of course had we not gotten the "Shooter's back, wait... no, it's going to be Johns, no... it IS Shooter after all," right at the time that Johns' run in Action was beginning, then people might not have been comparing the two so much.

At this point it's essentially Hillary/Obama: I'll be happy with whichever does the job!

[Ryan Day]

You have to understand the time period and the market conditions.

Oh, I do, for the most part. You can't compare now to then, any more than you could compare the eighties to the sixties. But that's just it, I think - you can't assume Shooter would be a successful EiC now just because he was 25 years ago. The industry is totally different, and so is the job of EiC. Very seldom can you just go back to the way things used to be - that almost never works. It's like bands that broke up 20 years ago having reunion tours - it's just kind of sad and nostalgic.

[Ryan Day]

I don't think so. First, the start-up costs are prohibitive. Then, you have to remember that these guys are used to making a certain amount of money, and aren't likely to give themselves huge pay cuts. Byrne had a nice little gig going over at Darkhorse with Next Men, Babe, and Danger Unlimited, but he killed the line, because he wasn't making as much money as he would be at the big 2.

I'm not sure using John Byrne as an example is ever a good idea. :smile:

Seriously, though, Mike Mignola started up Hellboy at the same time, and when was the last time he worked for DC or Marvel?

Several creators, like Warren Ellis and Brian Vaughn, have said they make more money from their creator owned books than they do from the corporate superheroes. It's a bit riskier, but the reward is definitely there.

And, as you say, many of the top creators have movie and TV options that weren't around when Shooter was at Marvel. Adi Granov was a design consultant on Iron Man - what can a comic book editor threaten him with?

[Ontir]

Citing Byrne is a particularly good idea in this discussion. He was huge when he began those books @ Darkhorse. What's more, he had something going with Mignola and Miller called the Legend imprint, under which all 3 had books published. Miller and Mignola continue(d) their books after Byrne left, but he said he couldn't make the kind of money he needed to make. If Byrne couldn't do it, there's not much chance that many others can even do as well as he did, let alone better. He also hasn't sought/been offered the kind of film deals that the other two have now received. That helps them out a great deal.

[Ryan Day]

Citing Byrne is a particularly good idea in this discussion. He was huge when he began those books @ Darkhorse. What's more, he had something going with Mignola and Miller called the Legend imprint, under which all 3 had books published. Miller and Mignola continue(d) their books after Byrne left, but he said he couldn't make the kind of money he needed to make.

But that's just it. Miller kept doing his creator-owned projects. So did Mignola. So did Mike Allred and Paul Chadwick, who were also at Legend. (though I don't know what's happened to Chadwick in recent years) Matt Wagner kept doing Grendel at Dark Horse, too.

Really, it seems like Byrne's the only guy who couldn't make it work.

[carabas]

Citing Byrne is a particularly good idea in this discussion. He was huge when he began those books @ Darkhorse. What's more, he had something going with Mignola and Miller called the Legend imprint, under which all 3 had books published. Miller and Mignola continue(d) their books after Byrne left, but he said he couldn't make the kind of money he needed to make.Byrne was mistaken. In retrospect it is obvious that if he had stuck with it, he'd have made far more money than in any other period of his carreer.
But he was short-sighted, saw lower monthly sales, and bailed out. End of story.

[carabas]

Because his intention was that Magneto should stay dead, and that was him. The next writer, once Morrison left, retconned it that it was an imposter.This is simply untrue.

http://www.popthought.com/display_column.asp?DAID=861
Still...I can't believe the hellish gymnastics they went through to 'explain' plotlines which were already explained quite simply by the stories I wrote and wrapped up. Here's how to explain what happened - XORN was NEVER REAL, he was a DISGUISE for MAGNETO who went MAD ON DRUGS and DIED...but we know he always COMES BACK, somehow, so expect a dramatic return sooner or later, True Believers!

It's all comics, so people coming back to life is no big deal or surprise, but it seems like some of these writers want to do THEIR story, regardless of continuity or future stories just to make their run or story arc as a possible classic.Why is it okay for Claremont to kill Magneto, but not for Morrison?

Atleast with Jean Grey they waited awhile before retconning her and resurecting her.The writers didn't really have a lot to do with any of that. She was brought back by editorial decree. I suppose that's fair since she was killed by editorial decree as well.

[Ontir]

But that's just it. Miller kept doing his creator-owned projects. So did Mignola. So did Mike Allred and Paul Chadwick, who were also at Legend. (though I don't know what's happened to Chadwick in recent years) Matt Wagner kept doing Grendel at Dark Horse, too.

Really, it seems like Byrne's the only guy who couldn't make it work.

And with the possible exception of Miller, who among that list was making the kind of money that Byrne was making at DC and/or Marvel? I don't recall the figures he listed now, but it was a significant pay cut, one that he couldn't afford, so he left. As to the assertion that he'd have come out ahead, had he continued, based upon what? Yes, others continued, but the two that have arguably made the most money didn't do so, based upon sales of comics alone. It was the animation/film franchises that brought them the big bucks.

Another "Image" isn't possible today. Not in terms of printed, 22 page comics. There just isn't room in the dwindling marketplace.

[DeadXMan]

Because his intention was that Magneto should stay dead, and that was him. The next writer, once Morrison left, retconned it that it was an imposter.

It's all comics, so people coming back to life is no big deal or surprise, but it seems like some of these writers want to do THEIR story, regardless of continuity or future stories just to make their run or story arc as a possible classic. For example Identity Crisis, The Killing Joke (but maybe Moore thought it was going to be an imaginary story), alot of Infinitie Crisis.

Atleast with Jean Grey they waited awhile before retconning her and resurecting her.

thank Kirby they did. Morrison wrote a horrible magneto

[carabas]

John Byrne's creator-owned work... Let's go right to the source.

http://www.byrnerobotics.com/FAQ/listing.asp?ID=2&T1=Questions+about+Comic+Book+Projects#150

On Danger Unlimited:
JB: DANGER UNLIMITED died because a lot of retailers slashed their orders on the second and third issues, long before the first issue had even shipped, making it impossible for many who actually bought the first to find the second and third.

Impossible to build a readership that way -- and no guarantees that kind of suicidal approach would not be applied if I brought the series back.

On Nextmen:
JB: I set NEXT MEN aside fully intending to return to the series in no than six months. That was about six years ago. What I did not count on was the virtual collapse of the whole comic book industry, which seemed to occur at just the time I put NEXT MEN on the shelf. Mea culpa? In the present, very depressed marketplace, I don't feel NEXT MEN would have much chance, so I leave the book hibernating until such time as the market improves

So in both cases he decided to throw in the towel prematurely, not understanding that that sort of work needs time to build an audience. With Next Men, he didn't even bother trying.

[roach04]

Oh, I do, for the most part. You can't compare now to then, any more than you could compare the eighties to the sixties. But that's just it, I think - you can't assume Shooter would be a successful EiC now just because he was 25 years ago. The industry is totally different, and so is the job of EiC. Very seldom can you just go back to the way things used to be - that almost never works. It's like bands that broke up 20 years ago having reunion tours - it's just kind of sad and nostalgic.

I agree, yes. But, we can dream! LOL.

[roach04]

So in both cases he decided to throw in the towel prematurely, not understanding that that sort of work needs time to build an audience. With Next Men, he didn't even bother trying.

I agree with this too - very sad. The difference between Miller and Byrne was that Miller had never made the type of comic money Byrne did. He said Dark Knight made him more that Bill Finger and Dick Sprang had made in their careers but that was probably still only 6 months of Byrne's income when he has writing/drawing 2 books a month in the early 80s. That's why it bothers me when I see specifically John Byrne and Chris Claremont complaining about Shooter b/c he was the guy that put the royalty system in place. A system that allowed Chris Claremont to have a private plane. A system that has allowed John Byrne to live in a mansion in Connecticut. Why are guys like George Perez and Keith Giffen not living in mansions? Because being the artist on DC's best selling books had nowhere near the compensation of being the artist on Marvel's best selling books. DC had the royalty payments, but not the sales.

BTW - I loved Next Men. I thought it was Byrne's best work since FF at the time and still do. Really wish he'd kept it going.

And, the main reason that folks like Warren Ellis make more off their creator-owned stuff is that none of the mainstream superhero books sell well enough anymore to garner them royalty money. It's funny to see things like CBR's Top 100 runs and realize that a guy like Larry Hama would've had more sales to his name between 1982-1992 than Grant Morrison has had in his whole career.

[carabas]

On Danger Unlimited:
JB: DANGER UNLIMITED died because a lot of retailers slashed their orders on the second and third issues, long before the first issue had even shipped, making it impossible for many who actually bought the first to find the second and third.

Impossible to build a readership that way -- and no guarantees that kind of suicidal approach would not be applied if I brought the series back.
By the way, isn't this what happens to pretty much each and every single book that is launched?

[Ontir]

Again, you're bolstering my point.

If John Byrne can't get his books onto stands, especially while he was doing Next men and Babe, I don't hold out too much possibility for the sort of start-up you favour.

The market just won't bare it.

[carabas]

Are you even reading his?
With Danger Unlimited, he saw there was a second and third issue drop-off (like there is with pretty much every single comics series there is) and called it quits.

And with Next Men, sales were good, but after a six month hiatus he decided that the market had changed so badly - in his opinion - that he didn't even try anymore.

As for Babe, I find no reference to a series called Babe.

[DeadXMan]

Why is it okay for Claremont to kill Magneto, but not for Morrison?
.

cause CC mags died with dignity. not on his knees like morrison did.

[Shellhead]

Again, you're bolstering my point.

If John Byrne can't get his books onto stands, especially while he was doing Next men and Babe, I don't hold out too much possibility for the sort of start-up you favour.

The market just won't bare it.

Ever heard of Hellboy? Byrne left early on, but Mignola is doing just fine without Byrne. Successful, critically-acclaimed, with a second live-action movie coming out later this year. Byrne's skill and reputation has been fading for years and years, so he is not exactly a good gauge of the industry these days.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

True. They could of course publish through Image or Dark Horse. And it's not as if we're talking about some nobodies without name recognition here.

Brubaker is struggling to sell Criminal, and it's published by Marvel.

Ellis has said he needs to do Marvel books to get fans to pick up his creator owned stuff.

Morrison has shown next to know interest in not working for the 'big two' since he made it big in the states.

These guys need Marvel and DC possibly more than Marvel and DC need them, so if an editor like Shooter started cracking the whip, where are they going to run to?

The other company?
Maybe.
But wouldn't that company get wise to the fact that the other company is cracking the whip and putting out a more consistent and regular product?
A regurarly shipping mid-level selling book (or even low) will end up making more money than a high selling book that ships late.

And unless they all get their first works optioned off by Hollywood straight away, like Millar did with Wanted, then there's not really all that much money without a a hit, and that's not certain from any of them.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

B. He did projects at Vertigo like Seaguy and WE3 ...which sold on the strength of his name alone.


Sea Guy didn't sell at all.
There's only going to be a sequel as a contract sweetener for Morrison.
We3 was the only one that sold a significant amount out of the creator owned books he launched then.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I don't think that would set well with Shooter, who was known as sort of a taskmaster (who did a good job at Marvel and at VALIANT, but would have a tough time dealing with today's group of creators).
DonEMC

As opposed to when he first became head man at Marvel and had Steve Gerber and Don McGregor as writers?
Or when all the editors were also writers?

If he could deal with them, and get the company more successful, why do you think todays writers would be any different?

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

The industry is totally different, and so is the job of EiC. Very seldom can you just go back to the way things used to be - that almost never works. It's like bands that broke up 20 years ago having reunion tours - it's just kind of sad and nostalgic.

That works with your analogy, but your analogy doesn't work with business, and it runs off of the assumption that he'd try and do it all exactly the same.

I think he made for a damn fine EIC, but that said, I'm not part of some sort of Church of Shooter, I just can't see any arguments for him being out of date that don't have giant holes in them.

[Ontir]

Ever heard of Hellboy? Byrne left early on, but Mignola is doing just fine without Byrne. Successful, critically-acclaimed, with a second live-action movie coming out later this year. Byrne's skill and reputation has been fading for years and years, so he is not exactly a good gauge of the industry these days.

Yes, I've heard of Hellboy, and we've been discussing it. Mignola stayed on, and got animation and film deals, which made more money for him than the comic. Byrne didn't have, didn't get, or didn't seek out any of those, and he said that he wasn't making enough money to continue, so he packed up, closed shop, and went back to DC and Marvel. When he did that, he was still in pretty good shape in reputation and standing with the industry. It was after that, after his runs on JK4W, and Wonder Woman, as well as his "Lost Heroes" for Marvel, whatever that was called, X-Men: the Hidden Years, and Labrats that his rep began to sink.

[Ontir]

Are you even reading his?
With Danger Unlimited, he saw there was a second and third issue drop-off (like there is with pretty much every single comics series there is) and called it quits.

And with Next Men, sales were good, but after a six month hiatus he decided that the market had changed so badly - in his opinion - that he didn't even try anymore.

As for Babe, I find no reference to a series called Babe.

Too bad, Babe was basically his continuation of "She-Hulk," with Rowan Atkinson as a sidekick. It was a hoot.

Once again, everything you're saying supports what I said originally. The marketplace wasn't supporting him at a financial level where he felt he could continue, so he went back to the big 2. What's confusing about this?

[pariah-1972]

Brubaker is struggling to sell Criminal, and it's published by Marvel.

Ellis has said he needs to do Marvel books to get fans to pick up his creator owned stuff.

Morrison has shown next to know interest in not working for the 'big two' since he made it big in the states.

These guys need Marvel and DC possibly more than Marvel and DC need them, so if an editor like Shooter started cracking the whip, where are they going to run to?

The other company?
Maybe.
But wouldn't that company get wise to the fact that the other company is cracking the whip and putting out a more consistent and regular product?
A regurarly shipping mid-level selling book (or even low) will end up making more money than a high selling book that ships late.

And unless they all get their first works optioned off by Hollywood straight away, like Millar did with Wanted, then there's not really all that much money without a a hit, and that's not certain from any of them.Unfortunately we have lot of "hollywood" writers who aren't dependant on selling comic books to make a living.

[Ontir]

That's true. Comics don't pay as much. They do them for fun, while making their real living in film and TV.

[CBikle]

Unfortunately we have lot of "hollywood" writers who aren't dependant on selling comic books to make a living.

To be honest, I think that's been good for comics, because, at the very least, those Hollywood guys are writing the books for fun, to be creative and because they're fans of the medium and/or the characters.

Too many of the professional comic book writers treated it as a "day job" and you got boring and passionless stories out of them.

[TROUBLEZ]

This is simply untrue.

http://www.popthought.com/display_column.asp?DAID=861


Why is it okay for Claremont to kill Magneto, but not for Morrison?


The issue I'm referring to where Claremont "kills" Magneto is in X-Men 3. Magneto, distraught and broken by his misguidedness seals off Professor X and the X-Men from the disintegrating or burning up, Astroid M, and is last seen on the Astroid, then it burns up or blows up. So you don't ACTUALLY see him die. It leaves something open.

Same with Morrison. I didn't mind that Magneto "died" when the Sentinel blew up Genosha. You didn't see him actually die, but it looks like it. It made a great death but then again, if you brought him back, you wouldn't need to use heavy retconning. I thought it made for a great scene, and didn't mind he brought him back (except, however, I wish Xorn had been a new character rather than a disguise. I liked him on his own). But getting decapitated by Wolverine on panel is hard for subsequent writers to bring him back without heavy retconning. They did, but in a very ridiculous way that retcons what Morrison did in the first place. See what I mean?

Kind of reminds me of how they brought back Aunt May. She died and was buried. But no, it turns out that it was really an actress (not a clone) playing Aunt May who died. Nevermind that that Spider-man's spider sense would have gone off around an actress. Anyways, things like that to me, are ridiculous, even by comic book standards.

[pariah-1972]

To be honest, I think that's been good for comics, because, at the very least, those Hollywood guys are writing the books for fun, to be creative and because they're fans of the medium and/or the characters.

Too many of the professional comic book writers treated it as a "day job" and you got boring and passionless stories out of them.I would disagree on that. the bad thing is they don't take it seriously enough so we get shoddy work and long delays especially when there day job is calling.

[Evan Lanctot]

Great discussion, but nobody has yet answered the question:

Is Shooter off Legion?

I think it is, as usual for Shooter, a very well written book.

Evan L

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

But getting decapitated by Wolverine on panel is hard for subsequent writers to bring him back without heavy retconning. They did, but in a very ridiculous way that retcons what Morrison did in the first place. See what I mean?


Well the one of the rules of the books at the time Morrison wrote it was 'dead means dead', so if someone was to die in any way, it was meant to be for keeps.
Also, a big part of Morrisons run was showing that Xavier and Magneto weren't needed anymore, hence Magneto being out of touch with what the mutants wanted (and out of touch altogether with the whole 'pretend to be an x-man' plot), and viewed as a relic by most - and so I assume Magneto was killed off with the intention of never coming back from a story point of view, so playing it for keeps on panel was the best way to go.

Hilariously though, following a run that was all about evolution, the editors being totally uncreative and scared individuals, decided to go back to playing it safe - so whilst you can certainly blame those who came afterwards for a shitty mess that turned off more people than it brought in, I think blaming anyone involved in the story for killing a character on panel, when the thinking at the time was he wasn't coming back, is a touch misguided.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Great discussion, but nobody has yet answered the question:

Is Shooter off Legion?

I think it is, as usual for Shooter, a very well written book.

Evan L

From this week's lying in the gutters:

ITEM! Yeah, so what happened with that Jim-Shooter-off-Legion thing? Industry gossip has the move down to the "Legion Of Three Worlds" series that trampled on what Shooter saw as his plans for his series. And, so, vamoose.

[stelok]

There's no way DC would hire Shooter to be EiC. While he's a pretty talented guy, he also has a history of not getting along with others - something that's not going to go over well these days, when wooing top creative teams is one of the EiC's main responsibilities.

If this is true, it would be par for Shooter. Brilliant writer (one of the best that the industry has ever seen, in my opinion), but also a nightmare of a co-worker. Shooter has a lot of enemies back from the old Marvel days, and that may very well have carried over to DC in 2008. There's a reason why he wasn't worked with the big two since the 1980s. .Some of that old antagonism was undeserved, but his one-on-one diplomacy with collegues has always appeared to be lacking.


That is true. And what the other posters here have already said about him in his thread is true as well.

As a writer, Shooter is a genius. As an editor he does an excellent job. As a co-worker and a boss, he was a fool for not getting along. As a visionary he lacks vision.

That's why he got booted from Valiant by his own colleagues. Broadway comics and Defiant Comics, both of which he founded were flops.

[TStrong]

That's why he got booted from Valiant by his own colleagues. Broadway comics and Defiant Comics, both of which he founded were flops.

Not true. Shooter was driven from Valiant in a money grab. The company had been financed by a capital venture firm that wanted to cash in and Shooter stood to make a big chunk of that...but not if he was fired. When it was about time to sell, they fired him. Barry Windsor-Smith, who stuck around, said as much later. FORBES even published an article about it.

Shooter then helped form Defiant. He was well-liked enough by his co-workers that several of them followed him there, including David Lapham. A Marvel lawsuit over the name PLASM ('cause they had published the awful PLASMER) crippled the company. Even though Defiant won the suit, the lawsuit expenses -- coupled with poor comics sales -- ended that company.

Shooter then helped form Broadway Comics. He was well-liked enough by his co-workers that several of them followed him there, including J. G. Jones. Broadway Comics was purchased by Golden Books before it truly became established. Golden Books decided against publishing titles like Fatale and folded the company.

There's no argument that there wasn't much Shooter-love when he left Marvel. But he's engendered a lot of loyalty since then.

[Matt K]

From this week's lying in the gutters:

That sucks. So I guess I'm down to 2 DC titles now (Blue Beetle and Madam Xandu). I hate how DC keeps screwing over titles I like (and I'm new to DC, you'd think they'd want to keep me around).

[DonC]

A fan over at Newsarama is claiming he asked about Shooter being fired at Wizard World Philly. DC's Ian Sattler allegedly said Shooter is still writing Legion.

This piece of information was not in Newsarama's DC Nation coverage, nor CBR's. I'd take it with a grain of salt.

[Paul Newell]

A fan over at Newsarama is claiming he asked about Shooter being fired at Wizard World Philly. DC's Ian Sattler allegedly said Shooter is still writing Legion.

This piece of information was not in Newsarama's DC Nation coverage, nor CBR's. I'd take it with a grain of salt.

They have it over at Comics Continuum, however:

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0805/30/dcnation.htm

[Stephane Garrelie]

" * Jim Shooter remains writer of Legion of Super-Heroes, Sattler said. "

Yep. I saw the comicscontinum transcript of the DC Nation panel and the post by a fan at Newsarama.
I'm very happy with this news, which fits with what Marts was saying some weeks ago: that Shooter was in for the long haul.
Shooter's Legion is my favorite current comic book (ex-equo with Mouse Guard).

[Yodazone]

Wizard online is reporting the same news on thier Con coverage too:

http://www.wizarduniverse.com/053008wwphdcnation.html

Is Jim Shooter still on Legion?

Sattler: "Yes."

:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

[david r]

Well, DC said the same thing about Mark Waid on FLASH and BRAVE AND THE BOLD. Until a few months later, when they announced Waid off both books.

Technically, Jim Shooter is still the writer for LEGION. As of right now, he isn't off. But I suspect behind-the-scenes might be a different story. So DC can say yes, Jim is still writer at the moment, knowing hell be off the title in a few months.

[Zero Hunter]

If I had to guess I think they will try to keep Shooter on until issue 50, and then cancell the book for whatever version of the Legion they plan after The Legion of 3 Worlds story. Issue 50 will come out right about the time the last issue of the 3 Worlds mini.

Thats just my guess anyway.

[Ontir]

Maybe they'll let it run 'til #65, so this series can join the previous two with the same ending.

[Yodazone]

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=158811


Is Jim Shooter definitely the writer on Legion?

“Yes, he has a minimum of a year’s worth of stories.”

:biggrin:

[Stephane Garrelie]

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=158811


Is Jim Shooter definitely the writer on Legion?

“Yes, he has a minimum of a year’s worth of stories.”

:biggrin:
Great news! :smile: :smile: :smile:

[Ontir]

I'm enjoying his run, but there's nothing in that statement that suggests he's here long-term.

[Stephane Garrelie]

I'm enjoying his run, but there's nothing in that statement that suggests he's here long-term.

Shooter was suposed to do a 16 parts saga (with smaller arcs in it)
So far we got 6 issues.
Diddio just said that Shooter have "a year worth of stories" and earlier Slatter told that Shooter was still on the book.
It looks to me like Jim will do at the least his 16 parts saga.
That is great news.

[Paul Newell]

Well, DC said the same thing about Mark Waid on FLASH and BRAVE AND THE BOLD. Until a few months later, when they announced Waid off both books.
Only difference is that Mark Waid had signed an exclusive deal with Boom! Studio's, when DC said all this.

[david r]

Only difference is that Mark Waid had signed an exclusive deal with Boom! Studio's, when DC said all this.

Mark Waid became editor-in-chief of BOOM! Studios. But he specifically stated he had not signed an exclusive. Which left him open to write Brave and the Bold and Amazing Spider-Man.

I'm hopeful that Jim Shooter's 16-issue epic happens, but Geoff Johns' plans for Legion may be taking precedent now. :frown:

[Paul Newell]

Mark Waid became editor-in-chief of BOOM! Studios. But he specifically stated he had not signed an exclusive. Which left him open to write Brave and the Bold and Amazing Spider-Man.

I'm hopeful that Jim Shooter's 16-issue epic happens, but Geoff Johns' plans for Legion may be taking precedent now. :frown:
Ah, cool, thanks. Knew I'd get some deatils wrong. Still it's a different situation to the one Shooter's in.

BTW, No-one seems to have realised that, by the time that LO3W's ends, Shooter would bu up to around part 13 of his storyline....So it wouldn't exactly be cutting his run drastically short...Though I'd still like to see it to its conclusion.

[Ontir]

If Shooter got to tell a set story, from start to finish, as planned, before Johns brought "the real Legion" back, I'd be fine with that.

I just don't want to see him rushed, as DnA were, so we could be subjected to 5, utter crap, fill-in issues in their stead.

[Paul Newell]

Over at Michael Grabois' excellent blog The Legion Omnicom (http://adventure247.blogspot.com/), the latest post discusses a possible future for the Legion series, (Though he does get his figures slightly wrong). :smile:

But it got me thinking about just what we'll see unveiled once the mini is finished. The way things are looking, all going well, with issue #49 being released in December, along with LO3W #5. That would mean that, in January, the first post FC issue would be #50...which would also be the 12th issue written by Shooter. As mentioned at the recent Con, Shooter is on the title for at least 12 months.

My gut feeling is that it will be Shooter's final issue and a big send off/new direction establishing issue that will set up a new status quo for the Legion. It could even be the final volume for the current series.

Just what that Legion will be is another matter...again my gut feeling is that they won't combine the three Legion's into one....Or if they do it won't be a bloodbath. I'm thinking there'll be a timeline change, incorporating characters like Gates and XS into the "Action Legion" continuity.

EDIT: And I see Zero Hunter beat me to the punch. :D

[Paul Newell]

If I had to guess I think they will try to keep Shooter on until issue 50, and then cancell the book for whatever version of the Legion they plan after The Legion of 3 Worlds story. Issue 50 will come out right about the time the last issue of the 3 Worlds mini.

Thats just my guess anyway.
A big disappointment for me is the numbering. I had an alternate theory of what they could do, rather than restarting with a new number one. A few years ago, Barry Kitson asked at Legion World what a particular issues number would be if the Legion had continued numbering from the Superboy series the Legion took over (V2).

That lead to the gag on issue #15's cover where Blok asks if it shoudn't be issue #568.

I thought they could have done a "Fantastic Four" and restarted the Legion with the V2 numbering. Unfortunately #50 would become #603.

Missed it by THAT much.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

So how do you Legion fans who have gone through this before cope?

I've got next to no interest in seeing the book go back to how it was not only before I read Legion, but before I was even reading comics.

[DonC]

Wasn't the current Legion book supposed to be the first series set on "New Earth?" Like, after all this Crisis stuff? Or was it just after 52?

[Ontir]

So how do you Legion fans who have gone through this before cope?

I've got next to no interest in seeing the book go back to how it was not only before I read Legion, but before I was even reading comics.

You grit your teeth, blaspheme the name of Waid, and hope for the best!

Either way, I think we'll be OK. Shooter is making Waid.2 as REAL Legion as possible, so that's alright. If his version goes the way of all good things, then we've got Johns restoring the pre-Crisis Legion, with all its history intact, which is a damn good thing! Really, we can't lose right now.

[carabas]

Wasn't the current Legion book supposed to be the first series set on "New Earth?" Like, after all this Crisis stuff? Or was it just after 52?I do recall reading around the time it launched that the Waid Legion was set on 'New Earth', although I never really saw much difference with 'Old Earth'.

[Ontir]

I think one of Waid.2's problems was that it was an Earth that the rest of the DCU wasn't on, and the cutesy gags, like the Legionnaires reading old DC Comics in the HQ just set the Legion further apart from the regular DCU, which is always a mistake. Johns is now moving the Legion to a far more central position, whether his Legion emerges as THE Legion, or if there's a hybrid of the 3 Worlds remains to be seen, but regardless much, if not all of Waid.2 is going to be removed, even if whittled, bit by bit.

[Paul Newell]

So how do you Legion fans who have gone through this before cope?

I've got next to no interest in seeing the book go back to how it was not only before I read Legion, but before I was even reading comics.
Ah, you just roll with it. As long as I'm still reading a Legion comic, I'm happy.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Really, we can't lose right now.

Well I only just got into it with this launch, and reading in trades I'm still in the Waid issues, so to me, there's no sell whatsoever in the book going back to old continuity.

I think one of Waid.2's problems was that it was an Earth that the rest of the DCU wasn't on, and the cutesy gags, like the Legionnaires reading old DC Comics in the HQ just set the Legion further apart from the regular DCU, which is always a mistake.

Wouldn't keeping it apart from DCU actually help the book, as they don't have to deal with things like Superboy not existing, Zero Hour etc.

[Sandy Hausler]

If this is true, it would be par for Shooter. Brilliant writer (one of the best that the industry has ever seen, in my opinion), but also a nightmare of a co-worker. Shooter has a lot of enemies back from the old Marvel days, and that may very well have carried over to DC in 2008. There's a reason why he wasn't worked with the big two since the 1980s. .Some of that old antagonism was undeserved, but his one-on-one diplomacy with collegues has always appeared to be lacking.

Actually, I heard (through a comics pro friend, who got it from one of Shooter's buddies, so take it with a grain of salt) that Shooter's editor was changing stuff without evening mentioning it it Shooter. He didn't even know of the changes until the book came out. He complained (most likely loudly and more than a little), and the editor decided that it would be easier to get rid of him.

Sandy Hausler

[JohnPopa]

I leave when Shooter leaves.

The last thing I want is 'Legion' to be yet another DCU book with Geoff Johns's stink smeared all over it.

[DDM]

Actually, I heard (through a comics pro friend, who got it from one of Shooter's buddies, so take it with a grain of salt) that Shooter's editor was changing stuff without evening mentioning it it Shooter. He didn't even know of the changes until the book came out. He complained (most likely loudly and more than a little), and the editor decided that it would be easier to get rid of him.

Sandy Hausler

Former Marvel editor Bob Harras changed dialog from both Chris Claremont & Louise Simonson's scripts without telling them which was one of the many factors of them eventually leaving the X-books. An editor should at least call the writer before the changed script is published though. I find just not telling them slimey & cowardly on the editor's part.

[Ontir]

Well I only just got into it with this launch, and reading in trades I'm still in the Waid issues, so to me, there's no sell whatsoever in the book going back to old continuity.

I loathed what Waid did to the Legion, so getting rid of it is a MAJOR selling point!

Wouldn't keeping it apart from DCU actually help the book, as they don't have to deal with things like Superboy not existing, Zero Hour etc.

You either have to do one, or the other. It's either connected (most likely via Superman) to the rest of the DCU, or it's more of a stand-alone, as it was during most of the 80's. Waid's Legion managed to be neither.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

You either have to do one, or the other. It's either connected (most likely via Superman) to the rest of the DCU, or it's more of a stand-alone, as it was during most of the 80's. Waid's Legion managed to be neither.

I thought it was connected, but not beholden - which personally is how I like to see continuity used.

[Ontir]

Waid.2 was more like "aware of...", and that's part of why it didn't work.

I can't wait until it's gone, and after so bloody long, we can have the REAL Legion back!

[Mon-el]

Hmmmm

The first 15 issues of Waid's run wasn't great, but it was enjoyable enough for me to continue with it. I liked some of the aspects such as the comics, and I loved the character moments much more than the overall threat of Lemnos and his groupies. I wanted to know what the Legion Headquarters was once used as before it became theirs. I loved the back-up pages as well, with the introductions of character's powers and the breaking of the 4th wall. For a 30 page comic it was enjoyable.

What I didn't like the constant "overagers versus the teenagers" after awhile it became like it was beating in everyone's head. The constant struggle between Brainiac 5 and Cosmic Boy for leadership, it became pointless after awhile just arguing over it. Some of the filler issues was just that it, it was pointless filler issue's, with nothing to advance the plot.

Then OYL with Issue #15 with the introduction of Supergirl and the Legion of Super-heroes it became actually pretty good again. Finding out the who's and what have you's, and if it was really her, was fascinating. I liked the introduction of Mekt and his Wamderer's and the return of Mon-El with a purpose and a great destruction facing the Entire United Planets.

It became a Legion Comic again.

What I didn't like: The shortening from a 30 page comic to a 22 page Comic. The back-ups completely gone now. A few of the issue's toward the end of the run was again Just filler. Here's where 52 really hurt a comic instead of helping it, because They couldn't show why the Dominator war had started. It was because of Booster Gold Time Traveling to fight Mr Mind. Him stealing weapons to use against him, when 52 hadn't even caught up yet to revealing Booster Gold was still alive. So for like the last 3 or 4 issues it kept saying the conclusion to the Dominator war was just next and every issue failed to deliver.

Then Tony Bedard's Quest for Cosmic Boy.................I hated every issue. Granted it was just filler for Shooter to have lead in time for his scripts, but it done away with the wanderer's and Mekt, It had nothing really to do with Cosmic Boy, because he is still missing. The only thing I liked was that it introduced Matter Eater Lad and Wildfire, and showed what this version of Winath was like. Everything else was mundane and boring for me(even the Legion election was a goof up, and was pointless). It instantly turned me off to everything.

With Shooter, we are seeing more characterization than it's been since the start. I'm enjoying it alot more, I instantly fell in love with Giselle, and some of the tryouts, Characters are split into actual teams instead of just a brute force. Lightning Lad proving the struggle of his leadership and his personality. Saturn Girl coming under heavy stress to what her morals are. Princess Projectra seeing more vulnerability as to what happened to her Planet which happened 20 some issues ago. I like what Jim is doing with the Legion very much now. I would hate to see that go.

[lazlo_toth]

So how do you Legion fans who have gone through this before cope?

I've got next to no interest in seeing the book go back to how it was not only before I read Legion, but before I was even reading comics.

Up until a few years ago whores and crack were the only things that helped me maintain my equilibrium, but after my last aneurysm I've had to get by with Yoga and a couple of beers once or twice a month.

In all seriousness, I was able to get through the 90s by aggressively hunting down all of the old Adventure and Action appearances. Even when the book was really going down the drain I was going to cons and it was like "Holy crap! Revolt of the Super-Pets! Bizarro Legion! THE SECRET FREAKING ORIGIN OF BOUNCING BOY! Thank You, Jesus!" So it was all good. The Waid/Kitson reboot was hard to swallow, though; there was no justifiable reason I could think of for doing that, and I would've thought as a Legion fan himself Waid would have understood how unwelcome another reboot would be.

[Ontir]

I'm now hearing this series is toast. Continually low sales, etc. are paving the way for Johns to re-start, post-Lo3W.

[Matthew E]

Well, maybe so. I have to wonder, though, if Johns is capable of delivering higher sales for the Legion in the long term. If he is, fine; if not, then what? Because the sales figures may not be where DC wants them, but they're about ten, fifteen thousand higher than some other titles, with less history than the Legion, that DC isn't cancelling.

Maybe there is a combination that can return the Legion to the upper reaches of the sales charts.

Or maybe their natural level is at about 30, 000 and they're going to seek out that level regardless of what DC does.

I don't know. I do know that I don't want them to ruin everything in the process of trying to find out.

[carabas]

Yeah, if DC thinks that the John-Legion is going to do noticeably better than tge Waid-Legion in th long run, they're delusional. There is a reason that th Legion has gone trough more cancelations and reboots than almost any other property that currently has a book out: people outside of their hadcore fanbase simply do not like them.

[DonEMC]

I think Waid's reboot changed way too much and Barry Kitson's art was mundane at best. The costume changes were unnecessary.
I agree with Mon-El that the whole "teens vs. adults" stuff became old very, very quickly and the infighting between Brainiac 5 and Cosmic Boy was really out of character and drawn out too long. Where's the teamwork in the Legion? Who is Chameleon Boy (we don't know much about him at all, because he's not had a personality throughout this whole Waid debacle)? Who is Starboy? (until Bedard's Search for Cosmic Boy, did Starboy even speak? If so, not much)
I don't think that Shooter's run has been all that bad. But, nowadays, comic readers don't want good storytelling. They want one big event after another after another after another... and every story that Shooter would have wrapped up in one issue now has to take six so that it can be put into a trade paperback.
Things have certainly changed since Shooter actively wrote comics and that, too, may have had some affect on his writing. I, personally, like his storytelling style and I like what he's done with the Legion and I wish DC wouldn't given him much more of a chance.

[Matthew E]

I disagree with a lot of that, but especially about Chameleon. As Waid wrote him, he was one of the most unusual characters I've ever seen in comics. Go back and check those issues, and you'll see that every time Chameleon really interacts with someone, or (especially) every time someone says anything about him, it reveals more about the other person than it does about Chameleon. In the threeboot, Cham is a mirror.

Cham complains to Micro Lad about Micro Lad misunderstanding his powers? That's a reflection of Gim's own complaints about people calling him 'Colossal Boy'.

Triplicate Girl calls Cham a prankster? Check issue #3 to see who the real prankster is.

Cosmic Boy calls Cham 'poisonously bitter'? He's the bitter one.

And so on. I don't think Shooter is writing Cham this way, which is a shame; it was quite an inventive idea and I was looking forward to it being explored more deeply.

[Traf]

I really enjoyed the first year of Waid's run, but after Supergirl joined things started to fall apart. I've been enjoying Shooter's run so far and I hope he stays on for awhile.

[Ontir]

Or maybe their natural level is at about 30, 000 and they're going to seek out that level regardless of what DC does.

I don't know. I do know that I don't want them to ruin everything in the process of trying to find out.

Doubtful, considering that Legion was the #3 book of the eighties, and incredibly strong in the 70's. There's no reason that it can't top the charts again, which is something that Waid promised when he ruined what was, again, this last time. One of the great strengths of a Johns book, returning to pre-Crisis continuity, is that many people who've been away from the book for more than a decade now, are likely to give it a chance, now that so much of the damage seems to be in the process of being excised.

[carabas]

Doubtful, considering that Legion was the #3 book of the eighties, and incredibly strong in the 70's.If ut's that popular, why does it keep on getting canceled and rebooted?

[Matthew E]

If ut's that popular, why does it keep on getting canceled and rebooted?

It doesn't.

It's been rebooted twice. You can't say that something 'keeps happening' if it's happened twice.

[carabas]

That is at least one more time than most series.

[Nakomah]

It is all about trying to boost ratings higher. If they (being ANY comic compnay) see that a "reboot" boosts sales for a month or two (boosting their monetary coffers as well) than why not try it over and over. Example: If changing spider-man (He reveals his identity) boosts sales than why not change it again (It never happened) and than in a year or so change it again (Just a guess but Peter will begin to remember or MJ and he will remeet). Boosts sales.
Very standard practice in all books. Hulk has had three restarts.
The question is...would you rather have a reboot or three or more books with the same characters (How many x-books are too many?)

[Ontir]

If [i]t's that popular, why does it keep on getting canceled and rebooted?

It's been cancelled and re-booted since continuity got ripped apart, post-Crisis. Johns is un-doing all that. Taking the series back to where it was, intact, in its greatest days.

It's also been re-started, not because sales were bad, but because of the whole "new #1" fad. A new #1 gives an obvious starting point for new readers, and (at least in theory) has something to do with collect-ability. When the Legion was re-started in 84, the old book continued. This was done with Legion and Titans - DC's top-selling books. The only other book on parr, or exceeding either was X-Men.

The question isn't so much "why does it keep getting cancelled?" but "why doesn't it stay cancelled? Why is it brought back with very little gap in publciation?" Because there IS a demand.

[Zero Hunter]

Actully the restarts for the most part made sence with what was happening in the series. The Baxter series was a whole new way in how the book was sold and looked so they wanted to start it off with a bang. Giffens new number one with the 5YL Legion was because the book was making such a radical departure from what had come before, and so much time had passed storywise. The DnA new number one was sort of along the same thing as Giffens with alot of time in the book passing between the end of the last series and the begining of the new one. If anything Legion should have been relaunched again right after Zero Hour with a new number one too honeslty.

Now Waid's relaunch was just a waste and a mess from the start.

[Paul Newell]

That is at least one more time than most series.
You mean like Teen Titans, Doom Patrol, Hawkman and a myriad other teams that broke up and started with an all-new direction and members? Granted the dynamics are different for the Legion as it's set in the future and time travel comes into play...

[Ontir]

Aquaman or the Marvel Family, anyone?

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Yeah, if DC thinks that the John-Legion is going to do noticeably better than tge Waid-Legion in th long run, they're delusional.

Quite true.


There is a reason that th Legion has gone trough more cancelations and reboots than almost any other property that currently has a book out: people outside of their hadcore fanbase simply do not like them.

Hi! You may have noticed my posts in this thread - the one where I mentioned the first Legion I ever read was from the Waid reboot, and quite liked it - so your comments aren't actually true.

However, I'm not quite getting why others assume that taking a book back to 'how it used to be' is going to boost sales.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

One of the great strengths of a Johns book, returning to pre-Crisis continuity, is that many people who've been away from the book for more than a decade now, are likely to give it a chance, now that so much of the damage seems to be in the process of being excised.

Any evidence to back that up?

I'm seeing you and Paul waving the flag optimistically for this reboot, but no one else seems that excited.

[Ontir]

I've got a contact, who has sources I've met, and I trust my info.

Flag is mounted and ready to wave with wild abandon!!!

[Paul Newell]

Any evidence to back that up?

I'm seeing you and Paul waving the flag optimistically for this reboot, but no one else seems that excited.
Who me? I'm optomistic for all reboots. :)

I guess the thinking goes that, by returning to the last "successful" version of the Legion, then the readers that left at that point will return.

The sales figures from around that time had Levitz's Legion selling, on average, around 100, 000 copies. Couple that with the sales on John's Action Comics arc, as well as his success in rebooting Green Lantern, might lead DC to replace one Legion with another that they think will sell more.

[victor_lanza]

I really enjoyed the first year of Waid's run, but after Supergirl joined things started to fall apart. I've been enjoying Shooter's run so far and I hope he stays on for awhile.

I agree with this, but I haven't bought any of the Shooter issues. Just kinda of followed them through on line reviews and such. I fear once I start buying them, DC will re-boot again based on Johns/Action Legion. Call me gun-shy.

[lazlo_toth]

If ut's that popular, why does it keep on getting canceled and rebooted?

The Legion has never been "cancelled" since it got its own title. At every point that DC has "cancelled" the Legion's title there has been a new series in the pipeline, and there has been a Legion project (Titans/Legion mini, Superboy's Legion Elseworlds series, Titans/Legion special, Legion Lost, Legion Worlds, etc.) published during the down times between those series. Since 1989, when there was a 3-month gap between the end of the Baxter run and the 5YG series, I don't think there's been a month where there hasn't been some kind of Legion material being put out. If there is, I promise you there has been more downtime without Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, or Justice League material during that stretch. Nobody ever talks about how many times THOSE books have been "cancelled."