DC Universe: trapped in the Silver Age?

[gwor]

One of the effects of Crisis on Infinite Earths was that DC started with a blank slate of sorts, having jettisoned many Silver Age concepts.

Although many of the stories that dominated the 90s were quite bad and gimmick-driven (Knightfall, Death of Supes, Emerald Twilight), at least there was an attempt to push the characters in new directions, rather than retreading old ground.

Geoff Johns and Grant Morrisson, mainly responsible for the current creative thrust of the DC Universe, are obviously heavily influenced by the Silver Age. Although I was thrilled at first by familiar concepts making comebacks, I feel that their reliance on intergrating old continuity into current incarnations of characters is resulting in a confusing and stifling mess.

Even though certain story beats may be successful, I don't feel the overall approach is friendly for new readers.

What do you guys think?

[Bat-Reader]

what i think is silver age crapy. and they do this silver age thing because of the success of The New Frontier.... and i like New Frontier. It's a great read. It's so great that it even make Silver Age look great. But in realty (kind of ironic, i think) Silver Age is crapy. This's the problam i think this's why marvel crashes DC every month in sales. Like Back then in Silver Age.

[Augusto]

Even though certain story beats may be successful, I don't feel the overall approach is friendly for new readers.

What do you guys think?

I think this could work for many persons because at some point you don't need to know erevything that had happened in the last 30 years, of course, if you are a nostalgic for Silver age, AKA die hard fan.

New fans can come anytime but with new events and retcons in the coming years, it's when they'll be confused.

what i think is silver age crapy. and they do this silver age thing because of the success of The New Frontier.... and i like New Frontier. It's a great read. It's so great that it even make Silver Age look great. But in realty (kind of ironic, i think) Silver Age is crapy. This's the problam i think this's why marvel crashes DC every month in sales. Like Back then in Silver Age.

:wink: Take it easy. Next year everything is gonna be "normal" again:rolleyes:

[Adset]

The Silver Age was far from "crappy." The trouble a lot of new readers run into while checking out Golden/Silver Age work is that they try to directly compare the writing/art to modern standards. The Silver Age was probably the most wildly creative era in comic book history. Were there clunkers? Sure... but then again, the modern age had its 1990s

[Shellhead]

what i think is silver age crapy. and they do this silver age thing because of the success of The New Frontier.... and i like New Frontier. It's a great read. It's so great that it even make Silver Age look great. But in realty (kind of ironic, i think) Silver Age is crapy. This's the problam i think this's why marvel crashes DC every month in sales. Like Back then in Silver Age.

Marvel seems pretty fond of the Silver Age these days, too. They are just doing a better job of selling it to the fans. Spider-man is back to being a swinging single. Heroes are fighting amongst themselves just like the old days when they kept meeting up and having these violent misunderstandings. The current big storyline involves an alien race introduced in FF #3, in the early '60s.

[Zero Hunter]

I think they aren't so much stuck in the Silver Age as the fact that they have been revaming and useing stuff that was big then. Morrison and Johns have a real gift for taking characters that used to be seen as pretty campey and light and tweaking them to better fit the modern times. So its not so much rehashing the Silver Age as it is redefining some things for the modern age from the silver age.

[carabas]

I think we get the stories we deserve.
When new situations and status quos are created, we bitch and moan. When new characters are created, we at best completely avoid them, at worst start up a crusade to have them killed of and have captain Silver age reinstated.

Mind you, this is a very generic 'we' I am talking about here, but we as fans are a conservative lot when it comes to our reading habits, and we are very resistant to change.

[woodsman816]

while i do agree that the retreading of classic ground tends to stifle new and "original" story lines i do feel that the silver age stories have become easily identifiable for new readers who know nothing of comics because they have been ported to other mediums (film, animation games)

[Fatguy]

I think we get the stories we deserve.
When new stuations and staus quos are created, we bitch and moan. When new characters are created, we at best completely avoid them, at worst start up a crusade to have them killed of and have captain Silver age reinstated.

Mind you, this is a very generic 'we' I am talking about here, but we as fans are a conservative lot when it comes to our reading habits, and we are very resistant to change.

Yea, you absolutely hit the nail on the head.

The average comic fan loathes change.

[JCAll]

Marvel seems pretty fond of the Silver Age these days, too. They are just doing a better job of selling it to the fans. Spider-man is back to being a swinging single. Heroes are fighting amongst themselves just like the old days when they kept meeting up and having these violent misunderstandings. The current big storyline involves an alien race introduced in FF #3, in the early '60s.

I'm sorry, what was that?

[TROUBLEZ]

I think it's cool that they are bringing back Silver Age DC aspects, and I don't think it's that confusing. I didn't know half of the characters featured in the relaunch of the JLA but it made me want to find out what's a Starro, etc.

But I think it's a cliche now, when they bring classic/obscure characters from continuity and do the ol' "everything you know is wrong," or trying to portray all these classic characters in such "adult" situations just to make the comic edgy. It was fun and new when Alan Moore did it in the 80s but now it's boring.

[dupersuper]

I'm fine with bringing back silver age concepts, but only without retconning. New Zod and Supergirl that are more in line with their silver age origins? Great. Saying the past 20 years of stories with different versions of the charactors never happened just so your new guy/girl can be the first? Stupid. Using more Krypto? cool. Krypto's was supposedly from Krypton all along and is wedged into Clarks' Smallville days? Stupid. Wonder Woman was there in the beginning of the league? Fine. Black Canary as founder and great stories like JLA Year One may be cancelled out? Stupid. Etc.

[botch]

They are stuck in the silver age, everyone knows this, every blogger brings up the fact that the people in DC right now are nostalgic and bringing back things that were part of their childhood. Which would be fine by me if it was the Marvel Silver Age because they were actually good comics, whilst most of DC's Silver age was pretty childish. But taking some ideas and modernizing them and making it a bit more violent, is a good thing. That's alot of the silver age influence.

[Shellhead]

I'm sorry, what was that?

Didn't you hear about Mary Jane? I thought that news nearly cracked the internet in half. Lots of people complained, but of course the Spider-comics continue to sell well.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Didn't you hear about Mary Jane? I thought that news nearly cracked the internet in half. Lots of people complained, but of course the Spider-comics continue to sell well.

Yeah, but the part he's having a problem with is that you said that they sold the idea better, even though a whole lot of people had problems with OMD.



(Though, they really did. If not, then BND wouldn't be selling).

[Kid Kamikaze10]

They are stuck in the silver age, everyone knows this, every blogger brings up the fact that the people in DC right now are nostalgic and bringing back things that were part of their childhood. Which would be fine by me if it was the Marvel Silver Age because they were actually good comics, whilst most of DC's Silver age was pretty childish. But taking some ideas and modernizing them and making it a bit more violent, is a good thing. That's alot of the silver age influence.


Good writing != "Adult" or even "modernized", especially not the way you portray it (violence, edginess, sex, etc.) Something that leans more towards younger audiences isn't always "childish", and even if they are, it doesn't mean it sucks..

There are plenty of ways to write good stories without resorting to all that. Heck, sometimes those stories are even more mature.

IMO, there were quite a bit of good SA DC comics, even though they weren't as new and hip as Marvels. And, I couldn't give too s**ts what the bloggers have to say, I don't see DC as stuck in the Silver Age. I them as trying to find the ideas, past or new ideas (and even a mix of the two), that can be used to make great stories. I don't see the problem with that.

[gwor]

Good points.

It's not that I mind the use of old concepts or characters to tell a new tale; I guess I wish DC would be a little more forward thinking, than continually revisiting old characters and concepts.

The DC SA was pretty cool; the heroes were clean-cut, with simple motivations facing wildly inventive foes and situations. They were comics that didn't take themselves too seriously, and tried to bring something new to the table every month (even though many ideas were definitely misfires <g>).

I get the feeling DC is relying on older readers to keep buying their books; it might be a better idea to figure out how to bring in new readers, although I admit I'm not certain how exactly to pull that off these days.

[valentine]

I have to say, I was heavily invested in what DC laid down in terms of a timeline structure in Zero Hour.

But i can definitely see the appeal of revisiting "Silver Age" concepts and selling it to a new audience.

[xnef1025]

I'm an older comic reader, but a new DC reader. Started picking up superhero books as a kid in the late 80's up through early 90's. Mostly, I just read Marvel. I'd pick up a Batbook every so often, check out how Supes died, but mainly, all Marvel. Something just didn't click for me with DC.

A few years ago, I'm getting back into comics again and IC is just starting, so I figure I'll give DC another shot. Suddenly, this whole other comic universe is interesting to me. I wasn't sure why at the time, but now, I think it's because these characters have their history back. COIE cut the DCU off from decades of stories that the writers could play off of and even me being a stupid kid, could feel it without being able to put my finger on it. Spidey and the X-Men had far reaching histories that could be referred back to and used to springboard stories off of. Superman suddenly couldn't go back past 1986 or risk screwing up the new status quo. Of course, since Superman is the backbone of everything DC, that disconnect from past stories affected everyone in some way.

Is DC going back to the Silver Age well a bit too often right now? Maybe. However, the well was sealed off for 20 years and is full to overflowing because of it. As a newer DC reader, I'm happy to see what they pull out of it and shine up for us.

[gwor]

I think it's because these characters have their history back.

I hadn't thought of it that way, great point. Thing is, the Silver Age stuff is definitely worth reintroducing and playing around with. As long as writers treat the material in an interesting manner, the reader wins.

[TROUBLEZ]

But taking some ideas and modernizing them and making it a bit more violent, is a good thing. That's alot of the silver age influence.


I think the opposite. I think it's ridiculous. I understand alot of the lighter, whimsical silver age stuff can't stay the same, but to go Hostel on them is immature.

There is a difference between mature stories and adult stories.

[TROUBLEZ]

Good points.

It's not that I mind the use of old concepts or characters to tell a new tale; I guess I wish DC would be a little more forward thinking, than continually revisiting old characters and concepts.


I get the feeling DC is relying on older readers to keep buying their books; it might be a better idea to figure out how to bring in new readers, although I admit I'm not certain how exactly to pull that off these days.



Is DC going back to the Silver Age well a bit too often right now? Maybe. However, the well was sealed off for 20 years and is full to overflowing because of it. As a newer DC reader, I'm happy to see what they pull out of it and shine up for us.



I think you guys hit the nail/s on the head.
It makes the characters more interesting and fun with this history but either because of DC marketing to older fans or because writers finally get a chance to play with all these classic concepts, these are probably the reasons why it feels so much Silver Agey.

[Bat-Reader]

:wink: Take it easy. Next year everything is gonna be "normal" again:rolleyes:

i hope so :rolleyes:

[Pól Rua]

They're not stuck in the Silver Age. They're doing 90's style teeth-gritty grim arse nonsense. They just happen to have hung up some Silver Age Christmas ornaments around the place.
DC's output today reminds me less of Julie Schwarz' editorial tenure during the 60's and more of Bob Harras' Marvel Editorial tenure during the 90's.

The Silver Age isn't just about Gorillas with jetpacks and Barry Allen. It's a style of storytelling, character design and story structure. Today's DC comics have none of that.

You are confusing surface for substance.

Is DC trapped in the Silver Age...? No. Is DC relentlessly mining the Silver Age for concepts because they have too many creatively bankrupt hacks on the payroll who can't come up with a decent idea for themselves and wanna make it seem like they're doing something new when what they're really offering us is the same tired 'Comics Aren't For Kids Anymore' nonsense?

That's a little closer to the mark.

The tinsel may be Silver, but the TREE sure ain't.

[Pól Rua]

Although many of the stories that dominated the 90s were quite bad and gimmick-driven (Knightfall, Death of Supes, Emerald Twilight), at least there was an attempt to push the characters in new directions, rather than retreading old ground.

New directions?

More like A new direction.
Kill the old hero, replace with new hero. New hero goes nutty, old hero comes back to save the day.

[TROUBLEZ]

Is DC trapped in the Silver Age...? No. Is DC relentlessly mining the Silver Age for concepts because they have too many creatively bankrupt hacks on the payroll who can't come up with a decent idea for themselves and wanna make it seem like they're doing something new when what they're really offering us is the same tired 'Comics Aren't For Kids Anymore' nonsense?

That's a little closer to the mark.

The tinsel may be Silver, but the TREE sure ain't.

My feelings exactly.

[gwor]

Is DC relentlessly mining the Silver Age for concepts because they have too many creatively bankrupt hacks on the payroll who can't come up with a decent idea for themselves and wanna make it seem like they're doing something new when what they're really offering us is the same tired 'Comics Aren't For Kids Anymore' nonsense?

Well said. Today's DC output simply can't hold a candle to the Silver Age material, but I'm an old fart who's biased <g>.

Comics should be for kids, and that's just one of the problems plaguing the industry today.

[carabas]

No. Is DC relentlessly mining the Silver Age for concepts because they have too many creatively bankrupt hacks on the payroll who can't come up with a decent idea for themselves and wanna make it seem like they're doing something new when what they're really offering us is the same tired 'Comics Aren't For Kids Anymore' nonsense?

That's a little closer to the mark.And DC has tried to do non-silver agey stuff time and time again, and it turns out that the silver agey stuff sell a whole lot better, so that is what we're stuck with.

There is nothing that comics fans hate more than new ideas and characters.

[TROUBLEZ]

And DC has tried to do non-silver agey stuff time and time again, and it turns out that the silver agey stuff sell a whole lot better, so that is what we're stuck with.

There is nothing that comics fans hate more than new ideas and characters.

New doesn't automatically equal good. I for one, like new ideas and characters, yet I don't always want drastic changes either like Batman to be replaced with a former assassin that looks like a robot or the Spider-man I read and grew up with to be revealed to be a clone.

If DC's current direction is making them money, then hey, I'm in the minority, but I wasn't around for the silver age. What DC is doing is getting regular readers like me, to give up on their book line entirely.I like that these great characters have their histories back but I don't want every story to hinge on my knowledge of obscure characters from 30 years ago. A nice balance would be good. DC doesn't know how to successfully move forward in their stories so they fall back on nostalgia.

[Suzanne]

I don't have a problem with this "silver age revival" if it produces enjoyable comics. Perhaps DC's realized that certain concepts and characters that were muddled with Crisis and endless reboots shouldn't have been abandoned in the first place.

[Augusto]

And DC has tried to do non-silver agey stuff time and time again, and it turns out that the silver agey stuff sell a whole lot better, so that is what we're stuck with.

There is nothing that comics fans hate more than new ideas and characters.

That's very accurate. http://www.yelims.com/IPB/Smiley-IPB-110.gif

http://www.yelims.com/IPB/Invision-Board-France-234.gif

[John Asperger]

what i think is silver age crapy. and they do this silver age thing because of the success of The New Frontier.... and i like New Frontier. It's a great read. It's so great that it even make Silver Age look great. But in realty (kind of ironic, i think) Silver Age is crapy. This's the problam i think this's why marvel crashes DC every month in sales. Like Back then in Silver Age.











...Factually-wise , DC outsold Marvel during the Silver Age , it was about 1972-3 that Marvel pulled ahead of DC (& has generally , except for the very late 90s?? , stayed there (in periodiacl sales) , IIRC) .
( I've not read every post here , so , if someone else has already said such...)

[Augusto]

I stumbled into a french saying: Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose, meaning the more things chage, the more they remain the same.
http://www.yelims.com/IPB/Invision-Board-France-234.gif

[Kelson]

Comics should be for kids, and that's just one of the problems plaguing the industry today.

Slightly off-topic, but I disagree. Not entirely. Some comics should be for kids, or at least kid-friendly. More than there are right now, probably. But they shouldn't all be for kids.

Saying "Comics should be for kids" is like saying "Movies should be for kids." It means ignoring the value of high-quality works like Transmetropolitan, Fables, Sandman, Preacher, etc.

[Super Buddies Forever]

Right, I never understood the "comics should be for kids" mentality. It's like saying "I don't want the books I enjoy reading to be written for me anymore."

Hell, when I was a kid I had no trouble keeping up with the comics DC was putting out (the Death of Superman era). Kids don't like to be talked down to (and that's why I feel comics like Tiny Titans miss the point entirely, but that's another argument). The problem doesn't rest in how the books are written (although they could probably stand to have a few less beheadings and limbs being ripped off), but in how they're marketed.

As for the point at hand, I think DC is way too dismissive of what they built in the 1990's. For all of the bashing of this era that goes on, be it my fans, editors, writers, or even in the stories themselves ("oh no! The universe is too dark! We've lost our way!"), I think it's just a simple case of generational divide. It's always hip to look down on what came immediately before, because, 1) New and young fans have a tendency to do so, and 2) The fans of the era prior to the '90s are now in control. When time passes and nostalgia deems it acceptable to cherish the '90s, we'll start seeing those elements creeping back in, and a Dan DiDio from my generation will come along and revert as much as possible back to the way it was when he or she was a reader. Conner, Connor, and Bart will come back with a vengeance. Kyle will have his own series again. Doomsday and Bane will be top rogues.

Will this cause a constant tug of war, where, every ten to fifteen years, things will be jerked back to how they were in the past? Or will we finally reach a happy medium where fans of all eras will be placated?

[Babylon23]

Personally, I don't think DC is trapped in the Silver Age at all. They're certainly acknowledging the rich history of their characters and incorporating some of the elements that were lost in the original post-Crisis rush to be more like Marvel, but I don't see that as a bad thing.

However, the depth of characterisation and storytelling techniques are very different to the approach taken in the Silver Age. Even the much-maligned approach taken by Geoff Johns is more reminiscent of the storyteeling techniques employed in the 80's than the 60's. I'd argue that Johns is influenced more by writers like Claremont, Stern nad Wolfman than by Drake, Haney, etc.

[Herr Mike]

The Sue Dibney rape and the Ted Kord headshot were loving tributes to the silver age.

[Pól Rua]

And DC has tried to do non-silver agey stuff time and time again, and it turns out that the silver agey stuff sell a whole lot better, so that is what we're stuck with.
There is nothing that comics fans hate more than new ideas and characters.

My personal issue isn't so much with the ideas and characters as it with the execution of these ideas.
The multiverse, for example, was a classic Julie Schwarz idea, but its return in '52' reeked of editorial caveat and was extremely poorly and hamfistedly executed.

[Buried Alien]

When you're in a place that you like and is good to you, you don't think of yourself as being "trapped."

There's a word for it..."home," I think.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[NotSuper]

The Silver Age was a defining point for DC. It's where the ideas of the Golden Age were refined, moving beyond the pulp inspirations and becoming a unique medium. Even the new characters created today are emanations of that past age.

In terms of the individual characters created in the Silver Age getting a big push in recent years, it's because they're archetypal and connect with both hardcore and casual fans. It has little to do with nostalgia. And really, everyone is nostalgic, whether it's an era ten, twenty, or thirty years back.

I think if a comic company wants new characters to survive and thrive, they need to give them the same archetypal quality of past characters. If they just create a cliched "everyman" hero fans will simply assume it's a Peter Parker (who was archetypal AND an everyman) rip-off and the character will eventually fade away.

You know, I really don't think the "Iron Age vs. Silver Age" debate has a meaning anymore. I doubt either side really knows what it is they're arguing about, it's just something they do out of habit, like a reflex action.

[Augusto]

Personally, I don't think DC is trapped in the Silver Age at all. They're certainly acknowledging the rich history of their characters and incorporating some of the elements that were lost in the original post-Crisis rush to be more like Marvel, but I don't see that as a bad thing.

However, the depth of characterization and storytelling techniques are very different to the approach taken in the Silver Age. Even the much-maligned approach taken by Geoff Johns is more reminiscent of the storyteeling techniques employed in the 80's than the 60's. I'd argue that Johns is influenced more by writers like Claremont, Stern and Wolfman than by Drake, Haney, etc.

You stole my words.....:biggrin:

When you're in a place that you like and is good to you, you don't think of yourself as being "trapped."

There's a word for it..."home," I think.

Home IS the word.

http://www.yelims.com/IPB/Invision-Board-France-234.gif

[gwor]

Excellent points.

The style of writing today definitely doesn'y resemble Haney or Fox, and is directed at a mature and sophisticated target audience. It's simply the reuse of familiar concepts that might lead to unnecessarily confusing stories for new readers.

For low-selling books like Fables to survive, the industry needs to bring in more young readers to maintain overall health. That's why more comics should be directed at kids, who should be the target audience, IMO (off thread, sorry <g>).

[Paul Newell]

For low-selling books like Fables to survive, the industry needs to bring in more young readers to maintain overall health.
Just to let you know, a lot of low selling books, at least the ones you never see getting cancelled, actually survive on trade paperback sales.

[carabas]

For low-selling books like Fables to survive, the industry needs to bring in more young readers to maintain overall health. That's why more comics should be directed at kids, who should be the target audience, IMO (off thread, sorry <g>).Slight correction: they need to bring in new readers, not simply young ones. Preferably not kids even (as kids have less disposable income).

There's books in Vertigo and Wildstorm that have a potential audience of millions, if only those millions a) knew where to find these books and b) didn't automatically think of all comic as childish superhero stuff.

[Pól Rua]

Just to let you know, a lot of low selling books, at least the ones you never see getting cancelled, actually survive on trade paperback sales.

Exactly. I have a great many customers who spend a hell of a lot of money on comics but never buy a single 22-page comic magazine. And a lot of them are buying things like Fables.

[Babylon23]

Excellent points.

The style of writing today definitely doesn'y resemble Haney or Fox, and is directed at a mature and sophisticated target audience. It's simply the reuse of familiar concepts that might lead to unnecessarily confusing stories for new readers.

I've never really understood the 'confusing to new readers' argument, especially in relation to the multiverse. The first stories I ever read from DC were JLA/JSA crossovers and All-Star Squadron. All that was required for my young mind to understand what was happening was one sentence at the beginning that stated that there were parallel worlds, similar but subtly different.

I think the loss of editor's notes referencing past issues and a lack of recap pages is far more confusing to new readers. Also, with a proliferation of movies, cartoons etc. that could potentially bring in new readership, comics featuring the more iconic depictions of the characters in question should work in favour of attracting these readers. In that respect, familiar concepts should be beneficial.

[Pól Rua]

I've never really understood the 'confusing to new readers' argument, especially in relation to the multiverse. The first stories I ever read from DC were JLA/JSA crossovers and All-Star Squadron. All that was required for my young mind to understand what was happening was one sentence at the beginning that stated that there were parallel worlds, similar but subtly different.

I think the loss of editor's notes referencing past issues and a lack of recap pages is far more confusing to new readers. Also, with a proliferation of movies, cartoons etc. that could potentially bring in new readership, comics featuring the more iconic depictions of the characters in question should work in favour of attracting these readers. In that respect, familiar concepts should be beneficial.

Yup.
I got Earth-2 pretty much in one page.
"Two Supermen? Two Batmen? Two Flashes? How can this be?"

[gwor]

Just to let you know, a lot of low selling books, at least the ones you never see getting cancelled, actually survive on trade paperback sales.

Thanks for the info. If folk stop buying the monthly, waiting for the trade, how can the book possibly survive?

I agree that any 'confusion' would be minimal if the writers were better at clarifying things with expository dialogue or captions. Kinda like the early Silver days at Marvel, or when Shooter was in charge.

[Alex L]

Just to let you know, a lot of low selling books, at least the ones you never see getting cancelled, actually survive on trade paperback sales.

Thanks for the info. If folk stop buying the monthly, waiting for the trade, how can the book possibly survive?

Simple. Very, very low printing run for the monthlies, made up by sales to Barnes & Noble and Amazon and such.

In an extreme case, the floppies could even be a loss-leader kind of thing.

[dupersuper]

I think the loss of editor's notes referencing past issues and a lack of recap pages is far more confusing to new readers.

Here here! When I started reading, tracking down back issues using the handy captions was part of the fun. Some one would mention something that had happened, a little box would say; *see Superman #8, and I'd track it down to get the backstory. Good times...

[Powerboy]

The Silver Age was far from "crappy." The trouble a lot of new readers run into while checking out Golden/Silver Age work is that they try to directly compare the writing/art to modern standards. The Silver Age was probably the most wildly creative era in comic book history. Were there clunkers? Sure... but then again, the modern age had its 1990s

I also think people ignore the age group the Silver Age was written for when they judge it. They are bringing back a lot of SA stuff but in a different form that is interesting to older readers. I think its a fountain of ideas that was abandoned and now they need them again.

[Powerboy]

I've never really understood the 'confusing to new readers' argument, especially in relation to the multiverse. The first stories I ever read from DC were JLA/JSA crossovers and All-Star Squadron. All that was required for my young mind to understand what was happening was one sentence at the beginning that stated that there were parallel worlds, similar but subtly different.

I think the loss of editor's notes referencing past issues and a lack of recap pages is far more confusing to new readers. Also, with a proliferation of movies, cartoons etc. that could potentially bring in new readership, comics featuring the more iconic depictions of the characters in question should work in favour of attracting these readers. In that respect, familiar concepts should be beneficial.

I also don't get the "I'm confused" argument.

Have these people never watched an episode of Star Trek? Did they find the Mirror Universe and Spock with a beard too confusing? They need to stop watching sci fi and stop reading comics right now and take up reading westerns or something.

[Super Buddies Forever]

I don't think "too confusing" is the right argument. Too convulated might be a better way of phrasing it. I definitely see the appeal of maintaining one strong, core universe. The biggest effect of Crisis wasn't eliminating parallel worlds, because we still had them (they were just referred to as alternate realities, or hyper-timelines, or any other various phraseology), but combining the most prominent Earths into one.

And whether you think that was a good idea or not, I really think that's the crux of the argument: They didn't really think that having worlds where hamburgers eat people would turn off readers. They just wanted their entire history and the various publishers they picked up along the way molded into an unified reality.

[Buried Alien]

I don't think "too confusing" is the right argument. Too convulated might be a better way of phrasing it. I definitely see the appeal of maintaining one strong, core universe. The biggest effect of Crisis wasn't eliminating parallel worlds, because we still had them (they were just referred to as alternate realities, or hyper-timelines, or any other various phraseology), but combining the most prominent Earths into one.

And whether you think that was a good idea or not, I really think that's the crux of the argument: They didn't really think that having worlds where hamburgers eat people would turn off readers. They just wanted their entire history and the various publishers they picked up along the way molded into an unified reality.

Merging the parallel universes/timelines helped some things and hurt others. It made it much easier for characters from the Golden and Silver/Bronze Age to get together (no need to contrive a dimension-hopping story to get the JLA and JSA together), but some characters, such as Captain Marvel, were a little diminished by the merging (i.e. in the old Multiverse, Captain Marvel was a hero on par with Superman not only in power, but also in public stature...in his own Earth-S universe; on the unified Post-COIE Earth, Captain Marvel would *always* be far behind Superman in prominence).

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[earl]

Even the much-maligned approach taken by Geoff Johns is more reminiscent of the storyteeling techniques employed in the 80's than the 60's. I'd argue that Johns is influenced more by writers like Claremont, Stern nad Wolfman than by Drake, Haney, etc.


I think the current run on the Green Lantern books seems to be a big continuation of what Steve Englehart was doing with the characters in the 80s (with references to some of Wein/Gibbons and Alan Moore's stuff). It is like Johns hit a big reset button and picked up where those books left off.

That being said, I think style wise what Johns is doing on both Green Lantern and Action reminds me quite a bit of 80s John Byrne (especially the Fantastic Four stuff- in that he outlined new stories and directions based on core things from the original run of the book).

That is all fine by me.

To be honest, I think DC has kind of missed the boat on the 52 thing by not trying to expand out and do more extended series set in different worlds. I think there are a bunch of stories that could be done in that 'New Frontier' style. Think of something like Elseworlds but maybe not exactly 'limited', more like how someone does a series for Vertigo and let it have a decent long run for a beginning middle and end.

[Lurch]

Well, DC has laid the groundwork for a lot of future storytellers to work with. They pretty much invented the elseworlds concept and marketed it so that fans accepted it, and now there are a bunch of multiverse worlds that hold stories that can actually fit into some sort of continuity. I'm personally liking where Morrison is going with his writing, because his influences are the same ones I remember fondly. (He and I are the same age.) The silver age is a gold mine of ideas, and I don't see a thing wrong with taking those old concepts and updating them so that they fit into an acceptable marketing strategy. And they're pretty good stories to boot...

[Powerboy]

I don't think "too confusing" is the right argument. Too convulated might be a better way of phrasing it. I definitely see the appeal of maintaining one strong, core universe. The biggest effect of Crisis wasn't eliminating parallel worlds, because we still had them (they were just referred to as alternate realities, or hyper-timelines, or any other various phraseology), but combining the most prominent Earths into one.

And whether you think that was a good idea or not, I really think that's the crux of the argument: They didn't really think that having worlds where hamburgers eat people would turn off readers. They just wanted their entire history and the various publishers they picked up along the way molded into an unified reality.

I always thought the real mistake was the Crisis. Mind you, for years, I misunderstood the point of the COIE. I started reading DC again after a long absence because of the Crisis. Somehow, I never realized the main point was to wipe out the alternate realities. I thought the main point was to wipe out the Silver Age and say, "Hey, look, we are going to be 'realistic' and 'mature' now."
So you can perhaps understand my confusion when they immediately Post-COIE started doing stuff like the Justice League standup comedy routine and Lobo. I also thought it became more confusing.

I could easily comprehend alternate realities and how they'd crossover with each other. But yes, trying to compress them all into one reality with a bunch of convoluted histories and changing people's histories and then changing them again, etc., made things far worse than just having alternate realities. I could still follow it but it was annoying.

In our group of friends, we would joke about things like Superman was restarting but the Green Lanterns' history seemed largely intact. We'd joke that we could go back and read a JLA story from pre-Crisis and page 5, panel 3 still happened but panel 4 now never happened and panel 5 sort of happened but differently, etc.

So, ironically, by trying to 'make things less confusing', the COIE made things overwhelmingly more confusing. That's why I never got the point that it was to make things less confusing or to eliminate the other realities. As I said, I thought the point was to get people to start reading again and noticing DC was getting more like Marvel in terms of being for a somewhat older audience.

[Powerboy]

Well, DC has laid the groundwork for a lot of future storytellers to work with. They pretty much invented the elseworlds concept and marketed it so that fans accepted it, and now there are a bunch of multiverse worlds that hold stories that can actually fit into some sort of continuity. I'm personally liking where Morrison is going with his writing, because his influences are the same ones I remember fondly. (He and I are the same age.) The silver age is a gold mine of ideas, and I don't see a thing wrong with taking those old concepts and updating them so that they fit into an acceptable marketing strategy. And they're pretty good stories to boot...

That's a good point too. DC was publishing reams of alternate reality stuff but just saying that, for purposes of the main DC reality, they didn't exist.

[Abrojo]

As for the point at hand, I think DC is way too dismissive of what they built in the 1990's.

Excellent way to put my issue with the trend. Kyle and Wally being the 2 primary examples, with the old guys coming back, its inevitable the "new" guys take a step back all for the sake of the old fans disregarding what the ppl who grew with the new ones feel.

Marvel seems pretty fond of the Silver Age these days, too.

Its not the same though. Marvel has been bringing more attention to old seldomly used characters (Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Spider Woman, etc) but for new readers thats like introducing a new character they dont know very well, without messing with their current favourite characters.

[NotSuper]

I think the only real hero who got a less confusing history after Crisis was Black Canary. Her revised history made a lot more sense than having her migrate to a different Earth and believe she was her mother (!) for a time. Of course, I didn't like her replacing Diana in the JLA (and because of that, having her represent the JLA's legacy feels incredibly forced to me), but other than that her history made more sense.

But she's really the exception that proves the rule: Crisis screwed up a lot of characters. Power Girl became associated with freaking Atlantis, Hawkman became an impostor, and Donna Troy...well, let's not go there. While an entertaining story (easily one of the best and most influential crossovers ever), COIE saddled the DCU with a lot of problems.

As for the old guys coming back; again, you can't call it nostalgia. People who pine for the eighties and nineties are nostalgic too, just about different eras. Everyone wants characters and settings from the era they liked best (but not necessarily the one they grew up with). I, for instance, am a fan of the Bronze Age DCU and would like to see some of those elements come back. However, that doesn't mean I'm opposed to new concepts and characters.

I think what DC needs is another era like the Silver Age, not in style or content, but in creativity. As I said earlier, most of DC's main characters--even during the "Image Era" of the nineties--were modified Silver Age ones. They'd often change the characters under the mask and eliminate duplicates (sidekicks, comrades, heroes with the same name, super-pets, ect al), but the basic idea was still there.

DC needs another era that inspires future creators, just like the Silver Age did. Of course, that's easier said than done.