Shazam mythos

[uthan65]

I have always been a fan (praying to God that someone would write Captain Marvel well AND interesting simultaneously) but I have not liked Trials of Shazam or the new "darker" Captain Marvel (he will always be Junior in my opinion). Plus I just have no idea what they are going to try to do next with Mary.

Point being, after all this, I really can't think of a way that they could salvage the Marvel family in my mind.

[Ontir]

I've long been a proponent of going back to the way that DC introduced the Marvel Family into the DCU in the early 70's. Keep all of the Fawcett adventures as canon. Explain where they went, and what has happened in the meantime, then return them to the same city they left, decades later. The naiveté and innocence of the Marvels is a must. Without it, they don't work, which is why the current stuff will sputter and fail like every other attempt to re-create them hasn't worked.

It's sad, because there's so much to work with, and so little that's really been done.

[LtMarvel]

Psst! Shazam, the wizard, was already dead before Spectre "killed" him. Sooo...

One day, Billy was sitting in front of the moniters on the Rock of Eternity. An unknown guest startled Billy.

"Holy Moly! Your back!" exclaimed Billy. "But how? I thought you were dead!"

An old man chuckled. "I've been dead most of time you've known me, Billy. Remember that stone that fell the first day?"

"Yeah, but the Spectre" The wizard waved his hand to dismiss the question.

"I only needed time to reform. When the Rock of Eternity was destroyed, I thought that was the end, but you and others rebuilt the Rock, getting back was possibly. It only took some time and effort." The wizard paused when his eye caught all the new television screens Billy installed. A look from the old man made the boy blush.

"I see you've taken care of things in my place." The wizard suddenly frowned. " This is not a job for a boy. You should be on Earth, playing games and chasing girls. You have family, too..."

The wizard looked right at Boy. "Billy, why can't I sense Mary?"

"She lost her powers about a year after you disappeared. Freddy, too. Freddy earned his back, though. I helped guide him. Mary...Cap nor I could see a path for Mary to regain hers. She was upset and went out to find power on her own. It...it didn't turn out well."

"I can sense the death of heroes. I'm so sorry about Mary, Billy."

"Oh no, sir, she's not dead."

Shazam was confused. "The death I sense... Historma!" Shazam said with a clap, and suddenly a picture of Mary in her black costume appeared. She was flying through the air, to speculate of what Mary was up to only made Billy shudder.

"Whose death do I sense?" Another clap of hands, like thunder, and the view changed to the deaths of Isis and Osirus of the Black Marvel Family. A few more commands and claps revealed Mary's recent history, too.

"Only in my absense would he dare try such a scheme."

"Who sir?"

"Darseid. I'm afraid he took advantage of you, Billy. While you were defending my home. Darkseid severed her link to our power. Now, Mary is in grave danger."

"Step outside and say my name. Your power will be like it was before. So will Freddy, the next time he tries to use it (better go and tell him). Then the two of you must stop and help Mary. Now go." With the last sentence, Billy saw the old light in the wizard's eyes and the thunder in his voice.

Billy ran out of the tunnel and yelled "Shazam!" A flash of light and burst of thunder let loose an imposing man clad in red and gold where young Billy was. Grim faced, Captain Marvel lept in to the air, heading for Earth and first Freddy, and then Mary.

After Cap was certain he was at top speed and on the right heading, he allowed a split second glance of himself. The old gold armbands and red tunic and white cape. A quick smile escaped the side of his mouth. "Feels right, too." Then Cap went serious, focused on his dangerous journey.

[Limelantern]

I have always thought that the whole Captain Marvel story just needed Billy and Fawcett city updated. I never understood why the city was a nightmarish 50's era. Just update the city to a modern setting, make Billy a normal fallable (as in he makes the same mistakes kids make, not make him dark and brooding like other modern heroes) kid in modern school. Wouldn't that make the things much much more relatable? And possible bring newer readers as well?

Other than that, I wouldn't change the Captain Marvel, Shazam family part from the ordinary status quo

[TROUBLEZ]

The naiveté and innocence of the Marvels is a must. Without it, they don't work, which is why the current stuff will sputter and fail like every other attempt to re-create them hasn't worked.

I don't think that will work. Didn't they try that back in the day with CC Beck on the book, or someone with his style? I don't think it sold well. Plus, the three Marvels had their own style. Captain Marvel was the big red cheese, Junior had the darker stories, and Mary had the most juvenile stories. Not to mention, many other comic characters from that era also seemed innocent.
I don't agree with making them darker, but keeping them exactly the way they were in the 40s, but today, might seem too campy.



It's sad, because there's so much to work with, and so little that's really been done.

It's funny, because Miracleman/Marvelman, who is a copy of Captain Marvel, had one modern revival in the 80s by a smaller publisher, and it's become one of the most revered modern superhero stories.

I agree not much has been done but either way, Captain Marvel won't work well in the DCU. Even though Superman and Capt. Marvel are very different, they serve the same purpose of being the strongest hero in their respective world. For example, Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are the stars of big events at DC. The DCU revolves around Superman. He's usually the one who saves the entire universe. And yet, here is Captain Marvel, who is Superman's equal, and he never does anything as big as Superman does. DC doesn't want to push aside their cashcow Supes, and star Captain Marvel saving the Universe in Crisis, so he appears second rate to the readers.

[uthan65]

Actually, I didn't think of that, and it is a good solution for the current situation, but I don't see DC saying "yeah, all that effort we put into re-imagining the characters, yeah, it all sucked, so here is the new idea."

Unless they back track to Batman's nightfall, and Nightwing becoming Batman for a short period, but the Marvel family is not quite as popular as the whole Bat-roster, so I don't know.

[TROUBLEZ]

IF Captain Marvel had the rights to his own name, and IF he belonged to an independent publisher, say Dark Horse/Image/etc, I'm certain, that with the original mythos intact, and the ability to be the main attraction in his own universe and continutiy, the comic could be very successful.

Since that's not going to happen I think DC did make some good changes considering that they didn't want a rival to Superman. One, making him a strongman in the magic arena is cool, and two, the name change was a good idea. But retiring Billy, taking away from the magic word concept, making the first superhero family smaller, taking Freddy out of the Junior role, was, IMO a bad idea.

[carabas]

making the first superhero family smaller,I don't think it's gotten smaller, unles you count the Wizard. Mary Marvel will be most likely come to her senses once Final Crisis winds down.

taking away from the magic word concept,I think I've missed this. He still shouts SHAZAM to activate his powers, right, SHAZAM still being an acronym for a bunch of gods?

taking Freddy out of the Junior role,Well, he was the eldest of the gang...

[TROUBLEZ]

I don't think it's gotten smaller, unles you count the Wizard. Mary Marvel will be most likely come to her senses once Final Crisis winds down.
I think I've missed this. He still shouts SHAZAM to activate his powers, right, SHAZAM still being an acronym for a bunch of gods?
Well, he was the eldest of the gang...

Before it was a trio of superheroes in action, now it might be a duo (Mary and Freddy, with Cap just being the wizard.

And about his magic word, they changed the rules. Now he can "think" the word and transform, or if he says it by accident or is tricked into saying it, it won't trigger his transformation because now it only works if he means it.

[Bat-Reader]

I haven't read The Trails Of Shazam yet so i can't really talk about the light side of the family but i love what they have done with Black Adam since 52... Black Marvel family was great, WWIII was ok and Black Adam The Dark Age was awesome. I can't get enough of Black Adam.

[Ontir]

I don't think that will work. Didn't they try that back in the day with CC Beck on the book, or someone with his style? I don't think it sold well. Plus, the three Marvels had their own style. Captain Marvel was the big red cheese, Junior had the darker stories, and Mary had the most juvenile stories. Not to mention, many other comic characters from that era also seemed innocent.
I don't agree with making them darker, but keeping them exactly the way they were in the 40s, but today, might seem too campy.

There's more to it than what I posted here, but that's all I'm going to post here. It would work, though.

[Mr.EZ]

It'd be very easy to salvage Captain Marvel, and it would only require one minor tweak.

When Billy says "Shazam" he becomes Billy with all the powers. A 16 year old Cap that looks 16. It would seperate him from Superman and possibly bring in Superboy fans.

Mary and Freddy would need something a little more drastic, I think.

[vazel]

I feel the same way. The only way the Marvel family can be salvaged is by rebooting them and pretending Trials of Shazam never happened.

[carabas]

And about his magic word, they changed the rules. Now he can "think" the word and transform, or if he says it by accident or is tricked into saying it, it won't trigger his transformation because now it only works if he means it.I don't see how this can possibly be a bad thing. Things like Captain Marvel Jr. not being able to say his name was always stupid, even by golden age standards.
Sometimes new really does mean improved.

[jam]

I'm not clever enough to figure out why Capt. Marvel worked back in the Fawcett days and why that same approach doesn't work now.

Could it be DC hasn't really given that approach a fair trial?

Why do Archie comics still work? In the Digests, they reprint some of the earlier stuff and it seems just as good as the rest (of course, in my book, anything by Don DeCarlo is better than the rest ...)

I don't think it's a good idea to re-invent the Marvels for the present day; it doesn't seem to work either. Making Capt. Marvel another Superman .. what's the point? You just loose whatever uniqueness he had.

I don't follow the modern Shazam stuff. (I did follow Ordway, but that's probably more because I'm an Ordway fan ...). So the news that Captain Marvel Jr. has to mean it when he says "Captain Marvel Jr." in order to change, or else he just thinks it ... why not just give him the same magic word??? and be done with it??

[carabas]

Why do Archie comics still work? In the Digests, they reprint some of the earlier stuff and it seems just as good as the restI think that Archie's primary audience today still is kids, and Captain Marvel's is 20-50 years olds.

[AllisterH]

I tend to disagree with those that think the original 40s concept would work.

Mainly because the mythos itself is WIDELY used in the DCU. Captain Nazi is the premiere Nazi villain, Sivana gets serious play (writers seem to have more fun with Sivana than Luthor) and then there's Black Adam.

Rebooting Shazam to its own universe circa its glory days also means the rest of the mythos doesnt get its wide exposure.

Sure, there have been missteps with CM (I actually liked Trials) but really, look at how much play the entire mythos gets at DCU. Compared to say Green Lantern, Flash etc,I'd argue that the ENTIRE Captain Marvel mythos gets the most use by other writers other tha Superman and Batman.

[carabas]

I think there no longer is a mythos in that sense. Captain Nazi is just another supervillain (I didn't even know he was a Captain Marvel villain). Sivana hasn't really been associated with Marvel in ages. Black Adam? He's really come into his own in recent years. He really doesn't need the other Marvels anymore.
Mr. Mind? He grew up and triedto eat the multiverse.

Also, none of these characters have even close to the level golden age sillynes that the Marvel family does (the caterpillar excepted).

[uthan65]

Well, the reason CM worked in the 40s was because all the kids wanted to be Superman, but they couldn't identify with Clark Kent, that's when Billy Batson comes in. It sold like mad because it was exactly what the target audience wanted.

Then, when they brought him back in the 70s they just kept, more or less, the same angle of the character. The problem was that by that point comics had grown up, Spider-man couldn't pay his rent, Reed and Sue were having marital problems, Green Arrow was combating a corrupt government, and racism was huge with the X-men and Green Lantern. The target audience had changed from little kids who want to be Superman into a whole bunch of adults who wanted to see their heroes deal with societies problems, not just punch giant-robots in the face, (ok, maybe a few giant-robots).

Now, the way it is, they tried sooooo hard for years to keep the innocent kid angle of Cap that when they try to get him to grow up they haven't done it gradually (which I think they should have [well, they did do it gradual, but not well]) they did it all at once.

At this point it is Cap's supporting cast and rogue's gallery that have taken their place in the DCU, while he has been left in the dust (or the Rock of Eternity).

Personally, I would like to see him written the way he was in "First Thunder," but usually he is written with terrible dialogue and as a side-note, or he is over powered (like when he wiped all of Superman's rogue's gallery without effort in "Justice"). I hate to admit it, but, the best I have ever seen of him was when he was a mind-controlled lunatic in "Kingdom Come."

[TROUBLEZ]

I don't see how this can possibly be a bad thing. Things like Captain Marvel Jr. not being able to say his name was always stupid, even by golden age standards.
Sometimes new really does mean improved.

I was surprised to find out that Capt. Marvel Jr's magic word was his own name. I was thinking, "that sucks. He can't even say his own name!?"

So I would have probably agreed with you here, except that I've recently read Miracleman by Alan Moore. Miracleman is basically the British version of Captain Marvel, and Moore used the magic word concept really well, and in ways I would never have thought of. If you haven't read it, you should.

My point being, that capable writers would play up that unique aspect and explore it's potential. Less writers throw it out because they don't how to use it.

[carabas]

Personally, I would like to see him written the way he was in "First Thunder," but usually he is written with terrible dialogue and as a side-note, or he is over powered (like when he wiped all of Superman's rogue's gallery without effort in "Justice"). I hate to admit it, but, the best I have ever seen of him was when he was a mind-controlled lunatic in "Kingdom Come."
I liked him best when Johns wrote him in JSA. The Marvel/Black Adam dynamic was really nice there, especially Adam's reaction to finding Marvel's stil a kid. The blosoming romance with Stargirl was great too, until it was cut short due to secret identity problems.


Miracleman... If you haven't read it, you should.Yeah... some small technical problems there.

[jam]

There's been a couple of comments on target audiences, and I think these are telling.

If you are saying in the 40's the target audience was "kids", fair enough. But, as said earlier, "comics have grown up", and the target audience is now 20-50 year olds.

Perhaps Captain Marvel is simply an anachronism as far as the main audience is concerned. Any attempts to bring him in line with that audience usually feels just plain wrong as anyone familiar with the character associates him, for better or for worst, with "whimsy". Also, what's the point of having another Superman clone?

You say Archie succeeds because it's target audience hasn't changed. Maybe DC need to promote Captain Marvel to that Archie audience, and who knows -- maybe the new Johnny DC CM series will be just the ticket as far as that's concerned.

For myself, I enjoy the later CM stories with lovely artwork by C.C. Beck and Kurt Schaffenberger ... but whether I would buy an on-going series of same, I dunno? Maybe if they were in the Archie Double Digest format?

[Bat-Reader]

--triple post--

[Bat-Reader]

--triple post--

[Bat-Reader]

There was rummor that a Shazam movie's on the way. What happend to it ? a movie can rise the sells pretty well.

[vazel]

They take time. It's going to come out next year.

[Bat-Reader]

They take time. It's going to come out next year.

Great. :) i hope Black Adam will be in it.

[Pól Rua]

You say Archie succeeds because it's target audience hasn't changed. Maybe DC need to promote Captain Marvel to that Archie audience, and who knows -- maybe the new Johnny DC CM series will be just the ticket as far as that's concerned.

For myself, I enjoy the later CM stories with lovely artwork by C.C. Beck and Kurt Schaffenberger ... but whether I would buy an on-going series of same, I dunno? Maybe if they were in the Archie Double Digest format?

I think this would be a great idea.

[gideon]

I seem to be in the minority. I tried to read the earlier Captain Marvel works, and couldn't get into them. Not sure why, just didn't click. I agree that First Thunder was an excellent story, but I've been loving the Trials mini, and how magic is reworked. It's more 'real' in a sense. With Billy as the Wizard, there are things that would be changed. Who knew better then him how annoying somethings were, like having to say it aloud to change.

Magic is meant to bend to wills of those strong enough, it's something DC has always had in it's universe. So, the fact that these changes are occurring for the Marvels, for me, isn't bad, it's more about time they did it.

I will be reading the new stories when they come, and hope it's soon.