Countdown Continuity Confusion (may contain spoilers)

[Karen El]

I just read Countdown #1 and I can't work out where it fits in with other comics. Like weren't all the New Gods supposed to be dying to make way for the Fifth World? And if so, why is Forager looking so healthy? And is the Donna Troy who signs up for the Monitor Monitors the same one in Titans? And if so, how do they fit together, and does she change costumes depending which group she's working with?

And then half the villains in Salvation Run are popping up elsewhere. Even the dead ones. And I can't help feeling that the last issue of Death of the New Gods is going to be a bit of an anticlimax, since Darkseid already had his final showdown in Countdown and the only New Gods that are left are Orion, Forager, and a bunch of parademons that are picking fights in Salvation Run, rather than, I don't know, being at all bothered that their entire civilisation has been destroyed.

I'm confused.

[Charles RB]

Does it at least have a proper ending making internal sense, or does it just go "NOW BUY FINAL CRISIS!"?

[Sabrinaset]

Hey! This thread said it might contain Spoilers, but she's nowhere to be found! Okay, I better do something about it!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f9/SpoilerR80.jpg/200px-SpoilerR80.jpg

Okay, NOW it contains a Spoiler!

[Jack Zodiac]

You haven't read the last issue of Death of the New Gods yet? It's a mighty big let down. Neat art and a nice, long, evil monologue from Darkseid, but a totally fucking lame ending that's counter-productive to whatever grand idea they have for Kirby's Fourth World/Grant's Fifth World.

And yeah, all of Countdown was a mess. A total clusterfuck so far as continuity (and creativity) is concerned. Kyle, Donna, and Ray all have things going on in other books that will probably never, ever cross over into their monitor monitoring duties. And Forager will be completely forgotten by next week. Shit, I forgot about her every week I flipped through that book. It's possible somebody has an idea for her, but not very likely.

I think Ray and Donna said it best.

Ray: "We've been through a lot..."
Donna: "And... ? Yeah... No answer. Bugs the hell out of me, too."

You and seventy thousand readers, lady.

[jerrymcl89]

I think the continuity between DotNG and Countdown sort of works - Countdown #2 just comes after DotNG #8, even though it was released before it. But the continuity of Donna Troy and Kyle Rayner doesn't really work at all.

[Karen El]

You haven't read the last issue of Death of the New Gods yet? It's a mighty big let down. Neat art and a nice, long, evil monologue from Darkseid, but a totally fucking lame ending that's counter-productive to whatever grand idea they have for Kirby's Fourth World/Grant's Fifth World.

And yeah, all of Countdown was a mess. A total clusterfuck so far as continuity (and creativity) is concerned. Kyle, Donna, and Ray all have things going on in other books that will probably never, ever cross over into their monitor monitoring duties. And Forager will be completely forgotten by next week. Shit, I forgot about her every week I flipped through that book. It's possible somebody has an idea for her, but not very likely.

I haven't seen DoNG #8 yet. We don't get our Wednesday delivery of comics until Thursday in the UK. I have to say, if the last issue is lame, at least it will be in line with every other issue.

I kinda liked Forager. She could have been fun if developed properly in an "innocent abroad" way. As it is, it would be only a matter of time before someone completed her transition to hot babe by having it turn out that the chitinous part of her face was only a mask and she had the face of a supermodel all along.

[Sabrinaset]

I just can never get over a comic wiith the acronym DoNG! I mean, it sorta fits, doesn't it?

[Cam63]

WaNG ? OldfeLLA ?

[Solaris]

TuRD?

(Total Unbelievable Reality Dislocation)

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Even Didio in his column basically acknowledged that Countdown didn't work. I mean, he's KINDA apologizing for it.

And Death Of The New Gods is where the Orion Killing Darksied in Metropolis battle should have happened. It was the most epic,signature piece of the whole Death Of storylines.... why the heck place it in a lame duck series?!?!!

[LewisH]

happened in Countdown that will probably be acknowledged in other series is the death of the original Trickster, James Jesse. Winick ALWAYS ignores continuity from books he isn't personally writing and sometimes even from books he is writing so don't expect Donna Troy's Titans appearances to coincide with any kind of Monitor watching. After all they pretty much ignored all the Brave New World stuff that involved her. This will be no different. The writers on Green Lantern and Green Lantern Corps have more than enough going on without Monitors. And unless Ray Palmer is going to be taking over the Atom title we won't see anything out of him either. As for Forager, just like Forerunner she is almost certainly heading for comic book limbo only to be taken out of the box
when this week's villain of the century needs to prove how cool he is by killing
come c-list character.

Oh well. Morrison's probably going to blow it all up so they can start over again anyway so no worries.

[shrike]

Even Dini has bad weeks, I guess.

Just unfortunate he had 52 of them consecutively.

[TCJohnson]

And unless Ray Palmer is going to be taking over the Atom title we won't see anything out of him either.

Just FYI, James Robinson said Ray Palmer will be a part of his new Justice League series.

[LewisH]

I doubt he will be letting this Monitor idea interfere with the stories he wishes to tell. Or to put it another way. "We've just completed a meandering 51 week story that never really went anywhere or did anything. Let us never speak of it again."

[Linkara]

Even Dini has bad weeks, I guess.

Just unfortunate he had 52 of them consecutively.

In fairness, he only wrote like three of them.

[Jack Zodiac]

I haven't seen DoNG #8 yet. We don't get our Wednesday delivery of comics until Thursday in the UK. I have to say, if the last issue is lame, at least it will be in line with every other issue.

The ending was lame. The art was pretty good cosmic Starlin, and the "final battle" was pretty epic, with a lot of evil monologuing from Darkseid, but as an end to a story, it... wasn't.

I kinda liked Forager. She could have been fun if developed properly in an "innocent abroad" way. As it is, it would be only a matter of time before someone completed her transition to hot babe by having it turn out that the chitinous part of her face was only a mask and she had the face of a supermodel all along.

Even with the bug face, she was built like a supermodel; but yeah, I'm sure she'd be a pink version of Mantis if she stuck around. Don't count on that happenin', though.

In fairness, he only wrote like three of them.

He was project lead. That puts all of the blame squarely on him. Him and D Didi. The various writers did what they could with the plot, but when you're brainstorming with a craptastic plot like "let's spend a year killing the New Gods, and pad it with some other stuff," you can only do so much. No one's walking away from this a winner, though.

[TCJohnson]

I doubt he will be letting this Monitor idea interfere with the stories he wishes to tell.

True Or to put it another way. "We've just completed a meandering 51 week story that never really went anywhere or did anything. Let us never speak of it again."

Morrison did say that the Monitors will be featured in Final Crisis.

I think this entire series was just to set things up for the way Grant Morrison wants it to be at the beginning of Final Crisis.

From what I hear, a good chunk of the blame also falls at Grant Morrison's feet because he kept changing Final Crisis, which meant they had to keep changing things in Countdown. That is part of the reason why they are having #0, in incorporate the latest changes by Morrison.

[LewisH]

Both DC and Marvel used a pretty good model for lead ins to series with short mini-series to set things up followed by the series itself. Marvel did it better with the leads into Annhilation and Annhilation Conquest but the lead ins to Infinite Crisis weren't bad either.

The wanted this series to be too many things: the spine of the DCU interweaving with everything for a year, the lead in to Final Crisis and a compelling set of
self contained stories as well. It's the old "mouse designed by a committee" problem.

They were so surprised and excited by the success of 52 that they couldn't resist the potential profit. Unfortunately, they ignored most of what made 52 work.
As a result they ended up with an inferior product and arguably spoiled two other
storylines as well (Sinestro Corps War and Death of the New Gods).

If instead of trying to produce this hydra every week, they had produced 4 minis
instead, don't you think it would have worked better? They would not have needed to try to make all the tie ins to other on-going stories such as Amazon's Attack. They would not have had to pad things out and give us meaningless
and gratuitous one shots. They could have just told the stories of the return of OMAC, the Darkseid vs Monitors vs Monarch story, the Piper-Trickster story,
and the corruption of Mary Marvel story. When needed the minis could have intersected. Jimmy Olsen's story would have been part of the Death of the New Gods mini which could have expanded to cover the part of the story that was
told in Countdown. Each story would have had a dedicated team, making for better art, script and story.

[Usernamessd]

True

Morrison did say that the Monitors will be featured in Final Crisis.

I think this entire series was just to set things up for the way Grant Morrison wants it to be at the beginning of Final Crisis.

From what I hear, a good chunk of the blame also falls at Grant Morrison's feet because he kept changing Final Crisis, which meant they had to keep changing things in Countdown. That is part of the reason why they are having #0, in incorporate the latest changes by Morrison.

We're having #0 because countdown's story "Wrapped-up" in #1 - Its now called DCU #0 because it will focus on events not only leading to FC but in the DCU.

[stamen]

I want a refund. Yuck.

For the record, I thought it started well. Intriguing premises and chance to shine a spotlight on some under-used characters. It didn't take very long though for that feeling to wear off, but like a fool, I kept on buying. At first, I thought, "Hey, this can't stay terrible. It's taking us someplace."

It certainly did take us... right to the bottom of $156 trash heap of books cluttering up my collection.

[Sarah Beach]

"Monitoring the Monitors" has to be the stupidest idea around. Why? I don't care about the Monitors! I don't want to care about the Monitors.

I want stories about my heroes, fighting things that make a bit more sense than some idiotic group ("learning their individuality") out there beyond the time/space continuum, that have nothing to do with humanity and in fact sneer at humans.

Can't we just forget about them? Please? Because if I see stories about Donna chasing after Monitors, I'm going to want to do violence to someone (editorial).

And couldn't we have dropped Jason Todd in some intersitial crack somewhere, losing him forever? Booooooooring.

After reading this week's Batman, and thinking of the 4 issue rip-off of Agatha Christie that Grant Morrison inflicted on readers recently, I'm starting to think that Grant Morrison is NOT "all that hot stuff" he's been cracked up to be. But that's a rant I'll save for my blog on MySpace, which I mean to update tonight.

[Karen El]

Okay, I've read DoNG #8 now and I'm still confused. There are quite specific references to ALL the New Gods being dead (except for Darkseid who doesn't get killed until the previous week in the issue of Countdown that follows this first), so how come Forager is still breathing?

And Forager in Countdown #1 - Here she is, her entire species has just been exterminated, her world's god and devil have just had the final throwdown, her entire world, all its culture and history, has been destroyed, and how does she deal with it? She breaks up with her boyfriend because she's kinda bored. Couldn't she get at least a couple of panels of grief?

[buttler]

Forager isn't a New God, but another insectoid species entirely that just happened to evolve on New Genesis. So she's neither here nor there as far as that tally goes.

How her survival fits in with the destruction of her planet, on the other hand -- well, sucks for her, I guess.

[Charles RB]

After reading this week's Batman, and thinking of the 4 issue rip-off of Agatha Christie that Grant Morrison inflicted on readers recently

What made it a Christie rip-off? "Murder mystery in isolated place" on its own doesn't sound like one.

[Sarah Beach]

What made it a Christie rip-off? "Murder mystery in isolated place" on its own doesn't sound like one.

Then you've never read And Then There Were None (also known as Ten Little Indians)?

Small group of people reunited on a remote island by mysterious host, who then turns up dead (apparently). Then they find all means of departure gone, no communication back to civilization, and members of the party are killed off one by one. Resolution: the host isn't actually dead, and is killing everyone off in some revenge cause.

It happens to be the first Christie I ever read, and the plot has been borrowed umpteen zillion times. I kept hoping that Morrison, with his reputation for being so brilliant, would at least vary some of the beats, but nope... beat for beat, right out of Christie.

Bah.

[buttler]

Then you've never read And Then There Were None (also known as Ten Little Indians)?

Small group of people reunited on a remote island by mysterious host, who then turns up dead (apparently). Then they find all means of departure gone, no communication back to civilization, and members of the party are killed off one by one. Resolution: the host isn't actually dead, and is killing everyone off in some revenge cause.

Interestingly, that book originally had a much more offensive name. It was first published as Ten Little N_____s (only with the racial epithet intact, of course), and the island was even called N_____ Island. Because Agatha Christie is so very charming.

[Karen El]

Interestingly, that book originally had a much more offensive name. It was first published as Ten Little N_____s (only with the racial epithet intact, of course), and the island was even called N_____ Island. Because Agatha Christie is so very charming.

I'm not particularly fond of Agatha Christie, but I do think it's unfair to suggest that she is being deliberately racist here. The word itself was not generally considered offensive in 1939 when the book was first published, at least in the UK. It was even adapted for TV twice under that title.

Intruigingly, I find that a strikingly similar story predates Christie's book. The 1933 adaptation of the Sherlock Holmes story The Study in Scarlet is a lot closer to Christie's as yet unwritten novel than it is to the story it's based on.

[Charles RB]

Resolution: the host isn't actually dead, and is killing everyone off in some revenge cause.

Okay, that does make it a rip-off.

I can't find "people on isolated island, stranded and being picked off" as an inherent Christie rip-off (even if she got their first) because that would mean one of the Eighth Doctor strips would be a rip-off, and Ten Little Indians presumably didn't have the murders being done by a vampire-mutant and his monkey hordes who intend to escalate WW2.

The word itself was not generally considered offensive in 1939 when the book was first published, at least in the UK.

See also: Nigger the dog from The Dam Busters, the real name of the real guy's real dog. Which got a great bit in The Office where David Brent abruptly turns to the camera to say he's not racist, that was the dog's name, "and anyway it was in the 40s when racism wasn't bad".

[LewisH]

doing a Batman story based on a classic mystery? It's been done before sucessfully. The Morrison story was a good take on the And Then There Were None plot. I'm pretty sure, if I dig, I can find more than one example of that plot being used in comics before.

Here's some news: THERE ARE NO NEW IDEAS. Every comic story ever told has its analog in some older work of fiction. Everything is either a retelling of
the Illiad, the Odyssey, Beowulf, or something that Shakespeare wrote. Oh, and most of what Shakespeare wrote is based on earlier works as well. Presumably all those earlier works are based on oral traditions passed down for centuries.

All the differences come down to style NOT to content. If you don't like Morrisons style of writing, so be it. However, complaining that a writes is not "original" is a non-starter in my book.

[Gail Simone]

I didn't know that about Agatha Christie. That blows.

Countdown is odd for a number of reasons. I liked some of the threads, but had a very hard time keeping up with some of it. I was originally supposed to write some of the issues, the Atom-centric ones, but things got in the way and it didn't happen, and I have to say I'm kind of glad because I didn't really have a feel for the overarcing story.

I think it was a neat idea, and some of it read quite well. There's a lot of talent on the book.

I think in the end TRINITY may stand up as the best of these weeklies, just because it's consistently one writer, and a great writer, in Kurt Busiek.

[Sarah Beach]

doing a Batman story based on a classic mystery? It's been done before sucessfully. The Morrison story was a good take on the And Then There Were None plot. I'm pretty sure, if I dig, I can find more than one example of that plot being used in comics before.

Here's some news: THERE ARE NO NEW IDEAS. Every comic story ever told has its analog in some older work of fiction. Everything is either a retelling of
the Illiad, the Odyssey, Beowulf, or something that Shakespeare wrote. Oh, and most of what Shakespeare wrote is based on earlier works as well. Presumably all those earlier works are based on oral traditions passed down for centuries.

All the differences come down to style NOT to content. If you don't like Morrisons style of writing, so be it. However, complaining that a writes is not "original" is a non-starter in my book.

I'm afraid you're missing my point then. I do NOT have objections to people doing riffs on older works, if they are cleverly and smartly done. The film Clueless is a very charming riff on Jane Austen's Emma. And it stands well as a work in and of itself, because it's characters are strong. But because of Morrison's high reputation as a writer (deserved, as I have been reading other of his work too), I expected considerably more from him on this.

I DO NOT LIKE IT when I can predict the outcome of a story at the end of the first part of it! I kept hoping that he would put a new twist to the story, and surprise me. I am objecting to his PREDICTABILITY, not his basing the story on Christie. And that is not about "style", nor a demand for "originality". It is a demand for better writing from someone who is quite capable of it. Frankly, I feel he "phoned in" that story.

PS: I have a Masters in English, so you don't need to tell me "There are no new stories." Not news to me. My stance is "There are only seven stories under the sun", but that it is the unique vision and spin each writer brings that makes stories fresh. I'm saying that Morrison DID NOT DO THAT, to a story pattern that is relatively FAMOUS, from a famous, widely read author. And that is where I feel he failed.

[Jack Zodiac]

I think in the end TRINITY may stand up as the best of these weeklies, just because it's consistently one writer, and a great writer, in Kurt Busiek.

So far as quality is concerned, I think you're right. But I guarantee, after Countdown, it won't do nearly the numbers it'll deserve to. Which is a shame.

[Charles RB]

What exactly is wrong with doing a Batman story based on a classic mystery?

Well, if it's got the same outcome and culprit, then what's wrong is that it's lazy and those who read Ten Little Indians will figure out the plot (which stops it being a mystery). Unless the mystery of whodunnit isn't the point of the plot, but as a Batman comic I assume it would be.

[Sarah Beach]

Well, if it's got the same outcome and culprit, then what's wrong is that it's lazy and those who read Ten Little Indians will figure out the plot (which stops it being a mystery). Unless the mystery of whodunnit isn't the point of the plot, but as a Batman comic I assume it would be.

EXACTLY!!

A much better riff would be to have Batman, in the first issue of the arc, go "Hmmm. This is just like that Agatha Christie story. Not terribly imaginitive of X. I wonder why he's trying to kill all of us. And where's his hidden chamber?"

That would have pushed the story to a different level, where the Christie plot would be used as the jumping-off point, rather than the whole plot.

I will admit that the "man behind the mask" -- that was driving the killer in the arc, the "Black Glove" was being set up in that story. But that leads me to a whole 'nother rant, which I won't drag here, but will put on my blog.

[Charles RB]

A much better riff would be to have Batman, in the first issue of the arc, go "Hmmm. This is just like that Agatha Christie story. Not terribly imaginitive of X. I wonder why he's trying to kill all of us. And where's his hidden chamber?"

That would've been fun - extra fun if it turned out that's what the killer wanted Batman to think...

[TCJohnson]

After reading this week's Batman, and thinking of the 4 issue rip-off of Agatha Christie that Grant Morrison inflicted on readers recently, I'm starting to think that Grant Morrison is NOT "all that hot stuff" he's been cracked up to be. But that's a rant I'll save for my blog on MySpace, which I mean to update tonight.

Is this the Batman R.I.P. story line you are talking about? Or the one before it?

I haven't been reading Batman.

[Jack Zodiac]

This was "Club of Heroes." The four issue story arc where Batman and Robin, and then all of the various "Batmen of All Nations" wind up on the island of the man who put their club together decades ago only to find he's been murdered and, one by one, the rest of them are targeted. I'd consider it more of an homage than a rip-off though, just... not a very clever one. In terms of pure storytelling, however, it was a pretty great arc with some really twisted and bizarre stuff happening to these goofy 50s characters, with fucking awesome art by J.H. Williams III.

[MacQuarrie]

Then you've never read And Then There Were None (also known as Ten Little Indians)?

Small group of people reunited on a remote island by mysterious host, who then turns up dead (apparently). Then they find all means of departure gone, no communication back to civilization, and members of the party are killed off one by one. Resolution: the host isn't actually dead, and is killing everyone off in some revenge cause.

It happens to be the first Christie I ever read, and the plot has been borrowed umpteen zillion times. I kept hoping that Morrison, with his reputation for being so brilliant, would at least vary some of the beats, but nope... beat for beat, right out of Christie.

Bah.
I like the musical version.

Something's Afoot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Something's_Afoot)

Something's afoot, and the butler didn't do it!

[MPagar]

Countdown has jaded me on weekly comics. Even with Busiek and Bagley doing the main portion of Trinity, I'm having strong doubts about it. I hope to be proven wrong.

[Charles RB]

Countdown has jaded me on weekly comics.

It being a weekly has nothing to do with it being crap - deciding to do a 52-part weekly limited series building in a Big Epic that will lead into another Epic rather than an ending and has to stretch everything out to 52 weeks, on the other hand...

Seriously, would it have really been the end of the world if some of the characters & plots had ended many issues earlier, and they'd gone onto another one? Maybe even come back to the first one later?

[Chiroptera]

I think in the end TRINITY may stand up as the best of these weeklies, just because it's consistently one writer, and a great writer, in Kurt Busiek.

*listens to the Hallelujah chorus play suddenly*


Wow... Busiek's got some awesome special effects teams working for him! :biggrin:
I really can't wait for Trinity.

[the4thpip]

So, did Apokolypse get infected with Brother Eye and blown up by the Pied Piper using a Queen song, or did it stay unchanged until the Source crashed it into New Genesis?

[MPagar]

The former, form what I've been told.

[Karen El]

The former, form what I've been told.

You need to stop listening to those voices.