Mark Waid: Bart Allen's death "insanely pointless and gratuitous"

[Kevinroc]

In an interview with CBR, Waid discusses many issues ranging from BOOM! to his return to the Flash.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=16141

Anyways, when discussing why his recent Flash run didn't excite readers, Waid gives us his thoughts.


How would you describe your brief return to “The Flash” last year, in which you focused heavily on the Flash’s super-powered children?

Boy, talk about a confluence of bad timing. Again, everyone involved tried his or her best, and I still think bringing the kids onstage was a good idea. But the majority of fans apparently just wanted “The Flash” the way it used to be. I miscalculated. I honestly thought that because I made my bones with that book the first time out by doing things that no one else was doing, I should try that approach again. Bzzzt. Wrong answer.

We were also dealing with the bad fallout of the catastrophic “Flash: The Fastest Plummeting Sales Alive” relaunch.

Indeed, "The Flash: The Fastest Man Alive" debuted at over 100K and had fallen to 30K by the time it was "cancelled" and "The Flash" returned with its original numbering.

And then there was Bart Allen’s insanely pointless and gratuitous death. At this point I just don’t know what else you can do with the book, though I do think if anyone can make it great, it’s [current writer] Tom Peyer. Tom, as Grant Morrison and I keep saying, is the most talented comics writer out there who isn’t a household name. And he should be. Tom will make that book shine. And he’ll do it on the strength of Wally, not on some creatively bankrupt, desperate stunt like bringing Barry Allen back to life or something.

I thought this insight was rather fascinating. I haven't picked up a Flash book since Bart's death. I know that Waid and Peyer are extremely talented writers but that gratuitous death has turned me off of the series.

[Ian Boothby]

This was one of my problems with the Trickster and Piper storylines in Countdown. It was a Hope and Crosby style story if Bob and Bing had first beaten a child to death.

[PatrickG]

This was one of my problems with the Trickster and Piper storylines in Countdown. It was a Hope and Crosby style story if Bob and Bing had first beaten a child to death.

Actually, it was difficult to follow but I believe they were trying to shield him.

Still... It negates the whole appeal of the Flash Rogues' gallery.

If they actually want the Flash dead, if they aren't essentially playing a game with rules -- unlike virtually every other super-villain in the DCU -- then they need a desperately different Flash to fight, one unlike Wally, Barry or Bart.

I mean, imagine Batman from the 1960s JLA books being thrust against Mr. Tzaz.

[Cam63]

In Waid we trust.

[scout1279]

I know very little about Flash, but everything they are doing with the Flash just seems really crazy to me. I really don't understand why DC would bother with bringing Barry Allen back after just bringing Wally back, especially when the only void that needs to be filled in the Flash pantheon is Kid Flash. I mean, why on Earth does there need to be Jay Garrick, Barry Allen and Wally West?

I thought Waid did a pretty decent job with the twins, though I pretty much think any comic would be better off without moppets (DC is littered with them lately). Also, I loved the back up stories in his and Tom Peyer's arc. What was that planet/dimension/whatever called? That entire race of people was adorable. I wanted to scratch them behind their ears.

[jerrymcl89]

I think Waid's 100% on the money about the fact that the way to fix the Flash title is to dig in, tell good stories, and accept that it will take a while for the sales to turn around - not to try yet another retooling. If people don't like the kids, just push them a bit further into the background -don't try to retcon them away, kill them, or undo it in some other awkward manner. And while I'm not automatically against having Barry Allen come back, I can't see how Barry and Wally can coexist, and getting rid of Wally would also be a mistake.

[KevinTBrown]

In Waid we trust.
Yep.

But the current Flash title is crap.

I was going into it with an open mind, wanting to like the new "family-ish" direction of the book, but it failed miserably. HUGE mistake by DC to go in this direction. Unfortunately there's no way for DC to "undo" this..... unless they kill them all off.

[Sijo]

DC seems to believe these days that Death is the answer to everything: sales too low? Kill characters! In gross out ways! Still low? Kill the main character and replace him! I guess they're selling only to the part of the audience that only wants blood; all their talk about good stories is BS- show me a good recent storyline that *doesn't* involve death and I'll believe it. And it's mainly a DC thing- Marvel has things like Punisher or the Marvel Zombies, but they still have plenty of comics without gross or massive deaths in them, and they seem to be doing well. I blame Didio- even if not fully his fault, he IS the boss and gets the last word. I haven't bought a DC comic (with the exception of All-star Superman and the Johnny DC titles- non-continuity stuff, you notice) since Infinite Crisis ended, and sadly it was the right thing to do. I'm not planning on buying Final Crisis either. Things COULD get better afterwards- but I'm not holding my breath...

[NickThompson]

I don't think it was gratuitous, but I agree it was pointless.


The most frustrating thing to me was that Guggenheim's Flash arc was fun, and then at the end I find out he's only there to end the series and put everything back :)

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Yep.

But the current Flash title is crap.

I was going into it with an open mind, wanting to like the new "family-ish" direction of the book, but it failed miserably. HUGE mistake by DC to go in this direction. Unfortunately there's no way for DC to "undo" this..... unless they kill them all off.

Actually, I'm enjoying Peyer's two issues. I didn't so much like Waid's..... BUT I think it was a valiant effort to try something new. As for the kids.... I'm willing to see how things play out with them.

[Beast]

Isn't "insanely pointless and gratuitous" the very definition of most of DC's deaths as of late?

Impulse, Superboy, Pantha, Baby Wildebeest. The list goes on and on.

[Grazzt]

Isn't "insanely pointless and gratuitous" the very definition of most of DC's deaths as of late?

Impulse, Superboy, Pantha, Baby Wildebeest. The list goes on and on.

I'd say you could say that about both companies.

[Usernamessd]

DC seems to believe these days that Death is the answer to everything: sales too low? Kill characters! In gross out ways! Still low? Kill the main character and replace him! I guess they're selling only to the part of the audience that only wants blood; all their talk about good stories is BS- show me a good recent storyline that *doesn't* involve death and I'll believe it. And it's mainly a DC thing- Marvel has things like Punisher or the Marvel Zombies, but they still have plenty of comics without gross or massive deaths in them, and they seem to be doing well. I blame Didio- even if not fully his fault, he IS the boss and gets the last word. I haven't bought a DC comic (with the exception of All-star Superman and the Johnny DC titles- non-continuity stuff, you notice) since Infinite Crisis ended, and sadly it was the right thing to do. I'm not planning on buying Final Crisis either. Things COULD get better afterwards- but I'm not holding my breath...

Meh,Haven't even read a Marvel title - Not even starting with all this BND and SI crap.

[titanfan]

Interesting interview. A couple of random comments:

- I actually enjoyed Waid's 2nd run on the title. He's right though--it wasn't what I was expecting or the Flash type of stories I wanted to read about.

- I loved Peyer's other stuff, but his Flash so far has been pretty bleah.

- Glad to see someone call out DC on it's gratuitous/pointless deaths. (Even though there is some blood on his hands as well)

[PatrickG]

I would also suggest that for Flash to really take off again, the writer needs to make Bart's death a more relevant fixture of the book, assuming he's staying dead. I think this was too painful for Waid.

Look at how Wally acted prior to Waid in the Baron era. He was a cheeseburger scarfing womanizer. Waid brought extra depth by giving Barry's death an extra resonance.

Wally lost his way once he'd had enough "I'm in Barry's shadow"/"I'm my own man" stories. Johns brought some depth back by focusing on the rogues but this worked largely because Waid and others tried not too fall back on the rogues for years, which made a focus on them seem fresh.

Having kids is progress but it doesn't necessarily mine anything inherrent in a character. Some people change radically when they have kids (and you don't necessarily want this in a character who is a marketing icon). Some people don't change at all (and this can make the development superficial).

I'd like to see Wally tread old/new ground. He got his role as the Flash because of his mentor's death and it was wise to shape him as a result of that. He is the Flash now because of his sidekick's death and I think that's a really neat bookend that allows you to have Wally grapple with familiar -- but different -- issues.

Bart's death was a tragedy and a travesty on every possible level, both in-story and meta. But he wasn't really the Bart that most readers fell in love with by the time that happened.

The same is true of Barry IMHO but we forget that because of how his death and its aftermath have been handled.

In a sense, you can figuratively resurrect the best parts of Bart Allen (the parts that died in Infinite Crisis and Teen Titans) much the way Barry's best qualities were salvaged by Waid in his Flash run.

I'd almost rather see a Wally who is deeply shaped by the memory of Impulse than a direct resurrection of the strange character Bart had become.

[titanfan]

I would also suggest that for Flash to really take off again, the writer needs to make Bart's death a more relevant fixture of the book, assuming he's staying dead. I think this was too painful for Waid.

I'd almost rather see a Wally who is deeply shaped by the memory of Impulse than a direct resurrection of the strange character Bart had become.

It would be interesting, if only because Wally/Bart didn't have the best relationship over the years. There were many instances of Wally treating Bart like crap and you have to wonder if there is/was any tinge of regret over Wally being a pretty crappy mentor to Bart.

[Joshua Pantalleresco]

I think the problem was that there were too many gaps between where Flash took SB Prime into the void and when Bart and Wally came back afterwards. I actually like the family issues inherent in Flash. It's a natural progression for Wally. Just my opinion.

JP

[stamen]

You know, I was into all things Flash since the relaunch in 1987. I loved Barry too, especially the last few years of his title. I think its pretty safe to say that if it had a Wally tie-in, I was a buyer.

But when Wally just disappeared in conjunction with Bart's miracle aging, and I was reading a whining superhero once again trying to come to grips with his powers, I just put the book down.

You could smell the cancellation coming, then when they did it they way they did-- sort of an "Ooops, let's kill of Bart quick." I utterly lost interest in all things Flash. I hardly even thumb the book at my LCS anymore. Wally doesn't even interest me and he used to be one of my favorite characters. It all just feels "forced," none of it has been story driven at all in my opinion, and you can smell the "editorial staff" in about every panel.

The error here is forgetting what keeps people coming back to a character. I mean, if I know someone and know their backstory, I can escape into my reading that much faster. If I have to learn a new character and adjust to them, then what's to stop me from learning a new character in Image or Viper comics? I'm spending about the same on the floppy (less if I choose back issues), working about as hard to identify with the story, branching out of the DCU and expanding my tastes with something fresh... all while being able to voice my displeasure at the editorially driven changes DC makes by using my wallet.

Don't get me wrong, change can be good. But DC went about changing things on half-ass explanations, almost zero reprecussions across the DCU, and an overall apathy toward fans of the characters. That's not how you do "change."

Renee Montoya is how you do change. I wasn't happy about losing Vic, but she won the right to be heard because DC invested enough time in the story to convince me she might work.

[snarkbunny]

Yep.

But the current Flash title is crap.

I was going into it with an open mind, wanting to like the new "family-ish" direction of the book, but it failed miserably. HUGE mistake by DC to go in this direction. Unfortunately there's no way for DC to "undo" this..... unless they kill them all off.

See, I really enjoyed the family-ish direction that Waid started on the book and I'm sticking around with Peyer for the moment to see what direction he settles in. Unfortunately, sales indicated that I'm a minority on this.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

So, Heather and I were just talking about the Flash legacy, and she asked, "So has Impulse become Flash yet?"

....yeah. That was fun to explain. :frown: Poor Bart. I hope Legion Of Three Worlds treats you better.

[Charles RB]

I was reading a whining superhero once again trying to come to grips with his powers

Why would Bart be coming to grips with his powers? He's had them for years.