Iron Man #28 *Spoilers*

[jackolover]

General rundown:

Kooning is in Myanmar and launches his attack on Mandarin in China, by parachuting in close to Mandarins Industrial complex. They set up the sniper, and the sniper turns to stone. Then Mandarin gets one of his stone slaves to cut the head off Kooning.

Cut to the UN/CSA hearing against Stark Hill and Dugan. Starks makes his last ditch plea but the Committee don't buy it, and strip Tony of his job. As soon as that is done, Dugan secretly whispers 'Code Green' and SHIELD men enter the chamber, whisk away Stark and Hill takes control as the new leader.

Stark locates, and finds Mandarin and defeats him, negating missile born Extremis by freezing them. Everyone one lives happily ever after and Tony has his job back.

This was an enlightening read for the fact DuganSkrull ferreted Stark from the UN building, and I can only surmise it is because Skrulls would likewise turn to mush if Stark didn't defeat the Mandarins extremis release into the atmosphere.

Then comes the UN finding of guilty for Tony Stark, for multiple breaking of the SHRA law, where Tony will be put in custody and transferred to the 42 prison.

Then the shocker. Maria Hill is back in charge of SHILED as second in command, after the UN sacked Tony Stark, and as such, instituted a state of emergency (as a ruse of course), over suspect WMD on the UN premises.

Not saying I was surprised that this was the way Dugan and Hill got Tony off, but, it was a surprise as I read it. The Knaufs really outdid themselves this time. They dangled this carrot out to the anti-regs, making all their wet dreams come true, about Tony being this guilty and culpable figure of authority, yet, like in WWH, Tony came out on top, by using his extremis technology and having himself fully reinstated with honors. Isn't it just so typical, that the UN rewards dirty tricks, (as Dugan referred to Furys techniques) with plaudits? Granted, the UN don't get to see behind the scenes stuff the readers do, but just how the ambiguous Tony Stark gets away with it, is fascinating.

This book did remind me of pre-Fury SHIELD and UN, though, and that was good reminiscing.

Notice the UN/CSA committee were not swayed by Starks Cap argument, that Law enforcement would be restricted by red-tape. The UN found Stark guilty, thus proving the UN agreed that Cap was right, and Tony was wrong. Well, for a minute there, until Tony saved the day, How many saves has it been for Tony now?

CW
WWH
Atlantis
Latveria
and now Mandarin

How many for Maria Hill?

Savage Land
Silent War
Tony Starks life
and now Starks redemption.

This was a $US3.99 book, and only one Marvel intervue page, with more story afterwards, like in the other $US3.99 books out this week.

[CMBMOOL]

Damn, so close yet so far.:frown:

Oh well there's always Secret Invasion. :redface:

[Mark_S]

Darn. Tony survived and the Mandarin lost. Oh well. Another time perhaps. At least Cap was proven right, the government did screw it up and would have let the Mandarin win.

They dangled this carrot out to the anti-regs, making all their wet dreams come true, about Tony being this guilty and culpable figure of authority, yet, like in WWH, Tony came out on top, by using his extremis technology and having himself fully reinstated with honors.

I do get the feeling that they have a sadistic streak where this is concerned. Oh well, their book to write. It's some comfort to know that with Tony in charge of SHIELD the skrulls have a better chance of winning.

Mark_S

[CMBMOOL]

Well at least Tony now knows that Cap was proven right, but now what to do about of this new piece of info ? :frown:

[gorthon616]

Why do I have a feeling that a lot of the "difficult" skrull impersonators are going to be "oh... and they thought they were ____ too, so that's why they acted like ____."?

In any case, it's been a fun ride so far. I'm glad that there is a book out there that deals with the complexities of the registration issues. I don't know if you could say that Cap was proven right (though the dialogue certainly brings that phrase to mind) because I don't think Tony thought it was going to be free and easy working with the government. And certainly part of why he was able to save the day was because of the position he has been put in. Consider that in MA where has has basically been playing super-hero he has been just running damage control past the big evil event. If Mandarin was the villain rather than Ultron or Venom/Doom, Tony would be looking at a world of dead people. Of course, if he had the freedom that he has in MA where he plays more the straight hero, Mandarin would have been much easier to take down. But that sort of give/take is why I find the book to be so interesting.

[mikekerr3]

General rundown:

Kooning is in Myanmar and launches his attack on Mandarin in China, by parachuting in close to Mandarins Industrial complex. They set up the sniper, and the sniper turns to stone. Then Mandarin gets one of his stone slaves to cut the head off Kooning.

Cut to the UN/CSA hearing against Stark Hill and Dugan. Starks makes his last ditch plea but the Committee don't buy it, and strip Tony of his job. As soon as that is done, Dugan secretly whispers 'Code Green' and SHIELD men enter the chamber, whisk away Stark and Hill takes control as the new leader.

Stark locates, and finds Mandarin and defeats him, negating missile born Extremis by freezing them. Everyone one lives happily ever after and Tony has his job back.

This was an enlightening read for the fact DuganSkrull ferreted Stark from the UN building, and I can only surmise it is because Skrulls would likewise turn to mush if Stark didn't defeat the Mandarins extremis release into the atmosphere.

Then comes the UN finding of guilty for Tony Stark, for multiple breaking of the SHRA law, where Tony will be put in custody and transferred to the 42 prison.

Then the shocker. Maria Hill is back in charge of SHILED as second in command, after the UN sacked Tony Stark, and as such, instituted a state of emergency (as a ruse of course), over suspect WMD on the UN premises.

Not saying I was surprised that this was the way Dugan and Hill got Tony off, but, it was a surprise as I read it. The Knaufs really outdid themselves this time. They dangled this carrot out to the anti-regs, making all their wet dreams come true, about Tony being this guilty and culpable figure of authority, yet, like in WWH, Tony came out on top, by using his extremis technology and having himself fully reinstated with honors. Isn't it just so typical, that the UN rewards dirty tricks, (as Dugan referred to Furys techniques) with plaudits? Granted, the UN don't get to see behind the scenes stuff the readers do, but just how the ambiguous Tony Stark gets away with it, is fascinating.

This book did remind me of pre-Fury SHIELD and UN, though, and that was good reminiscing.

Notice the UN/CSA committee were not swayed by Starks Cap argument, that Law enforcement would be restricted by red-tape. The UN found Stark guilty, thus proving the UN agreed that Cap was right, and Tony was wrong. Well, for a minute there, until Tony saved the day, How many saves has it been for Tony now?

CW
WWH
Atlantis
Latveria
and now Mandarin

How many for Maria Hill?

Savage Land
Silent War
Tony Starks life
and now Starks redemption.

This was a $US3.99 book, and only one Marvel intervue page, with more story afterwards, like in the other $US3.99 books out this week.

How many mass murders for Maria Hill that you call wins.
NA#6 You may call it a save but she murdered innocents to get that "save"
SW#6 Genocide is a win?

WWH was Starks fault. No kidnapping, no WWH
How could Atlantis be called a win?
Doom didn't launch the Symbiont's, no cause for war.
I doubt you could say that a majority of people would agree that the CW was won by the good guys.
I'll give you the Mandarin though. Good fight.

I picked up this issue on my friends recommendation, It proved cap rightm the "hero' broke the law and saved the day, unless armed raids on the UN are legal. He got away with it by winning, but it was still an armed raid on the UN.

[bulbasteve]

Hill cited the U.N resoution that made it legal... and Dugan explained it to Tony like 2 pages later! It was "Nick Fury Dirty", not "What anti-reg people think of baby eating Tony Dirty".

[Mark_S]

Should we mention the fact that mike and mark a missing a lot of amazing stuff by simply reading the summary here just to mine for bad things about Tony and crew? :p

Guilty. But with an explanation. Comics are expensive, and at the current price of gas I can only afford 3 to 4 per week (and that number may go down with gas going up, I can see a point in the future when I won't be able to afford to do much more than look into the window of my LCS), and there are a lot more than that I like. I'm not going to use what little money on a character I don't like. But I'm still curious about how things are going, so reviews and recaps are the best way I have to keep up. But I am not scouring for bad info, just taking the information I have and drawing a conclusion. Incomplete? Yes. But still generally accurate based on what I know of the character. Some love the character and the book and thus will find very little wrong with it no matter how it is written, others will not. Just skim over my post if it bothers you.

Mark_S

[drwho]

This issue was absolutely amazing. I really loved seeing the Silver Centurion armor back in action. That was a big surprise for me. Tony really went hard core in this issue. Iron Man the series really shows how true a hero he really is while all the other books make him seem incompetent. Some deal with MAria Hill. This was good stuff. Still makes you wonder which Dugan we are dealing with here.

[bulbasteve]

Oh no, you caught my unedited post! Cause mike totally bought the issue....that guy is great.

But my main issue was you talking about the writers...how can you know if they are baiting readers if you haven't actually read how it was done? You can talk about it in plot points with a summary on if you think Tony was right or wrong in a general story sense...but don't drag the actual writers and the writing into it unless you have read it. There is no need to sound so flippant about the writers when you haven't actually read their work.

Err back on topic, The Silver Centurion stuff was funny cause someone was asking in the Armor survivior how it would look with De la torre...and hey...petty damn good. That panel with Tony screaming worked much better than I thought it would have with that armor.

[Mark_S]

Oh no, you caught my unedited post! Cause mike totally bought the issue....that guys is great.



Sometimes we all type to fast. :)

Mark_S

[Mark_S]

Oh no, you caught my unedited post! Cause mike totally bought the issue....that guy is great.

But my main issue was you talking about the writers...how can you know if they are baiting readers if you haven't actually read how it was done? You can talk about it in plot points with a summary on if you think Tony was right or wrong in a general story sense...but don't drag the actual writers and the writing into it unless you have read it. There is no need to sound so flippant about the writers when you haven't actually read their work.

.

Actualy I was just thinking out loud that Jacklover had a point on the way the Knauf's seemed to be taunting the ant-reg crowd.

Mark_S

[Mr. Earl Brooks]

For the record, I think Stark's a tool in other books, but the writing in this book is too awesome to drop it because of that. Tony is Captain Bad Ass in this book. HOLY CRAP HE BLEW OFF HIS FOOT. Yes, sir.

We need more Mandarin. More and more Mandarin.

[HepOne]

Actualy I was just thinking out loud that Jacklover had a point on the way the Knauf's seemed to be taunting the ant-reg crowd.


I'm always suprised that the anti-reg crowd sill exists. I havent read the issue yet but I like the way Tony defeats Mandarin (scans on wizard's website). The hand to Hand fighting in this arc has been better than any comic out there (including immortal Iron-Fist). I get my comics on fridays in the UK and its a shame that I cant contribute to threads properly before thread drift takes place. I'll be back when I've read the issue on Friday

[bulbasteve]

Question: the five rings in china? Were they the ones Tony had or the ones that were in Mandarin's back? Cause I mean...would Tony really give them to china?...crazy....

Actualy I was just thinking out loud that Jacklover had a point on the way the Knauf's seemed to be taunting the ant-reg crowd.

Mark_S

Yeah but if you read the way it was written it was really wasn't that at all. There weren't people jumping for joy in the background in it. It was more like a punch in the gut (sure looked that way from Tony's expression). I doubt there was any meta-textual stuff going on. Heck the only thing meta would be at the very end where he talks about "proving them all wrong" (complete with him on the cover of "timely magazine" heh). That's the problem with not read it, you don't know WHEN to call them hacks :p

Though really with the look on his face when he says he is feeling great...I don't think you are supposed to buy that either...and the denoument furthers emphasises the empty victory it was. THAT was more of a statement about proreg/antireg readers (and editors I guess..) talking too much about "redemption".

[mikekerr3]

Hill cited the U.N resoution that made it legal... and Dugan explained it to Tony like 2 pages later! It was "Nick Fury Dirty", not "What anti-reg people think of baby eating Tony Dirty".

The resolution would have made it legal if they hadn;t faked the circumstances to use it. As it was it was just cover for a crime. A justified one but a crime.

The main thing this issue did was prove Cap and the Anti-regs right.

[bulbasteve]

The resolution would have made it legal if they hadn;t faked the circumstances to use it. As it was it was just cover for a crime. A justified one but a crime.

The main thing this issue did was prove Cap and the Anti-regs right.

Hill was talking about the Mandarin, it obviously wasn't faked (unless every one in the building was extremis immune...that seems...unlikely). Tony just didn't have the balls to try something like that.

[Mark_S]

I'm always suprised that the anti-reg crowd sill exists.

I think marvel is a little surprised too. Then again I'm sometimes surprised we still exist, I thought by now I'd be alone in my views. So many of my friends who were anti-sra simply left marvel comics alltogether. Sometimes they express amazement that I still care.

I am curious, was this really an armed raid on the UN? I can believe that, but really, what would have happened if the security forces at the UN had decided to make it a firefight? Surely they weren't happy about armed troops storming in? Or is SHIELD simply part of UN security?

Mark_S

[bulbasteve]

I am curious, was this really an armed raid on the UN? I can believe that, but really, what would have happened if the security forces at the UN had decided to make it a firefight? Surely they weren't happy about armed troops storming in? Or is SHIELD simply part of UN security?

Mark_S

In the MU they ARE the United Nation's security. I'm sure every country in the world and the U.N. might be a bit miffed that Nick Fury has secret bases in them with active spy equipment...

And people think TONY is evi!?

[jackolover]

I am curious, was this really an armed raid on the UN? I can believe that, but really, what would have happened if the security forces at the UN had decided to make it a firefight? Surely they weren't happy about armed troops storming in? Or is SHIELD simply part of UN security?

Mark_S

Hill and Dugan did plan for that contingency, because after Hill made the proclamation in the UN building that a suspected WMD, all the delegates saw that Stark was being led away by his own staff to freedom, while this ploy by Hill was being contrived. Then along came a host of US security forces, but nobody could decide jurisdiction around the UN, so there was stalemate, while Tony got rid of the Mandarin.

[Trey]

Fantastic issue. Really surprised Kooning got chopped up.

IN the end, what was that cocoon thing the scientists opened. Mandarin? after he got frozen? That scene was confusing.

[Pyro]

Did no one notice that the Mandarin is Extremis enhanced now? That was the shocker of the issue for me! I was like, "Wow, this really looks like it's coming down to the end of the story! What could possibly happen next?" because I knew the Knaufs were telling a 3-part Mandarin story and this was only part 2. Then, I saw that there was an Extremis shell during the Mandarin's monologue (which I'm pretty sure was the same one from the issue where he took over the prison hospital but I can't check right now) and the Mandarin wasn't in it!:eek: :eek: :eek: That means the next story will be even bigger than this one! I can barely imagine!

I wonder what the Mandarin's Extremis powers will be? Tony's were specifically tailored to him, Paragon had density control, and the other dudes had fire and super strength. It seems to be sort of a grab bag.

Other thoughts about the issue:

It was clear Kooning had no chance against the Mandarin and I'm glad that sub-plot got taken care of quickly.

Was that Tony and Maya's first kiss? I can't remember. If it was, it was about time.

It was cool that the Mandarin's hands were revealed to be prosthetics from one of Tony's companies.

It wasn't clear to me exactly how Tony pulled out those rings from the Mandarin's back.

I don't understand why Tony couldn't have cut off the bracelet instead of his heel.

My only criticism of the writing of this story is that it really doesn't explain a lot of things. For instance, I still have no clue exactly what power the rings have, or why the Mandarin had some lackeys made of stone. I suppose this kind of info is available somewhere in the history of Iron Man comic books, but I think writers should at least provide a little background info about things that aren't readily apparent to newer readers.

[mikekerr3]

I'm always suprised that the anti-reg crowd sill exists. I havent read the issue yet but I like the way Tony defeats Mandarin (scans on wizard's website). The hand to Hand fighting in this arc has been better than any comic out there (including immortal Iron-Fist). I get my comics on fridays in the UK and its a shame that I cant contribute to threads properly before thread drift takes place. I'll be back when I've read the issue on Friday

Why would you be surprise that the Anti-regs still exist, There has not been a Retcon of Tony's action, the SHRA hasn't changed, Shields is still murderous thugs, and the SHRA is still both immoral and constitutional. What Tony said to Peter about 42 is still canon.

I don't know about you, but Marvel has no control over what I think is right and wrong. I will be anti-reg until I stop reading comics and hold the values that make me anti-reg until I die. WHy would I change, the facts in the books haven't changed.

I only bought this story because cap is proven right in it.:biggrin:

[jackolover]

Did no one notice that the Mandarin is Extremis enhanced now? That was the shocker of the issue for me! I was like, "Wow, this really looks like it's coming down to the end of the story! What could possibly happen next?" because I knew the Knaufs were telling a 3-part Mandarin story and this was only part 2. Then, I saw that there was an Extremis shell during the Mandarin's monologue (which I'm pretty sure was the same one from the issue where he took over the prison hospital but I can't check right now) and the Mandarin wasn't in it!:eek: :eek: :eek: That means the next story will be even bigger than this one! I can barely imagine!

I wonder what the Mandarin's Extremis powers will be? Tony's were specifically tailored to him, Paragon had density control, and the other dudes had fire and super strength. It seems to be sort of a grab bag.



.

Mandarin has stated that he would turn to mulch if he got infected with Extremis, because he doesn't have the chemistry that is compatible to Extremis, so I don't think Mandarin has Extremis.

There are unexplained things, like who got the rings at the end of the story, and who got Mandarin? Was Maya put back into custody, after she was found to be distributing Extremis tech? I can't imagine Tony handing those rings over to anyone. Tony defeated the Mandarin, and that was a big trophy.

What this book does is it rounds off story lines just in time for the Secret Invasion. Tony is still Head of SHIELD, and all is well with the world.

[StoneGold]

Damn! Ripped right out of his back!!!!


Seriously, that was one hell of an ending.

[Pyro]

Mandarin has stated that he would turn to mulch if he got infected with Extremis, because he doesn't have the chemistry that is compatible to Extremis, so I don't think Mandarin has Extremis.Yes, but the Mandarin lies. I don't see why he would lie about that, but there's no proof that he wouldn't. And I thought it was pretty clear what happened at the end even if we were led to believe that couldn't happen.

[jackolover]

Yes, but the Mandarin lies. I don't see why he would lie about that, but there's no proof that he wouldn't. And I thought it was pretty clear what happened at the end even if we were led to believe that couldn't happen.

That ending is curious and open to interpretation. Here was a sarcophagus, that had to be sawed open, and Mandarin isn't inside. Either Mandarin has the powers of Stick, and can dematerialize, now, or, Mandarin still has the powers of the rings, even when they aren't with him.

I thought the sarcophagus was made of freon, not stone, in any case.

Also, unexplained, where is the freon frozen Extremis being kept now? Did SHIELD destroy it, or did it get destroyed by the freon?

It seems from Mandarins monologue at the end, that Mandarin has reverted back to his mental state in the mental Institution. It seems he has gone mad, by that internal voice.

[SquidSquod]

Now Iron Man vs Mandarin with Extremis is beginning to turn into battles of badasses.

[IronStarks]

i love this series, keeps getting better and better

[Tobias Drake]

I pretty much called Kooning. The idiot rushes off to die a fool's death rather than stick around to be the key witness. His stupidity nearly doomed the world.

Also,

I don't understand why Tony couldn't have cut off the bracelet instead of his heel.

Because it's adamantium.

[Pyro]

Because it's adamantium.Oh yeah, I forgot. Thanks.

[Alpow]

Not saying I was surprised that this was the way Dugan and Hill got Tony off, but, it was a surprise as I read it. The Knaufs really outdid themselves this time. They dangled this carrot out to the anti-regs, making all their wet dreams come true, about Tony being this guilty and culpable figure of authority, yet, like in WWH, Tony came out on top, by using his extremis technology and having himself fully reinstated with honors.

It seems a fairly balanced book to me.

Tony is obviously the hero and isn't going to held to account but everything since civil war (in this book) has been an illustration that the government is criminally incompetent and that they just get in the way with near disastrous results.

As was explicitly spelled out in the book, Cap's argument (if indeed that was Cap's argument rather than the civil liberties angle) was proved valid.

If the law and the proper authorities had been obeyed 97% of the worlds population would be dead.
Not only does this give a good reason why the SHRA is a bad idea it also endorses illegal actions taken for the greater good, thus legitimising both Caps methods and his reason for employing them.

Luckily for the people of the MU Tony doesn't really believe in accountability or the rule of law.

[Tobias Drake]

It seems a fairly balanced book to me.

Tony is obviously the hero and isn't going to held to account but everything since civil war (in this book) has been an illustration that the government is criminally incompetent and that they just get in the way with near disastrous results.

As was explicitly spelled out in the book, Cap's argument (if indeed that was Cap's argument rather than the civil liberties angle) was proved valid.

If the law and the proper authorities had been obeyed 97% of the worlds population would be dead.
Not only does this give a good reason why the SHRA is a bad idea it also endorses illegal actions taken for the greater good, thus legitimising both Caps methods and his reason for employing them.

Luckily for the people of the MU Tony doesn't really believe in accountability or the rule of law.

In the law's defense, if the law and proper authorities had been obeyed, the key witness would have been there to testify rather than dying an idiot's death for no reason. That could have made all the difference in the world.

[Alpow]

In the law's defense, if the law and proper authorities had been obeyed, the key witness would have been there to testify rather than dying an idiot's death for no reason. That could have made all the difference in the world.

He only figured out what was going on because Stark continued his investigation after being told to drop it and then suspended.

Stark was only able to do that because others also disobeyed orders and helped him.

Of course The government not faking Maya's death so she could engineer an extremely dangerous super-weapon would have prevented the entire thing.

The govenrment caused the problem and it is only because Stark ignored them at every turn than humanity wasn't wiped out.

[Iron_Stark]

Guilty. But with an explanation. Comics are expensive, and at the current price of gas I can only afford 3 to 4 per week (and that number may go down with gas going up, I can see a point in the future when I won't be able to afford to do much more than look into the window of my LCS), and there are a lot more than that I like. I'm not going to use what little money on a character I don't like. But I'm still curious about how things are going, so reviews and recaps are the best way I have to keep up. But I am not scouring for bad info, just taking the information I have and drawing a conclusion. Incomplete? Yes. But still generally accurate based on what I know of the character. Some love the character and the book and thus will find very little wrong with it no matter how it is written, others will not. Just skim over my post if it bothers you.

Mark_S

Wait, so you don't even BUY the damn book, yet you're on every damn Iron Man thread trashing him?

wow, just wow.

[XPac]

It seems a fairly balanced book to me.

Tony is obviously the hero and isn't going to held to account but everything since civil war (in this book) has been an illustration that the government is criminally incompetent and that they just get in the way with near disastrous results.

As was explicitly spelled out in the book, Cap's argument (if indeed that was Cap's argument rather than the civil liberties angle) was proved valid.

If the law and the proper authorities had been obeyed 97% of the worlds population would be dead.
Not only does this give a good reason why the SHRA is a bad idea it also endorses illegal actions taken for the greater good, thus legitimising both Caps methods and his reason for employing them.

Luckily for the people of the MU Tony doesn't really believe in accountability or the rule of law.

And those of us who have read Frontline and Civil War know Stark really doesn't believe in accountability or rule of law anywhere near as much as his online supporters appear to, so we all knew Stark would simply ignore government to do what he needed to do, and it would work out in the end. That was ironically the one thing Cap and Tony both seemed to believe, despite being on different sides of CW.

And I do think it's kinda neat that the Iron Man book does a better job of showing this aspect of Caps arguement than the CW book did.. really, Millar never bothered stating Caps views on things at all. So it's kinda cool.

Did marvel ever get around to printing "Cap was right" t-shirts? I'd love one in a medium.

[MichaelChen]

Kooning attacking Mandarin was really a "WTF-were-you-thinking???" moment. I mean Mandarin's basically an anime Fist of The North Star type monster, and he's got the rings on top of that. Did Kooning seriously think he was going to win that?? Hasn't he ever watched an anime? If he had watched one episode of Fist of The North Star, his life might have been saved.

[Magneto Rocks]

No official ones. They are out there, but then again, so are "Magneto Was Right" t-shirts, so I wouldn't read much into it!

This was one HELL of an issue. Right up there with anything Brubaker's ever done, and the best of the Knaufs (Except the spectacular 14) by a mile! In fact, it was actually BETTER than Cap this week, which is basically the first time in memory this has happened as far as I'm concerned. SO much to digest- the end of Jack Kooning, the "final fate" of the Mandarin, the awesomeness of Dugan and Hill, the epic showdown at the end, and Tony's ultimate vindication... daaaamn.

Also? Another phenomenally BALANCED book. The Knaufs showcase in one issue several major things. They show that yes, Cap was right to fear the red tape and the beaurocracy. And in the exact same issue, they show that Tony was absolutely right in his belief that they could still be heroes when that happened without sacrifing all the good parts of the SHRA. And ultimately, that's what makes for balance- Anti-Reggers can say Cap was right, and Pro-Reggers can point out Tony always knew there'd be red tape, and he was right to believe they could always overcome the bad without having to lose everything good about the SHRA.

Oh, and another major point is DECISIVELY proven for anyone with any lingering doubts: Yes, you get a trial for violating the SHRA.

If the law and the proper authorities had been obeyed 97% of the worlds population would be dead.
Not only does this give a good reason why the SHRA is a bad idea it also endorses illegal actions taken for the greater good, thus legitimising both Caps methods and his reason for employing them.

Actually no, it really doesn't. You'll note Tony Stark does not attempt to attack the UN or anything like that- in fact, Maria Hill's move to take over SHIELD etc is all perfectly legal, and within the rule of law, if not it's spirit. The difference is, Cap believed in order to avoid the negative aspects of the SHRA, you had to throw out ALL the good stuff- Tony knew that it wouldn't always be right, but that the good stuff was worth it and you could live with the bad, and this absolutely proved him 100% right.

But CW stuff aside, one hell of an issue. Cutting off his own heel? The Mandarin's slapdown of Kooning? The sheer badassery of ripping the rings right out of his spine? The brilliance of the armour's return? The full circle of the Mandarin's words at the end? The single GREATEST Iron Man victory in a long time? The best showing of Maria Hill in her history, and one of Dugan's best? Seriously, I had a big grin on my face for the whole sequence where they stage their breakout without technically violating any laws- especially when Maria points out she's now the director. It's official; God help us all, I like Maria Hill.

Actually, the one thing this makes me sad for is Secret Invasion and Invincible Iron Man. This wrapped up so much of Tony's character arc since Civil War that it's a shame all the development will inevitably be set aside in those other books. I wish the Knaufs were given more respect to finish this story (Which was originally longer) and wrap up the arc fully, and have others actually PAY ATTENTION to them. But that's just pointing out niggling details which the Knaufs can't control- and what they COULD control, they did damn well with.

9.5/10

[Omega Alpha]

This was the best Avengers book of the week. Yeah, even better than Cap. Tony saved the world and kicked Mandarin's ass. But at the same time, he only did after fighting the government and breaking the rules, so he loses too in a way.

[StoneGold]

Hasn't he ever watched an anime?

He was basically the action movie version of Colin Powell. In other words, probably not.

[jackolover]

Kooning attacking Mandarin was really a "WTF-were-you-thinking???" moment. I mean Mandarin's basically an anime Fist of The North Star type monster, and he's got the rings on top of that. Did Kooning seriously think he was going to win that?? Hasn't he ever watched an anime? If he had watched one episode of Fist of The North Star, his life might have been saved.

I've never watched anime, but how did Mandarin figure he was being spotted for a shooter from that far away? Is he better than Spiderman, and can sense danger, now?

[Mark_S]

Wait, so you don't even BUY the damn book, yet you're on every damn Iron Man thread trashing him?

wow, just wow.

Don't be too amazed. At least I still care about the character. Most of my friends gave up half way into cw and walked away from Marvel completely. Many of them now actively hope for failure for the company. And I do read the re-caps and skim quickly on the wrack and that hopefully keeps me as up to date as I can be. But I simply don't have the money that everyone else on the board seems to, I can't afford every single title marvel puts out in search of Tony's good side. I can afford 3 to 4 issues per week. So I go on what information I can get. So far it's been pretty accurate, because when I was at a comic book back issue show last week (recent marvel stuff was going for .75 cents and cw stuff was in the .50 cent bins) and I read through the issues I found nothing that caused me to change my mind.

Mark_S

[Mark_S]

In the law's defense, if the law and proper authorities had been obeyed, the key witness would have been there to testify rather than dying an idiot's death for no reason. That could have made all the difference in the world.

Do you think he had that much credibility? The impression I usually get from government hearings is that they are pre-decided before any witness takes the stand.

Mark_S

[XPac]

Actually no, it really doesn't. You'll note Tony Stark does not attempt to attack the UN or anything like that- in fact, Maria Hill's move to take over SHIELD etc is all perfectly legal, and within the rule of law, if not it's spirit. The difference is, Cap believed in order to avoid the negative aspects of the SHRA, you had to throw out ALL the good stuff- Tony knew that it wouldn't always be right, but that the good stuff was worth it and you could live with the bad, and this absolutely proved him 100% right.




It wasn't that Cap was necessarily against all the positive aspects that came about from the SHRA... what he was against was forcing it on those that choose not to be a part of it.

If the government had decided they wanted to create the 50 states Initiative and Camp Hammond without the SHRA, I very much doubt he would have oppossed it. Cap himself is a person that voluntarily chose to work with the government, so it wasn't something that he was innately against. Civil War didn't start because Cap was asked to register... it started because SHIELD attempted to force him to hunt down people that didn't register.

I would submit that it's entirely possible to get the bulk of the beneits that came about during Civil War WITHOUT the SHRA, which would have avoided the bulk of the negative aspects.

[Tobias Drake]

Do you think he had that much credibility? The impression I usually get from government hearings is that they are pre-decided before any witness takes the stand.

Mark_S

I think part of the reason Stark was even on the stand in the first place was Kooning's mysterious disappearance.

A) Stark has an unfortunate discourse with Kooning.
B) No one ever sees Kooning again after Stark.
C) Nuclear bombing on American soil.

Had B never happened, not only would Stark be under less suspicion (because he wouldn't be suspected of murdering a senator), but he would have a very credible key witness to testify and say, "Everything this man is saying is true, I know that because I unwittingly worked with the Mandarin."

[Tobias Drake]

It wasn't that Cap was necessarily against all the positive aspects that came about from the SHRA... what he was against was forcing it on those that choose not to be a part of it.

If the government had decided they wanted to create the 50 states Initiative and Camp Hammond without the SHRA, I very much doubt he would have oppossed it. Cap himself is a person that voluntarily chose to work with the government, so it wasn't something that he was innately against. Civil War didn't start because Cap was asked to register... it started because SHIELD attempted to force him to hunt down people that didn't register.

I would submit that it's entirely possible to get the bulk of the beneits that came about during Civil War WITHOUT the SHRA, which would have avoided the bulk of the negative aspects.

I disagree. The Fifty State Initiative would fall flat without the changes in the world that the SHRA brought about. If they weren't making a conscious and deliberate effort at organizing, structuring, and bringing law to the chaotic mess that is the metahuman world, then there would be about as many metahumans in the Initiative as there are in the police already. How many is that? One? Zero?

If the option of "Ignore the government, continue doing things however you like without any care for consequences," was still on the table, why would anyone choose anything else? Under the mask, they have the freedom to do anything with no consequences. They can be as reckless and carefree as they want and they know it can never, ever be traced back to them.

Even if they make a mistake, screw up bad enough, they can just change costumes and BAM, no more problem. Bee-Man accidentally blew up a factory? People hate him now? Well, now he's the Hornet, Bee-Man fades into obscurity, and Hornet gets a fresh start. Until he hurts someone by accident, and becomes Buzzard to avoid any scrutiny.

Absolute freedom from society, from the law, and from any consequences ever affecting you. Who would willingly give that up?

[StoneGold]

I've never watched anime, but how did Mandarin figure he was being spotted for a shooter from that far away? Is he better than Spiderman, and can sense danger, now?
What do you mean, now? Mento Intensifier ring. Gives him all kind of wacky psionic abilities.

[jackolover]

What do you mean, now? Mento Intensifier ring. Gives him all kind of wacky psionic abilities.

Ho boy. Excuse me. Mento intensifier ring. Of course. (.. what the hell is that?).

[XPac]

I disagree. The Fifty State Initiative would fall flat without the changes in the world that the SHRA brought about. If they weren't making a conscious and deliberate effort at organizing, structuring, and bringing law to the chaotic mess that is the metahuman world, then there would be about as many metahumans in the Initiative as there are in the police already. How many is that? One? Zero?

If the option of "Ignore the government, continue doing things however you like without any care for consequences," was still on the table, why would anyone choose anything else? Under the mask, they have the freedom to do anything with no consequences. They can be as reckless and carefree as they want and they know it can never, ever be traced back to them.

Even if they make a mistake, screw up bad enough, they can just change costumes and BAM, no more problem. Bee-Man accidentally blew up a factory? People hate him now? Well, now he's the Hornet, Bee-Man fades into obscurity, and Hornet gets a fresh start. Until he hurts someone by accident, and becomes Buzzard to avoid any scrutiny.

Absolute freedom from society, from the law, and from any consequences ever affecting you. Who would willingly give that up?

Supervillains wear masks too. Do they have absolute freedom from society? No. If they break the law, the are captured and put behind bars. If a superhero messes up, the same thing can happen if it's necessary. And really, SHIELD knew the identities of most of the hero community anyways. The notion that the SHRA brought about greater accountabily is a joke... it always has been and continues to be.

Would there be less heroes in the 50 states Initiative if not for the SHRA? Quite possibly. That's the potential downside to NOT forcing people into service for the government against their will. But since the current status quo has frankly worked at keeping the world safe anyways, I don't think there's a rush. And with Cap on board to help train new heroes and gain the trust of other ones, I think in the long run you'll have a much better Initiative with a lot less bad baggage.

Ultimately when you do this sort of thing SLOWLY, working with the hero community every step of the way in the long term you'll get a better result. They wanted quick overnight results post Stamford... and predictably that created a big mess. That's never the best or right way to handle things.

[StoneGold]

Ho boy. Excuse me. Mento intensifier ring. Of course. (.. what the hell is that?).

I'm just saying Mandy's always had wacky psionic abilities due to his rings. Really, he has wacky everything abilities due to his rings. He has 10 rings, each with a different power. That makes Silver Age Superman look like a slacker.

[jackolover]

Actually, the one thing this makes me sad for is Secret Invasion and Invincible Iron Man. This wrapped up so much of Tony's character arc since Civil War that it's a shame all the development will inevitably be set aside in those other books. I wish the Knaufs were given more respect to finish this story (Which was originally longer) and wrap up the arc fully, and have others actually PAY ATTENTION to them. But that's just pointing out niggling details which the Knaufs can't control- and what they COULD control, they did damn well with.

9.5/10

Actually that was the one aspect of the ending that bugged me. It was how after Tony won the victory over Mandarin, that we got this hurried rundown of the Dugan summing up the event to Tony and the commentary stating Tony had his old job back. I would have like that drawn out a bit more than the hurried ending we got.

I had the same feeling in Avengers Initiative #11

where Tony miraculously applies a torch to the melted clown character, and restores him. It felt so juvenile an incident, you might of well have said,' Sim Sela Bim'

[Mark_S]

I disagree. The Fifty State Initiative would fall flat without the changes in the world that the SHRA brought about. If they weren't making a conscious and deliberate effort at organizing, structuring, and bringing law to the chaotic mess that is the metahuman world, then there would be about as many metahumans in the Initiative as there are in the police already. How many is that? One? Zero?

If the option of "Ignore the government, continue doing things however you like without any care for consequences," was still on the table, why would anyone choose anything else? Under the mask, they have the freedom to do anything with no consequences. They can be as reckless and carefree as they want and they know it can never, ever be traced back to them.

Even if they make a mistake, screw up bad enough, they can just change costumes and BAM, no more problem. Bee-Man accidentally blew up a factory? People hate him now? Well, now he's the Hornet, Bee-Man fades into obscurity, and Hornet gets a fresh start. Until he hurts someone by accident, and becomes Buzzard to avoid any scrutiny.

Absolute freedom from society, from the law, and from any consequences ever affecting you. Who would willingly give that up?


But how many heroes ever actually took that option? And what is the difference between that and what what Gyrich did over at Camp Hammond? He covered up, he lied, I doubt that he'll ever see the inside of a courtroom as a defendent.

Part of the problem with the sra was that no one knew what it was until long after it was passed. To some it was a draft law, to others it was a guideline... it is perhaps the only law ever passed that had no real definition to it until a few months after it was passed. Until Cap's surrender no one really knew what the sra was. Even now I'm not sure anyone is really sure. It's a law printed on a rubber band, not a piece of paper.
What Cap always argued was that the individual effort of one person can make a difference where the diffused and petty goals of the committe can not, and this sort of proved him right. Tony went outside the law, outside the sra and through his individual effort stopped the Mandarin. The difference I guess is that Tony is a politician where Cap was a soldier, Tony knows how to play the system, how to rig the game and control it so that no matter what he comes out on top, rules or morals be damned. I don't like the approach, but there is no arguing that it often brings him sucess.

Mark_S

[jackolover]

And I do think it's kinda neat that the Iron Man book does a better job of showing this aspect of Caps argument, than the CW book did.. really, Millar never bothered stating Caps views on things at all. So it's kinda cool.



Reading Brubakers Cap gives you no idea how Cap was going to react in CW. Cap could best be described as an operative, and as a mushroom, who didn't get told anything. Steve kept close to Tony because Steve could gleen information from him, but Steve was never comfortable with working inside the system.

Tony Stark, on the other hand, we have good information from his Secretary of Defence storyline, and the Road to CW in ASM to show us how Tony operates through the system.

Steve was basically blind sided by the SHRA. I would think Steve would agree he couldn't work with the system very comfortably. The people who stuck by Cap in CW would do so despite a leader sitting in a chair, arms bandaged, leg badly injured, and a bandage over his eye. The Anti-regs never considered replacing Cap, because Cap was the leader of the Avengers, so they had the best on their side.

It sort of makes you consider who were the characters that had a strong affiliation with the system (Tony, Reed, Hank, Jan, Carol, Samson), and those that worked outside the system (Steve, Sam, Peter, Danny, Herc, Panther, Storm,) , and you wouldn't consider Steve Rogers one of those who worked outside, would you? Yet Steve Rogers was for all intents and purposes, just a working class man representing working class America, who had a very strong disaffection towards authority in all it's forms.

[mikekerr3]

Wait, so you don't even BUY the damn book, yet you're on every damn Iron Man thread trashing him?

wow, just wow.

To be fair most of the crimes he and I bash Tony for came before DOS. I read this book just because Tony was proven wrong and Cap right. The wrongs he committed during CW are still in canon, they haven't been justified in the books so he is still the bad guy.

Don't ewad IM m looks to be well written, but I don't read books where the "hero' of the book is a goverment sponsored Thug, who spits on the constitution. Allows his "best Friends" body to be used as bait.

[bulbasteve]

Tony Stark, on the other hand, we have good information from his Secretary of Defence storyline, and the Road to CW in ASM to show us how Tony operates through the system.

By mostly just getting lucky? He pretty much steps on everyones toes and only gets out of a jam by a last minute supervillian attack (either real or fake in the two examples...). For all the talk that he is some expert politician...he really isn't. Just read that very SecDef arc again or the CW tie-ins, I would hardly call him comfortable working through politics.

Maybe there should be a registration act for politicians...those confirmation hearings were a Stamford level showing of total political inemptitude. Of course I guess that was his trial by fire and he is much better at it now (except...you know in half the books where he acts like a jerk for no reason at all).

[bulbasteve]

To be fair most of the crimes he and I bash Tony for came before DOS. I read this book just because Tony was proven wrong and Cap right. The wrongs he committed during CW are still in canon, they haven't been justified in the books so he is still the bad guy.

Don't ewad IM m looks to be well written, but I don't read books where the "hero' of the book is a goverment sponsored Thug, who spits on the constitution. Allows his "best Friends" body to be used as bait.

But you read this issue, so you know the Knauf's justify things a bit more artfully than others. If you want justification on a plot point by plot point basis there was FF and it's time travel stuff afterall. And as I remember you didn't even LIKE that stuff. Isn't it better to deal with the issues more broadly on an emotional level? I though his dealing with Happy's dilemma was the perfect metaphor for everything distastful during CW.

And wait...weren't you and mike arguing in the preview thread for actually KILLING the 97.5% of the population and just sort of ignoring it and having IM exist in it's own little world? So what the heck is wrong then with it being in it's own little world NOW? Clearly the Knauf Iron Man is not the Slott Iron Man, so why even bother to consider them the same when reading the respective books, sure you can annoy us all and keep bringing it up on the forums, but it's silly to put the sins of one writer onto another writer. They did the crime, not the fictional character...he was the victim in all this :p

So instead of not reading anything with IM in it anymore why don't you just not read anything by Slott, JMS and Jenkins?

[jackolover]

For all the talk that he is some expert politician...he really isn't. Just read that very SecDef arc again or the CW tie-ins, I would hardly call him comfortable working through politics.

Yes, I intend to read SecDef to see why he got the job in the first place, and how he navigated through all the politics, as a politician.

Maybe there should be a registration act for politicians...those confirmation hearings were a Stamford level showing of total political ineptitude. Of course I guess that was his trial by fire and he is much better at it now (except...you know in half the books where he acts like a jerk for no reason at all).

I think Tony acting like a jerk is writers interpretation of his character, so I would still keep those stories. My feeling is, that despite Tony's sadness at being involved in Happy's death, and Tony living from day to day as an alcoholic, (it was only that Wanda reacquainted Tony with alcoholism in Avengers Disassembled, to teach him some humility), I'm not surprised, that Tony becomes a little aggressive and pig headed at times. People who have lost someone dear to them and feel guilty about it, have lots of rage issues afterwards. And that can make you look like a jerk.

[mikekerr3]

But you read this issue, so you know the Knauf's justify things a bit more artfully than others. If you want justification on a plot point by plot point basis there was FF and it's time travel stuff afterall. And as I remember you didn't even LIKE that stuff. Isn't it better to deal with the issues more broadly on an emotional level? I though his dealing with Happy's dilemma was the perfect metaphor for everything distastful during CW.

I have ot sen anything in this book to justify Tony's action in CE, what did I miss in this isse that justified him turning into a ruthless thug hunting his friends? I have hot heard in these threads of anything in the Knauf's writing to justify the things he did in CW.

Please tell me where such things were written in any of the Knauf's books, in the interview the Knauf's think that Tony was justified in his CW actions and was heroic. I think he was thuggish. I don't have enough common ground on morals to bother reading their stuff then.

I don't find Tony''s action in CW distasteful I find then criminal and evil

The FF tried to justify Reeds actions with a clumsy assumption that Reed was always right and a explanation of the math that doesn't make sense even just with what was given in the book.


And wait...weren't you and mike arguing

I am mike i wasn't arguing with my self.


And wait...weren't you and mike arguing in the preview thread for actually KILLING the 97.5% of the population and just sort of ignoring it and having IM exist in it's own little world? So what the heck is wrong then with it being in it's own little world NOW? Clearly the Knauf Iron Man is not the Slott Iron Man, so why even bother to consider them the same when reading the respective books, sure you can annoy us all and keep bringing it up on the forums, but it's silly to put the sins of one writer onto another writer. They did the crime, not the fictional character...he was the victim in all this :p

I don't think that a character gets a "get out of jail free" card with a change in writers otherwise Venom would be a nanny in the next writers hands, If that was so no character could be critsied more than a few issues back.

I was arguing with the fact that killing 97.5% of the population would have any effect on the main MU. WWH didn't have any effect on Manhattan, the buildings and everything else were back to normal in days. THATs just sloppy writing by Marvel and I was commenting on it. The concept of a shared universe is falling apart from laziness.


So instead of not reading anything with IM in it anymore why don't you just not read anything by Slott, JMS and Jenkins?

That might have been an option until the Knauf's German analogy in an interview. they said he would have been fighting the Nazi's. The character in the CW would have been ignoring the camps and fighting in the German Army, after all the Mazi Goverment was elected and the law is the law.

JMS didn't think that what Tony was doing was heroic, I don't either why would I stop reading his book. I stopped reading IM when i lost faith the the writers could tell good from evil. They either can't tell or have opposite views from mine.

[bulbasteve]

I have ot sen anything in this book to justify Tony's action in CE, what did I miss in this isse that justified him turning into a ruthless thug hunting his friends? I have hot heard in these threads of anything in the Knauf's writing to justify the things he did in CW.

IM 14 (aka. just about the greatest Iron Man issue ever). It isn't about justifying, they don't live in a black and white world (otherwise they would be attacked by zombies...). Just look at his erm "discussion" with Sue about Reed being his own man and able to make his own decisions, everyone assumes that every crime must be laid at Tony's feet. And hunting his own friends? He cut the life support on his best friend, how much more obvious did the metaphor for his super-relationships and his role in CW did you need?

Please tell me where such things were written in any of the Knauf's books, in the interview the Knauf's think that Tony was justified in his CW actions and was heroic. I think he was thuggish. I don't have enough common ground on morals to bother reading their stuff then.

This is you know....after you have read the issue where they "justified the anti-regs"? They are NOT Jenkins, JMS or Slott. Their own personal (fanboy) opinion doesn't matter in terms of telling the best story. Or are you saying that they are too dumb to know that they justified Caps's side or something? They did bring him up in the damn issue, so I'm pretty sure they knew what they were doing. If anything they are far rougher on our boy Tony than just about any other writers, just look at how hollow the victory was in this issue. You are confusing personal opinion with what they actually WRITE. Maybe we have too many JMS types around and people just assume that all writers hamfistedly put their own ideology into stories. You are making it sound like they wrote somewhere "wow cloning thor was a great idea!" How about you find me where they actually justified him...anywhere...ever? They are better storytellers than to worry about keeping a scorecard of how heroic Tony acts, hell they said as much in their interview here that they don't care what others write and will just keep telling their stories.

The FF tried to justify Reeds actions with a clumsy assumption that Reed was always right and a explanation of the math that doesn't make sense even just with what was given in the book.

Exactly. So if you didn't even like THAT why would you demand it in IM?

I don't think that a character gets a "get out of jail free" card with a change in writers otherwise Venom would be a nanny in the next writers hands, If that was so no character could be critsied more than a few issues back.

Which has nothing to do with the WRITERS. Oh now Howard Mackie wrote Spider-Man, guess I will never read it again even if my favorite writer is on the title...yeesh!

I was arguing with the fact that killing 97.5% of the population would have any effect on the main MU. WWH didn't have any effect on Manhattan, the buildings and everything else were back to normal in days. THATs just sloppy writing by Marvel and I was commenting on it. The concept of a shared universe is falling apart from laziness.

Or how about the fact that not every comic should devote time to such silly things? Would you have rather seen a clean up from WWH than seen the two issues devoted to our dear Gadget? Really? Yeah let's pick up plots from a stupid event rather than creating good comics!

That might have been an option until the Knauf's German analogy in an interview. they said he would have been fighting the Nazi's. The character in the CW would have been ignoring the camps and fighting in the German Army, after all the Mazi Goverment was elected and the law is the law.

Yeah those Mazi's were terrible, right "Mark"? :p (we both get one goof today!)

JMS didn't think that what Tony was doing was heroic, I don't either why would I stop reading his book. I stopped reading IM when i lost faith the the writers could tell good from evil. They either can't tell or have opposite views from mine.

JMS invented pretty much all of the bad things Tony DID. He is the writer, he decided to do all of the poor handeling. The Knauf's didn't write a Tony who was evil. If you hate evil Iron Man blame it on the writers who actually wrote him that way.

Yes, I intend to read SecDef to see why he got the job in the first place, and how he navigated through all the politics, as a politician.

Oh you totally have to. It's pretty much just 6 straight issues of West Wing style politics aka. a damn fun time. I hardly want to spoil it for you (though umm I just did in the previous post >>), but Tony being a politician has nothing to do with him getting in (and he had someone guiding him through the politics the whole time...he really pretty much totally sucked at it).

[Teh m0nk3y]

I see that we're at it again.

Just read the issue yesterday and got to say I loved it for the most part. Didn't like the rushed ending, but the issue had me smiling from ear to ear.
This book is up there with Brubaker's Captain America. Great work indeed.

The ending of the book with the empty Mandarin extremis shell has me thinking that he died. The shell was intact before the Chinese government officials were able to crack it open, and the Mandarin had stated he didn't have the genes needed for surviving the process.

[IronStarks]

I see that we're at it again.

Just read the issue yesterday and got to say I loved it for the most part. Didn't like the rushed ending, but the issue had me smiling from ear to ear.
This book is up there with Brubaker's Captain America. Great work indeed.

The ending of the book with the empty Mandarin extremis shell has me thinking that he died. The shell was intact before the Chinese government officials were able to crack it open, and the Mandarin had stated he didn't have the genes needed for surviving the process.


I was under the impression that Mandarin lied about not haveing the genes to survive and that he is alive now with extremis powers.

[Tobias Drake]

I see that we're at it again.

Just read the issue yesterday and got to say I loved it for the most part. Didn't like the rushed ending, but the issue had me smiling from ear to ear.
This book is up there with Brubaker's Captain America. Great work indeed.

The ending of the book with the empty Mandarin extremis shell has me thinking that he died. The shell was intact before the Chinese government officials were able to crack it open, and the Mandarin had stated he didn't have the genes needed for surviving the process.

When it comes to comics, I live by the rule that if you don't see a definitive corpse, the character survived. And if you do see a definitive corpse, the character may still have survived.

[mikekerr3]

IM 14 (aka. just about the greatest Iron Man issue ever). It isn't about justifying, they don't live in a black and white world (otherwise they would be attacked by zombies...). Just look at his erm "discussion" with Sue about Reed being his own man and able to make his own decisions, everyone assumes that every crime must be laid at Tony's feet. And hunting his own friends? He cut the life support on his best friend, how much more obvious did the metaphor for his super-relationships and his role in CW did you need?
I never have blamed Tony for reeds actions, Reed is as much a criminal as Tony.

I don't see the cutting of lfe support a metaphore, have had to make that decision myself, its just showing him has human.



This is you know....after you have read the issue where they "justified the anti-regs"? They are NOT Jenkins, JMS or Slott. Their own personal (fanboy) opinion doesn't matter in terms of telling the best story. Or are you saying that they are too dumb to know that they justified Caps's side or something? They did bring him up in the damn issue, so I'm pretty sure they knew what they were doing. If anything they are far rougher on our boy Tony than just about any other writers, just look at how hollow the victory was in this issue. You are confusing personal opinion with what they actually WRITE. Maybe we have too many JMS types around and people just assume that all writers hamfistedly put their own ideology into stories. You are making it sound like they wrote somewhere "wow cloning thor was a great idea!" How about you find me where they actually justified him...anywhere...ever? They are better storytellers than to worry about keeping a scorecard of how heroic Tony acts, hell they said as much in their interview here that they don't care what others write and will just keep telling their stories.

They have not had Tony pay for his mistakes they have shown him become the director of Shield after becoming a villain, evil was rewarded. I will read IM again when Tony pays more of a price than Angst.

They might not care about continuity but I do.



Exactly. So if you didn't even like THAT why would you demand it in IM?

Maybe they can do a better job, the other charcters in the FF stayed heroic, just one turned into a creep. IM has only one primary character and his recent history shows him as a thug and a bully



Which has nothing to do with the WRITERS. Oh now Howard Mackie wrote Spider-Man, guess I will never read it again even if my favorite writer is on the title...yeesh!

I don't follow writers much, I follow characters. Untill there is some kind of justice shown or real repentence. IM is still a villian.



Or how about the fact that not every comic should devote time to such silly things? Would you have rather seen a clean up from WWH than seen the two issues devoted to our dear Gadget? Really? Yeah let's pick up plots from a stupid event rather than creating good comics!

Didn't have to make any real change in stories just have an editor who cared enough to show reconstruction in the background of a frame, just little things.

Continity of a shared universe is what built Marvel they are letting it slide lately





JMS invented pretty much all of the bad things Tony DID. He is the writer, he decided to do all of the poor handeling. The Knauf's didn't write a Tony who was evil. If you hate evil Iron Man blame it on the writers who actually wrote him that way.

I don't blame the Knaufs, except that anyone who calls what Tony did during CW heroic has to little in common with me in morals and veiwpoint for me to enjoy reading. you have to have some common ground with the writer and I see know place where that exists, Thier view Tony , and by inference right and wrong, is too alien to me.

JMS wrote tony as the kind of thug that would hunt down his friends for not submitting to an unconstitutional law and that was the point of the CW. If he has sung the praises of Iron Thug I would not read his IM either



Oh you totally have to. It's pretty much just 6 straight issues of West Wing style politics aka. a damn fun time. I hardly want to spoil it for you (though umm I just did in the previous post >>), but Tony being a politician has nothing to do with him getting in (and he had someone guiding him through the politics the whole time...he really pretty much totally sucked at it).

Tony got the job because he was willing to build gulags, have a mass murderer as deputy, betray his friends, Help clone Hero's DNA into killing machines and use the constitution as toilet paper, Just what the MU goverment wants in a Director of Shield. He will use "any means necessary" without being stopped by conscience or morality.

[bulbasteve]

I see that we're at it again.
Just read the issue yesterday and got to say I loved it for the most part. Didn't like the rushed ending, but the issue had me smiling from ear to ear.

I think that was the point of it, both from a story perspective and I guess maybe even from a meta one too. It was both rushed, a bit cliche and at least from how the art portrayed it pretty darn hollow. But then you got what happens after that scene to tell you that it isn't wrapped up in a nice little bow...and the look on Tony's face makes me think he has the suspicion it isn't either.

The ending of the book with the empty Mandarin extremis shell has me thinking that he died. The shell was intact before the Chinese government officials were able to crack it open, and the Mandarin had stated he didn't have the genes needed for surviving the process.

It certainly is done so that you can take it both ways...but seeing as how this would be part 2 of the Mandarin triology I gotta think he will be back (or...maybe his son...he had to get the rings somehow in that damn modok mini).

Though I don't think Mandarin would lie... there must be some x-factor with either the freezing process, or the rings that made it different...I just don't think Mandarin was anything but honest (especially given his inner monologue at the end of the issue from the previous one).

But remember "Time has no meaning in The Machine"? Look at that monologue, it could equally be talking about that...

I never have blamed Tony for reeds actions, Reed is as much a criminal as Tony.

Yet we just talked about how Reed literally mathamatically calculated and set up what happened in CW, we never got any indiciation on HOW the decisions were made.

I don't see the cutting of lfe support a metaphore, have had to make that decision myself, its just showing him has human.

Come on, your going to make them think comicfans don't know writing 101 with that talk :(

Let's see two things he was against originally if not outright morally opposed to but both times convinced by a woman struck by the tragedy into taking the action, both leading to the deaths of his best friend. Yeah man no metaphor there! And the heartbreaking final page literally putting that action side by side with Reed and Pete, yeah not saying they are related there either! Oh and here it is just cause it's so damn great: http://bp2.blogger.com/_5VgL6ZXwkaw/RYsjLEpRGcI/AAAAAAAAAYw/eEk3gFjh0-E/s1600-h/IronMan14-2.JPG

They have not had Tony pay for his mistakes they have shown him become the director of Shield after becoming a villain, evil was rewarded. I will read IM again when Tony pays more of a price than Angst.

Rewarded? Rewarded with the worst job in the world where Tony is in total misery half the time? Oh yeah that great job! How can you complain Reed was whitewashed and didn't actually in any real sense deal with his family issues on the one hand and want a personal story and on the other say you don't want a personal story with Tony on the other. You thought that Thor beating up Tony was more impactful than his issues dealing with say Gadget or Team Alpha? Come the hell on. THAT is paying a price for the decision you put yourself in, not a literal angry god smiting in some karmic justice.

They might not care about continuity but I do.

So you focused on one panel of Avengers Tower being there and just totally ignored or it somehow ruined his ghostly meeting with Cap or I don't know....everything with Gadget?

I don't follow writers much, I follow characters. Untill there is some kind of justice shown or real repentence. IM is still a villian.

That is why bad writers are allowed on books...Cause you know I love me some Deadpool but you know, if the new writers sucks...hey guess what I sure as hell am not reading it (and I don't have very high hopes...)

I don't blame the Knaufs, except that anyone who calls what Tony did during CW heroic has to little in common with me in morals and veiwpoint for me to enjoy reading. you have to have some common ground with the writer and I see know place where that exists, Thier view Tony , and by inference right and wrong, is too alien to me.

Again, artist vs the art. Their own opinions have nothing to do with the book. I find it pretty ironic that you say you don't care or follow writers but when a writer says something in an interview you don't agree with suddenly they are **** listed. Aside from the fact they were just talking in general about supporting the SHRA and not the particular actions as I recall...

JMS wrote tony as the kind of thug that would hunt down his friends for not submitting to an unconstitutional law and that was the point of the CW. If he has sung the praises of Iron Thug I would not read his IM either

It was the point of CW, FOR THAT WRITER. There was nothing inherent in the concept of CW that said that Tony had to be punching Spider-Man through walls (especially when it's literally contradicted in the main book).

Tony got the job because he was willing to build gulags, have a mass murderer as deputy, betray his friends, Help clone Hero's DNA into killing machines and use the constitution as toilet paper, Just what the MU goverment wants in a Director of Shield. He will use "any means necessary" without being stopped by conscience or morality.

Because I was totally talking about CW and not the "The best defense" which took place years earlier!

It's bad enough with the off topic, worse when it's wrong. Since you know, they actually have said at least twice why they wanted him for the job and that never came up (and why would they even want a loose cannon after wanting a yes-woman like Hill?)

[Teh m0nk3y]

I was under the impression that Mandarin lied about not haveing the genes to survive and that he is alive now with extremis powers.

When it comes to comics, I live by the rule that if you don't see a definitive corpse, the character survived. And if you do see a definitive corpse, the character may still have survived.

Which I'm all open for. As it has been stated, the ending can be interpreted both ways. :smile:

I think that was the point of it, both from a story perspective and I guess maybe even from a meta one too. It was both rushed, a bit cliche and at least from how the art portrayed it pretty darn hollow. But then you got what happens after that scene to tell you that it isn't wrapped up in a nice little bow...and the look on Tony's face makes me think he has the suspicion it isn't either.



It certainly is done so that you can take it both ways...but seeing as how this would be part 2 of the Mandarin triology I gotta think he will be back (or...maybe his son...he had to get the rings somehow in that damn modok mini).

Though I don't think Mandarin would lie... there must be some x-factor with either the freezing process, or the rings that made it different...I just don't think Mandarin was anything but honest (especially given his inner monologue at the end of the issue from the previous one).

But remember "Time has no meaning in The Machine"? Look at that monologue, it could equally be talking about that...


Though, it doesn't necessarily have to be a living breathing Mandarin, it could just as well be the son you mentioned... Or a scheme plotted earlier and will go into effect because of some contingency etc. Whatever the Knauf's have planned, I'm excited and can't wait for the third part.

[bulbasteve]

You know, "The Mandarin is gone." was never said in the actual speech in issue 17, there he went on to talk about his son....

iiiiiinteresting.

[mikekerr3]

It's bad enough with the off topic, worse when it's wrong. Since you know, they actually have said at least twice why they wanted him for the job and that never came up (and why would they even want a loose cannon after wanting a yes-woman like Hill?)

I did not say that they wanted a loose cannon they wanted a ruthless thug, Iron man fit the bill perfectly, The MU goverment likes murderous thugs. Osborn Hill and Gyrich all fit the description and all work for the goverment, They didn't say why, because Tony is enough of a tool to believe they have good intentions.

For me to read IM as a heo would require just a few things:

Some half-way reasonable explanation of why Tony gave peter the speach in 42, the man that gave the speech was a villain. He has said later he was lying but lying then was completely stupid. If it was a writers mistake fix it in the books, though that would make the whole BND thing fall apart.

Why Tony after NA#6 allows hill to be deputy director of Shield
he knows she murdered innocent people. She started the action in the CW making the war much worse. He hasn't found out that shield attempted genocide yet?

Clor, even the silly math stuff in FF doesn't explain Clor.

Why was it ok to shoot an ambassador, even punching one can be considered terrorism. It is always considered an act of War.

when those thing are explained I will consider him a hero untill the he will remain in my mind always Iron Thug

[bulbasteve]

Yeeeeeeeeeeah....back to Iron Man...

Ooops the PIT is where time doesn't exist, not the machine...

But uuh I was just re-reading the Knaufs interview on advancediron, and they said Red Rain (which was what these two issues were originally) was going to be the last cycle of the mandarin triology.

So umm...does the fact they changed it to an extended Haunted mean that it isn't the end...or was that just a name change and this really is it. Then again the ending can be read both ways, so maybe it is good it is up in the air. Then again it wouldn't technically be part of the "Mandarin Triology" if "The mandarin is gone"...clever bastards...

[jackolover]

For all the talk that he is some expert politician...he really isn't. Just read that very SecDef arc again or the CW tie-ins, I would hardly call him comfortable working through politics.



I have now read Iron Man #77 - 83, and I wouldn't say Tony was uncomfortable with politics at all. In fact I'd say he handled himself like a he was on top of his game. The books didn't show very much SecDef meetings, but what they did show had Tony on the pulse of what was going on, and if he wasn't then Bush sent him in to Irak to find out for himself. Nobody was showing him around, as Tony was a take charge person, so his style was typically Stark Industries. And the books did deal with single specific incidents, and not a landscape of concerns on the plate of a real Sec Def.

So out of the 2 men, Tony and Steve Rogers, before CW, Tony had the more experience inside the system. I think Cap once ran for President, but never actually got the job, so I think Steve still has less experince in Politics than Tony.

[Mark_S]

Cap thought of running for President but decided against it (generating a not to bad What If issue later), the time when superheroes could run for public office and keep their ID's a secret seems to have passed. A far cry from the days that Batgirl could become a congresswoman.

If the Mandarin is to survive in some form I'd sort of like a daughter of his to become the new Mandarin, marvel needs more good female villains.

Mark_S

[bulbasteve]

I have now read Iron Man #77 - 83, and I wouldn't say Tony was uncomfortable with politics at all. In fact I'd say he handled himself like a he was on top of his game. The books didn't show very much SecDef meetings, but what they did show had Tony on the pulse of what was going on, and if he wasn't then Bush sent him in to Irak to find out for himself. Nobody was showing him around, as Tony was a take charge person, so his style was typically Stark Industries. And the books did deal with single specific incidents, and not a landscape of concerns on the plate of a real Sec Def.

So out of the 2 men, Tony and Steve Rogers, before CW, Tony had the more experience inside the system. I think Cap once ran for President, but never actually got the job, so I think Steve still has less experince in Politics than Tony.

Well if you mean becoming SecDef cause you happened to save washington and otherwise they were literally just about to turn you down for the job as being an expert politician than I better start hoping New York is attacked by Godzilla so Hillary can save the day :p

[Mark_S]

I

It was the point of CW, FOR THAT WRITER. There was nothing inherent in the concept of CW that said that Tony had to be punching Spider-Man through walls (especially when it's literally contradicted in the main book).



It is part of the nature of modern comics that a good writer suffers because of a bad writer. A bad interpretation of the character-without any editorial control-will stay with a fan for a very long time. The Knauf's are having the same problem now that the current writers of Supergirl are having, and that any DC writers who uses the Amazon's later will have. Readers like me and Mikerr follow the characters, those who write the characters are in many ways secondary. They are the people behind the scenes, not out in front (depsite what many of their egos seem to say). I read because I am interested in the characters, not the writers, and when they act in ways I don't consider true, or even right, I'll say so and perhaps even loose interest in the character. With marvel's scattershot approach to editing Tony has been portrayed in nearly every different way, but all of them stem from his actions in cw and none of them have fully addressed the kind of evil committed by the pro-sra crowd in cw. They've had Tony regretfull, depressed and yelled at, and at least once beaten up. None of that changes what he did and what he continues to do, wich is in my opinion to be the governments main bully boy. (as seen in She-Hulk) with occaisional flashes of humanity.

The Knauf's are going to be stuck with the cw portrayal for a very long time, as will Fraction and the rest. It is the legacy of poor writing and bad editing. Some readers are just so bitter about the lack of quality and the dismissal of any sort of moral standard by the characters that the writers at marvel will have to write three times as well as before to satisfy us.
I'm sorry if that sounds selfish, but that is how I feel. You can curse me and dismiss me as part of an over-vocal minority, but my feelings stand and will stand until marvel again approaches something like the quality I feel that they are capable of producing.

Mark_S

[bulbasteve]

You can curse me and dismiss me as part of an over-vocal minority, but my feelings stand and will stand until marvel again approaches something like the quality I feel that they are capable of producing.

Mark_S

But that is the problem. This isn't just any book. I don't care if you personally loathe the X-Men so don't read anything about them (I sure don't...except you know...astonishing...and sometimes uncanny...cause of the writers, heh), but this is literally the best book that Marvel is producing. This isn't just a switch of creative teams that tell the same generic story so it doesn't matter, this is leaps and bounds above anything Marvel current puts out (yes even Cap!). Cause come on, are you saying I should not read Cap cause I hated him in CW (hell do you read cap...cause its practically his second...well third ongoing).

[jackolover]

Well if you mean becoming SecDef cause you happened to save washington and otherwise they were literally just about to turn you down for the job as being an expert politician than I better start hoping New York is attacked by Godzilla so Hillary can save the day :p

I am aware of politicians and their luck in elections, and what was portrayed in SecDef represents that kind of luck. Tony demonstrated he can do the job, as well as talk the talk during the campaigning. He didn't need Godzilla to justify his presence in the Pentagon.

And I did enjoy the quandary Tony found himself in, when he did go by the rules and the system seemed to go against him, but he was encouraged to keep going, because following the rules was the only way things got done. He carried this lesson, the most, into CW.

[Iron_Stark]

Cap thought of running for President but decided against it (generating a not to bad What If issue later), the time when superheroes could run for public office and keep their ID's a secret seems to have passed. A far cry from the days that Batgirl could become a congresswoman.

If the Mandarin is to survive in some form I'd sort of like a daughter of his to become the new Mandarin, marvel needs more good female villains.

Mark_S

Sue Storm, she's a bad person for constantly abandoning her kids and having her all night romps with Namor. All she needs is that little exrta push to be a full on villain.

[Tobias Drake]

I think what mikekerr3 and Mark_S are trying to say is this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html).

[Pyro]

Yeeeeeeeeeeah....back to Iron Man...

Ooops the PIT is where time doesn't exist, not the machine...

But uuh I was just re-reading the Knaufs interview on advancediron, and they said Red Rain (which was what these two issues were originally) was going to be the last cycle of the mandarin triology.

So umm...does the fact they changed it to an extended Haunted mean that it isn't the end...or was that just a name change and this really is it. Then again the ending can be read both ways, so maybe it is good it is up in the air. Then again it wouldn't technically be part of the "Mandarin Triology" if "The mandarin is gone"...clever bastards...Oh. Well, that's a little disappointing. I was expecting a little more Knauf Mandarin... Oh well! After Moore's arc, we've got Madame Masque and hopefully more Knauf goodness after that! And like you said, this ending was left open so who knows if we'll see a return of the Mandarin before they're gone.

I wonder why they considered their Mandarin story a trilogy? I'm not quite sure where the divisions between the story are.

[Karthak]

I'm always suprised that the anti-reg crowd sill exists. I havent read the issue yet but I like the way Tony defeats Mandarin (scans on wizard's website). The hand to Hand fighting in this arc has been better than any comic out there (including immortal Iron-Fist). I get my comics on fridays in the UK and its a shame that I cant contribute to threads properly before thread drift takes place. I'll be back when I've read the issue on Friday

"Waves hand". I'm firmly anti-reg, and I've become even more so after reading the Thunderbolts and Avengers: the initiative. If registration means that Venom can eat your arm and get away with it, and that crazy nazi scientists can make clone soldiers out of a dead boy and get away with it, then it's definitely unsound.

[bulbasteve]

I am aware of politicians and their luck in elections, and what was portrayed in SecDef represents that kind of luck. Tony demonstrated he can do the job, as well as talk the talk during the campaigning. He didn't need Godzilla to justify his presence in the Pentagon.

This was more than luck, he was literally going to be turned down before the attack and the only wiggle room was an awesome plot point about the fact he was literally going to lose but got out of it through a motion to reconsider (seriously! Ahh that was fun times)

And I did enjoy the quandary Tony found himself in, when he did go by the rules and the system seemed to go against him, but he was encouraged to keep going, because following the rules was the only way things got done. He carried this lesson, the most, into CW.

Indeed he did! But really...you are saying the guy who loudly proclaims "I am going to end death in war forever" is a shrewd politician? Reeeeally!?

Oh. Well, that's a little disappointing. I was expecting a little more Knauf Mandarin... Oh well! After Moore's arc, we've got Madame Masque and hopefully more Knauf goodness after that! And like you said, this ending was left open so who knows if we'll see a return of the Mandarin before they're gone.

I wonder why they considered their Mandarin story a trilogy? I'm not quite sure where the divisions between the story are.

Well, the original Director of SHIELD stuff with him in the asylum would be the first arc (and maybe eeeverything before depending on how much the terrorists may be involoved if this keeps going), the 2nd being the first 6 issues of Haunted and these last two issues were originally called Red Rain. And...I can see why they didn't make it a new arc...why end Haunted on a cliffhanger...

The Madame Masque stuff is gunna be more interesting after that kiss...I honestly kinda forgot all about his and Maya's relationship till I looked back at 17 to find the speech (certainly enough parrallels with trying to save em...)

[rogerio]

Oh. Well, that's a little disappointing. I was expecting a little more Knauf Mandarin... Oh well! After Moore's arc, we've got Madame Masque and hopefully more Knauf goodness after that! And like you said, this ending was left open so who knows if we'll see a return of the Mandarin before they're gone.

I wonder why they considered their Mandarin story a trilogy? I'm not quite sure where the divisions between the story are.
yeah...and I really hope Roberto de la Torre stays onboard...:smile:

[bulbasteve]

yeah...and I really hope Roberto de la Torre stays onboard...:smile:

He kinds has to, he is pretty much the reason why they have gone to a whole new level in DoS. They just give the writers some random hack and suddenly no more visual storytelling. For all the love for Cap you could read the story by just the word balloons and get pretty much everything, if you did that with IM you would miss half the character development since it's all done with facial experessions and body language.

[Mark_S]

I think what mikekerr3 and Mark_S are trying to say is this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html).

Nice comic.
Pretty much, and I'm hoping that Fraction's title will be about this. I'd like for Tony to find himself up against a foe that he needs help with, but the only help he can get is from an anti-regger who had his life shattered in cw and just plain refuses, leaving Tony to defeat the menace all on his own, but with a lot more difficulty. In the process inocent poeple are hurt or killed but when Tony confronts the anti-regger the guy just turns away and Tony realizes that his actions in cw burned the nobility in this person to a cinder. And while the man is as responsible for the innocents being hurt Tony realizes that some of the responsibility is his. (this could be one of the people who's true ID Tony figured out and sent Ms. Marvel after) And he could wrestle with how much is or is not his to shoulder. This is the type of aftermath I expected out of marvel, but I haven't really seen it yet.
And I'd really like to see Tony confront an anti-regger who was in 42 and simply does not believe that they ever let him out, that he is in a vr sim in 42 and this is Tony's way of altering his mind.

There is a lot of potential here. It's fine to see Tony wrestling with his own ghost, but that is still only him, I've yet to here of him really facing some of the human cost of his actions in cw or after, and passing a note to Jen really isn't going to do it.

Mark_S

[Mark_S]

Sue Storm, she's a bad person for constantly abandoning her kids and having her all night romps with Namor. All she needs is that little exrta push to be a full on villain.

Tony at the mercy of Malice? Ok, there is a R-rated fanfic waiting to be written.:evilsmile:

Mark_S

[Mark_S]

But that is the problem. This isn't just any book. I don't care if you personally loathe the X-Men so don't read anything about them (I sure don't...except you know...astonishing...and sometimes uncanny...cause of the writers, heh), but this is literally the best book that Marvel is producing. This isn't just a switch of creative teams that tell the same generic story so it doesn't matter, this is leaps and bounds above anything Marvel current puts out (yes even Cap!). Cause come on, are you saying I should not read Cap cause I hated him in CW (hell do you read cap...cause its practically his second...well third ongoing).

I don't follow writers that much. What draws me to a title is the characters, the cover and the price, not always in that order. If it's a new character then I might glance at the writer just out of curiosity, but the name of the writer won't stop me from buying the book. Every new character deserves at least one good read through no matter who wrote him/her/it/them.

I don't read the X-men that much either, if the current mu is a wasteland without hope the X-men are in the bad section of that wasteland. To be an X-man is to live in misery with no hope of anything but constant battles against U.S. Government and other forces. I don't think it'll be long before Tony sics the Avengers or one of the other teams on the X-men with orders to bring them in dead or alive. I'm amazed that the Thunderbolts haven't been sent in already. And I'll never understand why the X-men keep fighting for humanity.

Of the three books I was able to afford last week there was PS-238, Countdown and She-Hulk. I don't deny that the Knauf's are probably writing a good story, but Tony is stil the central character and Tony is evil to me. Evil-light perhaps because he cries about his deeds, but evil non-the-less, and marvel made him this way in cw. That sort of stain stays with a character for a very long time.
If I had the money I would buy the title and I might enjoy it, but in the same way I sometimes pick up Ms. Marvel, to cheer the villain on. But I do keep up as much as possible without actually buying the book. If Marvel would drop the price to a dollar I'd pick it up.

Mark_S

[MichaelChen]

Why don't you just go away? Go away. Go away. Go post on some threads that have nothing to do with Iron Man. We're sick of you. Go away. Go away.

[Silver Centurion]

Oh, great. Another thread with the word "Iron Man" or "Tony Stark" in the topic title dissolving into a debate about the SHRA. Not enough of those.

[MichaelChen]

Oh, great. Another thread with the word "Iron Man" or "Tony Stark" in the topic title dissolving into a debate about the SHRA. Not enough of those.

It's because Mark S keeps hijacking threads and won't go away. He should go away. Someone make him go away and never come back.

[XPac]

Oh, great. Another thread with the word "Iron Man" or "Tony Stark" in the topic title dissolving into a debate about the SHRA. Not enough of those.

This issue was in large part ABOUT a number of SHRA issues, so I don't see the problem.

[bulbasteve]

Maybe we should start a thread that is "Knauf's Iron Man discussion", that way they can't post since they don't read it!

Also, seriously, I wish this issue came out when the armor contest was still going on, that Silver Centurion armor was gorgious...that panel where he cuts his foot off and they show him screaming with his eyes shifted downward, have blood coming out of his mouth and show the giant freakin foot dent on his face was just the best.

It's just like talking to a brick wall with Mark, the first two issues of this arc was all about the human cost of CW with the death of Gadget. Hey guys it's called a metaphor! You know to express something dramatically in the story rather than just talking about and rehasing plots from other books....I know...crazy stuff!

[brundlefly]

Oh, great. Another thread with the word "Iron Man" or "Tony Stark" in the topic title dissolving into a debate about the SHRA. Not enough of those.

Frankly, it's the ranting and hatred towards a fictional character (Tony Stark) as opposed to laying the blame with those writers who did poor job with him during Civil War (JMS, Jenkins, etc.) that befuddles me. Trouble distinguishing fiction from reality, perhaps?


It's because Mark S keeps hijacking threads and won't go away. He should go away. Someone make him go away and never come back.

Posting endless negativity and topic digressions in a thread that is about a book that one admittedly doesn't read starring a character that one admittedly hates does seem to border on trolling, imo. And he's not the only one....

[XPac]

Frankly, it's the ranting and hatred towards a fictional character (Tony Stark) as opposed to laying the blame with those writers who did poor job with him during Civil War (JMS, Jenkins, etc.) that befuddles me. Trouble distinguishing fiction from reality, perhaps?

.

I honestly think plenty of people do both.

A lot of bad writing was necessarily to make Civil War happen, on both sides. And there's plenty of criticism in that regard. But arguing the philisophical and ethical issues that went along with the various characters actions is really a seperate issue from the writing.

[Teh m0nk3y]

My problem is that the discussions of the current issues always devolve into the same old Civil War disputes.
Which would be fine by me if it was in a thread concerning Civil War, and not a thread concerning issue 27 or 26.
It's ok in this thread because issue 28 touched upon CW.
However, issues prior to the current one had no excuse for devolving into the tired CW discussion.
Discuss the current events at hand. It's ok if you want to criticize Stark, but at least use stuff that happened in the current issue of Director of SHIELD.

If a poster has this urge to debate CW and Stark's role in it, then make a thread for it. Stop derailing threads that are actually about the latest issues.

[Silver Centurion]

Merely frustrating when a topic encouraging discussion about the latest Iron Man issue stems away from that and the usual anti-reg and pro-reg debates run rampant once again.

Anyway, I thoroughly enjoyed this issue, a phenomenal conclusion to a great arc that left me excited and greatly anticipating the next, issue after issue. The fight between Shellhead and Mandarin was brutal but great. I love the treatment the Knauf's have given Mandarin and I sincerely hope that before they part with the title, they will revisit the character, especially since he five rings short and very likely Extremis enhanced.

I also was relieved that Maya Hansen survived the whole ordeal. I think the whole thing has given the character depth, plus it's nice that the Knauf's were not completely intent on killing off every possible supporting cast member. :tongue: But keeping her alive allows Marvel to pull out the creator of Extremis whenever they decide to purge Tony of the enhancile.

I'm very much looking forward to their take on Madame Masque.

[Mark_S]

Not trolling, merely stating opinions. No one here has to respond at all. You could just keep discussing what you like and ignore my post entirely. But instead you use up time and energy typing away at me. As I have stated before if you want to lable a thread "Iron man: Postive only" or some such I will not post there. But an open discussion about the title and the character is an open discussion. If the moderators want to call me on any post, if they feel I've been abusive or out of line then that is up to them.
Other than that I won't be shouted off this board. My opinions are as valid as anyone elses and I will state them and I'm wrong I will admit it.

Mark_S

[MichaelChen]

Go away. Go away. Go away. GO AWAY!!

[Mark_S]

Go away. Go away. Go away. GO AWAY!!

No.

Mark_S

[MichaelChen]

Can't someone make him go away?

[Teh m0nk3y]

Not trolling, merely stating opinions. No one here has to respond at all. You could just keep discussing what you like and ignore my post entirely. But instead you use up time and energy typing away at me. As I have stated before if you want to lable a thread "Iron man: Postive only" or some such I will not post there. But an open discussion about the title and the character is an open discussion. If the moderators want to call me on any post, if they feel I've been abusive or out of line then that is up to them.
Other than that I won't be shouted off this board. My opinions are as valid as anyone elses and I will state them and I'm wrong I will admit it.

Mark_S

I believe that it's not that people are against negative opinion about Director of SHIELD. It's that most of the negative criticism comes from the Civil War event and from books not written by the Knauf's. If you want to write a negative critic or point out stuff... Please use relevant stuff that ties into the current plot and current motivations of the characters or the current writers intents, and not rehash the beatings of a dead horse. This old pro- and anti-registration debates usually tend to happen in the latest Director of Shield threads.
The Fraction interviews are fair game since the series hasn't come out yet. No way to know what subjects Fraction will be touching aside from "redemption" and a villain with a connection to the past.

[brundlefly]

I believe that it's not that people are against negative opinion about Director of SHIELD. It's that most of the negative criticism comes from the Civil War event and from books not written by the Knauf's. If you want to write a negative critic or point out stuff... Please use relevant stuff that ties into the current plot and current motivations of the characters or the current writers intents, and not rehash the beatings of a dead horse. This old pro- and anti-registration debates usually tend to happen in the latest Director of Shield threads.
The Fraction interviews are fair game since the series hasn't come out yet. No way to know what subjects Fraction will be touching aside from "redemption" and a villain with a connection to the past.

QFT. If one wishes to complain on and on (and on) about how Tony Stark acted in Civil War, why not start a thread about that instead of constantly hijacking threads pertaining to the latest issue of his solo series in order to rant about his actions during a crossover from 2006. I don't see the threads about Captain America's solo title getting dive-bombed every month by anti-Cap pro-reggers railing against him for opposing registration during Civil War.

[jackolover]

Indeed he did! But really...you are saying the guy who loudly proclaims "I am going to end death in war forever" is a shrewd politician? Reeeeally!?

Not sure where you got the expression from by my post. Can you please explain how I am agreeing to your statement?



Well, the original Director of SHIELD stuff with him in the asylum would be the first arc (and maybe eeeverything before depending on how much the terrorists may be involoved if this keeps going), the 2nd being the first 6 issues of Haunted and these last two issues were originally called Red Rain. And...I can see why they didn't make it a new arc...why end Haunted on a cliffhanger...



Yes, that really fits with the fact #28 stopped so abrupty. There could have been another few issues to help round this whole thing out.

[bulbasteve]

Not sure where you got the expression from by my post. Can you please explain how I am agreeing to your statement?

Sarcasm...

Yes, that really fits with the fact #28 stopped so abrupty. There could have been another few issues to help round this whole thing out.

Well then it would have been even more decompressed, we can't assume Mandy was just sitting around for a week after Tony kicked his ass the first time.

[jackolover]

My problem is that the discussions of the current issues always devolve into the same old Civil War disputes.
Which would be fine by me if it was in a thread concerning Civil War, and not a thread concerning issue 27 or 26.
It's ok in this thread because issue 28 touched upon CW.
However, issues prior to the current one had no excuse for devolving into the tired CW discussion.
Discuss the current events at hand. It's ok if you want to criticize Stark, but at least use stuff that happened in the current issue of Director of SHIELD.

If a poster has this urge to debate CW and Stark's role in it, then make a thread for it. Stop derailing threads that are actually about the latest issues.

I don't mind the devolving into CW issues. I think the more people distribute their views on the whys and wherefores of characters like Tony Starks motivations, the more us readers can understand the other persons side. I, for instance, have gleaned plenty about how people think, from these discussions, and found it very helpfull.

I wouldn't want the moderators to interfere, because I feel there is a service to providing elaboration about something (CW) that is still bugging a lot of the fans who went through it. And thats not just as a reader, but as persons who invested in characters and how they are written.

[Trey]

So where were Mandarin's minions? And why didn't he use his power rings? Did he have all 10 fused in his spine?

Just some minor quibles, overall awesome story, and the art is kickass.

[jackolover]

So where were Mandarin's minions? And why didn't he use his power rings? Did he have all 10 fused in his spine?

Just some minor quibles, overall awesome story, and the art is kickass.

So how do the power rings compare to the Infinity Gems?

[XPac]

Merely frustrating when a topic encouraging discussion about the latest Iron Man issue stems away from that and the usual anti-reg and pro-reg debates run rampant once again.



Well, like I said I really don't see that as a problem in THIS thread since this particular issue of CW actually dealt with a lot of SHRA issues. If Iron Man himself in the story is discussing Captain America and the SHRA, then I think it's fair game for discussion in THIS thread.

Honestly, I think this is actually one of the most important issues showing the fallout from CW.

[MichaelChen]

And why didn't he use his power rings?






He did a little, just not very creatively. The thing with the Mandarin is, that between his superhuman chi martial arts powers, and all his rings, he's nearly invincible if he combined them all logically. It's like having Fist of The North Star and Sersi attack you at the same time.

So writers just don't make him do so. You have some fights, like this one in #28, where almost all he uses is the Fist of The North Star-ish kung fu powers. And other fights where the Chi /martial arts stuff is ignored and all he uses are the rings. Writers never have him make full use of both because, well, Iron Man wouldn't stand a chance against him.

Really, the list of guys who can beat a totally PIS-free Mandarin is pretty short, and Iron Man isn't on the list.

[mikekerr3]

Can't someone make him go away?

No only the moderators, what's the matter can't stand a little disagreement. Pooor bab:wink:

[MichaelChen]

It's not a "little disagreement", it's endless, endless rehashing of the same crap in thread after thread after thread after thread for years! This should be a cool thread about Iron Man saving the world from the Mandarin's insane scheme in a really cool story. Instead it has been turned into yet another of Mark S's endless loathesome troll threads. I want him to go away. Leave those of us who want to talk about the current storyline in peace.

[mikekerr3]

It's not a "little disagreement", it's endless, endless rehashing of the same crap in thread after thread after thread after thread for years! This should be a cool thread about Iron Man saving the world from the Mandarin's insane scheme in a really cool story. Instead it has been turned into yet another of Mark S's endless loathesome troll threads. I want him to go away. Leave those of us who want to talk about the current storyline in peace.

I might agree with you except the the CW and Tony's role in play a prominent role in this issue.

I dispise Irom man as much Mark does I only read this issue to see tony proven wrong and the Anti-regs right. I Don't read Iron Thug otherwise

Tony ignored orrders to investigate the Mandarin when he was supposed to be on "vacation:. The CSA/UN board found him guilty. It took an armed raid by Shield under false pretenses to allow him to beat the Mandarin,

The last issue you would have a point, maybe the next one , here the CW and Tony we