Don't Leave Us Hanging

[badMike]

So, you wrote that whole first section of the column and didn't once mention which "icon" you were debating?

Come on, which character was it?

My guess: Sherlock Holmes

[Steven Grant]

Sure, go with that.

- Grant

[Crucified Elvis]

So, I've been making the statement for a while now that DC publishes iconic characters for a while now, and I don't intend to stop. It's not because I believe that tehy are worshipable figures or that Batman is so popular that just the mere mention of his name will sell books and he will always be part of our lexicon. I say this because I stole the idea from someone else, sorry can't remember who it was, but I admit that this wasn't entirely my idea at first but it's become mine and I'm sticking with it (it's my Batman to the originator's Green Hornet/Zorro/etc. - it's not mine originally, but I'm running with it and giving a little nod to my originator).

I also say it because: Batman is representative of an idea. He is not a man who has had certain things happen to him and he goes on adventures because of it (more Spiderman then Batman), no he represents man's desire to enter the dark side of their sould to crush the demons (criminals) that linger there. It's the same thing represented by the icon that is the Shadow and many others. Superman is iconic of the stranger's desire to crush fear and anger and anything that stands in teh way of truth, justice and the American way.

They're Jungian icons (though he's not the only one to discuss this sort of icon so his fall from grace shouldn't tarnish this particular idea - it's not just Batman that's stolen). They are iconic, not in that they are a recognizable and major image of our culture, but in that they represent certain ideals and concepts.

The difference between these characters (predominantly DC's major heroes) and other comic's characters is that the majority of their stories are forever tainted by the fact that they represent a particular psychological concept - conquering fear by delving into a darker self, Ideal self vs. imperfect reality, etc. Now, there is some debate as to whether stories of these sort of icons hold up over the years, considering their point is fairly narrow and after a while the reader gets it and needs to move on, but this explains the years where these characters are not popular or writers are tasked with doing "more with Batman", etc. In the end we always end up back at the icon though. This is how certain characters are iconic.

Captain America is only the most obvious because he's draped in a flag. But the fox is not iconic of cleverness because he looks like a fox, he's iconic of these things because someone (probably Aesop) told a story that drew that comparison. So it is with Batman, superman, etc.

Ok, enough out of me.

[mattx110]

I'm sorry, but does anyone else find humor in someone with a user name that includes the word crucified" has responded to a thread called "don't leave us hanging"?

I do.

[Crucified Elvis]

I do to. I didn't think about that. Thanks for the laugh.

http://recollectionbooks.com/bleed/images/music/elvisCross.jpg

mmmm... sacrilicious

[Imaginos666]

I just assumed it was Superman. Steve might be the only person who hates Supes more than Lex Luthor :)

[Imaginos666]

And Steve made an interesting point: all fictional characters eventually become obsolete. The only real difference between characters like Paul Bunyon, Oliver Twist and Doc Savage is the absence of a corporate parent. Had there been a multi-million dollar business involved, we might still see see these characters represented somewhere in popular culture today (like Doc Savage cereal, for example.) Batman has faced cancellation a few times during the last 60 years ... the only reason he's still around today is because DC paid hundreds of writers and artists to keep him relevant. A few of them were successful.

With access to that kind of money and talent you can keep an icon alive forever. But you might have to stretch your definition of "alive" (insert distasteful Terri Schiavo joke here.)

[Steven Grant]

I do to. I didn't think about that. Thanks for the laugh.

http://recollectionbooks.com/bleed/images/music/elvisCross.jpg

mmmm... sacrilicious

Your real name's not Chad, is it?

- Grant

[Steven Grant]

I just assumed it was Superman. Steve might be the only person who hates Supes more than Lex Luthor :)

No, not Superman, though the name did come up in context.

I don't hate Superman, I just don't have any use for him.

- Grant

[dancj]

So, you wrote that whole first section of the column and didn't once mention which "icon" you were debating?

Come on, which character was it?

My guess: Sherlock Holmes
My guess was Wonder Woman

[badMike]

My guess was Wonder WomanShe's not popular anymore? I don't keep up much with what's allegedly "popular" in the superhero world anymore, so I'm wondering.

[Paul McEnery]

No, not Superman, though the name did come up in context.

I don't hate Superman, I just don't have any use for him.

- Grant

Now that would make for a good Superman story. He runs up against someone like you. Goes and beats the tar out of Luthor instead. Eventually realizes he's just trivially gotten in the way of someone's plans and needed to be removed.

Better yet if you wrote it so that Superman never even finds out who it was. And the Evil Albino is happy, because while Superman was off kicking Luthor's ass, they got on with whatever it was they needed to do.

[Steven Grant]

Now that would make for a good Superman story. He runs up against someone like you. Goes and beats the tar out of Luthor instead. Eventually realizes he's just trivially gotten in the way of someone's plans and needed to be removed.

Better yet if you wrote it so that Superman never even finds out who it was. And the Evil Albino is happy, because while Superman was off kicking Luthor's ass, they got on with whatever it was they needed to do.

Ummm... sure... I think I'll leave the autobiographical comics for my next Moon Knight run, thanks...

And I haven't checked lately, but last I heard I'd have to contract pinkeye to qualify as an albino...

By the way, I've written superhero comics where the heroes never come remotely close to figuring out who was behind the situation, or even suspecting there was anyone behind the situation. For some reason editors and readers alike both hate them. Makes the heroes look like yutzes or something like that... Oh well...

- Grant

[bartl]

She's not popular anymore? I don't keep up much with what's allegedly "popular" in the superhero world anymore, so I'm wondering.
Wonder Woman is a highly merchandiseable figure that is extremely difficult to use in a comic that would sell. Of course, if one went back to her roots, she would probably sell, but local groups would insist on its going onto the Adults Only shelves...

[mattx110]

Ummm... sure... I think I'll leave the autobiographical comics for my next Moon Knight run, thanks...

And I haven't checked lately, but last I heard I'd have to contract pinkeye to qualify as an albino...

By the way, I've written superhero comics where the heroes never come remotely close to figuring out who was behind the situation, or even suspecting there was anyone behind the situation. For some reason editors and readers alike both hate them. Makes the heroes look like yutzes or something like that... Oh well...

- Grant
As opposed to making billionaire scheming villians who've done everything from rob fort knox to control a planet look like they're not that bad after all and an idiot can run a worldwide crime syndicate without being assassinated/arrested 5 times a day.

[Lord Destiny]

The word "ICON" does fit some superheroes.

Not because that character-concept must remain on the stands at all times. There's another way to view them as "essential" or "sacred" (don't like that word, but I'll use it).

For example, when a character defines a concept. Is there any character that identifies with patriotism more than the Steve Rogers Captain America? Not that I can imagine. To me, Steve Rogers as Captain America IS "sacred." Anything else is a low-rent imitation.

Bruce Wayne Batman is the consumate superhero detective. Sure, there are others, but no other super-character is more strongly associated with that concept. Also, Batman is readily recognized as the ultimate "do it yourself" superhero. No powers, just some inherited money he used to maximize his incredible imagination and physical prowess. You, too, can be (a) Batman if you put your mind to it... In this sense, Batman is an icon.

In another sense, the Batman MUST be Bruce Wayne. No replacement is acceptible. Anything else is a cheap ripoff. If DC wants to hand the spot of super-detective to another character, it must be a new character. It cannot be a stranger in Bat-drag. Bruce Wayne is essential to the concept. Putting someone else in that costume will weaken the concept. In that sense, Batman (the Bruce Wayne Batman) is an icon.

At this point I should say that icons cannot be separated from the genre (or society) in which they exist. Jesus is an icon to Christians, but of no importance for Buddhists.

One character I say is "iconic" is...

AQUAMAN -- If you say "Aquaman" even to a non-comics reader, they'll know you mean a man who is heroic in water. It's in the name. And for comics readers, Arthur Curry is the definitive Aquaman. Despite a revised origin and the addition of Atlantis in the early 60s, the whole run from 1941 till One Year Later is the saga of his life. The Golden Age "version" and the revised Silver Age "version" don't read like separate characters. The revision doesn't really read like a revision, either. The GA stories had virtually zero emphasis on his personality, home life, or past. Just one 5 or 6 page adventure after another. So when he was given a modified origin and a link to Atlantis, it seemed more like a new direction than a revision. Arthur Curry IS Aquaman...Atlantis or not, hook or not, throne or not.

So the way I see it, being an "icon" is that the person inside the costume and under the logo is so identifiable with the concept that he/she cannot be separated from it.

[Steven Grant]

As opposed to making billionaire scheming villians who've done everything from rob fort knox to control a planet look like they're not that bad after all and an idiot can run a worldwide crime syndicate without being assassinated/arrested 5 times a day.

???

Any specifics?

- Grant

[Crucified Elvis]

Your real name's not Chad, is it?

- Grant

Nope. It's not Homer either...


(It's Joel, but I've used the nickname Elvis for a long time and my best friend goes by Jesus...hence, long story short, the nickname)

Side Note: I don't think Steve Rogers as Captain America is sacred, and three points to try and back that up:

1) Originally the fact that he was Steve Rogers was unimportant as I understand it. No Rogers development outside being Cap

2) Steve Rogers is/was but a man; Captain America is a strong symbol in the Marvel 'verse (created by the use of secret identities and presenting Cap as something beyond a man in a suit)

3) Unlike the rest of the iconic heroes I spoke of before, Cap is the Icon not Steve Rogers. Batman's struggle is Wayne's, Superman's issues are Kent's, but Cap stands for American good, etc. Steve is just another man struggling with that symbol (closer then most, but no different...the point, in my mind).

[Paradox]

mattx110 catches me:

I'm sorry, but does anyone else find humor in someone with a user name that includes the word crucified" has responded to a thread called "don't leave us hanging"?

I do.

It's what made me click on the thread when I saw it on the front page. :redface:

[mattx110]

???

Any specifics?

- Grant
Well, it's a flawed theory. Sending luthor or the joker to jail just gives them time to plan a new horrible thing when they escape, and they rarely seem to mind (although it gives them yet another reason to pledge revenge). It's just a fear for what happens when the bad guy has to be found out and the good guy has to win. Which eventually should happen in most cases, as this is a never-ending serial format for DC comics for the most part.

It's just for companies that seem to refuse to make more than a handfull of comics for children, it's hard to know if the old rules still apply. Although, Doctor Doom hasn't always done the brightest things.