View Full Version : Avengers: The Inititative #11 *Preview*
Will.S
04-13-2008, 12:27 PM
Good old CBR has the preview up on the website:
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=preview&id=95&disp=table
War Machine receives quite possibly the coolest moment since his comeback (if it is him) although it looks like KIA just runs right through him.
Monty_Cristo
04-13-2008, 12:31 PM
well it steers some of the skrull suspicion away from War Machine. he still could be a Stark-controlled robot, though.
Will.S
04-13-2008, 12:40 PM
well it steers some of the skrull suspicion away from War Machine. he still could be a Stark-controlled robot, though.
Yeah, for some reason I don't think there's actually anyone inside the suit. Ever since Dan Slott mentioned that we haven't seen War Machine take off the helmet, it makes sense that it's probably not even Rhodey.
Especially since the last time we saw Rhodey unarmored was in The Crew I believe.
Monty_Cristo
04-13-2008, 12:57 PM
Yeah, for some reason I don't think there's actually anyone inside the suit. Ever since Dan Slott mentioned that we haven't seen War Machine take off the helmet, it makes sense that it's probably not even Rhodey.
Especially since the last time we saw Rhodey unarmored was in The Crew I believe.
actually he led the Sentinel Squad for a good while after the Crew series. before the Initiative title debuted, he appeared in a giant War Machine armor in Black Panther. he didn't even have possession of the armor in the Crew series.
Will.S
04-13-2008, 01:02 PM
actually he led the Sentinel Squad for a good while after the Crew series. before the Initiative title debuted, he appeared in a giant War Machine armor in Black Panther.
Shiet, forgot about Sentinel Squad One, don't read Black Panther though,
he didn't even have possession of the armor in the Crew series.
Didn't say he did.
mikekerr3
04-13-2008, 03:42 PM
They planted a tracking devide im michael, Oh thos initiative gus are such "good" guts.
The want to murder the cloned Michael to save their rears. I don't se any diffence between what they want to do and murder of an incocent, they want to destroy every thing he is but the body. Thats murder
Mark_S
04-13-2008, 06:31 PM
Oh yea, Camp Hammond is really turning out better than letting the kids train with the Avengers or something. At least we know that once the Red Skull is done in Captain America he can apply for a job, it looks like there'll be some openings on the teaching and administrative staff.
Mark_S
In general, I've gotten a shady vibe out of War Machine since Initiaitve started.
Frankly, I'm wondering if the real Rodney didn't pop up at the very end of Secret Invasion.
mikekerr3
04-13-2008, 07:25 PM
Oh yea, Camp Hammond is really turning out better than letting the kids train with the Avengers or something. At least we know that once the Red Skull is done in Captain America he can apply for a job, it looks like there'll be some openings on the teaching and administrative staff.
Mark_S
He's not slimey enough for management
Psyco panda
04-13-2008, 08:43 PM
He's not slimey enough for management
Oh I'm sure Von Blitzlach can pull some strings.
mikekerr3
04-13-2008, 09:00 PM
If there is a guy in that suit He had a cannon where his liver should be, Rhode would have to be an anorexic dwarf to fit in between the weapons
DeadXMan
04-13-2008, 10:01 PM
you don't know the mechanics of mecha in comic books then.
If there is a guy in that suit He had a cannon where his liver should be, Rhode would have to be an anorexic dwarf to fit in between the weapons
An anorexic dwarf... or a skrull.
Monty_Cristo
04-14-2008, 12:42 PM
They planted a tracking devide im michael, Oh thos initiative gus are such "good" guts.
The want to murder the cloned Michael to save their rears. I don't se any diffence between what they want to do and murder of an incocent, they want to destroy every thing he is but the body. Thats murder
that's crap and you know it. you're fond of labeling Gyrich and Stark as the evilest of the evil but you're dealing with Cloud-9, Komodo, and Hardball now. so tell us just how evil Cloud-9 is; how she's salivating to destroy everything "Michael Van Patrick" is. oh and 10 bucks says that, this week's issue, the clone voluntarily places the helmet on his own head. why? because the real Michael Van Patrick was a noble/self-sacrificing individual. he would make the heroic choice; knowing that he could save the lives of the many in exchange for some memories.
Mark_S
04-14-2008, 01:06 PM
They planted a tracking devide im michael, Oh thos initiative gus are such "good" guts.
The want to murder the cloned Michael to save their rears. I don't se any diffence between what they want to do and murder of an incocent, they want to destroy every thing he is but the body. Thats murder
The way I see it Cloud 9 and the others are going purely on self preservation, with very little guidence from the 'adults'. C9 doesn't think that it will kill the original, or that it might but she is weighing that against the ones already killed. She's going on pure panic.
And this is the grand plan of Stark, Pym and Richards. Poor kids, they would have been better off joining Magneto's brotherhood or Doom's Latverian guard.
Mark_S
Monty_Cristo
04-14-2008, 01:09 PM
The way I see it Cloud 9 and the others are going purely on self preservation, with very little guidence from the 'adults'. C9 doesn't think that it will kill the original, or that it might but she is weighing that against the ones already killed. She's going on pure panic.
And this is the grand plan of Stark, Pym and Richards. Poor kids, they would have been better off joining Magneto's brotherhood or Doom's Latverian guard, at least then there wouldn't be a pretense of doing things for the right reason.
Mark_S
these experiencing are making them adult heroes. these are things they would encounter in real life. Stark, Pym, and Richards have all had to make difficult choices. they've all been driven to the brink.
Mark_S
04-14-2008, 01:13 PM
these experiencing are making them adult heroes. these are things they would encounter in real life. Stark, Pym, and Richards have all had to make difficult choices. they've all been driven to the brink.
But in this case the ones who have forced them to make the decisions are Stark, Pym and Richards, along with the rest of the happy go lucky comand crew at CH. The kids are learning just how dumb the people in charge actually are. That's a great lesson to learn.
Mark_S
Tobias Drake
04-14-2008, 01:16 PM
But in this case the ones who have forced them to make the decisions are Stark, Pym and Richards, along with the rest of the happy go lucky comand crew at CH. The kids are learning just how dumb the people in charge actually are. That's a great lesson to learn.
Mark_S
They're learning that being a superhero isn't a game with a safety net where if you screw up, everything's going to be okay. Admittedly, tThis isn't the best way for them to learn it, but it certainly has nothing to do with what Pym, Stark, and Richards wanted for them (well, possibly Pym, given what we now know). They didn't program KIA to start killing everyone. They didn't deliberately send him out as a training lesson. This is a complete and utter accident, but that, in and of itself, is a valuable lesson: that s*** happens that you never expected, were never ready for, never prepared for, and now you have to deal with it.
They're learning that being a superhero isn't a game with a safety net where if you screw up, everything's going to be okay. Admittedly, tThis isn't the best way for them to learn it, but it certainly has nothing to do with what Pym, Stark, and Richards wanted for them (well, possibly Pym, given what we now know). They didn't program KIA to start killing everyone. They didn't deliberately send him out as a training lesson. This is a complete and utter accident, but that, in and of itself, is a valuable lesson: that s*** happens that you never expected, were never ready for, never prepared for, and now you have to deal with it.
They didn't program KIA to start killing everyone... but they did hire an evil nazi scientist to make the thing. It's not programing the clone to be an evil killer, but it's the next best thing.
Mark_S
04-14-2008, 01:34 PM
They're learning that being a superhero isn't a game with a safety net where if you screw up, everything's going to be okay. Admittedly, tThis isn't the best way for them to learn it, but it certainly has nothing to do with what Pym, Stark, and Richards wanted for them (well, possibly Pym, given what we now know). They didn't program KIA to start killing everyone. They didn't deliberately send him out as a training lesson. This is a complete and utter accident, but that, in and of itself, is a valuable lesson: that s*** happens that you never expected, were never ready for, never prepared for, and now you have to deal with it.
Did these kids want to be superheroes? As I recall it was a choice to be one or not, but you had to go to CH anyway or face imprisonment or depowerment. And shouldn't the government be held to a higher standard when it sets itself up as teacher? And where are the other organized heroes in all of this? Wasn't part of having a 50 state team system was so that you could have a team respond to this sort of situation?
Mark_S
Magneto Rocks
04-14-2008, 01:35 PM
They didn't program KIA to start killing everyone... but they did hire an evil nazi scientist to make the thing. It's not programing the clone to be an evil killer, but it's the next best thing.
Blame Pym- after all, the other 2 had no say in it, Pym's probably a Skrull anyway, and even if he wasn't.... well, it's Pym. We blame him anyway.
I mean, even without the Nazi he has a pretty bad track record when it comes to creating evil killers.
Mark_S
04-14-2008, 01:41 PM
Blame Pym- after all, the other 2 had no say in it, Pym's probably a Skrull anyway, and even if he wasn't.... well, it's Pym. We blame him anyway.
I mean, even without the Nazi he has a pretty bad track record when it comes to creating evil killers.
And yet he was the one who was put in charge of a lot of it. The whole point of Camp Hammond if you accept the pro-sra argument was that you needed a place to train kids to handle their superpowers responsibly, a sort of Xavier institute without the masks and paranoia. It seems that in this series marvel has gone out of its way to show us how truly bad an idea that was. After this why would anyone in their right mind go to this place voluntarily, and especially why would any parent hand thier kids over to this group?
Mark_S
Blame Pym- after all, the other 2 had no say in it, Pym's probably a Skrull anyway, and even if he wasn't.... well, it's Pym. We blame him anyway.
I mean, even without the Nazi he has a pretty bad track record when it comes to creating evil killers.
Sure, it's easy enough to blame Pym. Still, I'm not thrilled with the pattern I'm seeing there.
Stark puts Captain Marvel in charge of 42 (god only knows why), and that flops. Stark creates an odd mismatched one dimensional small team of Defenders (after bragging about how experienced he is at making teams), which underperforms and is quickly disassembled. And how the heck did he create his first hand picked TBolt team? By picking names out of a hat?
Now we see the fruits of placing Pym in power.
I'm starting to see why Stark micro-manages everything... he sucks at delegating responsibility.
Monty_Cristo
04-14-2008, 01:58 PM
But in this case the ones who have forced them to make the decisions are Stark, Pym and Richards, along with the rest of the happy go lucky comand crew at CH. The kids are learning just how dumb the people in charge actually are. That's a great lesson to learn.
Mark_S
Stark doesn't run the camp. neither does Reed Richards. Pym is believed to be deceased.
Did these kids want to be superheroes? As I recall it was a choice to be one or not, but you had to go to CH anyway or face imprisonment or depowerment. And shouldn't the government be held to a higher standard when it sets itself up as teacher? And where are the other organized heroes in all of this? Wasn't part of having a 50 state team system was so that you could have a team respond to this sort of situation?
Mark_S
heroes like Triathlon and Stingray are also fighting K.I.A. it's what heroes do. and, yeah, some of these kids did want to be heroes. plus, if Hardball wasn't at the camp, he'd still be robbing armored cars.
Monty_Cristo
04-14-2008, 02:03 PM
Sure, it's easy enough to blame Pym. Still, I'm not thrilled with the pattern I'm seeing there.
Stark puts Captain Marvel in charge of 42 (god only knows why), and that flops. Stark creates an odd mismatched one dimensional small team of Defenders (after bragging about how experienced he is at making teams), which underperforms and is quickly disassembled. And how the heck did he create his first hand picked TBolt team? By picking names out of a hat?
Now we see the fruits of placing Pym in power.
I'm starting to see why Stark micro-manages everything... he sucks at delegating responsibility.
you're really not factoring in the skrulls are you?
And yet he was the one who was put in charge of a lot of it. The whole point of Camp Hammond if you accept the pro-sra argument was that you needed a place to train kids to handle their superpowers responsibly, a sort of Xavier institute without the masks and paranoia. It seems that in this series marvel has gone out of its way to show us how truly bad an idea that was. After this why would anyone in their right mind go to this place voluntarily, and especially why would any parent hand thier kids over to this group?
Mark_S
the Xavier Institute's had it's own f-ups. at least the Initiative's training room isn't some mindjacked sentient being.
Mark_S
04-14-2008, 02:11 PM
if Hardball wasn't at the camp, he'd still be robbing armored cars.
Which is probably safer than putting your fate into the hands of Gyrich and the rest.
But what about the next group that goes to the camp, what does the government tell the parents "Don't worry, this time we've really got it figured out."
If it were your kid would you trust these people near him/her?
Mark_S
Mark_S
04-14-2008, 02:13 PM
the Xavier Institute's had it's own f-ups. at least the Initiative's training room isn't some mindjacked sentient being.
But in both cases the basic philosophy of the training is the same: Learn to fight, nothing else matters. I have yet to see any other type of training at either spot. Is that all a person with power is good for in the mu? Fighting? That's a sad life.
Mark_S
bluedmighty
04-14-2008, 02:16 PM
They didn't program KIA to start killing everyone... but they did hire an evil nazi scientist to make the thing. It's not programing the clone to be an evil killer, but it's the next best thing.
hahahaahahahahahahaha :biggrin:
Monty_Cristo
04-14-2008, 02:24 PM
Which is probably safer than putting your fate into the hands of Gyrich and the rest.
But what about the next group that goes to the camp, what does the government tell the parents "Don't worry, this time we've really got it figured out."
If it were your kid would you trust these people near him/her?
Mark_S
i'd be working at the camp.
TotalWorldDomination
04-14-2008, 02:35 PM
They didn't program KIA to start killing everyone... but they did hire an evil nazi scientist to make the thing. It's not programing the clone to be an evil killer, but it's the next best thing.
By that logic then every space launch in American history that has malfunctioned has been a failure, not because of mechanical or human error, but because Werner Von Braun (Ex-Nazi Scientist) developed the technology and built America's first space-flight rockets for NASA.
i'd be working at the camp.
I hear they've got great medical benefits... but relatively bad dental. Still, if you join you get free gamma-powered psychiatric evaluations since Doc Samson seems to be the only psychiatrist in the Initiative (and the MU in general).
mikekerr3
04-14-2008, 02:49 PM
They're learning that being a superhero isn't a game with a safety net where if you screw up, everything's going to be okay. Admittedly, tThis isn't the best way for them to learn it, but it certainly has nothing to do with what Pym, Stark, and Richards wanted for them (well, possibly Pym, given what we now know). They didn't program KIA to start killing everyone. They didn't deliberately send him out as a training lesson. This is a complete and utter accident, but that, in and of itself, is a valuable lesson: that s*** happens that you never expected, were never ready for, never prepared for, and now you have to deal with it.
mostly I agre with you , with the exception of the fact that they didn't have someone keeping a eye on gyriich to keep him from acting his normal sociopathic self. They know that guy and had to realise he was a disaster waiting to happen.
People who allow kids to be put under the control of people who are amoral, at best, deserve some of the blame for what happens to the kids. Theyturned the kids over and seemingly forgot about them. A disaster at Hammond was assured with Gyrich in charge,
mikekerr3
04-14-2008, 02:54 PM
Stark doesn't run the camp. neither does Reed Richards. Pym is believed to be deceased.
They could at least try to watch what was going on
[QUOTE=Monty_Cristo;6690428]
heroes like Triathlon and Stingray are also fighting K.I.A. it's what heroes do. and, yeah, some of these kids did want to be heroes. plus, if Hardball wasn't at the camp, he'd still be robbing armored cars.
Instead he's on a team trying to kill MVP how is that an improvement? Cloud 9 is now seeming only barely sanem if not for thr SHRa she would be in High School flying around in her spare time,
you're really not factoring in the skrulls are you?
In some instances sure. I think it's possible that Stark placed Captain Marvel (a potential skrull) in charge of 42 for no reason whatsoever.
And putting Pym in power obviousy speaks for itself (though I'm not sure him being a skrull would have made a difference either way).
By that logic then every space launch in American history that has malfunctioned has been a failure, not because of mechanical or human error, but because Werner Von Braun (Ex-Nazi Scientist) developed the technology and built America's first space-flight rockets for NASA.
Hiring scientists back during WW2 made sense... they were the best scientists in the world.
Hiring nazi scientists now (especially evil ones) is just stupid, as there are plenty of intelligent scientists in the world that aren't evil or nazi's.
But if you think hiring evil nazi scientist is a smart move that will reap positive rewards, we can agree to disagree. I think MOST of us saw this one coming a mile away.
Tobias Drake
04-14-2008, 03:35 PM
Double post
Tobias Drake
04-14-2008, 03:36 PM
Did these kids want to be superheroes? As I recall it was a choice to be one or not, but you had to go to CH anyway or face imprisonment or depowerment. And shouldn't the government be held to a higher standard when it sets itself up as teacher? And where are the other organized heroes in all of this? Wasn't part of having a 50 state team system was so that you could have a team respond to this sort of situation?
Mark_S
They're not there just to learn to use their powers. They're there specifically to learn to be Avengers and become a part of the Fifty State Initiative. If this was just a place to learn to fly or learn to control energy manipulation, I can see that argument, but it's not; it is, specifically, BCT for the Fifty State Initiative.
the Xavier Institute's had it's own f-ups. at least the Initiative's training room isn't some mindjacked sentient being.
The deathtoll among students is significantly lower, too.
People who allow kids to be put under the control of people who are amoral, at best, deserve some of the blame for what happens to the kids. Theyturned the kids over and seemingly forgot about them. A disaster at Hammond was assured with Gyrich in charge,
In Gyrich's defense, this disaster has very little to actually do with him, and everything to do with a psychotic clone going crazy. Which is more Pym's and Blitzschlag's fault than Gyrich's. Though I should note that clones going berserk is becoming a pattern with Pym.
Magneto Rocks
04-14-2008, 03:39 PM
In some instances sure. I think it's possible that Stark placed Captain Marvel (a potential skrull) in charge of 42 for no reason whatsoever.
While I agree it was random, it's notable that we only actually saw 42 start to fall apart AFTER Cap left. For no clear reason that I can discern, 42 seemed to be run pretty tightly under Capt Marvel for the most part.
Tobias Drake
04-14-2008, 03:42 PM
In some instances sure. I think it's possible that Stark placed Captain Marvel (a potential skrull) in charge of 42 for no reason whatsoever.
And putting Pym in power obviousy speaks for itself (though I'm not sure him being a skrull would have made a difference either way).
Given that the Fifty State Initiative was Pym's idea in the first place, I don't see how he wouldn't be in charge of it.
In Gyrich's defense, this disaster has very little to actually do with him, and everything to do with a psychotic clone going crazy. Which is more Pym's and Blitzschlag's fault than Gyrich's. Though I should note that clones going berserk is becoming a pattern with Pym.
One can argue that there wouldn't be any psychotic clones had they not bothered creating clones to cover up MVPs death in the first place. And the fault of that lies on Gyrich's lap.
Tobias Drake
04-14-2008, 03:45 PM
One can argue that there wouldn't be any psychotic clones had they not bothered creating clones to cover up MVPs death in the first place. And the fault of that lies on Gyrich's lap.
I was pretty sure they were creating clones for more reasons than covering up MVP's death. If that was all they were trying to do, neither the Scarlet Spiders nor KIA would exist.
So one can argue back that had they just created the replacement clone and left it at that, everything would be fine. It was only Pym and Blitzschlag attempting to weaponize the MVP clones that shot everything to hell.
And even THEN, Blitzschlag is the only one coming up with any ideas how to stop KIA, and that's post-mortem. So I'm liable to cut him some slack if he pulls off the victory.
Given that the Fifty State Initiative was Pym's idea in the first place, I don't see how he wouldn't be in charge of it.
You don't see why Hank Pym shouldn't be in charge of it? Are you serious?
I can think of half a dozen reasons why Hank Pym shouldn't be in charge of plannng a picnic, let alone an important government facility regardless of whether he thought of it or not.
Magneto Rocks
04-14-2008, 03:50 PM
You don't see why Hank Pym shouldn't be in charge of it? Are you serious?
I can think of half a dozen reasons why Hank Pym shouldn't be in charge of plannng a picnic, let alone an important government facility regardless of whether he thought of it or not.
To some extent, it depends on Pym#s latest personality/whoever's currently writing him.
I'd trust Busiek's Pym with my life, I wouldn't trust Slott's or Bendis's with a picnic basket.
I was pretty sure they were creating clones for more reasons than covering up MVP's death. If that was all they were trying to do, neither the Scarlet Spiders nor KIA would exist.
So one can argue back that had they just created the replacement clone and left it at that, everything would be fine. It was only Pym and Blitzschlag attempting to weaponize the MVP clones that shot everything to hell.
And even THEN, Blitzschlag is the only one coming up with any ideas how to stop KIA, and that's post-mortem. So I'm liable to cut him some slack if he pulls off the victory.
Gyrich is in charge of the base.. so presumably if they're making clones they're doing it under his orders. He's in charge... if anything goes wrong, the fault is his. Either Stark or Gyrich or a combination of the two decided it was a good idea to put Pym and an evil Nazi scientist in a room together to make clones. That pretty much speaks for itself in my mind.
Mark_S
04-14-2008, 04:16 PM
They're not there just to learn to use their powers. They're there specifically to learn to be Avengers and become a part of the Fifty State Initiative. If this was just a place to learn to fly or learn to control energy manipulation, I can see that argument, but it's not; it is, specifically, BCT for the Fifty State Initiative.
But I thought that there was a choice on whether or not they became superheroes?
At this point though if they go back after everything that's just happened I don't think that they are too bright. I'd run and hide if the only choice I had was to go back to Camp Hammond. After all you just know that either the entire thing will happen again or there will be another disastor in the works. Poor kids, they really don't have much of a chance in the current mu.
Mark_S
mikekerr3
04-14-2008, 04:23 PM
Hiring scientists back during WW2 made sense... they were the best scientists in the world.
Hiring nazi scientists now (especially evil ones) is just stupid, as there are plenty of intelligent scientists in the world that aren't evil or nazi's.
But if you think hiring evil nazi scientist is a smart move that will reap positive rewards, we can agree to disagree. I think MOST of us saw this one coming a mile away.
Von Braun's actions during the war, should have lead to a noose. I can think of nothing that he did afterward that would justify not bringing him to trial; He helped but was not absolutely necessary.
Somethings are never justified regardless of the practicallities.
Mark_S
04-14-2008, 05:04 PM
Von Braun's actions during the war, should have lead to a noose. I can think of nothing that he did afterward that would justify not bringing him to trial; He helped but was not absolutely necessary.
Somethings are never justified regardless of the practicallities.
If you look at them from a moral view, and the only moral I've seen in the mu since cw has been: I'm stronger, I make the rules I want and I break the rules I want and as long as nobody more powerful finds out I'm completely justified in that, and that moral is followed by just about everyone in power.
Mark_S
While I agree it was random, it's notable that we only actually saw 42 start to fall apart AFTER Cap left. For no clear reason that I can discern, 42 seemed to be run pretty tightly under Capt Marvel for the most part.
During Civil War, we got 2 visions of 42. We've got Frontline, which was basically a mismanaged dump (not unlike what he apparently have now). And we've got Amazing Spider-Man, where we're flat out told the prisoners have no rights... but at least the place is clean. Which one of these versions should be considered bible is up to interpetation I suppose... though either version doesn't sound terribly charitable.
Either way, Marvel overall didn't wow me... nor should we have expected him to.
Monty_Cristo
04-14-2008, 05:55 PM
To some extent, it depends on Pym#s latest personality/whoever's currently writing him.
I'd trust Busiek's Pym with my life,
the one who thought it was a good idea to put the costume he beat his wife in back on? "oh it's alright, an alien cured me of my wife-beaterism." yeah, like Jan wasn't supposed to find that disturbing.
Tobias Drake
04-14-2008, 06:30 PM
You don't see why Hank Pym shouldn't be in charge of it? Are you serious?
I don't see how, when the three of them were making plans, you expect Stark to have said, "Hey, Hank, that is a really good idea. But I don't like you. Reed, you want to run this?" The Initiative is his brainchild. It's only natural that he's going to be the one seeing it through.
But I thought that there was a choice on whether or not they became superheroes?
At this point though if they go back after everything that's just happened I don't think that they are too bright. I'd run and hide if the only choice I had was to go back to Camp Hammond. After all you just know that either the entire thing will happen again or there will be another disastor in the works. Poor kids, they really don't have much of a chance in the current mu.
Mark_S
There is a choice. That choice was made before they came to Camp Hammond. Not every teenage meta in the world went to Camp Hammond; only the ones trying out to be in the Initiative. They make it vocally clear several times in issue 1 alone that they're shaping them up to be Avengers, to fight like Avengers, to handle Avengers-level threats, and that's because these kids are being trained specifically for the Initiative.
Like I said before, this isn't just a summer camp where they learn to use their powers. This is BCT for the Fifty State Initiative. This isn't the X-Manor; they're here specifically to learn to be Avengers, because they signed up for the Fifty State Initiative.
Mark_S
04-14-2008, 06:37 PM
I don't see how, when the three of them were making plans, you expect Stark to have said, "Hey, Hank, that is a really good idea. But I don't like you. Reed, you want to run this?" The Initiative is his brainchild. It's only natural that he's going to be the one seeing it through.
There is a choice. That choice was made before they came to Camp Hammond. Not every teenage meta in the world went to Camp Hammond; only the ones trying out to be in the Initiative. They make it vocally clear several times in issue 1 alone that they're shaping them up to be Avengers, to fight like Avengers, to handle Avengers-level threats, and that's because these kids are being trained specifically for the Initiative.
Like I said before, this isn't just a summer camp where they learn to use their powers. This is BCT for the Fifty State Initiative. This isn't the X-Manor; they're here specifically to learn to be Avengers, because they signed up for the Fifty State Initiative.
So what would have happened if they hadn't signed up for the 50 state thing and didn't want to be Avengers? Would they have been allowed just to register and live their lives as they wanted too?
And as an extra question wouldn't it be a good idea if they actually finished training before they got thrown to the wolves facing a killer clone? Or is this a case of weeding out the weak like they used to do with Spartan kids?
Mark_S
I don't see how, when the three of them were making plans, you expect Stark to have said, "Hey, Hank, that is a really good idea. But I don't like you. Reed, you want to run this?" The Initiative is his brainchild. It's only natural that he's going to be the one seeing it through.
.
You don't see how? It's simple... say exactly what you said (minus the part about not likeing Hank since I'm assuming he does). This isn't about giving important positions to your buddies... it's about giving it to the best possible person for the job.
The fact that Hank is outright hiding some of his actions from Stark and SHIELD demonstrates exactly why he shouldn't have been given the positon.
The guy post CW was clearly a pill popping mess (not that Hank was always the picture of mental health prior to that). And it's not like pairing him up with an evil nazi scientists to make clones (especially after Clor) was going to help matters.
Tobias Drake
04-14-2008, 06:43 PM
So what would have happened if they hadn't signed up for the 50 state thing and didn't want to be Avengers? Would they have been allowed just to register and live their lives as they wanted too?
Ask the Loners. Not one of them have been to Camp Hammond.
And as an extra question wouldn't it be a good idea if they actually finished training before they got thrown to the wolves facing a killer clone? Or is this a case of weeding out the weak like they used to do with Spartan kids?
Mark_S
It's an accident. You act as though Pym and Blitzschlag got together and planned for this to happen. This thing going berserk was a complete and total fluke that the management of Camp Hammond did not desire in any way. The students weren't supposed to be facing something like this yet, but in its own way, it is sort of good that they do have to, because they're learning that life doesn't happen on a schedule.
Mark_S
04-14-2008, 06:45 PM
Ask the Loners. Not one of them have been to Camp Hammond.
It's an accident. You act as though Pym and Blitzschlag got together and planned for this to happen. This thing going berserk was a complete and total fluke that the management of Camp Hammond did not desire in any way. The students weren't supposed to be facing something like this yet, but in its own way, it is sort of good that they do have to, because they're learning that life doesn't happen on a schedule.
And if they die? How is that a learning experience?
Mark_S
Tobias Drake
04-14-2008, 06:53 PM
And if they die? How is that a learning experience?
Mark_S
Like I said, it wasn't supposed to happen. But there is a silver lining. That doesn't make the cloud any darker; just means that it's there.
Mark_S
04-14-2008, 07:00 PM
Like I said, it wasn't supposed to happen. But there is a silver lining. That doesn't make the cloud any darker; just means that it's there.
A silver lining? How so? That they learn that the people who are in charge are incompetant and/or evil?
Mark_S
mikekerr3
04-14-2008, 07:07 PM
They're not there just to learn to use their powers. They're there specifically to learn to be Avengers and become a part of the Fifty State Initiative. If this was just a place to learn to fly or learn to control energy manipulation, I can see that argument, but it's not; it is, specifically, BCT for the Fifty State Initiative.
The deathtoll among students is significantly lower, too.
In Gyrich's defense, this disaster has very little to actually do with him, and everything to do with a psychotic clone going crazy. Which is more Pym's and Blitzschlag's fault than Gyrich's. Though I should note that clones going berserk is becoming a pattern with Pym.
Arming a two weeks old clone (at most) is Gyriches responsibility. Having cloned MVP is Gyriche's Resposiblity, Having a training program so shoddy that students are killing each other within the first few weeks is his rersponssiblity. BvB having a position of authority is his responsiblity. I don't think the clones response in unpredictable, He was killed by incompetence and clones, his name stolen. Craziness seems a very human response to me.
mikekerr3
04-14-2008, 10:12 PM
I was pretty sure they were creating clones for more reasons than covering up MVP's death. If that was all they were trying to do, neither the Scarlet Spiders nor KIA would exist.
So one can argue back that had they just created the replacement clone and left it at that, everything would be fine. It was only Pym and Blitzschlag attempting to weaponize the MVP clones that shot everything to hell.
And even THEN, Blitzschlag is the only one coming up with any ideas how to stop KIA, and that's post-mortem. So I'm liable to cut him some slack if he pulls off the victory.
No clones , no KIA, no need for stoping the justifiably crazy clone, Don't make re[placement clone. Treat MIAs death as a training accident and have 3rd party investigate let the dice fall wear they may.
If they had acted like a legitimate agency instead of a third rate version of AIM there would be no problem and less kids would be dead.
The best that BvB can do is stop any more fron dieing due to His, Pyms and Gyriches F*** -ups. It will just lessen the damages of defeat. There is no posiblity of winning anything unless you count the killing of a teen driven mad as a victory.
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