Iron Man #28 *Preview*

[MichaelChen]

http://www.comicbookresources.com:8080/?page=preview&id=83&disp=table

Looks cool! :biggrin:

[rogerio]

awesome!
I really hope Roberto de la Torre stays onboard after SI`s tie in issues...:smile:

[IronStarks]

this issue looks to be keeping the tradition of awsome storytelling

[bulbasteve]

Damn, what a speech.

[MichaelChen]

In that last pic, is that guy supposed to have been turned to stone?

[jackolover]

In that last pic, is that guy supposed to have been turned to stone?

Yeah, he's stone alright.

Nice to see Stark getting to confront the very system he upheld, but I'm damned if he should get away with citing Cap as the counter balance to law and order.

I like that Tony is fronting the commitee that will decide his fate, and from the looks of boredom on the faces of the members, it looks like they ain't buyin' any of it. It's so nice to see Stark use Cap as a throw away line like that. Steve, his best friend at the funeral, and the crocodile tears, just make me wish Bucky pulled the trigger when he had the chance.

[mikekerr3]

By the way that Shot they were fussing over in the book is an instant Snap shot of a Sniper or even a decent marksman, The shot would have happened when the target appeared, None of that fussing that gave the Mandarin time to respond.

[MichaelChen]

Eh, in fairness this wasn't a normal target. This was five mice trying to ambush a dragon. That's a strong motivation to aim that shot very, very carefully. And they believed that they were hidden.

Really, them rushing that shot would have been the strange thing, given the circumstances: them seeming to have the stealth advantage, and facing an enemy who could rip their arms off and beat them to death with it.

[Magneto Rocks]

.

I like that Tony is fronting the commitee that will decide his fate, and from the looks of boredom on the faces of the members, it looks like they ain't buyin' any of it. It's so nice to see Stark use Cap as a throw away line like that. Steve, his best friend at the funeral, and the crocodile tears, just make me wish Bucky pulled the trigger when he had the chance.

Well I can't even begin to get into how you're wrong.

Tony isn't fronting the commitee that will decide his fate, he's CONfronting it. They don't look bored, merely sneering, and that's most likely because half of these guys are corrupt idiots who hate Tony because of what he represents- fairness in the system. And- a THROWAWAY line? It was the CENTREPIECE to Tony's argument there. He's not saying Cap's evil or wrong, he's saying Cap believed the very worst of the government- and it's up to them to prove him wrong. He's defying them to prove that government doesn't have to be corrupt or stupid or foolish. And if you think that's "throwaway", and if you think Cap wouldn't have wanted that, then I have no idea what you're reading.

And again, "crocodile tears". I've read four major sources on Tony's feelings on Cap's death. Every single one said it blew his world out from under him. Tony has expressed more emotion, more genuine feeling on Cap's death than any other character in comicdom except the core cast of "Captain America", so I don'tt hink there's even a VAGUE justification for calling them crocodile tears.

Oh, and that said- this reminds me whu I'm pro-registration. Tony's little speech there is my favourite Iron Man moment in quite a while... :)

[jackolover]

Well I can't even begin to get into how you're wrong.

Tony isn't fronting the commitee that will decide his fate, he's CONfronting it. They don't look bored, merely sneering, and that's most likely because half of these guys are corrupt idiots who hate Tony because of what he represents- fairness in the system. And- a THROWAWAY line? It was the CENTREPIECE to Tony's argument there. He's not saying Cap's evil or wrong, he's saying Cap believed the very worst of the government- and it's up to them to prove him wrong. He's defying them to prove that government doesn't have to be corrupt or stupid or foolish. And if you think that's "throwaway", and if you think Cap wouldn't have wanted that, then I have no idea what you're reading.

And again, "crocodile tears". I've read four major sources on Tony's feelings on Cap's death. Every single one said it blew his world out from under him. Tony has expressed more emotion, more genuine feeling on Cap's death than any other character in comicdom except the core cast of "Captain America", so I don'tt hink there's even a VAGUE justification for calling them crocodile tears.

Oh, and that said- this reminds me why I'm pro-registration. Tony's little speech there is my favourite Iron Man moment in quite a while... :)

Yes, it wasn't a bad speech for the occasion. I'm just a bit peeved that Tony used Cap to bounce off the opposing view, and that was how I saw it. But I can see your interpretation as well. It just hurt that Tony would make that reference in such a calous way. And that's probably why I want to pick up this book - in the hope that I can get a more clarified view of what Tony is getting at.

I'm sure Tony has these sorrowful feelings about the war with Cap, but I would have thought he would have more respect than to bring up Cap in an argument, considering how sensitive the whole war was to many people. But just the fact that Tony makes this mention is worth the cover price. Isn't it funny how different people read the same thing, yet hear a completely different message.

I also wonder where this book sits in Secret Invasion. This is probably one of those books that just finishes it's story after SI gets going, so it still must be before SI.

[Mark_S]

Well I can't even begin to get into how you're wrong.

Tony isn't fronting the commitee that will decide his fate, he's CONfronting it. They don't look bored, merely sneering, and that's most likely because half of these guys are corrupt idiots who hate Tony because of what he represents- fairness in the system. And- a THROWAWAY line? It was the CENTREPIECE to Tony's argument there. He's not saying Cap's evil or wrong, he's saying Cap believed the very worst of the government- and it's up to them to prove him wrong. He's defying them to prove that government doesn't have to be corrupt or stupid or foolish. And if you think that's "throwaway", and if you think Cap wouldn't have wanted that, then I have no idea what you're reading.

And again, "crocodile tears". I've read four major sources on Tony's feelings on Cap's death. Every single one said it blew his world out from under him. Tony has expressed more emotion, more genuine feeling on Cap's death than any other character in comicdom except the core cast of "Captain America", so I don'tt hink there's even a VAGUE justification for calling them crocodile tears.

Oh, and that said- this reminds me whu I'm pro-registration. Tony's little speech there is my favourite Iron Man moment in quite a while... :)

Much as I hate to admit it the only part I can directly argue there is the idea that Tony operates from a fairness standpoint. Tony operates from a 'I'll do what I think needs to be done no matter what' philosophy that doesn't factor in the concept of fair. And the US government being portrayed as currupt, foolish and down right evil at times is the norm in the MU. This is the system that Tony championed, the idea that it will now allow the Mandarin to kill an unknown number of people is both satisfying and depressing. Satisfying that Tony will be shown to be wrong, depressing that a lot of people will have to die to do it.
That is if it happens. I believe that what ever this committe he is facing decides Tony will find a way around it and buy his way out of the other side of the problem either with direct bribes or some other way. I don't see the Knauf's allowing the sra to be shown in such a bad light.

Mark_S

[Teh m0nk3y]

Much as I hate to admit it the only part I can argue there is the idea that Tony operates from a fairness standpoint. Tony operates from a 'I'll do what I think needs to be done no matter what' philosophy that doesn't factor in the concept of fair. What ever this committe he is facing decides Tony will find a way around it. And I'll easily argue that he is-or at least has been-as currupt as they might be.

Mark_S

Of course he is going to try to by-pass the committee if they decide to stall or not believe him. The consequences of not doing anything would be several million dead by the air-born extremis virus.

[MichaelChen]

Billions dead, actually, not just millions. There will be something like a hundred-million people left alive if Borjigin succeeds.

[Mark_S]

Of course he is going to try to by-pass the committee if they decide to stall or not believe him. The consequences of not doing anything would be several million dead by the air-born extremis virus.

Oh I agree he would be quite justified in bypassing the comittee to save that many, but it does sort of blow a hole in the 'Law is the law' philosophy that he followed in cw. But I also believe that the Knauf's-who do believe in the sra-won't let it come to that. Because if the sra puts that many lives in danger and even the man at the head of it can't do anything but break the law to save them, then in my opinion the sra looses a bit of credibility. At least in the letter since supposedly the other side of the sra was to provide accountablity and in that sense this hearing is fullfilling the promise of the sra. Well sort of. It was SHIELD that blew the bomb, not an independent or registered hero, even SHIELD can't get away with blowing up a nuke without someone noticing it. Even before the sra I'm sure a hearing would have been held.

Mark_S

[SquidSquod]

Silver Centurion Armor is in it?

[Tobias Drake]

This is the system that Tony championed, the idea that it will now allow the Mandarin to kill an unknown number of people is both satisfying and depressing. Satisfying that Tony will be shown to be wrong, depressing that a lot of people will have to die to do it.

In the committee's defense, there is absolutely no evidence of anything that Tony is saying. Maya, who created the threat, is with Tem. There is STILL no evidence that the Mandarin is even alive. The base where they could have gotten proof was wiped off the map completely. The key witness is going off half-cocked to die a fool's death in a vain and ultimately worthless attempt to kill Tem himself. There is no corroborating evidence except for the vocal testimony of a man who just caused an unauthorized nuclear bombing on American soil.

We know that billions will die if Tony doesn't stop the Mandarin, but from where they are sitting, there is no threat. The Mandarin is dead, the Extremis crisis does not exist, because there is nothing to suggest that it does. The only threat is letting Stark, Dugan, and Hill commit another nuclear bombing on American soil. Tony's going to have to talk very hard and very well, and I appreciate his bringing up the Civil War because it reminds them that he is the one they put their faith into, he is the one that defended them. His mention of Captain America didn't strike me as derogatory in any way; he was basically saying, "I fought long and hard because I believed this wouldn't happen. Let me go, or prove that Cap was right about you all along." He's put them in a catch-22 where if they don't agree to let him follow this to its conclusion, then they have themselves invalidated their own side.

[XPac]

"I fought long and hard because I believed this wouldn't happen. Let me go, or prove that Cap was right about you all along." .

Which is kind of ironic, since the reason he fought so long and hard was because he DID think Cap was right about them.

[Tobias Drake]

Which is kind of ironic, since the reason he fought so long and hard was because he DID think Cap was right about them.

Which is why he's making this argument. It's easy to be sleaze. It's harder to openly say, "I am sleaze." Tony Stark is forcing them to either let him go, or publicly and openly acknowledge that Captain America was right about them. That, right there, is the crucial point.

Gyrich may be an anti-meta bastard. But you'd be hard pressed to have him actually say, "I am an anti-meta bastard and I want them all enslaved or dead."

[XPac]

Which is why he's making this argument. It's easy to be sleaze. It's harder to openly say, "I am sleaze." Tony Stark is forcing them to either let him go, or publicly and openly acknowledge that Captain America was right about them. That, right there, is the crucial point.

Gyrich may be an anti-meta bastard. But you'd be hard pressed to have him actually say, "I am an anti-meta bastard and I want them all enslaved or dead."

That's why this is so fun. Stark champions a system of red tape that he's now being strangled with, all the while billions of lives are hanging in the balance.

[Tobias Drake]

That's why this is so fun. Stark champions a system of red tape that he's now being strangled with, all the while billions of lives are hanging in the balance.

He's been trying to work from within the system since the very start of Civil War. This is a crucial moment for that. This will be the test of his belief that the system can change, that they CAN work from within it. It all hinges on this moment.

[Mark_S]

Gyrich may be an anti-meta bastard. But you'd be hard pressed to have him actually say, "I am an anti-meta bastard and I want them all enslaved or dead."

At least out loud.

Mark_S

[mikekerr3]

Gyrich may be an anti-meta bastard. But you'd be hard pressed to have him actually say, "I am an anti-meta bastard and I want them all enslaved or dead."

His involvement with the original Wideawke and with Bastion says just that. You may choose to ignore that, but it is in the books.

[Tobias Drake]

His involvement with the original Wideawke and with Bastion says just that. You may choose to ignore that, but it is in the books.

At least out loud.

Mark_S

What Mark said. Neither of those says that, because he never once stepped forward and said, "Hey, I have an idea. Listen to me. I think we should massacre all metahumans. Really, that would be a great idea. Let's just kill everyone. Who thinks metahumans should all die?" At no point does he say those words.

Sleaze rarely realizes or, at the very least, acknowledges that it is sleaze. Gyrich honestly believes that he's doing what's best for his nation. He believes he is a hero, not an evil mass-murderer. In his own eyes, Gyrich is a hero. To place him in a situation where he will either give you what you want, or be forced to sacrifice his own high opinion of himself, there is a strong chance he will go along with you.

But Gyrich is just an example. The point of it is, MOST, if not all, people do not think of themselves as monstrous, evil creatures. Most people do not wake up in the morning and say, "What evil, nefarious deeds can I do today?" Most people are, themselves, the hero of their own story, and that is why Stark is bringing up Captain America. Because most people, faced with a choice, will not make the choice they, themselves, acknowledge as being the wrong one. By creating this situation in which they can either allow him to pursue his investigation, or openly and vocally say "Captain America was right. We cannot be trusted.", not just imply it by their actions, but speak the words out loud and acknowledge to themselves that they are scum and not the heroes of their stories, there is a strong chance he will succeed.

[jackolover]

Tony's going to have to talk very hard and very well, and I appreciate his bringing up the Civil War because it reminds them that he is the one they put their faith into, he is the one that defended them. His mention of Captain America didn't strike me as derogatory in any way; he was basically saying, "I fought long and hard because I believed this wouldn't happen. Let me go, or prove that Cap was right about you all along." He's put them in a catch-22 where if they don't agree to let him follow this to its conclusion, then they have themselves invalidated their own side.

If your and Mags' take on the Cap reference is correct, it still leaves Tony making unvarified claims, and pleading for the committee to take his word for the Mandarins Extremis Doomsday. Nobody in that commitee is going to buy Tonys pleading with them, because, like you say, there is no evidence other than that Tony is a mass murderer, using Nukes.

I think Tony would have to get some corroberating witness statements from Hill and Dugan, to even make his claims sensible, and from what we have seen in the books, Dugan convincing Hill had just as much emotional blackmail associated with it than Tonys orders on Dugan.

This has been a well written sequence of 3 issues, that have tied Stark up in knots, and I'm sure Tony will come out in the end. But if the Extremis virus is released, there isn't going to be much left of humanity except mush.

[Tobias Drake]

If your and Mags' take on the Cap reference is correct, it still leaves Tony making unvarified claims, and pleading for the committee to take his word for the Mandarins Extremis Doomsday. Nobody in that commitee is going to buy Tonys pleading with them, because, like you say, there is no evidence other than that Tony is a mass murderer, using Nukes.

I think Tony would have to get some corroberating witness statements from Hill and Dugan, to even make his claims sensible, and from what we have seen in the books, Dugan convincing Hill had just as much emotional blackmail associated with it than Tonys orders on Dugan.

This has been a well written sequence of 3 issues, that have tied Stark up in knots, and I'm sure Tony will come out in the end. But if the Extremis virus is released, there isn't going to be much left of humanity except mush.

He doesn't have to convince them to give him free reign, though. He just has to convince them to give him some time to look into this. I doubt corroborating witness statements from Hill or Dugan would do him much good, because they're in about as deep as he is. That's like having one burglar get corroborating witness statements from his two partners that were also arrested, to try and prove he committed no crime.

Ultimately, the CSA would not be wrong to ground Stark permanently. That's the horror of the situation that the Mandarin has placed him into. The wrong choice would be to allow him to walk free, and that is what Stark needs to pull off: he needs to convince the CSA to make the wrong choice.

Sidenote: Dugan convincing Hill also probably had something to do with the Skrulls attempting to murder Stark. I have no doubt Dugan was attempting to pull that off.

[mikekerr3]

In his own eyes, Gyrich is a hero. To place him in a situation where he will either give you what you want, or be forced to sacrifice his own high opinion of himself, there is a strong chance he will go along with you.
.

That would apply to every villian in the MU and the real world, Vlad Tepes thought himself a great hero as did Stalin. I don;t care what the scumbag thinks of himself, Starks actions predictably lead him to a position to harm people, Gyrich like harming people and has a history of it. The simple fact is the Mu goverment has the basic fallback position of bigotry and hatred. Stark is functionally helping with that agenda by giving them more power.

[Tobias Drake]

That would apply to every villian in the MU and the real world, Vlad Tepes thought himself a great hero as did Stalin. I don;t care what the scumbag thinks of himself, Starks actions predictably lead him to a position to harm people, Gyrich like harming people and has a history of it. The simple fact is the Mu goverment has the basic fallback position of bigotry and hatred. Stark is functionally helping with that agenda by giving them more power.

And in what way does that have anything to do with Stark's speech before the CSA and the situation presented here?

[Mark_S]

What Mark said. Neither of those says that, because he never once stepped forward and said, "Hey, I have an idea. Listen to me. I think we should massacre all metahumans. Really, that would be a great idea. Let's just kill everyone. Who thinks metahumans should all die?" At no point does he say those words.

Sleaze rarely realizes or, at the very least, acknowledges that it is sleaze. Gyrich honestly believes that he's doing what's best for his nation. He believes he is a hero, not an evil mass-murderer. In his own eyes, Gyrich is a hero. To place him in a situation where he will either give you what you want, or be forced to sacrifice his own high opinion of himself, there is a strong chance he will go along with you.

But Gyrich is just an example. The point of it is, MOST, if not all, people do not think of themselves as monstrous, evil creatures. Most people do not wake up in the morning and say, "What evil, nefarious deeds can I do today?" Most people are, themselves, the hero of their own story, and that is why Stark is bringing up Captain America. Because most people, faced with a choice, will not make the choice they, themselves, acknowledge as being the wrong one. By creating this situation in which they can either allow him to pursue his investigation, or openly and vocally say "Captain America was right. We cannot be trusted.", not just imply it by their actions, but speak the words out loud and acknowledge to themselves that they are scum and not the heroes of their stories, there is a strong chance he will succeed.

And this is where some actual suspense comes into play. The Knauf's think that Tony is a hero, but they also believe in the sra. So if they write him heroically defying the committee and risking all they prove that in one way at least Cap was right and that the sra was wrong. But if they write the committee as giving Tony the go ahead they write the sra as being good, but Tony himself can come off as less of a hero because he was willing to let everyone die in the time he took this to the comittee.

Sadly we know that something stopped the Mandarin because everyone seems to be ok at the begining of SI-unless it was the skrulls who stoped him and saved everyone and that would be far, far to ironic for marvel to deal with. So a lot of the suspense is pretty much gone.

Mark_S

[Tobias Drake]

And this is where some actual suspense comes into play. The Knauf's think that Tony is a hero, but they also believe in the sra. So if they write him heroically defying the committee and risking all they prove that in one way at least Cap was right and that the sra was wrong. But if they write the committee as giving Tony the go ahead they write the sra as being good, but Tony himself can come off as less of a hero because he was willing to let everyone die in the time he took this to the comittee.

Sadly we know that something stopped the Mandarin because everyone seems to be ok at the begining of SI-unless it was the skrulls who stoped him and saved everyone and that would be far, far to ironic for marvel to deal with. So a lot of the suspense is pretty much gone.

Mark_S

The only suspense that's gone is suspense that was never there. If you honestly go into any story thinking the villain will actually succeed in killing the hero and destroying the world, sure, there's some suspense gone. But really, how much is honestly spoiled by knowing, "Somehow, in some way, the hero will save the world in the end"? 99.95% of all stories end like this.

[Mark_S]

That would apply to every villian in the MU and the real world, Vlad Tepes thought himself a great hero as did Stalin. I don;t care what the scumbag thinks of himself, Starks actions predictably lead him to a position to harm people, Gyrich like harming people and has a history of it. The simple fact is the Mu goverment has the basic fallback position of bigotry and hatred. Stark is functionally helping with that agenda by giving them more power.

I think it has more to do with what Tom Baker once said. He said that he would never play a villain as a villain, merely as someone with different goals than the hero. He did this marvelously in a Sinbad movie.

I think the Knauf's (and Tobias) view Tony at this point as a good man who has fought from within the system to change it, not as you (and I more or less) see him as a semi-good man with a slight case of meglomania and a willingness to sacrifice anyone and everyone so long as his goals are met.

Mark_S

[Mark_S]

The only suspense that's gone is suspense that was never there. If you honestly go into any story thinking the villain will actually succeed in killing the hero and destroying the world, sure, there's some suspense gone. But really, how much is honestly spoiled by knowing, "Somehow, in some way, the hero will save the world in the end"? 99.95% of all stories end like this.

Yes, but there is one thing above all else I will give marvel credit for, they don't care how many people die in a story. So while I didn't think that the Mandarin was going to win (though I was rooting for him since he was battling Tony), I did expect that-at least in this book- there would be a body count in the billions. Remember, that would only be in this book. Marvel books are indepent much of the time. Kang invaded the world and no one outside the Avengers really noticed. It's marvels way.

Mark_S

[XPac]

What Mark said. Neither of those says that, because he never once stepped forward and said, "Hey, I have an idea. Listen to me. I think we should massacre all metahumans. Really, that would be a great idea. Let's just kill everyone. Who thinks metahumans should all die?" At no point does he say those words.

Sleaze rarely realizes or, at the very least, acknowledges that it is sleaze. Gyrich honestly believes that he's doing what's best for his nation. He believes he is a hero, not an evil mass-murderer. In his own eyes, Gyrich is a hero. To place him in a situation where he will either give you what you want, or be forced to sacrifice his own high opinion of himself, there is a strong chance he will go along with you.

But Gyrich is just an example. The point of it is, MOST, if not all, people do not think of themselves as monstrous, evil creatures. Most people do not wake up in the morning and say, "What evil, nefarious deeds can I do today?" Most people are, themselves, the hero of their own story, and that is why Stark is bringing up Captain America. Because most people, faced with a choice, will not make the choice they, themselves, acknowledge as being the wrong one. By creating this situation in which they can either allow him to pursue his investigation, or openly and vocally say "Captain America was right. We cannot be trusted.", not just imply it by their actions, but speak the words out loud and acknowledge to themselves that they are scum and not the heroes of their stories, there is a strong chance he will succeed.

So basically, if the government moves too slowly (or not at all) on this and Tony is forced to deal with this himself (like Fury had to in Secret War), that officially proves Cap was right? I'm liking this more and more... go Mandarin!

[Tobias Drake]

Yes, but there is one thing above all else I will give marvel credit for, they don't care how many people die in a story. So while I didn't think that the Mandarin was going to win (though I was rooting for him since he was battling Tony), I did expect that-at least in this book- there would be a body count in the billions. Remember, that would only be in this book. Marvel books are indepent much of the time. Kang invaded the world and no one outside the Avengers really noticed. It's marvels way.

Mark_S

Yeah, but there's a difference between invading the world and slaughtering 97.5% of the population. There is no way for that to go unnoticed without the continuity fracturing completely and Iron Man never again crossing over into the other stories.

[Mark_S]

Yeah, but there's a difference between invading the world and slaughtering 97.5% of the population. There is no way for that to go unnoticed without the continuity fracturing completely and Iron Man never again crossing over into the other stories.

Well there is really, marvel could just ignore it in all of the other titles.

Mark_S

[jackolover]

Sidenote: Dugan convincing Hill also probably had something to do with the Skrulls attempting to murder Stark. I have no doubt Dugan was attempting to pull that off.

How did he try to do this? I couldn't see any evidence that this was
an attempt to kill Tony.

[Tobias Drake]

How did he try to do this? I couldn't see any evidence that this was
an attempt to kill Tony.

...you don't see how Skrull-Dugan dropping a nuclear weapon that is almost guaranteed to kill everything in the blast directly on Tony's exact location could kill him? By convincing Hill to go along with it, Dugan had a perfect opportunity to assassinate Tony Stark, crippling Earth's defenses at a crucial moment, and to do it completely in character without endangering his cover, because Stark HIMSELF gave the order.

[jackolover]

...you don't see how Skrull-Dugan dropping a nuclear weapon that is almost guaranteed to kill everything in the blast directly on Tony's exact location could kill him? By convincing Hill to go along with it, Dugan had a perfect opportunity to assassinate Tony Stark, crippling Earth's defenses at a crucial moment, and to do it completely in character without endangering his cover, because Stark HIMSELF gave the order.

It still reads like :

Dugan convinced Hill to drop the bomb, not like a Skrull, who knocked her over and Dugan pressed the button. And Tony knew they were dropping the bomb,so I have every faith Tony knew it was coming and how long he had to get out of the drop zone. That Tony was suspected as KIA, was just a risk of the action, but that he survived, was part of the planning as well . I don't see Dugan as the Skrull in this book as yet, although it would be interesting if he is.

[Tobias Drake]

It still reads like :

Dugan convinced Hill to drop the bomb, not like a Skrull, who knocked her over and Dugan pressed the button. And Tony knew they were dropping the bomb,so I have every faith Tony knew it was coming and how long he had to get out of the drop zone. That Tony was suspected as KIA, was just a risk of the action, but that he survived, was part of the planning as well . I don't see Dugan as the Skrull in this book as yet, although it would be interesting if he is.

That's the part about maintaining his cover. What possible cover would he maintain by shoving Hill over and slamming his hand on the button? A Skrull that blew his cover at a moment's notice would be a worthless secret agent. The whole point of having spies is that they don't reveal themselves, and that would. If Dugan delivered a very moving, inspiring speech to Hill that convinced her to do the job for him, then he is a very good Skrull.

Don't expect the Skrulls to be showing their hand before they make their move. Dugan had to remain in character. The reason he worked so hard to convince her, everything he said to her, was because he had to remain in character. That's what undercover operatives do. To put it in simple terms: if you could tell, at any point, that he was trying to kill Tony, then he has failed as an undercover operative.

[jackolover]

That's the part about maintaining his cover. What possible cover would he maintain by shoving Hill over and slamming his hand on the button? A Skrull that blew his cover at a moment's notice would be a worthless secret agent. The whole point of having spies is that they don't reveal themselves, and that would. If Dugan delivered a very moving, inspiring speech to Hill that convinced her to do the job for him, then he is a very good Skrull.

Don't expect the Skrulls to be showing their hand before they make their move. Dugan had to remain in character. The reason he worked so hard to convince her, everything he said to her, was because he had to remain in character. That's what undercover operatives do. To put it in simple terms: if you could tell, at any point, that he was trying to kill Tony, then he has failed as an undercover operative.

You're asking me to believe something that I don't see is happeneing. This is some incredibly smartSkrull you are talking about. If all the Skrulls were this smart then we'd be a in a lot of trouble, as Maxwell Smart would say.

[mikekerr3]

Yeah, but there's a difference between invading the world and slaughtering 97.5% of the population. There is no way for that to go unnoticed without the continuity fracturing completely and Iron Man never again crossing over into the other stories.

The World was concuerd all goverment overthrown and nobody seems to remember. I'm sure they could forget 97.5% deaths easily too. They seem to have forgotten the many time the heros have save the world very publicly from r thing like Galactus so why not this. WWH happened and outside that book nobody seemed to notice NY getting totally smashed.

[Tobias Drake]

You're asking me to believe something that I don't see is happeneing. This is some incredibly smartSkrull you are talking about. If all the Skrulls were this smart then we'd be a in a lot of trouble, as Maxwell Smart would say.

Yeah, but we already know he's a Skrull and has been since Captain America died. Which means he's still a Skrull right here, when he was convincing Hill to nuke Tony to ash. It just stands to reason, then, that his convincing her to take an action that is almost guaranteed to kill Tony Stark has more reason behind it than simply because Tony told him to.

[jackolover]

Yeah, but we already know he's a Skrull and has been since Captain America died. Which means he's still a Skrull right here, when he was convincing Hill to nuke Tony to ash. It just stands to reason, then, that his convincing her to take an action that is almost guaranteed to kill Tony Stark has more reason behind it than simply because Tony told him to.

If that excerpt in Marvels prologue of Secert Invasion is correct, and the takeover of Dugan did happen at Caps wake. Was it specifically mentioned, or was it just assumed? I wasn't convinced when the Skrull took Dugans place was near Caps wake. That means Dugan at the bar talking to Ben Grimm in the Cap book, as Sharon called him away, could have been a Skrull?

[Tobias Drake]

If that excerpt in Marvels prologue of Secert Invasion is correct, and the takeover of Dugan did happen at Caps wake. Was it specifically mentioned, or was it just assumed? I wasn't convinced when the Skrull took Dugans place was near Caps wake. That means Dugan at the bar talking to Ben Grimm in the Cap book, as Sharon called him away, could have been a Skrull?

The news was still just breaking when Dugan walked out to be ambushed. Which means there is a significant chance that the Dugan at the bar talking to Ben Grimm was a Skrull. If the infiltrators do their job right, you should never know they're there. They should remain completely in character around other people, never revealing themselves, never acting Skrullish, never doing anything that would give them away unless there is no other option. Dugan has done his job right.

[jackolover]

The news was still just breaking when Dugan walked out to be ambushed. Which means there is a significant chance that the Dugan at the bar talking to Ben Grimm was a Skrull. If the infiltrators do their job right, you should never know they're there. They should remain completely in character around other people, never revealing themselves, never acting Skrullish, never doing anything that would give them away unless there is no other option. Dugan has done his job right.

Wow, that is just mind blowing. I may have to re-read Iron Man and Cap after this.

[bulbasteve]

He's been trying to work from within the system since the very start of Civil War. This is a crucial moment for that. This will be the test of his belief that the system can change, that they CAN work from within it. It all hinges on this moment.

Shows what I know, last issue (and honestly in most) I thought it was a silly distraction from the meat of Tony's character development. (well ok I think that of every subplot...)

I need to have more faith in the Knauf's.