View Full Version : "Secret Invasion" First Strike -- Bendis on Who Was Hit and Why
mattbib
04-03-2008, 08:11 AM
Read the spoiler-heavy Newsarama article/interview here (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=152346).
IronStarks
04-03-2008, 08:22 AM
wow good read, pretty much summed everything up, though i still think the attack on Thunderbolt Mt. was more then a simple Captain Marvel as a Skrull attacking it
Beast
04-03-2008, 08:35 AM
wow good read, pretty much summed everything up, though i still think the attack on Thunderbolt Mt. was more then a simple Captain Marvel as a Skrull attacking it
I don't believe there was. The delay of Captain Marvel #5 sorta screwed things up.
Brian M.
04-03-2008, 08:40 AM
Loved how at the end of this interview he just goes "then I'll unplug my computer".
Bendis is good people.
Beast
04-03-2008, 08:41 AM
Just finished reading it. Definatly more evidence that Spider-Woman is a Skrull.
After what she pulled in Mighty Avengers #11 by somehow breaking Doom's spell. And how she ensured that both teams of Avengers were there to crack open the downed Skrull ship. With what Bendis said, it's the only thing that makes sense. I'm almost betting she took Elektra's body to Stark on purpose. To not only start sewing mistrust and chaos, but to get herself on the team. Which means she's probably the only Skrull on that team.
TotalWorldDomination
04-03-2008, 08:42 AM
I don't believe there was. The delay of Captain Marvel #5 sorta screwed things up.
I want to believe that (or perhaps I don't and that's why I'm reaching), but after each of these attacks the skrull in question did the whole "He Loves You" bit. and unless Cap Marvel is the He they are referring to, logically he'd say it... if he were a skrull that is.
I loved the idea that Cap was destined to go back in time and die, why ruin it with making him all rib-chinned?
Beast
04-03-2008, 08:45 AM
I want to believe that (or perhaps I don't and that's why I'm reaching), but after each of these attacks the skrull in question did the whole "He Loves You" bit. and unless Cap Marvel is the He they are referring to, logically he'd say it... if he were a skrull that is.
I loved the idea that Cap was destined to go back in time and die, why ruin it with making him all rib-chinned?
Because almost nobody liked the Civil War storyline where he returned.
This is an easy way to toss that whole plotline in the garbage where it should have stayed.
As for the "He loves you" thing, he just blew open the mountain. We'll probably see that in T-Bolts.
CMBMOOL
04-03-2008, 08:47 AM
I still question that "He loves you" quote and the disapperance of the Wasp in issue #1. :(
TotalWorldDomination
04-03-2008, 08:51 AM
Just finished reading it. Definatly more evidence that Spider-Woman is a Skrull.
After what she pulled in Mighty Avengers #11 by somehow breaking Doom's spell. And how she ensured that both teams of Avengers were there to crack open the downed Skrull ship. With what Bendis said, it's the only thing that makes sense. I'm almost betting she took Elektra's body to Stark on purpose. To not only start sewing mistrust and chaos, but to get herself on the team. Which means she's probably the only Skrull on that team.
She talked openly about betraying stark by calling the NA's (or Secret Avengers as they go back to being called in this issue) in front of Tony Starks highly skrully and loyal butler. The only way that scene makes sense is if Jarvis is a skrull and Spider-Woman is a skrull. It's the only way she'd talk like that in front of him.
Beast
04-03-2008, 08:53 AM
She talked openly about betraying stark by calling the NA's (or Secret Avengers as they go back to being called in this issue) in front of Tony Starks highly skrully and loyal butler. The only way that scene makes sense is if Jarvis is a skrull and Spider-Woman is a skrull. It's the only way she'd talk like that in front of him.
Yep. Another piece of evidence that screams 'Spider-Woman = Skrull'. There's no doubt.
LordAllMighty
04-03-2008, 09:02 AM
Just finished reading it. Definatly more evidence that Spider-Woman is a Skrull.
After what she pulled in Mighty Avengers #11 by somehow breaking Doom's spell. And how she ensured that both teams of Avengers were there to crack open the downed Skrull ship. With what Bendis said, it's the only thing that makes sense. I'm almost betting she took Elektra's body to Stark on purpose. To not only start sewing mistrust and chaos, but to get herself on the team. Which means she's probably the only Skrull on that team.
You know, you could flip that. If Spider-Woman is a skrull then she could be trying to help the heroes.
IMHO, I would find that more interesting. On the other hand, given comicbook logic, she would have die at the end of this event though
Beast
04-03-2008, 09:09 AM
You know, you could flip that. If Spider-Woman is a skrull then she could be trying to help the heroes.
IMHO, I would find that more interesting. On the other hand, given comicbook logic, she would have die at the end of this event though
Wouldn't Jarvis be aware that she's trying to circumvent his mission though, and take her out?
After all, I'm sure that Skrulls can definatly tell each other apart even when shapeshifted.
To me, what will make or break the series is whether the explanation of how the Skrulls cannot be detected makes sense. The infiltrations and sabotage themselves make sense so far.
Very few of those 70s heroes will turn out to be real. Can you imagine the outrage if Wolverine turned out to have been a Skrull for years? Specially after the One More Day fiasco...
One problem: if anybody might be a Skrull, then how do we know who to root for? We might be cheering for, say, Captain Marvel and then it turns he's a Skrull too...
Mark_S
04-03-2008, 09:25 AM
To me, what will make or break the series is whether the explanation for why the Skrulls cannot be detected makes sense. The infiltrations and sabotage themselves make sense so far.
Very few of those 70s heroes will turn out to be real. Can you imagine the outrage if Wolverine turned out to have been a Skrull for years? Specially after the One More Day fiasco...
One problem: if anybody might be a Skrull, then how do we know who to root for? We might be cheering for, say, Captain Marvel and then it turns he's a Skrull too...
I don't think that outrage is something that marvel really worries about. You can say a lot of things (and I have), but they publish what they want to publish, no matter the reaction. If it works in the story and they are satisfied it is the way to go they go with it.
I've solved the second problem, I'm rooting for the skrulls. :)
Mark_S
I honestly have doubts Spider-Woman is a skrull. If she were, Bendis probably wouldn't have had her convininetly whip out some brand new power out of the blue like that... he even had Black Widow grilling her over it. I don't think he'd give that obvious a clue. Plus, Bendis is doing a Spider Woman series down the line... I think people with their own solo on-going books really shouldn't be suspects.
I think it's more likely she's a red herring to detract the attention away from other possible skrulls. I think the REAL clues were really in the thought bubbles, and the rest is just largely misdirection.
Beast
04-03-2008, 09:45 AM
I honestly have doubts Spider-Woman is a skrull. If she were, Bendis probably wouldn't have had her convininetly whip out some brand new power out of the blue like that... he even had Black Widow grilling her over it. I don't think he'd give that obvious a clue. Plus, Bendis is doing a Spider Woman series down the line... I think people with their own solo on-going books really shouldn't be suspects.
I think it's more likely she's a red herring to detract the attention away from other possible skrulls. I think the REAL clues were really in the thought bubbles, and the rest is just largely misdirection.
She doesn't have an on-going book yet. The clues are there even Bendis points to them.
Good stuff, I particularly found this funny:
Frankly I'm suprised they're even bothering with the TBolts.
Since the TBolts largely do nothing except chase after registered heroes, they're largely just doing the skrulls a favor by crippling a few D listers the skrulls may not want to bother with.
She doesn't have an on-going book yet. The clues are there even Bendis points to them.
Yeah... but I just think her developing some new uber power out of the blue, and having Black Widow question her over it is too much of a glaring clue. I'm assuming if he actually wants this to be a mystery, the real clues will be a bit smarter and more subtle than that.
But maybe I'm giving Bendis too much credit as a mystery writer. We'll see.
Brian M.
04-03-2008, 09:52 AM
Yeah... but I just think her developing some new uber power out of the blue, and having Black Widow question her over it is too much of a glaring clue. I'm assuming if he actually wants this to be a mystery, the real clues will be a bit smarter and more subtle than that.
But maybe I'm giving Bendis too much credit as a mystery writer. We'll see.
Well he's had years to build up the mystery of Spider-Woman. The week before the event really isn't the time to START building the mystery. Not everything has to be a red herring.
Beast
04-03-2008, 09:54 AM
Well he's had years to build up the mystery of Spider-Woman. The week before the event really isn't the time to START building the mystery. Not everything has to be a red herring.
Exactly. Just look at all the wonkyness with her origins and all the other stuff about her that just doesn't quite add up. It's not just her pulling a power out of her ass. Her being a Skrull makes the most sense.
Well he's had years to build up the mystery of Spider-Woman. The week before the event really isn't the time to START building the mystery. Not everything has to be a red herring.
No... but if he expects people to be suprised about her being revealed as a skrull after he had Black Widow basicaly grill her the way he did, Bendis will be in for a bit of disappoitnment.
It's a very bad way to build up a skrull reveal.
TotalWorldDomination
04-03-2008, 09:58 AM
I honestly have doubts Spider-Woman is a skrull. If she were, Bendis probably wouldn't have had her convininetly whip out some brand new power out of the blue like that... he even had Black Widow grilling her over it. I don't think he'd give that obvious a clue. Plus, Bendis is doing a Spider Woman series down the line... I think people with their own solo on-going books really shouldn't be suspects.
I think it's more likely she's a red herring to detract the attention away from other possible skrulls. I think the REAL clues were really in the thought bubbles, and the rest is just largely misdirection.
Emphasis Mine.
How do you know she's going to get that ongoing? Or that it'll be the same Spider-Woman? Not to disparage the folks at the House of Ideas, but Marvel has been know to lie through there teeth in order to mis-direct. Remember those Amazon pages for the non-existent Cap-As-Iron-Man trades? Fake Solitics? Lying in interviews? Using Spider-Womans rumored series as a justification for her not being a skrull is not the best argument.
Will.S
04-03-2008, 10:00 AM
Frankly I'm suprised they're even bothering with the TBolts.
Since the TBolts largely do nothing except chase after registered heroes, they're largely just doing the skrulls a favor by crippling a few D listers the skrulls may not want to bother with.
Yeah but the CSA could just order the T-Bolts to fight the skrulls and then it's another threat on their hands.
I'm just wondering when the skrull attack on the T-Bolts takes place in context of Warren's run. Could it be in between the Warren Ellis and the Christos Gage issues?
TotalWorldDomination
04-03-2008, 10:01 AM
Frankly I'm suprised they're even bothering with the TBolts.
Since the TBolts largely do nothing except chase after registered heroes, they're largely just doing the skrulls a favor by crippling a few D listers the skrulls may not want to bother with.
Because the T-Bolts are the only group in the comics that have an unwavering loyalty based purely on hating everone else. Hatred is a much stronger unifier then trust. They don't care if someone comes to them claiming to be a teammate that was captured by the skrulls. They're going to kill everyone and sort the rest out later. and the simple fact that they're willing to kill at first glance (and killing is much easier then beating up) makes them the biggest threat out there not lead by a former member of the Illumniati.
Beast
04-03-2008, 10:05 AM
No... but if he expects people to be suprised about her being revealed as a skrull after he had Black Widow basicaly grill her the way he did, Bendis will be in for a bit of disappoitnment.
It's a very bad way to build up a skrull reveal.
Or he expects everyone to think she's not a Skrull, simply because it's too obvious that she is.
Like you. ;)
Emphasis Mine.
How do you know she's going to get that ongoing? Or that it'll be the same Spider-Woman? Not to disparage the folks at the House of Ideas, but Marvel has been know to lie through there teeth in order to mis-direct. Remember those Amazon pages for the non-existent Cap-As-Iron-Man trades? Fake Solitics? Lying in interviews? Using Spider-Womans rumored series as a justification for her not being a skrull is not the best argument.
I personally don't think Bendis would flat out lie in various interviews about doing a comicbook if he didn't at least at the time believe he was doing one.
Misdirection is sollicits is one thing... but to flat out make something up like that intentionally is another. But we'll see I guess.
Because the T-Bolts are the only group in the comics that have an unwavering loyalty based purely on hating everone else. Hatred is a much stronger unifier then trust. They don't care if someone comes to them claiming to be a teammate that was captured by the skrulls. They're going to kill everyone and sort the rest out later. and the simple fact that they're willing to kill at first glance (and killing is much easier then beating up) makes them the biggest threat out there not lead by a former member of the Illumniati.
Sure... I'd definately agree that they would be dangerous if they were even remotely close to being competent as a team.
I'm just saying that the TBolts mandate really shoudln't effect the skrulls to any significant degree. From Silent War to World War Hulk, they've basically sat out and did specifically the job they were made for and nothing else.
If I were the skrulls I'd sooner target that were likely to actually bother doing something about the Skrull Invasion. I'd target Xaviers place before the TBolts. I'm not saying I wouldn't get to the TBolts eventually... just saying they wouldn't be one of my initial targets.
Beast
04-03-2008, 10:13 AM
I personally don't think Bendis would flat out lie in various interviews about doing a comicbook if he didn't at least at the time believe he was doing one.
Misdirection is sollicits is one thing... but to flat out make something up like that intentionally is another. But we'll see I guess.
Or the nature of the solo is going to deal with Skrull Spider-Woman?
gorthon616
04-03-2008, 10:28 AM
Sure... I'd definately agree that they would be dangerous if they were even remotely close to being competent as a team.
I'm just saying that the TBolts mandate really shouldn't effect the skrulls to any significant degree. From Silent War to World War Hulk, they've basically sat out and did specifically the job they were made for and nothing else.
If I were the skrulls I'd sooner target that were likely to actually bother doing something about the Skrull Invasion. I'd target Xaviers place before the TBolts. I'm not saying I wouldn't get to the TBolts eventually... just saying they wouldn't be one of my initial targets.
There also pretty a non-threat see as how they get owned like it was no ones business. Venom (or as Songbird called him "that guy who Spider-Man beats up every other month") is a threat to the Skrulls? Oh please. Why don't they take down Paste-Pot-Pete while they are at it....
Going after the Thunderbolts makes enough sense that I won't bicker about it... but you're right it doesn't make that much sense at all. The only good idea that I can say for prioritizing them in the first wave is that since they are independent operators from Initiative/SHIELD proper pissing them off might work to the Skrulls advantage as they try to take everybody down. There's also the issue that they might not have perfect intel on that since it's a different division than SHIELD/Initiative answering to the CSA, so they might incorrectly be gauging their power level.
And it make absolutely no sense for them to try to do the here's the real deal thing with the 70's rendition of Iron Man. I mean, if the current Tony WAS a Skrull wouldn't they ALREADY be owning the world? It's like you took all this time to impersonate the President with a Skrull, then you assassinate that Skrull, and get another Skrull.... to impersonate the President... Uh huh.
Mark_S
04-03-2008, 10:31 AM
Oh my God – there’s Luke in his unbelievably tacky clothes from the ‘70s.
I really don't think of Luke's old costume as tacky. I think what he wears now is down right ugly though.
Taking out the Thunderbolts makes sense because as Bendis said they are black opps. Meaning if the Skrulls take over a city and enslave the population then the Thunderbolts would have no trouble nuking it and civillain population be damned. It's far easier to face an enemy with a few morals then one without.
Mark_S
There also pretty a non-threat see as how they get owned like it was no ones business. Venom (or as Songbird called him "that guy who Spider-Man beats up every other month") is a threat to the Skrulls? Oh please. Why don't they take down Paste-Pot-Pete while they are at it....
Going after the Thunderbolts makes enough sense that I won't bicker about it... but you're right it doesn't make that much sense at all. The only good idea that I can say for prioritizing them in the first wave is that since they are independent operators from Initiative/SHIELD proper pissing them off might work to the Skrulls advantage as they try to take everybody down. There's also the issue that they might not have perfect intel on that since it's a different division than SHIELD/Initiative answering to the CSA, so they might incorrectly be gauging their power level.
And it make absolutely no sense for them to try to do the here's the real deal thing with the 70's rendition of Iron Man. I mean, if the current Tony WAS a Skrull wouldn't they ALREADY be owning the world? It's like you took all this time to impersonate the President with a Skrull, then you assassinate that Skrull, and get another Skrull.... to impersonate the President... Uh huh.
I suppose the point was just to get them out of the way for the event, so people won't go around wondering where the TBolts are.
Or maybe Ellis has a Secret Invasion tie in, and this was thrown out there to help it out a bit, I don't know (I don't follow sollicits that closely).
I really don't think of Luke's old costume as tacky. I think what he wears now is down right ugly though.
Taking out the Thunderbolts makes sense because as Bendis said they are black opps. Meaning if the Skrulls take over a city and enslave the population then the Thunderbolts would have no trouble nuking it and civillain population be damned. It's far easier to face an enemy with a few morals then one without.
Mark_S
Personally, I think the human race has more to fear from the TBolts with nukes than they do the skrulls.
One more reason to root for the Skrulls I guess.
Magneto Rocks
04-03-2008, 10:35 AM
Hmm... so Bendis basically admits Tony was on the right track, hence why he had to be taken out. Good to know. Seriously though, all of these targets made sense to me to some degree, though I question the wisdom of creating new wildcards- freeing Doctor Doom, for example, does not seem like the world's greatest idea.
Red Lotus
04-03-2008, 10:35 AM
I honestly have doubts Spider-Woman is a skrull. If she were, Bendis probably wouldn't have had her convininetly whip out some brand new power out of the blue like that... he even had Black Widow grilling her over it. I don't think he'd give that obvious a clue. Plus, Bendis is doing a Spider Woman series down the line... I think people with their own solo on-going books really shouldn't be suspects. I think it's more likely she's a red herring to detract the attention away from other possible skrulls. I think the REAL clues were really in the thought bubbles, and the rest is just largely misdirection.
Some people with their own solo books should be perfect supects. If the books isn't that great this could be the perfect point to start over. With Spider-woman some thing like this would be a prefect place to start from.
Wild Card13
04-03-2008, 10:38 AM
There also pretty a non-threat see as how they get owned like it was no ones business. Venom (or as Songbird called him "that guy who Spider-Man beats up every other month") is a threat to the Skrulls? Oh please. Why don't they take down Paste-Pot-Pete while they are at it....
The symbiote is a very dangerous creature. Just because it's bonded to a succession of stupid hosts doesn't make it any less dangerous. The Skrulls know what symbiotes are capable of, and perhaps it's a particularly potent threat to Skrull physiology. I can completely understand why they'd worry about Venom.
Going after the Thunderbolts makes enough sense that I won't bicker about it... but you're right it doesn't make that much sense at all. The only good idea that I can say for prioritizing them in the first wave is that since they are independent operators from Initiative/SHIELD proper pissing them off might work to the Skrulls advantage as they try to take everybody down. There's also the issue that they might not have perfect intel on that since it's a different division than SHIELD/Initiative answering to the CSA, so they might incorrectly be gauging their power level.
I agree with Bendis on this one. Black ops teams are generally made up of some of the best at what they do. My guess is they're probably the only team that the Skrulls have failed to infiltrate, because they spend so much time off the radar. Why wouldn't the Skrulls want that off the table?
And it make absolutely no sense for them to try to do the here's the real deal thing with the 70's rendition of Iron Man. I mean, if the current Tony WAS a Skrull wouldn't they ALREADY be owning the world? It's like you took all this time to impersonate the President with a Skrull, then you assassinate that Skrull, and get another Skrull.... to impersonate the President... Uh huh.
You're thinking objectively, instead of thinking from their point of view. Obviously, the ship Tony is a Skrull, for the very reasons you outlined. However, remember that the characters' perspective isn't so omniscient. To them, Tony' s been acting very strangely lately, and has been on a mad power trip. For all they know, it's because the Tony they've been dealing with is a Skrull impostor trying to make the invasion easier for them. This is all about misdirection, and it's working beautifully.
Some people with their own solo books should be perfect supects. If the books isn't that great this could be the perfect point to start over. With Spider-woman some thing like this would be a prefect place to start from.
Maybe.
Prior to Bendis using her in NA, she was a depowered former superhero that was now acting as a detective. It's a formula that Bendis used pretty well in Alias, so I suppose it's a possibility.
Monty_Cristo
04-03-2008, 10:44 AM
I agree with Bendis on this one. Black ops teams are generally made up of some of the best at what they do. My guess is they're probably the only team that the Skrulls have failed to infiltrate, because they spend so much time off the radar. Why wouldn't the Skrulls want that off the table?
.
why not just use the nanochains? the t-bolts are easily dealt with. an explosion just leaves the chance for one of them getting out.
You're thinking objectively, instead of thinking from their point of view. Obviously, the ship Tony is a Skrull, for the very reasons you outlined. However, remember that the characters' perspective isn't so omniscient. To them, Tony' s been acting very strangely lately, and has been on a mad power trip. For all they know, it's because the Tony they've been dealing with is a Skrull impostor trying to make the invasion easier for them. This is all about misdirection, and it's working beautifully.
who says it's Tony? the ship version could be Jim Rhodes.
Wild Card13
04-03-2008, 10:45 AM
why not just use the nanochains? the t-bolts are easily dealt with. an explosion just leaves the chance for one of them getting out.
Weren't those disabled recently?
Hmm... so Bendis basically admits Tony was on the right track, hence why he had to be taken out. Good to know. Seriously though, all of these targets made sense to me to some degree, though I question the wisdom of creating new wildcards- freeing Doctor Doom, for example, does not seem like the world's greatest idea.
Tony was SORT OF on the right track.
I think this is where Bendis steals from Battlestar Galatica a second time. The Cylons wipe out their defenses in the first episodes because it was all centralized... which made them vulnerable. Same thing with Tony. If earth's first line of defense is completely tied to Stark, then taking down earth's first line of defense is done by simply taking out Stark. For a guy that was compromised right before and after Civil War, in addition to now, you can fast see the potential problems with that.
Hopefully this will be a good learning experience for Stark. In a way it's selfess to place this big bullseye on you.. but you're also making things a whole lot simpler for the badguys. You pull out that one card, and the entire things topples.
As for the prison break... I can understand the logic to an extent. It is a great distraction, and it forces the heroes to fight a war on multiple fronts. But Doom particular does seem like a mistake. He has the potential to work with the heroes, and to even unite the villains against a common threat (as most art too stupid to realize that it's more important to stop the earth from being conquered than it is to rob banks while the heroes are busy). I almost wonder why Bendis even bothers throwing Doom in jail if he only sticks around for like a week.
Monty_Cristo
04-03-2008, 10:57 AM
Weren't those disabled recently?
no, they weren't.
Red Lotus
04-03-2008, 10:59 AM
Hmm... so Bendis basically admits Tony was on the right track, hence why he had to be taken out. Good to know. Seriously though, all of these targets made sense to me to some degree, though I question the wisdom of creating new wildcards- freeing Doctor Doom, for example, does not seem like the world's greatest idea.
I have to agree. The bad guys might hate the good guys, but who is to say they dont hate the Skrulls more. So there better be some Skrulls who were in jail and they needed to free them.
I almost wonder why Bendis even bothers throwing Doom in jail if he only sticks around for like a week.
I'm going to blame the delays here. Maybe SI wasn''t going to start right after Doom went to jail. With the crazy time line this might be 3 weeks later.
Brian M.
04-03-2008, 11:03 AM
This stuff about Bendis STEALING from BSG is hilarious.
It's freaking tactics 101.
Jake V
04-03-2008, 11:07 AM
I think this is where Bendis steals from Battlestar Galatica a second time. The Cylons wipe out their defenses in the first episodes because it was all centralized... which made them vulnerable. Same thing with Tony. If earth's first line of defense is completely tied to Stark, then taking down earth's first line of defense is done by simply taking out Stark. For a guy that was compromised right before and after Civil War, in addition to now, you can fast see the potential problems with that.
I dont think Battlestar Galactica has the exclusive rights to the "eliminating your enemies defenses" idea.
As for the prison break... I can understand the logic to an extent. It is a great distraction, and it forces the heroes to fight a war on multiple fronts. But Doom particular does seem like a mistake. He has the potential to work with the heroes, and to even unite the villains against a common threat (as most art too stupid to realize that it's more important to stop the earth from being conquered than it is to rob banks while the heroes are busy). I almost wonder why Bendis even bothers throwing Doom in jail if he only sticks around for like a week.
It was so the Mighty Avengers could have a definite win in that story.
I'm sure the Joker has shorter stints in Arkham Asylum.
gorthon616
04-03-2008, 11:30 AM
The symbiote is a very dangerous creature. Just because it's bonded to a succession of stupid hosts doesn't make it any less dangerous. The Skrulls know what symbiotes are capable of, and perhaps it's a particularly potent threat to Skrull physiology. I can completely understand why they'd worry about Venom.
But what you said means you don't understand ('cause like you said, you don't know they might have secret knowledge). It just means that you're willing to take their word for it. How could you "understand" the reasoning behind their actions when you are submitting that they are acting for reasons that you have no knowledge of nor any reason to independently support it?
The fact is Bendis didn't even imply any secret knowledge. Just that they find Venom to be "scary" and their team to be "formidable." And there is really no evidence of either fact (relative to a Skrull invasion).
I agree with Bendis on this one. Black ops teams are generally made up of some of the best at what they do. My guess is they're probably the only team that the Skrulls have failed to infiltrate, because they spend so much time off the radar. Why wouldn't the Skrulls want that off the table?
Well I agree on this one. Though I wouldn't say they are "black ops." Bullseye is the only one that counts for that. But they are under CSA (I believe) so maybe they haven't infiltrated them which I could buy as a "why not" sort of option. Like I said, there are enough justifications for me to buy it, but the rationale is hardly the shining moment of the story.
You're thinking objectively, instead of thinking from their point of view. Obviously, the ship Tony is a Skrull, for the very reasons you outlined. However, remember that the characters' perspective isn't so omniscient. To them, Tony' s been acting very strangely lately, and has been on a mad power trip. For all they know, it's because the Tony they've been dealing with is a Skrull impostor trying to make the invasion easier for them. This is all about misdirection, and it's working beautifully.
The characters aren't omnipotent, but they are fully aware of the position of power Tony is in. When I said isn't based off of knowledge characters aren't aware of, it's based on things that they would know, probably know better than me.
Magneto Rocks
04-03-2008, 11:41 AM
Tony was SORT OF on the right track.
I think this is where Bendis steals from Battlestar Galatica a second time. The Cylons wipe out their defenses in the first episodes because it was all centralized... which made them vulnerable. Same thing with Tony. If earth's first line of defense is completely tied to Stark, then taking down earth's first line of defense is done by simply taking out Stark. For a guy that was compromised right before and after Civil War, in addition to now, you can fast see the potential problems with that.
Hopefully this will be a good learning experience for Stark. In a way it's selfess to place this big bullseye on you.. but you're also making things a whole lot simpler for the badguys. You pull out that one card, and the entire things topples.
I found it interesting because we recently had a debate on this very board about who- Luke Cage or Tony- was being more useful in the face of the invasion, and you argued Tony's paranoia would hurt the Earth's heroes in the end and Cage wasn't that bad. Gotta say, I think this issue proved the OPPOSITE. Cage's paranoia and refusal to talk things through triggered the Skrull's plan and helped cause the crippling of the hero community, and of Tony's strategy, Bendis himself said "He was right to believe that he could, and was coming at it from the right place". So I think this resolves that.
As for the prison break... I can understand the logic to an extent. It is a great distraction, and it forces the heroes to fight a war on multiple fronts. But Doom particular does seem like a mistake. He has the potential to work with the heroes, and to even unite the villains against a common threat (as most art too stupid to realize that it's more important to stop the earth from being conquered than it is to rob banks while the heroes are busy)
Agreed. Only a Doom or a Magneto could unite them in these circumstances, and setting Doom lose to do it seems a very poor decision. On the other hand, he doesn't have armour or Latveria right now so he's not AS MUCH of a threat as he has been... but being Doom, he's still a pretty damn colossal threat.
Mark_S
04-03-2008, 11:42 AM
Tony was SORT OF on the right track.
I think this is where Bendis steals from Battlestar Galatica a second time. The Cylons wipe out their defenses in the first episodes because it was all centralized... which made them vulnerable. Same thing with Tony. If earth's first line of defense is completely tied to Stark, then taking down earth's first line of defense is done by simply taking out Stark. For a guy that was compromised right before and after Civil War, in addition to now, you can fast see the potential problems with that.
Hopefully this will be a good learning experience for Stark. In a way it's selfess to place this big bullseye on you.. but you're also making things a whole lot simpler for the badguys. You pull out that one card, and the entire things topples.
As for the prison break... I can understand the logic to an extent. It is a great distraction, and it forces the heroes to fight a war on multiple fronts. But Doom particular does seem like a mistake. He has the potential to work with the heroes, and to even unite the villains against a common threat (as most art too stupid to realize that it's more important to stop the earth from being conquered than it is to rob banks while the heroes are busy). I almost wonder why Bendis even bothers throwing Doom in jail if he only sticks around for like a week.
"In confusion there is profit." As a wise man once said. Now that the villains are running around again and the heros are being eliminated who will save mankind from the villains? After all this is the same public that cheered the pro-sra side in cw when they went after a supposed threat, they are dumb enough I think to cheer the skrulls as they kill-not just imprison-the supervillains. And while the villains may unite sooner or later against the skrulls most of them will not care one way or the other. If as I mentioned in another thread the anti-sra heros have zero reason to fight for humanity the supervillains have even less reason than that to fight. Would the Kingpin deal with a skrull police force any differently than a human one? The brothels in Paris barely noticed it when the German's came in world war 2. The smarter supervillains, the Wizard, the Mad Thinker and of course Doom will figure out that it's smart to fight back, but of them all only Doom has the name power to bring the lesser villains together, and the MA made sure that he was neutralized. It will take time now that he is out (that is if they let him run free, if I were the skrulls I'd have agents ready to hit Doom the minute he stepped out of his cell) for him to get back to Latveria or anywhere.
As to the Iron Man from the ship; Luke is already set to believe that the Tony they have been dealing with is a skrull, as I think are a lot of the renegades. CW destroyed trust in the mu and the skrulls are taking advantage of that. The idea that the man who betrayed and hunted you down is an imposter must be attractive to the NA.
Mark_S
joemagnum611
04-03-2008, 12:24 PM
Weren't those disabled recently?
I thought they were too by reading what's going on in T-Bolts right now w/Venom and Swordsman running wild. They could be stopped by using the nanbots.
BGRED37
04-03-2008, 12:37 PM
It kinda woulda been cool if Black Bolt was with the 70's heroes?
That would answer at least one question.
I really hope SW isn't a Skrull. I really like how much development went into her character since NA started. Maybe Jess knew the plane would crash from Nick Fury and wanted everyone together when it all went down?
b_sinning
04-03-2008, 12:44 PM
Doom knows how to create an army due to his interaction with Morgan Le Fay. I wonder if that comes back into play.
Iron_Stark
04-03-2008, 12:59 PM
I found it interesting because we recently had a debate on this very board about who- Luke Cage or Tony- was being more useful in the face of the invasion, and you argued Tony's paranoia would hurt the Earth's heroes in the end and Cage wasn't that bad. Gotta say, I think this issue proved the OPPOSITE. Cage's paranoia and refusal to talk things through triggered the Skrull's plan and helped cause the crippling of the hero community, and of Tony's strategy, Bendis himself said "He was right to believe that he could, and was coming at it from the right place". So I think this resolves that.
People actually think Luke Cage is usefull? LMAO! He's useless, he's no leader, he can't take control of his own family much less of superheroes who're constantly getting thier asses kicked by ninjas and C-level villains.
Yeah I'd want Luke Cage leading me duing an alien invasion.
He's nothing more than a useless paranoid tool.
Sanctus
04-03-2008, 01:17 PM
People actually think Luke Cage is usefull? LMAO! He's useless, he's no leader, he can't take control of his own family much less of superheroes who're constantly getting thier asses kicked by ninjas and C-level villains.
Yeah I'd want Luke Cage leading me duing an alien invasion.
He's nothing more than a useless paranoid tool.
Or
he is an alternative voice whose actions led to the first discover (barring Fury) of the Skrulls.
He has also shown that he does not need SHIELD, SWORD or the other crutched Iron Man relies on to run his team. That might/should come in handy now that the Skrulls have basically peeled Tony's "defenses" like a banana.
Magneto Rocks
04-03-2008, 01:29 PM
Or
he is an alternative voice whose actions led to the first discover (barring Fury) of the Skrulls.
Yes, what phenomenal actions indeed. What did he do again? Follow a disteess call from Maya because they were the only ones to get it? Anyone could have done that, it was hardly a fit of genius or inspiration.
He has also shown that he does not need SHIELD, SWORD or the other crutched Iron Man relies on to run his team. That might/should come in handy now that the Skrulls have basically peeled Tony's "defenses" like a banana.
He certainly doesn't, possibly because his team does not get "run". Almost anything useful it did was done by Doctor Strange, almost always without asking Cage, whose leadership has effectively consisted of "There's a bad guy there? Let's fight him," and "Ah, Wolverine, you did something useful to advance the plot- good, let's go fight people." With a healthy dose of paranoid moaning in between.
And again, the Skrulls peeled Tony's defences- that's bad. But it's still better than Luke Cage UNLEASHING their master plan!
Mark_S
04-03-2008, 02:01 PM
Yes, what phenomenal actions indeed. What did he do again? Follow a disteess call from Maya because they were the only ones to get it? Anyone could have done that, it was hardly a fit of genius or inspiration.
He certainly doesn't, possibly because his team does not get "run". Almost anything useful it did was done by Doctor Strange, almost always without asking Cage, whose leadership has effectively consisted of "There's a bad guy there? Let's fight him," and "Ah, Wolverine, you did something useful to advance the plot- good, let's go fight people." With a healthy dose of paranoid moaning in between.
And again, the Skrulls peeled Tony's defences- that's bad. But it's still better than Luke Cage UNLEASHING their master plan!
Do you think that Tony wouldn't have opened that ship? That it wouldn't have been shielded from his scans? That he could have stopped Ares from opening it?
In terms of power and intelligence Tony out does Luke, no question there. In terms of integrity and honor Tony doesn't out do anyone and is trusted by perhaps ten people on the planet. Frankly I wouldn't want either of them in charge, Luke for the reasons you have given and and Tony for the reaons that were revealed in this issue. Tony and Tony alone took on the weight of Earth's defenses. Tony's tech built SHIELD, SWORD, the sattelites, the Cape Killers... it's all Tony and thus the skrulls have one giant target to hit and a lot of little targets to mop up afterwards. Tony made himself the Marginault Line of Earth.
But I am not blaming this on Tony as I did his actions in cw. Depsite the (in my opinion) cynical, amoral and arogant pragmatic nature of the guy he does love Earth and would put his live on the line for it. He may have made himself the biggest target but the NA weren't very effective either. All in all everything that has happened since cw has played right into the skrulls hands.
Mark_S
Monty_Cristo
04-03-2008, 02:15 PM
"In confusion there is profit." As a wise man once said. Now that the villains are running around again and the heros are being eliminated who will save mankind from the villains? After all this is the same public that cheered the pro-sra side in cw when they went after a supposed threat, they are dumb enough I think to cheer the skrulls as they kill-not just imprison-the supervillains. And while the villains may unite sooner or later against the skrulls most of them will not care one way or the other. If as I mentioned in another thread the anti-sra heros have zero reason to fight for humanity the supervillains have even less reason than that to fight. Would the Kingpin deal with a skrull police force any differently than a human one? The brothels in Paris barely noticed it when the German's came in world war 2. The smarter supervillains, the Wizard, the Mad Thinker and of course Doom will figure out that it's smart to fight back, but of them all only Doom has the name power to bring the lesser villains together,
really? it seems like they all fell in line behind some complete no0b called the Hood.
Yes, what phenomenal actions indeed. What did he do again? Follow a disteess call from Maya because they were the only ones to get it? Anyone could have done that, it was hardly a fit of genius or inspiration.
plus, he sat on the information. it was Spider-woman who shared it. imagine if Luke hadn't waited.
Monty_Cristo
04-03-2008, 02:18 PM
This stuff about Bendis STEALING from BSG is hilarious.
It's freaking tactics 101.
i'm not laughing. and there are people saying that this story is brilliant. that makes it even more deplorable. he's a plagiarist.
Camron Amaya
04-03-2008, 02:28 PM
People actually think Luke Cage is usefull? LMAO! He's useless, he's no leader, he can't take control of his own family much less of superheroes who're constantly getting thier asses kicked by ninjas and C-level villains.
Yeah I'd want Luke Cage leading me duing an alien invasion.
He's nothing more than a useless paranoid tool.
Lol Might I ask where this intense personal hatred for a fictional character comes from? You seem to be ridiculing EVERY SINGLE aspect of the characters life. His ever move.
And honestly....majority of people don't give a s**t about Battle Star Galactica.
mikekerr3
04-03-2008, 02:31 PM
People actually think Luke Cage is usefull? LMAO! He's useless, he's no leader, he can't take control of his own family much less of superheroes who're constantly getting thier asses kicked by ninjas and C-level villains.
Yeah I'd want Luke Cage leading me duing an alien invasion.
He's nothing more than a useless paranoid tool.
Only a fool or a bully thinks he controls his wife/family. At least unlike Tony Stark he will not betray is comrades when the political winds dictate.
Magneto Rocks
04-03-2008, 02:33 PM
Only a fool or a bully thinks he controls his wife/family. At least unlike Tony Stark he will not betray is comrades when the political winds dictate.
Naa, he instead opts for betraying his wife and child when politicl winds dictate.
Mark_S
04-03-2008, 02:35 PM
really? it seems like they all fell in line behind some complete no0b called the Hood.
True, but in that case there were long standing grudges that the Hood could play too. I don't think that any of the supervillains have anything against the skrulls.
Mark_S
Camron Amaya
04-03-2008, 02:36 PM
Naa, he instead opts for betraying his wife and child when politicl winds dictate.
How did he betray his wife?
Mark_S
04-03-2008, 02:36 PM
Lol Might I ask where this intense personal hatred for a fictional character comes from? You seem to be ridiculing EVERY SINGLE aspect of the characters life. His ever move.
And honestly....majority of people don't give a s**t about Battle Star Galactica.
I think if some of us can hate Iron Man then others should be allowed to hate other characters. It's only fair.
Mark_S
b_sinning
04-03-2008, 02:36 PM
Except the skrulls want to kill all humans.
Mark_S
04-03-2008, 02:37 PM
Except the skrulls want to kill all humans.
everyone needs a hobby. :)
Mark_S
CMBMOOL
04-03-2008, 02:53 PM
I must say that the Skrulls played it smart this time, and this is only the first issue of the event.
I have always thought that due to Tony's new status quo, is that he is setting himself up for a BIG fall....
I would be surprise if Secret Invasion will be that fall and that it would shows us how much this will cost him....
Just like Civil War cost him Cap's death and the trust of his peers and World War hulk and Thor's return cost him the trust of two of the most powerful men in the Marvel U.
b_sinning
04-03-2008, 03:03 PM
It makes sense that the Skrulls aided in the Stamford screwup and the conditions that led to the Civil War to not only split the heroes up but to put Stark in a position where he takes over most of their opposition so they only have to take out one person instead of a group of people.
CyberCoyote
04-03-2008, 03:03 PM
I must say that the Skrulls played it smart this time, and this is only the first issue of the event.
I have always thought that due to Tony's new status quo, is that he is setting himself up for a BIG fall....
I would be surprise if Secret Invasion will be that fall and that it would shows us how much this will cost him....
Just like Civil War cost him Cap's death and the trust of his peers and World War hulk and Thor's return cost him the trust of two of the most powerful men in the Marvel U.
Agreed, it's nice to see him knocked off his Iron Mantle. I'm sure that's been the plan all along, but hopefully at the end of this thing (he has to live, he's got a Movie coming out for God's Sake!) he'll swallow his pride and be a major part of the solution.
mikekerr3
04-03-2008, 03:10 PM
Naa, he instead opts for betraying his wife and child when politicl winds dictate.
His wife left him to make the kid safer. Of course going to ground Zero of any future attack isn't too bright.
How did he betray anyone, that would be an outrage thats Tony's job.:D
StoneGold
04-03-2008, 03:15 PM
Here's a thought. Spider-Woman isn't a Skrull.
She's the Kree.
Mark_S
04-03-2008, 03:16 PM
His wife left him to make the kid safer. Of course going to ground Zero of any future attack isn't too bright.
How did he betray anyone, that would be an outrage thats Tony's job.:D
You gotta wonder, if Jessica isn't a skrull, how she's going to feel about her decision when she realizes that she's brought her child closerto the skrulls.
Mark_S
Slyfer
04-03-2008, 03:22 PM
OH MY GOD!! AM I the only one wondering what happened to the Hellicarrier over NEWYORK is it, what about the people below in the streets ??? That's really scary, how many times since last month did the Hellicarrier fall out of the sky , 3 times :confused: . Bendis you EVIL SICK GENIUS LOL
Iron_Stark
04-03-2008, 03:30 PM
Lol Might I ask where this intense personal hatred for a fictional character comes from? You seem to be ridiculing EVERY SINGLE aspect of the characters life. His ever move.
And honestly....majority of people don't give a s**t about Battle Star Galactica.
Because he's a waste of a character, he's bland "ooooo I have super tough skin can lift heavy things and talk a lot of sh**", he's can't properly lead a team, he puts his own well being before his wife and child. And he doesn't have a costume, tee-shirt and jeans with some bling, how original.
Oh what, people can sh** on Tony the fictional character Stark on a daily basis, but I can't sh** on another fictional character?
Battle Star Galactica?? When did I ever bring that up?
I think if some of us can hate Iron Man then others should be allowed to hate other characters. It's only fair.
Mark_S.
For once I agree with you.
Mark_S
04-03-2008, 03:36 PM
OH MY GOD!! AM I the only one wondering what happened to the Hellicarrier over NEWYORK is it, what about the people below in the streets ??? That's really scary, how many times since last month did the Hellicarrier fall out of the sky , 3 times :confused: . Bendis you EVIL SICK GENIUS LOL
Well lets face it after the first two times the people are probably used to it.
Mark_S
Kirk G
04-03-2008, 03:39 PM
She talked openly about betraying stark by calling the NA's (or Secret Avengers as they go back to being called in this issue) in front of Tony Starks highly skrully and loyal butler. The only way that scene makes sense is if Jarvis is a skrull and Spider-Woman is a skrull. It's the only way she'd talk like that in front of him.
There's another possibility...and that is that either Jarvis wasn't a skrull but an automatron or LMD or otherwise... (but I'm betting that it's a skrull)....
Which leads me to another point... that Drew is human, and didn't know that Jarvis was a skrull... but that he, Jarvis, has been sympthatic to BOTH sides of the Civil War split... and that he wouldn't betray Drew making a phone call... especially if he couldn't tell who she was speaking to.
But, time will tell...:eek:
Magneto Rocks
04-03-2008, 03:42 PM
I have always thought that due to Tony's new status quo, is that he is setting himself up for a BIG fall....
I would be surprise if Secret Invasion will be that fall and that it would shows us how much this will cost him....
I would be, since Bendis just basically said Tony's had the exact right approach when it comes to Skrulls and that's why he's a huge target.
You gotta wonder, if Jessica isn't a skrull, how she's going to feel about her decision when she realizes that she's brought her child closerto the skrulls.
Considering the giant old "Strange's Mansion: INFILTRATED" thing in the Secret Invasion Webisode, I wouldn't go saying the child is less safe now *just* yet. Equally safe, maybe.
Oh and incidentally, I am willing to admit Stark could have stopped this whole invasion much earlier. How? By simply giving the damn body to Reed at the Illuminati meeting instead of waiting a month then giving it to him and Hank. The result would probably have been that they would have known the truth of how the Skrulls are infiltrating far, far sooner.
Of course, it's as much Reed's fault as Tony's, and it actually makes NO sense from either character since it's just a Bendis plot hole, but there you go. ;)
TotalWorldDomination
04-03-2008, 03:43 PM
There's another possibility...and that is that either Jarvis wasn't a skrull but an automatron or LMD or otherwise... (but I'm betting that it's a skrull)....
Which leads me to another point... that Drew is human, and didn't know that Jarvis was a skrull... but that he, Jarvis, has been sympthatic to BOTH sides of the Civil War split... and that he wouldn't betray Drew making a phone call... especially if he couldn't tell who she was speaking to.
But, time will tell...:eek:
Jarvis was sympathtic to the Anti-Reg side??? Where is this?! I have the strangest feeling that if Jarvis overheard anyone speaking ill of Master Tony he'd have to tell him. Spider-Woman did just stab tony in the back with that phone-call, and Jarvis would be honor bound to tell his master. Jessica Drew has to know that.
Another point that makes Jess Skrully. She took the skrull to tony because she trusted him more then the NA's. Now she trusts the NA's more then tony? Skrully if you ask me.
I found it interesting because we recently had a debate on this very board about who- Luke Cage or Tony- was being more useful in the face of the invasion, and you argued Tony's paranoia would hurt the Earth's heroes in the end and Cage wasn't that bad. Gotta say, I think this issue proved the OPPOSITE. Cage's paranoia and refusal to talk things through triggered the Skrull's plan and helped cause the crippling of the hero community, and of Tony's strategy, Bendis himself said "He was right to believe that he could, and was coming at it from the right place". So I think this resolves that.
Agreed. Only a Doom or a Magneto could unite them in these circumstances, and setting Doom lose to do it seems a very poor decision. On the other hand, he doesn't have armour or Latveria right now so he's not AS MUCH of a threat as he has been... but being Doom, he's still a pretty damn colossal threat.
I don't think it's fair to argue that the crippling of the hero community was Cages fault.
It was Tony that basically networked all his tech to the point where it could be wiped out in a single shot. And it was Tony's buttler that did it. Cage's actions really aren't the cause of much. All he did was try to see what's in that ship. It was really Starks control thing which created an easy inroad for the Skrulls to cripple earths defenses in one foul swoop. Laying that on Cage is a bit of a stretch.
People actually think Luke Cage is usefull? LMAO! He's useless, he's no leader, he can't take control of his own family much less of superheroes who're constantly getting thier asses kicked by ninjas and C-level villains.
Yeah I'd want Luke Cage leading me duing an alien invasion.
He's nothing more than a useless paranoid tool.
Actually, his team beat the ninjas and the C level villains (who colletively were actually quite powerful).
Monty_Cristo
04-03-2008, 03:55 PM
I don't think it's fair to argue that the crippling of the hero community was Cages fault.
It was Tony that basically networked all his tech to the point where it could be wiped out in a single shot. And it was Tony's buttler that did it.
really, Tony's butler did all that? i thought it was a skrull.
Monty_Cristo
04-03-2008, 03:58 PM
True, but in that case there were long standing grudges that the Hood could play too. I don't think that any of the supervillains have anything against the skrulls.
Mark_S
they don't have anything against the skrulls replacing them? because some of the Hood's recruits are skrulls.
MRGRAY
04-03-2008, 04:00 PM
First off, I thought Cage's baby was a Skull how is it in Harms way? Jessica can so be a Skull, think about it all of Earth's heavy hitters are in one place isolated from the rest of the world with a ship full of Skrulls (coincidence I think not). And I don't think stark taking the body to the Illuminati early would have solved any thing. The last meeting of the illuminati had Black Bolt turn out to be Skrull and now Hank Pym has turned out to be a Skrull.
I just hope that this Invasion makes up for the crap of the civil war (personnel opinion, sorry its the way I feel)
And again, the Skrulls peeled Tony's defences- that's bad. But it's still better than Luke Cage UNLEASHING their master plan!
To blame Cage for unleashing the skrulls master plan is a bit much. If Cage didn't try opening the ship, someone else would have. And in all likelihood the people inside of the ship sooner or later would try to get out of it.
To argue that none of this would be happening had Cage not tried to pull on a door is kinda silly.
Do you imagine that had he not done that, the skrulls would have just gave up and gone home? All because Cage didn't pull on a door?
really, Tony's butler did all that? i thought it was a skrull.
The Skrull was acting as Tony's buttler at the time.
Monty_Cristo
04-03-2008, 04:05 PM
The Skrull was acting as Tony's buttler at the time.
exactly how does that lead to Tony Stark being responsible?
I would be, since Bendis just basically said Tony's had the exact right approach when it comes to Skrulls and that's why he's a huge target.
Considering the giant old "Strange's Mansion: INFILTRATED" thing in the Secret Invasion Webisode, I wouldn't go saying the child is less safe now *just* yet. Equally safe, maybe.
Oh and incidentally, I am willing to admit Stark could have stopped this whole invasion much earlier. How? By simply giving the damn body to Reed at the Illuminati meeting instead of waiting a month then giving it to him and Hank. The result would probably have been that they would have known the truth of how the Skrulls are infiltrating far, far sooner.
Of course, it's as much Reed's fault as Tony's, and it actually makes NO sense from either character since it's just a Bendis plot hole, but there you go. ;)
Again, I'd argue Tony approach was only partly right. The skrulls used Tony to disable earth's first line of defense... his approach didn't end up working.
As for bringing the Skrull to Reed... yeah, that did end up simplifying things. Tony had it for days and likely couldn't do anything with it (though perhaps he was too busy to really give it as much effort as he should have). Reed solved the whole thing in one sitting.
I suppose this is also potentially skrully behavior for Spider-Woman. It really would have made more sense to give the body to Reed than Tony for multiple reasons (he's safer, more trustworthy, and a skrull expert who is flat out smarter). Maybe giving the Skrull to Tony is part of some agenda to mess with him or something.
Camron Amaya
04-03-2008, 04:08 PM
The Sentry twice wanted to "fly Tony away" when he was having his seizure...
Kind of convinient! Take him straight to the Skrulls and Tony is done! With no one the wiser!
:eek:
TotalWorldDomination
04-03-2008, 04:10 PM
To blame Cage for unleashing the skrulls master plan is a bit much. If Cage didn't try opening the ship, someone else would have. And in all likelihood the people inside of the ship sooner or later would try to get out of it.
To argue that none of this would be happening had Cage not tried to pull on a door is kinda silly.
Do you imagine that had he not done that, the skrulls would have just gave up and gone home? All because Cage didn't pull on a door?
No, but the results would have been more preditable. The whole thing was triggered by luke pulling the door open. the light above the door turns green, everyone knows the signal to start. Had Luke just held his horses, tony grabs the ship and sends it to a stark research lab. They arrive back in time to find reed. Tony rebuilds his resarch, finds out it's a ship full of skrulls.
Or the whole thing could blow up if they tried to move it. You never know. Point is, luke did the single stupidest headstrong thing possible. Then again that's his MO. Or he's a skrull. I hope it's the latter.
Monty_Cristo
04-03-2008, 04:10 PM
The Sentry twice wanted to "fly Tony away" when he was having his seizure...
Kind of convinient! Take him straight to the Skrulls and Tony is done! With no one the wiser!
:eek:
well he could have put his glowing hands on tony and saved him like he did his wife.
exactly how does that lead to Tony Stark being responsible?
He's not... at least not directly. What I'm saying is that Tony really made it easy for the skrulls to cripple SHIELD. But that doesn't mean he's actually responsible.
Dr. Chaos
04-03-2008, 04:11 PM
That ship was going to open up whether anyone wanted it to or not, I doubt the skrulls were stupid enough to install a door that couldn't be opened from the inside but maybe thats just me.
Cage didn't really do anything absurd this ish (and yes, I'm including taking one of Tony's precious toys), if there was something threatening in there, facing it head on or bombing it straight to hell was the best course of action, not politely taking it into SHIELD Custody so it can kill something in a populated area after being the umpteenth person to escape from their helicarrier.
No, but the results would have been more preditable. The whole thing was triggered by luke pulling the door open. the light above the door turns green, everyone knows the signal to start. Had Luke just held his horses, tony grabs the ship and sends it to a stark research lab. They arrive back in time to find reed. Tony rebuilds his resarch, finds out it's a ship full of skrulls.
Or the whole thing could blow up if they tried to move it. You never know. Point is, luke did the single stupidest headstrong thing possible. Then again that's his MO. Or he's a skrull. I hope it's the latter.
You don't think the skrulls, who were watching, would have triggered the attack before Stark had a chance to do that? Or the people inside of the ship wouldn't have tried getting out of it long before starts dissecting the thing?
I guess I'm just more skeptical that had Cage not pulled on the door, the Skrulls wouldn't have done anything. Duggan and the Sue Richards skrull were already in place long before Cage started pulling on any doors... this all likely would have happened regardless.
TotalWorldDomination
04-03-2008, 04:16 PM
He's not... at least not directly. What I'm saying is that Tony really made it easy for the skrulls to cripple SHIELD. But that doesn't mean he's actually responsible.
I wouldn't say he made it easy. SHIELD units were hardwired to eachother with or without stark. Amadeus Cho pulls a similar trick without affecting any stark-made system, implying that there is no direct link other then through the satilites. If Stark had not been linked to everything the same thing would have been possible, except Jarvis AND Dum-Dum would have had to do it at the same time rather then just Jarvis.
And lets remember that now that Tony's involved if they can get him up and running he can use extremis to re-assert control. IF he can get back up again. I have a sinking feeling this is going to be the Cage-Carol-Jessica show for a good while.
Mark_S
04-03-2008, 04:17 PM
they don't have anything against the skrulls replacing them? because some of the Hood's recruits are skrulls.
Supervillains operate on a proffitt/revenge motive. Some might not like being replaced, but after they are replaced the others won't mind much. At least for the most part. Do you think it really matters to someone like the Wrecker or Whiplash who they fight with?
Mark_S
Dr. Chaos
04-03-2008, 04:18 PM
I guess I'm just more skeptical that had Cage not pulled on the door, the Skrulls wouldn't have done anything. Duggan and the Sue Richards skrull were already in place long before Cage started pulling on any doors... this all likely would have happened regardless.
Well, I'm sure thats Cage's fault somehow too.
Luke Blinking twice probably gave the Sue skrull an idea.
dabig2
04-03-2008, 04:18 PM
No, but the results would have been more preditable. The whole thing was triggered by luke pulling the door open. the light above the door turns green, everyone knows the signal to start. Had Luke just held his horses, tony grabs the ship and sends it to a stark research lab. They arrive back in time to find reed. Tony rebuilds his resarch, finds out it's a ship full of skrulls.
Or the whole thing could blow up if they tried to move it. You never know. Point is, luke did the single stupidest headstrong thing possible. Then again that's his MO. Or he's a skrull. I hope it's the latter.
Yes, because Dum-Dum Dugan and the whole skrull armada watching what was happening would just allow him to fly the whole thing to his lab. Also, skrull Hank would've held off on getting rid of Mr. Fantastic so he can air out their secrets. Sorry, but what happened at that exact time was going to happen whether that door was pried open or not.
TotalWorldDomination
04-03-2008, 04:19 PM
You don't think the skrulls, who were watching, would have triggered the attack before Stark had a chance to do that? Or the people inside of the ship wouldn't have tried getting out of it long before starts dissecting the thing?
I guess I'm just more skeptical that had Cage not pulled on the door, the Skrulls wouldn't have done anything. Duggan and the Sue Richards skrull were already in place long before Cage started pulling on any doors... this all likely would have happened regardless.
You'd be surprised at what can scrap a plan. At the worst the skrulls go ahead anyway with the plan and the avengers get to concentrate more on "Why is tony having a seizure?" then "Who are those handsome people coming out of the ship?" At best the heroes get to delay the plan a bit.
Scrap that, at worst the opening of that door sets of a nuke that kills everone but the sentry. It was an exceedingly dumb thing to do.
Mark_S
04-03-2008, 04:22 PM
I wouldn't say he made it easy. SHIELD units were hardwired to eachother with or without stark. Amadeus Cho pulls a similar trick without affecting any stark-made system, implying that there is no direct link other then through the satilites. If Stark had not been linked to everything the same thing would have been possible, except Jarvis AND Dum-Dum would have had to do it at the same time rather then just Jarvis.
And lets remember that now that Tony's involved if they can get him up and running he can use extremis to re-assert control. IF he can get back up again. I have a sinking feeling this is going to be the Cage-Carol-Jessica show for a good while.
True, but Cho only hit SHIELD because he only he wanted to hit SHIELD. This virus hit everything and that was made easier because everything was made by Stark's companies and Tony made sure he had access/control to everything.
If as you say this is Cage-Carol-Jessica's show for a while then really, the skrulls are gonna keep winning.
Mark_S
Camron Amaya
04-03-2008, 04:23 PM
Wait wait I'm just now realizing...Strange is nowhere to be found. Maybe I'm forgetting something but where the hell did he go? last time I saw him was New Avengers 37....I think.
TotalWorldDomination
04-03-2008, 04:24 PM
Yes, because Dum-Dum Dugan and the whole skrull armada watching what was happening would just allow him to fly the whole thing to his lab. Also, skrull Hank would've held off on getting rid of Mr. Fantastic so he can air out their secrets. Sorry, but what happened at that exact time was going to happen whether that door was pried open or not.
I beg to differ.
I'll grant you the Hank/Reed scene would happen. That was not connected to this exact moment. But read that scene over again. The Green Light over the doors goes off. Dum-Dum's eyes go green. Jarvis sees it happen and gets the disk out. I'm sure that the door opening was the final signal that the plan was a-go. This was well co-ordinated. The Door opening was the final signal. Without that it's possible the skrulls would have been without a signal to begin operations. Odds are most things would have happened anyway, at some point, but why go do something so foolhearty? I'd say I hope cage realizes the folly of his actions, but he clearly already dose. after all, 70's him walked out of that ship. D'oh.
TotalWorldDomination
04-03-2008, 04:25 PM
Wait wait I'm just now realizing...Strange is nowhere to be found. Maybe I'm forgetting something but where the hell did he go? last time I saw him was New Avengers 37....I think.
NA Annual 2. He quit the team.
You'd be surprised at what can scrap a plan. At the worst the skrulls go ahead anyway with the plan and the avengers get to concentrate more on "Why is tony having a seizure?" then "Who are those handsome people coming out of the ship?" At best the heroes get to delay the plan a bit.
Scrap that, at worst the opening of that door sets of a nuke that kills everone but the sentry. It was an exceedingly dumb thing to do.
So you're working on the assumption that had Cage not tried opening the door, the people in the ship would have simply stayed inside for no real reason whatsoever?
And that assumes that had Cage not tried opening the door, no one else would have tried it either. Again, to me the notion that Cage unleashed the Skrulls plan seems to be overstating things just a bit.
Camron Amaya
04-03-2008, 04:26 PM
NA Annual 2. He quit the team.
Whaaaaaaaaat? Damn, why? I didn't read that.
Beast
04-03-2008, 04:47 PM
Whaaaaaaaaat? Damn, why? I didn't read that.
His hands were still messed up from Hulk crushing them, and he's been drawing on Dark Magics to help the team. So he needed to go away and purge himself of all the dark forces, and relearn things again.
Mark_S
04-03-2008, 04:58 PM
I beg to differ.
I'll grant you the Hank/Reed scene would happen. That was not connected to this exact moment. But read that scene over again. The Green Light over the doors goes off. Dum-Dum's eyes go green. Jarvis sees it happen and gets the disk out. I'm sure that the door opening was the final signal that the plan was a-go. This was well co-ordinated. The Door opening was the final signal. Without that it's possible the skrulls would have been without a signal to begin operations. Odds are most things would have happened anyway, at some point, but why go do something so foolhearty? I'd say I hope cage realizes the folly of his actions, but he clearly already dose. after all, 70's him walked out of that ship. D'oh.
It might have been folly for him to open the door. On the other hand look at it from his point of view. The man he think is a skrull is telling him not to do something. Why? At this point Luke is more than frustrated. He and his team found out about the skrulls and one of the team betrayed them and took the skrull to Tony Stark. And now she stands with that team. Does that mean she's found a way to trust Tony or does that mean that she is a skrull? His team has been working hard catching villains only to have Tony's side let those villains go. Did Tony let those villains go deliberately? Carol and her squad of SHIELD agents only showed up After the Hood's gang was defeated. Now Spiderwoman has tipped him off about the ship. Is she still working for Tony and is this a trap? Did she give Tony enough rope to hang himself with?
There are way to many questions for Luke to handle. There are some things he is sure of though. The skrulls had a hand in cw. Given how brutal the crackdown was and its aftermath in Camp Hammond and the Thunderbolts Luke has a lot of reasons to believe that the skrulls were behind it all. And now the man he believes is behind most if not all of the suffering in cw is telling him not to do something. Luke went with his instincts and opened the door. I don't blame him, I would have done the same thing. General rule for me after cw is that if Tony Stark doesn't want something done then it's probably a good idea to do it. You can put it down to Stark hate if you want, but that's how I feel and I'm betting Luke shares that feeling.
And Stark himself had no idea what was in that ship, nor did he really have any legal authority in the Savage Land.
Mark_S
dabig2
04-03-2008, 05:03 PM
I beg to differ.
I'll grant you the Hank/Reed scene would happen. That was not connected to this exact moment. But read that scene over again. The Green Light over the doors goes off. Dum-Dum's eyes go green. Jarvis sees it happen and gets the disk out. I'm sure that the door opening was the final signal that the plan was a-go. This was well co-ordinated. The Door opening was the final signal. Without that it's possible the skrulls would have been without a signal to begin operations. Odds are most things would have happened anyway, at some point, but why go do something so foolhearty? I'd say I hope cage realizes the folly of his actions, but he clearly already dose. after all, 70's him walked out of that ship. D'oh.
That doesn't really make sense. So if they don't open the door, Dum-Dum Dugan and Jarvis watching the thing would just do...nothing?
This IMO is what happened: Skrull Hank informed the skrull armada that the heroes are getting pushy and that he has been presented with an opportunity to get rid of Reed. They then decide now's the time and send the ship to earth. That ship was nothing more than to create a distraction because they knew that both Avengers teams would converge on the spot, which is what they wanted to sow dissension among them. And from then on, no matter what was going on with Luke opening the ship, everything would've happened as it did at that time.
And I'm going to assume that the Skrull armada were watching the entire thing too (I'd say that they sent it). Thus you can't be positively sure Luke opening it was the cause. Once the avengers were all assembled there and everyone in place, they could've just as easily pushed the "activate" button.
TotalWorldDomination
04-03-2008, 05:34 PM
That doesn't really make sense. So if they don't open the door, Dum-Dum Dugan and Jarvis watching the thing would just do...nothing?
Well lets look at it this way. Assume, from the actions of Dum-Dum Skrugan and Skrulvis that they were waiting for the light on that ship to turn green as there signal to attack. They've been trained for this. When that light turns green it means that the ships hull has been breached and the Replacements are ready to roll.
Lets also say the skrull armada is cued in that they can't get into Earth's atmo without first taking out the peak. Logic dictates that the peak would have some sort of nasty big anti-alien armada guns on it. Since the skrulls thought it was vital to take it out before they jumped into orbit, I'd say that was the key part of the plan.
Now, I think it's clear they decided to crash that ship because they knew that Tony was getting close. Soon he'd have a method of detecting them. It took them decades to work up the tech to do this, so it should take reed all of 12 seconds to actualy figure it out. They need to get Tony out of the room so Hank can blast him.
Now the day comes. Phase One happens. Skrull ship crashes. Phase two happens. Mighty and Secret avengers are both in the Savage land, well away from where they can do the most good and ready to unleash the replacement heroes and realy muck up the worlds response. I'd imagine that Captain Skrullmerica is going to be a big propaganda tool for them later on, so he'd be vital.
Now lets say that step 3 doesn't happen. The Final Signal to Jarvis and Skrugan never happens. Jarvis and Skrugan may be isolated. They know to wait for the signal, lets say the signal doesn't happen? Do they do it anyway? do they stick to there orders and wait for that light to go green? Do they assume something has gone wrong? We don't know.
If Skrugan dosn't do what he's supposed to, then the armada never arrives, because it seems they were waiting for the peak to go boom first. if Jarvis holds off then stark stays online, the helicarrier can respond and so can all the other stark-related facilities, including the Thunderbolts. Either way, that moment of hesistaion on one of there parts helps our heroes 10-fold.
The point is, grand coordinated plans need for most things to go as written for them to truly work. Any small deviation can screw these things up, as luke not doing as expected possibly would have done.
This IMO is what happened: Skrull Hank informed the skrull armada that the heroes are getting pushy and that he has been presented with an opportunity to get rid of Reed. They then decide now's the time and send the ship to earth. That ship was nothing more than to create a distraction because they knew that both Avengers teams would converge on the spot, which is what they wanted to sow dissension among them. And from then on, no matter what was going on with Luke opening the ship, everything would've happened as it did at that time.
And I'm going to assume that the Skrull armada were watching the entire thing too (I'd say that they sent it). Thus you can't be positively sure Luke opening it was the cause. Once the avengers were all assembled there and everyone in place, they could've just as easily pushed the "activate" button.
It's 100% possible that this is what happened. But from my position, it seems that these were domino-style events, that one was hinged on the one before it happening. And, not to go trumanesque on you, stop one domino from falling and you save all the ones after you. But if you let that first domino fall over...
EDIT- I'd like to note that no matter WHAT happened, Reed was getting shot. No way around that. Poor Reed. If Bendis killed him (not very likely) I'm going to be severly unhappy.
marvelboi77
04-03-2008, 05:38 PM
Here's a thought. Spider-Woman isn't a Skrull.
She's the Kree.
I brought that up a few weeks ago, on here or Jinxworld I forgot. Maybe she's using an image inducer.
Well lets look at it this way. Assume, from the actions of Dum-Dum Skrugan and Skrulvis that they were waiting for the light on that ship to turn green as there signal to attack. They've been trained for this. When that light turns green it means that the ships hull has been breached and the Replacements are ready to roll.
Lets also say the skrull armada is cued in that they can't get into Earth's atmo without first taking out the peak. Logic dictates that the peak would have some sort of nasty big anti-alien armada guns on it. Since the skrulls thought it was vital to take it out before they jumped into orbit, I'd say that was the key part of the plan.
Now, I think it's clear they decided to crash that ship because they knew that Tony was getting close. Soon he'd have a method of detecting them. It took them decades to work up the tech to do this, so it should take reed all of 12 seconds to actualy figure it out. They need to get Tony out of the room so Hank can blast him.
Now the day comes. Phase One happens. Skrull ship crashes. Phase two happens. Mighty and Secret avengers are both in the Savage land, well away from where they can do the most good and ready to unleash the replacement heroes and realy muck up the worlds response. I'd imagine that Captain Skrullmerica is going to be a big propaganda tool for them later on, so he'd be vital.
Now lets say that step 3 doesn't happen. The Final Signal to Jarvis and Skrugan never happens. Jarvis and Skrugan may be isolated. They know to wait for the signal, lets say the signal doesn't happen? Do they do it anyway? do they stick to there orders and wait for that light to go green? Do they assume something has gone wrong? We don't know.
If Skrugan dosn't do what he's supposed to, then the armada never arrives, because it seems they were waiting for the peak to go boom first. if Jarvis holds off then stark stays online, the helicarrier can respond and so can all the other stark-related facilities, including the Thunderbolts. Either way, that moment of hesistaion on one of there parts helps our heroes 10-fold.
The point is, grand coordinated plans need for most things to go as written for them to truly work. Any small deviation can screw these things up, as luke not doing as expected possibly would have done.
It's 100% possible that this is what happened. But from my position, it seems that these were domino-style events, that one was hinged on the one before it happening. And, not to go trumanesque on you, stop one domino from falling and you save all the ones after you. But if you let that first domino fall over...
EDIT- I'd like to note that no matter WHAT happened, Reed was getting shot. No way around that. Poor Reed. If Bendis killed him (not very likely) I'm going to be severly unhappy.
I'd assume the same thing would happen if the people in the ship opened the door and walked outside... which is what they would presumably have done regardless of whether Cage was trying to get in or not.
It's pretty ridiculous to assume that the entire operation hedges on Luke Cage opening a door. They were clearly being observed. And the people in the ship can and would presumably open the door without Cages help.
marvelboi77
04-03-2008, 05:47 PM
Spider-Woman is my favorite character. Would Bendis actually put all the work into this character, and making her popular. Would he make all this effort of erasing the memories of some of her lame stories in the past just to reveal her as a Skrull. Your answer may be yes, but then he has plans to do a new Spider-Woman series. Hey everyone this cool character for the last four years has been a fake. Here is the one from the 70's that is still a has been please buy the book.
Now I say this as a fan, but I fell in love with her when I was 4 years old. Going back and reading all of the stories over and over again, some of them are lame. I really like the tough as nails, and deceptive Spider-Woman.
TotalWorldDomination
04-03-2008, 05:48 PM
I'd assume the same thing would happen if the people in the ship opened the door and walked outside... which is what they would presumably have done regardless of whether Cage was trying to get in or not.
It's pretty ridiculous to assume that the entire operation hedges on Luke Cage opening a door. They were clearly being observed. And the people in the ship can and would presumably open the door without Cages help.
yes, but had tony had total operational control he could have presumably ordered a quarantine of the ship, from putting a force-field around it to prevent it from opening or having the sentry do... whatever it is the sentry dose. The point still being that luke rushed headlong into a situation and knocked over the first domino in the chain reaction that caused the invasion. It's more then possible that it would have happened without him. It's likely even. I've never suggested it wasn't likely that that wouldn't be the response. What I am saying is that there is the possibility of a better outcome if everyone had just kept a level head. Luke did what the skrulls wanted him to do.
Then again aruging about this is academic untill the series is out in it's fullness. We have no idea if the people on the ship are skrulls or sleeper-skrulls or what the overall plan is.
marvelboi77
04-03-2008, 05:57 PM
Another point. This whole Invasion thing is spinning around Spider-Woman. She's manipulating the whole direction of this event. Wow Skrulls must really like having a challenge. Let's pick a character that has not been a super hero for all this time, hardly has any ties with other characters. They pick a character that they have to do so much work to shoe horn her into all of these events.
I don't know if this means anything but in Giant Size Spider-Woman #1 Bendis writes and 8 page story. In that story it says 6 months ago. This is when Hydra recruited her with the promise of her powers. In New Avengers #13 it repeats this scene and says 17 months she was laid up in bed waiting for her powers to come back.
In Byrne's Spider-Woman run Jessica Drew lost alot of her powers because the evil Spider-Woman took them. She slowly regained some of her powers. In the Alias book she had her powers. In Giant Size Spider-Woman her powers fizzle. In New Avengers she gets her powers back from a flash back in #13.
I'm sorry but the skrulls whip up a story that Jessica Drew's powers do not work. A hello Hydra knocks on the door, work for us and we will give you your powers. Oh hey Nick Hydra wants me to work for them, Oh ok tripple agent. Oh wait what's this the skrulls know that Captain America will ask her to join the Avengers if she happens to be on the raft where she already works. What's this how does the skrulls know that Captain America is going to show up and redo the Avengers.
yes, but had tony had total operational control he could have presumably ordered a quarantine of the ship, from putting a force-field around it to prevent it from opening or having the sentry do... whatever it is the sentry dose. The point still being that luke rushed headlong into a situation and knocked over the first domino in the chain reaction that caused the invasion. It's more then possible that it would have happened without him. It's likely even. I've never suggested it wasn't likely that that wouldn't be the response. What I am saying is that there is the possibility of a better outcome if everyone had just kept a level head. Luke did what the skrulls wanted him to do.
Then again aruging about this is academic untill the series is out in it's fullness. We have no idea if the people on the ship are skrulls or sleeper-skrulls or what the overall plan is.
Sure, but the Skrull Jarvis was watching the whole thing. The fact is, they could have shut down Starks operational control anytime they wanted and likely would have done so had Stark tried anything. They were clearly ready for Stark.
StoneGold
04-03-2008, 06:10 PM
I brought that up a few weeks ago, on here or Jinxworld I forgot. Maybe she's using an image inducer.
Or she's White Kree, like Mar-Vell.
jackolover
04-03-2008, 06:14 PM
I think it's more likely she's a red herring to detract the attention away from other possible skrulls. I think the REAL clues were really in the thought bubbles, and the rest is just largely misdirection.
I got nothing from the thought bubbles in NA and MA. Nothing directly linked the Skrulls to anything anyone was thinking.
dabig2
04-03-2008, 06:15 PM
Well lets look at it this way. Assume, from the actions of Dum-Dum Skrugan and Skrulvis that they were waiting for the light on that ship to turn green as there signal to attack. They've been trained for this. When that light turns green it means that the ships hull has been breached and the Replacements are ready to roll.
Lets also say the skrull armada is cued in that they can't get into Earth's atmo without first taking out the peak. Logic dictates that the peak would have some sort of nasty big anti-alien armada guns on it. Since the skrulls thought it was vital to take it out before they jumped into orbit, I'd say that was the key part of the plan.
Now, I think it's clear they decided to crash that ship because they knew that Tony was getting close. Soon he'd have a method of detecting them. It took them decades to work up the tech to do this, so it should take reed all of 12 seconds to actualy figure it out. They need to get Tony out of the room so Hank can blast him.
Now the day comes. Phase One happens. Skrull ship crashes. Phase two happens. Mighty and Secret avengers are both in the Savage land, well away from where they can do the most good and ready to unleash the replacement heroes and realy muck up the worlds response. I'd imagine that Captain Skrullmerica is going to be a big propaganda tool for them later on, so he'd be vital.
Now lets say that step 3 doesn't happen. The Final Signal to Jarvis and Skrugan never happens. Jarvis and Skrugan may be isolated. They know to wait for the signal, lets say the signal doesn't happen? Do they do it anyway? do they stick to there orders and wait for that light to go green? Do they assume something has gone wrong? We don't know.
If Skrugan dosn't do what he's supposed to, then the armada never arrives, because it seems they were waiting for the peak to go boom first. if Jarvis holds off then stark stays online, the helicarrier can respond and so can all the other stark-related facilities, including the Thunderbolts. Either way, that moment of hesistaion on one of there parts helps our heroes 10-fold.
The point is, grand coordinated plans need for most things to go as written for them to truly work. Any small deviation can screw these things up, as luke not doing as expected possibly would have done.
Bolded is the point of disagreement here. I don't believe that dum-dum would just go "oh crap, they're supposed to open it, why aren't they opening it, what am I going to do!" And that the entire skrull armada who sent the thing there are as well wondering what's going on as they give the heroes and SHIELD ample time to do whatever they want. You mention that this massive plan had to go off without a hitch, right? Wouldn't not activating that thing remotely as soon as Tony and the others started fiddling around with it be a pretty major blow to this years in the making plan? That the entire operation hinged on someone opening it from the outside right there and then? They had at least 2 operatives on earth watching what was going on, I just think it insane that they have no contact with the armada or with that shuttle itself that they themselves wouldn't activate it.
This far in the game, there is no hesitation or wondering about signals and whatnot. The events were going to happen because the skrulls willed it, not the humans and their actions or inactions.
jackolover
04-03-2008, 06:16 PM
Frankly I'm surprised they're even bothering with the TBolts.
Since the TBolts largely do nothing except chase after registered heroes, they're largely just doing the skrulls a favor by crippling a few D listers the skrulls may not want to bother with.
Does any of the Cube inmates actually make it outside? I'm thinking Marvel Boy knows how to keep the criminals in their cells, and he just locks them up again.
Or, Marvel Boy is intrigued by this new development and wants to see how it plays out.
Iron_Stark
04-03-2008, 06:23 PM
The Luke supporters crack me up, on one hand, had Tony not been "responsible" for everything that happened the past year, Cap would be alive. Even though it's been stated plenty of times by Joe Q, Bru. and co. that Cap would still be worm food.
Yet now that Luke Cage is the one that set the wheels in moltion for the invasion, he's not responsible because the invasion would've happened anyway.
I got nothing from the thought bubbles in NA and MA. Nothing directly linked the Skrulls to anything anyone was thinking.
Unless there are sleepers involved (skrulls that don't know they're skrulls), thought bubbles get Tony at least of the hook. Ares too.
And I personally thought plenty of Wonderman's thougth bubbles (particularly right at the start of the symbiote fight) really singled him out as a skrull candidate.
Monty_Cristo
04-03-2008, 06:26 PM
The Luke supporters crack me up, on one hand, had Tony not been "responsible" for everything that happened the past year, Cap would be alive. Even though it's been stated plenty of times by Joe Q, Bru. and co. that Cap would still be worm food.
Yet now that Luke Cage is the one that set the wheels in moltion for the invasion, he's not responsible because the invasion would've happened anyway.
they'd be having a fit if Tony found the Elektra Skrull and basically didn't tell anyone for a month.
The Luke supporters crack me up, on one hand, had Tony not been "responsible" for everything that happened the past year, Cap would be alive. Even though it's been stated plenty of times by Joe Q, Bru. and co. that Cap would still be worm food.
Yet now that Luke Cage is the one that set the wheels in moltion for the invasion, he's not responsible because the invasion would've happened anyway.
I think most people, regardless of whether they are luke supporters or not, don't believe the Invasion wouldn't have happened regardless of whether he opened a door or not.
I can't imagine right after the Kree-Skrull war, the skrulls sitting around thinking that they'd invade earth just as soon as Luke Cage opened a door.
worstblogever
04-03-2008, 06:30 PM
Thought I'd add it... but here's a call-in interview Bendis had with Atomic Comics...
http://www.atomiccomics.com/Pages/AtomicBlog/tabid/91/EntryID/200/Default.aspx
Does any of the Cube inmates actually make it outside? I'm thinking Marvel Boy knows how to keep the criminals in their cells, and he just locks them up again.
Or, Marvel Boy is intrigued by this new development and wants to see how it plays out.
Honestly, I don't get the whole thing with Marvel Boy running the cube to begin with. It's kind of weird that he's just decide to continue running the prison... and it's weird that SHIELD would allow that.
satchmo the dragon
04-03-2008, 06:42 PM
I predict that by the end of this story the Skrulls will have control of the earth. They'll let us run our cities and things but they'll have control of the president for example, other world leaders.
Camron Amaya
04-03-2008, 08:03 PM
I think most people, regardless of whether they are luke supporters or not, don't believe the Invasion wouldn't have happened regardless of whether he opened a door or not.
I can't imagine right after the Kree-Skrull war, the skrulls sitting around thinking that they'd invade earth just as soon as Luke Cage opened a door.
Lol seriosly, talk about reaching.
jackolover
04-03-2008, 08:25 PM
I found it interesting because we recently had a debate on this very board about who- Luke Cage or Tony- was being more useful in the face of the invasion, and you argued Tony's paranoia would hurt the Earth's heroes in the end and Cage wasn't that bad. Gotta say, I think this issue proved the OPPOSITE. Cage's paranoia and refusal to talk things through triggered the Skrull's plan and helped cause the crippling of the hero community, and of Tony's strategy, Bendis himself said "He was right to believe that he could, and was coming at it from the right place". So I think this resolves that.
Mags, you're walking right into it.
Who came out the better in SI #1, Luke or Tony? I see Luke walking around. I see Tony crumpled up, because he left himself wide open to attack. That's how I saw it.
Agreed. Only a Doom or a Magneto could unite them in these circumstances, and setting Doom lose to do it seems a very poor decision. On the other hand, he doesn't have armor or Latveria right now so he's not AS MUCH of a threat as he has been... but being Doom, he's still a pretty damn colossal threat.
So, from this, I believe you think it's the real Doom that escaped, not a s Skrull?
jackolover
04-03-2008, 08:36 PM
Here's a thought. Spider-Woman isn't a Skrull.
She's the Kree.
Have Krees got spy's now?
I wonder If the Kree have a backup plan to counter the Skrull earth invasion? It wouldn't make sense that the Skrull get it their own way. Surely there is a Sentry on Earth, still able to transmit that the Skrulls are active.
jackolover
04-03-2008, 08:42 PM
Oh and incidentally, I am willing to admit Stark could have stopped this whole invasion much earlier. How? By simply giving the damn body to Reed at the Illuminati meeting instead of waiting a month then giving it to him and Hank. The result would probably have been that they would have known the truth of how the Skrulls are infiltrating far, far sooner.
Of course, it's as much Reed's fault as Tony's, and it actually makes NO sense from either character since it's just a Bendis plot hole, but there you go. ;)
Reed may have dismissed the Skrull appearance as just another lame incursion, and didn't really take it all that serious. Reed had a similar attitude to the Hulk, when he left it to an LMD Sentry to save his neck.
Kirk G
04-03-2008, 08:43 PM
So, from this, I believe you think it's the real Doom that escaped, not a s Skrull?
You know, from what I recall, Dr. Doom has NEVER been arrested, nor detained by any legal authority since FF #5...
He's been beaten, ejected, trounced, shrunk, escaped, and crushed, teleported and abandoned... but I don't ever recall him in a jail cell before.
Something is really out of character here.
He's got diplomatic immunity, remember guys? That's why he could walk away from DD #40 after kidnapping DD and switching bodies...
jackolover
04-03-2008, 08:49 PM
As to the New Avengers use, as against the Big Bad Mighty Avengers, the NA have the advantage of being under the radar. The MA are targets, and being based on high tech which can be easily be knocked out. Though the NA don't actually do that much, they have the independance to lower their vulnerablity.
However, after the NA got themselves isolated just like the MA, in the Savage Land, it makes no difference the advantage the NA have, because both teams have been duped into an ambush, of sorts, in SI #1
TheORKINMan
04-03-2008, 08:51 PM
A few thoughts here:
1.) The Thunderbolts make perfect sense as a target because many of their members have potent power sets. Radioactive Man, Songbird, Moonstone, and Venom are all capable of doing serious damage especially working together. Throw in Penance and Radioactive Man and there is the potential for a serious resistance, especially considering Songbird is probably the only one who would be opposed to the "well if we're going down lets take everyone else with us" approach.
2.) SI #1 Illustrates that Tony did NOT have it right. Earth would have been more capable of fighting off the attack had they remained as they were previously thus decentralizing the power. Tony's ties to his tech, SHIELD and SWORD basically just wiped out all non superhuman planetary defenses. Nevermind the fact that big hitters like Nova have been chased off with this SHRA idiocy. You also have the Hulk out of commission due to the Illuminati and the Skrulls in possession of at least one of the infinity gems thanks to his "brilliance" and "foreward thinking". If anything this has illustrated that he's not nearly as smart as he thinks he is.
3.) If Nick Fury is a "good skrull" as some have hypothesized, Spiderwoman also being a "good skrull" would make sense. However if Nick turns out not to be one I don't think SW will either since she's one of his operatives.
jackolover
04-03-2008, 08:51 PM
You know, from what I recall, Dr. Doom has NEVER been arrested, nor detained by any legal authority since FF #5...
He's been beaten, ejected, trounced, shrunk, escaped, and crushed, teleported and abandoned... but I don't ever recall him in a jail cell before.
Something is really out of character here.
He's got diplomatic immunity, remember guys? That's why he could walk away from DD #40 after kidnapping DD and switching bodies...
You did read MA #11, right, where he was arrested. Supposedly he was taken back to the US and jailed. Doom is also supposed to have a jail break in the second FF arc by Millar.
Monty_Cristo
04-03-2008, 08:52 PM
2.) SI #1 Illustrates that Tony did NOT have it right. Earth would have been more capable of fighting off the attack had they remained as they were previously thus decentralizing the power. Tony's ties to his tech, SHIELD and SWORD basically just wiped out all non superhuman planetary defenses. Nevermind the fact that big hitters like Nova have been chased off with this SHRA idiocy. You also have the Hulk out of commission due to the Illuminati and the Skrulls in possession of at least one of the infinity gems thanks to his "brilliance" and "foreward thinking". If anything this has illustrated that he's not nearly as smart as he thinks he is.
seems like Annihilation attracted them back out into space. what does registration have to do with it? did none of them notice the skrull ship hurtling through space?
You know, from what I recall, Dr. Doom has NEVER been arrested, nor detained by any legal authority since FF #5...
He's been beaten, ejected, trounced, shrunk, escaped, and crushed, teleported and abandoned... but I don't ever recall him in a jail cell before.
Something is really out of character here.
He's got diplomatic immunity, remember guys? That's why he could walk away from DD #40 after kidnapping DD and switching bodies...
Reed imprisoned him right after the Unthinkable arc.
TheORKINMan
04-03-2008, 08:57 PM
seems like Annihilation attracted them back out into space. what does registration have to do with it? did none of them notice the skrull ship hurtling through space?
In Nova's own book he's attacked by the Thunderbolts and Iron Man gives him 24 hours to register.
Penance asks him to join the Initiative and says "What do you think?"
Nova: "I think the world's gone psycho, and I want off."
Then he leaves. Annihilation didn't have anything to do with it.
Reed may have dismissed the Skrull appearance as just another lame incursion, and didn't really take it all that serious. Reed had a similar attitude to the Hulk, when he left it to an LMD Sentry to save his neck.
Reed was told about the first Annihilation event too (though not in great detail) and didn't exactly send out any red flags. I think Reed's been a bet lackluster lately.
Either way, I agree Reed and Tony sort of dropped the ball with this one. It was easy enough for Reed to figure out whatever the skrulls did... almost too easy considering how much hype the skrulls undetatability was given.
spidarwin
04-03-2008, 10:51 PM
Warning: This post contains spoilers, but of course, so does just about
every other post on this thread, so far, so no spoiler tag will be used. :P
Pages 10-11, in all but two panels featuring Spider-Woman, Edwin
Jarvis is also visible. Visible to her, and to us, and standing within
five feet of her while she's audibly speaking to someone she trusts,
"More than Stark."
This is all stuff you know.
You also knew, coming into this, that Jessica Drew (Spider-Woman)
is an agent of S.H.I.E.L.D., and if you didn't, you were politely
informed so in panel 3 of page 10. No spy would overtly say such
things before a non-trusted person, without taking steps to prevent
that person from doing anything about it. You all know Occam's Razor.
All things being equal, the simplest solution is the best.
Superhero known to be trained in counterespionage, revealing crucial
information, standing in room with someone whom all readers know is a
longstanding personal aide to someone she states openly she does not
trust. The illustrator made a point of using space to show proximity,
and that the aide was paying attention, that the superhero was able
to be aware that the aide was there.
That means the Spider-Woman in that two-page scene, who took the call from
Iron Man and forwarded the information to Luke Cage, had nothing to hide from
that Edwin Jarvis.
Of course, we find out later Jarvis is a Skrull agent of some sort. Whether
that conversion took place before this scene or after isn't stated. Given this
scene, I believe the logical conclusion is both people in that room are Skrull
agents, if not Skrulls. By the way, note that, as he appears in two panels
on page 25, Jarvis's eyes are blue. It's possible the whole eye color
debate is a red herring (but then again, some of you also read DC comics,
where it was considered a crucial clue in some Lex Luthor thing).
And there's the fact she didn't mention to anyone on the MA team that
she'd tipped the NA team of the Skrull ship landing in Antarctica.
My suggestion is, given these points, the Spider-Woman depicted in this
issue is not the real Jessica Drew.