David V. Reed?

[Captain Jim]

I clearly remember this gentleman's run as Batman writer from 1975-1978. I thought it was basically competent but unremarkable. I also remember reading at the time that "Reed" was not his real name. Now I see that his real name is David Vern.

What I did not realize until I stumbled over it tonight is that he had a previous, even longer run at DC, from 1950-1955. During this time, he wrote Batman as well, but also several other titles, including westerns, sci fi, and war stories.

I didn't have a lot of luck when I tried to google him, by either name. Can anybody tell me anything about this writer?

[Cei-U!]

If memory serves, Vern was one of many sci-fi writers who moonlighted for Julius Schwartz but beyond that, I have no info.

Cei-U!
Not much help, wuzzi?

[T GUy]

That David V. Reed was David Vern was revealed by Schwartz in a lettercol at the time, IIRR, together with the information that he was also known as Coram Nobis (in Plop!).

No wiki enntry for David Vern, oddly.

[Captain Jim]

Yeah, I remember most of that stuff from the seventies. What surprised me was to learn about his earlier stint from 1950-1955. But beyond that, I can't find out anything. :confused:

[dan bailey]

Darn. Meant to see last night whether Reed has an entry in Peter Nicholls' Science Fiction Encyclopedia, but got distracted, probably around the time my computer froze right before I could submit an eBay listing (for that Edgar Martinez #22-of-30 2004 Sweet Spot Signatures you're all dying to own ... right?). I know his name rings something of a bell, but that might be because I spent a couple of decades as a pretty intense sf fan &/or own lots & lots of '50s digests.

[Lone Ranger]

I've recently been re-reading a lot of the David Vern/Reed Batmans and tracking the lettercols where everyone is trying to figure out who it is.

It's an interesting period for Batman, as Vern/Reed was really trying to focus on Batman as a detective. I'm not sure that anyone from the Rogues Gallery was featured during his stint. One of the issues (#269) was even dedicated to Dashiell Hammett.

It's not an entirely successful run, as some of the 'whodunnits?' are based on ludicrous premises or the actual detective work and reveal is all done in the final 10 panels. It is, at the very least, and interesting period for the title hampered by Ernie Chan's artwork. He just wasn't a good fit on Batman, IMHO - although I have one really nice page of a Batman and Creeper story that counters my argument.

As for Vern/Reed's other work - I too noticed that he'd contributed some Bat stories in the 50s. I've googled him and really only seen a handful of pulp stories noted. I find it interesting that he wanted to use a pseudonym when he obviously wasn't working any other comic book publisher and he wasn't exactly universally reknowned.

I'd be interested to hear how he came back to work for DC - were the editors looking for a new direction or did he come to them looking for work?

[MDG]

It's not an entirely successful run, as some of the 'whodunnits?' are based on ludicrous premises or the actual detective work and reveal is all done in the final 10 panels. It is, at the very least, and interesting period for the title hampered by Ernie Chan's artwork.
That's what I remember. I liked the detective elements, but without the room to develop the story, introduce red herrings, etc--and there really isn't time for a lot of that in a 17-page story--the end was either obvious at the beginning or pulled out of the air at the end. And I'm not a Chua/Chan fan either.

[dan bailey]

As for Vern/Reed's other work - I too noticed that he'd contributed some Bat stories in the 50s. I've googled him and really only seen a handful of pulp stories noted.

Yeah, but 2 of 'em feature some of the best titles I've come across in a loooong tilme -- The Thing That Made Love & The Whispering Gorilla.

Looks like his Murder in Space was one of the mid-'50s series of digest-format Galaxy Novels, which I sort of collect. (I.e. I own probably 15 or so, having bought them all in one swell foop at a little used shop in the mid-'90s near my old house in North Little Rock, whose owner was selling, at $2 a pop, shelf after shelf of sf books & mags her husband had amassed as a kid in the '50s, then stored as an attic for the next few decades ... which is how I also wound up owning several dozen vintage Ace Doubles, including most of my prized Philip K Dick first printings). When I get home I'll have to see if I own it.

[Lone Ranger]

The Thing That Made Love to The Whispering Gorilla.



I fixed it for you.

[Slam_Bradley]

A list of David Vern's SF.

http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?David%20V.%20Reed

He appears to have contributed a handful of stories to Danger Trail and to Strange Adventures # 4 & 5.

[Kan-Man]

I've recently been re-reading a lot of the David Vern/Reed Batmans and tracking the lettercols where everyone is trying to figure out who it is.

It's an interesting period for Batman, as Vern/Reed was really trying to focus on Batman as a detective. I'm not sure that anyone from the Rogues Gallery was featured during his stint. One of the issues (#269) was even dedicated to Dashiell Hammett.

It's not an entirely successful run, as some of the 'whodunnits?' are based on ludicrous premises or the actual detective work and reveal is all done in the final 10 panels. It is, at the very least, and interesting period for the title hampered by Ernie Chan's artwork. He just wasn't a good fit on Batman, IMHO - although I have one really nice page of a Batman and Creeper story that counters my argument.

As for Vern/Reed's other work - I too noticed that he'd contributed some Bat stories in the 50s. I've googled him and really only seen a handful of pulp stories noted. I find it interesting that he wanted to use a pseudonym when he obviously wasn't working any other comic book publisher and he wasn't exactly universally reknowned.

I'd be interested to hear how he came back to work for DC - were the editors looking for a new direction or did he come to them looking for work?

In addition to Chan, didn't John Calnan and Tex Blaisdell handle the art chores for some of Vern/Reed's issues? I don't recall being particularly thrilled with the art during that period either. Blaisdell, however, is another creator who had been around for quite some time - from the late 40s, if I'm not mistaken.

[MDG]

He appears to have contributed a handful of stories to Danger Trail and to Strange Adventures # 4 & 5.
He even got cover credit on the first couple issues of SA:
http://www.comics.org/coverview.lasso?id=8377&zoom=4

http://www.comics.org/coverview.lasso?id=8469&zoom=4

I think this was more because of the pulp tradition of crediting authors on the cover than selling the books to comic fans. (and these are earlier than the cover credit examples we were discussin elsewhere)

In addition to Chan, didn't John Calnan and Tex Blaisdell handle the art chores for some of Vern/Reed's issues? I don't recall being particularly thrilled with the art during that period either. Blaisdell, however, is another creator who had been around for quite some time - from the late 40s, if I'm not mistaken.
I really, really disliked John Calnan's art.

I beleive there was a period in the 60s where Tex Blaisdell was doing backgrounds for four or five different newspaper strips.

[prince hal]

LR, if you've been reading the letter columns, you may have seen this somewhere. When te fans wee asking to know who Reed really was, didn't Julius Schwartz tell them that there was a clue to his real name in his pseudonym?

Maybe he just meant the first name, but I kept rearranging the letters nad who knows what else to try to figure it out. Then (can't remember when), JS just casually mentioned his real name in a letters column.

And to me, it wasn't such a big deal, as I'd never heard of Vern before.

[prince hal]

LR, if you've been reading the letter columns, you may have seen this somewhere. When the fans were asking to know who Reed really was, didn't Julius Schwartz tell them that there was a clue to his real name in his pseudonym?

Maybe he just meant the first name, but I figured it was a mystery to be solved and kept rearranging the letters and who knows what else to try to figure it out. Then (can't remember when), JS just casually mentioned his real name in a letters column.

And to me, it wasn't such a big deal, as I'd never neard of Vern before.

[prince hal]

Sorry. Double-post.

Curses!

[Lone Ranger]

And to me, it wasn't such a big deal, as I'd never heard of Vern before.

I think that's how many people must have felt. There's a lot of build up and a lot of guessing and I think people must have been expecting Mickey Spillaine or Ray Bradbury.

[prince hal]

Yeah, I remeber thinkin it might have ben gardner Fox or John Broome experimenting with a whole other style.

[Slam_Bradley]

He even got cover credit on the first couple issues of SA:
http://www.comics.org/coverview.lasso?id=8377&zoom=4

http://www.comics.org/coverview.lasso?id=8469&zoom=4

I think this was more because of the pulp tradition of crediting authors on the cover than selling the books to comic fans. (and these are earlier than the cover credit examples we were discussin elsewhere)


I really, really disliked John Calnan's art.

I beleive there was a period in the 60s where Tex Blaisdell was doing backgrounds for four or five different newspaper strips.


I don't think I'd ever noticed that before. I think this was an attempt to pick up pulp/SF fans and get them to buy the book. Edmond Hamilton and H. L. Gold are names that would have been very familiar to SF fans of the time.

[dan bailey]

Not to mention Virgil Finlay, quite possibly the greatest of the pulp sf/fantasy/horror artists (though Hannes Bok would definitely get some votes as well).

[Captain Jim]

You can see the extent of Reed's work here:

http://www.dcindexes.com/database/creator-details.php?creatorid=470

[Captain Jim]

It's a pretty good guess that Julie Schwartz knew him from his sci-fi days.

No offense to these creators, but I thought the Batman titles took a pretty big dip in quality in the mid-1970's when David Reed became the main writer and Ernie Chan and John Calnan became the main artists. I mean, there was some classic stuff in those early 70's issues, under the likes of O'Neil and Robbins and Novick and Brown (not to mention Neal Adams). This period just seemed like a step backwards.

I am intrigued by Reed, however, especially since I see he did so much work at DC in the early 1950's. I'd love to see a bio, because it appears he did comics pretty extensively for two periods, and did sci-fi at other times, but there's still a lot of time unaccounted for.

Surely there have to be people around who knew him at DC in the 1970's?

[MDG]

No offense to these creators, but I thought the Batman titles took a pretty big dip in quality in the mid-1970's when David Reed became the main writer and Ernie Chan and John Calnan became the main artists. I mean, there was some classic stuff in those early 70's issues, under the likes of O'Neil and Robbins and Novick and Brown (not to mention Neal Adams). This period just seemed like a step backwards.
I agree with you there--the best Batman stuff at the time might've been Haney and Aparo in B&B. I think the Englehart/Rogers issues were all the more impressive because of this dry period.

[LEADER DESSLOK]

The main reason I joined up was I wanted to help out a fellow David Vern Reed fan.

First, there is now a Wikipedia article on Vern Reed by yours truly! Also, I want to vigorously defend his stories. True, some of the themes of his stories are pretty wild ("If There Were No Batman, I Would Have To Create Him!" BATMAN #284 v. Dr. Tzin Tzin) gets my vote as the weirdest! But that is part of their charm-- they are interesting and dare I say it? FUN!

Too many writers back then and today, take the Marvel approach to comic book writing: A. The Joker shows up, kills about a dozen people, Batman stops him. End of story. And if we're lucky (?), there's a lame subplot about Bruce Wayne (having a girl friend or losing one or getting one knocked up, take yer pick!)

I'm pretty sure that it was Bill Finger who pointed out (In BATGIRL MEETS BAT-MITE of all places) that Batman can never have a long term relationship because he is already devoted to one "woman"--JUSTICE. So any type of subplot in that direction is pointless.

Bats is "The World's Greatest Detective" and Vern Reed always tried to show that. Was every story a home run? Nope. But both his tenures on writing Batman were filled with mystery, fun and intrigue.

His only problem was that he didn't have a Marshall Rogers to back him up on art. I don't think Ernie Chan (Chua) was a lousy artist, on the contrary, he did some interesting things in terms of breaking down time, using panel to panel movement, but I will admit he was a better inker (especially on the Buscema Brothers' work) than a penciller.

At the risk of causing comic book vendors to jack up the prices on the Vern Reed issues (of which I am collecting) I thought I would chime in and defend him.

[Captain Jim]

Hey, thanks a lot, Leader! I couldn't believe that nobody on this forum seemed to know anymore about him than I did. And thanks so much for the Wikipedia article, but you should have linked to it. For everyone else's convenience, it is here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Vern_Reed).

One thing I was interested in was if Reed was still alive or not; I see he's not; too bad. May I ask you where you got your information from? Did you know him personally?

Thanks for mentioning the storyline, "Where Where You on the Night Batman Was Killed?" I remember liking that particular story quite a bit.

[LEADER DESSLOK]

No, I never knew Vern Reed. We included the sources in the Wiki article. The most helpful was former DC editor Bob Rozakis who revealed Vern Reed's birth name (Levine), the Anglicized name he used (David Vern) and his friendship with Julius Schwartz. Once I knew this, it was easy to track him down because he did a lot of non-comic book work, especially science fiction.

He used a lot of pseudonyms but David V(ern) Reed was the one he used the most frequently. He was quite a character. In The Comics Journal, Bob Haney tells a funny story about how Vern Reed handled an editor who was reluctant to pay him! We didn't include it because it's just a rumor. The issue of TCJ in particular has Terry Moore on the cover .

I loved "Where Were You...?" as well and was shocked by the ending! I thought TWO FACE was demonstrating uncanny deductive reasoning for some strange reason!

[Chad]

Not too long ago Dial B for Blog posted the following reprint of a comic that was published in an issue of The Amazing World of DC Comics back in 1975. When Bill Finger died, DC decided to make light of the situation by presenting Finger as if he were a cheap hack who hung around the DC offices hoping for a handout. This disgusting and absolutely tastleless piece of filth was written by David Reed - a third-rate writer who seemed to forget that at the time he wrote this, he was earning a living off Bill Finger's creation.

It's halfway down the page:

http://www.dialbforblog.com/archives/390/

[dan bailey]

Geez. If the blog's account of that scurrilous little strip's creation is correct, Reed does not come off looking very well at all. Neither does DC for publishing it in the first place.

[Captain Jim]

There's no getting around the fact that this story is in incredibly bad taste. But I'm not about to write off Reed's entire career on the basis of one incredibly bad lapse in judgment. Of course, it was no less bad judgment on DC's part (who may have even commissioned the story, for all we know).

Fascinating article, though.

[LEADER DESSLOK]

I'm probably opening up a can of worms here, but a couple of costume suggestions do not a creator make. In other words, Batman is not Finger's creation. Although some people wish he had done so (like Gerard Jones for one) Finger himself never claimed he created Batman. Read it for yourself on the Wiki page devoted to Finger.

Getting back to Vern Reed. No, I don't consider him "a third rate writer" but a damn good one. In fact, I enjoy many of his stories more than Finger's. Talent wise, they were equal, but Vern Reed may have been more prolific.

As for why Vern Reed participated in the attack on Finger? I don't know. Money? "Editorial persuasion"? Arrogance? Vern Reed is not here to defend himself.

[dan bailey]

I don't pretend to be any sort of expert on Batman &/or Bill Finger, but my understanding is that, yes, he's generally considered to have played a very major role in the character's creation, & for that matter to have been a very important writer during the Golden Age & beyond. Wikipedia articles, of course, are very much not definitive. If I wanted to, I could pop over there right now & assert that Bill Finger invented the perpetual motion machine right after he cured cancer.

Same for David Vern Reed. From the credits you guys have been listing for him, there's every good chance I've never read a word of a single comic he wrote.

[LEADER DESSLOK]

Just to bring you up to speed.

Generally, I personally acknowledge Bill Finger as a co-creator of the Batman series because ultimately, he was working for Bob Kane as his scripter and contributed many important ideas. But ultimately, he was Kane's employee, not his partner...

Bob Kane was a tremendous fan of newspaper strip cartoonists and his goal was to create a successful comic strip. However, he wound up in comic books but remained true to his goal. Now, part of what he did to achieve this was to hire a writer (just as many newspaper strip cartoonists have done.) so that he could put out product in a timely manner. If you've ever read any contemporary independent comics, you probably realize most of these guys have no idea what a deadline is! Kane never missed one.

The guy Kane hired was Bill Finger. Finger was a shoesalesman who wanted to become a writer someday. Kane gave him the opportunity. Now, the key to remember was Kane NEVER offered this gentleman a partnership. There never, ever was a "share, share alike" agreement. They worked on two projects but the big one was project number three: Batman. Kane had a drawing made and Finger thought it was okay, but needed something extra. He suggested giving the character a cowl with bat-like ears and replacing stiff wings with a scalloped cape. Kane took these suggestions among others and he, not Finger, he re-designed the character. He then negotiated with his publisher by himself, just as he had done before and after Finger started working for him. Batman was a hit and the rest is history.

Kane, his father and a family friend (a lawyer) negotiated that Kane always have his name on the comic strip, a rarity for comic books. Kane claimed Finger never asked for a byline and Kane never volunteered one. Late in his life he acknowedged Finger was very instrumental in the strip's development.

The problem I have with Finger's fans (cause he went on to do other stuff besides Batman), is that some of them engage in revisionist history. They try to say Finger, not Kane, created Batman. They have also engaged in despicable behaviour by calling Kane all kinds of names (just as they did Vern-Reed as you can see) and saying Kane was selfish for not sharing. In the real world, comic books are a business: first, last and always. Kane understood this. For him to give Finger, somebody who he had no idea was going to be with him for the long-haul (because Finger admitted his ambitions were elsewhere) would have been risky, from a business perspective.

The other problem I have with these so-called fans,is the fact that they want to lambast Kane for not giving Finger a piece of Batman but they won't admit to a fundamental fact: Finger left Kane after two years. Finger was free to walk into the head of DC's office with his own proposal for a super-hero! He could have tried to negotiate a deal similar to Kane's and maybe even asked Kane for his lawyer's phone number. He chose not to do either. He chose instead, to continue to grind out work-for-hire scripts for DC and other comic book publishers. That's not Bob Kane's fault. No one is responsible for another individual's life decisions.

[LEADER DESSLOK]

Now let's get back to Vern Reed.

[T GUy]

I don't pretend to be any sort of expert on Batman &/or Bill Finger, but my understanding is that, yes, he's generally considered to have played a very major role in the character's creation,

My readings confirm that Bill Finger is generally considered to have played a very major role in Batman's creation, to the extent that I'd assume someone was not a comics historian if he were unaware of this.

a very important writer during the Golden Age & beyond.

I was going to contend this, then remembered that he'd (co-)created several characters and is well thought of by Robert Kanigher and Mark Evanier.

[dan bailey]

I was going to contend this, then remembered that he'd (co-)created several characters

Including, I noticed a couple of hours ago in The Ten Cent Plague, one Green Lantern. I dunno about anyone else, but where I come from, that looks pretty decent on a resume.

and is well thought of by Robert Kanigher and Mark Evanier.

*Ahem* I do believe we've seen it established that Mr Evanier is an even bigger nonentity than Mr Finger, have we not?

[Chad]

They have also engaged in despicable behaviour by calling Kane all kinds of names (just as they did Vern-Reed as you can see)

You'll have to refresh my memory as to what was so despicable about my behaviour - is there some jokey little comic strip I wrote about the death of a Ravid Deed from 1989 out there?

Anyways, the fact is I've derailed a completely valid thread with my post and I admit that I saw this coming. Having come across that article about six months ago however, it's still fresh in my mind and still pisses me off which is why I felt compelled to bring it up. I have wondered about Reed enough that part me said "I knew there was always something I wanted to ask on these boards that I had forgotten to" when I saw the thread. Whereas in the past I would have brought that question up by remarking that I enjoyed his "Where Were You the Night Batman was Killed" and wanted to know whatever happened to him, from here on in it'll forever be his "Phil Binger" comic that springs to mind when I think of Reed. I knew my post would almost certainly take-over the direction of this thread, but I felt that had I not known about it I would have been on here discussing his "Where you were..." issues or his Two-Face Strikes Again story. If I could justify praising the man because of those works, how could I justify keeping his dirty little secret when I found out about his sick attack on a human being.

I don't care whether or not Finger created only 30% or 90% or 0% of Batman. Yes, I gave him sole credit in my post (and if I anyone wants to know why I'll be happy to respond in another thread) but that has absolutely nothing to do with Reed's comic. Normally I would have realised right away how much of a stir that would cause, but I assumed that since it doesn't even compare or have anything to do with the Reed link it would be dismissed. What Bill Finger was doing in 1939 has nothing to do with whether or not he deserved this kind of treatment. Bill Finger was a decent human being; Bill Finger died; David Reed wrote this garbage; I dislike David Reed.

If I have anything more to say about Reed I will open my own thread.

[LEADER DESSLOK]

Does the phrase "third rate writer" sound familiar?

Regardless of how passionate you may be about Finger and his work, this comment goes way overboard in expressing a personal comment about someone's abilities. Also, your blog is your own so I can choose to read it or ignore it but I advise that you at least be accurate, freedom of speech comes with tremendous responsibility.

As I said in my reply I consider Vern Reed and Finger to be equals in terms of their abilities, but note that Vern Reed was apparently more prolific. In the writing profession, if you want to survive and you don't have your own column or a day job, you have to really crank it out in a timely manner. That was one of Finger's problems as you should know.

[T GUy]

Leader:
I consider Vern Reed and Finger to be equals in terms of their abilities

As far as enjoyment of individual stories goes, I'm probably with you on this one. I did enjoy Reed's stint on the Batman book in the sensational 'seventies. However, Finger probably has the edge on character creation.

, but note that Vern Reed was apparently more prolific. In the writing profession, if you want to survive and you don't have your own column or a day job, you have to really crank it out in a timely manner.

I think J. K. Rowling might disagree with you on this one.

That was one of Finger's problems as you should know.

I find it in my heart to forgive Finger for wanting to do good work rather than fast work.

Finger's main problem was that he wrote comic books rather than short stories or novels. Or perhaps that comicbook creators are not paid the same way prose fiction writers are.

The aforementioned J. K. Rowling does not earn several million pounds every year. She earns 70p every time someone buys a Harry Potter paperback.

[Captain Jim]

I find it in my heart to forgive Finger for wanting to do good work rather than fast work.

From what I've read, it does sound like he was a perfectionist. But, at the time he wrote, it really was about just cranking the stuff out. Comics were only intended for little kids back then, don't forget. On the other hand, he also was supposed to have a drinking problem and a money problem (which may have been connected, I suppose), so that may have entered into it as well. Finger and Reed both did some good work; I don't see why it's necessary to cut one of them down in order to acknowledge the other.

[LEADER DESSLOK]

Now that the Vern Reed skit is at a more reader friendly size, I no longer feel that it was an attack on Bill Finger. If the figure in the background who attended "Binger's" funeral was a doppleganger (what, another one!?) for Vern Reed, it seems that he was making a witty comment about Finger's penchant for going to extremes to obtain research (a trait that Vern Reed apparently shared!) He also seemed to be taking a swipe at how the DC editor's treated Bill. From my own research and the testimony of former DC employees, some of the "Old Guard" editors were real harda**es!

In The Comics Journal (with Terry Moore on the cover) former DC writer Bob Haney tells a funny story about one of Vern Reed's run-ins with these individuals. According to Haney, Vern Reed held an editor out a window until the editor agreed to write him a check for the money he was owed! While I don't agree with Reed methods for resolving a labor dispute, I agree with Haney's comment: "Vern was a man and he didn't take that kind of S***!" That's the gist of it, not a direct quote (I don't have it with me). Haney was uncertain as to who the editor was and didn't mention if Vern Reed was wearing a bat-suit!

When it comes to his comic book stories, I'm only familiar with his Batman stuff. Does anyone have a favorite Vern Reed story?
Mine are "The Underworld Olympics of 1976" and "The Joker's Utility Belt"! (Although I'm liking "The Corpse Came C.O.D.!" more and more!

[T GUy]

In The Comics Journal (with Terry Moore on the cover) former DC writer Bob Haney tells a funny story about one of Vern Reed's run-ins with these individuals. According to Haney, Vern Reed held an editor out a window until the editor agreed to write him a check for the money he was owed!

I've heard that story as Alex Toth and Robert Kanigher and also as Alex Toth and Julie Schwartz. I think Mark Evanier debunks it either in one of his books or on his site (this was before Dan McFan debunked Evanier's claims to be some sort of insider or expert on comics:biggrin: ).

[T GUy]

Oh, yes, I also loved 'The Underworld Olympics of 1976' when I read it at the time. Consider it duly stashed into the mental Task List for re-reading. Also 'The Daily Death of Terry Tremaine' on account of its superb title (and maybe being the one dedicated to Dashiell Hammett... and thank you to Reed for turning me towards this great writer, who lead me to film noir, James M. Cain and Cornell Woolrich).

[LEADER DESSLOK]

I hope that "window" story was about Vern Reed, it would just fit with his whole "pulp fiction" background!

I loved "Terry Treymane" too! It's just that all of the Ernie Chan stuff just seemed to blend with those scripts! That Calahan guy just fell flat. Supposedly, no less than Michael Golden drew a Vern Reed story but I can't find it anywhere! It's probably a ton of dough, too because its MICHAEL GOLDEN!