Secret Invasion #1 *Spoilers*

[XPac]

What works one time may not work the next. The whole point was to stop the Hulk indefinitely. That the Hulk would no longer be around, period. Given the choice (and "leaving him alone" isn't an option in this choice because it's specifically addressing how to indefinitely stop the Hulk), would you rather see Banner rotting in a cell with an inhibitor on him, dead, or living in a tropical paradise where no one will ever bother him again for the rest of his natural life?

Well, since you're asking I would have rather they asked Banner if it was okay to exile him to a tropical (or lock him in a cell with an inhibitor). It's not a legal or ethical issue whatsoever if they manage to get Banner's consent. It would have taken so little to actually make the Illuminati's actions perfectly fine.

The plan was neither ethical, legal, or even particularly smart. And it certainly wasn't effective. It would have been nice if it were at LEAST one of the above.

[mikekerr3]

What works one time may not work the next. The whole point was to stop the Hulk indefinitely. That the Hulk would no longer be around, period. Given the choice (and "leaving him alone" isn't an option in this choice because it's specifically addressing how to indefinitely stop the Hulk), would you rather see Banner rotting in a cell with an inhibitor on him, dead, or living in a tropical paradise where no one will ever bother him again for the rest of his natural life?

The place wear the actually put him was a close representation of Hell, the had a mans life in their hands and didn't bother to be sure he got where they sent him. At the best that is tremendously callous. They depended on every thing working right, Please cut me a break they just wanted rid of him, Two engineers and scientists ignored Murphy's laws completely. They did not even both to check if he got there. Cho could but the two men who kidnapped him couldn't be bothered. With friends like those to you need A healing Factor or body armour for your back.


The plan was neither ethical, legal, or even particularly smart. And it certainly wasn't effective. It would have been nice if it were at LEAST one of the above.

Quoted for truth

And well executed to the list.

The total result of thier actions was a smashed NY.

[Ite]

Who was the woman with one arm?

[Numeral]

woah, Tony Stark (the iron thug), is the Henry Peter Gyrich of the 2000s, i been reading avengers like crazy lately ( i'm reading the avengers v1 190 as i type this) because i wanna see if iron man has ever been portrayed as a thug before, and while he has made some terrible choices, this is by far the worst.

[jackolover]

Well, since you're asking I would have rather they asked Banner if it was okay to exile him to a tropical (or lock him in a cell with an inhibitor). It's not a legal or ethical issue whatsoever if they manage to get Banner's consent. It would have taken so little to actually make the Illuminati's actions perfectly fine.

The plan was neither ethical, legal, or even particularly smart. And it certainly wasn't effective. It would have been nice if it were at LEAST one of the above.

Reading back on the Hulk #70 to 74 issues by Bruce Jones, in that Tony sought out Bruce Banners help in the case of making a suit Gamma radiation proof, for the governments use against possible dirty bombs let off on American cities by terrorists. It was a story of two mates, who respected each other. And it was what, issue #87 by the time Tony had this miraculous change of heart to treat Bruce Banner as little more than a monster? I don't mean to be disrepectful of Marvel editorial, but the change in attitude of Tony Stark from one story to another was too far fetched.

I don't honestly know where Marvel could have gone with Bruce Banner from the Bruce Jones run, full of sex, (not that theres anything wrong with that...) and Bruce moving from town to town like the Fugitive. Surely Marvel could find a better use for Bruce Banner than to leave him isolated, away from his peers for so long. Now that Bruce has his smart Hulk with him now, and Bruce has Hulks power when still in Banners form, during Jones' run, why couldn't he be an Avenger and replace Ares? Bruce could be another Hank Pym, if Pym died at the hand of KIA. Banner could become the leader of the Gamma Corps Avengers

[Magneto Rocks]

He's able to somehow magically come up with all sorts of ways of stopping the Hulk (spin tech and satellites) when he needs it to save his own butt. But he comes up with nada when it was an issue of helping Bruce. How terribly convinent.

Once more we see that rather than call out bad writing for what it is, fans blame for something no writer could possibly have intended.

[agrich]

Once more we see that rather than call out bad writing for what it is, fans blame for something no writer could possibly have intended.

No offense, but at times it appears that your definition of bad writing is anything that makes Iron Man look bad.

[XPac]

Once more we see that rather than call out bad writing for what it is, fans blame for something no writer could possibly have intended.

So what exactly are you saying there? That we should pretend anything we consider bad writing isn't cannon for discussions like this? Maybe you can just excuse any of Tony's behavior that you can't personally justify as bad writing, but that doesn't work for me. Not for Tony, or any other character really.

The notion that there wasn't any other way for Tony to stop Hulk was lame when he's sitting in a room with multiple people that have proven on multiple times that they CAN stop him. So bad writing or not, it was in cannon it's pure BS for Tony to use that as an excuse.

Likewise, it's BS that Tony didn't at least try to talk to Bruce first. And that's NOT necessarily bad writing when you consider Tony's MO in recent years.

[midnightman2001]

SO all the old Avengers that get out of that ship are the real ones?

And all the current versions are skrulls?

I think this is the way they are going to bring back Captain America. The one that was killed was a skrull. The real one was away. Either that or the CAP from WW2 (with the invaders) is going to get stuck in our time during the Invaders/Avengers storyline.

Is Marvel going back to 1985, so to speak? Is there not a book coming out soon called 1985 or something? ( where the story takes place in 1985, but only the villains are on earth, no heroes).

[XPac]

SO all the old Avengers that get out of that ship are the real ones?

And all the current versions are skrulls?

I think this is the way they are going to bring back Captain America. The one that was killed was a skrull. The real one was away. Either that or the CAP from WW2 (with the invaders) is going to get stuck in our time during the Invaders/Avengers storyline.

Is Marvel going back to 1985, so to speak? Is there not a book coming out soon called 1985 or something? ( where the story takes place in 1985, but only the villains are on earth, no heroes).

The Cap in Civil War was killed, but he didn't revert back into a skrull. So I think that one at least was real.

[Tobias Drake]

SO all the old Avengers that get out of that ship are the real ones?

And all the current versions are skrulls?

I think this is the way they are going to bring back Captain America. The one that was killed was a skrull. The real one was away. Either that or the CAP from WW2 (with the invaders) is going to get stuck in our time during the Invaders/Avengers storyline.

Is Marvel going back to 1985, so to speak? Is there not a book coming out soon called 1985 or something? ( where the story takes place in 1985, but only the villains are on earth, no heroes).

I strongly doubt that all the old Avengers that got out of the ship are the real ones. If they were, pretty much everyone on both Avengers teams that came out there would all be Skrulls, making their entire rivalry pointless.

[XPac]

Just to throw this out there... the Iron Man coming off the ship COULD be real one. Just not Stark. In theory that could be Rhodney.

War Machine has been a bit shady over in Initiative.

[midnightman2001]

Maybe he is a new type of skrull. A hybrid. :eek:

[Monty_Cristo]

Just to throw this out there... the Iron Man coming off the ship COULD be real one. Just not Stark. In theory that could be Rhodney.

War Machine has been a bit shady over in Initiative.

how has he been shady?

[Harding Prime]

I strongly doubt that all the old Avengers that got out of the ship are the real ones. If they were, pretty much everyone on both Avengers teams that came out there would all be Skrulls, making their entire rivalry pointless.

Or pointless for us to be reading for the past 20 years. Their is no way that they are the real Avengers getting off the ship. My best prospect is that they are skrulls and they are showing up with the latest information that they had on those Avengers, and if they kill the real ones, they will take up there latest guise.

[Tobias Drake]

I'm going to wager that the Classic Avengers departing the ship, a handful of them are actually replaced character, while the rest are Skrulls. All will proclaim themselves the real one, leading into chaos and confusion that makes it impossible to decipher who is real and who is Skrull. The paranoia just ratcheted up several notches.

[Monty_Cristo]

Or pointless for us to be reading for the past 20 years. Their is no way that they are the real Avengers getting off the ship.

you're not looking forward to a brand new day?

[Harding Prime]

you're not looking forward to a brand new day?

BMD hasn't been horrible....horrible, but no one thinks that they need to redo the entire MU, except maybe Joe Q.:rolleyes:

OMD day was horrible though.

[mikekerr3]

BMD hasn't been horrible....horrible, but no one thinks that they need to redo the entire MU, except maybe Joe Q.:rolleyes:

OMD day was horrible though.



What Joe Q wants he gets, if he wants to trash the whole MU as badly as he trashed the character of Spider-man the will. Afterall if you are willing to magle your flag-ship character the othe characters would be easy.

[Harding Prime]

Agreed, but I don't think he will do that, he just love/hates Peter so much, just wanted it to be the 70's again. I wonder if he knows how hated he is?

[Will.S]

Agreed, but I don't think he will do that, he just love/hates Peter so much, just wanted it to be the 70's again. I wonder if he knows how hated he is?
I'm sure he does but he probably doesn't even care because OMD sold like hot cakes and so did BND from the first couple of issues.

[mikekerr3]

I'm sure he does but he probably doesn't even care because OMD sold like hot cakes and so did BND from the first couple of issues.

Joe Q would destroy the Mu if it could temporarily increase sale or make it bake into the &)s perion he likes. These being the real thing would be just like what he did to Spider-man

I don't think he knows how many hate him, his letters are probaly screened by the same folks who screen the ASM letters pages, nothing but fawning gets though.

[midnightman2001]

I LOVE BND!!!! BEST Spidey is years!!!!!!!

[Mark_S]

I LOVE BND!!!! BEST Spidey is years!!!!!!!

But how did you feel about OMD?

Mark_S

[stingerman]

Joe Q would destroy the Mu if it could temporarily increase sale or make it bake into the &)s perion he likes. These being the real thing would be just like what he did to Spider-man

I don't think he knows how many hate him, his letters are probaly screened by the same folks who screen the ASM letters pages, nothing but fawning gets though.

My Secret Invasion banner got through :)

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=92159514&blogID=376920790

Yep, that's mine.

[SnakeEater]

we already know for sure that the captain america there is fake but further proof MIGHT (i may be wrong) would be in the way the cap in that book was hoping the shield. cap almost always holds it on the left arm but this cap had it on the right arm

[midnightman2001]

But how did you feel about OMD?

Mark_S


I did like how they got here ( OMD) but now that we are here, I am all for it baby! Let the good times roll!

[Mark_S]

I did like how they got here ( OMD) but now that we are here, I am all for it baby! Let the good times roll!

I've wondered if that isn't what marvel planned all along. Have one writer do something that outrages many of the fans, but make sure it is his last issue and then have new writers take over so that marvel can say "Hey, you gotta give these new guys a chance, don't be unfair to them."

Mark_S

[Harding Prime]

BND hasn't been bad, but it is not better then the past few years of JMS.

But I am a continuity freak, and just mopping all that up is stupid, sorry Joe if you don't think characters should have "character" and things happen like growing up, or divorce, just negate everything that has gone on the past 20 years, hell, make everyone 16 again in the MU.

I really am enjoying the prospects and beginning of Secret Invasion, but please don't lead us down the same path as OMD. I doubt Bendis will.

[KenshiroUK]

Okay, if the people that came from the Skrull ship are meant to be human, how come when Captain America(Steve Rodgers) was shot and killed, how come he didn't turn back into his original form like the Elektra-Skrull?

Maybe the Skrulls haven't had the current intelligence of which heroes have died, or changed to newer costumes and updates?

Just a theory there.

[XbrandonX (NF straight edge)]

Okay, if the people that came from the Skrull ship are meant to be human, how come when Captain America(Steve Rodgers) was shot and killed, how come he didn't turn back into his original form like the Elektra-Skrull?

Maybe the Skrulls haven't had the current intelligence of which heroes have died, or changed to newer costumes and updates?

Just a theory there.


backed...

also, im just saying this mini series is already ruling.......

[matthewaos]

OK, I just read the issue and I'm sure that things have been said, but that's my thoughts:

Is Jarvis a Skrull? Dum dum and Hank turned into Skrulls, but Jarvis didn't.
And what about Spider-Woman? In every way you look it it's suspicious. Jarvis knows that Spider-Woman called the NA? Spider-Woman and Jarvis a skrull? Spider-Woman and Jarvis joined forces with the Skrulls?
Considering all those guys in the savage land, I'm thinking that there are some sleeper skrulls, though the Skrull DD in the latest NA issue, Dum Dum, Jarvis and the guy in the FF knew they were Skrulls.
What about the guy in the FF though? I don't think that Sue Richards is a Skrull though, if she is, why transform in a random guy.

[Ken.W]

I think this is the way they are going to bring back Captain America. The one that was killed was a skrull. The real one was away. Either that or the CAP from WW2 (with the invaders) is going to get stuck in our time during the Invaders/Avengers storyline.

.. don't forget, Sharon Carter's pregnant with Steve Rogers baby. There's a way back if ever I saw one.

[kenjeffrey]

But is it Steve Rogers baby or Skrull Rogers baby?

This title rocks.

[Karl H]

I think Jarvis is Fury's man on the inside of the Avengers....

[Mark_S]

Maybe Jarvis is a skrull that's gone over to Fury's side?

Mark_S

[Jadeskies]

I still have my money on these being rejected skrulls from the x-men story where the skrulls are training to replace the worlds heroes and galactus comes along and eats thier world, before he does its revealed that skrulls that are playing the part of now dead heroes are rejected from skrull society and hunted. ALl these characters getting out of the ship have had power changes, body changes (beast) or are now dead or at one time in the past have died.

[spidarwin]

I think Jarvis is Fury's man on the inside of the Avengers....

Yep.
Jarvis is totally Fury's man on the inside... if Fury's a Skrull.

Think.

Did you miss that Jarvis loaded the anti-Starktech virus into the system,
which totally incapacitated all of Tony's satellites and computers?

Even Nick Fury wouldn't do something like that, with the threat of a Skrull
invasion looming.

[Harding Prime]

But is it Steve Rogers baby or Skrull Rogers baby?

This title rocks.

Steve didn't revert back to a Skrull when he was killed. I'm sure after all is said and done, there will be a new Steve Rogers to hang around, but I really think that the original is gone for good. At least for awhile.

[joemagnum611]

I still have my money on these being rejected skrulls from the x-men story where the skrulls are training to replace the worlds heroes and galactus comes along and eats thier world, before he does its revealed that skrulls that are playing the part of now dead heroes are rejected from skrull society and hunted. ALl these characters getting out of the ship have had power changes, body changes (beast) or are now dead or at one time in the past have died.

Or they could have been thought dead and are the real thing. The Ironman could be Jim Rhodes for all we know. My bet is that it's the real Mockingbird and Jewel getting off the ship. It would just be so much fun to tourture Clint and Luke some more.

[joemagnum611]

OK, I just read the issue and I'm sure that things have been said, but that's my thoughts:

Is Jarvis a Skrull? Dum dum and Hank turned into Skrulls, but Jarvis didn't.
And what about Spider-Woman? In every way you look it it's suspicious. Jarvis knows that Spider-Woman called the NA? Spider-Woman and Jarvis a skrull? Spider-Woman and Jarvis joined forces with the Skrulls?
Considering all those guys in the savage land, I'm thinking that there are some sleeper skrulls, though the Skrull DD in the latest NA issue, Dum Dum, Jarvis and the guy in the FF knew they were Skrulls.
What about the guy in the FF though? I don't think that Sue Richards is a Skrull though, if she is, why transform in a random guy.

Well obviously Sue isn't a Skrull that was just a soldier. The real Sue was apparently heading out of town. That Skrull Is Lyja.

[joemagnum611]

Okay, if the people that came from the Skrull ship are meant to be human, how come when Captain America(Steve Rodgers) was shot and killed, how come he didn't turn back into his original form like the Elektra-Skrull?

Maybe the Skrulls haven't had the current intelligence of which heroes have died, or changed to newer costumes and updates?

Just a theory there.

Maybe some of them are real and the Skrull planted soldiers so they could cause the heroes to misstrust each other even more.

[Jadeskies]

It is not the real mockingbird. The real mockingbird died in west coast avengers and she did not skrullify in hawkeyes arms. He buried her. Then in Thunderbolts he travels into hell to rescue his wifes soul but ends up being tricked into rescuing the son of satans wife hellcat. However when he is mobbed by demons mockingbird tosses one of her staves charged with her love for him into the fray and drives off the demons. So she saves him even though he did not realise it was her. You should wiki her.

So unless she didnt skrullify at death and went to humans spiritual hell ( She made a deal with memphisto to save hawkeye.) and rescued hawkeye with her skrull love.... I doubt very much that mockingbird in SI is the actual mockingbird.

[OMGIMSOCRUNK]

I'm new here and don't check this board a whole lot so I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but had what I thought was an interesting thought. The last issue of the Captain Marvel mini showed that "sleeper" Skrulls can be infused with all the knowledge and memories of the people they replaced. Could Skrull Pym, during the Civil War, used his grasp of the Clor technology to sabotage it to go berserk and maybe take out a few of the anti-reg heroes to sow even more distrust between the two sides? I mean, he'd have the access and if he had access to Pym's genius, maybe the means as well. Any thoughts?

Also, and I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseum here, but I'll bet you dollars to donuts the angry mother from the Stamford is a Skrull.

Just a few thoughts I wanted to see if I could get some feedback on.

[IronPalm]

I'm new here and don't check this board a whole lot so I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but had what I thought was an interesting thought. The last issue of the Captain Marvel mini showed that "sleeper" Skrulls can be infused with all the knowledge and memories of the people they replaced. Could Skrull Pym, during the Civil War, used his grasp of the Clor technology to sabotage it to go berserk and maybe take out a few of the anti-reg heroes to sow even more distrust between the two sides? I mean, he'd have the access and if he had access to Pym's genius, maybe the means as well. Any thoughts?

Also, and I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseum here, but I'll bet you dollars to donuts the angry mother from the Stamford is a Skrull.

Just a few thoughts I wanted to see if I could get some feedback on.

I actually think Pym was replaced after this

[KenshiroUK]

I'm new here and don't check this board a whole lot so I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but had what I thought was an interesting thought. The last issue of the Captain Marvel mini showed that "sleeper" Skrulls can be infused with all the knowledge and memories of the people they replaced. Could Skrull Pym, during the Civil War, used his grasp of the Clor technology to sabotage it to go berserk and maybe take out a few of the anti-reg heroes to sow even more distrust between the two sides? I mean, he'd have the access and if he had access to Pym's genius, maybe the means as well. Any thoughts?

Also, and I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseum here, but I'll bet you dollars to donuts the angry mother from the Stamford is a Skrull.

Just a few thoughts I wanted to see if I could get some feedback on.

Actually, you could be on to something there, I remember in Spider-Man, they had a sleeper-Skrull who was a reporter for the Daily Bugle. Also in the trailer the Skrull said "activate agents now." Maybe they are Skrulls and are not aware of it, but if that is also the case, wouldn't these Skrulls also have evolved taking on the heroes powers?

[XPac]

The thing about Mighty Avengers is that it does give us thought bubbles. So we do see Hank having a few Jan related thoughts that probably wouldn't make sense if he were a skrull... unless he was a sleeper.

Really, the problem with sleeper skrulls is that literally ANYONE could be a skrull. It makes hunting down clues for them a bit trickier.

[Harding Prime]

I'm new here and don't check this board a whole lot so I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but had what I thought was an interesting thought. The last issue of the Captain Marvel mini showed that "sleeper" Skrulls can be infused with all the knowledge and memories of the people they replaced. Could Skrull Pym, during the Civil War, used his grasp of the Clor technology to sabotage it to go berserk and maybe take out a few of the anti-reg heroes to sow even more distrust between the two sides? I mean, he'd have the access and if he had access to Pym's genius, maybe the means as well. Any thoughts?

Also, and I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseum here, but I'll bet you dollars to donuts the angry mother from the Stamford is a Skrull.

Just a few thoughts I wanted to see if I could get some feedback on.

The Pym theory has been brought up Ad Nauseum, but the mother from Stanford being a skrull is a new theory to me.

[Monty_Cristo]

The Pym theory has been brought up Ad Nauseum, but the mother from Stanford being a skrull is a new theory to me.

i think she's Mephisto.

[Harding Prime]

Reading the preview for Mighty Avengers 12, I don't think that Nick Fury is a Skrull. The cool about me and Barack Obama is, I never was against Nick Fury, or for the War.

[Tobias Drake]

The thing about Mighty Avengers is that it does give us thought bubbles. So we do see Hank having a few Jan related thoughts that probably wouldn't make sense if he were a skrull... unless he was a sleeper.

Really, the problem with sleeper skrulls is that literally ANYONE could be a skrull. It makes hunting down clues for them a bit trickier.

There are also others that make more sense as a Skrull. Pym's intimidation at having Ares in his face, for example. "There is a mythical God of War IN MY FACE." Pym fought beside Thor long enough that this reaction seems odd.

[Edged Out]

I just read Secret Invasion #1. I liked it, though I was very confused in parts, being a new reader and all. I didn't understand what was exactly going on when all of the heroes emerged.

I have a question. Will just reading the Secret Invasion comics 1-8, and not the tie-ins still let me know what's going on? I only say this because I'm not exactly wanting to buy the mass amount of tie-ins it brings. If I need to though, I guess I will because I do want to know what's happening.

[MakeshiftHero]

I have a question. Will just reading the Secret Invasion comics 1-8, and not the tie-ins still let me know what's going on? I only say this because I'm not exactly wanting to buy the mass amount of tie-ins it brings. If I need to though, I guess I will because I do want to know what's happening.

First of all go find the issue called: Secret Invasion Saga. Since you're new it will catch you up on just about everything that the skrulls have done and major skrull related events since Marvel was created. It's free and I just picked up another copy today so I'm sure you'll be able to find a copy. And it's a really interesting and great read.

The main story takes place in SI 1-8. So you will have a great understanding of the story if you just read those.

There are a ton of people who just get the main series and the books they normally get, tie-in or no, and they still get the full story of what happened because everything that is crucial to the story happens in the main event book. The tie ins just tells you about what is going on with a certain character/group and it's more in depth because the issues 1-8 has so much story to cover, it cant focus on what is going on with the x-men or spider-man all the time when it has to get the huge events told that affect the whole Marvel Universe.

[Tobias Drake]

I just read Secret Invasion #1. I liked it, though I was very confused in parts, being a new reader and all. I didn't understand what was exactly going on when all of the heroes emerged.

No one did, so you're not alone. That's a big mystery cliffhanger.

I have a question. Will just reading the Secret Invasion comics 1-8, and not the tie-ins still let me know what's going on? I only say this because I'm not exactly wanting to buy the mass amount of tie-ins it brings. If I need to though, I guess I will because I do want to know what's happening.

It should. The core series should be all the information you need to enjoy the series; the tie-ins simply add flavor and pad out the surrounding events and their influence on specific characters.

[Will.S]

I would definitely recommend getting the Avengers tie-ins though if you're going to pick a minimum of 2 or 3. They're going to expand on the stuff seen in the mini from what I see of the Maleev and Cheung drawn issues.

[SeritoNiN]

Pym died in Avengers: Initiative # 9. So I feel that obviously, he wasn't a skrull up to that point. Sleeper, or any other.

[Jadeskies]

Okay how about the part where Richards discovers the secret to the skrulls technique of remaining hidden from usual methods of detection, Richards says, "I got it, they took....... GACK!" (not his exact words.) just before he was shot by Pymskrull.

So what was he going to say?

They took our DNA and replicated it?

They took thier DNA and injected it into us?

They took the terrigon mists and accellerated thier shapechanging powers? (Did they potentially have access to the terragon mists?)

Whats the big reveal?:smile:

[KenshiroUK]

Also who is "he" they refer to? Nick Fury, Tony Stark, who?

[Tobias Drake]

Also who is "he" they refer to? Nick Fury, Tony Stark, who?

Seems like a religious mantra to me. I suspect "He" is a Skrull god, priest, prophet, scion, etc..

[Kirk G]

Okay how about the part where Richards discovers the secret to the skrulls technique of remaining hidden from usual methods of detection, Richards says, "I got it, they took....... GACK!" (not his exact words.) just before he was shot by Pymskrull.

So what was he going to say?

<b>They took our DNA and replicated it?</b> YEAH, I THINK THIS IS IT!!!!

They took thier DNA and injected it into us?

They took the terrigon mists and accellerated thier shapechanging powers? (Did they potentially have access to the terragon mists?)

Whats the big reveal?:smile:


Yeah, see the bold line. I think you've hit on it.

[Kirk G]

I still have my money on these being rejected skrulls from the x-men story where the skrulls are training to replace the worlds heroes and galactus comes along and eats thier world, before he does its revealed that skrulls that are playing the part of now dead heroes are rejected from skrull society and hunted. ALl these characters getting out of the ship have had power changes, body changes (beast) or are now dead or at one time in the past have died.

Yeah, I'm with you on this one. That's what makes the least amount of trouble for all explanations...

[Jadeskies]

I am glad someone agrees with me. :)

[gunnerfan69]

Reading the preview for Mighty Avengers 12, I don't think that Nick Fury is a Skrull. The cool about me and Barack Obama is, I never was against Nick Fury, or for the War.

Yeah but Obama thinks Fury clings to guns and religion because he's ignorant. :biggrin:

[mikekerr3]

Yeah but Obama thinks Fury clings to guns and religion because he's ignorant. :biggrin:

Veru good thats worth at least Half and internet, That line is making me vote (shudder) for McCain if Hillary loses.

Fury will be back strong kicking butt. Not a clone just the tough and smart guy he has always been. They should give him back his Tommy gun though.

[wulfstone]

Apparently the Captain Skrullvel attacking the Thunderbolts will be dealt with in the pages of the New Thunderbolts, does this mean the Baxter Building thing is gonna be dealt with in the FF mini? is Noh Varr gonna be dealt with in an other?
my point being this does not seen very contained

[Mark_S]

Apparently the Captain Skrullvel attacking the Thunderbolts will be dealt with in the pages of the New Thunderbolts, does this mean the Baxter Building thing is gonna be dealt with in the FF mini? is Noh Varr gonna be dealt with in an other?
my point being this does not seen very contained

It'll work against them. Economically I just can't buy all of the titles, so the story will be flawed to me because I won't be able to read all of it.

Mark_S

[Magneto Rocks]

It'll work against them. Economically I just can't buy all of the titles, so the story will be flawed to me because I won't be able to read all of it.

Mark_S

Not true, the parts you can't read are unimportant to the main story. If Marvel vs the Skrulls is dealt with mostly in Thunderbolts, then those parts simply aren't that important to the main story. You're getting a complete story.

Now, if you wanted the story of the Thunderbolts vs Captain Marvle and that was your primary reason for reading Secret Invasion, THEN the story would be flawed to you if you only bought the main series. But we've seen this time and time again- you're not going to miss anything from the main story if you don't read the tie-ins. Just as you wouldn't have missed anything from Disassembled or House of M or Civil War or WWH. If you want those details, fine, read the titles, if not, you're not missing a key to the main narrative!

[Mark_S]

Not true, the parts you can't read are unimportant to the main story. If Marvel vs the Skrulls is dealt with mostly in Thunderbolts, then those parts simply aren't that important to the main story. You're getting a complete story.

Now, if you wanted the story of the Thunderbolts vs Captain Marvle and that was your primary reason for reading Secret Invasion, THEN the story would be flawed to you if you only bought the main series. But we've seen this time and time again- you're not going to miss anything from the main story if you don't read the tie-ins. Just as you wouldn't have missed anything from Disassembled or House of M or Civil War or WWH. If you want those details, fine, read the titles, if not, you're not missing a key to the main narrative!

But when I do that and criticize the story I get told that I don't know the entire story and should not criticize it.

Mark_S

[Magneto Rocks]

It's very simple.

For the full, complete story of everything Secret Invasion related, yopu uy it all.

For the MAIN story, you buy the mini.

For additional stories which may help the main but are not necessary to understand it, you buy tie-ins.

Then you criticize the main story for its actual faults and dont' say "God I can't believe they didn't trace back what Nick Fury did at the end of Secret War!" or something like that. ;)

[Mark_S]

It's very simple.

For the full, complete story of everything Secret Invasion related, yopu uy it all.

For the MAIN story, you buy the mini.

For additional stories which may help the main but are not necessary to understand it, you buy tie-ins.

Then you criticize the main story for its actual faults and dont' say "God I can't believe they didn't trace back what Nick Fury did at the end of Secret War!" or something like that. ;)


This will work only if marvel keeps the main story in the mini. We'll have to wait and see on that.

Mark_S

[Will.S]

It's very simple.

For the full, complete story of everything Secret Invasion related, yopu uy it all.

For the MAIN story, you buy the mini.

For additional stories which may help the main but are not necessary to understand it, you buy tie-ins.

Then you criticize the main story for its actual faults and dont' say "God I can't believe they didn't trace back what Nick Fury did at the end of Secret War!" or something like that. ;)
In general I agree with this because usually that's how they work. But for some reason I can't help but be annoyed that the Fantastic Four and the Captain Marvel/Thunderbolts set-ups in the first issue were very blatant set-ups for their mini's.

Having all these other mini's surrounding Secret Invasion just makes me wonder about what the main content in SI will actually be since the Avengers books show the back story of the infiltrations and the skrull society. Plus the mini's show fights on many fronts. I guess what I'm saying is that I would rather see the FF and Captain Marvel stories be dealt with in the main mini so that it will feel like less of a Avengers event because otherwise it could just be done across the Avengers titles like Sinestro Corps War and Messiah Complex.

[Mark_S]

The nature of a cross over mega event is that the main and sub-stories are told in different titles. The main story is how the skrull will come to Earth and win (hopefully, I'm still pulling for them) or loose (which is probably what'll happen to them, poor souls), while the individual titles give us a more close up look at specific skrulls and their plots. Sort of like the movie put out in the theatres and the dvd that has all the deleted scenes.
In theory you don't need the sub stories to enjoy and make sense of the main one. In practice it doesn't always work out that way. Reading only the main cw left me with the impression that Tony Stark wasn't a heroic character while I'm told that the Tony Stark in other related titles was at least semi-heroic. When the sub stories are told better than the main story then the cross over is in trouble.
However in this case SI is the brainchild of Bendis and the one of the things that cw lacked was a cohesive editorial tone across all of the titles. So the main SI title might actually have the full story with subsections in other titles living up to that. More or less. I think Captain America is going to pretty much ignore the SI story the way that the She-Hulk title ignored the WWH story. Which actually leads me to a question: Won't the Red Skull be made if he conquers America just in time for the Skrulls to conquer Earth?
But at any rate with a single editorial vision and control over enough titles there is a chance that SI main will be all that is needed to be picked up. But based on the past few mega-events I'm not going to be surprised if that isn't the case.
In a way I can't blame a writer who strays from the main vision of SI. They have their own ideas of how their titles should work, throwing those ideas away or re-shaping them just to satisfy yet another super colossal mega event bells and whistles crossover can grate on a writer.


Mark_S

[jackolover]

I think Captain America is going to pretty much ignore the SI story the way that the She-Hulk title ignored the WWH story. Which actually leads me to a question: Won't the Red Skull be made if he conquers America just in time for the Skrulls to conquer Earth?


Mark_S

I checked back on the Cap stories during the WWH event, (Cap #26 -31), and there must be some editorial explaination when there is a break in the Cap book, of sufficient time, (2 weeks), when WWH could occur, and nothing changes.

As to the Skrull Invasion, editorial will have to leave a sufficient gap somewhere in the Cap book, to explain the effect on NY on Government due to Skrull Infiltration. Because, certainly, Brubaker won't be interupting the Cap book with SI. Bru didn't when the Hulk took out Shield and the Satellites, so why when the Skrulls interfere.

[jackolover]

I think Captain America is going to pretty much ignore the SI story the way that the She-Hulk title ignored the WWH story. Which actually leads me to a question: Won't the Red Skull be made if he conquers America just in time for the Skrulls to conquer Earth?


Mark_S

I checked back on the Cap stories during the WWH event, (Cap #26 -31), and there must be some editorial explaination when there is a break in the Cap book, of sufficient time (2 weeks) when WWH could occur, and nothing changes.

As to the Skrull Invasion, editorial will have to leave a sufficient gap somewhere in the Cap book, to explain the effect on NY on Government due to Skrull Infiltration. Because, certainly, Brubaker won't be interupting the Cap book with SI. Bru didn't when the Hulk took out Shield and the Satellites, so why when the Skrulls interfere.

[samson]

My bet is that it's the real... Jewel getting off the ship.
After re-reading the Secret War TPB there is a part in the SHIELD files where there's a transcript of a surveillance detail on her... and they lose her. They make a big deal out of how does a SHIELD detail lose track of a pregnant woman? This takes place right after the 1-year Secret War anniversary while Luke is in the hospital and von Barda is launching her big "tech" attack. This could be a perfect place to replace her. Luke's out of commission and basically every superhero in NYC is otherwise distracted.

[XPac]

After re-reading the Secret War TPB there is a part in the SHIELD files where there's a transcript of a surveillance detail on her... and they lose her. They make a big deal out of how does a SHIELD detail lose track of a pregnant woman? This takes place right after the 1-year Secret War anniversary while Luke is in the hospital and von Barda is launching her big "tech" attack. This could be a perfect place to replace her. Luke's out of commission and basically every superhero in NYC is otherwise distracted.

THere are honestly a million occasions to replace Jessica... she was in Canada for quite some time as well.

But the thing is, any modern version of Jessica likely wouldn't be running around in the Jewel Costume. If the Jessica coming out of the ship was legit, I would assume that means they snagged her a long long time ago.

[Tobias Drake]

Continued from the Avengers: The Initiative #12 thread.

I don't agree that the X-Men are a moot point. If he was captured, I think his friends would free him.

Given that he's everywhere and anywhere at any given time, and that the X-Men as a whole no longer exist, it would be pretty hard for them to even realize he was arrested. Wolverine has a tendency to just pick up and go at a moment's notice. His absence probably wouldn't even be felt by anyone but X-Force, which Tony Stark doesn't even know exists yet. From where Tony's standing, the X-Men don't exist, Logan's friends are scattered and don't have any idea where he ever is at any time anyway, and there's no other group that would want to break him out of jail. So there's no mutant threat at all by arresting Logan.

And even if the Xavier Academy was still standing and the X-Men still existed as a cohesive unit, they demonstrated with Wither that they're not going to start a war between man and mutant over the government arresting a mutant for a crime he did, legitimately, commit. So even IF there still were X-Men, they wouldn't blow open 42 and jumpstart Magneto's war over him.

And Tony wouldn't need to know anything at all about the NA recent activities to know that the world is a better place with them out there protecting it. He knows they're all good competent heroes (except maybe Echo, who he really doesn't know at all as far as I can tell). They have every reason in the world NOT to be in Starks favor... but that doesn't mean Stark is incapable of realizing that a lot more good would come about from them going around beating up badguys than there would be having them sit in a jail cell.

Except they haven't really beaten up a lot of bad guys since they've been a team. They've mostly gotten in the MA's way and committed grand larceny. They've fought Hand ninjas in Japan to rescue Echo, which is a good act by them but doesn't really help anyone except Echo, so in the grander scheme, it's probably not that large a blip on the radar. They found the Skrull invasion and tried to keep it secret from Tony Stark, which from where he is standing, would invalidate their finding it in the first place. And they beat up the Hood, which we don't even know if Stark knows about. If he does, that's one good act they've managed to pull off, weighed against the general lawlessness of the group, their tendency to be in the way and make a bad situation worse, and, of course, grand larceny.

And I don't agree at all that Stark believed they are JUST super powered criminals. That's why he'll work with them in WWH. He's knows they're not just heroes, but GOOD one. If they did register, he'd be pardoned and given liscenses in a heartbeat.

At this point, that is really hard to say. Again, Tony was attempting to arrest Luke when Jarvis disabled him. His exact words were, "You're under arrest." He gave no inclination that he was willing to break a deal; it was very clear that Tony Stark is entirely fed up with them after their act of grand larceny against him.

If he has no problem arresting them, then he has no problem arresting them. His exact words were that he was going to arrest them. There is nothing to suggest, at this point, that Tony Stark wants to see the NA anywhere but in a jail cell after what they did.

[bjtrdff]

At this point, that is really hard to say. Again, Tony was attempting to arrest Luke when Jarvis disabled him. His exact words were, "You're under arrest." He gave no inclination that he was willing to break a deal; it was very clear that Tony Stark is entirely fed up with them after their act of grand larceny against him.

If he has no problem arresting them, then he has no problem arresting them. His exact words were that he was going to arrest them. There is nothing to suggest, at this point, that Tony Stark wants to see the NA anywhere but in a jail cell after what they did.


That's a load of crap if you've actually read any previous books. If you don't think that Stark would absolutely welcome all of the NA registering and going legal, you either haven't been reading either Avengers book, or you're just ignoring what's in them.

[Mark_S]

If he has no problem arresting them, then he has no problem arresting them. His exact words were that he was going to arrest them. There is nothing to suggest, at this point, that Tony Stark wants to see the NA anywhere but in a jail cell after what they did.

I'm not sure but I think there is still some problem about arresting them. Does Tony have the right to arrest them when they are not on US soil? A legal arrest could be called into question. It would probably not make a difference if he managed to capture them, they'd just be thrown into 42 and held for as long as Tony wanted them held. If in his eyes they are no better than say the Wrecker they have no rights and the least they can expect is 42, if not out right experimentation to come up with new weapons as Tony did to the Hulk foes that Jen captured.

Mark_S

[mikekerr3]

Continued from the Avengers: The Initiative #12 thread.



Given that he's everywhere and anywhere at any given time, and that the X-Men as a whole no longer exist, it would be pretty hard for them to even realize he was arrested. Wolverine has a tendency to just pick up and go at a moment's notice. His absence probably wouldn't even be felt by anyone but X-Force, which Tony Stark doesn't even know exists yet. From where Tony's standing, the X-Men don't exist, Logan's friends are scattered and don't have any idea where he ever is at any time anyway, and there's no other group that would want to break him out of jail. So there's no mutant threat at all by arresting Logan.

And even if the Xavier Academy was still standing and the X-Men still existed as a cohesive unit, they demonstrated with Wither that they're not going to start a war between man and mutant over the government arresting a mutant for a crime he did, legitimately, commit. So even IF there still were X-Men, they wouldn't blow open 42 and jumpstart Magneto's war over him.



Except they haven't really beaten up a lot of bad guys since they've been a team. They've mostly gotten in the MA's way and committed grand larceny. They've fought Hand ninjas in Japan to rescue Echo, which is a good act by them but doesn't really help anyone except Echo, so in the grander scheme, it's probably not that large a blip on the radar. They found the Skrull invasion and tried to keep it secret from Tony Stark, which from where he is standing, would invalidate their finding it in the first place. And they beat up the Hood, which we don't even know if Stark knows about. If he does, that's one good act they've managed to pull off, weighed against the general lawlessness of the group, their tendency to be in the way and make a bad situation worse, and, of course, grand larceny.



At this point, that is really hard to say. Again, Tony was attempting to arrest Luke when Jarvis disabled him. His exact words were, "You're under arrest." He gave no inclination that he was willing to break a deal; it was very clear that Tony Stark is entirely fed up with them after their act of grand larceny against him.

If he has no problem arresting them, then he has no problem arresting them. His exact words were that he was going to arrest them. There is nothing to suggest, at this point, that Tony Stark wants to see the NA anywhere but in a jail cell after what they did.

It would not take the x-men to make a credible threat just a few of his mutant friends, Bobby alone is a credible threat id he lets loose are others.

I don't know why Tony would be so upset over a little theft, he stole quite a bit himself acourding to Frontline CW.

Stark doesn't know the Status of Strange so arresting the NA would be temporary from his viewpoint, why bother. Compared to Strange Tony is a kid in aluminum foil armor on the playground.

[Tobias Drake]

That's a load of crap if you've actually read any previous books. If you don't think that Stark would absolutely welcome all of the NA registering and going legal, you either haven't been reading either Avengers book, or you're just ignoring what's in them.

I'm sure he would, before they stole $250 million from him.

I'm not sure but I think there is still some problem about arresting them. Does Tony have the right to arrest them when they are not on US soil? A legal arrest could be called into question. It would probably not make a difference if he managed to capture them, they'd just be thrown into 42 and held for as long as Tony wanted them held. If in his eyes they are no better than say the Wrecker they have no rights and the least they can expect is 42, if not out right experimentation to come up with new weapons as Tony did to the Hulk foes that Jen captured.

Mark_S

Tony, not being a U.S. representative but instead being Director of S.H.I.E.L.D. who performs operations pretty much anywhere he damned well pleases, undoubtedly has the right to arrest them for stealing $250 million. They are no longer simply in violation of the SHRA and vigilante laws. They are now guilty of grand larceny as well. Many supervillains have been arrested for less. Spider-Man's apprehended guys for knocking over gas stations. What does he expect to happen for a $250 million theft?

[Mark_S]

I'm sure he would, before they stole $250 million from him.



Tony, not being a U.S. representative but instead being Director of S.H.I.E.L.D. who performs operations pretty much anywhere he damned well pleases, undoubtedly has the right to arrest them for stealing $250 million.

Most likely, and it was SHIELD hardware they stole. Maybe he should have specified what he was trying to arrest them for.

Mark_S

[Shyft]

I'm sure he would, before they stole $250 million from him.

Its not like they were trying to hold onto it, or sell it. They used it once to get to the Savage Land, in what is clearly a "bigger picture" moment. Its awesome that guys like you can keep tabs though. Maybe once New Avengers have helped save the day you could bring it up again, im sure it will be as relevent then as it is now..



Tony, not being a U.S. representative but instead being Director of S.H.I.E.L.D. who performs operations pretty much anywhere he damned well pleases, undoubtedly has the right to arrest them for stealing $250 million. They are no longer simply in violation of the SHRA and vigilante laws. They are now guilty of grand larceny as well. Many supervillains have been arrested for less. Spider-Man's apprehended guys for knocking over gas stations. What does he expect to happen for a $250 million theft?

You keep saying Grand Larceny and $250mil as if they took the plane to sell it off for their own personal gain. They took it to get to the Savage land to deal with the situation there. Tony Stark ripped off the stock market for $90mil to help fund a pension scheme. Regardless of his intent, thats illegal, right? And seeing as you like repeating broken laws so much, ill do it too! Manipulating the Stock market is illegal, right?

So as soon as Tony Stark arrests himself, i'll have no problem with him arresting the NA for "Grand Larceny of $250mil." But Manipulating the stock market is illegal.

[Radioactive Zombie]

That's... obvious.

In any case... my friends keep suspecting Stark for some odd reason, yet he revealed Skrulltra to Skrullpym and Richards...

Noob question - the Hell do the Skrulls mean by "He loves you"? Their leader?

[XPac]

Continued from the Avengers: The Initiative #12 thread.



Given that he's everywhere and anywhere at any given time, and that the X-Men as a whole no longer exist, it would be pretty hard for them to even realize he was arrested. Wolverine has a tendency to just pick up and go at a moment's notice. His absence probably wouldn't even be felt by anyone but X-Force, which Tony Stark doesn't even know exists yet. From where Tony's standing, the X-Men don't exist, Logan's friends are scattered and don't have any idea where he ever is at any time anyway, and there's no other group that would want to break him out of jail. So there's no mutant threat at all by arresting Logan.

And even if the Xavier Academy was still standing and the X-Men still existed as a cohesive unit, they demonstrated with Wither that they're not going to start a war between man and mutant over the government arresting a mutant for a crime he did, legitimately, commit. So even IF there still were X-Men, they wouldn't blow open 42 and jumpstart Magneto's war over him.



Except they haven't really beaten up a lot of bad guys since they've been a team. They've mostly gotten in the MA's way and committed grand larceny. They've fought Hand ninjas in Japan to rescue Echo, which is a good act by them but doesn't really help anyone except Echo, so in the grander scheme, it's probably not that large a blip on the radar. They found the Skrull invasion and tried to keep it secret from Tony Stark, which from where he is standing, would invalidate their finding it in the first place. And they beat up the Hood, which we don't even know if Stark knows about. If he does, that's one good act they've managed to pull off, weighed against the general lawlessness of the group, their tendency to be in the way and make a bad situation worse, and, of course, grand larceny.



At this point, that is really hard to say. Again, Tony was attempting to arrest Luke when Jarvis disabled him. His exact words were, "You're under arrest." He gave no inclination that he was willing to break a deal; it was very clear that Tony Stark is entirely fed up with them after their act of grand larceny against him.

If he has no problem arresting them, then he has no problem arresting them. His exact words were that he was going to arrest them. There is nothing to suggest, at this point, that Tony Stark wants to see the NA anywhere but in a jail cell after what they did.

We'll have to agree to disagree that Tony is STUPID enough to assume that none of the Xmen would come looking for Logan if he was arrested. The X-Men are a family, moreso than even the Avengers. And no, they won't start a war over Wolverine... they won't have to. With teleporters and telepaths, breaking him out should be easy enough. Really, how hard can it be? Villains break out of custody twice a weak.

And it's not just one good act these people have performed... they have DECADES of deeds which Tony knows about. Again, these are largely good experienced heroes that have done a lot of good time and time again. There's no reason at all to assume that they'd do more good sitting in a jail cell. That just means less heroes out there stopping badguys. The notion that the good doesn't outweight the bad in the careers of these heroes is ridiculously inaccurate. They could steal quinjets from Tony everyday for the next 5 years, and it still wouldn't outweight the good these guys have done. Spidey, Wolverine, and Hawkeye have all saved the entire freaking universe... how many Quinjets do you think that's worth?

[Shyft]

We'll have to agree to disagree that Tony is STUPID enough to assume that none of the Xmen would come looking for Logan if he was arrested. The X-Men are a family, moreso than even the Avengers. And no, they won't start a war over Wolverine... they won't have to. With teleporters and telepaths, breaking him out should be easy enough. Really, how hard can it be? Villains break out of custody twice a weak.

And it's not just one good act these people have performed... they have DECADES of deeds which Tony knows about. Again, these are largely good experienced heroes that have done a lot of good time and time again. There's no reason at all to assume that they'd do more good sitting in a jail cell. That just means less heroes out there stopping badguys. The notion that the good doesn't outweight the bad in the careers of these heroes is ridiculously inaccurate. They could steal quinjets from Tony everyday for the next 5 years, and it still wouldn't outweight the good these guys have done. Spidey, Wolverine, and Hawkeye have all saved the entire freaking universe... how many Quinjets do you think that's worth?

And how many Quinjet's is the RULE OF LAW worth Xpac?! HOW MANY!?!!! Grand LARCENY man! They were probably going to use the money from the sale of the Quinjet (an easily movable object on the Black Market) to sell drugs to our kids! They break the law, and thats the sort of thing criminals do! Sell DRUGS to our kids!!!

[mikekerr3]

It's amazing how people get up set at the theft of a Quinjet, but don't mind tony ripping off 90M$ from his own stockholders.

And its not like Tony would not be getting the thing back.

[TheAmazingSpidey]

That's... obvious.

In any case... my friends keep suspecting Stark for some odd reason, yet he revealed Skrulltra to Skrullpym and Richards...

Noob question - the Hell do the Skrulls mean by "He loves you"? Their leader?

I'm pretty sure they mean their God.

[Tobias Drake]

Its not like they were trying to hold onto it, or sell it. They used it once to get to the Savage Land, in what is clearly a "bigger picture" moment. Its awesome that guys like you can keep tabs though. Maybe once New Avengers have helped save the day you could bring it up again, im sure it will be as relevent then as it is now..

Grand larceny is grand larceny, no matter why they stole it. Break into a museum and take a diamond. Then tell the cops that you thought it looked dirty and just wanted to polish it, then return it. See how far that takes you.

At this point in time, the New Avengers have not saved the day. All they've done is steal $250 million in Stark technology. That is one hell of a felony, no matter how you slice it.

You keep saying Grand Larceny and $250mil as if they took the plane to sell it off for their own personal gain. They took it to get to the Savage land to deal with the situation there. Tony Stark ripped off the stock market for $90mil to help fund a pension scheme. Regardless of his intent, thats illegal, right? And seeing as you like repeating broken laws so much, ill do it too! Manipulating the Stock market is illegal, right?

So as soon as Tony Stark arrests himself, i'll have no problem with him arresting the NA for "Grand Larceny of $250mil." But Manipulating the stock market is illegal.

"My side did this, but YOUR side did THAT" does not invalidate the original claim. Yes, Stark manipulated the stock market in Frontline. That does not detract in any way from the fact that the New Avengers stole $250 million

We'll have to agree to disagree that Tony is STUPID enough to assume that none of the Xmen would come looking for Logan if he was arrested. The X-Men are a family, moreso than even the Avengers. And no, they won't start a war over Wolverine... they won't have to. With teleporters and telepaths, breaking him out should be easy enough. Really, how hard can it be? Villains break out of custody twice a weak.

The X-Men aren't a family. Those days ended quite some time ago. Ask Anole just how much of a family they are; how much they care for their own. They packed up, called it quits, sent the kids that had fought and died for their cause home without a word of gratitude. Xavier's X-Men may have been a family, but what remains of them don't even care to see to the kids that don't have homes to go to. One of their students is running to Magneto because Emma Frost abandoned him with nowhere else to go. Another is running away from home because the X-Men broke him and won't stick around to repair the damage.

Whatever the X-Men may have been once, they're not. There are no X-Men anymore, and what remains clearly does not care.

And it's not just one good act these people have performed... they have DECADES of deeds which Tony knows about. Again, these are largely good experienced heroes that have done a lot of good time and time again. There's no reason at all to assume that they'd do more good sitting in a jail cell. That just means less heroes out there stopping badguys. The notion that the good doesn't outweight the bad in the careers of these heroes is ridiculously inaccurate. They could steal quinjets from Tony everyday for the next 5 years, and it still wouldn't outweight the good these guys have done. Spidey, Wolverine, and Hawkeye have all saved the entire freaking universe... how many Quinjets do you think that's worth?

So then it becomes a weighing game? "He committed this, this, and that crime, but he did this and that good thing. Do these crimes outweigh those past goods?" Where does that lead you? At what point can you just decide, "Well, because he's done some good for us in the past, we'll let these felonies slide until it starts to outweigh the past good."? Does that mean that we should all look the other way the next time a hero decides to turn evil, just let him do whatever he wants until he's accumulated enough bad deeds to come out even before taking action?

That's not the way it works. Cops save lives all the time. Does that give them the right to start robbing people and shooting civilians, so long as they save more lives than they kill? Because that's where your logic is leading.

[Tobias Drake]

It's amazing how people get up set at the theft of a Quinjet, but don't mind tony ripping off 90M$ from his own stockholders.

Again, "My side did that, but YOUR side did THIS" does not invalidate the initial claim.

And its not like Tony would not be getting the thing back.

He's NOT going to be getting the thing back. They destroyed it.

[XPac]

Grand larceny is grand larceny, no matter why they stole it. Break into a museum and take a diamond. Then tell the cops that you thought it looked dirty and just wanted to polish it, then return it. See how far that takes you.

At this point in time, the New Avengers have not saved the day. All they've done is steal $250 million in Stark technology. That is one hell of a felony, no matter how you slice it.



"My side did this, but YOUR side did THAT" does not invalidate the original claim. Yes, Stark manipulated the stock market in Frontline. That does not detract in any way from the fact that the New Avengers stole $250 million



The X-Men aren't a family. Those days ended quite some time ago. Ask Anole just how much of a family they are; how much they care for their own. They packed up, called it quits, sent the kids that had fought and died for their cause home without a word of gratitude. Xavier's X-Men may have been a family, but what remains of them don't even care to see to the kids that don't have homes to go to. One of their students is running to Magneto because Emma Frost abandoned him with nowhere else to go. Another is running away from home because the X-Men broke him and won't stick around to repair the damage.

Whatever the X-Men may have been once, they're not. There are no X-Men anymore, and what remains clearly does not care.



So then it becomes a weighing game? "He committed this, this, and that crime, but he did this and that good thing. Do these crimes outweigh those past goods?" Where does that lead you? At what point can you just decide, "Well, because he's done some good for us in the past, we'll let these felonies slide until it starts to outweigh the past good."? Does that mean that we should all look the other way the next time a hero decides to turn evil, just let him do whatever he wants until he's accumulated enough bad deeds to come out even before taking action?

That's not the way it works. Cops save lives all the time. Does that give them the right to start robbing people and shooting civilians, so long as they save more lives than they kill? Because that's where your logic is leading.

Again, if you believe the X-Men will simply shrug and forget about Wolverine we can strongly agree to disagree. He's their teammate and more importantly he's their friend.

And for Tony, yes deciding whether or not the greater good is better served by not locking them up is a game of weighting the good versus the bad.

That may not be how it works for cops (though marvel cops have looked the other way for heroes all the time), but it's clearly how it works for Tony. He's no stranger to looking the other way... we're seeing that more and more as time goes by. Is it really that different from how you're defending Tony when he commits crimes? How many does he have to commit before you stop defending?

[Tobias Drake]

Again, if you believe the X-Men will simply shrug and forget about Wolverine we can strongly agree to disagree. He's their teammate and more importantly he's their friend.

And for Tony, yes deciding whether or not the greater good is better served by not locking them up is a game of weighting the good versus the bad.

That may not be how it works for cops (though marvel cops have looked the other way for heroes all the time), but it's clearly how it works for Tony. He's no stranger to looking the other way... we're seeing that more and more as time goes by. Is it really that different from how you're defending Tony when he commits crimes? How many does he have to commit before you stop defending?

It's not about how I feel, personally. This isn't about whether or not I, personally, want to see the NA locked up. My opinion on the matter is entirely meaningless in every way, shape, and form. This is about Tony Stark and the New Avengers, and from where he's standing, we can clearly see that his patience with them has run its course. We can argue this up and down, but Stark clearly said the words that he is going to arrest them. He clearly said, exact words, "You're under arrest." He even said it twice.

[XPac]

It's not about how I feel, personally. This isn't about whether or not I, personally, want to see the NA locked up. My opinion on the matter is entirely meaningless in every way, shape, and form. This is about Tony Stark and the New Avengers, and from where he's standing, we can clearly see that his patience with them has run its course. We can argue this up and down, but Stark clearly said the words that he is going to arrest them. He clearly said, exact words, "You're under arrest." He even said it twice.

No one is arguing that he didn't say he was going to arrest them. It's simply a question of whether people think it's possible he give up on it at the end of Secret Invasion.

It's hardly an impossible notion, since Tony has already flat out stated he doesn't care about them registering anymore.

I think it's fair to assume he'll give up hunting them down sooner or later. An endless cycle of him trying and failing to capture them only make him look like a joke. So it's really a matter of speculating whether or not Secret Invasion will be that time, or whether it will happen down the line. Given that this event could very well unite the 2 teams, it's as good a time as any. But we'll see.

[Tobias Drake]

No one is arguing that he didn't say he was going to arrest them. It's simply a question of whether people think it's possible he give up on it at the end of Secret Invasion.

It's hardly an impossible notion, since Tony has already flat out stated he doesn't care about them registering anymore.

I think it's fair to assume he'll give up hunting them down sooner or later. An endless cycle of him trying and failing to capture them only make him look like a joke. So it's really a matter of speculating whether or not Secret Invasion will be that time, or whether it will happen down the line. Given that this event could very well unite the 2 teams, it's as good a time as any. But we'll see.

Right. It's anyone's game. Like I said at the start of the whole thing, the NA really need to do something during the SI that justifies their continued existence as an anti-Reg superteam, because as things stand now, Tony's ready to just say "Screw it" and send them all to 42. Given what they've just committed, they need to really shine and do something very important, very powerful, and very impactful during SI, or they might as well break up now.

[XPac]

Right. It's anyone's game. Like I said at the start of the whole thing, the NA really need to do something during the SI that justifies their continued existence as an anti-Reg superteam, because as things stand now, Tony's ready to just say "Screw it" and send them all to 42. Given what they've just committed, they need to really shine and do something very important, very powerful, and very impactful during SI, or they might as well break up now.

Well, obviously they're not going to break up and they're not going to be sent to jail.

So either the NA do something outstanding, or Tony just says screw it and lets them go even if they don't, or Tony tries and fails to capture them again.

I'm personally fine with any of the above.

[verybored3]

i sincerely doubt that registration and the initiative is going to be around forever. i tihnk it will make an interesting story, one day, when they try out the logic of the shra in a marvel courtroom and have it challenged the way cap was going to challenge it after he turned himself in.there are valid constitutional arguments that can be made to make against the shra . just becasue the initiative is the status quo for now i think the logic behind it has flaws and perhaps daredevil or she-hulk or some other marvel lawyer can make the case that thje inititive was right for a certain period of time but the flaws that cap pointed out in the issue where cap and tony met and at length described the shra may lead to a time where the inititive evolves in licensing heroes the way real world laws license bounty hunters.

[mikekerr3]

Right. It's anyone's game. Like I said at the start of the whole thing, the NA really need to do something during the SI that justifies their continued existence as an anti-Reg superteam, because as things stand now, Tony's ready to just say "Screw it" and send them all to 42. Given what they've just committed, they need to really shine and do something very important, very powerful, and very impactful during SI, or they might as well break up now.

Have you see the sales for that comic, they ain't going to mess up those numbers to make fans of authoritarian governments happy.

The NA will remain free until the SHRA joins other bad ideas in the wastebasket of back issues.

Tony may say "screw it" but I doubt he will be putting anymore heros into 42. He has a crisis going on now that dwarfs the little scirmish called the CW he needs every possible hero on his side.

The last time there was a major crisis in the MU. Tony and friends were too busy fighting each other to help save the universe, earth could have died while Tony was playing hide and seek with Cap.

[Mark_S]

And lets face it, given the security level in SHIELD being caught by them is like the Joker being thrown in Arkham, it's a holiday and you are there until the dumb guard leaves the key in the cell door. And if I were the NA I'd have plans to have someone bust me out if I got caught.

Mark_S

[Tobias Drake]

And lets face it, given the security level in SHIELD being caught by them is like the Joker being thrown in Arkham, it's a holiday and you are there until the dumb guard leaves the key in the cell door. And if I were the NA I'd have plans to have someone bust me out if I got caught.

Mark_S

Who? Jessica Jones? Because they're fairly short on allies these days, and I don't think Aunt May's going to have an easy time getting past S.H.I.E.L.D. security.

And before someone says "The X-Men", I will reiterate that there are no X-Men, and what remains has been shown to be blatantly apathetic towards those that depend on them.

[XPac]

Who? Jessica Jones? Because they're fairly short on allies these days, and I don't think Aunt May's going to have an easy time getting past S.H.I.E.L.D. security.

And before someone says "The X-Men", I will reiterate that there are no X-Men, and what remains has been shown to be blatantly apathetic towards those that depend on them.

Wolverine is the freaking leader of his own team of Xmen. And X force aside, Wolverine seemed pretty tight with Colossus and Nightcrawler when he was traveling around with them. Even if the main team is broken up (which we all know won't last), they're still friends. I think you're reaching if you're assuming that the Xmen would just shrug their shoulders and forget about it.

Cloak and the Young Avengers (teleporters by the way) seem to still be allied with the New Avengers.

And again, there is Dr. Strange. Though he left the team, eventually he will come back. He'd obviously be willing to help.

Hell, I think there's even a small chance Carol might help them escape if she could figure out a way to do it without getting caught.

Villains break out of jail twice a weak. Heroes can do... and we all know IF they got caught that's exactly what would happen. They're not going to stay in jail. That's a given.

[Tobias Drake]

Wolverine is the freaking leader of his own team of Xmen. And X force aside, Wolverine seemed pretty tight with Colossus and Nightcrawler when he was traveling around with them. Even if the main team is broken up (which we all know won't last), they're still friends. I think you're reaching if you're assuming that the Xmen would just shrug their shoulders and forget about it.

Nightcrawler might have an easier time of it. Colossus would be little more effective at breaking through S.H.I.E.L.D. security than a big, dumb bull. S.W.O.R.D. was able to hold him for an indefinite period of time with out him getting free, and his strategies involves "Be metal and hit things", so it's a fair assumption the Initiative would be able to take him down if he attempted a jailbreak. X-Force would blow their cover wide open, rendering their entire operation a moot point if they tried to jailbreak Wolverine. A black ops team thrives on secrecy, and they'd be saying to the world, "HEY EVERYONE, LOOK AT CYCLOPS'S BIG X-MEN BLACK OPS TEAM" by doing a huge, public assault on 42.

Cloak and the Young Avengers (teleporters by the way) seem to still be allied with the New Avengers.

Cloak and the Young Avengers are still anti-Regs. That's not the same as still being allied with the New Avengers. They haven't spoken two words to the New Avengers since Civil War ended.

And again, there is Dr. Strange. Though he left the team, eventually he will come back. He'd obviously be willing to help.

Hell, I think there's even a small chance Carol might help them escape if she could figure out a way to do it without getting caught.

Villains break out of jail twice a weak. Heroes can do... and we all know IF they got caught that's exactly what would happen. They're not going to stay in jail. That's a given.

The only reason that's a given is becasue they have their own book, and "because the writer wills it" should never be taken into account for character motivations. If Iron Man locked them up, the writers would free them. That has absolutely no bearing on whether or not Iron Man would make the decision to jail them.

And even if it did, if law enforcement officials allowed criminals to go free just because they had friends who might come looking for them, we might as well shut down the prisons because no one will ever be in jail again.

[XPac]

Nightcrawler might have an easier time of it. Colossus would be little more effective at breaking through S.H.I.E.L.D. security than a big, dumb bull. S.W.O.R.D. was able to hold him for an indefinite period of time with out him getting free, and his strategies involves "Be metal and hit things", so it's a fair assumption the Initiative would be able to take him down if he attempted a jailbreak. X-Force would blow their cover wide open, rendering their entire operation a moot point if they tried to jailbreak Wolverine. A black ops team thrives on secrecy, and they'd be saying to the world, "HEY EVERYONE, LOOK AT CYCLOPS'S BIG X-MEN BLACK OPS TEAM" by doing a huge, public assault on 42.



Cloak and the Young Avengers are still anti-Regs. That's not the same as still being allied with the New Avengers. They haven't spoken two words to the New Avengers since Civil War ended.



The only reason that's a given is becasue they have their own book, and "because the writer wills it" should never be taken into account for character motivations. If Iron Man locked them up, the writers would free them. That has absolutely no bearing on whether or not Iron Man would make the decision to jail them.

And even if it did, if law enforcement officials allowed criminals to go free just because they had friends who might come looking for them, we might as well shut down the prisons because no one will ever be in jail again.

Again, we'll have to agree to disagree on the notion that the Xmen would just shrug their shoulders and abandon him in jail forever. I don't think any Xmen writer would agree with that.

The Young Avengers have hung out with the New Avengers after CW. They showed up at the NA poker game and hung out after Caps funeral. And Cloak helped out just recently.

There's Heroes for Hire out there too.

ANd I wasn't responding to the issue of whether or not Stark would jail them... I was disagreeing with your specific point that they are short on allies. I think a good arguement can be made that the NA with Spidey and Wolverine on it are the core of the entire MU. They're an Avengers team with Spidey and the hardest working Xman on the planet.

Again, we know they won't stay in jail wrong. It's just a matter of which one of their allies frees them, or whether they simply escape on their own.

The MU prison system's track record speaks for itself. Villains escape on a weekly basis.

[Shyft]

Grand larceny is grand larceny, no matter why they stole it. Break into a museum and take a diamond. Then tell the cops that you thought it looked dirty and just wanted to polish it, then return it. See how far that takes you.

Because me breaking into a museum to polish a diamond is the same as a group of heroes taking a jet so they can get to an emergency...right.



At this point in time, the New Avengers have not saved the day. All they've done is steal $250 million in Stark technology. That is one hell of a felony, no matter how you slice it.

remembering this specific line is going to be fun when the New Avengers DO save the day.



"My side did this, but YOUR side did THAT" does not invalidate the original claim. Yes, Stark manipulated the stock market in Frontline. That does not detract in any way from the fact that the New Avengers stole $250 million.

Ok, new claim then. Tony Stark broke the law with one hell of a felony. He should have been in jail long before the New Avengers stole his jet. So he shouldnt even be in this scene. He should be in jail.



The X-Men aren't a family. Those days ended quite some time ago. Ask Anole just how much of a family they are; how much they care for their own. They packed up, called it quits, sent the kids that had fought and died for their cause home without a word of gratitude. Xavier's X-Men may have been a family, but what remains of them don't even care to see to the kids that don't have homes to go to. One of their students is running to Magneto because Emma Frost abandoned him with nowhere else to go. Another is running away from home because the X-Men broke him and won't stick around to repair the damage.

Whatever the X-Men may have been once, they're not. There are no X-Men anymore, and what remains clearly does not care.

The Young X-Men are still clearly together. X-Force, despite their job description, deeply care about each other, just look at Warpaths reaction to Rahne's kidnapping, and Wolverines tone when hes telling Warren to go get help. X-Force killed *alot* of people to free Rahne. They might not be willing to kill SHIELD Agents, but im willing to bet they wouldnt have an issue with springing a jail-break. Also, consider. Cyclops is the one who runs X-Force behind the scenes. His girlfriend is one of the best telepaths on the planet. from a purely pragmatic point of view, Cyclops needs Logan on X-Force. Im pretty sure he would help break Logan out, and therefore so would Emma.

Wolverine Nightcrawler and Collosus are all still tight as brothers over in Russia. X-Factor are still together, and the real X-Men will be back as soon as Astonishing finishes its Astonishingly delayed run. Uncanny #550 will also bring together a new X-Men team, with a new base, and everything. The X-Men dont exist? Marvel rhetoric, a one-shot and a few lines from Cyclops dont make it true.



So then it becomes a weighing game? "He committed this, this, and that crime, but he did this and that good thing. Do these crimes outweigh those past goods?" Where does that lead you? At what point can you just decide, "Well, because he's done some good for us in the past, we'll let these felonies slide until it starts to outweigh the past good."? Does that mean that we should all look the other way the next time a hero decides to turn evil, just let him do whatever he wants until he's accumulated enough bad deeds to come out even before taking action?

That's not the way it works. Cops save lives all the time. Does that give them the right to start robbing people and shooting civilians, so long as they save more lives than they kill? Because that's where your logic is leading.


Its about perspective. In the grand scheme of things, considering whats going on around them, yes, the New Avengers need to be cut some slack. You cant compare heroes with cops because the situations the two groups deal with are clearly different.

And since when is what the New Avengers doing "evil"? They arent shooting civilians, and they arent robbing "people" they robbed Tony Stark.

You can use your "when does it end?" logic as much as you want, but its the same logic you brush aside as ridiculous when people use it to attack the potential problems with the SHRA. You cant have it both ways.

[Mark_S]

Who? Jessica Jones? Because they're fairly short on allies these days, and I don't think Aunt May's going to have an easy time getting past S.H.I.E.L.D. security.

And before someone says "The X-Men", I will reiterate that there are no X-Men, and what remains has been shown to be blatantly apathetic towards those that depend on them.

Given how dumb SHIELD agents are written some times I think she might. The Hood had no trouble. The Red Skull and Faustus had no trouble.

But putting those aside for a moment the ineptitude of SHIELD agents (or rather there are a lot of lazy or pressed for time writers who don't want to write a proper escape sequence or don't really have the time to spend two to three issues showing the villains being smart in escaping instead of the guards being dumb) there is also the fact that Wolverine is Canadian. I think Julia Carpenter wouldn't mind an excuse to upset Tony's apple cart a bit (and if Carol were to be heavily beaten up in the process so much the better), if she could do it in a covert way. Payment could be Wolverine helping out his country from time to time (He's everywhere anyway, another title won't stretch things).
Danny could easily pay a mercenary group to go in and get them. Tony doesn't have a monopoly on black opps after all.

Of course the big part of the MA capturing the NA is that Spiderman would be un-masked and I don't see that happening.

Mark_S

[Tigereyes]

So I just got my copy today and as i was reading it I noticed that there are several characters throughout the book who were completely opaque in at least one panel. This may have been covered but....

The characters that appeared opaque were
Dum Dum Dugan (revealed as a Skrull)
Jarvis (revealed as a Skrull)
Unnamed SHIELD agent (???)
Wolverine (???)
Susan Storm Imposter (Skrull)
Human Torch (???)
Sentry (???)
Dr. Pym (revealed as a Skrull)

So i'm wondering if the opaque characters were intentional. My theory has me at 50%, maybe i'm wrong, who knows

[Kirk G]

Just what do you mean by "opaque"? Do you mean they are seen in siloquette?

Or that they do not share their thoughts?

[Tigereyes]

Yes...complete silhouettes. Maybe its just artistic interpretation and i'm looking to much into it, or maybe its clues

[Mr. Earl Brooks]

Yes...complete silhouettes. Maybe its just artistic interpretation and i'm looking to much into it, or maybe its clues

I really don't suspect that there would be these types of "clues" to be found.

You'll just have to wait until the next issue. Only Wednesday!!

I suspect there won't be much in the way of reveals, though. Probably a nice fight in the savage land, the aftermath of everything that went haywire in number 1, and then Nick Fury shows up for the final panel.

[bjtrdff]

Remember that we also get MA on Wed as well, so we should be getting a solid chunk of info hopefully.

[Tobias Drake]

Given how dumb SHIELD agents are written some times I think she might. The Hood had no trouble. The Red Skull and Faustus had no trouble.

But putting those aside for a moment the ineptitude of SHIELD agents (or rather there are a lot of lazy or pressed for time writers who don't want to write a proper escape sequence or don't really have the time to spend two to three issues showing the villains being smart in escaping instead of the guards being dumb) there is also the fact that Wolverine is Canadian. I think Julia Carpenter wouldn't mind an excuse to upset Tony's apple cart a bit (and if Carol were to be heavily beaten up in the process so much the better), if she could do it in a covert way. Payment could be Wolverine helping out his country from time to time (He's everywhere anyway, another title won't stretch things).
Danny could easily pay a mercenary group to go in and get them. Tony doesn't have a monopoly on black opps after all.

Of course the big part of the MA capturing the NA is that Spiderman would be un-masked and I don't see that happening.

Mark_S

In their defense, the Red Skull has Faustus, Faustus hypnotizes people into doing his work, and The Hood can turn invisible. It's really not hard to see why it would be difficult keeping these men out. Especially when no one is aware any of them is actually a threat.

[jackolover]

Now that we have seen what happened to Carol Danvers in Ms Marvel #27, (sorry, you'll have to read it), I'd like to see what happens when Spiderman faces off with Carol. We saw now that Ms Marvel is Iron Mans second in charge, just what Peter Parker was when he was in Tonys company. Now, the lady has Tony's ear, and I would just like to see a face off when the previous number 2 pro-reg meets the current number 2.

It does also give an insight into Carols behaviour towards her MA in this situation. Carol had just seen the destruction of her other team, so she behaves with concern to Tony as a result of that experience. I think Carol is now less sure of herself than she was before Ms Marvel #27.

[CMBMOOL]

Now that we have seen what happened to Carol Danvers in Ms Marvel #27, (sorry, you'll have to read it), I'd like to see what happens when Spiderman faces off with Carol. We saw now that Ms Marvel is Iron Mans second in charge, just what Peter Parker was when he was in Tonys company. Now, the lady has Tony's ear, and I would just like to see a face off when the previous number 2 pro-reg meets the current number 2.

It does also give an insight into Carols behaviour towards her MA in this situation. Carol had just seen the destruction of her other team, so she behaves with concern to Tony as a result of that experience. I think Carol is now less sure of herself than she was before Ms Marvel #27.


All this comes form hanging with Tony, but it seems that within a preview of Avengers/Invaders #2, it seems that they got her character down perfect. :tongue:

[jackolover]

All this comes form hanging with Tony, but it seems that within a preview of Avengers/Invaders #2, it seems that they got her character down perfect. :tongue:

What happens there CMBMOOL?

[Hunter McFalls]

I have been a big fan of Mark Morales's finishes since Avengers: Illuminati and must say they are great on Secret Invasion as well! Great inking!