View Full Version : Secret Invasion #1 *Spoilers*
StoneGold
04-03-2008, 06:07 PM
Jessica Drew is definitely not a Skrull.
Actually, I'm starting to think she's the mystery Kree that we know is on Earth. It would explain a lot.
disco stu
04-03-2008, 06:38 PM
Anyone else think fury could have been the shodow figure from NA 1, trying to put the avengers on the right track leading them to the savage land, and im guessing that the skrulls have done something on earth previously that they used the sentry to make everyone forget.
timomcshade
04-03-2008, 06:57 PM
Jessica Drew is definitely not a Skrull.
OK that may be true but she is definitely a major player in this Invasion. IF you are looking to not trust someone she is even more untrustworthy than Tony Stark!
Actually, I'm starting to think she's the mystery Kree that we know is on Earth. It would explain a lot.
Yeah... she's a strong possibility since she seems to be in the middle of everything. Hydra and SHIELD, the MA and the NA... she's all over the place. And she was taking orders from both Fury and Madam Viper... the only 2 people that seemed to know what the hell was going on before all this really started.
Karl H
04-03-2008, 10:53 PM
first of all Luke Cage is a f**king tool, who the hell does he think he is by telling Stark he can't hurt him? Does he not remember the two ass kickings he got from Tony during CW?
What a doring, bland, lame ass character, he's not Avengers material, can't wait until he's off the team, maybe then I'll start buying NA again.
second, good issue, kinda expected some to be Skrulls, didnt' expect others.
Or of course, you could just ignore the 5 years of CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT that Bendis has done with Cage and harp on about arguments from way back when NA's was first conceived.
1, it's tedious repetition of old, tired arguments which sales and critical acclaim have proven to be flase.
2, you yourself have claimed you DON'T EVEN READ NA's so why go making a bunch of assumptions. If you had bothered to read any of New Avengers, you'd find Cage has moved from a reckless anti-establishment type unsure of his place in the team, to one of the key drivers behind the team (the issue where the Avengers stop drug dealers), to the teams moral compass and leader in the absence of Captain America, all whilst becoming a father.
TotalWorldDomination
04-04-2008, 08:16 AM
Or of course, you could just ignore the 5 years of CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT that Bendis has done with Cage and harp on about arguments from way back when NA's was first conceived.
1, it's tedious repetition of old, tired arguments which sales and critical acclaim have proven to be flase.
2, you yourself have claimed you DON'T EVEN READ NA's so why go making a bunch of assumptions. If you had bothered to read any of New Avengers, you'd find Cage has moved from a reckless anti-establishment type unsure of his place in the team, to one of the key drivers behind the team (the issue where the Avengers stop drug dealers), to the teams moral compass and leader in the absence of Captain America, all whilst becoming a father.
While I agree that it was a slightly repetitive argument, I've been reading Bendis' Luke Cage since Alias and I still think he's a reckless anti-establishment type. Except now he's a reckless moralizing paranoid anti-establishment type, whereas he used to be a reckless selfish self-serving anti-establishment type. He has developed, but his arrogant disregard for the powers that be is still well and intact. We all know that unbreakable skin or not, tony could kick the living poop out of Luke Cage. Luke's full of himself and doesn't like anyone telling him what to do- he's what Teddy Roosevelt would have called a "rugged individualist", with the exception that he doesn't take any orders, where TR was a loyal army man (for the most part) and a member of the federal goverment.
This is not to say that this makes him a BAD superhero, on the contrary, it makes him the perfect exemplar of the Marvel "Damaged Hero". It's why he makes such a perfect foil for tony. That being said, I'm clearly on tony's side and hope at some point he gets back up punches him through a wall and says "oops sorry thought you were a skrull".;)
EDIT- I'd like to add my name to the growing chorus of people who hate the new smilies. They creep me the frack out.
While I agree that it was a slightly repetitive argument, I've been reading Bendis' Luke Cage since Alias and I still think he's a reckless anti-establishment type. Except now he's a reckless moralizing paranoid anti-establishment type, whereas he used to be a reckless selfish self-serving anti-establishment type. He has developed, but his arrogant disregard for the powers that be is still well and intact. We all know that unbreakable skin or not, tony could kick the living poop out of Luke Cage. Luke's full of himself and doesn't like anyone telling him what to do- he's what Teddy Roosevelt would have called a "rugged individualist", with the exception that he doesn't take any orders, where TR was a loyal army man (for the most part) and a member of the federal goverment.
This is not to say that this makes him a BAD superhero, on the contrary, it makes him the perfect exemplar of the Marvel "Damaged Hero". It's why he makes such a perfect foil for tony. That being said, I'm clearly on tony's side and hope at some point he gets back up punches him through a wall and says "oops sorry thought you were a skrull".;)
EDIT- I'd like to add my name to the growing chorus of people who hate the new smilies. They creep me the frack out.
Given Starks win-loss record fighting other heroes since CW, I'd give Cage even odds if he had to fight Stark, though I agree on paper Iron Man is more powerful. A weaker version of Cage took it to Doom, and Stark in his own arrogance would probably just underestimate Cage and leave Cage enough openings to expoit.
And I do agree Cage is anti-establishment... but I don't agree it's a paranoid anti-establishment. He's got plenty of valid reason not to trust the establishment since the very start of NA.
40yearoldnovafan
04-04-2008, 08:37 AM
When I saw the cover with those characters escaping from the ship, I pegged them all for Skrulls sent to make everyone doubt whether or not the characters they are posing as are the real thing, and how long the Skrulls have been infiltrating the organizations.
It's a great way to make everyone that much more paranoid!
I agree with you completely. That was my feeling also. No way would they change the growth of all of these characters. Some of them may be human and they probably do not know they have been trapped with Skrulls for a long period of time. Bendis actually alluded to this the other day.
Jimmy
Sanctus
04-04-2008, 08:58 AM
Given Starks win-loss record fighting other heroes since CW, I'd give Cage even odds if he had to fight Stark, though I agree on paper Iron Man is more powerful. A weaker version of Cage took it to Doom, and Stark in his own arrogance would probably just underestimate Cage and leave Cage enough openings to expoit.
And I do agree Cage is anti-establishment... but I don't agree it's a paranoid anti-establishment. He's got plenty of valid reason not to trust the establishment since the very start of NA.
Agreed. I think that Luke could hang with Tony. Even if he could not, that is no reason for him to cower. Sometimes the victory comes not in winning the fight, but letting fascist know that you will not just blindly obey. The struggle is the victory because it inspires others, and any system that has to constantly resort to violence to stay in power will crumble, even if it's just do to depleting resources. I like Cage's character. He is the unsung heart of the Avenger's Universe.
TotalWorldDomination
04-04-2008, 09:00 AM
Given Starks win-loss record fighting other heroes since CW, I'd give Cage even odds if he had to fight Stark, though I agree on paper Iron Man is more powerful. A weaker version of Cage took it to Doom, and Stark in his own arrogance would probably just underestimate Cage and leave Cage enough openings to expoit.
And I do agree Cage is anti-establishment... but I don't agree it's a paranoid anti-establishment. He's got plenty of valid reason not to trust the establishment since the very start of NA.
I agree that Stark gets jobbed fairly often these days, but I'm pretty sure he's preped to take Cage on. I mean the man programed all of Cap's fights into is suit. You think he didn't do the same to cage after all this time?
And remember, just because everyones out to get him dosn't mean he's not parinoid. He's clearly paranoid. Even if your paranoia is justified, it dosn't stop being paranoia.
SquidSquod
04-04-2008, 09:05 AM
Given Starks win-loss record fighting other heroes since CW, I'd give Cage even odds if he had to fight Stark, though I agree on paper Iron Man is more powerful. A weaker version of Cage took it to Doom, and Stark in his own arrogance would probably just underestimate Cage and leave Cage enough openings to expoit.
And I do agree Cage is anti-establishment... but I don't agree it's a paranoid anti-establishment. He's got plenty of valid reason not to trust the establishment since the very start of NA.
Cage has only one way for taking out Stark - brute force.
However, Stark has plenty of ways to skewer Cage. He's been composed in all his engagements, but when Tony's really mad (I think we'll see it somewhere in Secret Invasion) watch out.
Cage has only one way for taking out Stark - brute force.
However, Stark has plenty of ways to skewer Cage. He's been composed in all his engagements, but when Tony's really mad (I think we'll see it somewhere in Secret Invasion) watch out.
Sure. I definately agree Stark is more versatile and overall more powerful.
But again, Tony's win-loss record against other heroes since Civil War has been pretty unspectacular. It's not at all impossible to imagine Stark underestimating Cage the same way he did She-Hulk, and giving Cage a few openings he can take advantage of.
SquidSquod
04-04-2008, 09:43 AM
Sure. I definately agree Stark is more versatile and overall more powerful.
But again, Tony's win-loss record against other heroes since Civil War has been pretty unspectacular. It's not at all impossible to imagine Stark underestimating Cage the same way he did She-Hulk, and giving Cage a few openings he can take advantage of.
Tony has gone against Thor and Hulk, a power greater beyond what Luke is. She-Hulk at the end is under Tony's mercy. All the engagements are without Tony step into a raging mode, which what Steve got before helped by Herc in CW 4. And this is Steve, the man who's supposed to be Tony's brother so I don't think he can't be fully angry with Steve.
Iron Man can launch missiles while flying, make a flamethrower, switch on the sonic screecher, create energy shield impenetrable by Semi Super Skrulls, create a wireless nuclear explosion, zap with the satellite cannon, and even call Argonauts (he must have still hid them somewhere) that decimated F4/Avengers. I don't think Luke alone has a chance when Tony's mad. The question is how mad will be Tony when facing Luke. He's a reactive guy.
roundman
04-04-2008, 10:04 AM
Great issue, but I had one nagging question- why did Tony introduce Skrullectra to Reed as if Reed had not previously known about her/it? Wasn't Reed there in Illuminati #5 when Tony let the other members of the Illuminati know about it?
Tobias Drake
04-04-2008, 10:11 AM
I think the speech was more for Hank's benefit. It wasn't like Tony could come out and say, "Hank, I'm letting you in on this big secret. Oh, I don't need to tell Reed, he already knows because of our secret cabal I shouldn't have just mentioned."
Tony has gone against Thor and Hulk, a power greater beyond what Luke is. She-Hulk at the end is under Tony's mercy. All the engagements are without Tony step into a raging mode, which what Steve got before helped by Herc in CW 4. And this is Steve, the man who's supposed to be Tony's brother so I don't think he can't be fully angry with Steve.
Iron Man can launch missiles while flying, make a flamethrower, switch on the sonic screecher, create energy shield impenetrable by Semi Super Skrulls, create a wireless nuclear explosion, zap with the satellite cannon, and even call Argonauts (he must have still hid them somewhere) that decimated F4/Avengers. I don't think Luke alone has a chance when Tony's mad. The question is how mad will be Tony when facing Luke. He's a reactive guy.
Sure, Tony has gone against Thor and Hulk. And he's also lost to Spider-Man. Again, no one is arguing that Stark isn't more powerful... the arguement is just that has descent odds of winning despite that.
Stark had She-Hulk at his mercy because of nano's... a trick that wouldn't work against Cages unbreakable skin. So it's certainly possible that Stark would lose to a character less powerful than himself especially if he fights a bit too overconfidently. Again, he actually loses a desent percentage of his hero vs hero fights. I do agree that Stark is more powerful... but I also think that in his arrogance he makes a lot of mistakes and underestimates the heroes he's trying to catch.
The bottom line is this... Iron Man is more powerful. But if Tony going to beat and arrest Cage? Probably not. If he tries, he'll likely fail.
roundman
04-04-2008, 10:17 AM
I think the speech was more for Hank's benefit. It wasn't like Tony could come out and say, "Hank, I'm letting you in on this big secret. Oh, I don't need to tell Reed, he already knows because of our secret cabal I shouldn't have just mentioned."
Surely Tonhy must have thought that "Pym" knew about the Illuminati- after all, World War Hulk revealed their group very publicly.
Surely Tonhy must have thought that "Pym" knew about the Illuminati- after all, World War Hulk revealed their group very publicly.
WWH only revealed that those 5 worked together that one time to exile the Hulk. It didn't reveal that they've secretly been working together for years and years.
The Illuminati is really Bendis thing... I think when its REALLY revealed, it'll be done by Bendis himself.
Mark_S
04-04-2008, 11:07 AM
The nano thing couldn't work on Luke but not because he couldn't get it into him, Tony uses an adamantium tipped needle when he injects it, that could probably get through Cage's skin, but the nanites worked against the gama radiation in Jen's body, Luke isn't radioactive.
But Tony being Tony he can probably take Luke down, there isn't a person on the planet that he's worked with that Tony hasn't planned to betray at one time or another. He's got a plan to take Luke down if he has too.
Mark_S
The nano thing couldn't work on Luke but not because he couldn't get it into him, Tony uses an adamantium tipped needle when he injects it, that could probably get through Cage's skin, but the nanites worked against the gama radiation in Jen's body, Luke isn't radioactive.
But Tony being Tony he can probably take Luke down, there isn't a person on the planet that he's worked with that Tony hasn't planned to betray at one time or another. He's got a plan to take Luke down if he has too.
Mark_S
I'm sure he does have a plan... the problem being that his plans against other heroes often end up blowing up in his face. Chalk it up to bad planning or bad kharma or whatever, but Tony just doesn't seem to get that much love in the hero catching department. I imagine Stark must now have a greater empathy for what the villains go through everytime their plans seem to get foiled.
But either way, Stark won't be doing to much hero catching anytime soon. I'm actually wondering if this'll be a short term thing, or if Bendis is benching him for a descent amount of time to allow Carol and Luke to run the show for a bit.
There would be obvious downsides to having Tony put out given how powerful he is. Yet I can't help but feel that the second Tony is out of the equation, the MA and NA will be able to function together as a single unit far more effectively. I do think Carol and Luke can co-exist without too much trust issues despite Carols involvement in the now infamous Cap trap.
Also... it's kinda cool that once Tony is out, Spidey becomes the smartest person in the room.
theardri
04-04-2008, 11:23 AM
The nano thing couldn't work on Luke but not because he couldn't get it into him, Tony uses an adamantium tipped needle when he injects it, that could probably get through Cage's skin, but the nanites worked against the gama radiation in Jen's body, Luke isn't radioactive.
But Tony being Tony he can probably take Luke down, there isn't a person on the planet that he's worked with that Tony hasn't planned to betray at one time or another. He's got a plan to take Luke down if he has too.
Mark_S
HE must have learned that off of Xavier (Xavier Proticols anyone?) when they hung out and pretended to have humanities best interests at heart.
Mark_S
04-04-2008, 11:59 AM
I'm sure he does have a plan... the problem being that his plans against other heroes often end up blowing up in his face. Chalk it up to bad planning or bad kharma or whatever, but Tony just doesn't seem to get that much love in the hero catching department. I imagine Stark must now have a greater empathy for what the villains go through everytime their plans seem to get foiled.
But either way, Stark won't be doing to much hero catching anytime soon. I'm actually wondering if this'll be a short term thing, or if Bendis is benching him for a descent amount of time to allow Carol and Luke to run the show for a bit.
There would be obvious downsides to having Tony put out given how powerful he is. Yet I can't help but feel that the second Tony is out of the equation, the MA and NA will be able to function together as a single unit far more effectively. I do think Carol and Luke can co-exist without too much trust issues despite Carols involvement in the now infamous Cap trap.
Also... it's kinda cool that once Tony is out, Spidey becomes the smartest person in the room.
True, for all she was Tony's attack dog in cw Carol does seem to have mellowed somewhat. At the very least she isn't as hated as Tony is. But after the battle in the next issue I wonder if either of them will be left standing.
Mark_S
Tobias Drake
04-04-2008, 12:44 PM
The nano thing couldn't work on Luke but not because he couldn't get it into him, Tony uses an adamantium tipped needle when he injects it, that could probably get through Cage's skin, but the nanites worked against the gama radiation in Jen's body, Luke isn't radioactive.
The nano thing, more accurately known as S.P.I.N.-Tech, worked against the gamma radiation in Jen's body because Jennifer Walters is who that particular S.P.I.N.-Tech was designed for. There was also S.P.I.N.-Tech built for Spider-Man, and although a case can be made that he's also radioactive, he's not gamma radioactive. Luke doesn't need to be radioactive for S.P.I.N. to be employed against him; they simply need to have Luke Cage S.P.I.N.-Tech commissioned.
That said...he's going to have to work pretty hard to be worth $50 million, which is what it would cost PER NEEDLE to employ S.P.I.N.-Tech against him. Since I really hope Tony's learned from Hulk why he should have more than one jab, that would probably ring up $200-300 million just to make sure there's enough in case the first attempt fails. Luke Cage isn't worth spending that kind of money.
Iron_Stark
04-04-2008, 12:45 PM
The nano thing couldn't work on Luke but not because he couldn't get it into him, Tony uses an adamantium tipped needle when he injects it, that could probably get through Cage's skin, but the nanites worked against the gama radiation in Jen's body, Luke isn't radioactive.
But Tony being Tony he can probably take Luke down, there isn't a person on the planet that he's worked with that Tony hasn't planned to betray at one time or another. He's got a plan to take Luke down if he has too.
Mark_S
There's no probablies, he can and he has, he's already taxed his ass twice during CW. Once in his own comic and another time during the final battle in issue 7 before they got teleported into Manhattan.
Luke brings nothing to the table when he fights Iron Man.
Given Starks win-loss record fighting other heroes since CW, I'd give Cage even odds if he had to fight Stark, though I agree on paper Iron Man is more powerful. A weaker version of Cage took it to Doom, and Stark in his own arrogance would probably just underestimate Cage and leave Cage enough openings to expoit.
And I do agree Cage is anti-establishment... but I don't agree it's a paranoid anti-establishment. He's got plenty of valid reason not to trust the establishment since the very start of NA.
You're seriously going to put Luke Cage in the same level as Thor and the Hulk?? LMAOOOOO!!!
Post CW Iron Man's fought:
Thor - Loss
Hulk - Loss
Red Hulk - Draw
Winter Soldier - Draw, Iron Man could've beaten him rather easily had he wanted to fight and not talk
So out of the big fights IM's had his losses have come to two of the most powerful beings in the MU. nothing to be ashamed of.
Iron Man always struggles with the top tier guys, but can beat the street level biengs like Cage.
Tobias Drake
04-04-2008, 12:48 PM
There's no probablies, he can and he has, he's already taxed his ass twice during CW. Once in his own comic and another time during the final battle in issue 7 before they got teleported into Manhattan.
Luke brings nothing to the table when he fights Iron Man.
I'll agree with that. Other than vanilla metahuman strength, his only real edge is that his skin is unbreakable. Is his body unbreakable or just his skin? Because there are a lot of ways to bypass unbreakable skin; unbreakable skin just means you can't be cut. You're still vulnerable to everything else.
The nano thing, more accurately known as S.P.I.N.-Tech, worked against the gamma radiation in Jen's body because Jennifer Walters is who that particular S.P.I.N.-Tech was designed for. There was also S.P.I.N.-Tech built for Spider-Man, and although a case can be made that he's also radioactive, he's not gamma radioactive. Luke doesn't need to be radioactive for S.P.I.N. to be employed against him; they simply need to have Luke Cage S.P.I.N.-Tech commissioned.
That said...he's going to have to work pretty hard to be worth $50 million, which is what it would cost PER NEEDLE to employ S.P.I.N.-Tech against him. Since I really hope Tony's learned from Hulk why he should have more than one jab, that would probably ring up $200-300 million just to make sure there's enough in case the first attempt fails. Luke Cage isn't worth spending that kind of money.
Ya never know. I wouldn't think Spider-Man was worth that kind of money either, but that certainly didn't stop them from trying.
Mark_S
04-04-2008, 12:52 PM
I think you're underestimating him somewhat, and the fact that in comics who wins the fight is decided by the writer, no always by who should win the fight. I think that Luke could give Tony a good battle, his power is different but he brings a hard edge to the combat from a life on streets that Tony can't match. He'd loose, but not before getting some good hits in. And Tony's natural arogance could make him careless. And as to the spin being cost effective... I really don't see Tony being worried about money that much. Has he ever looked at a weapons system and said "Too expensive, can't make it."?
This does bring back Xpac's argument that Tony out of the way would make it easier for the team to combine. Luke hates Tony almost as much as some of the fans do, and Tony's natural "I'm in charge, obey me or I'll hurt you." philosophy of life doesn't help that at all. Luke might be more willing to listen to Carol.
Mark_S
Tobias Drake
04-04-2008, 01:02 PM
Ya never know. I wouldn't think Spider-Man was worth that kind of money either, but that certainly didn't stop them from trying.
I think Tony Stark took Spider-Man stabbing him in the back and turncoating to the enemy side as a personal offense. He really trusted Peter; he had a close, almost fatherly relationship with Peter through Amazing. I think he felt genuinely betrayed and he didn't handle it well, hence sending War Machine after him the way he did. Luke Cage hasn't done anything that comes even close to that.
I think you're underestimating him somewhat, and the fact that in comics who wins the fight is decided by the writer, no always by who should win the fight.
In the writer's defense, in real life, who wins the fight is decided by a multitude of factors, and not always just who should win the fight. A fight is not a direct matchup of stats and to the stronger go the win. There are a lot of varying factors that can sway the fight in any direction. On a good day, even Speedball could probably put in a good showing against Doom. It's never just a direct matchup of skills to determine who wins.
And as to the spin being cost effective... I really don't see Tony being worried about money that much. Has he ever looked at a weapons system and said "Too expensive, can't make it."?
I think even Tony has to acknowledge that he can't afford to make a dozen darts of S.P.I.N.-Tech for every single metahuman on the entire planet. 100 darts of S.P.I.N.-Tech alone, for maybe 10 to 20 metahumans, would cast $50 billion. Even a bottomless checkbook has to know where to draw the line.
Mark_S
04-04-2008, 01:08 PM
I think Tony Stark took Spider-Man stabbing him in the back and turncoating to the enemy side as a personal offense. He really trusted Peter; he had a close, almost fatherly relationship with Peter through Amazing. I think he felt genuinely betrayed and he didn't handle it well, hence sending War Machine after him the way he did. Luke Cage hasn't done anything that comes even close to that.
Funny, he thinks Peter stabbed him in the back, Peter thinks that Tony stabbed him in the back... There is just no way they should trust each other enough to fight together. The skrulls should really win this.
Mark_S
Tobias Drake
04-04-2008, 01:11 PM
Funny, he thinks Peter stabbed him in the back, Peter thinks that Tony stabbed him in the back... There is just no way they should trust each other enough to fight together. The skrulls should really win this.
Mark_S
When the world is at stake, petty grudges tend to take a backseat. This isn't like, "I don't trust you, so I don't want you in my home." You're talking about, "I don't trust you, so I'm going to let the entire world die to spite you." No halfway decent human being would do that.
Mark_S
04-04-2008, 01:19 PM
When the world is at stake, petty grudges tend to take a backseat. This isn't like, "I don't trust you, so I don't want you in my home." You're talking about, "I don't trust you, so I'm going to let the entire world die to spite you." No halfway decent human being would do that.
No, but this is also like "Ok, I'll trust you this time." and then once the back is turned a careless move on your allies part looks like he is attacking you, and you react taking your eyes off the real enemy. For in that split second you wonder if maybe your ally isn't going to solve two problems at once, taking you and the enemy out.
It comes down to how much Tony can be trust not to turn a situation to his advantage. Tony after all has nothing to fear from Peter, but Peter knows that given a chance Tony will put him into the nz prison and throw away the key. The fact that he hasn't done it so far doesn't help at all because there was always a reason for it. Where there is no trust there can be no true team work.
Mark_S
Iron_Stark
04-04-2008, 01:22 PM
Funny, he thinks Peter stabbed him in the back, Peter thinks that Tony stabbed him in the back... There is just no way they should trust each other enough to fight together. The skrulls should really win this.
Mark_S
Yeah, just like they didn't work together in WWH?
Dude get off it already, only you and a handful of other people will never side with Tony, we get it, but it's already in print that Spider-Man and other heroes will side with him during a global crisis.
Tobias Drake
04-04-2008, 01:24 PM
No, but this is also like "Ok, I'll trust you this time." and then once the back is turned a careless move on your allies part looks like he is attacking you, and you react taking your eyes off the real enemy. For in that split second you wonder if maybe your ally isn't going to solve two problems at once, taking you and the enemy out.
It comes down to how much Tony can be trust not to turn a situation to his advantage. Tony after all has nothing to fear from Peter, but Peter knows that given a chance Tony will put him into the nz prison and throw away the key. The fact that he hasn't done it so far doesn't help at all because there was always a reason for it. Where there is no trust there can be no true team work.
Mark_S
How many times have Xavier and Magneto teamed up to fight a common enemy? How many times have two opposing forces in general teamed up to fight a common enemy? "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"?
You don't have to trust someone and be best friends with them to work with them.
Iron_Stark
04-04-2008, 01:38 PM
I'll agree with that. Other than vanilla metahuman strength, his only real edge is that his skin is unbreakable. Is his body unbreakable or just his skin? Because there are a lot of ways to bypass unbreakable skin; unbreakable skin just means you can't be cut. You're still vulnerable to everything else.
It's been a while since I've read it, but in Nick Fury's Secret War, didn't Cage end up in the hospital because of a couple of bombs blew up on him? The two times he beat Cage was without any wepons, imagine if he's use his repulsars, missles, smart bombs, pulse bolts and more importantly his intelligence.
So far it's taken elite powerful beings or hacking into his armor to beat Iron Man, Cage isn't in the level of Thor or Hulk not even close and wouldn't know where to begin if he wanted to shut down Tony's armor.
Mark_S
04-04-2008, 01:39 PM
Yeah, just like they didn't work together in WWH?
Dude get off it already, only you and a handful of other people will never side with Tony, we get it, but it's already in print that Spider-Man and other heroes will side with him during a global crisis.
I didn't see them so much working together as getting beaten up together. And Peter's reaction to Tony showing up wasn't one of a person being happy to see him.
Mark_S
Mark_S
04-04-2008, 01:41 PM
How many times have Xavier and Magneto teamed up to fight a common enemy? How many times have two opposing forces in general teamed up to fight a common enemy? "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"?
You don't have to trust someone and be best friends with them to work with them.
And how long have those aliances lasted after the main enemy has been defeated? I'm not saying they won't, I'm just saying that if they do work together it won't be smooth, it won't be lasting and there for it won't really be as effective as it could be, and that could make all the difference.
Mark_S
Iron_Stark
04-04-2008, 01:44 PM
I didn't see them so much working together as getting beaten up together. And Peter's reaction to Tony showing up wasn't one of a person being happy to see him.
Mark_S
It doen't matter if they were happy see him, were they or weren't they there as a team to stop the Hulk and his crew?
Animalia
04-04-2008, 01:48 PM
I think Elektra is dead for good. This makes me sad :mad:
Mark_S
04-04-2008, 01:49 PM
It doen't matter if they were happy see him, were they or weren't they there as a team to stop the Hulk and his crew?
They were a team that failed. Maybe if the cw split had not happened the NA and the MA members might have done better than one splash page.
Mark_S
Iron_Stark
04-04-2008, 01:53 PM
They were a team that failed. Maybe if the cw split had not happened the NA and the MA members might have done better than one splash page.
Mark_S
But they were a team, earlier you said this
There is just no way they should trust each other enough to fight together.
flipflopping much?
Mark_S
04-04-2008, 02:02 PM
But they were a team, earlier you said this
flipflopping much?
Perhaps. I used team in a general sense, not a litteral one. To specify: the amount of anger, distrust and down right hatred between the NA and the MA should in my opinion make them working together a chancy proposition at best and an impossible one at worst. It should make it far easier for the skrulls to win, and while I will not be broken up if they do loose I won't be broken up if they win either.
Mark_S
StoneGold
04-04-2008, 02:24 PM
I think Elektra is dead for good. This makes me sad :mad:
It makes Frank Miller happy!
vitruvian
04-04-2008, 02:33 PM
The two times he beat Cage was without any wepons, imagine if he's use his repulsars, missles, smart bombs, pulse bolts and more importantly his intelligence.
Cage has fought Iron Man before, and his regular repulsor rays sting a bit but basically just bounce off. Evidently, even though he talks about having 'steel-hard skin', the rest of his body's tissues are pretty much just as tough, which you'd actually expect if he's able to use his superhuman strength without injuring himself.
You're still vulnerable to everything else.
Cage has always been tough against punches, kicks, lesser explosions, blasters, etc., not just bullets and knives. His skin *can* be penetrated by an overpowered laser for medical purposes, and he can certainly be injured by a *big enough* explosion, so it's quite possibe the recently upgraded Iron Man can hurt him worse than he thinks, but it is not and never has been the case that he's squishy and vulnerable as a normal guy inside a layer of hard skin.
vitruvian
04-04-2008, 02:37 PM
Tony has gone against Thor and Hulk, a power greater beyond what Luke is.
On the other hand, Luke beat Dr. Doom so hard his metal mask made a sad face, and Tony was recently shown as closely matched against Doom, so...
Yeah, just like they didn't work together in WWH?
Dude get off it already, only you and a handful of other people will never side with Tony, we get it, but it's already in print that Spider-Man and other heroes will side with him during a global crisis.
I'd consider the current situation a global crisis... but we're still seeing in fighting.
Plenty of people still don't trust Stark (which isn't terribly shocking considering his liberal usage of lies and manipulation), and unfortunately for him that lack of trust is coming back to bite a lot of people in the behind.
Like I said in a different thread, after what he did in Frontline I'd probably be thinking he was a skrull too if marvel didnt flat out say he wasn't (and the thought bubbles).
TotalWorldDomination
04-04-2008, 03:14 PM
I'd consider the current situation a global crisis... but we're still seeing in fighting.
Plenty of people still don't trust Stark (which isn't terribly shocking considering his liberal usage of lies and manipulation), and unfortunately for him that lack of trust is coming back to bite a lot of people in the behind.
Like I said in a different thread, after what he did in Frontline I'd probably be thinking he was a skrull too if marvel didnt flat out say he wasn't (and the thought bubbles).
AS you point out this is a different situation, this distrust and lack of enthusiasm to work together is motivated, not by personal dislike, but by the fact that most people think everyone else is an evil skrull.
Even if they were chummy and buddy-buddy when this all started, they'd stop trusting each other when this skrull business started. Particularly when that ship opened up and everyone's double came pouring out.
and lets not forget, your major reason not to trust stark is totally unknown to the general populace, so it's not like Danny Rand or Luke Cage is going to pull that logic out.
AS you point out this is a different situation, this distrust and lack of enthusiasm to work together is motivated, not by personal dislike, but by the fact that most people think everyone else is an evil skrull.
Even if they were chummy and buddy-buddy when this all started, they'd stop trusting each other when this skrull business started. Particularly when that ship opened up and everyone's double came pouring out.
and lets not forget, your major reason not to trust stark is totally unknown to the general populace, so it's not like Danny Rand or Luke Cage is going to pull that logic out.
Yes, but the reason they suspect he's a skrull is BECAUSE of the unethical dishonest way Stark has been handling himself. Tony himself even see's why they'd think he was a skrull.
mikekerr3
04-04-2008, 03:38 PM
But they were a team, earlier you said this
flipflopping much?
How about this? They was to much distust and hate arounf them for them to work together effectively. They wear a bunch of individuals working toward the same goal not really a team.
TotalWorldDomination
04-04-2008, 03:45 PM
Yes, but the reason they suspect he's a skrull is BECAUSE of the unethical dishonest way Stark has been handling himself. Tony himself even see's why they'd think he was a skrull.
Point taken. Tony is indeed a shady character, despite my proud defending of him, and has done some morally grey things in the name of the greater good. Of course it was my opinion that those things needed to be done (except for frontline of course that I still stick my fingers in my ears and yell la-la-la about as loudly as possible when someone asserts that it's cannon). If I were on the bad end of some of his chicanary, I'd assume he was a skrull too. Then again, if I were in this situation I'd assume that EVERYONE who was opposing my actions at any time was a skrull. That's the beauty of the concept.
Camron Amaya
04-04-2008, 03:50 PM
I really hope they don't just ignore Thor in all this. He's the protector of Earth...you'd think he'd notice some of this.
And how would you conquer Earth by ignoring one of it's biggest powers?
Dr. Chaos
04-04-2008, 03:55 PM
If the modern day heroes started a fight with the 70s heroes, on the hypothetical, with a Phoenix skrull duplicating Jean Grey's powers, shouldn't that fight be over pretty quickly if you take Sentry out of the equation?
They seem abit outmatched there, especialy with the Thor skrull.
Camron Amaya
04-04-2008, 04:01 PM
If the modern day heroes started a fight with the 70s heroes, on the hypothetical, with a Phoenix skrull duplicating Jean Grey's powers, shouldn't that fight be over pretty quickly if you take Sentry out of the equation?
They seem abit outmatched there, especialy with the Thor skrull.
Honestly I doubt the Skrull imposters are JUST AS powerful as the real thing. At least in the cases of the really big powers like that.
I really hope they don't just ignore Thor in all this. He's the protector of Earth...you'd think he'd notice some of this.
And how would you conquer Earth by ignoring one of it's biggest powers?
I was hoping that he'd be involved with all the Skrull god stuff that Herc is dealing with... but no mention of him as far as I can tell. Too bad.
If the modern day heroes started a fight with the 70s heroes, on the hypothetical, with a Phoenix skrull duplicating Jean Grey's powers, shouldn't that fight be over pretty quickly if you take Sentry out of the equation?
They seem abit outmatched there, especialy with the Thor skrull.
Man for man, the modern day heroes are outmatched. Plus, they're down Tony, who is one of their big guns. They're powerful enough to make it a real fight, but unless Sentry really cuts lose odds are they'll go down.
Which is fine. At the start of the book, I'm cool with the heroes getting their lumps. Assuming the 70's heroes are the badguys, they'll get theirs in the final battle.
Dr. Chaos
04-04-2008, 04:30 PM
Honestly I doubt the Skrull imposters are JUST AS powerful as the real thing. At least in the cases of the really big powers like that.
Obviously not as powerful as the real god but even so, I'm guessing he's still quite powerful, same for Phoenix Skrull.
Mark_S
04-04-2008, 05:45 PM
Just a thought, but what if this could explain Avengers Dissasembled? What if the skrulls put in a fake Scarlet Witch but botched it when they tried to duplicate her powers, driving thier agent crazy and resulting in the out of control Wanda we saw then.
Mark_S
Kirk G
04-04-2008, 06:00 PM
Just a thought, but what if this could explain Avengers Dissasembled? What if the skrulls put in a fake Scarlet Witch but botched it when they tried to duplicate her powers, driving thier agent crazy and resulting in the out of control Wanda we saw then.
Mark_S
Nice theory, but we are still left with the results of her altering reality.:confused:
hysang
04-04-2008, 06:03 PM
Didn't the first issue of the current Thor series state that if he had remained in oblivion/limbo, then he would not be there to turn the tide at a crucial moment? Something tells me that the moment is NOW.
Just a thought, but what if this could explain Avengers Dissasembled? What if the skrulls put in a fake Scarlet Witch but botched it when they tried to duplicate her powers, driving thier agent crazy and resulting in the out of control Wanda we saw then.
Mark_S
If the skrulls are powerful enough to create reality warpers like the Scarlet Witch then earth really doesn't stand a chance.
That's the thing about the Silent Invasion... they're duplicating some pretty darn powerful people. Black Bolt, Phoenix, Scarlet With, Thor... if they can do this, why even bother being sneaky. Just go down there and open up a can of whoop @$$.
SquidSquod
04-04-2008, 06:29 PM
Cage has fought Iron Man before, and his regular repulsor rays sting a bit but basically just bounce off. Evidently, even though he talks about having 'steel-hard skin', the rest of his body's tissues are pretty much just as tough, which you'd actually expect if he's able to use his superhuman strength without injuring himself.
Cage has always been tough against punches, kicks, lesser explosions, blasters, etc., not just bullets and knives. His skin *can* be penetrated by an overpowered laser for medical purposes, and he can certainly be injured by a *big enough* explosion, so it's quite possibe the recently upgraded Iron Man can hurt him worse than he thinks, but it is not and never has been the case that he's squishy and vulnerable as a normal guy inside a layer of hard skin.
Luke is not invulnerable to heat, adamantium, electrocution, and concussive impact. Iron Man can create flamethrower, generate electricity, magnetize Wolverine against Cage (last measure :D) and fly on Mach 6 speed before hitting Cage. Plus Iron Man is of 80 ton power minimum, Cage is of 30 ton power so that's a lot of difference.
That Doom vs Luke is a just a give away. Magic is supreme. He can beat most Avengers team except the heavy hitters.
Mark_S
04-04-2008, 06:40 PM
If the skrulls are powerful enough to create reality warpers like the Scarlet Witch then earth really doesn't stand a chance.
That's the thing about the Silent Invasion... they're duplicating some pretty darn powerful people. Black Bolt, Phoenix, Scarlet With, Thor... if they can do this, why even bother being sneaky. Just go down there and open up a can of whoop @$$.
That is the danger of this series. It is my fear that at the end the skrulls will loose because they suddenly forget how to throw a switch or something. Marvel doesn't have a great track record with ending these mega events.
That is a good test though, just have the Thor that came out of the ship whip up a thunder storm.
Mark_S
CyberCoyote
04-04-2008, 06:42 PM
If the skrulls are powerful enough to create reality warpers like the Scarlet Witch then earth really doesn't stand a chance.
That's the thing about the Silent Invasion... they're duplicating some pretty darn powerful people. Black Bolt, Phoenix, Scarlet With, Thor... if they can do this, why even bother being sneaky. Just go down there and open up a can of whoop @$$.
Because it wouldn't be YEARS in the making?
It's a fun read, but between the being undetectable and the possibility of duplicating the powers of such amazingly tough heroes they really are doing things the hard way. But then again ANYONE could kill most heroes if they wanted to. Good old bullet's or a shiv would take out anyone not invulnerable all the time. Poison gas (not knockout gas) when they least expect it. So if I can accept that the Wizard hasn't figure out that to kill The Torch or Sue all he has to do is hire a sniper with a silencer and take 'em out when they're in their civies (Johnny got KO'd by a beer bottle fer cryin' out loud), then I guess I have to accept that these Skrulls won't just imitate a loved one then whack the competition.
For the sake of comics they have to be monumentally stupid :)
That is the danger of this series. It is my fear that at the end the skrulls will loose because they suddenly forget how to throw a switch or something. Marvel doesn't have a great track record with ending these mega events.
That is a good test though, just have the Thor that came out of the ship whip up a thunder storm.
Mark_S
Not just marvel... marvel and dc both tend to show some level of deficiency when it comes to creating a big finish. I'm hoping for a nice big "Avengers Assemble" moment myself... we haven't got a lot of those since they got Disassembled.
But if there's an entire skrull fleet, this probably isn't a problem that can be beaten by pure brute force. They probably will need some sort of deux ex machina to save the day. Bendis has said on a few occasions that there will be a power shift, so he's got something planned.
SquidSquod
04-04-2008, 07:14 PM
^ That Deus Ex Machina vehicles are Reed Richards, Tony Stark, and perhaps Victor von Doom. I think at the end it's gonna be a payback. Tony Stark is gonna stun the whole fleet and Reed actually shoot the head guy of Skrull.
Because it wouldn't be YEARS in the making?
It's a fun read, but between the being undetectable and the possibility of duplicating the powers of such amazingly tough heroes they really are doing things the hard way. But then again ANYONE could kill most heroes if they wanted to. Good old bullet's or a shiv would take out anyone not invulnerable all the time. Poison gas (not knockout gas) when they least expect it. So if I can accept that the Wizard hasn't figure out that to kill The Torch or Sue all he has to do is hire a sniper with a silencer and take 'em out when they're in their civies (Johnny got KO'd by a beer bottle fer cryin' out loud), then I guess I have to accept that these Skrulls won't just imitate a loved one then whack the competition.
For the sake of comics they have to be monumentally stupid :)
Skrulls have to be doubtly careful not to be stupid though.
If Wizard does something stupid, he just ends up in jail.
But if the Skrulls do something stupid, they end up being turned into cows.
timomcshade
04-04-2008, 07:55 PM
Hey guys I was just on MySpace Comic Books and there is and interview with Joe Q. I touches on many topics but starts off with Secret Invasion stuff. There are slight spoilers. Read at your own risk.
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=92159514&blogID=374013178
gunnerfan69
04-04-2008, 08:26 PM
Some theories I have in no particular order...
1. Some of the heroes aboard the ship are real some are skrulls (just like in the books)
2. Spider Woman is still doing the multiple agent (she's so far past double now) thing and is still working with Nick Fury who was the first to figure out the skrull thing (meaning Captain America might have been one so Nick let him get 'popped' by the Red Skull).
3. Captain Marvel is really a bad guy and his Kreeness comes out in the end. (Which in my opinion would piss me off as bringing him back in the first place was idiotic)
4. The Skrulls manipulated Wanda (she was talking to someone in 'Disassembled') and eventually she sees that she really does have kids and somehow transfers her anger towards the Skrulls (and kills off Clint once more to make it three times only to resurrect him whenever the mood is right).
5. Reed being the smartest man on earth already transmitted how the Skrulls did it (go undetectable) before getting a blast to the face and also used an image inducer on Pym because as he was figuring it out he realized that Hammering Hack was one of 'them'
6. One of Wolverines 'memories' that was restored was the one where he replaced the original - hence him being on just about every team in the Marvel universe.
I have more but i can't remember them all. Also don't believe a word they say in interviews. I seem to recall them 'swearing' a major character didn't die in Civil War (which if Capt. America was a Skrull then they'd be right...damn them). :mad:
Last thing. The next time DC is better than Marvel will be the first time. ;)
Jackob
04-04-2008, 08:35 PM
6. One of Wolverines 'memories' that was restored was the one where he replaced the original - hence him being on just about every team in the Marvel universe.
Last thing. The next time DC is better than Marvel will be the first time. ;)
no way does wolverine turn out to be a skrull, and if he is a skrull than he has been for like 5 minnets. the costume that comes out of the ship is from hulk 182. that would mean that all of the wolverine storys we read are a skrull.
no going to hapen
4. The Skrulls manipulated Wanda (she was talking to someone in 'Disassembled') and eventually she sees that she really does have kids and somehow transfers her anger towards the Skrulls (and kills off Clint once more to make it three times only to resurrect him whenever the mood is right).
That may end up being the deux ex machina that saves the day (I don't want Reed stopping the skrulls as usual... I want this to kind o be an Avengers event).
And it would kind of bring everything full circle in regards to Bendis big events... Disassembled, House of M and Secret Invasion would almost make for a nice little trilogy.
And saving the world from skrulls brings about an nice big of redemption for Wanda too. All around, that works pretty well.
SquidSquod
04-04-2008, 08:54 PM
Well Magic Deus Ex Machina is uglier than a Tech/Team effort Deus Ex Machina. Remember One More Day?
I don't Marvel wants to have another "It's Magic" scheme. This is eventually a team determination of mostly Avengers, redemption of Tony Stark, and Reed showing his mastery over the Skrulls. Wanda can be redeemed but giving her the spotlight is a waste. The douchebags of CW have more stake on the redemptions and especially two of them are Marvel Icons. Wanda is not an icon and she'll be integrated slowly back to the mainstream.
Well Magic Deus Ex Machina is uglier than a Tech/Team effort Deus Ex Machina. Remember One More Day?
I don't Marvel wants to have another "It's Magic" scheme. This is eventually a team determination of mostly Avengers, redemption of Tony Stark, and Reed showing his mastery over the Skrulls. Wanda can be redeemed but giving her the spotlight is a waste. The douchebags of CW have more stake on the redemptions and especially two of them are Marvel Icons. Wanda is not an icon and she'll be integrated slowly back to the mainstream.
I don't agree that giving Wanda the spotlight is a waste at all.
Reed has his own book, and Tony has or will have like 3. Them not getting the spotlight isn't exactly a tragidy. Wanda is completely off the board... and Bendis is the one that took her off so I almost think Bendis owes it to the character to bring her back in a big way anyways.
Plus, Reed showing his mastery over skrulls has been done before. Really that's how the skrulls are always beaten.
SquidSquod
04-04-2008, 09:14 PM
I don't agree that giving Wanda the spotlight is a waste at all.
Reed has his own book, and Tony has or will have like 3. Them not getting the spotlight isn't exactly a tragidy. Wanda is completely off the board... and Bendis is the one that took her off so I almost think Bendis owes it to the character to bring her back in a big way anyways.
Plus, Reed showing his mastery over skrulls has been done before. Really that's how the skrulls are always beaten.
Wanda doesn't have a book. It's a waste because giving her the spotlight won't make people buy any book because the book is not existent a ka she'll be back on the Avengers comics. Certainly people don't buy Avengers book because of Scarlett Witch but mostly because of the other forefront characters. Scarlett Witch is not a necessary component of the Avengers and not many people miss her hiatus.
Reed and Tony have books, and interest on the books need to be fueled by character feats. Mr. Fantastic needs a payback for what the Skrull's done to his family, and Iron Man is geared to be the Batman of the MU. So if you're a business you want to put the investment on the slots that generate more money.
GRANT!
04-04-2008, 09:16 PM
I dug it. It wasn't perfect but a whole lot of fun (much like Bendis Avengers stuff).
I was a bit bummed the three big Skrull reveals were the ones people already guessed. But otherwise I thought the art looked sharp and that reveal of the 70s heros was great.
THough this article really depressed me. (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=152565) Yikes. I might just stick with the main mini and the Avengers books. I mean those Civil War tie ins weren't that necessary.
Wanda doesn't have a book. It's a waste because giving her the spotlight won't make people buy any book because the book is not existent a ka she'll be back on the Avengers comics. Certainly people don't buy Avengers book because of Scarlett Witch but mostly because of the other forefront characters. Scarlett Witch is not a necessary component of the Avengers and not many people miss her hiatus.
Reed and Tony have books, and interest on the books need to be fueled by character feats. Mr. Fantastic needs a payback for what the Skrull's done to his family, and Iron Man is geared to be the Batman of the MU. So if you're a business you want to put the investment on the slots that generate more money.
Using that logic, they might as well have Spider-Man and Wolverine beat the skrulls.
THough this article really depressed me. (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=152565) Yikes. I might just stick with the main mini and the Avengers books. I mean those Civil War tie ins weren't that necessary.
It can add up.
I think for some of that stuff, you can probably just wait for the trades. It really does sound like an Avengers story more than anything else anyways.
SquidSquod
04-04-2008, 09:29 PM
Using that logic, they might as well have Spider-Man and Wolverine beat the skrulls.
Yeah, but Bendis won't use them. Read his interviews and why Reed and Stark have more stakes on the others. Reed because he's a Skrull DDT. Tony because he's like leader of the heroes. Bendis mentions both without the rest.
Besides, Spidey and Wolvie comics sales won't get easily influenced by arcs. The comics have achieved mass saturations so Marvel won't really need to jack up more points into them.
Yeah, but Bendis won't use them. Read his interviews and why Reed and Stark have more stakes on the others. Reed because he's a Skrull DDT. Tony because he's like leader of the heroes. Bendis mentions both without the rest.
Besides, Spidey and Wolvie comics sales won't get easily influenced by arcs. The comics have achieved mass saturations so Marvel won't really need to jack up more points into them.
I guess I don't buy the arguement that Bendis will only spotlight characters that have their own books. In Disassembled, the guy that ended up saving the day was Dr. Strange. A very cool character to be sure... but certainly not an icon who had his own book.
In House of M, Wolverine was the star at the beginning... but really it was Emma, Dr. Strange, and Layla that were the key figures in the end. And again, none of them are huge icons with their own books.
I'm not saying that Reed or Tony couldn't be the big heroes in the end... but in the same breath I don't think Bendis gives a dam whether Wanda is an icon or not. I think he's use whatever character fits the story best, even if they're not icons. That's what he did in his previous big events.
SquidSquod
04-04-2008, 10:00 PM
Dr. Strange is Avengers Disassembled to have to fight magic, you use magic scheme. Nothing else. Again in House of M, the magic wielders shine because to alter reality you need a believable character to do it. Not Wolverine or Spider-Man.
I stand on my belief that Mr. Fantastic will have his revenge. Splattered with a ray gun and his families are targeted in the explosion are big enough casus belli. Iron Man is the Iron Man of today. Time to show what he's capable off so no matter how scumbag he is, people will still buy his book on the course of his feats. And that's how people respect Dr. Doom and Batman right?
Wanda can be rehabilitated and reinstated in the Avengers. I like this prospect of having Wanda becomes an Avenger filling the void left by Avengers who turned out to be Skrull. She may have some feats to undo the Skrulls. But as the ultimate nullifier of Skrulls? No! People are sick already with magic as a plot device because of One More Day and the arcs before. Without magic the whole Avengers team can shine because each member can play its part because there's no single word "Abracadabra" and poof, the Skrulls and their children gets poisoned thing.
Animalia
04-04-2008, 10:30 PM
Dr. Strange is Avengers Disassembled to have to fight magic, you use magic scheme. Nothing else. Again in House of M, the magic wielders shine because to alter reality you need a believable character to do it. Not Wolverine or Spider-Man.
I stand on my belief that Mr. Fantastic will have his revenge. Splattered with a ray gun and his families are targeted in the explosion are big enough casus belli. Iron Man is the Iron Man of today. Time to show what he's capable off so no matter how scumbag he is, people will still buy his book on the course of his feats. And that's how people respect Dr. Doom and Batman right?
Wanda can be rehabilitated and reinstated in the Avengers. I like this prospect of having Wanda becomes an Avenger filling the void left by Avengers who turned out to be Skrull. She may have some feats to undo the Skrulls. But as the ultimate nullifier of Skrulls? No! People are sick already with magic as a plot device because of One More Day and the arcs before. Without magic the whole Avengers team can shine because each member can play its part because there's no single word "Abracadabra" and poof, the Skrulls and their children gets poisoned thing.
Isn't it a bit odd that Dr. Strange never went to go looking for Wanda after Clint found her? Maybe he sees her as a threat.....a threat to the skrull empire!
Isn't it a bit odd that Dr. Strange never went to go looking for Wanda after Clint found her? Maybe he sees her as a threat.....a threat to the skrull empire!
I would think that might actualy be a pretty good reason to go after her... though perhaps Strange (skrull or not) felt it was better to just leave well enough alone.
jackolover
04-04-2008, 11:35 PM
Agreed. I think that Luke could hang with Tony. Even if he could not, that is no reason for him to cower. Sometimes the victory comes not in winning the fight, but letting fascist know that you will not just blindly obey. The struggle is the victory because it inspires others, and any system that has to constantly resort to violence to stay in power will crumble, even if it's just do to depleting resources. I like Cage's character. He is the unsung heart of the Avenger's Universe.
See, that's what I can't reconcile between Luke and Tony. They both started on the same team together. They fought side by side in the New Avengers until NA #20.
Then, something happened, (I don't know what), and after what seemed like a dream, Luke and Tony weren't friends anymore, the team was split apart, and they were enemies for some reason. Tony and Luke never stepped outside and addressed their differences. They weren't that far apart in the New Avengers, so what makes them so antagonistic towards each other.
I would like to see and one shot where Tony comes to arrest Luke Cake and they go at it. Because the dialogue would be just diamonds.
SquidSquod
04-04-2008, 11:43 PM
If She-Hulk and Iron Man can simmer down their antagonism with an "I am sorry" scribble in the last She-Hulk, so can Luke Cage and Iron Man.
jackolover
04-04-2008, 11:44 PM
There would be obvious downsides to having Tony put out given how powerful he is. Yet I can't help but feel that the second Tony is out of the equation, the MA and NA will be able to function together as a single unit far more effectively. I do think Carol and Luke can co-exist without too much trust issues despite Carols involvement in the now infamous Cap trap.
Also... it's kinda cool that once Tony is out, Spidey becomes the smartest person in the room.
Will ther be 2 Avengers teams if the enmity between the NA and MA disappears? I don't think so. The only reason the secret Avengers existed was because they thought the Mighty Avengers were turncoats. Once thats resolved, why would they need two teams?
I'll agree with that. Other than vanilla metahuman strength, his only real edge is that his skin is unbreakable. Is his body unbreakable or just his skin? Because there are a lot of ways to bypass unbreakable skin; unbreakable skin just means you can't be cut. You're still vulnerable to everything else.
Sometimes there's a contradiction about how you can injure Cage. In one case, an explosion injured his internal organs and they had trouble operating. In another case, he is hit though the air, through a building, and lands in a pile of rubble, and he just gets back up, dusts himself off, and says 'Excuse me ladies'.
jackolover
04-05-2008, 12:06 AM
If the skrulls are powerful enough to create reality warpers like the Scarlet Witch then earth really doesn't stand a chance.
That's the thing about the Silent Invasion... they're duplicating some pretty darn powerful people. Black Bolt, Phoenix, Scarlet With, Thor... if they can do this, why even bother being sneaky. Just go down there and open up a can of whoop @$$.
Black Bolt wasn't all that powerful. When he said his first words, nothing powerful happened. He had to basically cause a power blast before the explosion occurred. I don't think the Skrull duplicates are any match for the real deal. All this is doing is keeping the Avengers distracted, but that won't last for long, and then the Avengers will be back.
But that's IF this turns into a fight. We don't know as yet that it will. If it doesn't end in fight scenes, what we might see is a confusion of characters that won't go the next step to kill someone to find Skrulls, and then you have a whole mess of characters confused - just like the Skrulls want them.
jackolover
04-05-2008, 12:22 AM
2. Spider Woman is still doing the multiple agent (she's so far past double now) thing and is still working with Nick Fury who was the first to figure out the skrull thing (meaning Captain America might have been one so Nick let him get 'popped' by the Red Skull).
Wheels within wheels. I could come at Spiderwoman being a triple (quadruple.... multiple...?) agent still working for SHIELD, and sending the NA to the Savage Land, being part of a more elaborate plan by Fury.
If the Skrulls have people who are infiltrating the humans, then it stands to reason that the Humans have a backup plan, on the occassion that this happens.
Winter Bolt
04-05-2008, 02:19 AM
I will be hoping that all the heroes coming out of the savage land ship are good guys. I'd be most pleased if they all were the real deal and had somehow escaped the skrulls and they managed to shut down skrull tony who didn't want the ship opened. That would make me happy, it would make Tony super awesome, and it would get rid of stupid extremis. If not.. eh, I'd hope they were still good guys, but were regular skrulls. Or they could be real heroes from a pocket dimension which would be cool too. I hope they are good guys, be a shame if they were bad guys. The issues was very awesome! 5 stars and a 10/10 wouldn't do it justice. Might just be the best Marvel issue I've seen all year but I may have to reserve that and say SI might be the best arc all year.
Magneto Rocks
04-05-2008, 04:00 AM
See, that's what I can't reconcile between Luke and Tony. They both started on the same team together. They fought side by side in the New Avengers until NA #20.
Then, something happened, (I don't know what), and after what seemed like a dream, Luke and Tony weren't friends anymore, the team was split apart, and they were enemies for some reason. Tony and Luke never stepped outside and addressed their differences. They weren't that far apart in the New Avengers, so what makes them so antagonistic towards each other.
I would like to see and one shot where Tony comes to arrest Luke Cake and they go at it. Because the dialogue would be just diamonds.
I honestly think it's like with Cap- each of them feels betrayed by the other. Cage feels betrayed by Tony's willingness to enforce the law- a law he sees as wrong, and feels it's treachery from Tony. Tony, on the other hand, feels Cage is betraying all their ideals and possibly ruining the future of super heroes by running off in some half-cocked resistance movement instead of working to make things better. As far as Cage is concerned, Tony has betrayed super heroes in general, as far as Tony's concerned, Cage is being an idiot and possibly ruining any hope of a future for super herodom and the world.
I don't think it needs words to summarise it.
scouse mouse
04-05-2008, 05:13 AM
Really good issue,lots of things going on and Yu's art looks amazing when he is inked properly and has a good colourist to work with. A few more reveals would have been nice but we still have a long way to go! Reading Bendis's interview Iam surprised that Invisible Woman has actually been replaced and not just impersonated for Lyja's Baxter building mission. Guess Im going to have to get the FF mini now as well! And going from that smirk on Spider Womans face, that b*tch is most definitely a Skrull.
Mark_S
04-05-2008, 05:22 AM
If She-Hulk and Iron Man can simmer down their antagonism with an "I am sorry" scribble in the last She-Hulk, so can Luke Cage and Iron Man.
I think that Tony used some sort of mind control to make Jen cool down. maybe that note was coated with a drug.
Mark_S
Magneto Rocks
04-05-2008, 05:26 AM
Or maybe Shulkie's been reconsidering her cousin's innocence in lieu of his attempted mass murder and destruction of New York. Who can say, really?
jackolover
04-05-2008, 06:37 AM
I honestly think it's like with Cap- each of them feels betrayed by the other. Cage feels betrayed by Tony's willingness to enforce the law- a law he sees as wrong, and feels it's treachery from Tony. Tony, on the other hand, feels Cage is betraying all their ideals and possibly ruining the future of super heroes by running off in some half-cocked resistance movement instead of working to make things better. As far as Cage is concerned, Tony has betrayed super heroes in general, as far as Tony's concerned, Cage is being an idiot and possibly ruining any hope of a future for super herodom and the world.
I don't think it needs words to summarise it.
Yeah, it's not very likely, because after SI these two, Tony and Luke, will have reconciled anyway. There would be no need to arrest Cage if future.
agrich
04-05-2008, 06:42 AM
People keep saying that Jessica Drew getting both teams of Avengers into the Savage Land means she's a Skrull. I think it might just mean she's trying to end the tension and distrust between them, and what better way than getting them to team up to fight a world-threatening danger like a Skrull invasion?
Jarvis didn't do anything because the Skrulls want both teams of Avengers there. Jessica figured he wouldn't stop her tipping the New Avengers off because she thinks he, like her, wants the teams to reconcile.
I don't think she's a Skrull.
spidarwin
04-05-2008, 07:08 AM
People keep saying that Jessica Drew getting both teams of Avengers into the Savage Land means she's a Skrull. I think it might just mean she's trying to end the tension and distrust between them, and what better way than getting them to team up to fight a world-threatening danger like a Skrull invasion?
Jarvis didn't do anything because the Skrulls want both teams of Avengers there. Jessica figured he wouldn't stop her tipping the New Avengers off because she thinks he, like her, wants the teams to reconcile.
I don't think she's a Skrull.
She's a Skrull.
So's the Black Widow seen in the last panel of the Savage Land scene in SI#1. So's the Ares depicted there.
Everyone else has a Skrull counterpart who came out of the ship.
And I, for one, think there's got to be some sort of genius involved in trying to make a Skrull seem like an android.
agrich
04-05-2008, 07:38 AM
Sounds like you've got it all figured out.
Mark_S
04-05-2008, 08:10 AM
Or maybe Shulkie's been reconsidering her cousin's innocence in lieu of his attempted mass murder and destruction of New York. Who can say, really?
And Tony's sleeping with her and then depowering her and dumping her peniless in a torn uniform in New Jersy? Actually Peter David explained about the not in the Hulk forum She-Hulk thread. My own theory is that the marvel writers are all men and don't really think any of what he did to her was so bad. It'll be interesting to see her part in SI with her new skrull bounty hunting partner.
Mark_S
Will ther be 2 Avengers teams if the enmity between the NA and MA disappears? I don't think so. The only reason the secret Avengers existed was because they thought the Mighty Avengers were turncoats. Once thats resolved, why would they need two teams?
There will still be 2 Avenger teams because of the law.
Even if the MA give up trying to arrest the NA, the NA are still criminals. It's the same reason why Black Widow can't partner up with Bucky anymore... he's unregistered, and the MA can't be seen working with an unregistered combatant.
I think it's very possilbe the relationships between the 2 teams will improve and they'll work together secretly when it's necessary... but there has to be 2 teams.
I think that Tony used some sort of mind control to make Jen cool down. maybe that note was coated with a drug.
Mark_S
I think the real answer is that Loed wanted to throw She-Hulk in there like nothing was different, even though every other writer is having her still very mad and distrustful of Stark. Loed wasn't on the same page as everyone else.
I suppose the easiest sollution would be if Loebs She-Hulk is a skrull.
agrich
04-05-2008, 08:49 AM
Pretty sure they could come up with a plausible rationalization for five Avengers teams if Bendis had the inclination to write five Avengers books.
See, that's what I can't reconcile between Luke and Tony. They both started on the same team together. They fought side by side in the New Avengers until NA #20.
Then, something happened, (I don't know what), and after what seemed like a dream, Luke and Tony weren't friends anymore, the team was split apart, and they were enemies for some reason. Tony and Luke never stepped outside and addressed their differences. They weren't that far apart in the New Avengers, so what makes them so antagonistic towards each other.
I would like to see and one shot where Tony comes to arrest Luke Cake and they go at it. Because the dialogue would be just diamonds.
A big part of it is simply the fact that Tony wants to arrest Cage, while Cage doesn't want to be arrested.
From Cages perspective, there's a feeling that Tony is a jack @$$ (and he is... though a more well meaning one that Cage probably thinks). The Cap trap pretty much cemented any dislike Cage had for the guy.
From Tony's side, at first he felt like it was his job to arrest the NA, so he tried to do it hoping he could end it all everyone would be one happy family again. He probably should have realized that after the speech he gave Spidey in the negative zone (whether it was a lie or not), that probably wasn't going to happen... but that's what he hoped.
They were comrades, but I don't think they were ever really friends or anything. They just both believe the other is wrong.
Pretty sure they could come up with a plausible rationalization for five Avengers teams if Bendis had the inclination to write five Avengers books.
With a 50 states Inititative, they could actually rationalize 50 Avengers teams if they wanted.
She's a Skrull.
So's the Black Widow seen in the last panel of the Savage Land scene in SI#1. So's the Ares depicted there.
Everyone else has a Skrull counterpart who came out of the ship.
And I, for one, think there's got to be some sort of genius involved in trying to make a Skrull seem like an android.
I don't think both Black WIdow and Spider-Woman can be skrulls. If they both were, she wouldn't be trying to grill Jessica over her power boost.
Either one of them is real, both are, or one of them is the kree spy.
Iron_Stark
04-05-2008, 08:56 AM
Yeah, it's not very likely, because after SI these two, Tony and Luke, will have reconciled anyway. There would be no need to arrest Cage if future.
Stealing a Quinjet? Luke needs to get arrested like the common criminal that he is.
He's a deadbeat dad, a theif, an outlaw, and a poor excuse for a leader of the team.
If he's running things while Reed and Tony are incapacitated, then 1. everyone is in for a world of sh1t, or 2. Bendis' manlove for him has gone to a ridiculous new level and this series isn't going to be worth 2 sh1ts.
agrich
04-05-2008, 08:59 AM
With a 50 states Inititative, they could actually rationalize 50 Avengers teams if they wanted.
Yeah, but I'm talking about titles they could actually sell.
Big Red Spider
04-05-2008, 09:40 AM
I thought it was weird that Tony told Hank and Reed that the Avengers went to Japan and discovered the Skrull. I would have thought that he would call them Renegades or Underground or Cap's team or The Fugitive Avengers. I guess just saying Avengers was less complicated.
Bingo!
04-05-2008, 11:00 AM
I don't think both Black WIdow and Spider-Woman can be skrulls. If they both were, she wouldn't be trying to grill Jessica over her power boost.
Either one of them is real, both are, or one of them is the kree spy.
You just blew my mind. Kree spies???
I was not expecting any Krees in this at all. Do you have any past issues that might suggest this? I suppose if the Skrulls are involved the Kree will definitely make a move.
Mark_S
04-05-2008, 11:11 AM
With a 50 states Inititative, they could actually rationalize 50 Avengers teams if they wanted.
There just aren't enough supervillains to go around. An anthology title might work, rotating teams of writers and artist featuring a seperate arch for each state. Much as I hate the concept of the shra I have to admit that the titles might be intriguing.
Mark_S
Mark_S
04-05-2008, 11:14 AM
Stealing a Quinjet? Luke needs to get arrested like the common criminal that he is.
He's a deadbeat dad, a theif, an outlaw, and a poor excuse for a leader of the team.
If he's running things while Reed and Tony are incapacitated, then 1. everyone is in for a world of sh1t, or 2. Bendis' manlove for him has gone to a ridiculous new level and this series isn't going to be worth 2 sh1ts.
Well let's see, deadbeat dad? Maybe, Jessica left him and there was no official divorce that I know of, and she's not really hurting for money right now being housed in Stark Tower. Tony himself has treated far more women far worse that Luke has. A thief? Yes, but where Luke is an honest theif Tony steals from behind the badge (whether he gives the money away Robin Hook like is still open to debate), poor leadership... that's debateable. At least Luke did not form a secret society that kidnaped and exiled someone into outerspace and then goaded the skrulls into their current attack.
Gotta be careful who you compare people too in the mu.
Mark_S
Camron Amaya
04-05-2008, 12:34 PM
Stealing a Quinjet? Luke needs to get arrested like the common criminal that he is.
He's a deadbeat dad, a theif, an outlaw, and a poor excuse for a leader of the team.
If he's running things while Reed and Tony are incapacitated, then 1. everyone is in for a world of sh1t, or 2. Bendis' manlove for him has gone to a ridiculous new level and this series isn't going to be worth 2 sh1ts.
Who hasn't taken something in the Marvel universe without permission? And they all took it together.
Most of these heroes can't even have or hold a marrige. He's not a deadbeat dad at all. I've never seen anything since the start of NA that shows he's a deadbeat dad. Nothing.
Everyone else with him is an outlaw too I don't see you bashing them.
You keep talking about Bendis having a mancrush on Luke, yet you're the one with a hard-on for him in every thread. Everytime I enter one it's you talking about Luke all vicious like he cheated on you or something Lol.
Your whole post is like the 80 year old white lady stuck in the past, yelling about the young Black hoodlums! Thiefs! Criminals! Bad fathers! Turn down that noise you ruffians!
:confused:
Gnarl
04-05-2008, 12:55 PM
Did the Molecule Man just escape? Has he had a power-down? Last I heard of him, he could fix this whole thing by himself.
What a big dissapointment. Yet again Yu's art was bland and predictable and the pace of the story was painfully slow. If it didn't impact the MU i wouldn't buy another issue.
agrich
04-05-2008, 01:10 PM
If it didn't impact the MU i wouldn't buy another issue.
You could always just read the recaps....
I thought it was weird that Tony told Hank and Reed that the Avengers went to Japan and discovered the Skrull. I would have thought that he would call them Renegades or Underground or Cap's team or The Fugitive Avengers. I guess just saying Avengers was less complicated.
He's called them Avengers before, so it's not that weird.
But yes, since New Avengers are marvels top selling on-going book, calling them Avengers probably is less complicated than calling them something else in the book while marketing them by another name.
I think the MA consider them Avengers, even if the government doesn't officially recognize them as such.
Iron_Stark
04-05-2008, 01:36 PM
Well let's see, deadbeat dad? Maybe, Jessica left him and there was no official divorce that I know of, and she's not really hurting for money right now being housed in Stark Tower. Tony himself has treated far more women far worse that Luke has. A thief? Yes, but where Luke is an honest theif Tony steals from behind the badge (whether he gives the money away Robin Hook like is still open to debate), poor leadership... that's debateable. At least Luke did not form a secret society that kidnaped and exiled someone into outerspace and then goaded the skrulls into their current attack.
Gotta be careful who you compare people too in the mu.
Mark_S
An honest theif? GTF outta here with that sh!t. Motor vehicle theft is a felony, it was Cage's idea to STEAL the Quinjet. He's a felon.
He's a deadbeat dad and a poor excuse of a husband because he cares about himself more than his wife and child. I'm sure if they were hurting for money, he's "honestly steal it"
Poor leadership because all he's done is get him and his teams asses kicked on a daily basis.
LMAO so now it's Stark's fault for the Skrull invasion? haha I guess the rest of the Illuminati had nothing to do with it? Stark forced to the Skrull world? What issue was that?
I guess the Skrulls never wanted to invade the planet until Stark goaded them?!?
There you have it, everything that's been written about the Skrull and thier attempts to invade this planet have been B.S., they only want to invade because of Stark! Stan Lee and Jack Kirby are full of crap, because Mark_S has figured it out.
Mark_S
04-05-2008, 01:42 PM
An honest theif? GTF outta here with that sh!t. Motor vehicle theft is a felony, it was Cage's idea to STEAL the Quinjet. He's a felon.
He's a deadbeat dad and a poor excuse of a husband because he cares about himself more than his wife and child. I'm sure if they were hurting for money, he's "honestly steal it"
Poor leadership because all he's done is get him and his teams asses kicked on a daily basis.
Really? So who captured the Hood and found skrull elecktra in the first place? Stealing the quinjet was dishonest, but I merely pointed out that Tony Stark-the head of the Avengers-is even more dishonest since he stole millions in the stock market. There is no evidence that Luke cares about himself more than his wife and child, he just didn't think living in the same mansion with the man he considers the scum of the Earth (and maybe a skrull) was a really neat idea.
Mark_S
Mark_S
04-05-2008, 01:45 PM
LMAO so now it's Stark's fault for the Skrull invasion? haha I guess the rest of the Illuminati had nothing to do with it? Stark forced to the Skrull world? What issue was that?
I guess the Skrulls never wanted to invade the planet until Stark goaded them?!?
There you have it, everything that's been written about the Skrull and thier attempts to invade this planet have been B.S., they only want to invade because of Stark! Stan Lee and Jack Kirby are full of crap, because Mark_S has figured it out.
Tony himself has speculated that they way the Illuminati went to the skrull homeworld and tried to intimidate the skrulls might have set them off. That has yet to be revealed. But it is a likely conclusion since the track record of the Illuminati isn't really a great one.
Mark_S
agrich
04-05-2008, 01:45 PM
Strictly speaking, if you're going to be so hardline about it, everyone who stole the Quinjet is a felon. Spider-man, by your rationale, is also a felon, whether it was his "idea" or not.
You can certainly call him a lousy husband if you want, but the deadbeat Dad comment doesn't make any sense.
Iron Man's leadership of the Mighty Avengers hasn't been so great either.
Obviously everyone is free to like or dislike whatever character they want, but it seems like you've kind of gone around the bend in your feelings on Cage.
An honest theif? GTF outta here with that sh!t. Motor vehicle theft is a felony, it was Cage's idea to STEAL the Quinjet. He's a felon.
He's a deadbeat dad and a poor excuse of a husband because he cares about himself more than his wife and child. I'm sure if they were hurting for money, he's "honestly steal it"
Poor leadership because all he's done is get him and his teams asses kicked on a daily basis.
LMAO so now it's Stark's fault for the Skrull invasion? haha I guess the rest of the Illuminati had nothing to do with it? Stark forced to the Skrull world? What issue was that?
I guess the Skrulls never wanted to invade the planet until Stark goaded them?!?
There you have it, everything that's been written about the Skrull and thier attempts to invade this planet have been B.S., they only want to invade because of Stark! Stan Lee and Jack Kirby are full of crap, because Mark_S has figured it out.
I don't understand this idea that the NA are getting their @$$ kicked. If you actually read the stories, you'll see that they do actually WIN their fights.
IronStarks
04-05-2008, 01:55 PM
What a big dissapointment. Yet again Yu's art was bland and predictable and the pace of the story was painfully slow. If it didn't impact the MU i wouldn't buy another issue.
i thought it was anything but slow, read Civil War and House of M for some really slow starts
Mark_S
04-05-2008, 02:12 PM
i thought it was anything but slow, read Civil War and House of M for some really slow starts
I think Bendis said in an intereview that he wanted to start off fast, and he certainly did that, knocking down a lot of the dominos he's set up in the past.
Mark_S
Camron Amaya
04-05-2008, 02:13 PM
I think it's pretty obvious so far that Secret Invasion > Civil War, WWH and House of M
An honest theif? GTF outta here with that sh!t. Motor vehicle theft is a felony, it was Cage's idea to STEAL the Quinjet. He's a felon.
It's true that the NA did steal a quinjet... and thats illegal.
Course, if anyone can relate to breaking laws to serve the greater good, it's Stark. He broke quite a few during CW.
With Cages acts at least no one was hurt. So Cages actions were legally wrong... but overall not a huge deal.
I think it's pretty obvious so far that Secret Invasion > Civil War, WWH and House of M
I agree... though we'll of course have to wait and see.
I thought the first issue of WWH was better than the first issues of Civil War and House of M too... but WWH sort of went downhill from there.
Netley
04-05-2008, 02:26 PM
It's true that the NA did steal a quinjet... and thats illegal.
Course, if anyone can relate to breaking laws to serve the greater good, it's Stark. He broke quite a few during CW.
With Cages acts at least no one was hurt. So Cages actions were legally wrong... but overall not a huge deal.
Totally agree. All illegality seems to justifiably get thrown out of the window once an alien invasion is upon us.
(Also, Cage and Co stealing the quin jet let us have a cool appearance by Cloak, who I hope is back before the end of SI!)
And if I were a Marvel ACLU attorney, I'd argue that the SHRA is unconstitutional anyway, since it forces those who are different to register their differences with, and only use those differences to further the interests of, the government. (And if you say SHIELD isn't American government, then it's even more unconstitutional!)
Iron_Stark
04-05-2008, 03:57 PM
It's true that the NA did steal a quinjet... and thats illegal.
Course, if anyone can relate to breaking laws to serve the greater good, it's Stark. He broke quite a few during CW.
Infact stealing the Quinjet should be the same as stealing a patrol car or any other Government vehicle, is crime is a lot worse than just stealing any regular car.
With Cages acts at least no one was hurt. So Cages actions were legally wrong... but overall not a huge deal.
No huge deal? Really? Lets hope your car never stolen, but if it ever did, I'm sure you won't be saying "Oh, it's no big deal."
MVT in the State of New York is a felony, Luke Cage stole the Quinjet. He's a FELON on the loose.
Infact stealing the Quinjet should be the same as stealing a patrol car or any other Government vehicle, is crime is a lot worse than just stealing any regular car
Strictly speaking, if you're going to be so hardline about it, everyone who stole the Quinjet is a felon. Spider-man, by your rationale, is also a felon, whether it was his "idea" or not.
You can certainly call him a lousy husband if you want, but the deadbeat Dad comment doesn't make any sense.
Iron Man's leadership of the Mighty Avengers hasn't been so great either.
Obviously everyone is free to like or dislike whatever character they want, but it seems like you've kind of gone around the bend in your feelings on Cage.
The blame falls on Cages' shoulder 100%, it was his idea to commit the felony, it was he that called Cloak and it was him that broke into the QJ.
Lousy husband because he's a felon on the run and would rather be on the run and put his wife and daughter in constant danger.
Under Iron Man's leadership, they've beaten Ultron, a Venom Virus and Dr Doom.
Under Luke Cage, they've gotten thier asses beat by a group of ninjas and C-level villains.
Oh what, Iron Man can get hated on a constant basis, but I can't hate on the leader of the other team. Kinda F'd up if you ask me.
No huge deal? Really? Lets hope your car never stolen, but if it ever did, I'm sure you won't be saying "Oh, it's no big deal."
MVT in the State of New York is a felony, Luke Cage stole the Quinjet. He's a FELON on the loose.
Infact stealing the Quinjet should be the same as stealing a patrol car or any other Government vehicle, is crime is a lot worse than just stealing any regular car
The blame falls on Cages' shoulder 100%, it was his idea to commit the felony, it was he that called Cloak and it was him that broke into the QJ.
Lousy husband because he's a felon on the run and would rather be on the run and put his wife and daughter in constant danger.
Under Iron Man's leadership, they've beaten Ultron, a Venom Virus and Dr Doom.
Under Luke Cage, they've gotten thier asses beat by a group of ninjas and C-level villains.
Oh what, Iron Man can get hated on a constant basis, but I can't hate on the leader of the other team. Kinda F'd up if you ask me.
Do you actually read NA? You do know that they WON all the fights you're criticizing them for getting their @$$es handed to them in right?
As for the Quinjet being stolen... I think if someone stole my car to try and stop an alien invasion, I could live with it.
Heroes break laws occasionally. Like I said, Stark broke MANY during CW (many of them far worse than what Cage did), so I assume he understands.
agrich
04-05-2008, 05:04 PM
MVT in the State of New York is a felony, Luke Cage stole the Quinjet. He's a FELON on the loose.
Infact stealing the Quinjet should be the same as stealing a patrol car or any other Government vehicle, is crime is a lot worse than just stealing any regular car
The blame falls on Cages' shoulder 100%, it was his idea to commit the felony, it was he that called Cloak and it was him that broke into the QJ.
If five criminals stole your car, I'm guessing you wouldn't put 100 percent of the blame on the guy whose "idea" it was. You'd probably blame all of them. So, I'm guessing, would the police. Like I said, I think you're taking an unnecessarily hard line, but I guess that's because you hate Cage, which is fine.
The Mighty Avengers did defeat Ultron, but it certainly wasn't because of Stark's leadership. But anyway, maybe I should have just mentioned Stark's leadership of SHIELD, where the helicarrier keeps crashing onto New York City and every other week (in New Avengers, Captain America, and Hulk) criminals are getting busted out of custody.
You can hate whatever fictional character you want. Personally I like Cage and Stark both about equally, for different reasons.
Buddy Lee
04-05-2008, 05:06 PM
I'm gonna go ot on a limb here and say that pretty soon, real heros and skrulls are going to fight
Mark_S
04-05-2008, 05:30 PM
No huge deal? Really? Lets hope your car never stolen, but if it ever did, I'm sure you won't be saying "Oh, it's no big deal."
MVT in the State of New York is a felony, Luke Cage stole the Quinjet. He's a FELON on the loose.
Infact stealing the Quinjet should be the same as stealing a patrol car or any other Government vehicle, is crime is a lot worse than just stealing any regular car
True, but if you were in Moscow and stole a care from the KGB, or in Germany and stole one from the Stasi (back when they existed) I can't see many people blaming you. Didn't James Bond steal a tank once? SHIELD has plenty of Quinjets, the only reason they missed this one is because Tony wanted it. Knowing the level of efficiency in a typical govenment organization I epxect that a couple of dozen of those things have gone missing and no one's even noticed yet. This is SHIELD, they can't keep track of supervillains, what makes you think they keep track of quinjets?
However it was a crime and I do have to wonder at Cage's mindset. He has to know Tony knows about the ship in the Savage Land, he has to know grabbing a quinjet isn't going to slow Tony down. Why take a quinjet from SHIELD that way? Surely Danny Rand has a few other jets of his own or can rent one. Are Quinjets so much faster? It is as if he's goading Tony, trying his best to get the other Avengers into the Savage Land for one reason or another. It might be because in the SL Tony can not call in squardrons of Cape Killers for back up and Cage is mad enough to have it out with him. But there should be a reason given in later issues.
The blame falls on Cages' shoulder 100%, it was his idea to commit the felony, it was he that called Cloak and it was him that broke into the QJ.
Lousy husband because he's a felon on the run and would rather be on the run and put his wife and daughter in constant danger.
Under Iron Man's leadership, they've beaten Ultron, a Venom Virus and Dr Doom.
Under Luke Cage, they've gotten thier asses beat by a group of ninjas and C-level villains.
Oh what, Iron Man can get hated on a constant basis, but I can't hate on the leader of the other team. Kinda F'd up if you ask me.
You can hate Cage all you want, but you'll have to have a better basis for it. You call him a felon on the run, but look at the organization and the government he is running from and the law that started it all. The shra was ten different kinds of uncostitutional and enforced with a brutal zeal that was truly amazing to see.
The last time Luke was in court he was sentenced to a crime he didn't commit and turned over to two racist sadistic guards, I don't think that he imagines that things have gotten any better since then. He may be a bit tougher now than he was then, but an organization that experiments on prisoners will find a way to torture him. Under Luke they captured the Hood and his gang, it was Tony's organization that let them escape. Luke would rather live free than serve a currupt government. And what ever else you can argue you can not argue that SHIELD is a clean agency. And the fact that SHIELD is so currupt and incompetent has made the skrulls task that much easier. Take away the NA and Tony had no clue that the skrulls were even on Earth again.
Mark_S
Mark_S
04-05-2008, 05:31 PM
I'm gonna go ot on a limb here and say that pretty soon, real heros and skrulls are going to fight
The trick will be telling them apart.
Mark_S
joemagnum611
04-05-2008, 06:42 PM
No huge deal? Really? Lets hope your car never stolen, but if it ever did, I'm sure you won't be saying "Oh, it's no big deal."
MVT in the State of New York is a felony, Luke Cage stole the Quinjet. He's a FELON on the loose.
Infact stealing the Quinjet should be the same as stealing a patrol car or any other Government vehicle, is crime is a lot worse than just stealing any regular car
The blame falls on Cages' shoulder 100%, it was his idea to commit the felony, it was he that called Cloak and it was him that broke into the QJ.
Lousy husband because he's a felon on the run and would rather be on the run and put his wife and daughter in constant danger.
Under Iron Man's leadership, they've beaten Ultron, a Venom Virus and Dr Doom.
Under Luke Cage, they've gotten thier asses beat by a group of ninjas and C-level villains.
Oh what, Iron Man can get hated on a constant basis, but I can't hate on the leader of the other team. Kinda F'd up if you ask me.
It was his idea to steal the Quin jet but the others didn't have to go along with it.
Lousy husband and father? Umm he's trying to do what's right for his family. He's fighting an unconstitional law and trying to protect his family from an alien invaison. As a matter of fact it was his team that uncovered this invaision so without them no one would even know about the Skrulls.
Iron_Stark
04-05-2008, 06:46 PM
True, but if you were in Moscow and stole a care from the KGB, or in Germany and stole one from the Stasi (back when they existed) I can't see many people blaming you. Didn't James Bond steal a tank once? SHIELD has plenty of Quinjets, the only reason they missed this one is because Tony wanted it. Knowing the level of efficiency in a typical govenment organization I epxect that a couple of dozen of those things have gone missing and no one's even noticed yet. This is SHIELD, they can't keep track of supervillains, what makes you think they keep track of quinjets?
However it was a crime and I do have to wonder at Cage's mindset. He has to know Tony knows about the ship in the Savage Land, he has to know grabbing a quinjet isn't going to slow Tony down. Why take a quinjet from SHIELD that way? Surely Danny Rand has a few other jets of his own or can rent one. Are Quinjets so much faster? It is as if he's goading Tony, trying his best to get the other Avengers into the Savage Land for one reason or another. It might be because in the SL Tony can not call in squardrons of Cape Killers for back up and Cage is mad enough to have it out with him. But there should be a reason given in later issues.
You can hate Cage all you want, but you'll have to have a better basis for it. You call him a felon on the run, but look at the organization and the government he is running from and the law that started it all. The shra was ten different kinds of uncostitutional and enforced with a brutal zeal that was truly amazing to see.
The last time Luke was in court he was sentenced to a crime he didn't commit and turned over to two racist sadistic guards, I don't think that he imagines that things have gotten any better since then. He may be a bit tougher now than he was then, but an organization that experiments on prisoners will find a way to torture him. Under Luke they captured the Hood and his gang, it was Tony's organization that let them escape. Luke would rather live free than serve a currupt government. And what ever else you can argue you can not argue that SHIELD is a clean agency. And the fact that SHIELD is so currupt and incompetent has made the skrulls task that much easier. Take away the NA and Tony had no clue that the skrulls were even on Earth again.
Mark_S
We're not talking about Moscow or Germany, this the US of A, the law is the law.
Your train of thought amazes me, on one hand you're pissed at Tony and the shra and the "corrupt" govnt', yet you'd rather see the Skrulls take over the world and wipe out the human race.
I'm not going to say SHIELD is clean, hell Tony knows SHIELD isn't clean, but don't come here bitchn and moaning about Stark when you know damn well the outlaw Avengers are a dirty bunch aswell.
The trick will be telling them apart.
I'm pretty sure everyone will be able to tell them apart, you're the delusional one that won't.
I'm not going to say SHIELD is clean, hell Tony knows SHIELD isn't clean, but don't come here bitchn and moaning about Stark when you know damn well the outlaw Avengers are a dirty bunch aswell.
It's a matter of degree I suppose.
The NA are "dirty" because they stole a ship to go off and fight skrulls invading the eart.
Tony is dirty because he mind controlled a villain to commit an illegal bombing on US soil, murdering people to he could scare the public into supporting his political agenda.
I can personally see a difference. But that's just me. I'll say this... if the roles were reversed I think I'd feel the same way. If Tony stole a ship to fight skrulls, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But if Cage mind controlled someone into committing a bombing for political reasons, I'd be critical of Cage. If the roles were reversed, would you be criticising Tony as strongly as you're criticising Cage right now?
Mark_S
04-05-2008, 07:09 PM
We're not talking about Moscow or Germany, this the US of A, the law is the law.
You really didn't read Front Line 11 did you?
Your train of thought amazes me, on one hand you're pissed at Tony and the shra and the "corrupt" govnt', yet you'd rather see the Skrulls take over the world and wipe out the human race.
Not really wipe out, merely oppress for a few years. I believe the story potential there is far more than what can be shown in a limitted series. And I as I have pointed out the skrulls are honest in their villainy. If I'm going to be oppressed I'd rather have it down honestly.
I'm not going to say SHIELD is clean, hell Tony knows SHIELD isn't clean, but don't come here bitchn and moaning about Stark when you know damn well the outlaw Avengers are a dirty bunch aswell.
Depends on how you define dirty. They operate outside the law, so did a lot of groups in fiction and history when they were facing currupt oppressive governments. Blakes 7 comes to mind. So far I have yet to see the NA do anything approaching Clor.
I'm pretty sure everyone will be able to tell them apart, you're the delusional one that won't.
Ah, but a crazy man can sometimes see more clearly than a fanatic.
Mark_S
jackolover
04-05-2008, 07:20 PM
I think it's pretty obvious so far that Secret Invasion > Civil War, WWH and House of M
I think it's still too early to judge anything that even comes close to Civil War. WWH comes next, and HoM is way behind.
I think it's still too early to judge anything that even comes close to Civil War. WWH comes next, and HoM is way behind.
I agree it's a bit early, though it's off to a good start.
As far as comparing events... it's weird, but my view on some events have actually changed overtime. Rereading Civil War now, I think I like it less than I did before. Whereas I actually think I like HoM more now reading it altogether than I did reading it at the time. Though WWH so far is about the same.
agrich
04-05-2008, 07:30 PM
Well, World War Hulk sucked from the get-go, so I don't think it's too early to say this is better than that.
Civil War had some problems, but in the end it was pretty entertaining and certainly made for a lot of interesting discussion here.
Really didn't care for House of M, at the time or reading it later. I thought it had a lot more potential than what it turned out to be.
Well, World War Hulk sucked from the get-go, so I don't think it's too early to say this is better than that.
Civil War had some problems, but in the end it was pretty entertaining and certainly made for a lot of interesting discussion here.
Really didn't care for House of M, at the time or reading it later. I thought it had a lot more potential than what it turned out to be.
I actually thought the first issue of WW was more entertaining than the first issue of CW or WWH for what it's worth. So I at least think it started out pretty well. But I agree it went downhill (and that's probably why I need to keep my expectations in check for SI).
My big issue with Civil War was that in hindsight, SOO many people had to be written badly in order to justify the event taking place at all. Millars potrayal of Cap was horrible. And for an