Early 70s Marvel & DC

[Kan-Man]

I've been on a bit of a nostalgic kick lately, brought on no doubt by the fact that I turned 40 a few months ago.

Anyway, by using Mike's Amazing World of DC's Time Machine and a few Marvel-centric sites recommended by Dan and Rob, I've been taking a trip down memory lane to see what were some of my earliest comic purchases. I was born in '67 and started buying somewhere in late '72 and it's been a blast seeing comics from 35 years ago and reliving the memories. Especially for issues I had completely forgotten about. I was even thinking about posting some of these issues but I thought it might seem way too self-indulgent.

I did have a couple of questions for you guys, though...

1) I noticed how many Western titles both Marvel and DC were cranking out in the early 70s but as far as I can remember, this genre was not exactly at the height of its popularity at that time. Any idea why the big two were publishing so many oaters?

2) Similar question for horror/supernatural titles. Taking DC's month, cover dated August '73 - of the 35 titles released, 9 were in this genre (Ghosts, Phantom Stranger, Witching Hour, House of Mystery, Weird War, Unexpected, House of Secrets, Dark Mansion, Weird Mystery). Did the popularity of movies like The Exorcist have anything to do with it? And who were these titles aimed at? I know I never purchased any of them (or more accurately my dad never bought any for me.)

[dan bailey]

1) The obvious answer, of course, is that they were selling. The period you're describing was a pretty fallow one for me as a comics buyer & reader, as I believe I started cutting my purchases pretty precipitously in maybe mid-to-late '70 & didn't start averaging more than a couple of titles (if that) a month till maybe very late '73, so my impressions of the Westerns of the time are very vague ... but weren't a lot of 'em, at least on Marvel's side, mostly if not entirely reprints? If so, of course, making money on even middling sales figures probably wouldn't have been too terribly difficult.

2) Off the top of my head, I'm recalling that "mystery" (read: horror) titles' re-emergence in the late '60s more or less followed the signal success of Rosemary's Baby at the box office. Maybe three years after that came, as you note, The Exorcist. Horror was pretty popular on TV as well -- see Night Gallery, for instance, as well as certain of its imitators (Circle of Fear/Ghost Story comes immediately to mind) & any number of made-for-TV flicks.

[MDG]

2) Off the top of my head, I'm recalling that "mystery" (read: horror) titles' re-emergence in the late '60s more or less followed the signal success of Rosemary's Baby at the box office. Maybe three years after that came, as you note, The Exorcist. Horror was pretty popular on TV as well -- see Night Gallery, for instance, as well as certain of its imitators (Circle of Fear/Ghost Story comes immediately to mind) & any number of made-for-TV flicks.
Add to that a loosening of the Comic Code, so vampires and werewolves were fair game again. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if horror titles were more popular with casual comic readers (and girls!) than superhero titles.

The longevity of Westerns is a little more puzzling, but into the early 70s there were still plenty in theatres and a few on TV.

[Leocomix]

From the late 60s, there was a change of taste. Basically pulp influence came back in force. This was strenthened by the revision of the Comics Code Authority. Conan is maybe the most prominent example. Circa 1977 he was one of three Marvel faces representing Marvel (with Spider-Man and Hulk).
However super-heroes slowly integrated pulp influence with darker storytelling (death of Gwen Stacy). Steranko, a pulp admirer, put this influence in Nick Fury and Captain America.
To those who only read superheroes, they didn't notice the pulp influence because they were not familiar with pulp. So western and horror were selling. However the Marvel westerns were mostly reprints. Steve Englehart integrated the non super-hero characters in the Marvel universe (Patsy Walker, western heroes) as well as bringing back the 50s Captain America. In a way the super-hero genre absorbed other genres so that people consider Dracula, Killraven as part of super-heroes.

[Lone Ranger]

The longevity of Westerns is a little more puzzling, but into the early 70s there were still plenty in theatres and a few on TV.

I'd have to guess that westerns on TV were a pretty big factor - movies showing Saturday afternoons and reruns of shows like Lone Ranger and Gunsmoke.

I wasn't born until '72 - but some of my earliest TV memories are off watching Lone Ranger and Bonanza.

There were plenty of western-themed toys on the market too.

It may not have been as big as the heyday in the 50s, but western-stuff was still a force in the kids' market.

My guess is that Marvel felt that the reprints were a really cheap way to get more books on the stands and tap into whatever market their remained for westerns.

DC, on the other hand, actuallys seemed to be trying to be more innovative. The Jonah Hex strip was far more 'adult' that much of what DC was putting out and obviously used the Leone/Eastwood films as a springboard.

[Kirk G]

IMHO, all the westerns in the 1970s were reprints of the classic stories drawn by Kirby, Ayers, and others in the early 1960s. I never though Westerns sold well, but the genre continued after the western boom in Television in the 1950s and 60s.

When Kirby moved to DC, Marvel was desperate to put out anything and everything that they had that was his, to continue his "presence" on the newstand and try to drownd out DC's claims that "Kirby is coming/Kirby is Here".

The presence of mystery/horror/monster books in the 1970s seemed to be an aftermath of the CCA Code Authority tumbling after Stan Lee's Drug issues in Spider-Man. I never wanted nor cared for any of these monster books, and the explosion of Morbius, Son of Satan, Man Thing, etc, drove me out of comics.... along with Marvel's style change on the covers to feature EVERYTHING in a box frame and inclusion of word balloons.

At least, that's my perception of why I left comics some two years after Kirby left marvel. It just wasn't the Marvel Age of COmics anymore, and it felt too juvenile for my "tastes".

[DocL]

During this period I bought 'em all: Superheroes, westerns, war, mystery/horror, etc....

Westerns were still popular in mainstream America in the late 60's/early 70's with Bonanza, Gunsmoke, Alias Smith & Jones, etc... as well as movies like True Grit, Rooster Cogburn, The Shootist, etc...

My brother was an avid Sgt. Fury collector and I enjoyed (and bought) DC's war books. Great art, great stories, plus all of us baby-boomers were steeped in WWII due to our fathers' participation. I can remember as a five or six year old playing 'war' with the neighborhood kids. Not so sure I'd encourage that with my four grandsons today.

Lone Ranger, you weren't born until '72? Gawd, I was in high school!

[Lone Ranger]

I've always heard that the reprints of Doug Wildey's Outlaw Kid were the best-selling of the Marvel western books during the 70s

[Lone Ranger]

Lone Ranger, you weren't born until '72? Gawd, I was in high school!

What can I say?

I'm an old soul.

[Simon Garth]

Someone linked (from this forum, I think) to an old interview in Rolling Stone with (the ex-reception lady at Marvel who succeeded Flo Steinberg - forgotten her name) - in that, she said that in that period, Marvel were expecting the superhero boom to go away, and they were throwing everything else at the wall to see what would stick. Presumably the same was true of DC etc

[Kirk G]

Someone linked (from this forum, I think) to an old interview in Rolling Stone with (the ex-reception lady at Marvel who succeeded Flo Steinberg - forgotten her name) - in that, she said that in that period, Marvel were expecting the superhero boom to go away, and they were throwing everything else at the wall to see what would stick. Presumably the same was true of DC etc

That makes perfect sense.
That's what it felt like.
No faith in the characters, in their own heroes, and anything and everything was being tried...
Monsters, satanic, vampires, 2 in 1, team-ups, sci-fi, and more...

[Captain Jim]

1) I noticed how many Western titles both Marvel and DC were cranking out in the early 70s but as far as I can remember, this genre was not exactly at the height of its popularity at that time. Any idea why the big two were publishing so many oaters?

I think everybody has already hit the nail on the head as far as Marvel is concerned. They were virtually all reprints and cost next to nothing. Don't forget, Marvel was putting out tons of superhero reprints during this time as well: Marvel's Greatest Comics, Marvel Tales, etc., etc.

As far as DC is concerned, well, there really weren't all that many westerns. There was the excellent Jonah Hex, who started out in All-Star Western (later renamed Weird Western Tales). And when Jonah got his own title, they tried others (like Scalphunter) in WWT, though these other characters never really caught on. That's pretty much all I remember from DC.

2) Similar question for horror/supernatural titles. Taking DC's month, cover dated August '73 - of the 35 titles released, 9 were in this genre (Ghosts, Phantom Stranger, Witching Hour, House of Mystery, Weird War, Unexpected, House of Secrets, Dark Mansion, Weird Mystery). Did the popularity of movies like The Exorcist have anything to do with it? And who were these titles aimed at? I know I never purchased any of them (or more accurately my dad never bought any for me.)

Something which has yet to be mentioned. I suspect it was more the popularity of the Warren magazines, Creepy, Eerie & Vampirella, than it was movies. I think Cain and Abel (for instance) were modeled pretty closely on Uncle Creepy and Cousin Eerie (who were themselves highly influenced by the earlier EC titles).

[Kirk G]

What can I say?

I'm an old soul.

Gawd, I must be one too...
I was in 10th grade in 1972...and about to bail out of Marvel comics...
So, I was in high school also!

The young kids coming right out of college these days.... have no appreciation for history before, say, the 1990s... and worse, most of them are young enough to be my kids. And point it out frequently. How nice of them!

[johanskull]

Actually... the reason Marvel churned out so many Westerns in the 1970's was beacuse previously, Marvel was using (the company now known as) DC for distribution. DC, in their business wisdom, limited the number of titles that the upstart Marvel could publish.

Once Marvel switched distributors (to Curtis, I believe), they could publish as many as they could. Needing to make up some marketplace ground, Marvel looked at their library and reprints of Westerns issued forth.

Now, being the 1970's, there was also a market for Westerns, due to Clint Eastwood's Italian films which hit big. Horror was big due to The Exorcist and Rosemary's Baby, and Martial Arts and Blaxplotation Films were big box office.

So with no limits, aside from the Comics Code authority, Marvel jumped on these new genres with fervor. There weren't enough people working at Marvel to produce enough material to cover the expanded marketplace, and so the reprints. And concurrently, they began reprinting the first few years of their super-heroes as well.

So that's why there were so many reprints. A little bit of cashing in on trends, plus Marvel was finally unshackled in regards to distribution.

It was a great time to "grow up" and be into comics.

BTW, this is my first post, but I've been reading this forum for a year or two. "Hi."

[Reptisaurus!]

That makes perfect sense.
That's what it felt like.
No faith in the characters, in their own heroes, and anything and everything was being tried...
Monsters, satanic, vampires, 2 in 1, team-ups, sci-fi, and more...

Well, look what their faith in cowboys, giant monsters, and knights got 'em in the fifties.

I'm STILL hoping for an end to the superhero boom, myself. :)

[Sir Tim Drake]

BTW, this is my first post, but I've been reading this forum for a year or two. "Hi."

Welcome to CBR. It's always nice to see someone de-lurking!

[johanskull]

Welcome to CBR. It's always nice to see someone de-lurking!

Always glad to del-urk :) As it's been great reading the discussions in this forum. I'll try to not be as much a stranger.

[Kan-Man]

As far as DC is concerned, well, there really weren't all that many westerns. There was the excellent Jonah Hex, who started out in All-Star Western (later renamed Weird Western Tales). And when Jonah got his own title, they tried others (like Scalphunter) in WWT, though these other characters never really caught on. That's pretty much all I remember from DC.

In addition to All Star Western, there was Tomahawk but what struck me was two DC titles I had never seen before - Johnny Thunder and Trigger Twins. Granted, both were reprint titles, but they did add to DC's western output in the early 70s.

[MDG]

In addition to All Star Western, there was Tomahawk but what struck me was two DC titles I had never seen before - Johnny Thunder and Trigger Twins. Granted, both were reprint titles, but they did add to DC's western output in the early 70s.
And there's great Toth in one book, great Infantino in the other.

[T GUy]

In addition to All Star Western, there was Tomahawk but what struck me was two DC titles I had never seen before - Johnny Thunder and Trigger Twins. Granted, both were reprint titles, but they did add to DC's western output in the early 70s.

Not by much - three issues of Johnny Thunder and one of the Trigger Twins. And Tomahawk only crossed over with All-Star/Weird Western for about a year.

[Evan Lanctot]

I miss the diversity of comics in those days.


Evan

[Rob Allen]

I've read that if you consider both pulps and comics from the 30s to the 70s, Martin Goodman was the most successful publisher of Western fiction ever.

[benday-dot]

Conan is maybe the most prominent example. Circa 1977 he was one of three Marvel faces representing Marvel (with Spider-Man and Hulk).


For awhile back in those days, when the Big Two, really did offer something for everyone, Conan truly did break new ground. Outselling most superhero titles avaialable it might have been the first non-cape genre book to do so since the 50's.

[Captain Jim]

In addition to All Star Western, there was Tomahawk but what struck me was two DC titles I had never seen before - Johnny Thunder and Trigger Twins. Granted, both were reprint titles, but they did add to DC's western output in the early 70s.

I don't think of Tomahawk as a 70's title. The character first appeared in Star Spangled Comics in June 1947, became the regular cover feature in Star Spangled (replacing Robin) in September 1949 and went on to get his own book in September 1950. It ran non-stop throughout the fifties and sixties, finally coming to an end in June 1972 (and even there, Tomahawk was actually replaced by his son: Hawk, Son of Tomahawk, for the last couple years of the title). So while it technically continued to appear for a couple of years in the seventies, it was clearly winding down. And as T GUy mentioned, All Star Western only crossed over with Tomahawk for a short while.

I had forgotten all about those short reprint runs of Johnny Thunder and Trigger Twins (even though I used to have them), but again, as T GUy says, you're only talking about 3 and 1 issue, respectively.

So again, I don't think this begins to compare with Marvel's huge deluge of Western reprint titles in the 1970's.

[Kan-Man]

I don't think of Tomahawk as a 70's title. The character first appeared in Star Spangled Comics in June 1947, became the regular cover feature in Star Spangled (replacing Robin) in September 1949 and went on to get his own book in September 1950. It ran non-stop throughout the fifties and sixties, finally coming to an end in June 1972 (and even there, Tomahawk was actually replaced by his son: Hawk, Son of Tomahawk, for the last couple years of the title). So while it technically continued to appear for a couple of years in the seventies, it was clearly winding down. And as T GUy mentioned, All Star Western only crossed over with Tomahawk for a short while.

I had forgotten all about those short reprint runs of Johnny Thunder and Trigger Twins (even though I used to have them), but again, as T GUy says, you're only talking about 3 and 1 issue, respectively.

So again, I don't think this begins to compare with Marvel's huge deluge of Western reprint titles in the 1970's.

I think I may have skipped over a few important items while I was typing my original post. I was primarily looking at 1972 and 1973, which were the years I started collecting. And I wasn't trying to compare DC with Marvel but rather looking at the cumulative number of western titles between them in those two years. You're absolutely right - Marvel was putting out a lot more of them and DC's were short lived. I just found it interesting how many non-superhero books both companies were publishing, especially compared to today.

[Captain Jim]

Oh, definitely. But DC and Marvel had both published some western titles continuously since the 1950's, and this was kind of a continuation of that (especially with most being reprints). The mystery titles, on the other hand, were something new on the scene at the time (at least new since the late 50's ban on horror comics).

DC was also still publishing a fair number of war and romance comics in the early 1970's. But again, most of these were titles that had been around since the 1950's.

[MDG]

For awhile back in those days, when the Big Two, really did offer something for everyone, Conan truly did break new ground. Outselling most superhero titles avaialable it might have been the first non-cape genre book to do so since the 50's.

DC and Marvel both floudrered around looking for "the next Conan"--Kong, Stalker, Thongor--seems like there were a lot of others. None seemed to click except Grell's Warlord.

Wasn't this also the time Marvel started printing B&W magazines as well?

[Captain Jim]

Wasn't this also the time Marvel started printing B&W magazines as well?

Yes, it was.

[Rob Allen]

It's also interesting to note that a new publisher entered the comics field in 1970-71, and they chose to emphasize Westerns. In fact they didn't publish any superhero comics at all.

Skywald only managed to put out 20 color comic books. Here's the genre breakdown:

western: 12
romance: 4
jungle: 3
monster: 1

Can you imagine anyone starting a comics company in the last thirty years with that kind of lineup?

[Kan-Man]

It's also interesting to note that a new publisher entered the comics field in 1970-71, and they chose to emphasize Westerns. In fact they didn't publish any superhero comics at all.

Skywald only managed to put out 20 color comic books. Here's the genre breakdown:

western: 12
romance: 4
jungle: 3
monster: 1

Can you imagine anyone starting a comics company in the last thirty years with that kind of lineup?

I was buying a little bit of everything when I started collecting - DC, Marvel, Dell, Gold Key, Harvey - but I don't recall ever seeing or buying a Skywald comic. What were some of their more popular titles?

[prince hal]

I was buying a little bit of everything when I started collecting - DC, Marvel, Dell, Gold Key, Harvey - but I don't recall ever seeing or buying a Skywald comic. What were some of their more popular titles?

Well their lead jungle character was Zangar, the redheaded jungle lord.

Nuff said.

[prince hal]

Just to add to what's been said, yes, the variety was wonderful, and it made me a much more catholic fan. I read virtually everything that was printed witht he exception of teen humor stuff (price helped, of course), and learned so much of comics history and traditions as a result of all the reprints that were published then.

[dan bailey]

Just to add to what's been said, yes, the variety was wonderful, and it made me a much more catholic fan.

The Pope John Paul II comic the following decade must've really made your day ...

[T GUy]

I was buying a little bit of everything when I started collecting - DC, Marvel, Dell, Gold Key, Harvey - but I don't recall ever seeing or buying a Skywald comic. What were some of their more popular titles?

Judging by what I've heard, Skywald didn't have any (more) popular titles.

[Rob Allen]

I was buying a little bit of everything when I started collecting - DC, Marvel, Dell, Gold Key, Harvey - but I don't recall ever seeing or buying a Skywald comic. What were some of their more popular titles?

As others have said, none of Skywald's color comics could be called "popular". The fact that they only put out 20 issues total is evidence of that. That said, their most popular character, with 5 appearances, was The Sundance Kid. Next was an original Western group called The Bravados, with 4 appearances. Sundance's partner Butch Cassidy headlined 3 issues, and that adds up to 12 Western comics. Price Hal mentioned their jungle hero Zangar - he appeared in all three issues of Jungle Adventures. Their romance book didn't have continuing characters.

Arguably, the most popular character they had was the one who appeared in only one color comic - The Heap. After Skywald's color line collapsed, the Heap moved to their black & white magazine Psycho, where he (it?) appeared for several more years. Skywald's horror magazines, Psycho, Nightmare and later Scream, were quite good. Editor Alan Hewetson did really well with limited resources.

[Kirk G]

The Pope John Paul II comic the following decade must've really made your day ...

When it came out, I couldn't believe my eyes!
I thought "What dunderhead at Marvel pitched this clunker!"
I didn't buy it and thought no more of it,..... until years later when I read in CBG that it was the single best selling comic of ALL TIME!:D

[Kirk G]

Double Post.
Duh! Dumb me!

[Gothos]

It's also interesting to note that a new publisher entered the comics field in 1970-71, and they chose to emphasize Westerns. In fact they didn't publish any superhero comics at all.

Skywald only managed to put out 20 color comic books. Here's the genre breakdown:

western: 12
romance: 4
jungle: 3
monster: 1

Can you imagine anyone starting a comics company in the last thirty years with that kind of lineup?

Rob,

Skywald put out no color superhero books but they did publish 2 issues of HELL RIDER, a B&W magazine comic starring a masked motorcycle-hero with limited super-strength. It was a fairly violent comic for the period (70 or 71) and may have been directed more at the cycle audience than the usual comics-buyers.

In both issues of HR appeared the backup THE BUTTERFLY, who has the distinction of being the first black superheroine, to the best of my knowledge. It was closer to the mold of the usual superhero adventure. I believe Sol Brodsky had a lot to do with both features.

Both issues also had a non-superhero feature called THE WILD BUNCH, about a scruffy band of dogooding cycle-riders.