Should She Hulk Become A MAX Title?

[Robo Ape]

After the Parental Advisory on issue #26 I got to wondering if they shouldn't just go the whole hog & move She Hulk onto the MAX product line. I wouldn't think it would have much impact on sales & the title skirts the edge of the MAX titles with the level of violence anyway so they might as well take it the extra little bit further & move the title over.

I mean if Wolverine can move in that direction why not She hulk?

[Rahul]

Since when Wolverine was going to be a MAX title?


And as for She Hulk it would depend on the writer and art...but then its She Hulk we only need the art!

[Mark_S]

There are a lot of mature stories that they could do with Jen, she can go from outer space to a courtroom with ease and show us the harsher sides of both.

Mark_S

[Brian M.]

She-Hulk Smash in Bedroom?

[Nyssane]

I'd rather not.

[Robo Ape]

Since when Wolverine was going to be a MAX title?


And as for She Hulk it would depend on the writer and art...but then its She Hulk we only need the art!

Well he might as well be the number of times that title carries a parental advisory notice on the front.

As for She Hulk & it's art it sounds like a job for Mr Frank Cho!;)

[XPac]

With the right artist (that's key) a bit of She-Hulk max stuff would be fun.

I wouldn't say it needs to be an on-going, but I few max mini's here and there wouldn't hurt. I'll bet Byrne would have loved to have done that... he seemed to enjoy creating scenarios where Jen was undressed.

[Joe Franklin]

I would buy the book if it were a MAX title.:cool:

I wish Marvel had more MAX titles every month.:(

[Siddon]

Marvel's position towards MAX titles is that no title that would apeal to a younger crowd will recieve a MAX title so unfortunately only niche characters get the MAX brand. So you will never see a Wolverine MAX or Emma Frost MAX while Joe Q is EIC.

[Netley]

If it were a Max title, the recent no-pants scene would have been a bigger part of the plot.

[Robo Ape]

Marvel's position towards MAX titles is that no title that would apeal to a younger crowd will recieve a MAX title so unfortunately only niche characters get the MAX brand. So you will never see a Wolverine MAX or Emma Frost MAX while Joe Q is EIC.

That's rather narrow thinking as their the kind of characters they need in the MAX line, which to me has never been properly supported by Marvel anyway. MAX could have been Marvel's Vertigo but they have never shown enough consistent interest in it.

[Tobias Drake]

I don't really see how the level of violence in Shulkie "skirts the edge". Really, she just punches stuff. She's just like every other superhero except a MAX title might feature her boobs. Which doesn't justify the price of admission; I, personally, do not want Shulkie turning into softcore metahuman porn.

[Robo Ape]

I don't really see how the level of violence in Shulkie "skirts the edge". Really, she just punches stuff. She's just like every other superhero except a MAX title might feature her boobs. Which doesn't justify the price of admission; I, personally, do not want Shulkie turning into softcore metahuman porn.

Well issue #26 seemed pretty violent too me, though I am not sure it warranted the parental advisory warning on the front cover.

Anyway why should the fact that it became a MAX title equal the character showing her boobs I just don't see the logic there?:confused:

[Kefky]

Um, say what?

[MartinRedmond]

She-Hulk with a parental advisory? So it's a lottery of kids can buy this this month, now they can't?

*sigh* Comics going down the toilet.

[Rahul]

Well he might as well be the number of times that title carries a parental advisory notice on the front.

As for She Hulk & it's art it sounds like a job for Mr Frank Cho!;)
Wolverine is a character who has a mean attitude and cuts up people with his six adamantium claws.

Obviously it would not receive the kind of rating Marvel Adventures does(although strangely, he does show up in the Avengers title, but is only allowed to cut through non living things).


But yeah Frank Cho would rock!!!!

[filthysize]

I don't think violence alone gets you a MAX title. Marvel has no problem depicting really violent stuff in a mainstream book.

Is there a need for She-Hulk and her supporting characters to swear in the dialogue? Because it's either that or a heavy dose of dark storylines that involve sex somehow.

I mean, they could justify it if they retool the premise a bit and have her deal with rape and child abuse cases on a monthly basis. But... why?

[Tobias Drake]

I don't think violence alone gets you a MAX title. Marvel has no problem depicting really violent stuff in a mainstream book.

Is there a need for She-Hulk and her supporting characters to swear in the dialogue? Because it's either that or a heavy dose of dark storylines that involve sex somehow.

I mean, they could justify it if they retool the premise a bit and have her deal with rape and child abuse cases on a monthly basis. But... why?

EXACTLY. Shulkie just doesn't have the kind of content that demands a MAX title.

[Robo Ape]

EXACTLY. Shulkie just doesn't have the kind of content that demands a MAX title.

And why doesn't it, I mean the way she has been written even in the recent past could certainly be said to be going in that direction.

I don't see why people keep automatically equating the MAX line with excessive amounts of sex, violence & swearing, surely it just means a chance to explore more 'mature' story lines. When Alias was appearing on MAX the story lines though they didn't necessarily feature excessive amounts of sex & violence (though it did have some swearing) they did feature a wider range of more 'mature' story lines & that's what I would like to see for She Hulk

[Tobias Drake]

And why doesn't it, I mean the way she has been written even in the recent past could certainly be said to be going in that direction.

I don't see why people keep automatically equating the MAX line with excessive amounts of sex, violence & swearing, surely it just means a chance to explore more 'mature' story lines. When Alias was appearing on MAX the story lines though they didn't necessarily feature excessive amounts of sex & violence (though it did have some swearing) they did feature a wider range of more 'mature' story lines & that's what I would like to see for She Hulk

Because if you're not going to do stories featuring the kind of content that would require the MAX header, then why do you even need the MAX header? If all you want is more "mature" (read: better written) stories rather than dumbing the story down, then just write a good story in the regular title. You don't need a MAX header to write good, well-thought out stories that an older audience can appreciate it. You only need it to write excessive amounts of sex and violence.

[filthysize]

The difference is that Alias was about a down-and-out, disgraced ex-superhero working as a P.I., looking up the seedy side of superhero lives. The premise itself pretty much asks for a MAX imprint. Even though it ends up being Marvel U canon, there was always this feeling of it being a separate world, where Captain America has secret late-night rendezvous with a strange woman and it comes across as sleazy. That's what has to happen in a She-Hulk MAX to warrant that label.

If you want She-Hulk to be a MAX title, to make it fit into the imprint's mold, you have to take her into that darker more realistic territory -- otherwise might as well keep it the way it is. The question is, why would you? Would she be a more interesting character tin that type of world? Or is she better suited in a more light-hearted book where she deals with both superhero stuff and absurd cases like Spiderman testifying against Jonah?

[Zel]

If it were a Max title, the recent no-pants scene would have been a bigger part of the plot.

I doubt it. MAX has generally gotten it's "mature" rating from gore, not nudity. You're more likely to see intenstines than nipples.

[Gnarl]

Which is quite a pity.

Everyone is say "sex and violence" as if it were the same thing, inconveniently split up into 3 words.

I'd have enjoyed a lighearted, actually funny book, with MAX art.

[sHayden]

Ok. So how about this. Marvel sits Frank Cho down and says; "Draw She-Hulk buck naked. Front and rear views. Also cover Storm, The Black Widow, Tigra, Psylocke, Sue Storm, Spiderwoman, and a few more who catch your eye." and release that as a MAX title. Then you get your big nude superheroine cheese-cake and everyone is happy.

If Marvel wants to move anything else to MAX, I'd go with Dr. Strange. So much interesting and dark stuff could be done with magic and the occult.

[Gnarl]

Ok. So how about this. Marvel sits Frank Cho down and says; "Draw She-Hulk buck naked. Front and rear views. Also cover Storm, The Black Widow, Tigra, Psylocke, Sue Storm, Spiderwoman, and a few more who catch your eye." and release that as a MAX title. Then you get your big nude superheroine cheese-cake and everyone is happy.

How does that make a good, funny, entertaining or interesting story?

It doesn't have to to be dark or violent to be good.

[Tobias Drake]

How does that make a good, funny, entertaining or interesting story?

It doesn't have to to be dark or violent to be good.

But it doesn't need a MAX imprint if it's not. If you're not going to do anything that you don't have problems with children seeing, you don't need the MAX imprint. Which is why I wonder why we're even having this conversation; unless you're planning on big nude Shulkie or on lots of gore and blood, both of which would be completely out of place in a Shulkie title, there's nothing you could do with a MAX imprint for her that you couldn't just as well do without one.

The Punisher needed the MAX imprint so that he could go into seriously dark, violent, edgy material. What possible use does Shulkie have for it?

[Robo Ape]

Ok. So how about this. Marvel sits Frank Cho down and says; "Draw She-Hulk buck naked. Front and rear views. Also cover Storm, The Black Widow, Tigra, Psylocke, Sue Storm, Spiderwoman, and a few more who catch your eye." and release that as a MAX title. Then you get your big nude superheroine cheese-cake and everyone is happy.

If Marvel wants to move anything else to MAX, I'd go with Dr. Strange. So much interesting and dark stuff could be done with magic and the occult.

I agree with Dr Strange as on MAX he could easily be taken down the John Constantine route.

Tobias Drake you keep saying that so & so elements would not be appropriate in a She Hulk title but not everyone has the same perception as to what makes a good She Hulk title. Just because you don't particularly like the idea of the title being moved in a particular direction doesn't mean that others wouldn't appreciate it if it was moved in this direction.

[Tobias Drake]

I agree with Dr Strange as on MAX he could easily be taken down the John Constantine route.

Tobias Drake you keep saying that so & so elements would not be appropriate in a She Hulk title but not everyone has the same perception as to what makes a good She Hulk title. Just because you don't particularly like the idea of the title being moved in a particular direction doesn't mean that others wouldn't appreciate it if it was moved in this direction.

What direction would it be moving in that would require a MAX imprint? I honestly cannot think of a She-Hulk story that would require the freedom to have lots of blood, gore, and violence. I can't. It just doesn't seem to fit the character that she needs freedom to slaughter tons of people on-panel. It just doesn't make sense to me. And if it's just so that Shulkie can appear nude on-panel, there are far better uses of my time and money than softcore Marvel porn. These are the only two elements that would require the MAX imprint. As such, I cannot understand what possible use there would be for a She-Hulk MAX title that features nothing that could not be just as easily portrayed in a normal She-Hulk title.

Explain it to me. The Punisher needed the MAX imprint to really get into dark, edgy, violent stories because that's the kind of character he is. Doctor Strange, I agree, would make for a fun and interesting Constantine-esque MAX title. But what, exactly, would you require the MAX imprint to do other than violence and sex, neither of which really needs to be that explicit for a Shulkie title?

[Zel]

What direction would it be moving in that would require a MAX imprint? I honestly cannot think of a She-Hulk story that would require the freedom to have lots of blood, gore, and violence. I can't. It just doesn't seem to fit the character that she needs freedom to slaughter tons of people on-panel. It just doesn't make sense to me. And if it's just so that Shulkie can appear nude on-panel, there are far better uses of my time and money than softcore Marvel porn. These are the only two elements that would require the MAX imprint. As such, I cannot understand what possible use there would be for a She-Hulk MAX title that features nothing that could not be just as easily portrayed in a normal She-Hulk title.

Explain it to me. The Punisher needed the MAX imprint to really get into dark, edgy, violent stories because that's the kind of character he is. Doctor Strange, I agree, would make for a fun and interesting Constantine-esque MAX title. But what, exactly, would you require the MAX imprint to do other than violence and sex, neither of which really needs to be that explicit for a Shulkie title?

It'd be worth my time and money :) A little sexy fun is totally in keeping with She-Hulk's character. And sexy fun is a worthy goal all on its own.

[Tetsuo_man]

You can have hardcore sex and lighthearted comedy together. I don't think it would be completly incompatible.

[IamtheRock3]

The difference is that Alias was about a down-and-out, disgraced ex-superhero working as a P.I., looking up the seedy side of superhero lives. The premise itself pretty much asks for a MAX imprint. Even though it ends up being Marvel U canon, there was always this feeling of it being a separate world, where Captain America has secret late-night rendezvous with a strange woman and it comes across as sleazy. That's what has to happen in a She-Hulk MAX to warrant that label.

If you want She-Hulk to be a MAX title, to make it fit into the imprint's mold, you have to take her into that darker more realistic territory -- otherwise might as well keep it the way it is. The question is, why would you? Would she be a more interesting character tin that type of world? Or is she better suited in a more light-hearted book where she deals with both superhero stuff and absurd cases like Spiderman testifying against Jonah?


Well I say you can STILL put that in a regular title. They just CHOOSE not to

Like if dc wanted they could put SIMON DARK as vertigo title, but it still fits regular

Same with thunderbolts with theri dark stuff. If they WANTED to they could put a max imprint on it, and frontline that goes to the same areas as Alias...although frontline not written as well.

but dont think it would change much other then marketing gimmik

[Robo Ape]

What direction would it be moving in that would require a MAX imprint? I honestly cannot think of a She-Hulk story that would require the freedom to have lots of blood, gore, and violence. I can't. It just doesn't seem to fit the character that she needs freedom to slaughter tons of people on-panel. It just doesn't make sense to me. And if it's just so that Shulkie can appear nude on-panel, there are far better uses of my time and money than softcore Marvel porn. These are the only two elements that would require the MAX imprint. As such, I cannot understand what possible use there would be for a She-Hulk MAX title that features nothing that could not be just as easily portrayed in a normal She-Hulk title.

Explain it to me. The Punisher needed the MAX imprint to really get into dark, edgy, violent stories because that's the kind of character he is. Doctor Strange, I agree, would make for a fun and interesting Constantine-esque MAX title. But what, exactly, would you require the MAX imprint to do other than violence and sex, neither of which really needs to be that explicit for a Shulkie title?

How about wider range of more serious issues, when she was being a lawyer their was plenty of more serious criminal issues that couldn't be properly be dealt with because the title was in a 'mainstream' area.

I don't why you keep equating a title being on MAX as meaning automatically more sex & violence, you seem to have a very narrow definition of what 'mature' means if all it means to you is more sex & violence.:confused:

[IamtheRock3]

How about wider range of more serious issues, when she was being a lawyer their was plenty of more serious criminal issues that couldn't be properly be dealt with because the title was in a 'mainstream' area.

I don't why you keep equating a title being on MAX as meaning automatically more sex & violence, you seem to have a very narrow definition of what 'mature' means if all it means to you is more sex & violence.:confused:

Think the point is it really NOTHING to prevent you from doing serious issue without max

look at DAREDEVIL

Heck there was a dang Rape scene of a super hero's wife in a justice leauge comic. And that was a mainstream comic.

now to me She Hulk can be use for Max via Bawdy Humor. Sense Bawdy humor fits her, you know SUPERBAD type humor. And she much more sexual then other characters

[Netley]

Ok. So how about this. Marvel sits Frank Cho down and says; "Draw She-Hulk buck naked. Front and rear views. Also cover Storm, The Black Widow, Tigra, Psylocke, Sue Storm, Spiderwoman, and a few more who catch your eye." and release that as a MAX title. Then you get your big nude superheroine cheese-cake and everyone is happy.

If Marvel wants to move anything else to MAX, I'd go with Dr. Strange. So much interesting and dark stuff could be done with magic and the occult.

Does that mean you want to see Dr. Strange naked?

I agree with Dr Strange as on MAX he could easily be taken down the John Constantine route.


That would come with the fear of completely changing the character, but I'd be down for a little more occult/Vertigo style for Strange - so long as they don't make Steven a brooding chain-smoker or something haha!


now to me She Hulk can be use for Max via Bawdy Humor. Sense Bawdy humor fits her, you know SUPERBAD type humor. And she much more sexual then other characters

That would be the reason to make her book a Max title (makes me think of David/Perez's Sacs and Violins project from yeeaarrss ago haha!)

[Mark_S]

Does that mean you want to see Dr. Strange naked?


I'm sure there are some female fans who wouldn't mind :)

Mark_S

[Netley]

I'm sure there are some female fans who wouldn't mind :)

Mark_S

It's the mustache, huh...damn, I gotta grown me one of those!

[Tobias Drake]

How about wider range of more serious issues, when she was being a lawyer their was plenty of more serious criminal issues that couldn't be properly be dealt with because the title was in a 'mainstream' area.

I don't why you keep equating a title being on MAX as meaning automatically more sex & violence, you seem to have a very narrow definition of what 'mature' means if all it means to you is more sex & violence.:confused:

I equate it to that because that's the only thing that you could possibly do that you would not want children to see. Serious criminal issues may be too complicated for a 9-year-old to read in a mainstream title, but that doesn't mean it can't be done in a mainstream title, because there is nothing about a serious court case that would be immediately offensive and not for the eyes of children. When she was a lawyer, there was plenty of more serious criminal issues that couldn't be properly dealt with because the title was a comedy title. Humor was the major focus of the title and as such, a double homocide/rape case just isn't funny and won't appear.

It doesn't have to be a MAX title to be serious. It just needs a writer who wants to take a serious look at the character, which is actually what it has now. Like I said before, you don't need the MAX banner if you're not going to do anything that isn't EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE for children to see. Serious trial cases are not extremely offensive and there would be nothing wrong with a child getting his or her hands on it. So why do you need the MAX banner?

[Alan2099]

I;'m against any major mainstream characters becoming Max titles. Let that niche fall to the more obscure one that could use a jolt of life in them anyway.

[DeadXMan]

A Pad MAX Book dose appeal to me.

[AllisterH]

I'm not sure how much more serious you can get than Date Rape (Still didn't like the Starfox story).

That said, I'm thinking Byrne would be the best choice as he is definitely the guy that created the SHe-HUlk we know and love.

Looking back at Sensational, I'm surprised at the amount of stuff he got away with. But then again, most of it was just comments such as "Why is it that I (She-hulk) always end up on my back" (Damn near busted a gut laughing when I read tha)

[AllisterH]

I'm not sure how much more serious you can get than Date Rape (Still didn't like the Starfox story).

That said, I'm thinking Byrne would be the best choice as he is definitely the guy that created the SHe-HUlk we know and love.

Looking back at Sensational, I'm surprised at the amount of stuff he got away with. But then again, most of it was just comments such as "Why is it that I (She-hulk) always end up on my back" (Damn near busted a gut laughing when I read tha)

[Robo Ape]

I equate it to that because that's the only thing that you could possibly do that you would not want children to see. Serious criminal issues may be too complicated for a 9-year-old to read in a mainstream title, but that doesn't mean it can't be done in a mainstream title, because there is nothing about a serious court case that would be immediately offensive and not for the eyes of children. When she was a lawyer, there was plenty of more serious criminal issues that couldn't be properly dealt with because the title was a comedy title. Humor was the major focus of the title and as such, a double homocide/rape case just isn't funny and won't appear.

It doesn't have to be a MAX title to be serious. It just needs a writer who wants to take a serious look at the character, which is actually what it has now. Like I said before, you don't need the MAX banner if you're not going to do anything that isn't EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE for children to see. Serious trial cases are not extremely offensive and there would be nothing wrong with a child getting his or her hands on it. So why do you need the MAX banner?

I wouldn't say that She Hulk was a particularly child friendly title anyway. I am not sure you should be seeking to limit the title just in an effort to keep it family friendly.

Also this point about only using so called obscure characters on the MAX line could be called into question as I wouldn't say She Hulk is any more well known or high profile than the Punisher, in fact you could argue that the Punisher is a bigger character than She Hulk as he has managed to have two motion pictures made about him, something She Hulk has so far not achieved.

[Mark_S]

I was looking at the Bomb Queen thread over in the Image section and it occured to me a battle between She-Hulk and Bomb Queen would qualify as a Max title.

Mark_S

[Robo Ape]

I was looking at the Bomb Queen thread over in the Image section and it occured to me a battle between She-Hulk and Bomb Queen would qualify as a Max title.

Mark_S

I would pay good money for that title should it ever be produced!:eek:

[Tobias Drake]

I wouldn't say that She Hulk was a particularly child friendly title anyway. I am not sure you should be seeking to limit the title just in an effort to keep it family friendly.

Limit? What are you talking about? I'm not trying to "limit" the title at all. Marvel's regular 616 line isn't all family friendly. People die. Children die. Nitro murders 600 people including an elementary school. Punisher kills people. Spider-Man makes a deal with Mephisto. Felicia Hardy was raped on flashback and ALMOST raped on panel. How much more serious does it honestly need to be? How much more serious than on-panel massacre and rape are you trying to go that you need the MAX imprint?

EDIT: More examples: The X-Men have a black ops assassination team. One man was decapitated on-panel at Camp Hammond, another man had his head shot clear through. Boy, that 616 imprint sure is "limiting", huh?

[Mark_S]

Limit? What are you talking about? I'm not trying to "limit" the title at all. Marvel's regular 616 line isn't all family friendly. People die. Children die. Nitro murders 600 people including an elementary school. Punisher kills people. Spider-Man makes a deal with Mephisto. Felicia Hardy was raped on flashback and ALMOST raped on panel. How much more serious does it honestly need to be? How much more serious than on-panel massacre and rape are you trying to go that you need the MAX imprint?

EDIT: More examples: The X-Men have a black ops assassination team. One man was decapitated on-panel at Camp Hammond, another man had his head shot clear through. Boy, that 616 imprint sure is "limiting", huh?

Agreed, marvel is anything but kid friendly, I don't think they know how to write stories that aren't dark.

Mark_S

[Robo Ape]

Limit? What are you talking about? I'm not trying to "limit" the title at all. Marvel's regular 616 line isn't all family friendly. People die. Children die. Nitro murders 600 people including an elementary school. Punisher kills people. Spider-Man makes a deal with Mephisto. Felicia Hardy was raped on flashback and ALMOST raped on panel. How much more serious does it honestly need to be? How much more serious than on-panel massacre and rape are you trying to go that you need the MAX imprint?

EDIT: More examples: The X-Men have a black ops assassination team. One man was decapitated on-panel at Camp Hammond, another man had his head shot clear through. Boy, that 616 imprint sure is "limiting", huh?

Yeah well plenty of violence doesn't equal maturity does it, as I keep saying their is more to mature storytelling that ratcheting up the violence. You keep conflating excessive amounts of violence & the like with mature story lines, they are not one & the same thing. Are all Vertigo titles excessively violent, no their not but they still manage to tell a story in a mature fashion.

[Alan2099]

Right now, Marvel seems to be trying to do what a little kid might call a mature storyline, not understanding that death, destruction, people being depressed, and things that go boom aren't all it takes.

[Tobias Drake]

Yeah well plenty of violence doesn't equal maturity does it, as I keep saying their is more to mature storytelling that ratcheting up the violence. You keep conflating excessive amounts of violence & the like with mature story lines, they are not one & the same thing. Are all Vertigo titles excessively violent, no their not but they still manage to tell a story in a mature fashion.

I'm not conflating excessive amounts of violence and the like with mature storylines. I'm conflating massive amounts of violence with the need for a Mature warning label. The two are completely different. The Mature warning label means "Do not buy this title for your children because there is incredibly offensive material in this such as bloody violence and nudity." It does not mean "This title contains very mature, adult-oriented storylines that are presented in a respectable manner." Again, if there is nothing that would be offensive to a child's eyes in the title, why do you need a seperate imprint? Why can't you tell good, mature stories in the 616?

I just don't see why you need to basically slap an NC-17 warning label on the cover if you're not going to have anything you wouldn't want children seeing. That's what I don't get. It has nothing to do with violence equating to maturity at all. I just don't see the point of using a seperate imprint to tell stories you can tell under the same imprint.

[filthysize]

Word. Let's not confuse warning labels with vocabulary, people.

[Gnarl]

It'd be worth my time and money :) A little sexy fun is totally in keeping with She-Hulk's character. And sexy fun is a worthy goal all on its own.

Quoted for truth.

[Robo Ape]

I'm not conflating excessive amounts of violence and the like with mature storylines. I'm conflating massive amounts of violence with the need for a Mature warning label. The two are completely different. The Mature warning label means "Do not buy this title for your children because there is incredibly offensive material in this such as bloody violence and nudity." It does not mean "This title contains very mature, adult-oriented storylines that are presented in a respectable manner." Again, if there is nothing that would be offensive to a child's eyes in the title, why do you need a seperate imprint? Why can't you tell good, mature stories in the 616?

I just don't see why you need to basically slap an NC-17 warning label on the cover if you're not going to have anything you wouldn't want children seeing. That's what I don't get. It has nothing to do with violence equating to maturity at all. I just don't see the point of using a seperate imprint to tell stories you can tell under the same imprint.

But you cannot tell a fully mature storyline within a family friendly title, it just isn't possible their are always going to be limits by keeping to a so called family friendly basis & that's why if you really want to do a proper mature storyline you have to move it to something like MAX.

If this wasn't the case their would have been no need for DC to create a separate comics line in the form of Vertigo.

[Tobias Drake]

But you cannot tell a fully mature storyline within a family friendly title, it just isn't possible their are always going to be limits by keeping to a so called family friendly basis & that's why if you really want to do a proper mature storyline you have to move it to something like MAX.

If this wasn't the case their would have been no need for DC to create a separate comics line in the form of Vertigo.

Alright, then explain it to me. What, exactly, do you need to do in a MAX title because you can't do it in a 616 title? You keep saying there are limits to what you can do. Explain those limits. How do you define a "mature storyline" that cannot be told within the confines of the 616?

[Radical]

If Marvel wants to turn a "regular" book into a MAX title, then they should do Ghost Rider or something like that.

[Venom Melendez]

What the big deal with MAX titles anyway? the fact that they can drop the F-bomb?



I've read good MAX titles like Punisher and BKV's Hood mini but not every character deserves one.
She-Hulk doesn't seem like the type of character for one.

If Marvel wants to turn a "regular" book into a MAX title, then they should do Ghost Rider or something like that.

second.

[Robo Ape]

Alright, then explain it to me. What, exactly, do you need to do in a MAX title because you can't do it in a 616 title? You keep saying there are limits to what you can do. Explain those limits. How do you define a "mature storyline" that cannot be told within the confines of the 616?

I will throw it back at you as how many of storylines that are portrayed in mainstream TV show like L & O: SVU could you do in a 616 universe story, not many I bet. I really cannot see court cases/storylines involving child abuse & the like being done in She Hulk as it stands now!

[HaroldAllnut]

She-Hulk Smash in Bedroom?

HOO HOO HOO.

The possibilities are endless. ENDLESS, I say!

[Tobias Drake]

I will throw it back at you as how many of storylines that are portrayed in mainstream TV show like L & O: SVU could you do in a 616 universe story, not many I bet. I really cannot see court cases/storylines involving child abuse & the like being done in She Hulk as it stands now!

Child abuse? Rahne Sinclair. Try again.

[Venom Melendez]

Child abuse? Rahne Sinclair. Try again.


And not to mention occasional cases with rape in 616.

[Radical]

Agreed, marvel is anything but kid friendly, I don't think they know how to write stories that aren't dark.

Mark_S

I've felt the same way about DC ever since Identity Crisis.

[IamtheRock3]

But you cannot tell a fully mature storyline within a family friendly title, it just isn't possible their are always going to be limits by keeping to a so called family friendly basis & that's why if you really want to do a proper mature storyline you have to move it to something like MAX.

If this wasn't the case their would have been no need for DC to create a separate comics line in the form of Vertigo.

Lot of vertigo titles are vertigo cause it not connected to DCU as much. Its stand alone.

Simon Dark COULD be vertigo if they FELT like it. They just choose not to. Like Suicide Squad has some mature themes. So does LEX LUTHOR MAN OF STEAL and Arkum Asulyum.


I wouldnt mind a max she hulk titlte for reason I mention above

But think people think by making a mature imprint, they will put all thier MATURE stories there, and make regular marvel more softer.

[IamtheRock3]

I will throw it back at you as how many of storylines that are portrayed in mainstream TV show like L & O: SVU could you do in a 616 universe story, not many I bet. I really cannot see court cases/storylines involving child abuse & the like being done in She Hulk as it stands now!

know this talking about DC

but ever heard of the Gotham police title, Had a story about people coming out and very old school Latino familiy and other tough issues

or

Green Arrow/Green Lantern

[Robo Ape]

know this talking about DC

but ever heard of the Gotham police title, Had a story about people coming out and very old school Latino familiy and other tough issues

or

Green Arrow/Green Lantern

I know the title you mean I used to read it & it was one of the best DC titles of recent times. It's storylines were somewhat ahead of even the best She Hulk storylines, probable because even though they were both 'mainstream' comics it seems DC allowed the writers to go the extra mile with the stories on the title. Not something Marvel seem inclined to do with She Hulk at the moment, warnings on the cover or not, hence if that's how their going to treat the title a move to MAX may assist it's growth.

I really don't see why people are so opposed to this move, do you really think its going to ruin the character or something?:rolleyes:

[Parch]

If She Hulk has been an unrated 616 title then they shouldn't start randomly making mature issues. They've set the standard, stick with it. That doesn't mean I don't want to see a MAX She Hulk, it's just that it should be a new title and not "turn into" a MAX title. Alright, then explain it to me. What, exactly, do you need to do in a MAX title because you can't do it in a 616 title? You keep saying there are limits to what you can do. Explain those limits. How do you define a "mature storyline" that cannot be told within the confines of the 616?That's why limits have to be set. The 616 has evolved quite a bit since the 70's and more mature themes are being used, but many feel that they are now crossing the line and further guidelines are required.

Comics should have a better defined rating system, even if that means dropping the assumption that 616 is for everyone. I don't think it is, and I don't think it should be. A title can still exist in 616 with a mature or MAX label.

But that's the problem isn't it. What is "adult" content? What is a MAX title? It's time that comics have a better rating system instead of just pushing the limit to see what they can get away with in what is considered a "for everyone" mainstream 616 title.

[Deep_Sleeper]

I agree with Dr Strange as on MAX he could easily be taken down the John Constantine route.

Tobias Drake you keep saying that so & so elements would not be appropriate in a She Hulk title but not everyone has the same perception as to what makes a good She Hulk title. Just because you don't particularly like the idea of the title being moved in a particular direction doesn't mean that others wouldn't appreciate it if it was moved in this direction.

I think She Hulk would actually have a pretty good MAX title if it was done the right way. She's an attorney who sometimes represents the bad guys. Cases where people can't exactly be judged in black and white, but in the gray area where facts decides whether someone is innocent or guilty, regardless of past cases of either.

You could work any number of things into a MAX title, including nudity and violence, but I'd say a good MAX title is one that shows you a side that's not as clear cut as you'd get in a standard Marvel U. comic.

I personally think that the Marvel U. has a good history of showcasing that gray area without brandishing a mature-readers only tag, but that doesn't mean that cannot be changed. You could always get a glorious, bright and shiny Marvel U proper and do all the conflicted and gray storyline in a MAX title.

Characters like Wolverine and Punisher are automatically thought of as MAX candidates because the amount of violence that they usually bring to the table, as well as their history as anti-heroes. I never really think of She Hulk as a MAX candidate, but I could see a reason for it's existence if it ever came to be.

[Tobias Drake]

What is "adult" content? What is a MAX title?

That's pretty much what I've been getting at right there. How do you define "adult" or "mature" content? From a ratings standpoint, it's defined by anything that you would not want minor eyes to see. Which is why it so often leads directly to large quantities of violence and nudity. Aside from that, where is the distinction? Why does there even have to be a distinction?

Some adults like really well thought out court cases and some kids like action and explosions. But some kids like well thought out court cases and some adults like action and explosions. It's a case of personal preference in that regard. When it comes to ratings systems, especially "Adult" ratings or "Mature" ratings, the core content of the storyline isn't really the issue; these ratings are applied solely by the offensive material contained therein, the violence and the nudity and anything else that nobody wants young, impressionable eyes to see, and not by the actual maturity of the story.

[gorthon616]

I know the title you mean I used to read it & it was one of the best DC titles of recent times. It's storylines were somewhat ahead of even the best She Hulk storylines, probable because even though they were both 'mainstream' comics it seems DC allowed the writers to go the extra mile with the stories on the title. Not something Marvel seem inclined to do with She Hulk at the moment, warnings on the cover or not, hence if that's how their going to treat the title a move to MAX may assist it's growth.

I really don't see why people are so opposed to this move, do you really think its going to ruin the character or something?:rolleyes:

Basically because this isn't Hellblazer, this isn't L&O: SVU, this isn't Vertigo, and this isn't (at the moment) MAX. It's She-Hulk. I mean, I'd enjoy Barney more if he ran around smoking weed and shooting people with a shotgun, but I can accept that Barney isn't all shotguns and drugs.

The question isn't why don't we it, the question is why would we do it? So I can go into the grisly details of a child abuse or rape case? So rather than generic "I punch him, he get hurt," we see fractures and broken bones and brain damage? Sure that's a way to go about doing things, but it's not the way its being done and you haven't said anything to show that it's better.

"Mature" does not equal quality. And I'm not just talking about drugs, sex, and violence. Pick up Bone. It's "for all ages" and it's freaking brilliant. Making things Mature doesn't make things better. If fact most of the times, it's just a cheap thrill. The Mature/Adult rating or impression is typically just a euphemism for something generically bad, though not prohibitively bad, that we treat as being "complex" and "requiring unique experience to understand" even though we're just into it because we find it to be amusing.

[Tobias Drake]

Basically because this isn't Hellblazer, this isn't L&O: SVU, this isn't Vertigo, and this isn't (at the moment) MAX. It's She-Hulk. I mean, I'd enjoy Barney more if he ran around smoking weed and shooting people with a shotgun, but I can accept that Barney isn't all shotguns and drugs.

The question isn't why don't we it, the question is why would we do it? So I can go into the grisly details of a child abuse or rape case? So rather than generic "I punch him, he get hurt," we see fractures and broken bones and brain damage? Sure that's a way to go about doing things, but it's not the way its being done and you haven't said anything to show that it's better.

"Mature" does not equal quality. And I'm not just talking about drugs, sex, and violence. Pick up Bone. It's "for all ages" and it's freaking brilliant. Making things Mature doesn't make things better. If fact most of the times, it's just a cheap thrill. The Mature/Adult rating or impression is typically just a euphemism for something generically bad, though not prohibitively bad, that we treat as being "complex" and "requiring unique experience to understand" even though we're just into it because we find it to be amusing.

Thank you. You are better with words than I am.

[Shadowstray]

A preview of She-Hulk #30 from Peter David's website:

http://www.comicmix.com/news/2008/04/09/preview-she-hulk-30/

Thought it was kinda appropriate for this discussion.:rolleyes:

[gorthon616]

Thank you. You are better with words than I am.

Thanks yourself. I was definitely reading your post when I was working on mine.

A preview of She-Hulk #30 from Peter David's website:

http://www.comicmix.com/news/2008/04/09/preview-she-hulk-30/

Thought it was kinda appropriate for this discussion.:rolleyes:

:confused: So are you saying that the current non-MAX title is sufficient to cover Mature material? Or are you saying we need to shunt this to the MAX title because the subject is tending towards MAX material?

[JoshBot]

I think She Hulk would actually have a pretty good MAX title if it was done the right way. She's an attorney who sometimes represents the bad guys. Cases where people can't exactly be judged in black and white, but in the gray area where facts decides whether someone is innocent or guilty, regardless of past cases of either.
Also: green boobs. GREEN BOOBS.

[Tobias Drake]

A preview of She-Hulk #30 from Peter David's website:

http://www.comicmix.com/news/2008/04/09/preview-she-hulk-30/

Thought it was kinda appropriate for this discussion.:rolleyes:

Hercules goes where every man has gone before!

[Robo Ape]

Thanks yourself. I was definitely reading your post when I was working on mine.



:confused: So are you saying that the current non-MAX title is sufficient to cover Mature material? Or are you saying we need to shunt this to the MAX title because the subject is tending towards MAX material?

I think the title has been going that way for sometime, which is the point I have been trying to make since I started this thread.:rolleyes: That being the case why not just go the extra bit of distance & make it a MAX title. It seems some on here are blind to the fact that the title has been trending in that direction for sometime.

[gorthon616]

I think the title has been going that way for sometime, which is the point I have been trying to make since I started this thread.:rolleyes: That being the case why not just go the extra bit of distance & make it a MAX title. It seems some on here are blind to the fact that the title has been trending in that direction for sometime.

I think modern culture has been going that way for sometime, particularly when it comes to modern art and expression. While I would agree that labeling stamps for this type of stuff would be appropriate, since the death of the standard comics code of authority this type of thing is pretty standard fare. And notice how you still ignore the point about how you make no argument that "going that extra distance into the MAX line" would equate to being better. :rolleyes: I mean, yes, going that extra distance and showing big green boobs would certainly make the book more "mature" and thus "better". :rolleyes:

and if you haven't noticed, people who use the rolleyes smile make me -> :rolleyes:

[Drdmx]

My two cents... I just dont think it really matters. Would it change whether or not you read it?

[Dr. Chaos]

A preview of She-Hulk #30 from Peter David's website:

http://www.comicmix.com/news/2008/04/09/preview-she-hulk-30/

Thought it was kinda appropriate for this discussion.:rolleyes:
Certainly not what I was expecting that cover to lead to but hey, speaking as someone who really didn't want to see bad blood between Herc & Jen (assuming she doesn't kick his ass after the pillow talk), this is actually kind of a nice surprise.

Best superhero hero team up ever.

[Parch]

My two cents... I just dont think it really matters. Would it change whether or not you read it?I think there is a reluctance to label a title "mature". It's a shame that Vertigo titles don't sell better. I'm not really sure how well MAX titles sell, but I don't think they're big sellers either.

Companies would rather push the limit with their content and keep it an "all ages" title than take the plunge and make it a mature title. I'm sure there is a fear that sales would decline if a title like She Hulk was turned into a MAX title.

[Robo Ape]

I think there is a reluctance to label a title "mature". It's a shame that Vertigo titles don't sell better. I'm not really sure how well MAX titles sell, but I don't think they're big sellers either.

Companies would rather push the limit with their content and keep it an "all ages" title than take the plunge and make it a mature title. I'm sure there is a fear that sales would decline if a title like She Hulk was turned into a MAX title.

See I would rather that they were more honest & rather than keep trying to stretch the all-ages limit that they actually bit the bullet & moved certain titles over to publishing lines such as MAX.

I am not sure that moving a title such as She Hulk over to MAX would make much different sales wise, I cannot imagine many kids read the title anyway.

The same way I support stuff going to MAX I am glad to see that both of the main two publishers have looked to start publishing lines specifically designed to get kids interested in comics, something they should have done long before they actually got around to doing it.