What is Marvel Trying to Achieve?

[jackolover]

If Marvel wanted to return the Marvel Universe back to the time when Antman roamed the world in the early 60's, then have they achieved this?

For Marvel to have turned the clock back, here are a few clues as to what they've done :

Namor has now lost his kingdom.
Doom has been reverted to his pre-FF days, with no Tech and no Kingdom.
Spiderman has returned to being a hero others are suspicious of, although the art is too personal. [They should have got Steve Ditko to return, and retcon Norman Osborn away from the Goblin persona, ad that would make Harry an ordinary citizen. It would also require the Goblin in TBolts to be a Skrull, or, an alternate, mystery identity].
The Mighty Avengers are the hero squad.
The FF are an adventurous independant squad, with no ties to other books.
Thor has just appeared and begun to rediscover his Asgardian roots.
Iron Man is an Industrialist again.
Hank Pym in a lone inventor, again.
Bruce Banner is a scientist again and a new Hulk has just reappeared.
There is only 198 mutants in the world, now.
The New Avengers are looked at as a suspicious team of criminals - including Cage, and Hawkeye.
Cap has been dead, and has mysteriously reappeared.

Except for the Registration being in force, the MU resembles what it was, back in the 60's. Does anybody get the feel of the 60's from the books now, because I certainly haven't. Warren Ellis is the exception here, because Ellis makes every 3rd rate hero and villian look fresh. I wish Marvel could retain the same kind of freshness over the whole range of books.

[prodigy]

....Who is suspicious of Spider-Man?

If they are, they're an idiot.

[Keith_Martineau]

Yes, Marvel is trying to achieve that.

Not the 60's feel---but the dynamics and excitement the MU had in that era. Joe Q and editorial at large feels that was a more exciting, "don't know what will happen next" time for the MU. Not every one was a mutant, not everyone was a hero, and not everyone trusted every other hero and teamed up at every opportunity.

[Chino]

.
Doom has been reverted to his pre-FF days, with no Tech and no Kingdom.


Did I miss something?

[Expletive Deleted]

Did I miss something?He was arrested by SHIELD in MIGHTY AVENGERS.

I have no idea how that translates to a reversion in status quo, much less to "pre-FF days," but I think that's what jackolover is referring to.

[TotalWorldDomination]

The real anwser to the question is "Profit".

Now that I got snarky anwser out of the way, I'll get snippy- yes Marvel is intent on making comics more like they were "when I was a kid". The nostalgia is strong in them, so much so that you'd think they were publishing JSA. Spidy has been the most obvious, blatant and shocking of the retrogeneration, but other books have suffered from it.

BUT in marvel's defense, some books have not been restored in this manner. The current Iron Man book is clearly not his 1960's status-quo (though Fraction's book seems to be a 60's throwback), Hulk has been kicked out of his own regular and replaced by a red creature. The Initative has changed the fate of every B-Level team in the country. The X-Men, while back to there "fighting for survial" norm have disbanded there classic members and have become far more cutthrought and willing to kill (Young X-Men and X-Force both will be killing apparently).

[ShaggyB]

Did I miss something?

Nope, hes wrong.

Dooms is shown recently as having tech that is as good as ironman. He also uses magic more now. He still has his country but has just been captured for crimes against the US and thrown in jail by shield.

[Monty_Cristo]

If Marvel wanted to return the Marvel Universe back to the time when Antman roamed the world in the early 60's, then have they achieved this?

For Marvel to have turned the clock back, here are a few clues as to what they've done :

Namor has now lost his kingdom.
Doom has been reverted to his pre-FF days, with no Tech and no Kingdom.
Spiderman has returned to being a hero others are suspicious of, although the art is too personal. [They should have got Steve Ditko to return, and retcon Norman Osborn away from the Goblin persona, ad that would make Harry an ordinary citizen. It would also require the Goblin in TBolts to be a Skrull, or, an alternate, mystery identity].
The Mighty Avengers are the hero squad.
The FF are an adventurous independant squad, with no ties to other books.
Thor has just appeared and begun to rediscover his Asgardian roots.
Iron Man is an Industrialist again.
Hank Pym in a lone inventor, again.
Bruce Banner is a scientist again and a new Hulk has just reappeared.
There is only 198 mutants in the world, now.
The New Avengers are looked at as a suspicious team of criminals - including Cage, and Hawkeye.
Cap has been dead, and has mysteriously reappeared.

Except for the Registration being in force, the MU resembles what it was, back in the 60's. Does anybody get the feel of the 60's from the books now, because I certainly haven't. Warren Ellis is the exception here, because Ellis makes every 3rd rate hero and villian look fresh. I wish Marvel could retain the same kind of freshness over the whole range of books.


i think their overall goal is entertainment. the problem is that not everyone is entertained the same way. i think it's better than an infinite crisis-style reboot. and ant-man's still roaming the world...and a few showers.

[Chino]

Nope, hes wrong.

Dooms is shown recently as having tech that is as good as ironman. He also uses magic more now. He still has his country but has just been captured for crimes against the US and thrown in jail by shield.

His last appearance was in MA no? Where his mask is ripped off by superm...err, the Sentry?

Anyways, back on topic I guess. Sorry for hijacking the thread :o

[agrich]

I think you're reaching a bit.

Millar and Hitch are a high-profile team from their Ultimates work, plus they've got a history of delays. It makes sense that while they're on the book Marvel would let them do their own thing with the Fantastic Four.

Some of the "return to the 60s" notions you offer could be called returns to the '80s, or other periods in the last 40 years -- it happens every so often that a new creative team comes on and brings a book "back to the basics." Take the X-Men; in the 80s if there were more than 198 mutants, it's not like we ever saw them. The X-Men, the New Mutants, a few recurring Morlocks characters.

Namor has also found and lost his kingdom at various points in his history, depending on what the writer wanted to do with the character.

Cap has been "dead," replaced, whatever, from time to time.

Spider-man's worst relationship with the general public was probably the '70s -- scenes of cops shooting at him as he swung away from a crime scene were not uncommon (after Captain Stacy's death, after Norman Osborn's death, etc.).

Certainly some creators have nostalgia for previous eras of comics, but that's also something that dates back to the '80s, like when Byrne was on Fantastic Four, as a for instance.

[StoneGold]

The weird part is, half the stuff mentioned here is either wrong, or was never like this in the past.



For Marvel to have turned the clock back, here are a few clues as to what they've done :

Namor has now lost his kingdom.Just the physical location. He's still in command of its people. Which is significantly different than FF#4. In any event, Namor has been constantly gaining and losing is kingdom for the past 40 years.
Doom has been reverted to his pre-FF days, with no Tech and no Kingdom.Except Doom never really existed pre-FF, so I'm not sure what you are getting at.
Spiderman has returned to being a hero others are suspicious of, although the art is too personal. [They should have got Steve Ditko to return, and retcon Norman Osborn away from the Goblin persona, ad that would make Harry an ordinary citizen. It would also require the Goblin in TBolts to be a Skrull, or, an alternate, mystery identity]. Except that's what Spidey's been for 95% of his existence.
The Mighty Avengers are the hero squad. Ditto
The FF are an adventurous independant squad, with no ties to other books.Ditto again.
Thor has just appeared and begun to rediscover his Asgardian roots.Every other arc on Thor.
Iron Man is an Industrialist again. No, he's a civil servant now.
Hank Pym in a lone inventor, again. No, he's a civil servant now.
Bruce Banner is a scientist again and a new Hulk has just reappeared.No, he's a prisoner of the state now
There is only 198 mutants in the world, now.Yeah, but there was never 198 before. This one is kind of a weird one though, because although the idea was to make mutants more special like they used to be, the "death" of mutancy really changes everything.
The New Avengers are looked at as a suspicious team of criminals - including Cage, and Hawkeye.Except they never really were before, even when they were a team of criminals, except in retcons.
Cap has been dead, and has mysteriously reappeared.First, inaccurate, second, when has that ever happened before?

[Parch]

They remake movies and songs all the time. Many comics are also getting redone. After 40+ years of a character there is only so much "new" content and storyline that can be done successfully. Ultimately cycling back to what worked before is logical.

I'm sure there are hardcore fans who have read 40+ years of a certain character, but the majority of readers have not. The remake works. Just look at the success of the Ultimate universe for proof.

[Camron Amaya]

"the art is too personal"??

[StoneGold]

"the art is too personal"??

For that matter, get Steve Ditko back? Have you seen Ditko's pencils in the last 20-30 years? Blech. Some guys are just past their prime. You hit a certain age, the eyes and the hand start to go. Sad but true. The number of artists working in their 60s and 70s who can still hold a pencil as well as in their 30s... let's just say it's a relatively rare breed. They're our there - Russ Heath, Joe Kubert, John Buscema right up until his death, and others - but the number of guys who deteriorate to crap levels far outnumber them.

[jackolover]

I think you're reaching a bit.

Millar and Hitch are a high-profile team from their Ultimates work, plus they've got a history of delays. It makes sense that while they're on the book Marvel would let them do their own thing with the Fantastic Four.

Some of the "return to the 60s" notions you offer could be called returns to the '80s, or other periods in the last 40 years -- it happens every so often that a new creative team comes on and brings a book "back to the basics." Take the X-Men; in the 80s if there were more than 198 mutants, it's not like we ever saw them. The X-Men, the New Mutants, a few recurring Morlocks characters.

Namor has also found and lost his kingdom at various points in his history, depending on what the writer wanted to do with the character.

Cap has been "dead," replaced, whatever, from time to time.

Spider-man's worst relationship with the general public was probably the '70s -- scenes of cops shooting at him as he swung away from a crime scene were not uncommon (after Captain Stacy's death, after Norman Osborn's death, etc.).

Certainly some creators have nostalgia for previous eras of comics, but that's also something that dates back to the '80s, like when Byrne was on Fantastic Four, as a for instance.

Then let me reacquaint you with some recent revelations. Have you realized that during the Damage Control storyline a building came to life, just like was so common in Tales to Astonish, just before the age of the heroes? And what about the introduction of the Skrulls. In Tales of Suspense they used to job aliens in 6 pages every month, but this time, Marvel have made the Skrulls a force to be reconned with, instead of the lame 'cow in the meadows' they introduced them with.
Another case in point, you will notice that one of Thors first opponents were the Stone Men of outer space, and here,today, we again have this same character from that bygone era in the pages of the Warbound.

This may all be coincidence, but I get a real feel that Marvel are trying to relive those glory days, when nobody knew what was going to happen next, and, that the heros were not so well acquainted as they had been before 911.

I haven't really felt it yet, like I did back in the 60's when I read those books, then, but it's early yet.

[StoneGold]

This may all be coincidence, but I get a real feel that Marvel are trying to relive those glory days, when nobody knew what was going to happen next, and, that the heros were not so well acquainted as they had been before 911.


Well, yeah. Quesada has said specifically that he wants to get back to an "anything can happen" atmosphere. This isn't much of a revelation. Still, some of your "evidence" is inaccurate.

[jackolover]

"the art is too personal"??

Yeah, that one was hard to explain. Remember that cartoony art, where you didn't get the impression of the character, just the symbol, flying around. Modern artists are so real in their depictions, and you can't get separation from the character. That's what I wanted to convey.

It doesn't necessarily have to be Ditko, but someone like that, where you can see the Spiderman swinging around, and not just some kid, named Peter Parker, wearing a costume.

[jackolover]

Well, yeah. Quesada has said specifically that he wants to get back to an "anything can happen" atmosphere. This isn't much of a revelation. Still, some of your "evidence" is inaccurate.

My evidence may not be spot on, but the situations that the characters find themselves are similar to the olden days. It basically cleans the slate of what's gone before, to a large extent. All we need is Namor to get amnesia, and Bruce Banner to be let out of prison, and we could be there.

[agrich]

And what about the introduction of the Skrulls. In Tales of Suspense they used to job aliens in 6 pages every month, but this time, Marvel have made the Skrulls a force to be reconned with, instead of the lame 'cow in the meadows' they introduced them with.

Er, so how exactly does this example help your point about Marvel "turning the clock back to the 60s"? If back then the Skrulls were "lame," but now they're "a force to be reckoned with," doesn't that kind of contradict your entire argument?

[carabas]

Well, yeah. Quesada has said specifically that he wants to get back to an "anything can happen" atmosphere.It kinda defeats the purpose of "anything can happen" when at the same time you make it very clear that whatever happens will be undone if characters stray too far far from the way they were portrayed in the seventies, even if it takes wiping out the 99,999% of the entire mutant race or Peter Parker making a demonic pact to enforce the status quo.

[Will.S]

I think they're trying to create an interesting era and like StoneGold said, an unpredictable one.

I'd love to see an artist draw a big portrait of all the MU characters with all of their recent status quo's similar to the way they did those in the 70's and 80's:

http://www.dynamicforces.com/images/herosvillmarmaster.jpg

[jackolover]

Er, so how exactly does this example help your point about Marvel "turning the clock back to the 60s"? If back then the Skrulls were "lame," but now they're "a force to be reckoned with," doesn't that kind of contradict your entire argument?

Not the point.

Marvel have gone back to the sixties, but they don't want to redo the sixties, they want to do it better.

[jackolover]

You mean like a heart condition that requires walking around in a mobile tank? Or going all wonky whenever you get pissed off enough? How about getting all weak when you don't hold on to a weapon for a minute?

And while they may not have always had these "somethings," they all did for 10-20 years of their initial existence.

I like where you are going with this Gold.

There are some falabilities that the heroes haven't been straddled with for a long time. Maybe this will be addressed in upcoming stories. I can see Tony Stark loosing the extremis, if that is the case, although it would make him less interesting.

[agrich]

Not the point.

Marvel have gone back to the sixties, but they don't want to redo the sixties, they want to do it better.

Again, I think your point is a reach. You're talking about this like it's something new. What is the Ultimate Universe but an attempt to redo those classic characters and stories? What was the whole, horrible year-long "Heroes Reborn" event in the '90s, but a perfect example of what you're saying - redoing all those major characters' origins, but doing them "better"?

Throughout comic history, creators - who often grew up reading comics from the 60s, or 70s, or even 80s now - like to give nods to past concepts and stories and characters. It's not something new, it's not something specific to Marvel, it's something comics have always done. Heck, even resurrecting Captain America and Namor in the 60s was something done out of a certain nostalgia for those characters in the 40s. (Speaking of which, what about books like The Twelve, and the endless Invaders revivals over the years? Nostalgia for the 40s?)

I'd call what's being done with the Skrulls similar to what guys like John Byrne and Frank Miller did in the '80s -- taking characters who had become tired and revitalizing them. The Kingpin, for example, had long since ceased to be particularly imposing in Spider-man: he was just a fairly one-dimensional fat guy crimelord. Miller took that worn-out character and made him into a legend. So, Bendis has now taken the Skrulls and is making them scary. I don't see it as him redoing the 60s, personally. I think he and for that matter Quesada might have nostalgia for a slightly more recent era.

[Netley]

I think they're trying to create an interesting era and like StoneGold said, an unpredictable one.

I'd love to see an artist draw a big portrait of all the MU characters with all of their recent status quo's similar to the way they did those in the 70's and 80's:

http://www.dynamicforces.com/images/herosvillmarmaster.jpg

I definitely agree on both counts!


I'd call what's being done with the Skrulls similar to what guys like John Byrne and Frank Miller did in the '80s -- taking characters who had become tired and revitalizing them. The Kingpin, for example, had long since ceased to be particularly imposing in Spider-man: he was just a fairly one-dimensional fat guy crimelord. Miller took that worn-out character and made him into a legend. So, Bendis has now taken the Skrulls and is making them scary. I don't see it as him redoing the 60s, personally. I think he and for that matter Quesada might have nostalgia for a slightly more recent era.

Totally. SI isn't necessarily a nostalgia-driven tale (although that cover painting of the 70s characters is pretty retro-pleasing haha), it's more of a Skrulls-as-actually-terrifying take on the bodysnatcher-archetype storyline. I think there will be all kinds of cool nostalgic moments and creative nods to previous decades of the MU, but the main drive of the story is to progress the overall narrative so it remains in a state of "anything can happen" (which I am highly enjoying).

[jackolover]

So, Bendis has now taken the Skrulls and is making them scary. I don't see it as him redoing the 60s, personally. I think he and for that matter Quesada might have nostalgia for a slightly more recent era.

What more recent era?

[Netley]

What more recent era?

I would guess Quesada has a fondness for the 80s, based on the overall tone he implemented into Marvel Knights when he first got that gig.

[Reptisaurus!]

For that matter, get Steve Ditko back? Have you seen Ditko's pencils in the last 20-30 years? Blech.

You only read Marvel, though, right?

You seen Steve Ditko on any of the stuff he actually cares about, that he wrote himself?

Still pretty damn good.

Granted, the dialog is 90% borderline-unreadable objectivist philosophy, but the art is sure pretty.

And if the OP reaches anymore, he's gonna fall and break something.

[TheORKINMan]

The only thing I've seen reverted back to the past is the Spiderman books, which are also the only ones screwing the pooch atm.

Avengers/Thor/Cosmic Marvel/Captain America/X Men all have taken very new and interesting turns, not rehashes.

[SeritoNiN]

I don't understand the initial posters complaints?

Did you like the Marvel Universe back when it was predictable and everything had a happy ending?

If you do, that still exists...but it's over @ DC with everything they're doing.

I like the unresolved conflict of civil war still hanging over peoples heads, actually, I feel they've tapered off a bit from it, more than I'd like, but with SI coming, I guess the point will be moot anyway.

I like the darker, anything can happen feeling. Things were boring for an awfully long time, it's nice to know things, endings are more realistic now, not everything gets perfectly put back in place by the last issue of an arc.

I love what Marvel is doing and what they've been doing for about 2 years now.

[StoneGold]

I like where you are going with this Gold.

There are some falabilities that the heroes haven't been straddled with for a long time. Maybe this will be addressed in upcoming stories. I can see Tony Stark loosing the extremis, if that is the case, although it would make him less interesting.

Guh, did you quote me from another thread? Because you confused the hell out of me for a sec! I was trying to figure out who I was responding to, and I got lost!

[StoneGold]

You only read Marvel, though, right?

You seen Steve Ditko on any of the stuff he actually cares about, that he wrote himself?

Still pretty damn good.

Granted, the dialog is 90% borderline-unreadable objectivist philosophy, but the art is sure pretty.

And if the OP reaches anymore, he's gonna fall and break something.

I've seen stuff, still not a huge fan of anything current.

[StoneGold]

I don't understand the initial posters complaints?


Oddly, I don't think he's really complaining, just trying to notice, but the thought is coming out a tad muddled. Too many ideas being shoved into too small a space, and none of them are coming out quite right. And the topic was presented a bit confrontationally.

[jackolover]

The only thing I've seen reverted back to the past is the Spiderman books, which are also the only ones screwing the pooch atm.

Avengers/Thor/Cosmic Marvel/Captain America/X Men all have taken very new and interesting turns, not rehashes.

Yeah. I forgot about Captain Marvel reintroduced into the Universe. I'll have to put that in my list.

[jackolover]

Guh, did you quote me from another thread? Because you confused the hell out of me for a sec! I was trying to figure out who I was responding to, and I got lost!

Sorry. I couldn't help but use your quote from somewhere else. My Bad.

[StoneGold]

Sorry. I couldn't help but use your quote from somewhere else. My Bad.

It's no biggy, I was just trying to remember who the hell I was talking to, and I got lost.

[jackolover]

I don't understand the initial posters complaints?

Did you like the Marvel Universe back when it was predictable and everything had a happy ending?



Pre-Civil War, I was getting very tired of the Marvel Universe. As soon as CW struck, I sat up straight and took notice. However, you do hit on a note of dissatisfaction on my part. As much as Marvel have tried to redirection the books with all these changes, it hasn't kept me as a reader. I currently will be dropping the Secret Invasion stuff until anything on the boards makes me interested. I'm down to the FF, and Cap, and TBolts.

I wanted to like the place Marvel took us after the CW, but..... I don't know. Things in the Universe didn't quite hit the mark for me. The atmosphere is darker, but not enough. I wanted real fallout from CW, with Spidey bitter, and the NA completely alienated from the MA. You'd think Thors reboot would be close to being satisfactory, but I haven't picked that up.

I would want the whole resolving of the CW amongst the heros. Marvel dances around it with Tonys She-Hulk apology, Tonys open checkbook for Mays health, and Buckys backflip to become Tonys secret agent. Where is the conflict?

[Reptisaurus!]

I've seen stuff, still not a huge fan of anything current.

Fair enough, I suppose.

But I'd call it as close to an undeniable fact as you can get in the subjective world of art appreciation that recent Ditko stuff like Static and that last Mr. A story are leagues above Ditko on ROM or Squirrel Girl or (*snicker*) Power Rangers.

Well, artwise, anyway.

If Static (et. al) aren't as good as Doctor Strange, the Creeper, or Mysterious Traveller, I'd rate it higher than some of his "classic" work.

At least the giant monster stuff. Ditko had no buisiness on Gorgo. (But his Konga was OK.)

[mikekerr3]

....Who is suspicious of Spider-Man?

If they are, they're an idiot.

There is a skrull invasion going on and everybody can't rember who is under the mask. Not being wary would be stupid.

[Tobias Drake]

There is a skrull invasion going on and everybody can't rember who is under the mask. Not being wary would be stupid.

I agree completely. He publicly unmasked and suddenly everyone's memory of his identity was wiped out, right in the middle of the most paranoid time of everyone's life; I'm shocked the NA are even still talking to him, let alone allowing him in their group. At the very least, Luke "Everyone's a Skrull but me!" Cage should be freaking out.

[psm]

This may all be coincidence, but I get a real feel that Marvel are trying to relive those glory days, when nobody knew what was going to happen next, and, that the heros were not so well acquainted as they had been before 911.

I haven't really felt it yet, like I did back in the 60's when I read those books, then, but it's early yet.

Ah, I think I see what you are trying to say. Although, I don't agree with the way you are saying it. I wouldn't say Marvel is going back to the 60's. The idea of going back has the connotation of regression and nostalgia. But yes, Marvel seems to be reapplying themes that were prevalent in the 60's.

As StoneGold, mentioned Quesada stated he wanted to bring some of those things back, like superheroes not trusting each other, more relevant stories, new characters and a anything might happen attitude.

Although, I think you could make as strong of a case for the 70's too (where a lot of the same themes were still in effect if not more so). Especially, when you look at some the characters that have been spotlighted.

[Mark_S]

Pre-Civil War, I was getting very tired of the Marvel Universe. As soon as CW struck, I sat up straight and took notice. However, you do hit on a note of dissatisfaction on my part. As much as Marvel have tried to redirection the books with all these changes, it hasn't kept me as a reader. I currently will be dropping the Secret Invasion stuff until anything on the boards makes me interested. I'm down to the FF, and Cap, and TBolts.

I wanted to like the place Marvel took us after the CW, but..... I don't know. Things in the Universe didn't quite hit the mark for me. The atmosphere is darker, but not enough. I wanted real fallout from CW, with Spidey bitter, and the NA completely alienated from the MA. You'd think Thors reboot would be close to being satisfactory, but I haven't picked that up.

I would want the whole resolving of the CW amongst the heros. Marvel dances around it with Tonys She-Hulk apology, Tonys open checkbook for Mays health, and Buckys backflip to become Tonys secret agent. Where is the conflict?

Tony's appology note to She-Hulk has been explained by PAD in the She-Hulk thread in the Hulk section. It's sadly typical of marvel. I'm perhaps the premier hater of cw and what it did to Iron Man, but the aftermath didn't help any either. Like you I expected a few years of the anti-sra heroes reflecting how I felt about the situation, and the pro-sra's staunchly defending what they did and everyone dealing with a long and detailed healing process. But instead we have a few issues here, a few issues there and for the most part the anger unrepresented or treated mildly. Sue Richards comes to mind as maybe the best example of a pushover when it comes to her anger at Reed. Ben and Johny were never even dealt with.
And now we're going into SI where apparently the heroes will work together, despite the fact that no one who remembers Clor or the Hell prison in the negative zone or the Cape Killer squads should really be giving Tony Stark the time of day, let alone fighting along side him. At least not this soon. Any body who was hunted down, beaten up and thrown in prison in another reality to rot for the rest of his or her life has zero reason to fight for this planet.

I believe that a lot of that is that the writers at marvel simply don't think that anything that the pro side did was that bad. That the anti-sra side really doesn't have any right to stay mad. Many agree with them and I do not. So any co-operation in SI is going to seem pretty false to me.

But having said that I don't believe (well, not really, just sometimes) that every story conference at marvel starts with "Well, how mad can we make them now?" I think that JQ and company are really trying to write stories that are not only great but that people are enjoying. Actually the problem may be that they are trying to write Great stories, not just stories but Great Epic Important Historic stories. But often they reach for more than they can handle, the Doom dialogue in the recent Avengers is a good example of that in my opinion. Give Bendis any street level character or anyone up to the Kingpin and he can write the dialogue, but I'm not sure he has the full grasp of the English language needed to write Doom dialogue properly. You really need to know the 19th century style to write Doom dialogue. And the lack of co-ordination between any of the writers is painfully obvious with She-Hulk's situation being the best example.

I'll admit marvel is putting out some good individual titles, but overall... not really. At least not for me. A lot of it is a lingering bitterness over cw, that just isn't going away. But then I think from marvel's point of view I'm an obsolete fan. They are going for an entirely different audience now and if I go along ok, but if not they won't miss me.

Mark_S

[jackolover]

Your concept that Marvel are going for the big event, and, that Marvel are going for an entirely different audience rings true to me, too. The whole hype of the event stories has a certain adrenalin rush to it, that the post-event stories can't maintain. So that when the post event comes along, they seem mundane and blase' in comparison.

Mind you I have collected all the Initiative stuff and post-WWH, but that is it for me. I certainly hope the SI lives up to the hype, because it would be cool if the Skrulls did something substantial in the end, and not just get kicked out of earth. I'd hope that it turns out that more conflict between the heroes occurs as a result of SI than what happened in Civil War, just so some of the unresolved conflicts get addressed later.

Getting back to the point, the tone of the books in either 60's or 70's setting, but a modern style, I don't think has been handled well, and maybe that's just because I'm not the target audience. Who knows.

If you wanted to reset the Marvel characters to a more pristine nature, Amazing Spiderman comes the closest, but still doesn't hit the target, because there is no mystery involved. Spidey has been reverted back to a pre-adult, but we all know there has been some history there, and that has been ignored. All we get is 1970's Spidey without the explanation of why he fits into 2008. Then we get TBolts with villains as law enforcement, which really confuses the issue. The MU is inhomogeneous at the moment.