Why is the Punisher still a Vietnam Vet?

[maczero]

I'm guessing he's in his early to mid 40's based on his appearance, but if he fought in Vietnam then he really should be in his 60's or at least late 50's.

Shouldn't Marvel retcon his Vietnam days to a more recent military conflict or at least come up with some reason why he looks fairly young?

[Shellhead]

I'm guessing he's in his early to mid 40's based on his appearance, but if he fought in Vietnam then he really should be in his 60's or at least late 50's.

Should Marvel retcon his Vietnam days to a more recent military conflict or at least come up with some reason why he looks fairly young?

Marvel could just kill him and bring him back younger. They do that kind of thing all the time.

[Netley]

I'm guessing he's in his early to mid 40's based on his appearance, but if he fought in Vietnam then he really should be in his 60's or at least late 50's.

Should Marvel retcon his Vietnam days to a more recent military conflict or at least come up with some reason why he looks fairly young?

Maybe he's been secretly taking small doses of Fury formula to stall aging.

Timing/age-wise, it would make more chronological sense if he were a veteran of Desert Storm in the early 90s, BUT the character was created in the 70s, so Vietnam was the chronological choice at the time.

Beyond that, his Vietnam back history/flashbacks have become such an integral part of Frank Castle as a character, so it's not really something that could justifiably be changed through a modernization retcon or something.

[Kefky]

Because he's more interesting that way.

But I suppose you could come up with a "no-prize" explanation that he stole some of Fury's infinity formula so he could keep fighting his war forever.

[Kid Kyoto]

One possibility is that he was a black-ops special forces type and so still fought in Vietnam but chasing drug dealer or terrorists or something after the war was over.

But personally I'd say @#$% it! He's 60 years old, a Vietnam vet and the reason he can keep going is he's too damn mean to slow down.

Honestly, moving his military experience to Central America or the Middle East takes too much away. Vietnam is as important to him as WWII is to Captain America.

[DeadXMan]

Remember when he said he went to heaven and told god were to shove it(Ennis response to why he was no longer a spirit of vengeance in the maxi series in MK) God sent him back to earth and continued to fight his war as "punishment". and during that run Punisher was shot up sooo bad even he wondered why he isn't dead. I think God is keeping him in his prime and him alive as his punishment so that he will never know peace

[IronKing]

This argument is gonna be even funnier in 15 years. Frank will be what, 80 by then? :)

[Dr. Chaos]

Theres just someting about the darkness of the vietnam war that fits the Punisher.

Obviously, all wars are a pretty terrifying experience but theres something about the heart of darkness.

[Weapon Ick]

There's a couple ways marvel has kept characters who have origins connected to real events from aging. Professor X is living in a cloned body. Magneto was de-aged to a baby. Nick Fury uses a serum or something. As Shellhead said dying and comming back to life younger is a good way to do this too.

There have been times when Marvel has retconned a character's origin to keep them from aging like with Sharon Carter who was originally the younger sister of Captain America's girlfriend in the 40's. They just changed it and now she is her niece.

For the Punisher I would prefer any any form of technology or magic to keep him from aging over retconning the war that he served in. The Viet Nam war is absolutely important to the man that Frank Castle is. It is unique in what it represents in american history and the type of soldiers that war created. I don't believe The Punisher would symbolize the same thing had he been born out of any other war. The same could be said about Captain America.

[Alan2099]

I thought they did explain it away as when the angels brought him back to life, they brought him back in the prime of his years. Maybe that was just a fan theory i read somewhere.

[StoneGold]

You know how they don't really mention what war he fought in War Journal? But they do in MAX? The reason why they don't retcon it is because Ennis like writing him as an ancient, pissed off Nam vet.

[SnakeEater]

yeah ennis has been using Vietnam since the beginning and in the comic THE ONE REFERENCE to his age was a cover and the final released cover had the DOB censored.
the original is supposed on wikipedia (if you wanna trust that) and it says hes in his sixties.

[Kefky]

Of course, he DOES look about 70 in punisher MAX. It's in his MU appearances that they make him look relatively young.

[HeckBoy]

Until they come up w/ an actual in-story explanation for him still being in his prime, I'd prefer they just go with a "don't ask, don't tell"-type approach. Basically just let it be unless the story absolutely calls for an explanation. I'll accept the "suspension of disbelief" in the meantime.

[Blackhawkk]

Didn't Captain America train him in Viet Nam according to the flashbacks in Punisher War Journal #1-3?

Now that opens up a new can of worms!

[DeadXMan]

That wasn't the real cap.

It was just some jarhead in cap outfit. (he acted a lot like commie smasher cap though)

[rennyn]

I'm pretty sure it is just one of the many things they will continue to gloss over for a while because it seems to fit him the best.

Especially as it becomes something more nebulous in the history books, and less prone to people dismissing it as 'Gulf War Syndrome' or 'PTSD'

[rennyn]

*triple posted again* :(

[rennyn]

*triple posting, gogo laggy forum last night*

[Desmodus]

Didn't Captain America train him in Viet Nam according to the flashbacks in Punisher War Journal #1-3?

Now that opens up a new can of worms!

Not really. He is in his 50's.

In a universe of alien doppelgangers, Gamma irradiated behemoths and magic acts wiping out virtually entire species, do you really think it is that hard to say Frank is that old and still kicking arse?

He doesn't exactly get out without a scratch. He routinely gets seven shades of shite kicked out of him.

There is a lot to be said for experience.

[Cthulhudrew]

Stallone's in his early 60s. Did you see him in the latest Rambo? Still in pretty good shape.

[carabas]

Not really. He is in his 50's.

In a universe of alien doppelgangers, Gamma irradiated behemoths and magic acts wiping out virtually entire species, do you really think it is that hard to say Frank is that old and still kicking arse?It's not Frank's age that's the problem with that bit of trivia; it's that with the sliding time scale, Captain America was defrosted only about twelve years ago.

[Jeff-X]

It's not Frank's age that's the problem with that bit of trivia; it's that with the sliding time scale, Captain America was defrosted only about twelve years ago.

Punisher was already active before his first appearance in Spiderman, through backstory we learned he was in Nam and his family was killed in Central Park and yadda yadda. We have no idea how long he had been active as Punisher prior to his appearance in Spiderman, so as the timeline slides he simply becomes older and older in that first appearance.

If Cap was defrosted roughly 12 years ago, which happened in the early/mid 1960s real time, and Punisher showed up in what, '73ish? Then we've only been following his story for the last 9 years or so in Marvel time. Assume that between his family being killed in our 1970s, and the point he showed up in Marvel time roughly 9 years ago he was under the radar out on the streets killing criminals without running into any superheroes or villains which would have led to that story being published.

[TheMadTitan]

Stallone's in his early 60s. Did you see him in the latest Rambo? Still in pretty good shape.


Dude, exactly what I was going to say. If you have constantly kept yourself in shape and practiced your art )i.e. killing scum in Punishers case,) everyday then it is completely believable that he could continue to do so. Ennis' run on Max has told you everything you need to know about the character from the Tyger to Born through the series, I hope they never mess with this continuity.

Also how Rambo was portrayed in that film and the level of violence would be awesome for the Punisher Warzone movie.

[niall mc cann]

Until they come up w/ an actual in-story explanation for him still being in his prime, I'd prefer they just go with a "don't ask, don't tell"-type approach. Basically just let it be unless the story absolutely calls for an explanation. I'll accept the "suspension of disbelief" in the meantime.

Good policy.

And if you absolutely, positively must have an explaination, he did die and was brought back to life by angels, as Alan 2099 mentioned...

I'd be totally against that cropping up or being much referred to in his stories, but it's there in the continuity. Even Ennis mentioned it at one point.

[rennyn]

Dude, exactly what I was going to say. If you have constantly kept yourself in shape and practiced your art )i.e. killing scum in Punishers case,) everyday then it is completely believable that he could continue to do so. Ennis' run on Max has told you everything you need to know about the character from the Tyger to Born through the series, I hope they never mess with this continuity.

Also how Rambo was portrayed in that film and the level of violence would be awesome for the Punisher Warzone movie.

Comparing him to Sylvester Stallone isn't all that great...

So you're saying punisher takes Human Growth Hormones and steroids? :)

[Mr. Earl Brooks]

If nothing else the "darkness" or whatever that is alluded to in Punisher: Born could be responsible for his survival and toughness. It's supernatural and he's not aware of it. Even without it he's pretty hardcore. I've never had an issue with his age. In the arc "In The Beginning" he looked his oldest, Lewis Larossa drew him like Clint Eastwood, and he looked bad ass. Goran Parlov is a little more cartoony so I don't think his age comes across as well in the latest issues.

If Frank has an actual vietnam flash back, I don't know how Parlov will pull it off. He draws Frank as a middle aged guy, putting him in camo and a jungle isn't going to make him look younger.

Honestly I'm hoping that Frank Castle Dies, and a new Punisher is crowned. I would hate for Frank to be retconned.

[carabas]

Punisher was already active before his first appearance in Spiderman, through backstory we learned he was in Nam and his family was killed in Central Park and yadda yadda. We have no idea how long he had been active as Punisher prior to his appearance in Spiderman, so as the timeline slides he simply becomes older and older in that first appearance.

If Cap was defrosted roughly 12 years ago, which happened in the early/mid 1960s real time, and Punisher showed up in what, '73ish? Then we've only been following his story for the last 9 years or so in Marvel time. Assume that between his family being killed in our 1970s, and the point he showed up in Marvel time roughly 9 years ago he was under the radar out on the streets killing criminals without running into any superheroes or villains which would have led to that story being published.The problem is that it now is written that Frank Castle met the Steve Rogers Captain America during the Vietnam War. Captain America spent the entire Vietnam war (as well as the entire Cold One as well) in a block of ice. Does not compute.

[Mr. Earl Brooks]

The problem is that it now is written that Frank Castle met the Steve Rogers Captain America during the Vietnam War. Captain America spent the entire Vietnam war (as well as the entire Cold One as well) in a block of ice. Does not compute.

Ehh. War Journal sucks anyway.

[carabas]

Ehh. War Journal sucks anyway.I think it is a good book, but suffers very badly from comparison to Ennis's Punisher.
I dropped it myself because my mind rejected disparance between the two Punishers.

[Immortal]

Dude, exactly what I was going to say. If you have constantly kept yourself in shape and practiced your art )i.e. killing scum in Punishers case,) everyday then it is completely believable that he could continue to do so. Ennis' run on Max has told you everything you need to know about the character from the Tyger to Born through the series, I hope they never mess with this continuity.

In my opinion, Ennis's continuity is the only continuity. Thankfully Marvel realized that DC's Vertigo branch was actually working and adopted a similar idea with MAX. Switching The Punisher to MAX was what also made up for the deplorable creation of the Ultimate universe.

[ElCapitanAmerica]

Who cares?

There is nothing to fix here. Usually the "fixes" are worse than the problem.

Frank Castle is a Vietnam vet because it made a lot of sense for that character and he was created around that era. It is integral to his character now, but you could also say he was a Desert Storm era veteran, and soon a veteran of the current war. Out of all past conflicts though, Vietnam makes the most sense.

So, don't change it. There is no need to explain it away. Coming up with silly retcon ideas doesn't add anything to the character, if you like the Punisher, you probably don't care about this one bit of information.

This is what often separates Marvel from DC, in DC they would have used one of these convoluted "Crisis" events to further confuse the story, therefore creating multiple and headache inducing origin stories that are unnecessary.

Just ignore this and enjoy the comic, maybe in the future if the character is still relevant he can be "reinvented", but there is no need to do that now.

[Charles RB]

Why is the Punisher still a Vietnam Vet?


Because it's a crucial part of his backstory that doesn't quite work with the Gulf War - and also because Garth Ennis has no problems writing an increasingly older character (he even likes it).

[Charles RB]

This argument is gonna be even funnier in 15 years. Frank will be what, 80 by then? :)

That'll be INCREDIBLY AWESOME. :)

[Secret Identity]

I know a few vietnam vets that could still def whoop my ass. Don't underestimate old-man strength, some of those guys are tough as nails.

[XPac]

Who cares?

There is nothing to fix here. Usually the "fixes" are worse than the problem.

Frank Castle is a Vietnam vet because it made a lot of sense for that character and he was created around that era. It is integral to his character now, but you could also say he was a Desert Storm era veteran, and soon a veteran of the current war. Out of all past conflicts though, Vietnam makes the most sense.

So, don't change it. There is no need to explain it away. Coming up with silly retcon ideas doesn't add anything to the character, if you like the Punisher, you probably don't care about this one bit of information.

This is what often separates Marvel from DC, in DC they would have used one of these convoluted "Crisis" events to further confuse the story, therefore creating multiple and headache inducing origin stories that are unnecessary.

Just ignore this and enjoy the comic, maybe in the future if the character is still relevant he can be "reinvented", but there is no need to do that now.

Marvel doesn't just ignore things though... they have a sort of sliding timeline that quietly retcons things.

Tony was now injured in the Gulf War rather than Vietman, and Sharon is now Peggy Carters niece rather than sister.

I imagine down the line Punisher will end up being a Gulf War vet... and a decade from now it'll probably be Afganistan or something else.

[Alan2099]

Can't we just say the Vietnam Cap was another attempt by the Government to replace Captain America? I mean, if we reaallllyyyy need the explination.

Come on this is the stuff No-Prizes were created for.

[mgs]

I know a few vietnam vets that could still def whoop my ass. Don't underestimate old-man strength, some of those guys are tough as nails.

hell, a couple of years ago, in NYC, some old Russian soldier from WW2, who was working as a taxi driver stopped some young criminal from robbing him, by knocking away his gun (or knife, I forget) and getting him in such a hold until he was able to call the police to arrest him. He was supposedly some special ops trained guy and the young criminal said that he was so incredibly strong that he could just not get away from the guy.

[Tetsuo_man]

Remember when he said he went to heaven and told god were to shove it(Ennis response to why he was no longer a spirit of vengeance in the maxi series in MK) God sent him back to earth and continued to fight his war as "punishment". and during that run Punisher was shot up sooo bad even he wondered why he isn't dead. I think God is keeping him in his prime and him alive as his punishment so that he will never know peace

I always thought this to be the case and hope this is how marvel handles it if they ever bring up his age. I don't think the punisher would be as interesting character if he wasn't really old yet kicks ass and was in vietnam. or the whole nick fury idea could also work.

[Shellhead]

It would be cool if Marvel someday revealed that Franklin Richards is subconsciously adjusting timeflow in the Marvel Universe to keep so many characters young. He's powerful enough, and suspiciously young.

[mgs]

It would be cool if Marvel someday revealed that Franklin Richards is subconsciously adjusting timeflow in the Marvel Universe to keep so many characters young. He's powerful enough, and suspiciously young.

is he as powerful or more powerful than the Molecule Man was though?

[DeadXMan]

Franklin Richards is the Uber retcon device

[Ultrawolf]

The problem is that it now is written that Frank Castle met the Steve Rogers Captain America during the Vietnam War. Captain America spent the entire Vietnam war (as well as the entire Cold One as well) in a block of ice. Does not compute.

It wasn't the real captain america. I think it was that same issue where Castle makes a reference saying something like "now I understand he must be like Santa Claus or James Bond" with many people playing him. I think this was supposed to allude (as well as how out of character 'cap' was in that flashback and how castle said that 'cap' beat the crap out of someone else, handed out some American flag pins and moved onto the next camp) that it wasn't THE captain america and just some guy the government paid to motivate the troops. Maybe it -was- Commie Smasher Cap. No idea, it definitely wasn't Rogers though I thought that was pretty clear when I read that comic.

[mikekerr3]

Marvel could just kill him and bring him back younger. They do that kind of thing all the time.


I know he didn't make a deal with a Devil, he would have shot Mephisto in the face.

[mikekerr3]

is he as powerful or more powerful than the Molecule Man was though?

Yes, edits reality like the beyonder. Haven't shown any real limits to his power.

[FearEmbodied]

MAX Punisher is very clearly old as dirt. But 616's Frank can still look young due to the main Marvel Universe's floating timelne, which is the same reason people like Reed Richards don't look old as dirt.

[JET ACE LOGAN]

Frank is 57 years old, not too old i think, to fight the good fight, but it's close, i think soon marvel will sort of drop his involvement in Nam, and quietly update it too an other war...................

[JET ACE LOGAN]

Frank is 57 years old, not too old i think, to fight the good fight, but it's close, i think soon marvel will sort of drop his involvement in Nam, and quietly update it too an other war...................

[JET ACE LOGAN]

just as long war journal does reage him like fury

[Hack4freeCBs]

Remember when he said he went to heaven and told god were to shove it(Ennis response to why he was no longer a spirit of vengeance in the maxi series in MK) God sent him back to earth and continued to fight his war as "punishment". and during that run Punisher was shot up sooo bad even he wondered why he isn't dead. I think God is keeping him in his prime and him alive as his punishment so that he will never know peace

He probably was taken at a ceratin age so he never ages past that. So even though to humans hes like 60 he has the looks and strength of when he came back from Nam. thats just my theory

[Charles RB]

They can't really update him to being a Gulf War vet - the Gulf War was a totally different conflict, with equally different psychological and cultural impact & connotations.

That said, a few more years and they can say he was an Iraq veteran, that'd be a better substitute (if you wanted to go down the "OH NO NOT OLD PEOPLE!" route).

[StoneGold]

They can't really update him to being a Gulf War vet - the Gulf War was a totally different conflict, with equally different psychological and cultural impact & connotations.


What could work is if they just update him into a nebulous special ops category. That's what they did for the movie, until the scenes were cut and it was moved to the comic Ennis wrote that they put in the DVD.

[filthysize]

This is why, no offense to Fraction, I tend to ignore any other depiction of Frank other than Ennis', because they can be pretty inconsistent. Ennis writes Punisher MAX in "real time", so there's really no grey area there.

Not sure what his birthday is, but Frank's birthyear is 1950 according to Ennis, so yeah, he's 57 or 58. That's the way he's drawn in MAX, and that's the way he's written.

And also why, as much as I love the book and the character, I'd rather see it go after Ennis' last arc than see it continue for ten more years. Then it would have to revert to the Marvel U Punisher with the sliding timeline or age formulas, and that's just wrong for that book.

[JET ACE LOGAN]

And also why, as much as I love the book and the character, I'd rather see it go after Ennis' last arc than see it continue for ten more years. Then it would have to revert to the Marvel U Punisher with the sliding timeline or age formulas, and that's just wrong for that book.

Yea see i kind of agree with this, Punisher Max has for me (being a life long fan) the absolute high point of punisher writting, and with Ennis leaving, and like you say what could happen later to the book, its maybe better that it goes out on a high.................