Is there any way Secret Invasion could be good?

[Kid Kyoto]

If the rumors are true and several characters are about to have 30+ years of backstory and character development discarded, is there any way this can be good?

If rumors are true that writers are being told they must have a skrull in every book is there any way this won't be a mess?

DC did this years and years ago with their millennium cross over and it made no sense and was soon forgetten.

If Secret Invasion is going to involve more than a small handful of skrulls who were planted and seeded well in advance, how can this possibly work?

[DaeJi]

I really doubt that they are going to allow 30+ years of a character's history to be wiped out with this event. Maybe a few years, nothing more. Rumors are just that, rumors.

[Christopher O]

I really doubt that they are going to allow 30+ years of a character's history to be wiped out with this event. Maybe a few years, nothing more. Rumors are just that, rumors.
I wouldn't be so sure.

[DaeJi]

I wouldn't be so sure.

I'm Iffy on the whole idea. One hand, it could really, really, really, really, really, REALLY badly backfire. On the other... yeah, it would just backfire. Of course damage could be minimal be using D-list characters, but that's still a huge risks. More likely we'll have Skrulls who think they are the real deal from 30 years ago (real time). As Spider-Man taught us with the Clone Saga going back and saying that all the stories before this one was done with a knock off and not the real thing is a bad idea.

[PatchMadripoor]

I would like to think that any other time in Marvel history (preferably before the cosmic lockdown whatver event) that it would have been good, or immediately after Annihilation 1. now it just feels like an opportunity to clean up major ret-cons, unless something very significant happens.

[psm]

If the rumors are true and several characters are about to have 30+ years of backstory and character development discarded, is there any way this can be good?

It really depends on the reader. Good/bad is really a subjective opinion based on that person's taste. For some it will feel like Marvel kicked them in the crotch. Which is what I expect most reader on these message boards will feel. For others they'll enjoy the excitement that comes from changing the current status quo.

Not that either group is right or wrong. Although, each group will think that they are right. :)

Personally, I'm going to take a wait and see approach. I really don't planned in getting all worked up on something that hasn't happened yet.

[XPac]

I'm not convinced Secret Invasion will retcon that much to be honest... but on the assumption that it does, I would nonetheless say yes it's possible that it can still be a good story.

Crisis of Infinate Earths was a good story. It caused a lot of damage writing wise that they're still trying to fix to this day, but the story itself was still good (in my opinion of course).

Retcons are potentially very damaging, especially if they go back to far. But we'll have to wait and see how it plays off. Jessica Jones was a retcon, but I thought it was a great story and didn't really damage anything. Sentry is another massive retcon... some like it and some don't, but either way I don't think he really causes that much continuity damage.

But there are plenty of retcons that do. So it depends.

[brundlefly]

If the rumors are true and several characters are about to have 30+ years of backstory and character development discarded, is there any way this can be good?

No. Note the massive negative reader response when this exact same concept was tried during the Spider-Man Clone Saga (i.e "the Spider-Man who's adventures you've read for decades is not the real Spider-Man") and subsequent backpedaling. It'll be pretty much the same here. "No, wait, he/she wasn't really replaced by a Skrull for 30 years, it was just a trick by his/her archenemy" and so forth for whichever "replaced" characters elicit the biggest reader backlash.


If rumors are true that writers are being told they must have a skrull in every book is there any way this won't be a mess?

No. And it will most likely derail (or at least temporarily disrupt) other books that are telling far superior stories, too, instead of just leaving well enough alone.


DC did this years and years ago with their millennium cross over and it made no sense and was soon forgetten.

Marvel should have learned from their competitors' mistakes on that one instead of repeating them here, imo.


If Secret Invasion is going to involve more than a small handful of skrulls who were planted and seeded well in advance, how can this possibly work?

It won't. It'll likely be a huge cluster, all masterminded by a writer who has so far displayed a grasp of Marvel history and characters that is....tenuous, at best. SI would work much better as a New/Mighty Avengers storyline, as opposed to clumsily trying to incorporate all of the MU, but I guess that's not a big enough "event" for certain spotlight-cravers to be satisfied with. :rolleyes:

[Carl Creel]

Quesada and Bendis could care less about continuity. As long as THEY think its a good story anything can and probably will happen. Im glad im not buying any of the issues.

[theardri]

I really doubt that they are going to allow 30+ years of a character's history to be wiped out with this event. Maybe a few years, nothing more. Rumors are just that, rumors.



"yeah marvel would never screw with characters like that. I mean next Spider man will give MJ up for Aunt May in a deal with the Devil, and they will kill Captian America and let the punisher walk around in his uniform ...."

/sarc

[StoneGold]

Oh, message board pessimism, you're so adorable!!!

[StoneGold]

and let the punisher walk around in his uniform ...."

/sarc

Oh, making up things that never actually happened based on erroneous message board reports, you're so adorable!!!


And just to back that up, you tell me, does this look anything like Cap's costume?

http://www.brokenfrontier.com/img/2007/apr/PunisherWarJournal-copy.jpg

[Brian M.]

Oh, message board pessimism, you're so adorable!!!

You sir must have never had your child hood raped by comic retcons. I fear you never feel the pay I have experienced. My eyes are cold and dark b/c of what I've seen.

[Shellhead]

It really depends on who the Skrulls were. If it turns out that Willie Lumpkin was a Skrull, that would certainly explain his ability to wiggle his ears, but would be laughably trivial. If Betty Brant was always a Skrull, that could be cool, though there would be some explaining to do about some old thought balloons. If Doctor Strange got replaced by a Skrull more than a few years ago, that's a problem, because that would invalidate the excellent Oath mini from last year, and the reasonably good Infinity Abyss and Marvel: The End stories that we got from Jim Starlin a few years ago.

[Tetsuo_man]

You sir must have never had your child hood raped by comic retcons. I fear you never feel the pay I have experienced. My eyes are cold and dark b/c of what I've seen.

You get paid for your pain? Sign me up then!:p

[CyberHubbs]

If the rumor is true about how it all ends, I think I'm willing to put up with several characters being long-time Skrulls.

[StoneGold]

You sir must have never had your child hood raped by comic retcons. I fear you never feel the pay I have experienced. My eyes are cold and dark b/c of what I've seen.

You know you were asking for it, wearing that short skirt and all.

[Brian M.]

You get paid for your pain? Sign me up then!:p

It's a bad habit of mine.

But yes I get paid for pain. I'm the capitalist version of Penance.

[Brian M.]

You know you were asking for it, wearing that short skirt and all.

They only do it becuase they love me...

[The Man Without Fear]

Wow. Maybe it's because I don't really follow these huge events, but I honestly didn't know Marvel was (rumored to be?) going this far with Secret Invasion. If this is the case, though, then I can't see anything but a lot of negativity spinning out of it. Even if it's only minor characters that are affected, everyone's a fan of someone, so somebody's bound to be upset.

I suppose you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs, but this seems like a huge risk. If it plays out like it sounds like it may, anyway.

[theardri]

Wow. Maybe it's because I don't really follow these huge events, but I honestly didn't know Marvel was (rumored to be?) going this far with Secret Invasion. If this is the case, though, then I can't see anything but a lot of negativity spinning out of it. Even if it's only minor characters that are affected, everyone's a fan of someone, so somebody's bound to be upset.

I suppose you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs, but this seems like a huge risk. If it plays out like it sounds like it may, anyway.

I just don't like the egg shells in mine ;)

Oh and Perhaps we will finally learn Howard the Duck is really a Skrull?

[Inhumanoid]

If the rumors are true and several characters are about to have 30+ years of backstory and character development discarded, is there any way this can be good?

If rumors are true that writers are being told they must have a skrull in every book is there any way this won't be a mess?

DC did this years and years ago with their millennium cross over and it made no sense and was soon forgetten.

If Secret Invasion is going to involve more than a small handful of skrulls who were planted and seeded well in advance, how can this possibly work?

Sure. I've been very negative on this subject but I suppose Bendis could pull this one out. I liked Dissassembled well enough (although I hadn't been poisoned by his Bendis speak at that point).

[StoneGold]

Just for the record, I remember Millennium. Of course, what I remember most about it is the BS wacky cosmic ending Englehart tried to give it.

[Brother Zag]

BTW, Bendis says the Secret Invasion has been going on since the start of "New Avengers". Don't think that title's been around for 30 years...

[Will.S]

I think Secret Invasion will be good.

Bendis will probably toss in a few wild card elements to make some interesting revelations and some that will definitely shock and apall some people regardless of who it is but Bendis has put a great deal of work into this whole event.

That and from what I've heard in his podcasts, he's learned from House of M regarding the content. He said that when you make an event like this it has to be one "whopper of a story". He noticed that an event like Infinite Crisis had a lot of stuff packed into the story so that was a mistake he wanted to rectify with Secret Invasion. The first issue seems like it'll be packed with many pages so hopefully he'll keep packing it in with the subsequent issues.

[Charles RB]

If the rumors are true and several characters are about to have 30+ years of backstory and character development discarded, is there any way this can be good?

Seeing as it's a "we have been infiltrated WHO CAN YOU TRUST?" paranoia story, which means some characters have to be infiltrators... er, yes. Whether it's good or not depends on the characters used, when they were replaced and how the paranoia is used.

They're unlikely to have been Skrulls from 30 years ago though - that'd be too hard to sell ("why didn't he help during the LAST Skrull invasion? Why weren't they going Bwahahaha I Am A Skrull in their word balloons?"). It'll be from a few years back, tops.

(It's a pity they can't say "Magneto WAS Xorn, the current Magneto and the other Xorn were Skrulls covering this up!")

SI would work much better as a New/Mighty Avengers storyline, as opposed to clumsily trying to incorporate all of the MU, but I guess that's not a big enough "event" for certain spotlight-cravers to be satisfied with. :rolleyes:

It was going to be an Avengers storyline - editorial wanted it to be line-wide. Bendis has stated this before and Marvel's higher-ups didn't say otherwise.

[Netley]

Oh, message board pessimism, you're so adorable!!!

The only thing more adorable than message board pessimism is message board pessimism being patronized :)

Anyway, I know we're all pretty touchy on the whole OMD thing, which makes us skeptical of the Skrull reveals, but I think Bendis can actually pull this whole thing off well. His pattern seems to be "ha I did this crazy thing that makes it seem like I have no respect for comics history (ex: killing Hawkeye)." Then, once the story progresses further, it seems to be "ok I actually have a lot of respect for comics history, and am just shuffling the deck complexly (ex: Hawkeye's back, hooking up with girls, and revealed to have Captain America as his inner-voice self)." (If that makes any sense.)

I don't think the Skrull replacements will go back too far before Secret War, really. The idea SI was concocted over the two-and-a-half years that that project was being painted, and according to Bendis interviews and whatnot, Secret Invasion started with NA #1.

I know the Illuminati mini, specifically issue 1, makes it seem like characters were perhaps replaced immediately after the Kree/Skrull War, but I think their entrapment during that issue had more to do with Skrulls learning how to duplicate powers, rather than actually replacing any of them at that time.

We also know, thanks to the latest issue of NA, that Skrulls are still currently trying to replace heroes, so that means that not every Skrull reveal will necessarily negate what's gone on for decades. I guess I'm saying most reveals will be characters who have been Skrulls for only a couple years (five or six at the most).

Besides, we don't know what happens to the Skrull-swapped heroes after the swap...i smell an awesome rescue adventure here, where some really cool people could come "back"!

[Secret Identity]

My problem with OMD wasn't the retconning it was that I couldn't (still can't) understand how the universe operates in conjunction with it, with secret invasion (i presume) they aren't going to wipe out chunks of history or make people forget who was behind the mask of spider-man when they saw him get unmasked on television, if they want to go so far back with SI that the frozen solider they pulled out of the water was in fact a skrull, go for it, as long as the story is good and it is "comic-logical". I'm a simple man with simple needs, all i need is a crisis that if it happened in the real world would give me nightmares for the rest of my life, and I need heroes to save the day. Everything else is gravy.

[Clea]

If the rumors are true and several characters are about to have 30+ years of backstory and character development discarded, is there any way this can be good?

If rumors are true that writers are being told they must have a skrull in every book is there any way this won't be a mess?

DC did this years and years ago with their millennium cross over and it made no sense and was soon forgetten.

If Secret Invasion is going to involve more than a small handful of skrulls who were planted and seeded well in advance, how can this possibly work?

There are a zillion ways in which SI could turn out to be terrific storytelling, massively entertaining, and possibly even leave a lasting mark on the MU. Or, you know, it could all be smoke and mirrors and be forgotten by next summer. Give it a chance. Don't write it off as a failure before it's even started.

[Kid Kyoto]

There are a zillion ways in which SI could turn out to be terrific storytelling, massively entertaining, and possibly even leave a lasting mark on the MU. Or, you know, it could all be smoke and mirrors and be forgotten by next summer. Give it a chance. Don't write it off as a failure before it's even started.

Ah it's never a bad idea to use past experience to guide future purchases.

And I did phrase it as a question :p

[StoneGold]

Ah it's never a bad idea to use past experience to guide future purchases.

And I did phrase it as a question :p

Yes, but it was a rather negatively phrased question, in the same vein as "So have you stopped beating your wife?"

[DeadXMan]

You sir must have never had your child hood raped by comic retcons. I fear you never feel the pay I have experienced. My eyes are cold and dark b/c of what I've seen.

nope, My childhood consisted of bike riding are my hometown with my friends , Going to ballgames with my father, watching scary movies with my sister, Making Rhubarb Pie with my grandmother. riding with my grandparents to dairy queen in their classic Studebaker, hitting home runs in little league, playing fetch with my dog, going behind the scenes in a horse track and seeing how it operates.

Comic books really didn't have an influence over my childhood.

[Jake V]

To answer the main question posed: Yes, there are several ways it could be good.

[rZi]

If they alter years of character development by saying "he was a skrull this whole time!" i will be more than a little annoyed, and this was always my biggest fear for SI.

[DaeJi]

If they alter years of character development by saying "he was a skrull this whole time!" i will be more than a little annoyed, and this was always my biggest fear for SI.

I think it depends on the character. Tigra could probably survive that blow. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmaybe Luke Cage (maybe). Beast could survive a few years lost. Ms. Marvel no. Ironman no. Maria Hill no (or she should be a rebel Skrull). Thunderbolt Genis-Vell could be a Skrull. Then we could get back the proper Genis-Vell (still nuts I hope).

[tfresca]

DC did something similar a few years back with Manhunters infiltrating the DC universe as sleeper agents then activating before an invasion. In the mini nobody important was revealed as a Manhunter but at least one character central to each book was revealed to be Manhunter. I'm curious to read how Marvel handles this.

[StoneGold]

DC did something similar a few years back with Manhunters infiltrating the DC universe as sleeper agents then activating before an invasion. In the mini nobody important was revealed as a Manhunter but at least one character central to each book was revealed to be Manhunter. I'm curious to read how Marvel handles this.

Millennium has been brought up a few times. Thing is, Millennium's failings were two-fold. One, none of the Manhunters were interesting, and the ones that were, they were just humans working for the Manhunters, like Lana Lane. Two, the whole thing went off the rails and became more about Englehart introducing new characters that everyone hated, instead of traitors in their midst. But it's all just Bodysnatchers and Monsters on Maple St.

[Brian M.]

What's kinda funny is that Ultimates 2nd arc is a lot like this.

[StoneGold]

What's kinda funny is that Ultimates 2nd arc is a lot like this.

Traitor in our midst is not a new story. It's a very, very old one.

[Kid Kyoto]

Millennium has been brought up a few times. Thing is, Millennium's failings were two-fold. One, none of the Manhunters were interesting, and the ones that were, they were just humans working for the Manhunters, like Lana Lane. Two, the whole thing went off the rails and became more about Englehart introducing new characters that everyone hated, instead of traitors in their midst. But it's all just Bodysnatchers and Monsters on Maple St.

I would say the Manhunters were also a huge failure.

For example in Booster Gold his manager, who has a daughter, suddenly became a cackling evil robot. An obvious case of taking a random supporting character and sacrificing him to the crossover gods.

In Superman it was Lana Lang, in Batman is was commissioner Gordon, both turned out to be simple brainwashing cases, soon forgotten.

Another case of substitution was the 5 year gap Legion, where DC tried to get the silver age legion back by saying the current crop was clones. or the kids were clones. They couldn't decide. Finally they killed them all off and restarted the timeline.

And of course there's the Spider Clone story.

My point being, inserting random 'traitors' into EVERY ONGOING TITLE in a shared universe really can't work well. They either make no sense (since the character was never meant to be a traitor) or are meangless and forgotten.

'Restoring' a character by dismissing years of stories as an impostor/clone/skrull rarely works since it leaves fans of the current version outraged and fans of the old version are rarely satisfied either.

So 'Secret Invasion' a major crossover that combines these two famously bad story ideas is not looking too good.

[Brett P]

Well the Invasion has been going on slowly over time...so yeah, maybe a couple of characters will be greatly affected by having been a Skrull for decades, but others might only have been replaced for a couple of years...

I'm greatly looking forward to it, far more than Civil War, WWH or Messiah Complex. It's gonna be real good comic book stuff.

Besides, if it makes for a good story now, I'm not really too bothered about how it affects the past. When all is said and done it doesn't really matter...

[StoneGold]

I would say the Manhunters were also a huge failure.

For example in Booster Gold his manager, who has a daughter, suddenly became a cackling evil robot. An obvious case of taking a random supporting character and sacrificing him to the crossover gods.

In Superman it was Lana Lang, in Batman is was commissioner Gordon, both turned out to be simple brainwashing cases, soon forgotten.

Another case of substitution was the 5 year gap Legion, where DC tried to get the silver age legion back by saying the current crop was clones. or the kids were clones. They couldn't decide. Finally they killed them all off and restarted the timeline.

And of course there's the Spider Clone story.

My point being, inserting random 'traitors' into EVERY ONGOING TITLE in a shared universe really can't work well. They either make no sense (since the character was never meant to be a traitor) or are meangless and forgotten.

'Restoring' a character by dismissing years of stories as an impostor/clone/skrull rarely works since it leaves fans of the current version outraged and fans of the old version are rarely satisfied either.

So 'Secret Invasion' a major crossover that combines these two famously bad story ideas is not looking too good.

Except I can name good versions of both those types of stories. Ultimates II and the Reign of the Supermen come to mind.

[Kid Kyoto]

Except I can name good versions of both those types of stories. Ultimates II and the Reign of the Supermen come to mind.

Not the same at all. In both cases there was one writer (or stable of writers) and the traitor was planned from the start.

Yeah it would be fine if this was Avengers only and we find it's Jervis and Powerman (or whoever) then it's done.

In this case every writer at Marvel is being told to have a traitor, whether or not they want one, whether or not one will make sense.

[Will.S]

My point being, inserting random 'traitors' into EVERY ONGOING TITLE in a shared universe really can't work well. They either make no sense (since the character was never meant to be a traitor) or are meangless and forgotten.
I can't see them going this route because that would be both repetitive and redundant by the time the first few issues of SI come out. As far as having traitors in ongoing titles are concerned, most of the tie ins to the major books are separate mini series so it's not affecting the main stories of those books. There no doubt that there will be skrull reveals aplenty but I think they're going to take a different approach than usual.

'Restoring' a character by dismissing years of stories as an impostor/clone/skrull rarely works since it leaves fans of the current version outraged and fans of the old version are rarely satisfied either.

So 'Secret Invasion' a major crossover that combines these two famously bad story ideas is not looking too good.
But they're just taking the concepts of these stories, not the same actual content which is why this isn't an automatic negative + negative = negative. Jury's out on how they are going to go about it though so there might be some "WTF" skrull reveals and similar character restorations.

[IronStarks]

i for one am really looking forward to Secret Invasion, and am hopeing it will unite the Marvel Universe again.

[StoneGold]

Not the same at all. In both cases there was one writer (or stable of writers) and the traitor was planned from the start.


Yeah, it's not the same, but it's not exactly the same as the other things, either. That would be holding to separate set of standards. Double, if you will.

[Charles RB]

My point being, inserting random 'traitors' into EVERY ONGOING TITLE in a shared universe really can't work well.

They don't have to. They just have to make the readers and characters think there could be Skrull agents in every title & have no idea how many Skrulls there are - they don't actually need Skrulls in every title, just enough to keep everyone off-guard and paranoid about how many there are.

[Rock It Raccoon]

just wanna throw in my two cents before the whole deal goes down. the big question is how exactly the skrulls are operating. NA: #39 showed that SPOILER: impostor daredevil didn't have reliable information, which means that there are gaps in the skrulls intelligence. if they were just going around replacing people for the last 30+ years (btw, where did you hear this?) they'd probably have better info. there's gotta be a logic to who they can and can't replace... why black bolt and not anyone on the new avengers? also, ms. marvel tells us that we can't really be sure where the replaced people go, since ms. marvel and her skrull counterpart are in the same city together.

what i think, personally, is that there's a few floating skrull agents, gathering intelligence and impersonating people who are most convenient. why would a skrull stay in the same shape for 30 years? why not take full advantage of their shape shifting... plus the whole multiple powers thing...

i dunno. just talkin off the top of my head.