Mighty Avengers #11 *Spoilers*

[mattbib]

God, I LOVE Djurdjevic's art SO much! :)

In the past, Doom visits Morgan Le Fay and asks her to show him how to build an army of "devil's creatures."He claims that it's for protection, and that he'd never hurt her. She asks what he'd give her in return. He asks what she wants...

In the present, at Castle Doom, Doom reappears with an army of five-eyed, humanoid moonsters that look like melted tar. Ms. Marvel assembles the Mighty Avengers and Ares takes lead of the battle. But the team's abilities have little effect, and they're completely engulfed by the creatures as they "melt" over them.

The team wakes up, held captive and suspended in energy fields within oen of Doom's hidden lairs. Spider-Woman jokingly explains that last time she woke up this way she and the New Avengers were naked and it scarred her for life. They realize their powers aren't working, and Ares is still unconcious. They wonder where Iron Man and the Sentry are.

Ms. Marvel tries to get Doom's attention; he activates another timeslip (4 minutes and counting...) and tries to awaken Ares. Then he threatens to kill Ms. Marvel, saying no one would care. Doom's thoughts confirm that the symbiote attack was due to a malfunction, brought on by the Ultron A.I. attack, and that he left Iron Man and Sentry during their time travel using a spell, giving himself about a half-hour head start. He says none of the Avengers would be missed, except for Ares, and he's not about to fight a battle with the gods. Doom demands that Ares summon Zeus so that he can turn Ares over to him directly, but he refuses.

Wasp asks what he did with Iron Man, but he tels her to be quiet...that her voice is annoying (LOL). He's obviously stalling (for the timeslip...2 minutes 4 seconds and counting...). But Spider-Woman thinks she can...do something. She begins to power up somehow...and breaks all the Avengers out of their energy prison! And Ares attacks. Timeslip completion in 22 seconds and counting...

Simon joins in on the pounding on Doom. Widow tries to get the helicarrier back online. Ms. Marvel flies off to find Iron Man and Sentry. Timeslip complete. Sentry and Iron Man reappear at the remains of Castle Doom, but Ms. Marvel tells them to get out. And what's left of the castle explodes, causing Stark's armor to fail.

Doom and his robots continue to battle the other Avengers. Sentry catches Iron Man. Carol tries to absorb some of the energy from his armor. But his armor reboots. Sentry recharges his armor with the powers of a thousand exploding suns. And Iron Man is pissed.

Spider-Woman tries to get Wasp to leave the battle, telling her it's out of her power range. Jans shuts her up, telling her she's been on the team since day one (worry about you...LOL). Doom starts to use some spell, then the Sentry grabs him by the face, and places him under arrest and rips off his mask!!! Jan's impressed.

Later, back on the SHIELD helicarrier, news reports confirm Doom's arrest for terrorist crimes against humanity, and that he's being held in an undisclosed location. Maria Hill's interested in what he looked like without his mask. Starks' pissed about Doom tricking him...using magic to get back earlier...and that he'll have to completely reasses his technolgy. Hill tells him to be glad he had Jessica Drew on their team.

Back at Avengers Tower, Natasha joins Jessica in the hot tub and reminds her to see the doctor to make sure there were no side effects from the earlier symbiote transformation. Jessica blows her off. Natasha asks how she broke them free with her powers. Jessica explains that her powers eact differently to different types of attacks and that they won and that she should just enjoy the moment.

In the past, Morgan Le Fay wakes up alone in her bedroom, candles still burning, and she looks around for Doom.

Next issue: SKRULL INVASION!!

Good stuff. Not sure I liked Bagley's art on this book, but oh well. Soem of the humorous parts, while definitely funny, felt out of place. And some conflicting dialogue, both causing and assuaging suspicions. Clearly we're meant to believe Jessica is a Skrull. But what lies in store with Morgan Le Fay? Who knows.

[protogarrett]

Spider Woman is a skrull.

[mattbib]

Do not...let me repeat...DO NOT post spoilers from other books or previews in this thread.

[CMBMOOL]

Spider Woman is a skrull.

Yeah right, I don't believe that. :p

[bjtrdff]

Well (and I won't go by name specifically) I'd bet that we now know the skrulls on each avengers team.

[Jackob]

Spider Woman is a skrull.

i dont know...
i think it might be the widow and she is upset because her intel is wrong about spiderwoman. and they are just tricking people into thinking that it is spiderwoman.




or it might be just that spiderwoman is a skrull

also sentry was awsome when got doom.

[ShaggyB]

technically thats not really a spoiler, we are all thinking it anyway.

Good review and spoilers, looking forward to the trip to the store today.

[drwho]

This issue was absolutely dreadful. The dialogue sucked through out the whole issue. Even the art was lacking some. The thought bubbles went to cr@p again. Bad issue whoah is this bad. Read to me like Bendis was writing with the mind of a 6 yr old. Avengers came off so juvenile and dumb witted even the wannabe erotic scenes between BW and SW didnt make this work for me. WTF happened in 3 issues to turn the series into this? Went from best issue to worst issue in a months time span. I couldnt even sit and read it all the way through. Maybe they are bringing back the supernatural origins back to spider woman and that is how she broke the energy, or something? Also in her original origin Morgan Lefey wanted Jessicas powers, or something.

[ShaggyB]

i dont know...
i think it might be the widow and she is upset because her intel is wrong about spiderwoman. and they are just tricking people into thinking that it is spiderwoman.




or it might be just that spiderwoman is a skrull

also sentry was awsome when got doom.

i think a lot of shield is skrulls now. But thats just my guess. The prologue reveal reaffirmed my beliefs.

[bjtrdff]

SW would fit quite well, especially if we get a reveal along the lines of 'she's been with Nick Fury for a little while now' sort of thing.

[Samuraixsithlord]

So the skrulls took control of Doom's satilite launched the symbiote virus so the Avengers could take out Doom for them. At least thats what i'm thinking

[Mark_S]

Darn. Doom lost.

Mark_S

[Dorsai]

The dialogue sucked through out the whole issue.


Well...not the WHOLE issue. The following line definitely got a laugh out of me:

"Shut your cow-mouth or I will remove your face by hand before I stop your whore's heart."

Now THAT is some villainous dialogue. Also, Doom insisting Ares summon his father so he could turn him over was hilarious.

[We R. Venom]

This issue was freakin great. Doom killed me yet again with his dialog and his silent inner thoughts just made me drop the book and LOL. The art was fantastic and the arc had a good end and set up for the future as well as SI. Good to know the Sentry is on Doom's list now too.

[worstblogever]

Well...not the WHOLE issue. The following line definitely got a laugh out of me:

"Shut your cow-mouth or I will remove your face by hand before I stop your whore's heart."

Now THAT is some villainous dialogue. Also, Doom insisting Ares summon his father so he could turn him over was hilarious.


Doom's dialogue wasn't so bad. It was his thoughts that turned me off inbetween. Since when do we get villain thought bubbles in this book, too?

[Don Quixote]

Back at Avengers Tower, Natasha joins Jessica in the hot tub

Ok, I stopped reading there. :D

So it sounds like we're finally getting past what has felt like filler material for the past few issues. Good stuff.

[Alphaxman]

I really don’t like how Bendis writes Ares. He comes off like such an idiot. And the Black Widow from Mighty Avengers and the one in Captain America are two completely different people.

Oh and I hate how they would say one thing and then repeat it in their head. I can see saying one thing and thinking another but not thinking it after saying it out loud. But Doom was great.

6.5 out of 10

[XPac]

I'm kinda bummed that Doom lost. And as much as Doom deserves to be arrested, I can't help but feel like this likely did the Skrulls a favor more than anyone else. Ah well.

As far as Skrulls go... I'm more suspicous of Black Widow than Spider Woman personally.

[Dorsai]

I'm kinda bummed that Doom lost. And as much as Doom deserves to be arrested, I can't help but feel like this likely did the Skrulls a favor more than anyone else. Ah well.

As far as Skrulls go... I'm more suspicous of Black Widow than Spider Woman personally.

While reading the book, I felt a little strange in that I was truly rooting for Doom to win. Not sure if that really means I'm lukewarm on the Mighty Avengers as a team or just my enjoyment of Doom as a character.

I would have been happy with a stalemate or an uneasy detente.

[Magneto Rocks]

Hey, I'm as pro-reg as it gets and I wanted Doom to win. But then, I always do. :D

He actually had a pretty damn good showing considering how totally on the back foot he was caught initially. Hell, he may even have won if not for the Sentry- and to be fair, it's difficult to beat the man with the power of a thousand exploding suns minus prep time. A bit sore that he lost, but glad he did so well. This will NOT end well for the Avengers- they DARE to arrest Doom, lord of a sovereign nation? He will beat their asses.

(And what on Earth happens to Latveria now???)

[CMBMOOL]

I'm kinda bummed that Doom lost. And as much as Doom deserves to be arrested, I can't help but feel like this likely did the Skrulls a favor more than anyone else. Ah well.

As far as Skrulls go... I'm more suspicous of Black Widow than Spider Woman personally.

Yeah It still kind of feels off that Doom was arrested by the Avengers and not the FF, like I always thought that it should have been done. :mad:

[XPac]

Hey, I'm as pro-reg as it gets and I wanted Doom to win. But then, I always do. :D

He actually had a pretty damn good showing considering how totally on the back foot he was caught initially. Hell, he may even have won if not for the Sentry- and to be fair, it's difficult to beat the man with the power of a thousand exploding suns minus prep time. A bit sore that he lost, but glad he did so well. This will NOT end well for the Avengers- they DARE to arrest Doom, lord of a sovereign nation? He will beat their asses.

(And what on Earth happens to Latveria now???)

Yeah, Doom held his own until Sentry showed up. Given that he was caught with his pants down, it's not that bad a showing. Though him sitting in a SHIELD jail cell along with the likes of Rhyno or Shocker really must be the low point in his entire career.

As for Latveria... I imagine the UN will try to set up some puppet government that Doom will overthrow once he's back in his regular status quo. That said, not that he's a wanted criminal with apparently no diplomatic immunity, in theory SHIELD can go after him whenever they want from now on.

[Mark_S]

I have the feeling that Latveria is in for some bad times. Given the level of competence we've seen in SHIELD I expect the most incompetant, corrupt group of people available will be put in charge and after a few months of them the people will be begging Doom to come back.

Mark_S

[Dr. Chaos]

As for Natasha/Jess, I'm actually with Xpac, I was more suspicious of The Black Widow in that scene than I was of Spider-Woman. It goes both ways (and I am very suspicious of Drew) but some could read into that as a skrull wondering how that lil detail evaded them. Like with Tony's nuke attack in Illuminati, they probably don't like surprises and there might be some things that they haven't been able to prepare for that they don't know about yet.

I'm very curious to see what Doom's possible appearance in Millar's FF will be like now.

Poor Morgana...she misses her sugar daddy.

Anybody want to take a guess as to what La Fey wanted from Doom?

[Magneto Rocks]

Yeah, Doom held his own until Sentry showed up. Given that he was caught with his pants down, it's not that bad a showing. Though him sitting in a SHIELD jail cell along with the likes of Rhyno or Shocker really must be the low point in his entire career.

Not really. The guy broke out of Hell, I doubt he thinks a jail cell will hold him for long. He'll be very, VERY pissed off at the indignity when he does bust out though, and then there'll be Hell to pay. I'd love to see Doom try to destroy SHIELD. It would be like Cho's plan except ten thousand times better and executed by someone ten thousand times smarter. Plus, with a far more legitimate beef with them.

As for Latveria... I imagine the UN will try to set up some puppet government that Doom will overthrow once he's back in his regular status quo. That said, not that he's a wanted criminal with apparently no diplomatic immunity, in theory SHIELD can go after him whenever they want from now on.

Except they just decided to revoke said immunity on a whim. That has consequences.

I have the feeling that Latveria is in for some bad times. Given the level of competence we've seen in SHIELD I expect the most incompetant, corrupt group of people available will be put in charge and after a few months of them the people will be begging Doom to come back.

That wouldn't really be a sign of SHIELD incompetence. In fact, the Latverians have a habit of begging Doom to come back, including when they briefly had an incredibly benevolt government which was on its way to solving all their problems.

[Red Lotus]

Hey, I'm as pro-reg as it gets and I wanted Doom to win. But then, I always do. :D

He actually had a pretty damn good showing considering how totally on the back foot he was caught initially. Hell, he may even have won if not for the Sentry- and to be fair, it's difficult to beat the man with the power of a thousand exploding suns minus prep time. A bit sore that he lost, but glad he did so well. This will NOT end well for the Avengers- they DARE to arrest Doom, lord of a sovereign nation? He will beat their asses.

(And what on Earth happens to Latveria now???)

After the end of the issue I kind feel that Morgan Le Fay is going to play a big part in that.

[Dr. Chaos]

Would Namor's agents be able to break him out? We are talking about a guy that had enough balls to just brazenly threaten major damage on US soil just recently (in The Order).

I didn't get around to reading much of his last mini but they seem to have struck some sort of alliance. Somehow I doubt Namor would give a **** if Doom "accidentally" released a bio weapon.

[XPac]

Would Namor's agents be able to break him out? We are talking about a guy that had enough balls to just brazenly threaten major damage on US soil just recently (in The Order).

I didn't get around to reading much of his last mini but they seem to have struck some sort of alliance. Somehow I doubt Namor would give a **** if Doom "accidentally" released a bio weapon.

We'll have to wait and see if Namor's agents can break out Namor, let alone Doom. As it stands, the Doom/Namor alliance is only a possibility if they're sharing a jail cell. That whole thing from the Namor series really came off anti-climatic after the book.

[Dr. Chaos]

And for those who keep insisting Doom lost:

Doom does not lose...he waits.

Keep that in mind.

[XPac]

Not really. The guy broke out of Hell, I doubt he thinks a jail cell will hold him for long. He'll be very, VERY pissed off at the indignity when he does bust out though, and then there'll be Hell to pay. I'd love to see Doom try to destroy SHIELD. It would be like Cho's plan except ten thousand times better and executed by someone ten thousand times smarter. Plus, with a far more legitimate beef with them.



Except they just decided to revoke said immunity on a whim. That has consequences.



That wouldn't really be a sign of SHIELD incompetence. In fact, the Latverians have a habit of begging Doom to come back, including when they briefly had an incredibly benevolt government which was on its way to solving all their problems.

Well, if Doom ends up in FF soon I guess we can assume that he's not going to stay in jail too long. Still, I'd consider it a low point in his career.

Still, the fact that he's now a wanted criminal is a potential status quo change, unless that's ignored down the line. Diplomatic Immunity was always his ace in the hole... I'm not sure if that applies now. As I said, this is easily ignored or over turned if someone down the line wants to return him to his previous status quo rather than turning him into your atypical criminal fugitive.

[Mark_S]

Well given the way that marvel works it is possible that the person writing that book has no idea what's happening in Avengers. It's also possible that it is a Doombot that they have in custody. Or it will be a Doombot in the FF.

And what should really happen after all this is that Doom should start planning his vengeance against the Sentry. The guy took his mask off, nothing will drive Doom to a higher level of fury and at the end with Iron Man standing there all huffy isn't going to stand well either. If marvel plans on writing Doom to form after this then he'll go after them. By taking Doom like this the MA have lit the fuse and it should blow up on them later.

As for Latveria, I actually expect SHIELD to set up a slave labor operation like they did in the Savage Land.

Mark_S

[Dr. Chaos]

As for Latveria, I actually expect SHIELD to set up a slave labor operation like they did in the Savage Land.
Makes sense.

It's their playground now and since Amadeus and Herc aren't working to stop them anymore, there really aren't alot of superheroes with enough balls to take on SHIELD these days so they're pretty much free to indulge in bad habits that screw people over while they do the job they're supposed to do on the side.

[Mr. Earl Brooks]

Well given the way that marvel works it is possible that the person writing that book has no idea what's happening in Avengers. It's also possible that it is a Doombot that they have in custody. Or it will be a Doombot in the FF.



It had thought bubbles.

[dabig2]

Damn the Mighty avengers all to hell! You don't Lethal Weapon 2 Dr. Doom.

After the skrull fiasco, I'll like to see the ramifications of such an event. Very interesting how another book's main villain gets taken out like this in another team's book. Especially when he literally had nothing to do with them.

[XPac]

Damn the Mighty avengers all to hell! You don't Lethal Weapon 2 Dr. Doom.

After the skrull fiasco, I'll like to see the ramifications of such an event. Very interesting how another book's main villain gets taken out like this in another team's book. Especially when he literally had nothing to do with them.

It might be just a convinent way to get Doom out of the way for Secret Invasion.

But yeah, it's kind of funny how Doom finally goes down over something that he's not really responsible for.

[Magneto Rocks]

They won't Doombot out on Millar, and they won't Doombot out on Bendis either. They're both too big to do that to.

[Dr. Chaos]

But yeah, it's kind of funny how Doom finally goes down over something that he's not really responsible for.
Are we supposed to assume the symbiote bomb was something Doom was saving for self defense in the case of an attack on Latveria?

I think he is kind of responsible for it, illegally attaching that kind of WMD to a satelite was a hazard waiting to happen.

He pretty much claimed responsbility the minute his people took it outside of Latveria.

[Shyft]

Are we supposed to assume the symbiote bomb was something Doom was saving for self defense in the case of an attack on Latveria?

I think he is kind of responsible for it, illegally attaching that kind of WMD to a satelite was a hazard waiting to happen.

He pretty much claimed responsbility the minute his people took it outside of Latveria.

Tony Stark had sattelites that could control the weather and did considerable damage when being controlled by Ultron. I wouldn't say either could really be blamed for what was done with them. Although obviously dubious (hell, its Doom) he didnt ACTUALLY do anything wrong.

[XPac]

Are we supposed to assume the symbiote bomb was something Doom was saving for self defense in the case of an attack on Latveria?

I think he is kind of responsible for it, illegally attaching that kind of WMD to a satelite was a hazard waiting to happen.

He pretty much claimed responsbility the minute his people took it outside of Latveria.

You can certainly argue Doom has some level of accountability since it was a hazard waiting to happen (that's one of the reasons why we should all be worried that Stark as put weather control machines and a Doomsday device in space... hazards waiting to happen).

That said, I wouldn't say Doom was responsible for what happened.

[Dr. Chaos]

Tony Stark had sattelites that could control the weather and did considerable damage when being controlled by Ultron. I wouldn't say either could really be blamed for what was done with them. Although obviously dubious (hell, its Doom) he didnt ACTUALLY do anything wrong.
Trust me, I wouldn't defend Stark on that, I'm the last person you'll find doing that.

I think he's someone that has alot to answer for aswell.

[Shade 20x6]

i dont know...
i think it might be the widow and she is upset because her intel is wrong about spiderwoman. and they are just tricking people into thinking that it is spiderwoman.




or it might be just that spiderwoman is a skrull

also sentry was awsome when got doom.

This is what I'm thinking as well.

My guess is that Widow is the Skrull.

[XPac]

Yeah. Either Black Widow is a skrull, or she's a very good red herring.

I can also easily imagine that she's secretly a spy for Nick Fury. That's what I thought from the start... though the skrull vibe has gotten stronger since then.

[Shyft]

Yeah. Either Black Widow is a skrull, or she's a very good red herring.

I can also easily imagine that she's secretly a spy for Nick Fury. That's what I thought from the start... though the skrull vibe has gotten stronger since then.

Bendis' recent interview heavily implies that Nick Fury has more or less cut all ties with the old heroes, and has some "new" faces he has been hanging out with. Im pretty sure even Spider Woman at some point has mentioned that she hasnt seen Fury in months. Obviously shes quite the liar, but still.

[XPac]

Bendis' recent interview heavily implies that Nick Fury has more or less cut all ties with the old heroes, and has some "new" faces he has been hanging out with. Im pretty sure even Spider Woman at some point has mentioned that she hasnt seen Fury in months. Obviously shes quite the liar, but still.

Out of curiosity, where can I check out the Bendis interview where he talks about it?

[Shyft]

Out of curiosity, where can I check out the Bendis interview where he talks about it?

it was part of the EW segment looking at the first 10 pages of SI #1.

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20186361,00.html

that should be the direct link to the interview.

[GRANT!]

It might be just a convinent way to get Doom out of the way for Secret Invasion.

I'm thinking he'll be involved. I could see Tony and Reed enlisting him at the last possible moment.

But yeah, it's kind of funny how Doom finally goes down over something that he's not really responsible for.

I dug the irony of that myself.

[Weapon Ick]

If Black Widow is a skrull then wouldn't that undermine the romantic aspect of Brubaker's story in Captain America right now?

[XPac]

If Black Widow is a skrull then wouldn't that undermine the romantic aspect of Brubaker's story in Captain America right now?

Quite possible... though I suppose you can save that by saying she was a late switch.

Black Widow seems to have stopped working with Bucky in the last issue, so maybe the switch occurs after that. Again, that's assuming she is a skrull.

[Trey]

Doom's dialogue wasn't so bad. It was his thoughts that turned me off inbetween. Since when do we get villain thought bubbles in this book, too?

You'll get villain thought bubbles and like it, damn it!

[Kirk G]

Well...not the WHOLE issue. The following line definitely got a laugh out of me:

"Shut your cow-mouth or I will remove your face by hand before I stop your whore's heart."

Now THAT is some villainous dialogue. Also, Doom insisting Ares summon his father so he could turn him over was hilarious.

I was thinking that that line was absolutely out of character for Dr. Doom.:eek:

[Kirk G]

If Black Widow is a skrull then wouldn't that undermine the romantic aspect of Brubaker's story in Captain America right now?

No, there are at least two black widows, like there are two Captain Marvels, two Daredevils, and two of other heroes when it is needed to have them do something out of character.

One Black Widow is running around with the Mighty Avengers, and the other is on a solo mission with the Winter Soldier for Sheild. As long as they don't both run into the same people or come into the same room, they'll function separately if they don't give themselves away.

I don't see that this invalidates Brubaker's storyline at all...

[Optic Power]

Sentry>Doom.

How bad ass was that, reached right through his magic defense and ripped his helmet off. Like Stark said when he and Carol formed the team, Sentry is a bullet. Just aim and shoot.

"You recognize my authority now?". I love Doom, but he just got pwned.

[ViciousX]

Anyone have a scan of those last two Doom pages?

[TotalWorldDomination]

Sentry>Doom.

How bad ass was that, reached right through his magic defense and ripped his helmet off. Like Stark said when he and Carol formed the team, Sentry is a bullet. Just aim and shoot.

"You recognize my authority now?". I love Doom, but he just got pwned.

To be fair to the good Doctor D, he did hold off the ENTIRE Mighty avengers for a while. I doubt any other supervillian in existence could actually do that. that's why he's doctor doom. Even in defeat, he's the man. :D

[SquidSquod]

Doom is not Thanos aka Darkseid. He's just a souped up Lex Luthor with Magic. People tend to forget this because of Doom-love.

[Pyro]

Wow. I actually enjoyed this issue quite a bit. More than last issue anyhow. I know some of you guys didn't like it but I thought it was pretty fun. I thought Bendis revealing what really happened through Doom's thought bubbles was an interesting idea that only just fell short of success. It's a little ridiculous for villains to reveal their plans, or in this case their failures, to their captive heroes, however, it went on too long and in too much detail. It was hard to believe he was thinking all of that in between the words he said and that he would think in such an expository fashion.

I thought it was hilarious when Doom said, "Shut your cow-mouth or I will remove your face by hand before I stop your whore's heart," and then Ms. Marvel said, "That actually hurt my feelings."

Bagley's art had a lot of action. The scene with Black Widow and Spider-Woman didn't come off as cheesecakey as I think it was intended to be and I was thankful for that.

[jackolover]

Of the 3 books I've read so far this week, this is by far the best. This ties in with Silent War and Atlantis' defeat, adding Doom and Latveria to the mix. They always said Civil War and the SHRA would reach out to an International level, and the defeat of Doom just puts the icing on the cake. Who has ever defeated Doom, and arrested him? No one that I recall. It's the single most poignant moment of the Initiative, to have rid the world of Dooms menace, (seeing he admitting in thought, that the symbiotes were a secret experiment that hadn't been tested yet).

But who defeated Doom? The surprise was Jessica Drew, having mystic power to foil the mystic army. Then along comes Sentry. He rescued Stark from that explosion, repowered Stark with the power of the sun, and tore off Dooms mask and punching him out cold. The best showing by Sentry, after that poor showing the previous issue. (Spoiler +++ puts to shame Sentrys pathetic showing against the Chrysler building in Damage Control #3).

My feeling? Morgan Le Fay wished of Doom that she could chanel into a super human in his time era, so Morgan channelled Drew, and defeated the Mystic army with Morgans spells, just because Doom never delivers on his promises to give her presents. And in the end sequence, when Morgan called Doom, and he didn't respond, she knew Doom was defeated and couldn't respond.

[Pyro]

I wonder what Doom's imprisonment means in regards to all those alliances he was making behind the scenes in recent appearances.

[XPac]

Sentry>Doom.

How bad ass was that, reached right through his magic defense and ripped his helmet off. Like Stark said when he and Carol formed the team, Sentry is a bullet. Just aim and shoot.

"You recognize my authority now?". I love Doom, but he just got pwned.

Course, if Doom can't handle Sentry then you have to wonder how the heck they're going to whip out any credible threats for this guy.

Doom held his own against every other Avenger, so it wasn't a bad showing. But Sentry was just too much.

[Lombardo!]

Sentry's pwnage of Doom was pretty badass.

but i hope he plays some sort of role in SI

[Mark_S]

Of the 3 books I've read so far this week, this is by far the best. This ties in with Silent War and Atlantis' defeat, adding Doom and Latveria to the mix. They always said Civil War and the SHRA would reach out to an International level, and the defeat of Doom just puts the icing on the cake. Who has ever defeated Doom, and arrested him? No one that I recall. It's the single most poignant moment of the Initiative, to have rid the world of Dooms menace, (seeing he admitting in thought, that the symbiotes were a secret experiment that hadn't been tested yet).

But who defeated Doom? The surprise was Jessica Drew, having mystic power to foil the mystic army. Then along comes Sentry. He rescued Stark from that explosion, repowered Stark with the power of the sun, and tore off Dooms mask and punching him out cold. The best showing by Sentry, after that poor showing the previous issue. (Spoiler +++ puts to shame Sentrys pathetic showing against the Chrysler building in Damage Control #3).

My feeling? Morgan Le Fay wished of Doom that she could chanel into a super human in his time era, so Morgan channelled Drew, and defeated the Mystic army with Morgans spells, just because Doom never delivers on his promises to give her presents. And in the end sequence, when Morgan called Doom, and he didn't respond, she knew Doom was defeated and couldn't respond.


Jessica suddenly pulling a new power out of the hat is not really a surprise. She's Bendis's favorite character, it's one of the perks of that station.

Mark_S

[SquidSquod]

Sentry should own Doom most of the time. The only time Sentry will meet his match is when he's going against Thanos.

"Superman"... meet "Darkseid".

[Iron_Stark]

"You recognize my authority now?"

HAHA, Doom got owned hard! I like Doom as much as the next guy, but you don't F*** with the Mighty Avengers.

That's why the MA owns, they take out big threats, Ultron, Doom, Venom symbiotes, that other half assed Avengers team can barely handle ninjas and C-list villains. Infact they shouldn't even call themselves Avengers.

Mighty Avengers are the real Avengers, Marvels most prestigious team.

[Magneto Rocks]

Course, if Doom can't handle Sentry then you have to wonder how the heck they're going to whip out any credible threats for this guy.

Doom held his own against every other Avenger, so it wasn't a bad showing. But Sentry was just too much.

Again, non prep time Doom. In fact, a Doom who had absolutely no idea about Sentry's past. Put it like this- given Doom's history, I very much doubt he'll be unprepared for Sentry next time.

Doom is not Thanos aka Darkseid. He's just a souped up Lex Luthor with Magic. People tend to forget this because of Doom-love.

Rubbish. Doom's a thousand times smarter than Lex is, more inventive than Lex is, more dubious than Lex is, and magic's a pretty colossal wildcard. T

Plus let's remember- when given time to prepare and scheme, Doom was able to take down the Silver Surfer, a Watcher, and oh yeah- GALACTUS at different points. I wouldn't write him off against Thanos if he knew the T-man was coming and had time to scheme.

[Shyft]

Again, non prep time Doom. In fact, a Doom who had absolutely no idea about Sentry's past. Put it like this- given Doom's history, I very much doubt he'll be unprepared for Sentry next time.



Rubbish. Doom's a thousand times smarter than Lex is, more inventive than Lex is, more dubious than Lex is, and magic's a pretty colossal wildcard. T

Plus let's remember- when given time to prepare and scheme, Doom was able to take down the Silver Surfer, a Watcher, and oh yeah- GALACTUS at different points. I wouldn't write him off against Thanos if he knew the T-man was coming and had time to scheme.

Im not sure if its Canon, but didnt Doom actually succeed in taking over the world once, but then gave it back because he got bored or something random like that?

[Magneto Rocks]

Im not sure if its Canon, but didnt Doom actually succeed in taking over the world once, but then gave it back because he got bored or something random like that?

Yup, courtesy of Purple Man's brainwashing, he did. Twas an excellent story too.

(Also, he resisted the Purple Man's power. Not with technology or anything- he even took off the mask- just by being Doom.)

[Iron_Stark]

Doom also got his ass handed to him by Squirrel Girl :D

[Magneto Rocks]

I shall maintain to my dying day that this was a Doombot. :p

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Doom also got his ass handed to him by Squirrel Girl :D

So did Thanos, among others.

Squirrel Girl ain't nothing to f**k with.

[Optic Power]

If the villians in the Marvel Universe still have no idea who Sentry is, they better start taking notes. He is not someone to mess with. Doom is lucky he isnt roasting on the sun right now.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

If the villians in the Marvel Universe still have no idea who Sentry is, they better start taking notes. He is not someone to mess with. Doom is lucky he isnt roasting on the sun right now.

And Sentry's lucky Doom didn't prep for him.

[Optic Power]

And Sentry's lucky Doom didn't prep for him.


I'll take Sentry with prep from Ironman 9 out of 10 times against Doom with prep.

[SquidSquod]

Rubbish. Doom's a thousand times smarter than Lex is, more inventive than Lex is, more dubious than Lex is, and magic's a pretty colossal wildcard. T

Plus let's remember- when given time to prepare and scheme, Doom was able to take down the Silver Surfer, a Watcher, and oh yeah- GALACTUS at different points. I wouldn't write him off against Thanos if he knew the T-man was coming and had time to scheme.

You and me are Marvellites. Not sure how DC readers would concur that Doom is thousand times smarter than Lex. Smarter yes, thousand times don't know.

3 out of 10 I give it to Thanos, even if Doom has prep. Thanos is _the_ ultimate Marvel threat just like DC has in copycat Darkseid, and his alien brain far outstrip what Doom, a human, has in his cranium.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

You and me are Marvellites. Not sure how DC readers would concur that Doom is thousand times smarter than Lex. Smarter yes, thousand times don't know.

3 out of 10 I give it to Thanos, even if Doom has prep. Thanos is _the_ ultimate Marvel threat just like DC has in copycat Darkseid, and his alien brain far outstrip what Doom, a human, has in his cranium.

I'm a primarily DC reader, and even I know that Doom is beyond Lex. Far beyond Lex.

And wait... Did you say that Darkseid is a copy of Thanos? Darkseid, as in the New God created by Jack Kirby, is a copycat of a character that the creator himself, Starlin, said was influenced directly from Darkseid?

[TotalWorldDomination]

Jessica suddenly pulling a new power out of the hat is not really a surprise. She's Bendis's favorite character, it's one of the perks of that station.

Mark_S

Woah, woah, woah! Wait just one second! When did Jess Drew overtake Luke Cage as Bendis' favorite character??? I mean he clearly likes her but not likes her likes her like he likes likes luke cage. If it was legal to marry a comic-book character in oragon, Bendis would walk down the isle with cage, not drew.

You and me are Marvellites. Not sure how DC readers would concur that Doom is thousand times smarter than Lex. Smarter yes, thousand times don't know.

3 out of 10 I give it to Thanos, even if Doom has prep. Thanos is _the_ ultimate Marvel threat just like DC has in copycat Darkseid, and his alien brain far outstrip what Doom, a human, has in his cranium.

I never bought the Thanos = Darkseid argument. I mean the resembelence and idelogoies are clear, but Thanos never realy grabbed me the way Darkseid did. I'd give Doom with lots of prep the edge over thanos, and I'd even say that he'd win 4 out of 10 times.

Still, I think this was totally legit win for the MA's. You know me, I'm a doom fan, but fighting a God, Iron Man and the Sentry... well, you're kinda screwed. It was impressive that he held them off for that long and almost won. The fact that this is the first clear loss for doom in a long time is saying something.

[Optic Power]

As for the skrull suspects, gotta be Black widow. Was her eyes always green?

If it turns out shes a skrull and the one in Captain America isnt, Tony must feel pretty stupid since he has interacted with both.

[SquidSquod]

I never bought the Thanos = Darkseid argument. I mean the resembelence and idelogoies are clear, but Thanos never realy grabbed me the way Darkseid did. I'd give Doom with lots of prep the edge over thanos, and I'd even say that he'd win 4 out of 10 times.


If it doesn't grab you back then, it will be when Thanos come back because it's Marvel loss never to make a credible cosmic threat. I bet they'll make it a big arc. This is a guy who takes Gods like Thor for lunch outright without plan. And Thanos is not above of plans. Even if Doom has lots of prep over Thanos, Thanos will surely smacks the plans one by one. Doom surely needs ally to beat Thanos.

And I'm really friggin serious there's no credible cosmic threat in Marvel. One of things that DC beat the snot out of Marvel, because of Marvel don't know how to maintain good cosmic villains. Ultron? Bring back Thanos in 2010!

[SeritoNiN]

Decent issue here, my favorite of the "3" invasion lead in books this week. I think Black Widow is the skrull, surprised by spider-woman's abilities.

Still say they're dragging for waaaay too long regarding this build up.

[Iron Maiden]

Not really. The guy broke out of Hell, I doubt he thinks a jail cell will hold him for long. He'll be very, VERY pissed off at the indignity when he does bust out though, and then there'll be Hell to pay. I'd love to see Doom try to destroy SHIELD. It would be like Cho's plan except ten thousand times better and executed by someone ten thousand times smarter. Plus, with a far more legitimate beef with them.
Except they just decided to revoke said immunity on a whim. That has consequences.

That wouldn't really be a sign of SHIELD incompetence. In fact, the Latverians have a habit of begging Doom to come back, including when they briefly had an incredibly benevolt government which was on its way to solving all their problems.


Some corrections here from a long time Doomophile:

The government to which you are probably referring to was back in John Byrne's FF run. In Wolfman's FF, The late Prince Rodolpho's brother Prince Zorba was placed on the throne with the help of the FF when Doom was driven to madness when the image of his face was reflected back at him a million times in the Solatron complex. He did seem like he would be a better ruler than Doom. But remember, he was after all from the same line as the old despotic Baron that was wanted the head of Victor's father.

When Doom regained his sanity, he forced the FF into restoring him to the throne in FF 246-247. True to his lineage, Zorba had become paranoid and ruthless just like the old Baron. He even tossed the elderly Boris in dungeon. I don’t have anything at work but I do remember the people saying that Zorba had used the ServoBots to enforce curfews, etc. Also of signicance was that the crime rate rose in Latveria. Little Kristoff’s mom was the one who came running in the streets when he returned to Doomstadt, who threw herself down at his feet at his return. The burgomeister and some leading citizens met with their deposed leader also said that Zorba was just as bad as the old monarchy before Doom.

Now, back to Doom’s current plight…. I wonder how long it will be before he uses the old mind transfer trick the Ovoids taught him. He was switching bodies like mad when Reed thought he had him cornered in the dimensional prison in “Authoritative Action”.

I think Doom allowed himself to be arrested because he was clearly unprepared for a pack of powerhouses. He should be able to use the same kind of power siphoning tech on Sentry as he has in the past. Heck, even T'Challa borrowed it against the Surfer recently in the FF.

And Lex Luthor isn't even in the same league as Reed or Victor.

[Magneto Rocks]

Some corrections here from a long time Doomophile:

The government to which you are probably referring to was back in John Byrne's FF run. In Wolfman's FF, The late Prince Rodolpho's brother Prince Zorba was placed on the throne with the help of the FF when Doom was driven to madness when the image of his face was reflected back at him a million times in the Solatron complex. He did seem like he would be a better ruler than Doom. But remember, he was after all from the same line as the old despotic Baron that was wanted the head of Victor's father.

When Doom regained his sanity, he forced the FF into restoring him to the throne in FF 246-247. True to his lineage, Zorba had become paranoid and ruthless just like the old Baron. He even tossed the elderly Boris in dungeon. I don’t have anything at work but I do remember the people saying that Zorba had used the ServoBots to enforce curfews, etc. Also of signicance was that the crime rate rose in Latveria. Little Kristoff’s mom was the one who came running in the streets when he returned to Doomstadt, who threw herself down at his feet at his return. The burgomeister and some leading citizens met with their deposed leader also said that Zorba was just as bad as the old monarchy before Doom.

Actually, that wasn't what I was referring to, though I had it in mind when I mentioned him being deposed in the past and people wanting him back in power again. I actually meant Reed Richards' brief period of government far more recently in "Authoritive Action", where people protested and waved Doom masks initially despite Reed's far more benevolent style of leadership.

Now, back to Doom’s current plight…. I wonder how long it will be before he uses the old mind transfer trick the Ovoids taught him. He was switching bodies like mad when Reed thought he had him cornered in the dimensional prison in “Authoritative Action”.

The thing about that trick though, is that like magic, it depends on whether or not the writer remembers it. A LOT of people had forgotten thje body swap before Waid brought it back, and I've seen few writers use magic in the way Bendis has. If Bendis writes what happens next, it's likely he'll ignore the mind transfer, though I wouldn't be surprised to see Millar use it.

I never bought the Thanos = Darkseid argument. I mean the resembelence and idelogoies are clear, but Thanos never realy grabbed me the way Darkseid did.

Believe me, I *adore* Darkseid and despise Thanos, but it's clear Thanos was heavily inspired by Darkseid, to the extent that he's basically a rip-off. He's been fleshed out enough since then to distinguish them somewhat, but he was always going to be worse if only because Starlin's great, but he's no Kirby.

Still, I think this was totally legit win for the MA's. You know me, I'm a doom fan, but fighting a God, Iron Man and the Sentry... well, you're kinda screwed. It was impressive that he held them off for that long and almost won. The fact that this is the first clear loss for doom in a long time is saying something.

Agreed. In fact, I think it's fair to say that taking down the world's #1 Super-Villain is the single biggest accomplishment of the Initiative to date. (Which is saying quite a lot, actually).

[Iron Maiden]

Actually, that wasn't what I was referring to, though I had it in mind when I mentioned him being deposed in the past and people wanting him back in power again. I actually meant Reed Richards' brief period of government far more recently in "Authoritive Action", where people protested and waved Doom masks initially despite Reed's far more benevolent style of leadership. .

You're right but that's got a strange history to it.... remember, Reed was kicked out by Nick Fury and then we had Lucrezia von Bardos (sp?), who was at first on the U.S favored nation's list but then she turned into some weird harpy creature thing in Secret War. So once again, a ruler as bad or worse than the barony.

Funny how in light of things going on in Iraq, Byrne's Doom story "This Land is Mine", which was controversial at the time looks prophetic. Many people feel we have screwed up Iraq worse that will probably remain in chaos for years to come.

The thing about that trick though, is that like magic, it depends on whether or not the writer remembers it. A LOT of people had forgotten thje body swap before Waid brought it back, and I've seen few writers use magic in the way Bendis has. If Bendis writes what happens next, it's likely he'll ignore the mind transfer, though I wouldn't be surprised to see Millar use it.

I like to think that Doom is loathe to use it because he wants to keep his own superior form. He was repelled by the body of Zarkko the Tomorrow Man and couldn't get out of it fast enough. Same with the Norman McArthur guy he swapped with when Terrax's implosion burned Doom's body to a cinder. He insisted that the Beyonder restore him to his original body.

[Mark_S]

Again, non prep time Doom. In fact, a Doom who had absolutely no idea about Sentry's past. Put it like this- given Doom's history, I very much doubt he'll be unprepared for Sentry next time.



Rubbish. Doom's a thousand times smarter than Lex is, more inventive than Lex is, more dubious than Lex is, and magic's a pretty colossal wildcard. T

Plus let's remember- when given time to prepare and scheme, Doom was able to take down the Silver Surfer, a Watcher, and oh yeah- GALACTUS at different points. I wouldn't write him off against Thanos if he knew the T-man was coming and had time to scheme.


When written well Doom is a combination of Lex and Batman. In this case though he was taken completely by surprise and still would have taken them out if not for Sentry. So if he is written as Doom should be written after this Sentry is not going to be a problem next time.

Mark_S

[Will.S]

I liked this issue a lot.

I do agree that Doom "thought monologuing" wasn't really a good use of the thought balloon. Bendis should have just had him monologue the whole thing because Doom is thinking about an awful lot of stuff between words.

Outside of that Spider-Woman already confirms my suspicions that she's a skrull (or a special type of super skrull) and Black Widow is also another candidate as said by many others here. I loved how Doom wanted Ares to call Zeus to get his attention and overall the team dynamics and character interactions were very true to form. Great reference from "Spider-Woman" about the New Avengers when they got tie up naked in the Savage Land.

Very interesting to see Doom put in jail as well and I loved Iron Man's line towards Doom, that was pretty bad ass. Art wise Bagley's art was solid as hell. I just thought that the coloring took a slight hit due to it being somewhat muted compared to the excellent old school dot matrix look Justin had going on and the previous issues popped up more.

8.5/10

[maniacmatt]

I think Spiderwoman got switched with a Skrull during the symbiote attack. If you go back and read that issue, a symbiote attaches to her, she's in one or two more panels, and then disappears. We next see her flying down off a building a few panels after it's all over. I went back and looked, and she hasn't had a single thought bubble since that issue. It would also explain why she wouldn't want to see the medic, as is implied in her talk with Widow.

[XPac]

Believe me, I *adore* Darkseid and despise Thanos, but it's clear Thanos was heavily inspired by Darkseid, to the extent that he's basically a rip-off. He's been fleshed out enough since then to distinguish them somewhat, but he was always going to be worse if only because Starlin's great, but he's no Kirby.



.

Though I agree Kirby is better that Starlin (and really just about anyone else), Kirby hasn't written Darkseid in a very very long time. Honestly, prior to Countdown I haven't taken Darkseid as that serious a villain in a very very long time. Maybe decades.

I guess it's all subjective, but I think Thanos has been written better. His cred as a villain, similiar to Doom, has been protected unlike Darkseid. DC in general does a bad job with this. Doomsday, Zoom, Neuron, Bane... perfectly good villains that start off as beasts but get watered down because they end up cannon fodder. I'll say Darkseid is being used well NOW... but that's not something I could say since really the pre-Crisis days.

Both Thanos and Doom are perfect examples of how to treat a villain. People complain that the characters are "protected" but really that's what you need to do in order to make the villain still be "feared" in a medium where they lose 99.99% of the time.

[Iron Maiden]

:D :D
Both Thanos and Doom are perfect examples of how to treat a villain. People complain that the characters are "protected" but really that's what you need to do in order to make the villain still be "feared" in a medium where they lose 99.99% of the time.

Exactly....this is similar to what JMS said in an interview here when he was being interviewed about taking on the FF. To paraphrase, his plan was to give Doom some kind of victory to give back his credibilty. To some extent he did that when he faced literally the hordes of Hell and told them to bring it on before Thor's hammer opened a dimensional escape hatch for him to get back to Earth. I think if Civil War hadn't got in the way, he could have wrote a butt kicking FF/Doom story. Certainly, his dialogue would be better than Bendis.

I was thinking that that line was absolutely out of character for Dr. Doom.:eek:

One of the worst ever IMO. What, is he Bart Simpson now? I can see him saying "blathering bovine". The only thing I will say is that he was too busy thinking to come up with his usual oratorical flair. That was the only time the use of thought bubbles made sense, to show that he was thinking on his feet. The others were just duplicating what they were saying, which shows how far down the scale they are from Doom.:D

[SquidSquod]

Thanos when resurrected is in need more of a lift than Dr. Doom. Doom is a bane of Earth and when lucky, occassional other realms. Thanos is the bane of the universe, being a Titan and Gods/Cosmic power smacker. It's a poor showing when a cosmic level badass gets taken down by a lone Earthling.

I want to see Thor, Hulk, and Sentry get smacked by Thanos altogether while having Dr. Doom as his pet.

[Will.S]

Thanos when resurrected is in need more of a lift than Dr. Doom. Doom is a bane of Earth and when lucky, occassional other realms. Thanos is the bane of the universe, being a Titan and Gods/Cosmic power smacker. It's a poor showing when a cosmic level badass gets taken down by a lone Earthling.
Referring to the Ka-Zar vs Thanos confrontation? That was retconned already so there's no need to worry about that.

I want to see Thor, Hulk, and Sentry get smacked by Thanos altogether while having Dr. Doom as his pet.
I'm really not that much of a fanatic of Thanos to want to see that again anytime soon. We already know he can do that type of stuff and he has countless times before so it's nice that he's been taken off the table. Thanos's cosmic cred hasn't been shredded to the level of Darkseid so when he returns I don't see writers making him any less of a threat.

Dr. Doom on the other hand still as high cred points for me considering he was able to take on the Avengers with such success after being caught off-guard.

[Enyo]

Hey there, first post.

Is it just me or was Carol holding a dead Tony and the touch of Sentry bring him back to life before repowering his armor??? and don't forget that Spider Woman and Tony are in cahoots and he may have given her some stealthy surprise tech just in case.

[Don Quixote]

As for the skrull suspects, gotta be Black widow. Was her eyes always green?

If it turns out shes a skrull and the one in Captain America isnt, Tony must feel pretty stupid since he has interacted with both.

The fact they have different hairstyles should really have tipped him off. But they already seem to confirm with Ms Marvel that Skrull versions are around at the same time as the real article. I wonder how confusing it might get to figure out which scenes really featured Carol Danvers, and when it was the Skrull.

[SquidSquod]

I'm really not that much of a fanatic of Thanos to want to see that again anytime soon. We already know he can do that type of stuff and he has countless times before so it's nice that he's been taken off the table. Thanos's cosmic cred hasn't been shredded to the level of Darkseid so when he returns I don't see writers making him any less of a threat.

Dr. Doom on the other hand still as high cred points for me considering he was able to take on the Avengers with such success after being caught off-guard.

Well I hope they put Thanos threat level far above Thor, Magneto, Mephisto, Doom and make no doubt on that. A weak cosmic villain -> a weak cosmic universe, and that's what Marvel's getting from Annihilation.

[XPac]

Well I hope they put Thanos threat level far above Thor, Magneto, Mephisto, Doom and make no doubt on that. A weak cosmic villain -> a weak cosmic universe, and that's what Marvel's getting from Annihilation.

Well, I'm honestly now sure that Thanos even qualifies as a villain at this point.

But either way, I do think the cosmic universe is being toned down at least in scale. We're not dealing with Infinity Gauntlet level threats where the cosmics need to circle the wagons... it's more intergalactic wars.

And that's not necessarily a bad thing... regardless of the power level of a threat, a good story is a good story.

[Will.S]

But either way, I do think the cosmic universe is being toned down at least in scale. We're not dealing with Infinity Gauntlet level threats where the cosmics need to circle the wagons... it's more intergalactic wars.

And that's not necessarily a bad thing... regardless of the power level of a threat, a good story is a good story.
Exactly.

I'm sure if they want to whip up some Infinity Gauntlet type threat they can do so at any time.

[SquidSquod]

I'm sure there are more creative ways than just bringing back the Gauntlet again.

And Thanos should be certifiably evil, just like Doom, Mags and the whole villain squads. Credible villains -> less heroes vs heroes shenanigans.

[Magneto Rocks]

Though I agree Kirby is better that Starlin (and really just about anyone else), Kirby hasn't written Darkseid in a very very long time. Honestly, prior to Countdown I haven't taken Darkseid as that serious a villain in a very very long time. Maybe decades.

Fair enough.

...Kind of ironic that Darkseid's getting some of his mojo back under STARLIN though, isn't it? ;)

I guess it's all subjective, but I think Thanos has been written better. His cred as a villain, similiar to Doom, has been protected unlike Darkseid. DC in general does a bad job with this. Doomsday, Zoom, Neuron, Bane... perfectly good villains that start off as beasts but get watered down because they end up cannon fodder. I'll say Darkseid is being used well NOW... but that's not something I could say since really the pre-Crisis days.

Oh absolutely, I completely agree. But for every Godawful Darkseid story out there, we can still go back and read Kirby's work, or "Great Darkness Saga", or whatever. Plus, I point you to the Animated Universe, where Darkseid got some phenomenal use.

In any case, Morrison looks to be fixing this one, as he's retconning it so that every previous appearance of Darkseid was just a "projection", and the heroes have yet to face the real thing. I have no doubt that after "Final Crisis", Darkseid will be restored to his rightful place in the pantheon. (IE: The top.)

Both Thanos and Doom are perfect examples of how to treat a villain. People complain that the characters are "protected" but really that's what you need to do in order to make the villain still be "feared" in a medium where they lose 99.99% of the time.

Not sure about Thanos in this respect. I think you can let a villain have occasional defeats without ruining him (See Doom), whereas Starlin seems Hellbent on leaving Thanos utterly undefeated.

[XPac]

In any case, Morrison looks to be fixing this one, as he's retconning it so that every previous appearance of Darkseid was just a "projection", and the heroes have yet to face the real thing. I have no doubt that after "Final Crisis", Darkseid will be restored to his rightful place in the pantheon. (IE: The top.)




So in other words, Morrision is doing to Darkseid what Starlin did with Thanos.

That kid of proves my point, don't ya think?

[marvelboi77]

If Black Widow is a skrull then wouldn't that undermine the romantic aspect of Brubaker's story in Captain America right now?

Is Black Widow a skrull are we serious. She looks completly different in two comics that comes out every month. Hello... she is either a Skrull, or bad editing, or she just wears extensions sometimes...:eek:

[marvelboi77]

I think Spiderwoman got switched with a Skrull during the symbiote attack. If you go back and read that issue, a symbiote attaches to her, she's in one or two more panels, and then disappears. We next see her flying down off a building a few panels after it's all over. I went back and looked, and she hasn't had a single thought bubble since that issue. It would also explain why she wouldn't want to see the medic, as is implied in her talk with Widow.

But she remembers being naked in New Avengers #5???:eek:

[marvelboi77]

I sure hope Spider-Woman is not a Skull, she is my favorite and I will be heart broken. Plus I have all of this new Original artwork that technically would not be the real Spider-Woman.:confused:

[XPac]

Is Black Widow a skrull are we serious. She looks completly different in two comics that comes out every month. Hello... she is either a Skrull, or bad editing, or she just wears extensions sometimes...:eek:

Hmmm... so she changed her costume and hair. That means one of two things... Black Widow is either a Skrull, or a woman. Either way, she's clearly evil and needs to be destroyed.

In all seriousness though, I'm assuming that appearance issues only count as clues if they involve the color green.

[Dr. Chaos]

I shall maintain to my dying day that this was a Doombot.
It's still in continuity at last check.

Any lame attempts to say "no! it's okay! it wasn't him! You don't have to develop a sense of humor, true believers!' have thankfully been retconned.

As far as the Darkseid/Thanos argument, they both bore me equally, I couldn't care less more about one or the other.

[maniacmatt]

But she remembers being naked in New Avengers #5???:eek:

I'll bet you there were Skrulls in the Savage Land.

[Will.S]

In any case, Morrison looks to be fixing this one, as he's retconning it so that every previous appearance of Darkseid was just a "projection", and the heroes have yet to face the real thing. I have no doubt that after "Final Crisis", Darkseid will be restored to his rightful place in the pantheon. (IE: The top.)
When did Morrison say this?

[Trey]

Fair enough.

..
Not sure about Thanos in this respect. I think you can let a villain have occasional defeats without ruining him (See Doom), whereas Starlin seems Hellbent on leaving Thanos utterly undefeated.

Well, Thor gave him a big beat down early in Jurgen's run.


Thanos is one of my favorite Marvel character's, so I hope he comes back soon. Probably, in DnA's Guardians of the Galaxy.

Back on topic, I am really impressed by Bagley's art during this run.
And spoilers are floating around the Internet about Doom's future.

[PastePotPete]

Well...not the WHOLE issue. The following line definitely got a laugh out of me:

"Shut your cow-mouth or I will remove your face by hand before I stop your whore's heart."

Now THAT is some villainous dialogue. Also, Doom insisting Ares summon his father so he could turn him over was hilarious.


Damn right. Bendis's strength is dialogue. It's also his weakness. Some times he gives you too much dialogue. That's why so many people have a problem with the thought bubbles I think. A writer who already has too many bubbles on the page found a way to put MORE bubbles on the page!

But yeah, Doom's dialogue in this issue is priceless. I really like Bendis's Doom and I hope we get to see him write Doom again.

Just telling each of them that nobody would care if they died! LOL. That's really funny in a meta way, you know? Cuz in the real world Captain America is in the New York Times if he dies in the comic, but if Wonderman or Ms. Marvel bought the farm nobody would care. Very funny.

[XPac]

Damn right. Bendis's strength is dialogue. It's also his weakness. Some times he gives you too much dialogue. That's why so many people have a problem with the thought bubbles I think. A writer who already has too many bubbles on the page found a way to put MORE bubbles on the page!

But yeah, Doom's dialogue in this issue is priceless. I really like Bendis's Doom and I hope we get to see him write Doom again.

Just telling each of them that nobody would care if they died! LOL. That's really funny in a meta way, you know? Cuz in the real world Captain America is in the New York Times if he dies in the comic, but if Wonderman or Ms. Marvel bought the farm nobody would care. Very funny.

Yeah, Dooms speech was pretty impressive. He has no diabolical plot he could monologue about, so he had to improv. And he even hurt Ms. Marvel's feelings to boot.

[spiderman_rj]

why didnt doom use the timestuff to clean his name ? couldnt he broadcast sth showing his inocence,the removal os his mask was mean,and lame....im droping this book.....seriously,since when can iron man stand a nuclear bast....or the arcana shield be deflected?

[Kirk G]

why didnt doom use the timestuff to clean his name ? couldnt he broadcast sth showing his inocence,the removal os his mask was mean,and lame....im droping this book.....seriously,since when can iron man stand a nuclear bast....or the arcana shield be deflected?

Yeah a lot of this didn't add up for me.
The ripping off of the mask I think was to proove that it was/is the human Doom...
But I'm not beyond believing that the whole mission to Latvaria was to neutralize Doom as being a safe haven for resistance to the Skrulls... in other words, either Tony or someone else set it up so there was an EXCUSE to go clean Doom's clock and get him under wraps...:eek:

[Toboe]

This was certainly the best issue for this arc, but I still not that into it.
Bagley's art looked bad to me during the whole thing. The venom invasion proved to be irrelevant. And the dialgoue is quite bad most of the time, the thought bubbles remaining amazingly annoying.

Still, I really enjoyed the glimpses into Doom and Morgan Le Fay's relationship, so beautifully illustrated by Djurdjevic. Wonder what is it that she wanted from him, and what her retribution will be once he failed to provide it.

And I'm sure that if the ending had not been spoiled by FF solicits, it would have shocked me. Anyway, I'm much more looking forward to what Millar and Hitch have in store for Victor Von Doom.

Wonder how his imprisonment will affect his recent alliances with Namor and Loki.

[OnslaughtKILLS]

Dr. Doom is one of the most recognizable villains of all comics. He is one of the most popular and known villains in Marvel Comics, and for good reasons as well. He is a villain with many dimensions, much character development, and one who possesses great abilities and has a genius level IQ.

I find it inexcusable to downgrade Dr. Doom to a filler story. Latveria is a sovereign nation, has an army (what happened to the Doom Bots?) has many allies, has loyal citizens, and Dr. Doom is one not to be reckoned with. Also I would like to know how and why he didn't prep for an invasion. He does after all lead an aggressive nation.

Yes, Dr. Doom did handle the Mighty Avengers longer than any villain I can think of would be able to, yes he did use all of his abilities (summoning demons, magical attacks, etc) but I still can't believe he was pummeled in the manner he was. How come he couldn't use his magic to teleport elsewhere to regroup/re-plan? How come he didn't even put up a fight against Sentry, nor sense he was coming?

The art was great as usual, coming from Mark Bagley. What I don't think you guys realize is the extremely tight schedule the Mighty Avengers have (especially since the earlier issues were delayed because of Cho). In order to be a good artist in comics, you have to be fast and proficient. Mark Bagley is a GREAT artist and extremely fast. He is my favorite artist in Marvel Comics, and I surely will miss him.

[jackolover]

I'm really not that much of a fanatic of Thanos to want to see that again anytime soon. We already know he can do that type of stuff and he has countless times before so it's nice that he's been taken off the table. Thanos's cosmic cred hasn't been shredded to the level of Darkseid so when he returns I don't see writers making him any less of a threat.

.

Isn't Apocalypse on a power level with Thanos and Darkseid?

[MichaelChen]

Eh, he was heavily implied to be, back when he was this Chthuluesque being that must be prevented from ever rising at full power. Once he was finally in fact resurected, he was de facto retconned downwards in power.

[Will.S]

Isn't Apocalypse on a power level with Thanos and Darkseid?
Nope, I doubt that he ever will quite frankly.

[Chinofish]

Am i reading too much into it or did anyone else think it was weird that Tony did not want sentry to rip off his faceplate? I think that since he took that nuclear hit, he might have reverted back to skrull while recovering. Does anyone know if skrulls revert if harmed or while recovering?

[DeadXMan]

A powerful enough blow will make them lose concentration on their shape (see NA 39)

[tkitna]

Yes, Dr. Doom did handle the Mighty Avengers longer than any villain I can think of would be able to, yes he did use all of his abilities (summoning demons, magical attacks, etc) but I still can't believe he was pummeled in the manner he was. How come he couldn't use his magic to teleport elsewhere to regroup/re-plan? How come he didn't even put up a fight against Sentry, nor sense he was coming?


I dont think Doom realized that the Sentry was coming. It was kind of a speedblitz type of deal to me. Doom was wrapped up in his spell and was trying to recite it to take the offensive when Sentry got to him. I mean, the boxes used to indicate Dooms armor updates stated something like 'security fields were at full power and now engaging mystic arcana' and I think the very next panel it had one stating 'security field breach,,,take evasive action'. It was to late. Sentry already had his hand on Dooms face.

Pretty good Sentry feat to be able to bust through Dooms forcefield like it was nothing more than paper mache. Not many heros or villians can make that claim.

[SquidSquod]

Not sure about Thanos in this respect. I think you can let a villain have occasional defeats without ruining him (See Doom), whereas Starlin seems Hellbent on leaving Thanos utterly undefeated.

Thanos should be as bad ass as he can be. If Iron Man has little chance of defeating Thor, Doom has little chance to best Thanos.

Dr. Doom is the Joker of MU. He's the most popular villain so by itself that's a very big feat. However, make no mistake Thanos is top of the food chain. This is the Gods' Dr. Doom.

[jackolover]

The venom invasion proved to be irrelevant. And the dialgoue is quite bad most of the time, the thought bubbles remaining amazingly annoying..

The Venom invasion had one relevance. If brought to a head that Tony and the Initiative could wipe the floor with Doom, and did so, thus eliminating Doom as a threat.

Still, I really enjoyed the glimpses into Doom and Morgan Le Fay's relationship, so beautifully illustrated by Djurdjevic. Wonder what is it that she wanted from him, and what her retribution will be once he failed to provide it..

Mystic Arcana got a mention in this issue. I wonder if that was a clue being dropped.

And I'm sure that if the ending had not been spoiled by FF solicits, it would have shocked me. Anyway, I'm much more looking forward to what Millar and Hitch have in store for Victor Von Doom..

Me too, after this. I wasn't interested in Millars Doom, until I learned Doom was arrested. I want to know what the authorities think is a suitable jail for Victor. That should be a laugh.



Wonder how his imprisonment will affect his recent alliances with Namor and Loki.

My feeling is, jail holds no fear, or impediment for Doom. Whatever alliances he has, he can still deliver his side of the bargain on his cell phone.

[jackolover]

Hey there, first post.

Is it just me or was Carol holding a dead Tony and the touch of Sentry bring him back to life before repowering his armor??? and don't forget that Spider Woman and Tony are in cahoots and he may have given her some stealthy surprise tech just in case.

Welcome to the CBR.

Yes, Tony did appear to die, just after Carol drained all the power out of his body. Then when Sentry tried to remove his face plate, Tony miraculously awakens. Very deus ex machina of him, or, a little suspicious.

I think surprise stealth tech and mystic arcana are two different things. If Jess is now discovering she can overcome magic then........ Where is Wanda by the way?

[Iron Maiden]

Taking a guess from some of the solicits, I wonder if it's Nick Fury that busts Doom out of confinement somehow.

[Camron Amaya]

Didn't think it was posible but my hatred for Sentry the Emo grows even more.

[LordKaos]

Cow-mouth? Whore?


Doom doesn't talk like that.

[StoneGold]

Very deus ex machina of him, or, a little suspicious.


Wow are you ever misusing that term.

[mikekerr3]

Doom also got his ass handed to him by Squirrel Girl :D

She needs to take down the Sentry next.

[bjtrdff]

Welcome to the CBR.

Yes, Tony did appear to die, just after Carol drained all the power out of his body. Then when Sentry tried to remove his face plate, Tony miraculously awakens. Very deus ex machina of him, or, a little suspicious.

I think surprise stealth tech and mystic arcana are two different things. If Jess is now discovering she can overcome magic then........ Where is Wanda by the way?


Tony is also like 90% robot now, and did just survive being turned into a woman. I don't think the Sentry had anything to do with him 'coming back'.

[Karthak]

Good issue, though my dislike of the Sentry has deepend even more. NOBODY should humiliate Von Doom like that and get away with it! (wait a minute, when did I become a Doom fan?)

Also, I thought I had gotten over my dislike of Stark, but when he stood over Doom and said "do you recognize my authority now?" I just wanted to rip his head off. Maybe because he was such a smug b@&¤ there.

[StoneGold]

Good issue, though my dislike of the Sentry has deepend even more. NOBODY should humiliate Von Doom like that and get away with it! (wait a minute, when did I become a Doom fan?)


You think that is embarrassing? You ever read the one where Doom got trapped in the null energy box, and the FF was hauling him around like cargo?

[Will.S]

Cow-mouth? Whore?


Doom doesn't talk like that.
Eh I was ok with it.

He's notably pissed off.

[Trey]

Taking a guess from some of the solicits, I wonder if it's Nick Fury that busts Doom out of confinement somehow.

Nope, its not Fury, according to spoilers on the Internets.

[PastePotPete]

Cow-mouth? Whore?


Doom doesn't talk like that.

How does he talk? Do an impression for us.

[agirlyman]

I tell you what, I am rellishing the enevitable payback Doom will have for Sentry, you honestly think he will forget this humiliation? I think he might actually kill the Sentry, or spend the rest of his days trying. Stark may have a couple things coming as well, I get giddy like a japanese school girl jsut thinking about it. Some of the things Doom said were odd, oh I believe he thinks women are beneath him, but it was just weird. Ms. Marvel too, "Yo Doom!", that didn't seem to fit knowing how old she is, but hey i'm almost 45 and I say "Yo" once in awhile lol. Last, but not least, I am loving the art on this mag, nuff said!

Tee Hee

[SeritoNiN]

Didn't think it was posible but my hatred for Sentry the Emo grows even more.

I agree, he's a terrible character and an obvious, easy write-out of a plot hole. I wish Bendis would get off his high horse and admit the character is a failure and do away with him during the invasion.

Bendis seems to be big on creating new characters and leaving his mark at Marvel, Between Maria Hill, That girl from secret war that makes the earthquakes (and i'm sure will return on fury's side in invasion) the whole new group of heroes fury is supposed to return with in, invasion, sentry, the re-done spider-woman, the all new luke cage and jessica jones. Enough is enough. I can appreciate a new character here and there, but if you ask me, we need some decent, new, well thought up villians in the Marvel U before we need a new group of heroes.

This isn't to sound like I'm bashing Bendis. I like a lot of his work, his run on daredevil, I feel, puts Brubakers current run to shame, his Alias was top notch, Pulse was interesting for a while, New Avengers has been hit or miss.

I just don't like the massive intro's of b-list good guys he tries to push as A-listers.

Brian Reed has done more for Ms. Marvel and putting her in the A-list in the last year, than Bendis has done with any one of his characters, ever.

I like Bendis, but I'm not a biased, blind, fan boy. Sometimes him and Millar just put their nose too far up in the air.

[Mikl C]

What an absolutely DREADFUL issue.
Seriously.
I used to love MA, but this was utter rubbish! Am I reading the same thing as you guys? Maybe it's the awful childish art but it just seems so.. juvenile.

[SeritoNiN]

What an absolutely DREADFUL issue.
Seriously.
I used to love MA, but this was utter rubbish! Am I reading the same thing as you guys? Maybe it's the awful childish art but it just seems so.. juvenile.

Nah, it was a bad arc. I totally agree with you. Nothing was advanced, nothing of note worthiness was accomplished. If you're gonna tell me it took 3 issues to figure a way to put doom in jail, then I'm at a loss of words...

[Will.S]

Nah, it was a bad arc. I totally agree with you. Nothing was advanced, nothing of note worthiness was accomplished. If you're gonna tell me it took 3 issues to figure a way to put doom in jail, then I'm at a loss of words...
You cannot be serious.

[Mark_S]

How does he talk? Do an impression for us.

"Be silent ignorant woman. You thoughts are of no concern to Doom! You are merely the arm of my true foe: Tony Stark. You have no thoughts beyond serving him and are thus beneath my notice."

Or close to that. Doom written best is Proffessor Moriarty as played on the stage by a 19th century actor. Bendis really did try, but I'm not sure he knows how to handle Doom's manor of speach. Give him any street punk and Bendis has no problem with the dialogue, but a villain like Doom or the Mandarin or Thanos and he just doesn't seem to have the handle.

Mark_S

[PastePotPete]

"Be silent ignorant woman. You thoughts are of no concern to Doom! You are merely the arm of my true foe: Tony Stark. You have no thoughts beyond serving him and are thus beneath my notice."

Or close to that. Doom written best is Proffessor Moriarty as played on the stage by a 19th century actor. Bendis really did try, but I'm not sure he knows how to handle Doom's manor of speach. Give him any street punk and Bendis has no problem with the dialogue, but a villain like Doom or the Mandarin or Thanos and he just doesn't seem to have the handle.

Mark_S

LOL. Yeah, that's pretty good I guess. I still prefer Bendis's take though. Bendis's dialogue, while perhaps updated for the modern reader, does not strike me as out of character for Doom at all.

I am confused at people saying this was a bad arc. I thought it moved much faster than the Ultron arc, and that each issue had a lot of great developments and surprises.

Well, you can please some of the people some of the time...

[Will.S]

"Be silent ignorant woman. You thoughts are of no concern to Doom! You are merely the arm of my true foe: Tony Stark. You have no thoughts beyond serving him and are thus beneath my notice."

Or close to that. Doom written best is Proffessor Moriarty as played on the stage by a 19th century actor. Bendis really did try, but I'm not sure he knows how to handle Doom's manor of speach. Give him any street punk and Bendis has no problem with the dialogue, but a villain like Doom or the Mandarin or Thanos and he just doesn't seem to have the handle.
You're Doom impression is good but that feels too antiquated and extreme nowadays. Like I could understand Byrne or Claremont writing him that way but I'd like to hear Doom's using a mix of more modern vernacular and his pompous old self.

Bendis certainly takes a more experimental approach with Dr. Doom's speech and mannerisms that I can appreciate it on some levels while on others I get weirded out by him talking much more normally than I would expect. On one hand I don't want Dr. Doom to sound like a caricature of himself by constantly referring to himself in the third person because I want to see a more modern type of speech. On the other hand we've grown so accustomed to it that it feels weird when it's not done on a regular basis.

[Mark_S]

You're Doom impression is good but that feels too antiquated and extreme nowadays. Like I could understand Byrne or Claremont writing him that way but I'd like to hear Doom's using a mix of more modern vernacular and his pompous old self.

Bendis certainly takes a more experimental approach with Dr. Doom's speech and mannerisms that I can appreciate it on some levels while on others I get weirded out by him talking much more normally than I would expect. On one hand I don't want Dr. Doom to sound like a caricature of himself by constantly referring to himself in the third person because I want to see a more modern type of speech. On the other hand we've grown so accustomed to it that it feels weird when it's not done on a regular basis.

Well the thing is that Doom is a throwback. He is the old style villain and updating him is very hard to do. Victor is the type of guy who devoured the classics and proabably considers the Beatles to be too modern. He's a guy who loves opera and piano concertos and above all else considers himself a gentlemen. While I can sort of see him insulting Carol that way because he does consider her a peasent/servent/serving wench for Tony the words are right. "Whore" is a word he would use, but "Cow mouth"? That in my opinion was Bendis striving for true Doom dialogue and not quite making it. If you've ever seen Wuthering Heights with Laurence Olivier or Jane Eyer with Orson Wells you have an idea of what kind of man Doom is, or styles himself to be. To me that's a large part of the character and it sort of sets him apart from Lex Luthor who has gone through many changes and adapted to every age. Doom doesn't adapt to the times, in his mind the times need to adapt to Doom.

Mark_S

[XPac]

I think something to remember here is that Doom is also basically improving here. As his own thought bubbles show, he was badly blindsided by this whole thing. He was sort of babbling on to put up a front that he was in control of a situation that he obviously was not.

This was not Doom in his A game... but he was trying to come off like it was. His thought bubbles were more his true voice... the actual dialogue was just him putting on a show.

[Mark_S]

That is basically how they beat him, and really it was Sentry who did all the work. Minus Sentry and they'd have lost. I feel sorry for Latveria though being under SHIELD thumb now.

Mark_S

[XPac]

That is basically how they beat him, and really it was Sentry who did all the work. Minus Sentry and they'd have lost. I feel sorry for Latveria though being under SHIELD thumb now.

Mark_S

Yup, this really was the Sentry show. Honestly, he really didn't need anyone else. He handled an un-prepped Doom pretty easily (though I think we all know a Round 2 will likely be a much different story). But Sentry really needed this... he really needed a moment to shine since he understandably does so little.

The future of Latveria is an interesting question. I wonder if down the line the UN will argue that Doom should have diplomatic immunity and be released, or if he'll remain a futigive criminal from this point on. I hope it's the former... it's just weird not having him ruler of Latveria. Him being reduced to your basic mad scientist hiding underground would suck.

[worstblogever]

What an absolutely DREADFUL issue.
Seriously.
I used to love MA, but this was utter rubbish! Am I reading the same thing as you guys? Maybe it's the awful childish art but it just seems so.. juvenile.

Maybe it's just that you're used to seeing this art in Ultimate Spidey and its cast of damn near all teens?

I'm not saying Bagley's great, or even good... I'm just saying you might just have a subconscious association going, is all.

[Mark_S]

Yea, but it would be an interesting storyline in the hands of the right writer. Doom has hideouts all over the world, free from ruling he might turn his hand toward international politics, deciding that if the UN didn't like him as ruler of Latveria he didn't like the UN as having the right not to like him as ruler of Latveria. And he might decided that SHIELD would have to go since SHIELD is the principle military arm of the UN. So he'd start with SHIELD and the UN, lure the Avengers into a battle and we could go from there. Also as a fugitive he could gather together a few others who have felt picked on by the UN and SHIELD. Doom could go to the nz prison, open all the doors and open portals to the helicariers and the UN plaza. Then he could sit in the nz, wait for the heroes to show up and trap them all there. The nz is a big place, he could have built his own prison in another section of it, or sub contracted out to one of the races that live in the nz to use their prisons and the heroes could be placed there.
There is a lot of fun potential there. I don't think marvel will use any of it, but there is a lot of potential there.

Mark_S

[sgt pepper]

Is the point of the Morgan La Fey bookend that she got pissed at Doom for smash and dashing so she's the one who somehow magically powered up Jessica? If not, I don't see the point of it. Is it there just so we can feel bad for La Fey as she's oh so lonely boo hoo?

[XPac]

Is the point of the Morgan La Fey bookend that she got pissed at Doom for smash and dashing so she's the one who somehow magically powered up Jessica? If not, I don't see the point of it. Is it there just so we can feel bad for La Fey as she's oh so lonely boo hoo?

I don't think Bendis would throw her in there if he didn't have plans for her down the line. Everything Bendis has done since NA 1 was building towards Secret Invasion... so it's not a bad idea to lay out a few seeds for what he might do after that.

As for her reaction... I suppose like a lot of things Bendis does, it could be open ended. She could be angry with Doom.. or it could even be interpreted as concern. Given the past relationship between Spider Woman and Morgan, there's plenty for Bendis to play with there too.

[Will.S]

I think something to remember here is that Doom is also basically improving here. As his own thought bubbles show, he was badly blindsided by this whole thing. He was sort of babbling on to put up a front that he was in control of a situation that he obviously was not.

This was not Doom in his A game... but he was trying to come off like it was. His thought bubbles were more his true voice... the actual dialogue was just him putting on a show.
Right, well put.

[Monty_Cristo]

You're Doom impression is good but that feels too antiquated and extreme nowadays.

he lives in a castle. he wears a knight's armor. he hangs out with Morgan Lefey. stop defending Bendis' lack of range.

[StoneGold]

As far as Sentry casually swatting Doom, is it really any different than Thor showing up at the last second to have words with Ultron?

[Will.S]

he lives in a castle. he wears a knight's armor. he hangs out with Morgan Lefey. stop defending Bendis' lack of range.
Oh so we're going to start this again?

Goody.

[Monty_Cristo]

Oh so we're going to start this again?

Goody.

don't worry. it will be over quick. everything i said was factual.

[Will.S]

don't worry. it will be over quick. everything i said was factual.
You're not telling me anything that I don't already know so I don't understand what your point is. I thought I expressed myself as more or less neutral on the whole thing.

[XPac]

he lives in a castle. he wears a knight's armor. he hangs out with Morgan Lefey. stop defending Bendis' lack of range.

I don't think modernizing Doom a bit is necessarily an issue of the writers range. It's a valid approach to the character.

On the one hand, Doom is a classic. And classics are classics for a reason... he's dam cool.

But on the flip side, I can understand the impulse to modernize the character a t least a bit as he potentially can come off as a bit cliched or cartoony. And in this specific instance modernizing his tone a bit actually made him come off kinda funny... although it was almost weird coming from him.

It's a bit experimental... and I can see the arguements for or against it. But as long as it's not overly extreme, I don't think it's damaging to the character even if it can come off as a BIT out of character.

[SquidSquod]

Keep classic Doom. He's always about 60% Magic, 40% Tech now so modernizing him doesn't make sense.

[XPac]

Keep classic Doom. He's always about 60% Magic, 40% Tech now so modernizing him doesn't make sense.

I meant modernizing him more in terms of the way he acts and speaks.

Anyone remember when Nova used to use the catch phrase "Blue Blazes?" I don't think too many people complain about Nova largely abandoning that catch phrase. It was fine to have characters talk that way in the 70's, but it doesn't quite work in Annihilation.

In Doom's case, I don't think him telling Tony "More people hate you than me" is something Doom would necessarily say. It's certainly not the atypical villain line of an Eastern European monarch. But it was still a great line, and dam funny.

[Will.S]

Keep classic Doom. He's always about 60% Magic, 40% Tech now so modernizing him doesn't make sense.
I think they've kept Doom classic for the most part except for his speech. He still uses the same magic and armor although the armor has been tweaked too.

[XPac]

I think they've kept Doom classic for the most part except for his speech. He still uses the same magic and armor although the armor has been tweaked too.

I think Bendis has actually had the character use MORE magic than usual (which was cool). But at the same time, Bendis did a neat job highlighting the technical aspects of his armor, so there really was a nice contrast there. Which in my opinion captures Doom perfectly.

Dialogue issues aside, I think this was a perfect potrayal of Doom in my book.

[Will.S]

I think Bendis has actually had the character use MORE magic than usual (which was cool). But at the same time, Bendis did a neat job highlighting the technical aspects of his armor, so there really was a nice contrast there. Which in my opinion captures Doom perfectly.

Dialogue issues aside, I think this was a perfect potrayal of Doom in my book.
Yeah Doom actually did use a lot more magic than usual, I dug it nonetheless.

[Netley]

I love the fact that from the point of view of the Ms. Marvel and Co., Tony, Sentry, and Doom disappear without a trace, and then what seems like less than a minute later, Doom reappears with this huge army of ancient magic blobby things! They must have been like, WHAT??? haha

Also, I loved Doom's "supervillain evil monologue (tribute)"! Thought balloons allowed that classic idea to be in that scene, since it would have seemed way too hokey had he said all that out loud. (And he managed to insult everyone - especially Carol's - in between thoughts as well haha, so Doom.)

Funniest line (though maybe a little out-of-place at that time):
Janet (to Jessica, with a giggly smirk): "You saw Luke Cage naked?"

OK, now to see what you guys all think...


Anybody want to take a guess as to what La Fey wanted from Doom?

I think she wanted something from the "future" that was technological. I'll bet technology is as mystifying to her as magic would be to us. Either way, looks like Victor's in the dog house with her.

By taking Doom like this the MA have lit the fuse and it should blow up on them later.
Mark_S

Yep. Tony had to even throw in that final insult of the mask tear-off and the "authority" line (did anyone else hear Cartman's voice going "you will respect my authoritie!!!"?). Doom doesn't handle humiliation very well (I believe that's been established at least once in the past haha).


I think he is kind of responsible for it, illegally attaching that kind of WMD to a satelite was a hazard waiting to happen.


Doom would definitely be found negligent of detonating the bomb, even if it wasn't on purpose. He set it up fully knowing what it was capable of.

No, there are at least two black widows, like there are two Captain Marvels, two Daredevils, and two of other heroes when it is needed to have them do something out of character.

I really hope that is not the case for all the Skrulls. I'm sure that's going on to some degree, yet that is very different from posing as Elektra and leading a united Japanese Underworld! I don't think that there really were two DD's running around for a while, I think that was just to catch Echo off guard at that moment. I don't see it for Cap Marvel either.

I think almost all of the Skrull reveals will be Skrulls that have actually replaced a hero or villain, opposed to mere duplicates running around at the same time.

I wonder what Doom's imprisonment means in regards to all those alliances he was making behind the scenes in recent appearances.

OK, I need to know, what are the behind-the-scenes Doom allianceses??? I've heard he had one with the Red Skull, but can't remember where (if it's in Cap #1-20 I lost those issues moving, so I can't look then up :( ).

But what other alliances are you talking about? That's really interesting!


…whew! :o

[jackolover]

Given the past relationship between Spider Woman and Morgan, there's plenty for Bendis to play with there too.

Fill me in about that. I had no idea there was history there.

[XPac]

Fill me in about that. I had no idea there was history there.

She was one of Jessica's primary rogues in the old Spider-Woman book from what I understand. I really can't give you specifics since the title was a bit my time as a reader.

[jackolover]

OK, I need to know, what are the behind-the-scenes Doom allianceses??? I've heard he had one with the Red Skull, but can't remember where (if it's in Cap #1-20 I lost those issues moving, so I can't look then up :( ).

But what other alliances are you talking about? That's really interesting!


…whew! :o

There was that alliance with Lady Loki; with Black Panther and Namor; and Skull makes 4.

[jackolover]

She was one of Jessica's primary rogues in the old Spider-Woman book from what I understand. I really can't give you specifics since the title was a bit my time as a reader.

Thanks for the info.

[Yaw]

Yup, this really was the Sentry show. Honestly, he really didn't need anyone else. He handled an un-prepped Doom pretty easily (though I think we all know a Round 2 will likely be a much different story). But Sentry really needed this... he really needed a moment to shine since he understandably does so little.

The future of Latveria is an interesting question. I wonder if down the line the UN will argue that Doom should have diplomatic immunity and be released, or if he'll remain a futigive criminal from this point on. I hope it's the former... it's just weird not having him ruler of Latveria. Him being reduced to your basic mad scientist hiding underground would suck.


^^ gets it.

[Netley]

There was that alliance with Lady Loki; with Black Panther and Namor; and Skull makes 4.

Wow. Yeah, something's going down with that. Were these alliances part of some kind of connected plan, or does the reader not yet know what has gone on between Doom and the other characters? (I don't read Black Panther and didn't read the Namor mini (or the Order, if that's where that's from)).

Do you think it could have anything to do with the Skrulls? Doom didn't seem to know at all what Tony was talking about last issue of Mighty, so I don't think he had any Skrull knowledge at that point.

Oh, and sidenote: another cool line this issue...

Doom (referring to Ares' God-like diplomatic immunity due to being Zeus' son): "Tony Stark is a very smart man. A very good move, recruiting you."

I like how Doom, who's own diplomatic immunity has gotten him off the hook so many times (although ironically not this time), recognizes that Tony had turned the tables on him in this way by sending Ares. (And I want to know why Ares is scared to see his Dad!)

[jackolover]

Wow. Yeah, something's going down with that. Were these alliances part of some kind of connected plan, or does the reader not yet know what has gone on between Doom and the other characters? (I don't read Black Panther and didn't read the Namor mini (or the Order, if that's where that's from)).

Do you think it could have anything to do with the Skrulls? Doom didn't seem to know at all what Tony was talking about last issue of Mighty, so I don't think he had any Skrull knowledge at that point.


There doesn't appear to be any connection between any of the other alliances. Thay all seem separate. As for Skrull associations, at this point, I don't think so.

[Karthak]

Anyone remember when Nova used to use the catch phrase "Blue Blazes?"

He still does...

[Mark_S]

She was one of Jessica's primary rogues in the old Spider-Woman book from what I understand. I really can't give you specifics since the title was a bit my time as a reader.

Was that before or after Jessica's first or second death?

Mark_S

[Omega the Unknown]

overall, I enjoyed this 100 times more than the ultron arc (which seemed to go on forever).

my only complaint is how easily sentry went through dooms security field.

I could understand if he pummeled it several times and broke through, but to just reach thru it like that? when hulk and thor and others couldnt? nope, didnt like it. just trying to make sentry look bad-ass by jobbing doom there.


notes: iron man not wanting mask off, suspicious, hot tub conversation between natasha and jessica, also suspicious.
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