The Mystery of the Free Brand New Day copies

[ronnieramone]

Granted, I am probably the worst comic store owner in the world, but here's what I know:

Diamond is giving away free copies of ASM #546. I'm not sure why, but it looks like an even match: if you buy 8 copies of ASM anything, you get 8 more of ASM#546. I can think of a few reasons to do this: free comics boost sales. More copies of #546 floating out there increases possible chance of interest from "new readers" which ASM is now aimed at. Last reason: getting rid of a HUGE excess of inventory. Only Marvel & DIamond really know for sure.

Yes, you can adjust orders up to 3 weeks in advance, and you can see a reduction of over 10,000 units in sales from issue 549 to 550. That's just clearly comic stores going online and reducing their orders, but even that won't be entirely accurate. The sales figures to actual customers will be significantly lower, possibly up to 10,000 less than that, or around 80,000. The reason you're not seeing a sharper decline per issue is the thrice monthly schedule, not the story arc. If every store has two or three copies of an issue sitting on the shelves after one week, they still won't be able to reduce their orders for up to the next three issues, since ASM would be releasing that week, the next, and again two weeks after that, none of which would be able to be reduced. The drop of 10,000 was because, in January, comic stores saw a bunch of comics still sitting and reduced what they could, which was 550 (it was too late to reduce 549).

Also, ASM has ALWAYS been a steady backissue seller, so few stores really panic if they have an extra ASM or three lying around. It is the most likely title to sell to a random kid coming into a store with his parents for the first time. Stores are slower to reduce the number of copies of ASM (than for Iron Fist, for example), so when they do (and by so much), it's because there are a LOT of unsold issues.

I would say, looking at historical figures, that selling less than 90,000 copies of the Amazing Spider-man after a huge retcon event and massive media hype to boost the book would constitute a failure of colossal proportions. They threw every creative team they could rally at this thing, hyped it everywhere they could to anyone who would listen, and tripled output on the book. Well, sales are declining anyway, despite their best efforts, and Marvel has nothing to show for it but thousands of unwavering, pissed off fans.

[ronnieramone]

You guys all know, of course, that the sales figures for ASM #546 were artificially boosted, right?

Marvel is GIVING AWAY, even now, first printings of ASM #546. They went to a second printing prematurely, by saying they "sold out" when in reality they pre-sold the books for zero dollars.

I don't know how legal what they are doing is, since they make advertising dollars based on circulation, but why would they go to a second printing when first printings still exist in their warehouses?

Don't believe what the liars tell you. They manipulated sales figures in order to be able to claim this was a success, so that Quesada comes out a winner. There are so many unsold books out there it's ridiculous.

[Endless Flight]

You guys all know, of course, that the sales figures for ASM #546 were artificially boosted, right?

Marvel is GIVING AWAY, even now, first printings of ASM #546. They went to a second printing prematurely, by saying they "sold out" when in reality they pre-sold the books for zero dollars.

I don't know how legal what they are doing is, since they make advertising dollars based on circulation, but why would they go to a second printing when first printings still exist in their warehouses?

Don't believe what the liars tell you. They manipulated sales figures in order to be able to claim this was a success, so that Quesada comes out a winner. There are so many unsold books out there it's ridiculous.

History has a way of validating the truth.

[The Shadow]

You guys all know, of course, that the sales figures for ASM #546 were artificially boosted, right?
How?

Diamond sold out.


Marvel is GIVING AWAY, even now, first printings of ASM #546.
Where? On a street corner somewhere??


They went to a second printing prematurely, by saying they "sold out" when in reality they pre-sold the books for zero dollars.
As a business that would make ZERO sense.

Marvel didn't sell out either... Diamond did.

Where did you hear this "information" anyway? Do you blog under Marbeyb0y by chance at livewire?


I don't know how legal what they are doing is, since they make advertising dollars based on circulation, but why would they go to a second printing when first printings still exist in their warehouses?
Marvel doesn't have warehouses :confused: . The books get printed at places like Quebecor and then shipped to Diamond warehouses where the orders are broken up and shipped to stores.

Where are you GETTING this?????? It's hilarious! :D


Don't believe what the liars tell you.
Yes... says the guy with just 28 posts. I bet you have a lot more knowledge and inside information than those dastardly folks at Marvel.

[Endless Flight]

He owns a comic book store. He already posted a lengthly post somewhere explaining his information.

By the way, I hate it when somebody uses post counts as a way to verify whether someone is full of shit or not.

[ZT4]

Yes... says the guy with just 28 posts. I bet you have a lot more knowledge and inside information than those dastardly folks at Marvel.

You do yourself no favours picking on post counts. What age are you?

[The Shadow]

You do yourself no favours picking on post counts. What age are you?

I'm 33. You?

And I pick on post counts because if you look at his posting history it's pretty much a slam on OMD. Usually that means someone is back with a new name after a ban or some such. Not always of course but I've seen it happen often enough that it's suspicious.

[The Shadow]

He owns a comic book store. He already posted a lengthly post somewhere explaining his information.
I'm not saying he's lying... but it's online and thus to be taken with a grain of salt.

I could tell you I had lunch with Charleze Theron. Would you believe me?


By the way, I hate it when somebody uses post counts as a way to verify whether someone is full of shit or not.

That's OK... I hate it when people point out that they hate people who use post counts as a way to verify whether someone is full of shit or not. Looks like we're both not happy.

[JamesOliva]

How?

Diamond sold out.


Where? On a street corner somewhere??


As a business that would make ZERO sense.

Marvel didn't sell out either... Diamond did.

Where did you hear this "information" anyway? Do you blog under Marbeyb0y by chance at livewire?


Marvel doesn't have warehouses :confused: . The books get printed at places like Quebecor and then shipped to Diamond warehouses where the orders are broken up and shipped to stores.

Where are you GETTING this?????? It's hilarious! :D


Yes... says the guy with just 28 posts. I bet you have a lot more knowledge and inside information than those dastardly folks at Marvel.

Dude says he's shop owner, albeit an admittedly bad shop owner.

I like the stories, but the Graham Crackers (biggest chain in the Chicago area) still have tons left over even after their $1 sale last weekend.

[DeadXMan]

Since when did we ever took the complaints of The comic book guy
seriously?

[JamesOliva]

I'd like to think an actual business man would be able to keep the fanboy inside in check when discussing his business.

We all work on stuff we don't like from time to time, but we know what's good for business is good for business.

[mikekerr3]

I'd like to think an actual business man would be able to keep the fanboy inside in check when discussing his business.

We all work on stuff we don't like from time to time, but we know what's good for business is good for business.

If you haven't noticed he is basically saying that BND is bad for his business. low quality/bad product is not a favor to the retailer who actually has to deal with the customers.

If it was just a business to him he would have probably picked a less risky business to start.

[carabas]

Since when did we ever took the complaints of The comic book guy
seriously?In here, we are all the Comic Book Guy. If we weren't we wouldn't post on comic book message boards.

[DeadXMan]

That's why I take none of you seriously.

[JamesOliva]

If you haven't noticed he is basically saying that BND is bad for his business. low quality/bad product is not a favor to the retailer who actually has to deal with the customers.

If it was just a business to him he would have probably picked a less risky business to start.

I realized that completely and said I could see where he was coming from, mentioning that the shop I frequent isn't doing so well on BND either.

I was responding to the claim that he was just an angry fanboy who owned a shop.

[DeadXMan]

the shop I go to are doing great for ASM sales the indivisial shop arguments nulls itself out

[JamesOliva]

That's what I hear. I was merely saying that the dude is a shop owner who isn't selling the book. I said I sympathize cause, where I go it isn't and I buy Amazing every week. Every shop's different and message boards are for sounding off.

[ronnieramone]

To "The Shadow" and whomever else it may concern:

I have never been banned from any message board, though my account is relatively new. I pretty much only care about Spider-man, the character is the reason I opened my stores and got into the business. More than likely, I would not be posting here or anywhere if I weren't disappointed in the new direction that my former favorite title is going. You can probably find my "join date" as Christmas week 2007. That was the week that OMD pt. 4 was released, on Stan Lee's birthday.

I like this board because it seems to be well-moderated and even when people have disagreements, they don't usually flame each other in personal attacks. Except in this case.

I am not the type to post anonymously only to disappear into the shadows. I am fully up-front with everyone as to who I am, and I have mentioned my store on this board numerous times in the past.

My full name is Ron Ferraro and I own Nik'Lbag Comics in Pahrump, NV located at 1201 S. Hwy 160 suite 116 across from the Saddle West Casino. Before I opened this tiny little store in the middle of the desert, I owned a crummier, tinier store in Lihue, HI, also known as Nik'Lbag Comics. I have been in the business for over three years, which is not very long relative to other stores in metropolitan areas, but long enough to have learned a number of Diamond and Marvel's little tricks.

Diamond _told_ people that ASM #546 was sold out, but they had reserves for the a give-away promotion that happened this week. Diamond doesn't give away free comics, so it must have been Marvel behind the promotion. When I uncover the details as to why Diamond was shipping free copies of ASM#546 first printings without notice or request, I will post it and let you all know. It's a mystery to me, but I have strong suspicions. It wouldn't be the first time a company over-printed and gave out free books to push or promote something. Pick up the Secret Invasion Saga as proof of this. In the meantime, if you doubt my claim about ASM #546, check your LCS, and I will bet that they also received free first printings of it recently.

As to warehouses, I was referring to Diamond, of course, not Marvel, but in essence, Diamond's warehouses ARE Marvels, and DC's, and Images, etc. The whole of the comics industry is guilty of collusion, and has been getting away with it for years.

I can't go into any further detail, legally, on the subject of what I know or how I know it regarding that subject. All I can offer is my credentials and hope that a reasonable person would listen to what I suggest and dig further on the matter. Prove me wrong, if you think you can, or offer evidence that contradicts my theories.

Before declaring anything as a success just because some sales numbers for February were released and were moderately decent (they weren't very impressive at all), an intelligent person should read between the lines. Look at the other facts available and try to see a trend or pattern.

Fact: the entire comics industry noticed a significant decline starting in November of last year. This could just be the economy, it could have been somehow related to the impending writer's strike, it could have been the presidential caucuses and other national events. It could even have had something to do with the uncertain future of the Marvel and DC universes, key among Marvel's being speculation regarding Spider-man's future. I don't know the full answer, but I do know that Marvel manipulated figures as best they could to "front" a positive, successful image of BND Spider-man.

Some of you like it, and that's great, because you are buying and reading comics, which I strongly support. I'm not a big fan of this new thing, and I know that a tremendous number of other people agree with me. Quesada has been trying to put "spin" on this, fudge the numbers where he can, to be able to claim success, even if it results in a Phyrric victory. Executives do this sort of thing all the time, what makes people so naive to believe that it doesn't happen in the comics industry?

The numbers have been manipulated. The second printing was done for spin, and to have extra books to push to new readers later on, if sales started slipping. Quesada is playing for keeps here, and he will use whatever means necessary to make this single Spider-man permanent. He created a schism in Spider-man fans, lost thousands of readers, and hasn't been able to replace them with enough new ones to stave off the inevitable. I predict that sales will decline, steadily and substantially, until the three times monthly shipping and free give-aways can no longer disguise the hard truth that the idea was ill-founded and unnecessary.

And if what I think is true is ever proven, that Quesada doctored circulation to give the appearrance of success simply to achieve a silly personal goal, Quesada could very well lose his job over it.

There would be a mess, not just from a fan-schism, but from an advertising standpoint. Without money from advertising, comics would cost upwards of $10 each. Look at the rate of inflation if you think I am lying. Comics should be only about $2 each right now, if the ad sales were there like they used to be. But advertising dollars don't flow in when circulation is down, so Marvel prints limited series and tie-ins and everything they can to get the most books out there and boost circulation. There is also the idea of proliferation to win shelf-space. They print books all the time that they know they will lose money on, but if those books help them maintain market share, the stock profits make the risk worth printing those books.

Shadow, I am not blowing steam here and making stuff up. These are complicated business strategies perfected over decades and enacted at the highest level of the industry. I'm not just some maniac screaming conspiracy here. This is what comics companies do. You can disagree with my thoughts, that's fine. But don't make baseless accusations of me being a phony or a banned former poster or some other such nonsense.

I am a comic store owner who is disillusioned by the shenanigans perpetrated by the industry leader's EiC because it directly affects my business, my livelihood and of course, my favorite hobby.

[Endless Flight]

I'm not saying he's lying... but it's online and thus to be taken with a grain of salt.

I could tell you I had lunch with Charleze Theron. Would you believe me?

How many people do you know online who run around claiming they own comic book stores that might be lying?


That's OK... I hate it when people point out that they hate people who use post counts as a way to verify whether someone is full of shit or not. Looks like we're both not happy.

I'm fine. You? There are people on this board who've made more of a contribution to intelligent discourse with one post than others in 100 or 1,000. It's quality, not quantity.

[The Shadow]

How many people do you know online who run around claiming they own comic book stores that might be lying?
... how would I know if they are lying? :rolleyes:


There are people on this board who've made more of a contribution to intelligent discourse with one post than others in 100 or 1,000. It's quality, not quantity.
Yep... and as I said, I've been here long enough to get suspicious.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

So Marvel Comics is pulling essentially what I said days ago with the Taylor Hicks trick. Where the label shipped a million units to record stores and claimed Hick's was a platinum selling artist , but once facts came out were emberssed and had to restate he had only sold 700,000 copies.

Where is Dan Slott to debate this ? I mean it would be interesting to see him debate what this shop owner is stating.

[BlackToe]

Didnt diamond have a number screw up that month too?

[The Shadow]

So Marvel Comics is ALLEGEDLY pulling essentially what I said days ago with the Taylor Hicks trick.

Fixed for accuracy ;)

[Just a Shadow]

Where is Dan Slott to debate this ? I mean it would be interesting to see him debate what this shop owner is stating.

There is really no way to debate this.

Ron gave us an excellent insight into what might be going on and I'm inclined to think he's probably right. However, we can't be sure that he is right. It's certainly happening at his store, but what about the others? Of course Quesada will do everything he can to make BND a hit, so them doing things like inflating some numbers here and there through free comics and whatnot is not a major surprise. However at the same time, that doesn't mean that they are all sitting on the racks.

We've heard first hand accounts of it doing badly in a lot of stores. We've also heard first hand accounts of the opposite. Personally, I have checked in with 3 comic stores in 3 cities. 1 said they were selling okay, but not great. Another said it was selling terribly. The third said it was selling great.

As Ron pointed out, it's too early to see how the sales will factor into upcoming comic shop orders at this point. Owners might want to make sure to have some extra books handy in case it really takes off, ASM tends to be a safe book to have on the shelves, the affects of the different creative teams may lead people to go back and get the previous arc etc.

We'll have to wait a few months to see how BND has affected sales, for better or for worse, and I think that Dan is smart enough to know this and not come on and possibly make a fool of himself by stating something that could be easily disproved when more relevant and accurrate numbers come out a couple months later.

[jeffgamer]

I like this board because it seems to be well-moderated and even when people have disagreements, they don't usually flame each other in personal attacks. Except in this case.

Well, Ron, I, for one, truly appreciate your posts. You write with heart, conviction, intelligence, and candor, and you've added one more element of "eye-opening" for me.

Thank you.

[ZT4]

Slott isnt here because, since he announced it on his official site, he's working extensivly on the longest arc he's had to write yet for ASM.

Thanks Ron for posting your own account of this finanical mess.

[stingerman]

Well, Ron, I, for one, truly appreciate your posts. You write with heart, conviction, intelligence, and candor, and you've added one more element of "eye-opening" for me.

Thank you.

Nice post Ron. Another reason I can use why I am buying less and less Marvel and more Indi books.

[DaeJi]

Nice post Ron. Another reason I can use why I am buying less and less Marvel and more Indi books.

No business, not even the Indi publishers, are above this.

Ron's post is very telling. Everything about BNDis designed to sell; the three times a month schedule, the rotating writers and artist (all of whom bring their own fans), and colorful new villains and cast. None of which feels like creatively driven decisions. Honestly, reading his post, I'm thinking that what he said is more likely than not.

Buy Nova.

[Mister Mets]

No business, not even the Indi publishers, are above this.

Ron's post is very telling. Everything about BNDis designed to sell; the three times a month schedule, the rotating writers and artist (all of whom bring their own fans), and colorful new villains and cast. None of which feels like creatively driven decisions. Honestly, reading his post, I'm thinking that what he said is more likely than not.

Buy Nova.

I don't think colorful new villains, as well as the choice of writers are really the most marketable decision. Steve McNiven draws Spider-Man VS Venom is more commercial than Steve McNiven draws Spider-Man VS some guy you've never met.

And I suspect that if Marvel made every decision to get the book to sell as much as possible, they'd have added either an unambiguously popular comic book writer (Bendis, Millar, Brubaker, Ellis or Loeb) or one of the most popular Spider-Man writers of the past (Dematteis, Stern) to the creative team. Granted, the success of the first issues (and Avengers: The Initiative) has established Dan Slott as a star writer.

Meanwhile, if the three times a month schedule was guaranteed to be successful, why the hell didn't Marvel do it years earlier?

Marvel wanted the book to sell, but these decisions weren't made to make the book sell as well as possible. Many of them have creative merit.

The three times a month schedule works better than the traditional three unique monthlies schedule with a single Peter Parker, given how easily his status could change from issue to issue.

The focus on new villains means that the writers don't have to focus as much on the recent developments with the old villains, and how those would relate to BND.

[DaeJi]

I don't think colorful new villains, as well as the choice of writers are really the most marketable decision. Steve McNiven draws Spider-Man VS Venom is more commercial than Steve McNiven draws Spider-Man VS some guy you've never met.

He still draws in fans. Notice how many people follow certain writers and artists around, remember how many people said they picked this up because of Slott or McNiven. New villains help to give the illusion of change and that this is an all new era.


And I suspect that if Marvel made every decision to get the book to sell as much as possible, they'd have added either an unambiguously popular comic book writer (Bendis, Millar, Brubaker, Ellis or Loeb) or one of the most popular Spider-Man writers of the past (Dematteis, Stern) to the creative team. Granted, the success of the first issues (and Avengers: The Initiative) has established Dan Slott as a star writer.

Made my point for me :)


Meanwhile, if the three times a month schedule was guaranteed to be successful, why the hell didn't Marvel do it years earlier?

Because Marvel didn't make a decision years earlier that was likely to lose a lot of readers. This being post-Clone Saga Marvel of course.


Marvel wanted the book to sell, but these decisions weren't made to make the book sell as well as possible. Many of them have creative merit.

Three times a month is not creative merit, it's a business decision. But that doesn't make it a bad thing, a lot of good stories have come out of business decisions (like, all of them).


The three times a month schedule works better than the traditional three unique monthlies schedule with a single Peter Parker, given how easily his status could change from issue to issue.

I agree it works better. It also sells better, which is what Marvel wants.

You know I'm not saying that the book is obviously crashing that Marvel is doctoring the numbers. They may not be; this may be a genuine success. Very really change that it is. Still, everything about BND is designed to sell. Again, this isn't a bad thing, as a lot of good stories have come from these kinds of decisions (Secret Wars for one). I'm not blind; the early months of BND were always going to sell well. March should have some impressive numbers too. Maybe this will carry on and Joe Q will be proven right. Or not. Just have to wait it out on my end.

[Mister Mets]

He still draws in fans. Notice how many people follow certain writers and artists around, remember how many people said they picked this up because of Slott or McNiven. New villains help to give the illusion of change and that this is an all new era. Given the comments about how the creators are nostalgic, that hasn't exactly worked.


Made my point for me :) But he wasn't a star writer when he got the assignment.


Because Marvel didn't make a decision years earlier that was likely to lose a lot of readers. This being post-Clone Saga Marvel of course. But if this decision was guaranteed to make money, why didn't Marvel do it at a time when they weren't going to lose a lot of readers, as it still should have increased revenue then.


Three times a month is not creative merit, it's a business decision. But that doesn't make it a bad thing, a lot of good stories have come out of business decisions (like, all of them). Three times a month solves questions including negotiating changes to the status quo amongst three different monthlies.

For example- What happens if Peter Parker dumps his girlfriend in an Amazing Spider-Man issue, while both Spectacular Spider-Man is in the middle of a seven issue arc that featured appearances by Peter's girlfriend and Astonishing Spider-Man is in the third chapter of a storyline which began in the immediate aftermath of the previous storyline, which featured an appearance by Peter's girlfriend. With one book coming out three times a month, it's easier to feature smaller changes to the status quo including Peter going on a date, getting fired or losing his house. I'm trying to figure out how the Jonah losing the Bugle subplot could have played out with three different monthlies, with presumably their own storylines.


I agree it works better. It also sells better, which is what Marvel wants. If it works better, the decision has creative merit. It also had sales benefits, but that doesn't mean the only factor was making as much money as possible. Granted, this could lead to questions about the intersection between creative interests and sales interests, but that's a whole other debate.


You know I'm not saying that the book is obviously crashing that Marvel is doctoring the numbers. They may not be; this may be a genuine success. Very really change that it is. Still, everything about BND is designed to sell. Again, this isn't a bad thing, as a lot of good stories have come from these kinds of decisions (Secret Wars for one). I'm not blind; the early months of BND were always going to sell well. March should have some impressive numbers too. Maybe this will carry on and Joe Q will be proven right. Or not. Just have to wait it out on my end.I believe that while sales were a key factor, they weren't the only concern.

[DaeJi]

If it works better, the decision has creative merit. It also had sales benefits, but that doesn't mean the only factor was making as much money as possible. Granted, this could lead to questions about the intersection between creative interests and sales interests, but that's a whole other debate.

I still hold that BND was designed to sell. Everything about it screams "BUY ME!!!" As far as the interaction between creative interests and sales interests, it's simple: sales interests > creative interests. If a creative idea looks like it'll sell, they do it. If not, it's shoot down.


I believe that while sales were a key factor, they weren't the only concern.

With what happened, sales have to be the key factor. Joe Q took a huge gamble, and if this backfires (especially badly) it could be his job. The books need to sell and BND has to be a success. Which isn't to say that none of the ideas have been creative; the exclusion of Mary Jane and older villains is a creative move in my opinion.

[nester]

I still hold that BND was designed to sell. Everything about it screams "BUY ME!!!" As far as the interaction between creative interests and sales interests, it's simple: sales interests > creative interests. If a creative idea looks like it'll sell, they do it. If not, it's shoot down.


It kind of reminds me of when shows started to get retooled so that they could be aired in syndication.

I think the reason why Amazing sold better than any of the "satellite" books was because, in the minds of the readers, Amazing Spider-Man contained the story of Peter Parker while the others contained stories about Peter Parker. With rotating creative teams and the lack of significant character progression, I don’t see that remaining the case.

[The Shadow]

I still hold that BND was designed to sell. Everything about it screams "BUY ME!!!" As far as the interaction between creative interests and sales interests, it's simple: sales interests > creative interests.
Not to be a dick... but is that really a surprise given that Marvel is first and foremost a business?

I mean, aren't all their titles designed to sell?

[The Shadow]

I like this board because it seems to be well-moderated
Except that Mister Metts guy... he's a bit of a hardass.


and even when people have disagreements, they don't usually flame each other in personal attacks. Except in this case.
You thought THAT was personal?


My full name is Ron Ferraro and I own Nik'Lbag Comics in Pahrump, NV located at 1201 S. Hwy 160 suite 116 across from the Saddle West Casino.
I'm going to be in Vegas in the summer (if all goes as planned)... I'll look you up.


Diamond _told_ people that ASM #546 was sold out, but they had reserves for the a give-away promotion that happened this week.
I don't see how that's a problem or a lie at all. The issues were not available for retailers to order. They were, in effect, sold out except for copies alloted for a promotion.


When I uncover the details as to why Diamond was shipping free copies of ASM#546 first printings without notice or request, I will post it and let you all know / snip/ if you doubt my claim about ASM #546, check your LCS, and I will bet that they also received free first printings of it recently.
I asked my shop after I read this post yesterday and they didn't get any and as far as they knew the first printing was sold out


I can't go into any further detail, legally, on the subject of what I know or how I know it regarding that subject.
Why? Are you under a court order or in litigation against Marvel?


Before declaring anything as a success just because some sales numbers for February were released and were moderately decent (they weren't very impressive at all), an intelligent person should read between the lines. Look at the other facts available and try to see a trend or pattern.
Yes... the sales of ASM will sell more than ASM, FNSM and Sensational.


Fact: the entire comics industry noticed a significant decline starting in November of last year. This could just be the economy, it could have been somehow related to the impending writer's strike, it could have been the presidential caucuses and other national events. It could even have had something to do with the uncertain future of the Marvel and DC universes, key among Marvel's being speculation regarding Spider-man's future.
With the US economy in the shitter, the price of oil rising too fast I think those would have a more impact on sales than anything. I say this as a former store owner who went through a recession.


I don't know the full answer, but I do know that Marvel manipulated figures as best they could to "front" a positive, successful image of BND Spider-man.
How do you KNOW they did that and more importantly can you PROVE it??


Executives do this sort of thing all the time, what makes people so naive to believe that it doesn't happen in the comics industry?
While I don't doubt it at all, I do think Joe is in a better position to have all the facts than a store owner or message board poster.


The numbers have been manipulated.
Prove it.

Sorry but that's such a huge charge it's hard to take the word of one poster regardless how reputable.


The second printing was done for spin, and to have extra books to push to new readers later on, if sales started slipping.
As a business you should know that doesn't make good financial sense.


He created a schism in Spider-man fans, lost thousands of readers, and hasn't been able to replace them with enough new ones to stave off the inevitable.
Again, you don't know that for a fact.


I predict that sales will decline, steadily and substantially
As a store owner you better hope not ;)


And if what I think is true is ever proven, that Quesada doctored circulation to give the appearrance of success simply to achieve a silly personal goal, Quesada could very well lose his job over it.
Again... proof would be required. And lose his job? :rolleyes:

Will respond to the rest later... gotta get back to work.

[carabas]

Meanwhile, if the three times a month schedule was guaranteed to be successful, why the hell didn't Marvel do it years earlier?Common sense dictates that American superhero comics can't be done on a weekly schedule. They can barely be done on a monthly schedule.
It took DC with Countdown and 52 to prove that it can be done, and (with 52 at least), can de done right.

[philly]

To "The Shadow" and whomever else it may concern:

I have never been banned from any message board, though my account is relatively new. I pretty much only care about Spider-man, the character is the reason I opened my stores and got into the business. More than likely, I would not be posting here or anywhere if I weren't disappointed in the new direction that my former favorite title is going. You can probably find my "join date" as Christmas week 2007. That was the week that OMD pt. 4 was released, on Stan Lee's birthday.

I like this board because it seems to be well-moderated and even when people have disagreements, they don't usually flame each other in personal attacks. Except in this case.

I am not the type to post anonymously only to disappear into the shadows. I am fully up-front with everyone as to who I am, and I have mentioned my store on this board numerous times in the past.

My full name is Ron Ferraro and I own Nik'Lbag Comics in Pahrump, NV located at 1201 S. Hwy 160 suite 116 across from the Saddle West Casino. Before I opened this tiny little store in the middle of the desert, I owned a crummier, tinier store in Lihue, HI, also known as Nik'Lbag Comics. I have been in the business for over three years, which is not very long relative to other stores in metropolitan areas, but long enough to have learned a number of Diamond and Marvel's little tricks.

Diamond _told_ people that ASM #546 was sold out, but they had reserves for the a give-away promotion that happened this week. Diamond doesn't give away free comics, so it must have been Marvel behind the promotion. When I uncover the details as to why Diamond was shipping free copies of ASM#546 first printings without notice or request, I will post it and let you all know. It's a mystery to me, but I have strong suspicions. It wouldn't be the first time a company over-printed and gave out free books to push or promote something. Pick up the Secret Invasion Saga as proof of this. In the meantime, if you doubt my claim about ASM #546, check your LCS, and I will bet that they also received free first printings of it recently.

As to warehouses, I was referring to Diamond, of course, not Marvel, but in essence, Diamond's warehouses ARE Marvels, and DC's, and Images, etc. The whole of the comics industry is guilty of collusion, and has been getting away with it for years.

I can't go into any further detail, legally, on the subject of what I know or how I know it regarding that subject. All I can offer is my credentials and hope that a reasonable person would listen to what I suggest and dig further on the matter. Prove me wrong, if you think you can, or offer evidence that contradicts my theories.

Before declaring anything as a success just because some sales numbers for February were released and were moderately decent (they weren't very impressive at all), an intelligent person should read between the lines. Look at the other facts available and try to see a trend or pattern.

Fact: the entire comics industry noticed a significant decline starting in November of last year. This could just be the economy, it could have been somehow related to the impending writer's strike, it could have been the presidential caucuses and other national events. It could even have had something to do with the uncertain future of the Marvel and DC universes, key among Marvel's being speculation regarding Spider-man's future. I don't know the full answer, but I do know that Marvel manipulated figures as best they could to "front" a positive, successful image of BND Spider-man.

Some of you like it, and that's great, because you are buying and reading comics, which I strongly support. I'm not a big fan of this new thing, and I know that a tremendous number of other people agree with me. Quesada has been trying to put "spin" on this, fudge the numbers where he can, to be able to claim success, even if it results in a Phyrric victory. Executives do this sort of thing all the time, what makes people so naive to believe that it doesn't happen in the comics industry?

The numbers have been manipulated. The second printing was done for spin, and to have extra books to push to new readers later on, if sales started slipping. Quesada is playing for keeps here, and he will use whatever means necessary to make this single Spider-man permanent. He created a schism in Spider-man fans, lost thousands of readers, and hasn't been able to replace them with enough new ones to stave off the inevitable. I predict that sales will decline, steadily and substantially, until the three times monthly shipping and free give-aways can no longer disguise the hard truth that the idea was ill-founded and unnecessary.

And if what I think is true is ever proven, that Quesada doctored circulation to give the appearrance of success simply to achieve a silly personal goal, Quesada could very well lose his job over it.

There would be a mess, not just from a fan-schism, but from an advertising standpoint. Without money from advertising, comics would cost upwards of $10 each. Look at the rate of inflation if you think I am lying. Comics should be only about $2 each right now, if the ad sales were there like they used to be. But advertising dollars don't flow in when circulation is down, so Marvel prints limited series and tie-ins and everything they can to get the most books out there and boost circulation. There is also the idea of proliferation to win shelf-space. They print books all the time that they know they will lose money on, but if those books help them maintain market share, the stock profits make the risk worth printing those books.

Shadow, I am not blowing steam here and making stuff up. These are complicated business strategies perfected over decades and enacted at the highest level of the industry. I'm not just some maniac screaming conspiracy here. This is what comics companies do. You can disagree with my thoughts, that's fine. But don't make baseless accusations of me being a phony or a banned former poster or some other such nonsense.

I am a comic store owner who is disillusioned by the shenanigans perpetrated by the industry leader's EiC because it directly affects my business, my livelihood and of course, my favorite hobby.

Thanks for your input, its good to know that.

[The Shadow]

Common sense dictates that American superhero comics can't be done on a weekly schedule.
It took DC with Countdown and 52 to prove that it can be done, and (with 52 at least), can de done right.

You contradict yourself... you say common sense says it can't be done and then you give two examples of it being done and you even admit one was done well. ASM is another example of a nearly weekly being done and Trinity is set to go when Countdown is done. And "well is, of course, subjective.

So which is it?

I think common sense says a Joss Whedon-John Cassaday comic wouldn't work weekly... but Marvel and DC are proving it is quite possible if you have the right creative teams going.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Not to be a dick... but is that really a surprise given that Marvel is first and foremost a business?

I mean, aren't all their titles designed to sell?



Except Black Panther. That book is basically there to prove some point ...because its sales suck and its tie-ins and big event has since fizzled.

[DaeJi]

Not to be a dick... but is that really a surprise given that Marvel is first and foremost a business?

I mean, aren't all their titles designed to sell?

Oh, I agree and am not against the practice. I was just arguing that most of the selling points about BND are not creative decisions, but business ones so that the book is all but guaranteed to sell.

[DeadXMan]

Except Black Panther. That book is basically there to prove some point ...because its sales suck and its tie-ins and big event has since fizzled.




That's because they have a terrible writer on BP.

[Mister Mets]

Except Black Panther. That book is basically there to prove some point ...because its sales suck and its tie-ins and big event has since fizzled.It's a B-list character without any "name" creators, and it's no longer tied to any major event. It's selling okay for Marvel, especially considering that in February it had two comics in the Top 100, including an annual. Sales are comparable to She-Hulk and Ms Marvel, both of which are better received, and include more popular writers.

Marvel's still making a decent bit of money from the book, which also has the advantage of appealing to individuals who aren't the typical comic book fans.

[carabas]

You contradict yourself... you say common sense says it can't be done and then you give two examples of it being done and you even admit one was done well.
Common sense dictates that weekly superheros can't be done. Everybody has basically assumed this to be true for decades. Until DC proved the hypothesis to be false by doing 52 and Countdown,leding Marvel to steal 52's edotor away and putting him on Brandnew Day.


ASM is another example of a nearly weekly being done and Trinity is set to go when Countdown is done. And "well is, of course, subjective.

So which is it?There is no contradiction, only misunderstanding.


I think common sense says a Joss Whedon-John Cassaday comic wouldn't work weekly... but Marvel and DC are proving it is quite possible if you have the right creative teams going.Which is exactly what I said in the post you were responding to, except with less pointing out the obvious.

[carabas]

I mean, aren't all their titles designed to sell?I'm sure some are desigend to broaden market share, keep A-list creative teams happy, protect a copyright...

[The Shadow]

Except Black Panther. That book is basically there to prove some point ...because its sales suck and its tie-ins and big event has since fizzled.

LMAO :D :D

OK... isn't the point of any title BUT Black Panther to sell?

[The Shadow]

Oh, I agree and am not against the practice. I was just arguing that most of the selling points about BND are not creative decisions, but business ones so that the book is all but guaranteed to sell.
Again though (sorry) isn't that the point of what a business does?

You put a Greg Horn cover on an Emma Frost issue to sell a book. That's a selling point and not a creative decision. You put Wolverine in the new X-Force... same thing.

here's a reason why books like the Defenders don't sell; they don't have enough pull with the characters unless you put Loeb and Jim Lee on it... but that's a selling point and not a creative decision.

The promise of introducing new villains into Spidey is a selling point. Bob Gale is a selling point. Dan Slott and Steve McNiven are selling points. Looking back at the introduction of the original Hobgoblin... he was introduced slowly and his appearances were special... which was a selling point because people would buy the issues to see his next appearance.

In the end ALL decisions are selling points. The creativity is a bonus. When you get a great writer and artist on a book we luck out... but they are there and telling stories to sell issues.

What are some EXCLUSIVELY creative decisions you can think of?

[DaeJi]

Again though (sorry) isn't that the point of what a business does?

I was arguing against the notion that many of the things about BND were a creative decision rather than a business one. You're trying to argue against me using my own point :confused:. You're agreeing with me without realizing it.

[The Shadow]

You're trying to argue against me using my own point :confused:.

........... yes................... yes I am......................... :o

:cool:

[carabas]

In the end ALL decisions are selling points. The creativity is a bonus. When you get a great writer and artist on a book we luck out... but they are there and telling stories to sell issues.

What are some EXCLUSIVELY creative decisions you can think of?You're hollowing out the term selling point. If using old villains like Osborn, dock Ock and Venom are a selling point (and they are), and using new villains is also a selling point, the trem selling point stops having any meaning.


You put a Greg Horn cover on an Emma Frost issue to sell a book.Definitely not a creative decision. The book was aimed at the (pretty much non-existant, but Jemas was nothing if not optimistic) female audience. Story and interior artreflected that. The gratuitous T&A covers kinda were actually a handicap for the book in reaching its target audience.

[Just a Shadow]

You're hollowing out the term selling point. If using old villains like Osborn, dock Ock and Venom are a selling point (and they are), and using new villains is also a selling point, the trem selling point stops having any meaning.



Actually, it doesn't necessarily mean that selling point doesn't have any meaning. If true, it could simply point to the choice of villains (at least when choosing between brand new villains and established ones) not having an affect on how the book sells, thus not being a selling point.

[ronnieramone]

Shadow,

You know as well as I do, that I can't provide the kind of 'smoking gun' proof that you are looking for. I'm basically a peon in the comics industry, completely powerless to affect anything on a larger scale than simply 'nudging' a customer toward this book or that book when they ask me what's good. It sounds like your claim of having been a comic store owner that went through a recession is believable to a reasonable person. I have no way of verifying it nor do I require verification. I don't see why you need this from me.

If you look me up when you are in Vegas, I won't be in the Vegas yellow pages because I am out in Pahrump, about fifty miles outside of Vegas. If you drive out to Death Valley on your visit, however, you'll find me on Highway 160 across from the Saddle West Casino. You can also check Wizards of the Coast's website, since my store is a WotC Premier store and I will be running the Dungeons of Dread D&D mini Pre-release this coming weekend on March 29. I should be listed on their "find a store" page. If Diamond didn't charge a retarded fee for being listed in the "Comic Store Locator" service, you'd be able to find me in that too. I protest, however, against a fee involved for what is essentially a directory designed to help people find comics to buy. It should be free to all retailers, especially considering we each spend tens of thousands of dollars or more per year already with Diamond.

Anyway, I'm getting sidetracked because there is so much about this industry that is illogical and stupid that I can't nail it all down as succinctly as I'd like to be able to do.

Fact is: Diamond sent me 8 free copies of ASM #546 first printings last week, with no charge and no explanation. Where did they come from? We all thought they were sold out. This is proof, to me, that they were not sold out, as was previously believed. I could scan the Diamond invoice form and provide photos of the comics, if you'd like. Would that be enough proof? Do you require photos of my store as well?

I don't know why they sent free copies of ASM #546. I don't know where they came from, if they were supposedly sold out. I have a very strong reason to believe, based on what I saw last week, that they were not sold out at all, but were reserved instead for a low-key promotion based on ASM re-orders, since I actually ordered 2 copies of ASM #546 second printings and paid for them, as well as 6 other various back issues of ASM as customer requests. So I re-ordered 8 ASM books, including 2 copies of ASM#546 second printings (since the first were supposedly sold out and not available for re-order) and then mysteriously received 8 copies of ASM #546 first-prints for free. These weren't put in the boxes by mistake, either, they were listed on the invoice as $0.00 each. Now, why would I order 2 ASM #546 second printings if I knew I was getting a bunch of first printings for free? I wouldn't. So this must be some sort of secret promotion, presumably based on re-orders of ASM, possibly in order to boost sales of ASM back-issues. A cunning tactic designed to promote ASM in the long-term, making many copies available to potential new readers while simultaneously "rewarding" retailers who re-ordered ASM books from the past couple months.

The end result, of course, is that it looks like more copies of ASM #546 sold than actually did, which means that sales figures for that book are artificially high. Also, if comic stores are getting free books, it's a great way to drive up sales on subsequent issues if for every one you re-order you also get a free book. I can only assume, based on your query at your LCS, that that store placed no re-orders on ASM books recently if they received no free books. I can also infer from this, that they likely didn't sell out of subsequent issues, and thus had no reason to place a re-order. If they are not selling out, well that means the book isn't selling well, and they will likely lower their orders the following month.

I'm not making huge jumps in reasoning, here. This is the comics world. Companies do this all the time. There are risks and costs in any promotion, and a huge chunk of this business is the proliferation of product. Get as many of your books out in the marketplace as possible, to take up space that could be used by your competitors if you're not there. This is not unlike America Online sending out mass mailings of CDs to everyone in the country to promote their service. Secret Invasion Saga was a recent free comic given out at stores to promote the upcoming "event." Diamond was selling entire bundles of this comic to shops for a mere five bucks. Do you think that Marvel made money on that? No, they did it to generate excitement for the Secret Invasion, which they will make money on. Hell, the comic industry has an entire made-up holiday dedicated to giving away free comics at huge losses in the hope of attracting new readers.

I know from experience, based on the evidence I have seen, that Marvel is probably doing similar things with ASM. The trick is, if people find out the truth, that BND isn't the huge success that Marvel is making it out to be, Quesada's credibility will be in the toilet.

Yes, I have been involved in a legal matter that I can't discuss. And yes, it's true that I'm not unbiased on the issue of BND. I admit that I don't like this new direction, and I think it's all a sham. But my bias, thinking it's sales are a hoax or a fraud, doesn't mean that they aren't. It's kind of like the old saying, "just because I'm paranoid, it doesn't mean they aren't out to get me."

I see these numbers and I am skeptical. I look at the numer of people who are still posting online against BND and I am downright suspicious. Something is going on here. I don't have all the facts, it's true, and I don't have much to go on, but I look at the editor's statements about positive letters he is getting now, and I see how careful he is not to mention how many are positive versus how many are negative. They simply talk about the positive feedback. I mean, you wouldn't want to advertise your product with negative reviews and comments, so of course they focus on the positives. But I wonder how long the facade will hold. How long will Quesada's spin be able to keep the dreaded marriage at bay? As long as Bush's administration has kept us in Iraq? Sorry, that was too political, I know, I just couldn't resist.

Looking at February's sales figures, I see decent numbers now but also a clear decline in sales. If the decline continues for several months, we will have a mess here that is difficult to resolve. Based on the evidence at stores, the evidently sparse number of re-orders for ASM, the sustained backlash in online forums, and of course the current economic recession, I think we will see sales dropping in the coming months. Only time will tell. I see evidence that suggests that the BND damage control and "spin" involved a manipulation of sales figures. If it is true, it may not be illegal, but it would certainly be unethical. I don't need to prove my case, though. This is not a trial and I'm not here to prove it. I'm only here to "voice" it, and perhaps get others to think and question things a little more.

I think it's great that you doubt me and my information; it shows that you are intelligent and vigilant against phonies and scams. Now, hopefully, you'll verify my identity and authenticity, realize that I am a legitimate store owner with (albeit limited) inside information and turn your vast debunking potential instead to Marvel and its deceptive promotional tactics. If I find any more evidence or information at all, I will be sure to post it.

[ronnieramone]

I'm sure some are desigend to broaden market share, keep A-list creative teams happy, protect a copyright...

Great insight, there carabas. Comic companies absolutely print books that they know will not sell well in order to accomplish some other goal.

Just like I didn't need to post this since I didn't really add anything to what you said...

... but I did it to boost my post count and earn brownie points with Shadow!

See the ulterior motive at work?

[philly]

Shadow,

You know as well as I do, that I can't provide the kind of 'smoking gun' proof that you are looking for. I'm basically a peon in the comics industry, completely powerless to affect anything on a larger scale than simply 'nudging' a customer toward this book or that book when they ask me what's good. It sounds like your claim of having been a comic store owner that went through a recession is believable to a reasonable person. I have no way of verifying it nor do I require verification. I don't see why you need this from me.

If you look me up when you are in Vegas, I won't be in the Vegas yellow pages because I am out in Pahrump, about fifty miles outside of Vegas. If you drive out to Death Valley on your visit, however, you'll find me on Highway 160 across from the Saddle West Casino. You can also check Wizards of the Coast's website, since my store is a WotC Premier store and I will be running the Dungeons of Dread D&D mini Pre-release this coming weekend on March 29. I should be listed on their "find a store" page. If Diamond didn't charge a retarded fee for being listed in the "Comic Store Locator" service, you'd be able to find me in that too. I protest, however, against a fee involved for what is essentially a directory designed to help people find comics to buy. It should be free to all retailers, especially considering we each spend tens of thousands of dollars or more per year already with Diamond.

Anyway, I'm getting sidetracked because there is so much about this industry that is illogical and stupid that I can't nail it all down as succinctly as I'd like to be able to do.

Fact is: Diamond sent me 8 free copies of ASM #546 first printings last week, with no charge and no explanation. Where did they come from? We all thought they were sold out. This is proof, to me, that they were not sold out, as was previously believed. I could scan the Diamond invoice form and provide photos of the comics, if you'd like. Would that be enough proof? Do you require photos of my store as well?

I don't know why they sent free copies of ASM #546. I don't know where they came from, if they were supposedly sold out. I have a very strong reason to believe, based on what I saw last week, that they were not sold out at all, but were reserved instead for a low-key promotion based on ASM re-orders, since I actually ordered 2 copies of ASM #546 second printings and paid for them, as well as 6 other various back issues of ASM as customer requests. So I re-ordered 8 ASM books, including 2 copies of ASM#546 second printings (since the first were supposedly sold out and not available for re-order) and then mysteriously received 8 copies of ASM #546 first-prints for free. These weren't put in the boxes by mistake, either, they were listed on the invoice as $0.00 each. Now, why would I order 2 ASM #546 second printings if I knew I was getting a bunch of first printings for free? I wouldn't. So this must be some sort of secret promotion, presumably based on re-orders of ASM, possibly in order to boost sales of ASM back-issues. A cunning tactic designed to promote ASM in the long-term, making many copies available to potential new readers while simultaneously "rewarding" retailers who re-ordered ASM books from the past couple months.

The end result, of course, is that it looks like more copies of ASM #546 sold than actually did, which means that sales figures for that book are artificially high. Also, if comic stores are getting free books, it's a great way to drive up sales on subsequent issues if for every one you re-order you also get a free book. I can only assume, based on your query at your LCS, that that store placed no re-orders on ASM books recently if they received no free books. I can also infer from this, that they likely didn't sell out of subsequent issues, and thus had no reason to place a re-order. If they are not selling out, well that means the book isn't selling well, and they will likely lower their orders the following month.

I'm not making huge jumps in reasoning, here. This is the comics world. Companies do this all the time. There are risks and costs in any promotion, and a huge chunk of this business is the proliferation of product. Get as many of your books out in the marketplace as possible, to take up space that could be used by your competitors if you're not there. This is not unlike America Online sending out mass mailings of CDs to everyone in the country to promote their service. Secret Invasion Saga was a recent free comic given out at stores to promote the upcoming "event." Diamond was selling entire bundles of this comic to shops for a mere five bucks. Do you think that Marvel made money on that? No, they did it to generate excitement for the Secret Invasion, which they will make money on. Hell, the comic industry has an entire made-up holiday dedicated to giving away free comics at huge losses in the hope of attracting new readers.

I know from experience, based on the evidence I have seen, that Marvel is probably doing similar things with ASM. The trick is, if people find out the truth, that BND isn't the huge success that Marvel is making it out to be, Quesada's credibility will be in the toilet.

Yes, I have been involved in a legal matter that I can't discuss. And yes, it's true that I'm not unbiased on the issue of BND. I admit that I don't like this new direction, and I think it's all a sham. But my bias, thinking it's sales are a hoax or a fraud, doesn't mean that they aren't. It's kind of like the old saying, "just because I'm paranoid, it doesn't mean they aren't out to get me."

I see these numbers and I am skeptical. I look at the numer of people who are still posting online against BND and I am downright suspicious. Something is going on here. I don't have all the facts, it's true, and I don't have much to go on, but I look at the editor's statements about positive letters he is getting now, and I see how careful he is not to mention how many are positive versus how many are negative. They simply talk about the positive feedback. I mean, you wouldn't want to advertise your product with negative reviews and comments, so of course they focus on the positives. But I wonder how long the facade will hold. How long will Quesada's spin be able to keep the dreaded marriage at bay? As long as Bush's administration has kept us in Iraq? Sorry, that was too political, I know, I just couldn't resist.

Looking at February's sales figures, I see decent numbers now but also a clear decline in sales. If the decline continues for several months, we will have a mess here that is difficult to resolve. Based on the evidence at stores, the evidently sparse number of re-orders for ASM, the sustained backlash in online forums, and of course the current economic recession, I think we will see sales dropping in the coming months. Only time will tell. I see evidence that suggests that the BND damage control and "spin" involved a manipulation of sales figures. If it is true, it may not be illegal, but it would certainly be unethical. I don't need to prove my case, though. This is not a trial and I'm not here to prove it. I'm only here to "voice" it, and perhaps get others to think and question things a little more.

I think it's great that you doubt me and my information; it shows that you are intelligent and vigilant against phonies and scams. Now, hopefully, you'll verify my identity and authenticity, realize that I am a legitimate store owner with (albeit limited) inside information and turn your vast debunking potential instead to Marvel and its deceptive promotional tactics. If I find any more evidence or information at all, I will be sure to post it.


You raise a lot of good points and i thank you for doing that. its does make you question what is really going on.

[jeffgamer]

According to ICv2 (http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/12244.html) just 88,000 for ASM #551.

Can BND be considered a success if it's selling more issues of one title (three per month) but selling to fewer readers than were around pre-OMD?


There are different definitions of success and failure at work here. IF...and it's a big if, given some of the question Ron and others have raised...but IF the current sales numbers are accurate, the number of total books of ASM sold per month still exceeds the number of books sold per month when they were three different titles instead of three of the same. That's one definition of success. Of course, we don't know if that will continue. Next month's figures (March's) will be the first to reflect in-store cancellations from pull lists post-OMD...who knows WHAT they'll look like?

And there are other numbers to consider as well. For one thing, Marvel is charging less per issue to subscribers than they did...profitability is less per issue on average. This may negate any financial gain that the three-per-month has achieved.

There are fewer distinct individuals reading ASM now than before, and we haven't yet seen the extent of that exodus. That's a definite loss. The bleeding away of a large chunk of your customer base is one definition of failure.

Another question is how much collateral damage there is. For instance, I did not just cancel Amazing Spider-man in reaction to this. I cancelled MOST of my Marvel titles. Numerous others have done likewise. Sales of other titles are dipping, too, and while one partial explanation might be "recession" and another "annual trends", it's also very likely that some of that loss is due to people leaving other Marvel titles, which means that the sales figures for Amazing Spider-man may only give an inkling of the damage that Marvel may be incurring. Erik Larsen even spoke about that danger before OMD erased Spider-man's history...he posted a well-written opinion article that, in part, expressed his concern that ANYTHING that is causing a significant chunk of comic book readers to say they will drop titles will hurt the entire business, including his own. We may be witnessing just that.

And then there's the loss of committment and trust from the remaining readers. Unlike me, a number of readers decided that BND was on probation for them...they've given it a read-through. I've been seeing an increasing number of posters saying that it just hasn't been enough to keep them reading. These are people whose committment to Marvel and/or Spider-man was shaken by the editorial rewrite of history, and some of them have found that they no longer have the unwavering loyalty they once had. Some have been additionally turned off by the arrogance and dismissive attitude that several Marvel editors and creative team members have displayed toward their previously-committed customers. And others are slowly walking away because they no longer trust that anything matters in the Marvel Universe. Marvel used to be respected for its adherence to continuity, to its forward movement, and for a number of readers that trust is gone. The loss of client respect, trust, and committment is one definition of failure, because while they may continue to purchase some of your product, they no longer can be relied upon as a continual source of revenue.

[black_spidey728]

I really want to thank Ron for his insight. Since BND started, we've all been going back and forth saying what's happening at our LCS's. It was refreshing to hear from an actual LCS owner who gave us the low down.

And props to jeffgamer for letting the Marvel messageboard know about this.

[philly]

I really want to thank Ron for his insight. Since BND started, we've all been going back and forth saying what's happening at our LCS's. It was refreshing to hear from an actual LCS owner who gave us the low down.

And props to jeffgamer for letting the Marvel messageboard know about this.

I agree, great post.:)

[ReggieWhiteJr]

I agree, great post.:)

I concur. I know jeffgamer from the Crawl Space message boards so he always has good stuff to say in his posts.

Ron, I'd like to thank you for your thoughts and inputs. It really is nice to hear from a comic shop owner what is going on concerning sales for Amazing Spider-Man after OMD. I'm really interested in how March and April's sales numbers will look.

[Baron Banter]

Amazing is selling at Midtown: http://www.midtowncomics.com/Neshop/top25.asp?crypt=HPcog%253F%2528NPcog%253F%2528Wugt KF%253F%253B8342%253B29%253A%2528WutPcog%253F%2528 WutV%257Brg%253F%2528WutNgxgn%253F#954777

at #5 and #6 currently in the top 25 sellers. I'd say since that's actual sales instead of retailer orders, that's pretty good.

[BlackToe]

Amazing is selling at Midtown: http://www.midtowncomics.com/Neshop/top25.asp?crypt=HPcog%253F%2528NPcog%253F%2528Wugt KF%253F%253B8342%253B29%253A%2528WutPcog%253F%2528 WutV%257Brg%253F%2528WutNgxgn%253F#954777

at #5 and #6 currently in the top 25 sellers. I'd say since that's actual sales instead of retailer orders, that's pretty good.

Those are actual sales? If they are, then thats not bad.

[The Shadow]

Marvel is charging less per issue to subscribers than they did...profitability is less per issue on average. This may negate any financial gain that the three-per-month has achieved.
But the cover prices are higher at newsstands now. So there's a balancing factor there you either ignored or didn't know about.


There are fewer distinct individuals reading ASM now than before, and we haven't yet seen the extent of that exodus.
How do you know that for a fact?


Another question is how much collateral damage there is. For instance, I did not just cancel Amazing Spider-man in reaction to this. I cancelled MOST of my Marvel titles.
The sad thing is Marvel really isn't going to know that. They'll just see sales dropping on low selling, yet great books like Iron Fist and they will cancel it.


Sales of other titles are dipping, too, and while one partial explanation might be "recession" and another "annual trends", it's also very likely that some of that loss is due to people leaving other Marvel titles, which means that the sales figures for Amazing Spider-man may only give an inkling of the damage that Marvel may be incurring.
If it were ONLY Marvel books that were dipping and those increases were being seen elsewhere I would agree but it's DC and Image and Dark Horse all dropping too.

Which is why I think it's more an industry event than just Marvel. IIRC there were only 4 or 5 books over 100,000 this month and none topped 106,000.


Erik Larsen even spoke about that danger before OMD erased Spider-man's history...he posted a well-written opinion article that, in part, expressed his concern that ANYTHING that is causing a significant chunk of comic book readers to say they will drop titles will hurt the entire business, including his own. We may be witnessing just that.
Why would Spider-Man effect the industry? I mean, isn't that an opportunity for books like Savage dragon to try and grab some of those dollars that are now available? Every bad thing can be an opportunity too.

As I said above, if the sales were appearing elsewhere you would have a point but I think tough times mean $3.00 books get dropped in favor of food and shelter first.

[DaeJi]

Amazing is selling at Midtown: http://www.midtowncomics.com/Neshop/top25.asp?crypt=HPcog%253F%2528NPcog%253F%2528Wugt KF%253F%253B8342%253B29%253A%2528WutPcog%253F%2528 WutV%257Brg%253F%2528WutNgxgn%253F#954777

at #5 and #6 currently in the top 25 sellers. I'd say since that's actual sales instead of retailer orders, that's pretty good.

Maybe Marvel has gone all Scientology on us, and Joe Q and the writers and artists working on BND have sent in people to buy up the book in doves to make it look like a success!!! :p

[DeadXMan]

wait, hasn't charging less on subscriptions been a long standing practice on all newspapers and Magazines?

[Tetsuo_man]

Joey q does seem lik an type to be a head of a cult. hm....

[The Shadow]

wait, hasn't charging less on subscriptions been a long standing practice on all newspapers and Magazines?
I believe so.

It's nothing new.

[philly]

Amazing is selling at Midtown: http://www.midtowncomics.com/Neshop/top25.asp?crypt=HPcog%253F%2528NPcog%253F%2528Wugt KF%253F%253B8342%253B29%253A%2528WutPcog%253F%2528 WutV%257Brg%253F%2528WutNgxgn%253F#954777

at #5 and #6 currently in the top 25 sellers. I'd say since that's actual sales instead of retailer orders, that's pretty good.

Considering that the top selling book they have is a free comic book, that's not much of accomplishment. I think its about the most popular books in their store, not sales per say.

[Brand]

wait, hasn't charging less on subscriptions been a long standing practice on all newspapers and Magazines?

Absolutely. Marvel already gives a discount on any subscriptions over the regular price per issue (I believe a subscription for a single title is around $22.00-24.00, and the price goes down if a person subscribes to more than one title at a time). However, Marvel offered even a BIGGER discount on ASM subscriptions after OMD was finished. I know that I received a sheet with OMD part 4 where I was given the option of keeping my subscription, upgrading to a year of ASM for the cheaper-per-issue price, or dropping the book altogether. For me, it wasn't a hard decision. :p

[Baron Banter]

Considering that the top selling book they have is a free comic book, that's not much of accomplishment. I think its about the most popular books in their store, not sales per say.
Customers still have to put in the cart by clicking the BUY NOW button. I'm sure its a computer keeping track of what's actually being bought

Now ASM is 6, 7, and 11.

[Red Lotus]

true, but money is money. and if fewer readers of one book are willing to buy more than more readers of 3 books, its still financially a good move. The question is will it last.

I agree. I have said that Joe Q was pretty smart by putting the book out 3x a month. Yeah i think it will last. Because if you want to read Spider-man in the 616 this is the book you have to get.

[ronnieramone]

I can safely and certainly declare that there was, in fact, a Marvel promotion to give away free copies of Amazing Spider-man #546 first printings, the "Brand New Day Starts Here!" arc. Diamond confirmed it to me over the phone today. I have no idea how many were given away in total, but my store received 8. I am a smaller retailer, so I can guess that many other stores probably received much more than I did. How many in total, I cannot say definitively, but it would probably be several thousand. They DID go to a second printing prematurely to get positive press, and first printings are still readily available for re-order along with the second printings.

http://www.niklbag.com/ASM546-1.jpg

http://www.niklbag.com/ASM546-2.jpg

Naturally, sales on ASM still appear decent on subsequent issues, but they are definitely declining. Perhaps Slott's return will halt the decline, but there's no way to say for sure yet. Since Brand New Day is not much of an "event" and it is very expensive to follow at 3x monthly, those factors could be as much to blame for slipping sales per issue as the marriage controversy. Also, the marriage controversy could be the exact thing that propelled the books at first, and once the novelty of single Spidey wears off, sales could decline sharply.

Comic manufacturers, especially Marvel, have been proven to exhibit "locust-like" attacks on their customers' wallets in the past, and this amped-up schedule is no exception. Trying to scoop more dollars from a shrinking customer base is a REALLY bad trend in this business and we saw in the 90's that it can lead to disaster. Doing it in order to "cover-up" the consequences of a questionable decision that may have caused a shrinkage of the customer base in the first place is extremely short-sighted. Misleading the public into thinking something is selling well in order to disguise or mitigate failure and save yourself embarrassment? That's underhanded and downright predatory.

[ShaggyB]

no wonder i can get 30% off at my local store, he gets them atleast 50% off, and hell by what im reading there Warth was 50c.

I so want my own store. Perhaps one day.

[Matt Linton]

I can safely and certainly declare that there was, in fact, a Marvel promotion to give away free copies of Amazing Spider-man #546 first printings, the "Brand New Day Starts Here!" arc. Diamond confirmed it to me over the phone today. I have no idea how many were given away in total, but my store received 8. I am a smaller retailer, so I can guess that many other stores probably received much more than I did. How many in total, I cannot say definitively, but it would probably be several thousand. They DID go to a second printing prematurely to get positive press, and first printings are still readily available for re-order along with the second printings.

http://www.niklbag.com/ASM546-1.jpg

http://www.niklbag.com/ASM546-2.jpg

Naturally, sales on ASM still appear decent on subsequent issues, but they are definitely declining. Perhaps Slott's return will halt the decline, but there's no way to say for sure yet. Since Brand New Day is not much of an "event" and it is very expensive to follow at 3x monthly, those factors could be as much to blame for slipping sales per issue as the marriage controversy. Also, the marriage controversy could be the exact thing that propelled the books at first, and once the novelty of single Spidey wears off, sales could decline sharply.

Comic manufacturers, especially Marvel, have been proven to exhibit "locust-like" attacks on their customers' wallets in the past, and this amped-up schedule is no exception. Trying to scoop more dollars from a shrinking customer base is a REALLY bad trend in this business and we saw in the 90's that it can lead to disaster. Doing it in order to "cover-up" the consequences of a questionable decision that may have caused a shrinkage of the customer base in the first place is extremely short-sighted. Misleading the public into thinking something is selling well in order to disguise or mitigate failure and save yourself embarrassment? That's underhanded and downright predatory.

I'm sorry, but let me see if I've got this straight:

You're complaining that Marvel gave you FREE comics that you can then SELL for a profit.

[ronnieramone]

Shaggy... your store owner does not necessarily get 50% off. In order to get 50% off, you have to purchase over $1,400 in exclusively Marvel product every month for at least a year. It took me a good long time to get past 35%, and I was at 45% for a great deal longer, plus it costs at least 10% in shipping, which is never free...

Bottom line: in order to get discounts on comics, you have to subscribe to the system, which forces you to buy more books than you may necessarily want to buy or be able to sell. The volume-based system is a good reason why ASM will remain relatively high, numbers-wise. Smaller retailers like myself have to buy _something_ in order to maintain our discount plateaus, so you try to order more of the things that have long-term sales potential, like Spider-man or X-Men. It's all just math. If you spend thousands every month anyway, then yeah, you might as well open your own store.

Otherwise... FOR THE LOVE OF GOD SPARE YOURSELF THE AGONY!!!!

[ronnieramone]

I am not complaining about receiving free books.

You have to be able to look at the bigger picture here. Do you really think I care about 8 free books? Please. If (and it's a HUGE if) I can sell them all, I'll make a $31.92 profit. I've already lost two to three times that much on One More Day, which incidentally wasn't marketed to retailers honestly. We had no proof what was going to happen for certain until the book released. Where was Marvel_b0y then I ask?

The point is that Marvel is misleading people into thinking their books are selling better than they really are. It's a short-term promotion that has long-term consequences. Retailers think, oh this is a big deal, I better order up on these. Then they don't sell, but the issues come out in January and February, which are traditionally slow sales months so you already have a cash flow problem and now you're further upside down and Marvel keeps blowing smoke up your ass that this is selling HUGE and needs to go to a second printing. Then months later you get a bunch of free books that you already paid for when they were new and are still stuck with. Why the Hell did retailers pay for them in the first place if they were going to be given away free later on?

Marvel LIED to retailers. They lied to fans, creating further controversy. Giving away a few free books doesn't make it okay to practice these sort of deceptive marketing techniques. These manipulations do more damage than a few free books can fix.

[Will.S]

I am not complaining about receiving free books.

You have to be able to look at the bigger picture here. Do you really think I care about 8 free books? Please. If (and it's a HUGE if) I can sell them all, I'll make a $31.92 profit. I've already lost two to three times that much on One More Day, which incidentally wasn't marketed to retailers honestly. We had no proof what was going to happen for certain until the book released. Where was Marvel_b0y then I ask?

The point is that Marvel is misleading people into thinking their books are selling better than they really are. It's a short-term promotion that has long-term consequences. Retailers think, oh this is a big deal, I better order up on these. Then they don't sell, but the issues come out in January and February, which are traditionally slow sales months so you already have a cash flow problem and now you're further upside down and Marvel keeps blowing smoke up your ass that this is selling HUGE and needs to go to a second printing. Then months later you get a bunch of free books that you already paid for when they were new and are still stuck with. Why the Hell did retailers pay for them in the first place if they were going to be given away free later on?

Marvel LIED to retailers. They lied to fans, creating further controversy. Giving away a few free books doesn't make it okay to practice these sort of deceptive marketing techniques. These manipulations do more damage than a few free books can fix.
As good as your data and proof are, unfortunately there aren't a whole lot of people who will look into it with as much depth as you have. All people really care about is whether the books are good or not and it certainly varies around here.

Marvel's going to market BND as a success no matter what really goes down. It's somewhat futile to fight it although I'm certainly intrigued by your info from the perspective of a retailer. If anything it 's pretty telling how hard they've been pushing the product in lieu of OMD's crappyness.

[Matt Linton]

I am not complaining about receiving free books.

You have to be able to look at the bigger picture here. Do you really think I care about 8 free books? Please. If (and it's a HUGE if) I can sell them all, I'll make a $31.92 profit. I've already lost two to three times that much on One More Day, which incidentally wasn't marketed to retailers honestly. We had no proof what was going to happen for certain until the book released. Where was Marvel_b0y then I ask?

The point is that Marvel is misleading people into thinking their books are selling better than they really are. It's a short-term promotion that has long-term consequences. Retailers think, oh this is a big deal, I better order up on these. Then they don't sell, but the issues come out in January and February, which are traditionally slow sales months so you already have a cash flow problem and now you're further upside down and Marvel keeps blowing smoke up your ass that this is selling HUGE and needs to go to a second printing. Then months later you get a bunch of free books that you already paid for when they were new and are still stuck with. Why the Hell did retailers pay for them in the first place if they were going to be given away free later on?

Marvel LIED to retailers. They lied to fans, creating further controversy. Giving away a few free books doesn't make it okay to practice these sort of deceptive marketing techniques. These manipulations do more damage than a few free books can fix.

Given how many folks online were able to predict how One More Day was going to play out pretty early on, I find it hard to believe that retailers were caught off-guard by it. Not to mention you'd think that if Marvel lied to retailers, as you claim, there'd be a huge public outcry about it from many of the retailers online.

As to whether you can sell the 8 free copies, and how much of a profit you'd make, the fact is, any amount that you sell it for is a profit. And that's just if you take a short-term approach and sell it for regular price. You could also either sell it as a discount to readers who are on the fence about Spider-Man, or weren't buying the book before or after OMD, in the hopes that they'll like it enough to pick up the rest of the BND issues.

And I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make about their giving away promotional copies of something that you paid for earlier. Do you ever discount the comics that you sell? Put them in a dollar box or something like that? Well, what about all of those customers that paid for a copy at full price when it first came out?

Marvel sold out of the allotted copies of the first printing of BND. They made a certain number of those available for sale initially, sold out of those, then went to a second printing. The fact that they had a supply that was available for promotional purposes later on doesn't mean they were deceiving anyone.

[philly]

I can safely and certainly declare that there was, in fact, a Marvel promotion to give away free copies of Amazing Spider-man #546 first printings, the "Brand New Day Starts Here!" arc. Diamond confirmed it to me over the phone today. I have no idea how many were given away in total, but my store received 8. I am a smaller retailer, so I can guess that many other stores probably received much more than I did. How many in total, I cannot say definitively, but it would probably be several thousand. They DID go to a second printing prematurely to get positive press, and first printings are still readily available for re-order along with the second printings.

http://www.niklbag.com/ASM546-1.jpg

http://www.niklbag.com/ASM546-2.jpg

Naturally, sales on ASM still appear decent on subsequent issues, but they are definitely declining. Perhaps Slott's return will halt the decline, but there's no way to say for sure yet. Since Brand New Day is not much of an "event" and it is very expensive to follow at 3x monthly, those factors could be as much to blame for slipping sales per issue as the marriage controversy. Also, the marriage controversy could be the exact thing that propelled the books at first, and once the novelty of single Spidey wears off, sales could decline sharply.

Comic manufacturers, especially Marvel, have been proven to exhibit "locust-like" attacks on their customers' wallets in the past, and this amped-up schedule is no exception. Trying to scoop more dollars from a shrinking customer base is a REALLY bad trend in this business and we saw in the 90's that it can lead to disaster. Doing it in order to "cover-up" the consequences of a questionable decision that may have caused a shrinkage of the customer base in the first place is extremely short-sighted. Misleading the public into thinking something is selling well in order to disguise or mitigate failure and save yourself embarrassment? That's underhanded and downright predatory.

Thank you for the input, its a shame that Marvel has to do these things in order to try to claim success. Thank you for speaking up:) I hope more retailers like yourself to continue to speak up about these tactics.

[BlackToe]

I wanna know why my stores arent getting any free copies. Canada perhaps?

[CyberHubbs]

If you don't want them dirtying up your store, Ronnie, I'll take those two variant covers off your hands.

[jeffgamer]

Given how many folks online were able to predict how One More Day was going to play out pretty early on, I find it hard to believe that retailers were caught off-guard by it. Not to mention you'd think that if Marvel lied to retailers, as you claim, there'd be a huge public outcry about it from many of the retailers online.

Actually, while many of us clearly saw where Joe Quesada was taking the book, most people online were hoping it wouldn't come to pass...that he was going to pull some big last-minute "gotcha" moment. The only reason I didn't cancel ASM before OMD was in my hopes, vain though they may have been, that Quesada would show more respect for the fans and honor toward continuity. He didn't. The retailers surely couldn't play craps with their orders and risk ticking off their customers when the buying rates for ASM were so much higher pre-OMD. Nor could the retailers expect that the backlash of cancellations from their customers would be so huge. In fact, from all reports, some retailers lost a lot of business while others did not. It's apparently been quite fickle that way. With such unpredictability on multiple fronts, yeah, retailers were very likely to be taken off-guard by it.

As for a big public outcry...there was an article in today's newspaper about one real estate appraise who was blackballed because she refused to artificially appraise property as fine when it was not. Many people in the industry have rallied to her defense, pleased that someone was willing to break the wall of silence around the industry's self-preservation reaction that led to massive deception. But they hadn't been willing to say anything themselves, since that would be biting the hand that was feeding them. It may be likely that the same thing is going on in the comics industry. Marvel is the top company. Tick them off at your own peril.

[Matt Linton]

Didn't a retailer essentially take Marvel, DC, and Diamond to court, resulting in the final order cut-off policy? I don't remember hearing about him having any problems after that.

[philly]

Actually, while many of us clearly saw where Joe Quesada was taking the book, most people online were hoping it wouldn't come to pass...that he was going to pull some big last-minute "gotcha" moment. The only reason I didn't cancel ASM before OMD was in my hopes, vain though they may have been, that Quesada would show more respect for the fans and honor toward continuity. He didn't. The retailers surely couldn't play craps with their orders and risk ticking off their customers when the buying rates for ASM were so much higher pre-OMD. Nor could the retailers expect that the backlash of cancellations from their customers would be so huge. In fact, from all reports, some retailers lost a lot of business while others did not. It's apparently been quite fickle that way. With such unpredictability on multiple fronts, yeah, retailers were very likely to be taken off-guard by it.

As for a big public outcry...there was an article in today's newspaper about one real estate appraise who was blackballed because she refused to artificially appraise property as fine when it was not. Many people in the industry have rallied to her defense, pleased that someone was willing to break the wall of silence around the industry's self-preservation reaction that led to massive deception. But they hadn't been willing to say anything themselves, since that would be biting the hand that was feeding them. It may be likely that the same thing is going on in the comics industry. Marvel is the top company. Tick them off at your own peril.

I would not be surprise if that is happening.

[ShaggyB]

Shaggy... your store owner does not necessarily get 50% off. In order to get 50% off, you have to purchase over $1,400 in exclusively Marvel product every month for at least a year. It took me a good long time to get past 35%, and I was at 45% for a great deal longer, plus it costs at least 10% in shipping, which is never free...

Bottom line: in order to get discounts on comics, you have to subscribe to the system, which forces you to buy more books than you may necessarily want to buy or be able to sell. The volume-based system is a good reason why ASM will remain relatively high, numbers-wise. Smaller retailers like myself have to buy _something_ in order to maintain our discount plateaus, so you try to order more of the things that have long-term sales potential, like Spider-man or X-Men. It's all just math. If you spend thousands every month anyway, then yeah, you might as well open your own store.

Otherwise... FOR THE LOVE OF GOD SPARE YOURSELF THE AGONY!!!!


lol. Ken owns two shops, I can promise you he buys more than that to fill those stores subscribers.

lol that much fun huh.... Guess ill stick to SAN storage. Least i get the whole computer thing. lol

Then again, i do enjoy a challenge. My biggest fear is back issues. Where to get years and years of stock.

[ShaggyB]

If you don't want them dirtying up your store, Ronnie, I'll take those two variant covers off your hands.

io thought those were the second prints, am i mistaken?

[CyberHubbs]

io thought those were the second prints, am i mistaken?

Probably. I don't think I saw second-printings at my store, so that's the first time I've seen these. Cool to look at, though.

[Mister Mets]

Considering this took up 80+ posts on the Feb 2008 sales thread, I figured this deserved its own thread.

[Shade 20x6]

I wish I could say I'm surprised, but I'm not. Not even remotely. Like I've said before, this is Quesada's baby, and he can't afford for it to crash and burn. I also said before that he's not above manipulating the sales numbers if need be to try to prove a point.

Looks like some people owe me a Coke. :p

[Alan2099]

LMAO :D :D

OK... isn't the point of any title BUT Black Panther to sell?

I think the purpose of Marville was to see how horrible a book had to be before they culd get the reader count to hit single digits.

[Tetsuo_man]

I wonder about dan slott. He didn't have time to debate the figs here but he debated about his bff val on newsarama. so maybe he is just being quiet despite the fact he's working on an excruciately long and hard arc yet defends his friend. I think the jig is up and ronnie revealed it. that or the whole slott and val and guggenheim vs. huxford is a whole pro bnd vs. ant-bnd conspiracy but that would be ridicules.

[Tetsuo_man]

Marville was a vanity project for jemas pure and simple. he thought he was a good writer but wasnt'. there is a reason why he got fired for firing a great creative team off of fantastic four just so he could take over the title. also a reply i made in the other thread was meant sorta here but i didn't know that it had splintered from the sales theread.

wait i just saw it here thanks.

[BlackToe]

I think the jig is up and ronnie revealed it.

I doubt it. Jumping to conclusions like so many have already done here, because of a comic shop owner getting a couple copies for free doenst equal the truth and conspiracy revealed. There may be other factors or reasons for this. It might be a promotional deal, it might be a shipping error, it might be blowback from Diamond screwing up its numbers, it might be left-overs from a promotional event, etc. There's just too many glaring factors for this to be using this early as ammunition for anti-BND proclaimations. (Jeffgamer I'm looking at you)

[DeadXMan]

I'm sorry, but let me see if I've got this straight:

You're complaining that Marvel gave you FREE comics that you can then SELL for a profit.

That's what I was thinking, aswell.

Do what wizard did, put it on E-bay.

[Will.S]

While this doesn't neccessarily mean anything, in most comic shops I frequent (especially Midtown Comics) I can still pick up all 10 issues of Amazing Spider-Man 546-554 inclusing the Phil Jimenez/Slott free comic book day one shot.

Definitely the residual effect of over ordering so retailers will definitely be re-adjusting the orders so that the numbers won't look quite as high as they did and they won't be stuck with all those extra copies.

[Cyclopsj316]

I'm sorry, but let me see if I've got this straight:

You're complaining that Marvel gave you FREE comics that you can then SELL for a profit.

No, i believe hes just shedding light on what many of us already knew about marvel. They are not being very straight forward about the "success" of bnd...

Anyways, thanks a lot for the information ronnie my man.

[DeadXMan]

Why is Marvel being the villian when Diamond gave it to him?

[Cyclopsj316]

Why is Marvel being the villian when Diamond gave it to him?

Because marvel knows full well that BND is not a success, if there is so much overflow, that retailers have to give them away. Seeing so many spidey comics on the shelves is pretty sad.

Success my * BLEEP* :eek:

[Matt Linton]

Because marvel knows full well that BND is not a success, if there is so much overflow, that retailers have to give them away. Seeing so many spidey comics on the shelves is pretty sad.

Success my * BLEEP* :eek:

You're making a lot of assumptions there. One, that the overflow wasn't deliberate on the part of Marvel and Diamond, two, that the retailers would be giving them away, rather than selling them. And three, that there are so many Spidey comics on the shelves. At some stores, yes, at others, no.

[Cyclopsj316]

You're making a lot of assumptions there. One, that the overflow wasn't deliberate on the part of Marvel and Diamond, two, that the retailers would be giving them away, rather than selling them. And three, that there are so many Spidey comics on the shelves. At some stores, yes, at others, no.

No assumption here.

1) i see alot of spidey comics on the shelves. im not talking about anywhere else, yet i hear its the same. this guy ronnie confirms it down in l.A.

Dont worry, i'm sure BND sells out "somewhere" in the world... :rolleyes:

2) i dont see why marvel would deliberately make overflow, and then make second prints, as ronnie was saying...

3) ummm.. use whatever word you want, but "someone" is giving retailers FREE copies of BND. I dont care what they do with them, but it's still being given out for free by " retailer/marvel/distributer"... whoever this is. You know what i'm referring to, weather i used the word retailer or not... ;)


as far as assumption generally go.... thats basically what we do most here, no? make "assumptions" based on the facts / evidences we hear. none of us work at marvel, so i dont think we should bother with the whole " your making assumptions..." stick.

I'd be tempted to say " No *bleep* sherlock...", but I won't... :evilsmile

Oh snap, I went there !!! :eek:

I'd say ronnie gave us some decent info, as a LCS owner, which for the most part, many of us here are not. I tend to open my ears a bit wider to them. Just waiting for all these LCS owners to come out of the woodwork and say how BND sells out every month, since I have yet to hear anything like that... but again, I'm sure it happens. Somewhere...

[Cyclopsj316]

Oh, and sorry matt, but you became the random victim tonight of my smiles filled response post of the day. I forgot some, so here are the rest. SMILE !!! :D

:( :mad:

ummm, oh yeah, and :)

[Alan2099]

1) i see alot of spidey comics on the shelves. im not talking about anywhere else, yet i hear its the same. this guy ronnie confirms it down in l.A.
I don't see any anywhere around here.

Dont worry, i'm sure BND sells out "somewhere" in the world...
I'm sure "somewhere" people aren't making up lies to make a story they don't like look worse. ;)

[mortari]

Honestly, I'm already seeing BND in 50 cent boxes at shows all round the midwest. And it's not selling out of there either.
Now I only to shows in 3 states, so that may not be the case everywhere.
But I can't deny the facts, it's not selling anywhere near what anyone should be happy with

[black_spidey728]

I doubt it. Jumping to conclusions like so many have already done here, because of a comic shop owner getting a couple copies for free doenst equal the truth and conspiracy revealed. There may be other factors or reasons for this. It might be a promotional deal, it might be a shipping error, it might be blowback from Diamond screwing up its numbers, it might be left-overs from a promotional event, etc. There's just too many glaring factors for this to be using this early as ammunition for anti-BND proclaimations. (Jeffgamer I'm looking at you)

That's kind of the response I expected from you. Nobody is jumping to conclusions. An LCS owner, provided facts and substatiated it data. Its onvious that Marvel is attempting to boost sales of BND by using shady tactics. We've documented 3"shady" practices that Marvel has used to make the numbers look better. Forcing owners to order several months in advance (knowing full well how OMD/BND was gonna be recieved), forcing subscribers to purchase a certain number of books before cancelling and giving away free copies to boost numbers. That doesn't sound like jumping to conclusions...that seems real to me.

[carabas]

I'm sure "somewhere" people aren't making up lies to make a story they don't like look worse. ;)Is it really that inconceivable that not every single comics shop in the world can shift near-unlimited quantities of the things?
There's bunches of BND left over here.

[Mister Mets]

This thread is proof that many of the individuals who dislike Brand New Day will look for any reason to consider it a failure, especially since they were predisposed to believe that Marvel would fudge numbers.

Note: these posts came right before Ronnie Ramone's post about the free ASM 546 issues.


Companies fudge numbers, take quotes out of context, and overexagerrate things all the time to try to sell their product. That's just what they do.

BND is Quesada's baby, and his ego won't allow it to be labeled a failure.


As proof of this does anyone remember Taylor Hicks ? The American Idol winner a few years back ? Well ..the label that released his album decided to play some fuzzy math and shipped 1 million units of the album to stores to make the album go platinum. But in sale sthe album only did 700,000 units.

By doing this the label tried to claim Hick's was a platinum selling artist. Once the news came out that his sales weren't and that the label was fudging numbers ..they had some egg on their face. So they dropped Hick's a few months ago...

Has anyone offered proof that the "sales" of the free issues of ASM 546 will be factored in to sales figures. Because unless that happens, Marvel isn't fudging numbers.

[black_spidey728]

This thread is proof that many of the individuals who dislike Brand New Day will look for any reason to consider it a failure, especially since they were predisposed to believe that Marvel would fudge numbers.

Note: these posts came right before Ronnie Ramone's post about the free ASM 546 issues.





Has anyone offered proof that the "sales" of the free issues of ASM 546 will be factored in to sales figures. Because unless that happens, Marvel isn't fudging numbers.


Why would Marvel ship them and not factor them in? So what, they just shipped them out of the goodness of their heart? Marvel doesn't do stuff like that. They sent them to boost sales, plain and simple. Think about it, just shipping 1000 free books/state boosts the numbers by 50,000.

We see it in living color, thanks for the 411 Ron!!!

[philly]

That's kind of the response I expected from you. Nobody is jumping to conclusions. An LCS owner, provided facts and substatiated it data. Its onvious that Marvel is attempting to boost sales of BND by using shady tactics. We've documented 3"shady" practices that Marvel has used to make the numbers look better. Forcing owners to order several months in advance (knowing full well how OMD/BND was gonna be recieved), forcing subscribers to purchase a certain number of books before cancelling and giving away free copies to boost numbers. That doesn't sound like jumping to conclusions...that seems real to me.

It seems real to me as well.

[Matt Linton]

But I can't deny the facts, it's not selling anywhere near what anyone should be happy with

That's not a "fact", that's your conclusion based on a limited amount of data.

[Matt Linton]

Forcing owners to order several months in advance (knowing full well how OMD/BND was gonna be recieved),

That's been the way comics are ordered for years. OMD had nothing to do with it. By that logic, any company that hires Rob Liefeld to draw a comic is being shady by forcing retailers to order several months in advance.


forcing subscribers to purchase a certain number of books before cancelling

You do know what a subscription is, right? That's how they work, whether you're talking about comics or magazines.


and giving away free copies to boost numbers.

It's a promotion. Just like Rolling Stone, Entertainment Weekly, and Sports Illustrated do.


That doesn't sound like jumping to conclusions...that seems real to me.

It's ascribing negative intentions to long-existing business practices because you happen to dislike the current storyline.

[Matt Linton]

Why would Marvel ship them and not factor them in? So what, they just shipped them out of the goodness of their heart? Marvel doesn't do stuff like that. They sent them to boost sales, plain and simple. Think about it, just shipping 1000 free books/state boosts the numbers by 50,000.

We see it in living color, thanks for the 411 Ron!!!

To boost future sales. By offering extra copies at no charge, it's added incentive for the retailer to try and get customers to try the book, thus increasing sales later on.

[ShaggyB]

That's not a "fact", that's your conclusion based on a limited amount of data.

very true. We have one set of data. Ronnie supplied an order receipt with free copies of BND on it.

We however dont know.....

1. Why diamond shipped them to him at no charge?
2. If they were included in the count of books sold?
3. How many other stores have received this kick back?

Sure, one can guess at those 3 things and come up with an answer but to get the truth we need a few of them to be answered with concrete facts before an "Educated Guess" can be made.

Im just gonna go with.....

If Marvel is shipping free books and counting them as sales, then BND's numbers are boosted. If that is the case then some light is shed on why the numbers are so good right now. (And yes out selling the three previous spidey books combined, is still a success in my book.)

Now again if this is all diamonds doing then the story changes completely, to a distributer giving kick backs to promote sales with LCSs.

Likewise if this is just a few LCSs getting this special treatment then its likely an entirely different story than the previous two.

Too many factors to consider right now. Any other LCS owners get this? can you scan the order receipts and post them up? Has anyone who has asked Diamond why? Any help would be appreciated. (lol inquiring minds want to know!! lol)

[black_spidey728]

That's been the way comics are ordered for years. OMD had nothing to do with it. By that logic, any company that hires Rob Liefeld to draw a comic is being shady by forcing retailers to order several months in advance.



You do know what a subscription is, right? That's how they work, whether you're talking about comics or magazines.



It's a promotion. Just like Rolling Stone, Entertainment Weekly, and Sports Illustrated do.



It's ascribing negative intentions to long-existing business practices because you happen to dislike the current storyline.

Under normal circumstances you'd be correct, but their was a special edict set up for BND.

Normally, subscribers can change their subs to any book or cancell at anytime. With BND, the sybscribers had to take the arc or 2 before changing or cancelling.

Normally, LCS's do have to order in advance but not to the volume and advance stat for BND.

Its not willy-nilly ascribing negative intentions. Regardless of how you try to spin it. Marvel is trying to get over on the fans base...flat-out!

[ShaggyB]

Under normal circumstances you'd be correct, but their was a special edict set up for BND.

Normally, subscribers can change their subs to any book or cancell at anytime. With BND, the sybscribers had to take the arc or 2 before changing or cancelling.

perhaps im missing something here but...... Where was that at? I can pick up or drop a book at any time at the LCS doesnt matter what changes came to the character. (lol sometimes they even pull mini's for me that i dont ask for but deal with the characters i subscribe to)

Basically who said you couldnt? Where? When? Details? and or repost what youve already said that said this, as i have missed it.

Nearest i can tell is you are mad that marvel charges you for a certain amount of discounted issues through them before they allow you to cancel a subscription. Big deal, im surprised they even give you money back if you jump ship before your 12 months is up.

[Mister Mets]

very true. We have one set of data. Ronnie supplied an order receipt with free copies of BND on it.

We however dont know.....

1. Why diamond shipped them to him at no charge?
2. If they were included in the count of books sold?
3. How many other stores have received this kick back?

Sure, one can guess at those 3 things and come up with an answer but to get the truth we need a few of them to be answered with concrete facts before an "Educated Guess" can be made.

Im just gonna go with.....

If Marvel is shipping free books and counting them as sales, then BND's numbers are boosted. If that is the case then some light is shed on why the numbers are so good right now. (And yes out selling the three previous spidey books combined, is still a success in my book.)

Now again if this is all diamonds doing then the story changes completely, to a distributer giving kick backs to promote sales with LCSs.

Likewise if this is just a few LCSs getting this special treatment then its likely an entirely different story than the previous two.

Too many factors to consider right now. Any other LCS owners get this? can you scan the order receipts and post them up? Has anyone who has asked Diamond why? Any help would be appreciated. (lol inquiring minds want to know!! lol)If Marvel is including the free comics in their sales figures, it still wouldn't have had any impact upon the initial sales reports for Amazing Spider-Man #546, because those sales reports predated the orders for the free copies (Ron's invoice indicates that the order was made after the 11th of March.)


Why would Marvel ship them and not factor them in? So what, they just shipped them out of the goodness of their heart? Marvel doesn't do stuff like that. They sent them to boost sales, plain and simple. Think about it, just shipping 1000 free books/state boosts the numbers by 50,000.

We see it in living color, thanks for the 411 Ron!!!I have no idea what Marvel's motives are, but I see no indication that the free copies will be included in Marvel's sales reports (especially the Direct Market sales we usually consider to factor how well a book is doing.)

For all I know, Marvel's sending the free copies to boost interest in the first Brand New Day Premiere Edition hardcover, which is a viable business strategy.

[Mister Mets]

That's kind of the response I expected from you. Nobody is jumping to conclusions. An LCS owner, provided facts and substatiated it data. Its onvious that Marvel is attempting to boost sales of BND by using shady tactics. We've documented 3"shady" practices that Marvel has used to make the numbers look better. Forcing owners to order several months in advance (knowing full well how OMD/BND was gonna be recieved), forcing subscribers to purchase a certain number of books before cancelling and giving away free copies to boost numbers. That doesn't sound like jumping to conclusions...that seems real to me.What are the three shady practices?

[black_spidey728]

perhaps im missing something here but...... Where was that at? I can pick up or drop a book at any time at the LCS doesnt matter what changes came to the character. (lol sometimes they even pull mini's for me that i dont ask for but deal with the characters i subscribe to)

Basically who said you couldnt? Where? When? Details? and or repost what youve already said that said this, as i have missed it.

Nearest i can tell is you are mad that marvel charges you for a certain amount of discounted issues through them before they allow you to cancel a subscription. Big deal, im surprised they even give you money back if you jump ship before your 12 months is up.

No, its not sour grapes and that isn't referring to subscriptions through your LCS. I'm referring to subscriptions that are Marvel direct.

There was many threads devoted to the topic over on the Marvel Spidey board, complete with phone numbers and quotes directly from the Marvel subscription department. Jeffgamer can back me up on this

And I'm not mad at being chared because I get my books through a mail-order house from Diamond direct (at a deep discount), so I could get ASM really cheap but I still won't get that crap.

[ShaggyB]

If Marvel is including the free comics in their sales figures, it still wouldn't have had any impact upon the initial sales reports for Amazing Spider-Man #546, because those sales reports predated the orders for the free copies (Ron's invoice indicates that the order was made after the 11th of March.)

Thats a good point, dont we already have the numbers from an earlier date than these free comics were sent out on?

[ShaggyB]

No, its not sour grapes and that isn't referring to subscriptions through your LCS. I'm referring to subscriptions that are Marvel direct.

There was many threads devoted to the topic over on the Marvel Spidey board, complete with phone numbers and quotes directly from the Marvel subscription department. Jeffgamer can back me up on this

And I'm not mad at being chared because I get my books through a mail-order house from Diamond direct (at a deep discount), so I could get ASM really cheap but I still won't get that crap.

So your saying that marvel wont let you drop a book directly because youve already paid and it doesnt want to refund you the money?

Sorry, perhaps im too use to magazine subscriptions, but dropping a subscription does not = refund most of the time. Usually means no renewal occurs.

Please direct me to this thread as i have to read what it is you are trying to reference in greater detail. (dont really feel like you should have to repost everything if i can just go read it and come back, link me up)

[Mister Mets]

Thats a good point, dont we already have the numbers from an earlier date than these free comics were sent out on?
The numbers for the first month of BND came out in February 18. (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=212576&highlight=January+2008+Brand+Sales) Ron's invoice states that his orders were placed after March 11. (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=6570321&postcount=69) So the free copies shouldn't be included in the pre-order estimates for ASM 546.

[ronnieramone]

I'm glad so many of you appreciate what I'm trying to share here. Thank you for your support here on the forums. It seems that some people are taking the evidence I pointed out the wrong way and are getting defensive.

I'm not predicting total disaster for Spider-man or the comics world simply because I got a few free copies of a book.

There are tens of thousands of collectors out there who buy Amazing Spider-man every month and don't even read it. There are fifty thousand, probably, or more that buy it, read it and will continue to do so even if Spider-man is shot and killed and is replaced by his former sidekick, the Amazing Steel Spider-kid. I wish they were in my town, but alas they are not.

As to the question of whether Amazing Spider-man #546 is sold out at Diamond, it isn't. It is still readily available for re-order in both first and second printings. It is not sold out at Diamond. They lied.

Most of us remember this on January 15, 2008:
"AMAZING SPIDER-MAN" #546 GETS SECOND PRINTING
http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=12751

This was "spin" news that was posted on this very site.

It was a lie. People did not buy those books, they did not sell out. The second printing was a phony, done for positive publicity.

[black_spidey728]

So your saying that marvel wont let you drop a book directly because youve already paid and it doesnt want to refund you the money?

Sorry, perhaps im too use to magazine subscriptions, but dropping a subscription does not = refund most of the time. Usually means no renewal occurs.

Please direct me to this thread as i have to read what it is you are trying to reference in greater detail. (dont really feel like you should have to repost everything if i can just go read it and come back, link me up)

http://www.marvel.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=97586&sid=73f564a81f0f5ecc85739ca5424a85ea

The threads are loated in this topic also, Marvel's prior stance is that you can cancel a subscription at any time for a refund of the remaining books or you can transfer the remaining issues to another title. When people attempted to do this after OMD, they weren't allowed.

[ShaggyB]

http://www.marvel.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=97586&sid=73f564a81f0f5ecc85739ca5424a85ea

The threads are loated in this topic also, Marvel's prior stance is that you can cancel a subscription at any time for a refund of the remaining books or you can transfer the remaining issues to another title. When people attempted to do this after OMD, they weren't allowed.

be more specific, 212 pages. What page should i be checking? Im basically searching for the word 'subscription' on the pages. any help on that would be nice. To me it sounds like marvel decided to act more like other companies and go well it takes a few weeks to process and you will be getting the three for this month as we cant handle it quickly enough to stop those from shipping.

Regardless I'd be glad they even let you switch. like i said most other places would just go with.... well we wont renew your subs but you got 9 months left on your contract with us. Enjoy.

[philly]

I'm glad so many of you appreciate what I'm trying to share here. Thank you for your support here on the forums. It seems that some people are taking the evidence I pointed out the wrong way and are getting defensive.

I'm not predicting total disaster for Spider-man or the comics world simply because I got a few free copies of a book.

There are tens of thousands of collectors out there who buy Amazing Spider-man every month and don't even read it. There are fifty thousand, probably, or more that buy it, read it and will continue to do so even if Spider-man is shot and killed and is replaced by his former sidekick, the Amazing Steel Spider-kid. I wish they were in my town, but alas they are not.

As to the question of whether Amazing Spider-man #546 is sold out at Diamond, it isn't. It is still readily available for re-order in both first and second printings. It is not sold out at Diamond. They lied.

Most of us remember this on January 15, 2008:
"AMAZING SPIDER-MAN" #546 GETS SECOND PRINTING
http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=12751

This was "spin" news that was posted on this very site.

It was a lie. People did not buy those books, they did not sell out. The second printing was a phony, done for positive publicity.

Hey, thank you:) May you give us more info when you have some more free time to share with us.

[ShaggyB]

Ron, dont worry, no one is or atleast no one should be blaiming you for sharing this info with us.

I'll ask thsi, can you call Diamond and ask why or how you got the free issues? That would be a great help as to see where said issues came from.

[Tetsuo_man]

Wonder if any of this will make next weeks lying in the gutters?

[black_spidey728]

be more specific, 212 pages. What page should i be checking? Im basically searching for the word 'subscription' on the pages. any help on that would be nice. To me it sounds like marvel decided to act more like other companies and go well it takes a few weeks to process and you will be getting the three for this month as we cant handle it quickly enough to stop those from shipping.

Regardless I'd be glad they even let you switch. like i said most other places would just go with.... well we wont renew your subs but you got 9 months left on your contract with us. Enjoy.

Shaggy, it was in that thred as wel as threads talking about if we were staying or leaving toward the time when OMD ended and BND started. It was there for all to see however it's been so long ago that I don't remember location specifics.

The main point was that Marvel changed its subs policy almost concurrent to BND. You feel that they were in their rights doing it, I feel it was done with ulterior motives. You're operating off the assumption that Marvel has your best interest at heart and I look at it like Marvel will look out for its own financial interest before it bats an eyelash at us fans.

Either way , the April numbers will tell the story because that's when the forced orders and subscriptions run out.

[Qoorl]

I could tell you I had lunch with Charleze Theron. Would you believe me?





Did you try the fish?

[ShaggyB]

Shaggy, it was in that thred as wel as threads talking about if we were staying or leaving toward the time when OMD ended and BND started. It was there for all to see however it's been so long ago that I don't remember location specifics.

The main point was that Marvel changed its subs policy almost concurrent to BND. You feel that they were in their rights doing it, I feel it was done with ulterior motives. You're operating off the assumption that Marvel has your best interest at heart and I look at it like Marvel will look out for its own financial interest before it bats an eyelash at us fans.

Either way , the April numbers will tell the story because that's when the forced orders and subscriptions run out.

lol, no no you misunderstand me. I dont feel they did it with the best interest to the customer. I feel they are well within there rights and that the switch to thrice monthly makes the it harder to drop you from the mailing order without a few slipping through the system.

I however dont think that it hurts them any to delay you and i see your point. Its true april and marches numbers will be the ones that show where things are heading.

Also one has to ask this....

How much of the sales of Marvel comics are from direct subscriptions to Marvel vs LCS?

[Cyclopsj316]

This thread is proof that many of the individuals who dislike Brand New Day will look for any reason to consider it a failure...



The defensive responses are also proof that many individuals who LIKE Brand New Day will look for any reason to consider it a SUCCESS...

since the street goes both ways, I'll be on the RIGHT side. :p

[ShaggyB]

The defensive responses are also proof that many individuals who LIKE Brand New Day will look for any reason to consider it a SUCCESS...

since the street goes both ways, I'll be on the RIGHT side. :p

lol i pay taxes on both sides, its driven down the middle for me...... wait can i use the side walk as a passing lane?

[Cyclopsj316]

I'm glad so many of you appreciate what I'm trying to share here. Thank you for your support here on the forums. It seems that some people are taking the evidence I pointed out the wrong way and are getting defensive.

I'm not predicting total disaster for Spider-man or the comics world simply because I got a few free copies of a book.

There are tens of thousands of collectors out there who buy Amazing Spider-man every month and don't even read it. There are fifty thousand, probably, or more that buy it, read it and will continue to do so even if Spider-man is shot and killed and is replaced by his former sidekick, the Amazing Steel Spider-kid. I wish they were in my town, but alas they are not.

As to the question of whether Amazing Spider-man #546 is sold out at Diamond, it isn't. It is still readily available for re-order in both first and second printings. It is not sold out at Diamond. They lied.

Most of us remember this on January 15, 2008:
"AMAZING SPIDER-MAN" #546 GETS SECOND PRINTING
http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=12751

This was "spin" news that was posted on this very site.

It was a lie. People did not buy those books, they did not sell out. The second printing was a phony, done for positive publicity.

Don't worry, just keep posting. Sometimes the truth hurts, and thats when we get defensive responses.

I am thankful to have a LCS owner posting facts, rather than just reading about fan speculation, which is what happens here most. That is a welcome change sometimes.

you were curious about the bnd "SELLOUT".
so were we.
you provided facts.
i accept them.
some dont. ( most likey pro-bnd )
what are ya gonna do, stop posting ??? :confused:

The end of yer quote up there is priceless. I said that before this came out. many of us did.

Heres looking to the next marvel spin they try to throw at us, and to those who will open wide and swallow it with patriotic pride; as opposed to actually seeing through the lies.... :D

[Cyclopsj316]

lol i pay taxes on both sides, its driven down the middle for me...... wait can i use the side walk as a passing lane?

WHA !!??

But that would mean you are free from board flaming and trolling...

BLASPHEMY !!!:eek:

it has to be black and white.

you must choose !!!

red pill?
blue pill?

there can be only one :p

[ShaggyB]

WHA !!??

But that would mean you are free from board flaming and trolling...

BLASPHEMY !!!:eek:

it has to be black and white.

you must choose !!!

red pill?
blue pill?

there can be only one :p

lol

Im enjoying BND so far but even i dont think it was or ever will be a sell out. I too appreciate Ron posting what he sees. The more info a person can have about something the less likely they are to say something stupid or jump to the wrong conclusion.

I applaud his efforts to spread what he has found. I just want more.


there can be only one :p
"Always two there are.... One Master.... and one apprentice."

[Endless Flight]

How much of the sales of Marvel comics are from direct subscriptions to Marvel vs LCS?

About 20-25%

[ShaggyB]

About 20-25%

where is this data coming from. Link please

[Endless Flight]

I've gleaned it from digging into direct sales numbers, and comparing them to the ownership statements Marvel issues every year. The link is to my brain, however faulty it may be!

[Mister Mets]

I've gleaned it from digging into direct sales numbers, and comparing them to the ownership statements Marvel issues every year. The link is to my brain, however faulty it may be!It is worth noting that this can vary from title to title.

Marvel Adventures Spider-Man may not light direct market sales charts on fire, but it has the most subscriptions, which is one reason it's not going to be straight to trade.

With the new discount on Amazing Spider-Man, I wouldn't be surprised if it gets a disproportionately high amount of subscribers.

[Shade 20x6]

http://www.marvel.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=97586&sid=73f564a81f0f5ecc85739ca5424a85ea

The threads are loated in this topic also, Marvel's prior stance is that you can cancel a subscription at any time for a refund of the remaining books or you can transfer the remaining issues to another title. When people attempted to do this after OMD, they weren't allowed.

An awful lot of changes that coincided with the release of BND. I wonder why. ;)

[Mister Mets]

An awful lot of changes that coincided with the release of BND. I wonder why. ;) If it takes 6-8 weeks to process a subscription or a cancellation, that means that by the time the subscription is canceled, upwards of six issues may be shipped, which makes it kind of pointless to cancel a twelve issue subscription.

[Brand]

If it takes 6-8 weeks to process a subscription or a cancellation, that means that by the time the subscription is canceled, upwards of six issues may be shipped, which makes it kind of pointless to cancel a twelve issue subscription.

Yeah, I cut out after OMD but still received the first four issues of BND. They make great coasters! :p

[Neptunicus]

They DID go to a second printing prematurely to get positive press, and first printings are still readily available for re-order along with the second printings.

Not entirely disagreeing with all your points but there are greater economies in scale and it seems like comic book store owners underestimated the demand for the first printing of Captain America #25...so Marvel may have jumped the gun a bit on the second printing. It probably made sales people at Marvel sick when they saw speculators on Ebay getting top dollar for CA#25 when the demand was there for them to ship another 50,000 issues or whatever. Or they over ran the ASM first printing to save money and figured that if reorders didn't come in as expected they could use them as a promotion. Or maybe even to inflate sales figures - I like a good conspiracy as much as anybody. It could be a confluence of all these factors b/c Joe Q and Marvel have a lot riding on the changes in ASM and if BND failed it could have larger implication than a down trend in it's sales. Spiderman is a big franchise for Marvel outside of comic book sales.

At any rate thanks for the articulate posts. It's certainly food for thought.

[erictheman9]

The numbers for the first month of BND came out in February 18. (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=212576&highlight=January+2008+Brand+Sales) Ron's invoice states that his orders were placed after March 11. (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=6570321&postcount=69) So the free copies shouldn't be included in the pre-order estimates for ASM 546.

I dunno, wouldn't that depend on how they're accounted for? Free issues aren't free--someone's paying for them. Maybe Marvel bought them and is shipping them out through diamond? In that case, the relevant date is when marvel bought them.

[carabas]

I've gleaned it from digging into direct sales numbers, and comparing them to the ownership statements Marvel issues every year. The link is to my brain, however faulty it may be!Don't Diamond's direct sames numbers exclude foreign sales and pretty much any sales not to the direct market?

[DeadXMan]

Talk my LCS owner

They said and I qoute " I wish theose #@$#ers gave me free comics".

[ShaggyB]

Talk my LCS owner

They said and I qoute " I wish theose #@$#ers gave me free comics".

lol thats what my guy said.

[ronnieramone]

Sorry, can't type as much as I'd like today to respond to some of the comments because it is WEDNESDAY and I'm slammed...

DeadXMan: Ask your LCS owner if he placed any re-orders in the last 2 weeks for ASM books. I strongly suspect that the promotion was tied to re-orders. Whatever side of the BND fence we're on, I think we'd all like to get to the bottom of "the mystery." (not my words, by the way)

I imagine sales figures for March will come out as low as 80,000 per issue or perhaps a hair under, simply because of the creative team. Gale's run didn't do Spidey any favors.

As for next week, look for ASM to remain relatively high, but not as high as February, probably around 81,000 or so. ASM #555 will come in third to Secret Invasion and Dark Tower: The Long Road Home #2 (Dark Tower is exceptional, by the way).

Fans who were disappointed with the last Spidey arc will be pleased to discover that #555 gets much better. Having just read it, I can say that it's starting to feel like a Spider-man comic again, although someone is going to scream about continuity next week and there will be a whole thread about it.

I won't spoil it though. Gotta honor the agreement. Yes, Marvel makes us agree to secrecy on certain things.

[Shade 20x6]

Sorry, can't type as much as I'd like today to respond to some of the comments because it is WEDNESDAY and I'm slammed...

DeadXMan: Ask your LCS owner if he placed any re-orders in the last 2 weeks for ASM books. I strongly suspect that the promotion was tied to re-orders. Whatever side of the BND fence we're on, I think we'd all like to get to the bottom of "the mystery." (not my words, by the way)

I imagine sales figures for March will come out as low as 80,000 per issue or perhaps a hair under, simply because of the creative team. Gale's run didn't do Spidey any favors.

As for next week, look for ASM to remain relatively high, but not as high as February, probably around 81,000 or so. ASM #555 will come in third to Secret Invasion and Dark Tower: The Long Road Home #2 (Dark Tower is exceptional, by the way).

Fans who were disappointed with the last Spidey arc will be pleased to discover that #555 gets much better. Having just read it, I can say that it's starting to feel like a Spider-man comic again, although someone is going to scream about continuity next week and there will be a whole thread about it.

I won't spoil it though. Gotta honor the agreement. Yes, Marvel makes us agree to secrecy on certain things.

Sounds like I've got a busy week ahead of me. :D

[stillanerd]

Sorry, can't type as much as I'd like today to respond to some of the comments because it is WEDNESDAY and I'm slammed...

DeadXMan: Ask your LCS owner if he placed any re-orders in the last 2 weeks for ASM books. I strongly suspect that the promotion was tied to re-orders. Whatever side of the BND fence we're on, I think we'd all like to get to the bottom of "the mystery." (not my words, by the way)

I imagine sales figures for March will come out as low as 80,000 per issue or perhaps a hair under, simply because of the creative team. Gale's run didn't do Spidey any favors.

And considering how Gale's run was not that well received overall by even BND supporters, I imagine future issues he'll be on will also sell on the low end--which is bad news considering how it seems he apart from Slott will be getting more "face time" in upcoming months on Spider-Man.


As for next week, look for ASM to remain relatively high, but not as high as February, probably around 81,000 or so. ASM #555 will come in third to Secret Invasion and Dark Tower: The Long Road Home #2 (Dark Tower is exceptional, by the way).

Fans who were disappointed with the last Spidey arc will be pleased to discover that #555 gets much better. Having just read it, I can say that it's starting to feel like a Spider-man comic again, although someone is going to scream about continuity next week and there will be a whole thread about it.

I won't spoil it though. Gotta honor the agreement. Yes, Marvel makes us agree to secrecy on certain things.

Hmm, could it have anything to do with: "How come Wolverine doesn't know who Spider-Man really is? Doesn't he know that Peter and Spidey have the same scent? Didn't he figure this out in Spider-Man vs. Wolverine?" perhaps?

[ShaggyB]

lol i read it on the next week preview stand at my LCS. Just part of the boards here we cant discuss. Though the early previews of BND with spidey in the snow are from this story arc.

Its pretty decent, though i dont care for the art.

[ShaggyB]

Hmm, could it have anything to do with: "How come Wolverine doesn't know who Spider-Man really is? Doesn't he know that Peter and Spidey have the same scent? Didn't he figure this out in Spider-Man vs. Wolverine?" perhaps?

even if he did he would have forgotten the two were the same. Then you have to add the fact that unless he runs into pete while actively trying to hunt spiderman, the chances are he wont notice.

Otherwise id bet hed be sick of people opening doors and new scents floating in all day at xaviers house.

[Matt Linton]

And considering how Gale's run was not that well received overall by even BND supporters, I imagine future issues he'll be on will also sell on the low end--which is bad news considering how it seems he apart from Slott will be getting more "face time" in upcoming months on Spider-Man.

I really disliked Gale's run and was on the verge of skipping his future issues. Two things changed my mind: Mike McKone and the Enforcers.




Hmm, could it have anything to do with: "How come Wolverine doesn't know who Spider-Man really is? Doesn't he know that Peter and Spidey have the same scent? Didn't he figure this out in Spider-Man vs. Wolverine?" perhaps?

Since, post-OMD, Wolverine doesn't know Spider-Man's identity, he'd have to go through the whole "smell Peter, then smell Spider-Man and put two and two together" thing again.

[Cyclopsj316]

quote = ( yours truly )

" There can be only one... "





"Always two there are.... One Master.... and one apprentice."



LOL, LOL, perfect response... :D

[ShaggyB]

quote = ( yours truly )

" There can be only one... "




LOL, LOL, perfect response... :D

Id say, I try but....

"There is no try" lol

[stillanerd]

even if he did he would have forgotten the two were the same. Then you have to add the fact that unless he runs into pete while actively trying to hunt spiderman, the chances are he wont notice.

Otherwise id bet hed be sick of people opening doors and new scents floating in all day at xaviers house.

See, I figured that, prior to Joe Q's moratorium on heroes smoking, that the real reason Wolverine smoked cigars was so he could have a sure fire way of masking all the BO he had to put up with. Notice he always seemed to light up after the X-Men had danger room sessions and fought evil mutants? Well, fighting DOES work up a pretty good sweat, so...:D


Since, post-OMD, Wolverine doesn't know Spider-Man's identity, he'd have to go through the whole "smell Peter, then smell Spider-Man and put two and two together" thing again.

True. Still doesn't mean it won't come up, though, especially with folks pointing to Joe Q's own words about how "all the stories except the marriage still count" which would include Spidey vs. Wolverine, which took place BEFORE Spidey got married.

[DeadXMan]

it's too late to ask him now.

but he is known for overordering for two things.

1. to get artists and writers to coming (that's how we got Michel Turner to come to Omaha)
2 too bundle up runs and sell them to the people that wait for trades.

[Matt Linton]

True. Still doesn't mean it won't come up, though, especially with folks pointing to Joe Q's own words about how "all the stories except the marriage still count" which would include Spidey vs. Wolverine, which took place BEFORE Spidey got married.

Fair point.

[BlackToe]

That's kind of the response I expected from you. Nobody is jumping to conclusions. An LCS owner, provided facts and substatiated it data. Its onvious that Marvel is attempting to boost sales of BND by using shady tactics. We've documented 3"shady" practices that Marvel has used to make the numbers look better. Forcing owners to order several months in advance (knowing full well how OMD/BND was gonna be recieved), forcing subscribers to purchase a certain number of books before cancelling and giving away free copies to boost numbers. That doesn't sound like jumping to conclusions...that seems real to me.

You've already jumped to conclusions without looking and having more patience. And as pointed out earlier, those are normal business practices. You're molding it to look like something that possibly isnt there and hoping that it is that.

Of course I was going to respond like that, because I know that there is more to this than what we're seeing. With more time and patience, the more you start to see to better understand the full picture.

[The Shadow]

they did not sell out.
My response to that is they sure did!

Those books may have been in a Diamond warehouse but they were NOT available for re-order. Regardless of the fact it was for a promotion or what, those books were NOT available for customers like yourself to get.

The copies available to retailers SOLD OUT.

Is that sneaky? Arguably.
Does that make the sell out any less factual though? No.

And I asked my shop today if they got any free copies of any ASM books and they said no (other than the Free Comic Book Day issue). It could be a U.S. store only thing though.

[The Shadow]

An LCS owner, provided facts and substatiated it data.
No, he provided his opinion on why he got free books.


Forcing owners to order several months in advance
I hate to be the one to spoil this (maybe someone else even did along the way) but A) no one forces the owners to do that and B) books have always had the initial orders 2 months in advance. This isn't a Marvel thing.


(knowing full well how OMD/BND was gonna be recieved)
Is Joe psychic now? How could he know FULL WELL how it was gonna be recieved? I thought I would dislike it based on OMD... but I'm rather enjoying it.


forcing subscribers to purchase a certain number of books before cancelling
You really don't know how the business works do you?

[ronnieramone]

My response to that is they sure did!

Those books may have been in a Diamond warehouse but they were NOT available for re-order. Regardless of the fact it was for a promotion or what, those books were NOT available for customers like yourself to get.

The copies available to retailers SOLD OUT.

Is that sneaky? Arguably.
Does that make the sell out any less factual though? No.

This sounds like denial. I should know, because I just went through it when Mary Jane vanished from the Amazing Spider-man books.

There was a confirmed Marvel promotion. I spoke with my Diamond sales rep and they confirmed it: there was, in fact, a promotion in March to give out a free copy of ASM #546 for each re-order of a Brand New Day back-issue. I will attempt to acquire documented proof of the promotion details, so that there should be no remaining doubt as to its validity.

I saw the $#@%-storm on this coming in November, so I ordered "subscribers-only" on ASM releasing in January & February. When I finally had a couple of new customers request the back-issues, I re-ordered them as I would for anyone, and I was surprised to be given free books for doing so. Incidentally, neither of my two new customers chose to actually purchase all of the issues I ordered for them, opting instead to "try it out first." Both picked up only the most recent issues, leaving even me with books on the shelf.

Many LCS owners obviously never even looked at re-ordering #546, almost certainly because they still have unsold copies from their initial orders on the shelf or perhaps they simply believed what they were told in January about the books being sold out and so they never actually bothered to look. If they had tried to re-order, they would have noticed (as I did) that the first printing was mysteriously still available for re-order, as was every other BND issue. Also, if they had re-ordered any of those issues, which they obviously didn't (again, most likely because the books are probably still sitting there in the store), then they would have likely gotten free copies of ASM #546, as I did. It should be noted that it is also quite possible that this promotion was restricted to the United States only, meaning people in Saskatchewan couldn't possibly know even the first thing about it.

When I arrive at my shop in the morning, around 10am PST, I will upload screen shots of Diamond's re-order website. These images should clearly prove to anyone of a reasonable intelligence who doubts my claim that ASM #546 is even now readily available for purchase by retailers, in both first and second printings. Also, as I said above, I will attempt to locate hard proof on the details of the promotion whereby I received the free books. When I do, I will post that as well.

That all being stated, I'd like to explore the definition of the term "sold out" for a moment, because it seems to me that this is the point where Shadow and I fundamentally disagree. To me, sold out means "sold out." They were all sold. People bought every last one. There are no more left because the total number of purchases equalled or exceeded the total supply. Is this definition even arguable?

It doesn't matter if the "mystery" books were set aside and earmarked for a future promotion, innocently forgotten and lost in a warehouse somewhere, trapped in a pocket dimension, whatever... they did not sell out. Nobody has purchased them yet. These books are clearly still available and are simply NOT sold out, and any statements to the contrary, as were made in January in a conveniently timed press release and here again by Shadow are factually untrue.


You really don't know how the business works do you?

I just threw this quote in because it's funny to me.

[Endless Flight]

My response to that is they sure did!

Apparently not, if he's able to get 1st printings still from Diamond!

[black_spidey728]

This sounds like denial. I should know, because I just went through it when Mary Jane vanished from the Amazing Spider-man books.

There was a confirmed Marvel promotion. I spoke with my Diamond sales rep and they confirmed it: there was, in fact, a promotion in March to give out a free copy of ASM #546 for each re-order of a Brand New Day back-issue. I will attempt to acquire documented proof of the promotion details, so that there should be no remaining doubt as to its validity.

I saw the $#@%-storm on this coming in November, so I ordered "subscribers-only" on ASM releasing in January & February. When I finally had a couple of new customers request the back-issues, I re-ordered them as I would for anyone, and I was surprised to be given free books for doing so. Incidentally, neither of my two new customers chose to actually purchase all of the issues I ordered for them, opting instead to "try it out first." Both picked up only the most recent issues, leaving even me with books on the shelf.

Many LCS owners obviously never even looked at re-ordering #546, almost certainly because they still have unsold copies from their initial orders on the shelf or perhaps they simply believed what they were told in January about the books being sold out and so they never actually bothered to look. If they had tried to re-order, they would have noticed (as I did) that the first printing was mysteriously still available for re-order, as was every other BND issue. Also, if they had re-ordered any of those issues, which they obviously didn't (again, most likely because the books are probably still sitting there in the store), then they would have likely gotten free copies of ASM #546, as I did. It should be noted that it is also quite possible that this promotion was restricted to the United States only, meaning people in Saskatchewan couldn't possibly know even the first thing about it.

When I arrive at my shop in the morning, around 10am PST, I will upload screen shots of Diamond's re-order website. These images should clearly prove to anyone of a reasonable intelligence who doubts my claim that ASM #546 is even now readily available for purchase by retailers, in both first and second printings. Also, as I said above, I will attempt to locate hard proof on the details of the promotion whereby I received the free books. When I do, I will post that as well.

That all being stated, I'd like to explore the definition of the term "sold out" for a moment, because it seems to me that this is the point where Shadow and I fundamentally disagree. To me, sold out means "sold out." They were all sold. People bought every last one. There are no more left because the total number of purchases equalled or exceeded the total supply. Is this definition even arguable?

It doesn't matter if the "mystery" books were set aside and earmarked for a future promotion, innocently forgotten and lost in a warehouse somewhere, trapped in a pocket dimension, whatever... they did not sell out. Nobody has purchased them yet. These books are clearly still available and are simply NOT sold out, and any statements to the contrary, as were made in January in a conveniently timed press release and here again by Shadow are factually untrue.



I just threw this quote in because it's funny to me.

Again Ron, props to you for your efforts to keep us posted. It has become apparent that guys like Black Toe and Shadow are hellbent on believing that Marvel has our best interest at heart and even though you are providing reams of data to substantiate your claims. I too found the statement about not knowing how the business world working funny too. We obviously as patrons dont know, that's why we're depending on you for info. I'm dumbfounded that people think that they have more information as customers than you have as an owner. So I look forward to today's data so we can see how Shadow and Black Toe and others want to over-ride their denial.

[philly]

You really don't know how the business works do you?

And you do? Can you provide some data of your own to back up your argument?

[philly]

Again Ron, props to you for your efforts to keep us posted. It has become apparent that guys like Black Toe and Shadow are hellbent on believing that Marvel has our best interest at heart and even though you are providing reams of data to substantiate your claims. I too found the statement about not knowing how the business world working funny too. We obviously as patrons dont know, that's why we're depending on you for info. I'm dumbfounded that people think that they have more information as customers than you have as an owner. So I look forward to today's data so we can see how Shadow and Black Toe and others want to over-ride their denial.

I agree, thank you for your efforts Ron. What you provided is very eye opining and disheartning.

[BlackToe]

Again Ron, props to you for your efforts to keep us posted. It has become apparent that guys like Black Toe and Shadow are hellbent on believing that Marvel has our best interest at heart and even though you are providing reams of data to substantiate your claims. I too found the statement about not knowing how the business world working funny too. We obviously as patrons dont know, that's why we're depending on you for info. I'm dumbfounded that people think that they have more information as customers than you have as an owner. So I look forward to today's data so we can see how Shadow and Black Toe and others want to over-ride their denial.

How does me saying the equivalent of "Dont count your eggs before they hatch" equate to me being "hellbent on believing that Marvel has our best interest at heart"?

Even the damn guy here posting this information said what I was saying. I wasnt even arguing his information.

[ShaggyB]

Again Ron, props to you for your efforts to keep us posted. It has become apparent that guys like Black Toe and Shadow are hellbent on believing that Marvel has our best interest at heart and even though you are providing reams of data to substantiate your claims. I too found the statement about not knowing how the business world working funny too. We obviously as patrons dont know, that's why we're depending on you for info. I'm dumbfounded that people think that they have more information as customers than you have as an owner. So I look forward to today's data so we can see how Shadow and Black Toe and others want to over-ride their denial.

To be fair black_spidey, Black Toe and Shadow arent in denial. The numbers for 546 sales have been in for a while (that being the january numbers.) Last i checked they arent going up, because all new sales arent in january. Basically you are arguing about a sell out now. Fact is BND issue #1's numbers are in and they were good. I still say wait to see what March #s look like and then Aprils. Perhaps we can glean some knowledge of BND success from that. Seems more like the anti-BND crowd wants to pin free issues on january sales, From what Ron has just said its a re-order promotion, which means its not part of the sales figures weve seen. (perhaps im wrong but, Ron do you recall getting free copies of 546-548 when they first shipped?)

[black_spidey728]

To be fair black_spidey, Black Toe and Shadow arent in denial. The numbers for 546 sales have been in for a while (that being the january numbers.) Last i checked they arent going up, because all new sales arent in january. Basically you are arguing about a sell out now. Fact is BND issue #1's numbers are in and they were good. I still say wait to see what March #s look like and then Aprils. Perhaps we can glean some knowledge of BND success from that. Seems more like the anti-BND crowd wants to pin free issues on january sales, From what Ron has just said its a re-order promotion, which means its not part of the sales figures weve seen. (perhaps im wrong but, Ron do you recall getting free copies of 546-548 when they first shipped?)

Honestly, the discussion was never about BND #1. This started with it being discovered that free issues were sent out with re-orders. The inference is that these issuws were sent out to boost numbers. The #'s for ASM 545 were approx 128,000. The numbers for the next issue dropped down so it stands to reason that an edict was sent to send free copies to boost numbers so that the decrease wouldn't be so great.

Now before people have a coronary...that is speculation, but it makes sense based on the data Ron provided. And if Marvel did it once, it stands to reason they'd do it again.

[black_spidey728]

Geez Black Toe, just because you don't like what I'm saying, you don't have to cuss at me and insult my intellegence.

[Mister Mets]

This sounds like denial. I should know, because I just went through it when Mary Jane vanished from the Amazing Spider-man books.

There was a confirmed Marvel promotion. I spoke with my Diamond sales rep and they confirmed it: there was, in fact, a promotion in March to give out a free copy of ASM #546 for each re-order of a Brand New Day back-issue. I will attempt to acquire documented proof of the promotion details, so that there should be no remaining doubt as to its validity.

I saw the $#@%-storm on this coming in November, so I ordered "subscribers-only" on ASM releasing in January & February. When I finally had a couple of new customers request the back-issues, I re-ordered them as I would for anyone, and I was surprised to be given free books for doing so. Incidentally, neither of my two new customers chose to actually purchase all of the issues I ordered for them, opting instead to "try it out first." Both picked up only the most recent issues, leaving even me with books on the shelf.

Many LCS owners obviously never even looked at re-ordering #546, almost certainly because they still have unsold copies from their initial orders on the shelf or perhaps they simply believed what they were told in January about the books being sold out and so they never actually bothered to look. If they had tried to re-order, they would have noticed (as I did) that the first printing was mysteriously still available for re-order, as was every other BND issue. Also, if they had re-ordered any of those issues, which they obviously didn't (again, most likely because the books are probably still sitting there in the store), then they would have likely gotten free copies of ASM #546, as I did. It should be noted that it is also quite possible that this promotion was restricted to the United States only, meaning people in Saskatchewan couldn't possibly know even the first thing about it.

When I arrive at my shop in the morning, around 10am PST, I will upload screen shots of Diamond's re-order website. These images should clearly prove to anyone of a reasonable intelligence who doubts my claim that ASM #546 is even now readily available for purchase by retailers, in both first and second printings. Also, as I said above, I will attempt to locate hard proof on the details of the promotion whereby I received the free books. When I do, I will post that as well.

That all being stated, I'd like to explore the definition of the term "sold out" for a moment, because it seems to me that this is the point where Shadow and I fundamentally disagree. To me, sold out means "sold out." They were all sold. People bought every last one. There are no more left because the total number of purchases equalled or exceeded the total supply. Is this definition even arguable?

It doesn't matter if the "mystery" books were set aside and earmarked for a future promotion, innocently forgotten and lost in a warehouse somewhere, trapped in a pocket dimension, whatever... they did not sell out. Nobody has purchased them yet. These books are clearly still available and are simply NOT sold out, and any statements to the contrary, as were made in January in a conveniently timed press release and here again by Shadow are factually untrue.If the books were set aside and earmarked for a future promotion, what did Marvel do wrong?


I just threw this quote in because it's funny to me.It was not addressed to you.

[Mister Mets]

Sorry, can't type as much as I'd like today to respond to some of the comments because it is WEDNESDAY and I'm slammed...

DeadXMan: Ask your LCS owner if he placed any re-orders in the last 2 weeks for ASM books. I strongly suspect that the promotion was tied to re-orders. Whatever side of the BND fence we're on, I think we'd all like to get to the bottom of "the mystery." (not my words, by the way)

I imagine sales figures for March will come out as low as 80,000 per issue or perhaps a hair under, simply because of the creative team. Gale's run didn't do Spidey any favors.

As for next week, look for ASM to remain relatively high, but not as high as February, probably around 81,000 or so. ASM #555 will come in third to Secret Invasion and Dark Tower: The Long Road Home #2 (Dark Tower is exceptional, by the way).

Fans who were disappointed with the last Spidey arc will be pleased to discover that #555 gets much better. Having just read it, I can say that it's starting to feel like a Spider-man comic again, although someone is going to scream about continuity next week and there will be a whole thread about it.

I won't spoil it though. Gotta honor the agreement. Yes, Marvel makes us agree to secrecy on certain things.I thought the term "mystery" was applicable for the thread because we really don't know what's going on, or why. Hence, it's a mystery.


Don't Diamond's direct sames numbers exclude foreign sales and pretty much any sales not to the direct market?I believe so. Otherwise the Archie books I keep seeing in supermarkets would be lighting up the sales charts.


Honestly, the discussion was never about BND #1. This started with it being discovered that free issues were sent out with re-orders. The inference is that these issuws were sent out to boost numbers. The #'s for ASM 545 were approx 128,000. The numbers for the next issue dropped down so it stands to reason that an edict was sent to send free copies to boost numbers so that the decrease wouldn't be so great.

Now before people have a coronary...that is speculation, but it makes sense based on the data Ron provided. And if Marvel did it once, it stands to reason they'd do it again.Assuming Marvel is using the free copies to boost numbers is a bit of a leap in logic, as we have no indication that they're included in the sales figures (it's possible, but we have no proof whatsoever.) It's like seeing Joe Quesada go into a comic shop, and assuming he's going to start stealing stuff.

[The Shadow]

This sounds like denial.
Not at all.

I don't give a s#!t really as long as I enjoy the stories.


There was a confirmed Marvel promotion.
Yes... meaning that the copies available to you were SOLD OUT.


I will attempt to acquire documented proof of the promotion details, so that there should be no remaining doubt as to its validity.
No need. I believe you. Always have. I just disagree with the notion that the books weren't sold out.

To me if the book is not available for reorder it's sold out.

The one thing I wonder is if the free give-away copies are included in the sales posted at icv2.


Incidentally, neither of my two new customers chose to actually purchase all of the issues I ordered for them
You should have a "You order it you buy it" policy to avoid that type of thing.


If they had tried to re-order, they would have noticed (as I did) that the first printing was mysteriously still available for re-order
Not in Canada... my LCS was desperate for first prints. Sold out immediately and never got em again except through online auctions for customers.


It should be noted that it is also quite possible that this promotion was restricted to the United States only, meaning people in Saskatchewan couldn't possibly know even the first thing about it.
Yep... as I said, my LCS had no idea about it.


That all being stated, I'd like to explore the definition of the term "sold out" for a moment, because it seems to me that this is the point where Shadow and I fundamentally disagree. To me, sold out means "sold out." They were all sold. People bought every last one. There are no more left because the total number of purchases equalled or exceeded the total supply. Is this definition even arguable?
Yes to me it is.

Because "there are no more left because the total number of purchases equaled or exceeded the total supply" available to customers (retailers). There were issues unavailable to you... but the available copies sold out.


It doesn't matter if the "mystery" books were set aside and earmarked for a future promotion, innocently forgotten and lost in a warehouse somewhere, trapped in a pocket dimension, whatever... they did not sell out.
Sure they did. "The total number of purchases equaled or exceeded the total supply" available to customers (retailers)".


Nobody has purchased them yet.
And nobody has purchased then still. They were given away. That's why I wonder if they are included in the sales at icv2.


These books are clearly still available and are simply NOT sold out, and any statements to the contrary, as were made in January in a conveniently timed press release and here again by Shadow are factually untrue.
:rolleyes:


I just threw this quote in because it's funny to me.
I'm a former shop owner... 1995-2000 (not the best years to own a shop). I know how Diamond works, how promotions work and how Marvel/DC do things.

[The Shadow]

And you do? Can you provide some data of your own to back up your argument?

Prove that black_spidey728's assertion that Marvel forces someone to purchase a number of issues before they cancel a subscription is crap?

Mister Metts already did.

[The Shadow]

The #'s for ASM 545 were approx 128,000. The numbers for the next issue dropped down so it stands to reason that an edict was sent to send free copies to boost numbers so that the decrease wouldn't be so great.

How does giving away an old comic help boost current sales when books are ordered two months in advance? :confused:

[The Shadow]

If the books were set aside and earmarked for a future promotion, what did Marvel do wrong?
That's what I'm trying to figure out... the books weren't available for reorder because they were set aside for a promotion.

[philly]

Prove that black_spidey728's assertion that Marvel forces someone to purchase a number of issues before they cancel a subscription is crap?

Mister Metts already did.

I'm talking about what Ron put in his post. Can you prove that his data is flawed?

[The Shadow]

I'm talking about what Ron put in his post.
But the post you quoted me on (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=6579081&postcount=157) wasn't dealing with Ron, his claims or anything. :confused: It was dealing with black_spidey728's claim that Marvel somehow FORCES subscribers to purchase a certain number of books before canceling.

What does it have to do with Ron? :confused:


Can you prove that his data is flawed?
LOL

No, but he's only working based on speculation too. I also have some experience with Marvel as I use to own a shop... so I know full well what they do and are capable of.

Well, there's that and he admitted he had no definitive proof.


Shadow,

You know as well as I do, that I can't provide the kind of 'smoking gun' proof that you are looking for. I'm basically a peon in the comics industry, completely powerless to affect anything on a larger scale than simply 'nudging' a customer toward this book or that book when they ask me what's good.
His words... not mine.

That good enough?

[philly]

But the post you quoted me on (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=6579081&postcount=157) wasn't dealing with Ron, his claims or anything. :confused: It was dealing with black_spidey728's claim that Marvel somehow FORCES subscribers to purchase a certain number of books before canceling.

What does it have to do with Ron? :confused:


LOL

No, but he's only working based on speculation too. I also have some experience with Marvel as I use to own a shop... so I know full well what they do and are capable of.

Well, there's that and he admitted he had no definitive proof.


His words... not mine.

That good enough?

My mistake on that:) , i thought you were responding to Ron. Getting back on the subject on Ron however, even if he had no definitive proof , he still provided some data to back up what he claimed is happening. Can you provide some data of your own that can dispute what he has been saying?

[Mister Mets]

My mistake on that:) , i thought you were responding to Ron. Getting back on the subject on Ron however, even if he had no definitive proof , he still provided some data to back up what he claimed is happening. Can you provide some data of your own that can dispute what he has been saying?This gets into the "How do you prove a negative?" category. All we can do is look at the information Ron has, and poke holes in his theory.

[philly]

This gets into the "How do you prove a negative?" category. All we can do is look at the information Ron has, and poke holes in his theory.

Ron still provided some data for what he believes is going on. Can anybody who is disputing what he has been saying do the same?

[Baron Banter]

so I ordered "subscribers-only" on ASM releasing in January & February. You know, I don't ask the owner of a store about the books I want he doesn't have. I just get annoyed and buy the books that are on the shelf that I want.

Of course I have the history of asking a store owner circa 1989 if I started a pull list would he order me the Gladstone Disney Comics that he refused to stock and his answer was no.

Hence my reliance mainly on mailorder/internet for my comics ever since.

Its probably a sad fact that I celebrated when I noticed that comic shop(It was about 40 minutes from me) was no more like three years ago. When I actually do go to a store I go to the one that's over an hour away. Found it after I had already started using Mile High Comics NICE service so it never became my main source for new comics. Although I've since moved to mailordercomics.com. Now if that store an hour away offered a discount I'd be tempted to switch to them.

[Mister Mets]

Ron still provided some data for what he believes is going on. Can anybody who is disputing what he has been saying do the same?We're not disputing the data, we're disputing the conclusions.

[philly]

We're not disputing the data, we're disputing the conclusions.

Fair enough but can you provide some data to back up your arguments as well? You can punch holes in any theory but can you give those holes credibility with some data of your own? ( I hope that made sense:) )

[ShaggyB]

Honestly, the discussion was never about BND #1. This started with it being discovered that free issues were sent out with re-orders. The inference is that these issuws were sent out to boost numbers. The #'s for ASM 545 were approx 128,000. The numbers for the next issue dropped down so it stands to reason that an edict was sent to send free copies to boost numbers so that the decrease wouldn't be so great.

Now before people have a coronary...that is speculation, but it makes sense based on the data Ron provided. And if Marvel did it once, it stands to reason they'd do it again.

Id agree if we had free issues of all the first of the month BNDs turning up. To me its free issue #1's well after the tally of issue #1 is done.

Im not seeing a giant number flub here, I am thinking less people are buying more ASM than before considering the number trend weve seen.

[black_spidey728]

Fair enough but can you provide some data to back up your arguments as well? You can punch holes in any theory but can you give those holes credibility with some data of your own? ( I hope that made sense:) )

Right, you're more than welcome to tell us we're wrong and you think we're coming to incorrect conclusions but have something to back up why I'm wrong.

[ShaggyB]

Fair enough but can you provide some data to back up your arguments as well? You can punch holes in any theory but can you give those holes credibility with some data of your own? ( I hope that made sense:) )

Other than the fact that the 128k number was released well before the reorder of the 546 issues happened. Ron could check the time of the promotion. It has been 3 months sense the first issue of BND.

Im confused on where the proof is that these free issues are part of the 128k sold number.

[black_spidey728]

Prove that black_spidey728's assertion that Marvel forces someone to purchase a number of issues before they cancel a subscription is crap?

Mister Metts already did.

Well he didn't actually prove anything, he just gave his opinion, in reference to subscriptions at his LCS. I'm dealing with subs from Marvel. And the information came from actual subscribers of ASM and was discussed adnauseum over on the Marvel boards. Enough people were telling the same story so it was taken at face value. AS I STATED BEFORE, I'M NOT A SUBSCRIBER BECAUSE I GET MY BOOKS FROM DIAMOND DIRECT at a deeper discount.

[black_spidey728]

Other than the fact that the 128k number was released well before the reorder of the 546 issues happened. Ron could check the time of the promotion. It has been 3 months sense the first issue of BND.

Im confused on where the proof is that these free issues are part of the 128k sold number.


OK here we go...

The 128k were the sales for ASM 545, nobody has provided any data showing that any free books were attached to it. The free books wre attached to ASM #546, the "proof" is remember that a set of number was released by Diamond. Then suppossedly THERE WAS SOME KIND OF COMPUTER GLITCH WHICH LED TO THE NUMBER HAVING TO BE RECALCULATED. I think this was done to accomodate the free issues being sent out. Again this is just me and my theory based on what I've gleaned.

[ronnieramone]

You really don't know how the business works do you?

I just threw this quote in because it's funny to me.

It was not addressed to you.

Yeah, I know. I still think it's a funny statement to make coming from someone who doesn't seem to understand what "selling out" of a book means.

It does not mean this:
http://www.niklbag.com/ASM546-3.jpg

Do you see where both printings are still available? Note that the code on the first printing is OCT072076, meaning it was solicited in for initial orders in October. Just in case there is still any doubt, let's click for more details.

http://www.niklbag.com/ASM546-4.jpg

Yep. That sure looks like the ASM #546 first printing is still available and NOT sold out. And before anyone even brings it up, I'll pre-empt the predictable, forthcoming argument that I didn't perform a search on in stock and available items. I did. Any items that are not available and are in fact, sold out, do not appear on this list.

This doesn't even seem like an intellectual debate anymore. It looks more like a couple of people being very stubborn and saying that down is up and gravity is a myth just because they want to fly.

Please admit it already. The first printing did not sell out. Marvel and Diamond quite obviously manipulated the data to make people think that it did in order to generate positive press. This is not a "jump" in logic. This is the only conclusion that makes any sense whatsoever.

[ShaggyB]

OK here we go...

The 128k were the sales for ASM 545, nobody has provided any data showing that any free books were attached to it. The free books wre attached to ASM #546, the "proof" is remember that a set of number was released by Diamond. Then suppossedly THERE WAS SOME KIND OF COMPUTER GLITCH WHICH LED TO THE NUMBER HAVING TO BE RECALCULATED. I think this was done to accomodate the free issues being sent out. Again this is just me and my theory based on what I've gleaned.

my fault typed the wrong number. 546 issue #1 of BND. I dont recall the glitch fiasco. link me?

Likewise explain the other 5 issues #s if you believe it to be flubbed. It still does within the average of a monthly spidey title for last year. (least 1st issue of the month) and combined it still does better than the 3 books combined before BND.

[carabas]

You know, I don't ask the owner of a store about the books I want he doesn't have.If I didn't do that, I'd miss half my pull list at least once a month. Speak up for yourself. Tell your shopkeeper to order the books you want to read, or at least reorder them. It's his frelling job.

[ShaggyB]

Please admit it already. The first printing did not sell out. Marvel and Diamond quite obviously manipulated the data to make people think that it did in order to generate positive press. This is not a "jump" in logic. This is the only conclusion that makes any sense whatsoever.

Well considering i never said it was.... But yeah thats pretty good to show that its not. Im just more curious about the free offer

[Baron Banter]

Speak up for yourself.LOL. I've been told to do that for so long... I drove my older sister nuts when we were gowing up because I never would speak up. Never complain... Just take the punches and roll with them... I was the bullied. Only threw one punch in my life. But was repeatedly picked on... Or what I always envisioned the typical comic book reader... ;)

[nacho_bidness]

Ronnie, we appreciate all the insights and data. Regardless of any debates about the conclusions one could draw from the data (although I tend to agree with you), the data is valuable nonetheless. It's more concrete than anything else we see on the forums. It's been really common for all of us to see "sold out" items clogging shelves, but we always attributed it to the fact that it was "sold out" at the distributor level, not the retail level. However, the idea of artificially manufacturing a sell-out (either by Marvel or Diamond) is something I haven't run across (maybe it happens a lot and I just haven't noticed).

Maybe it's considered "all's fair" to lie to consumers and retailers as a marketing tactic. This to me is worse than the false Flash solits from DC last year. In theory, that was an attempt to keep from spoiling a story, not for the sake of over-hyping a book they feared would be poorly received. I don't know that Marvel knew how the book would sell, but Marvel is not so blind to think that shoehorning a seemingly unpopular idea onto the company's premiere character wouldn't carry a fair amount of risk. While we have no way to prove who really did this or their intent, I certainly wouldn't put it past Marvel to try something like this. If 6-12 months pass and this whole ASM direction is a flop, there will be lots of crow to eat at Joey Q's office, so it's not a big leap to think they had a hand in artificially creating the "sell out".

[Baron Banter]

http://www.niklbag.com/ASM546-3.jpg


Boy would I love to know the justification for Mile High Comics $10 regular price for 545...

[Baron Banter]

BTW, how far back can you reorder? Since MHC is also charging regular price of 10 for 544 and $8 for 543...

[black_spidey728]

my fault typed the wrong number. 546 issue #1 of BND. I dont recall the glitch fiasco. link me?

Likewise explain the other 5 issues #s if you believe it to be flubbed. It still does within the average of a monthly spidey title for last year. (least 1st issue of the month) and combined it still does better than the 3 books combined before BND.

Here you go! I skipped luch to find this for you so you owe me one.
:D
http://www.marvel.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=109257

I'm pretty sure the original January numbers got released in February with the restatement coming March.

[ShaggyB]

Here you go! I skipped luch to find this for you so you owe me one.
:D
http://www.marvel.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=109257

I'm pretty sure the original January numbers got released in February with the restatement coming March.

well i didnt mean for you to skip lunch and this doesnt help your case much.

"March 04, 2008
A technical glitch in Diamond Comic Distributors' computer system resulted in incorrect information that led to the inflation of January's direct market sales figures. Corrected figures are now available and rather than the previously reported 7% gain in periodical sales, they were actually just up 1% over January 2007, while graphic novels were up a modest 3%, not the gaudy 17% that was previously reported. Still nine comic titles sold over 100,000 copies (versus just six in December) and periodical sales did outpace (however slightly) a strong January of 2007, which posted a 26% gain over January of 2006.


March 04, 2008
A technical glitch in Diamond Comic Distributors' computer system resulted in incorrect information that inflated the circulations of some titles more than others and resulted in ICv2 incorrectly designating Amazing Spider-Man #546 as the best-selling comic book release in January. In fact, Jeph Loeb and Ed McGuiness' Hulk #1 was the number one title in January with total sales of around 134,000.


Here are ICv2's estimates of the sales by Diamond Comic Distributors to comic stores on the top [10] comic titles in January:

134,002 Hulk #1
127,958 Amazing Spider-Man #546
127,626 Captain America #34
113,191 Project Superpowers #0
107,631 Astonishing X-Men #24
105,520 Uncanny X-Men #494
105,070 Ultimates 3 #2
104,793 X-Men 207
101,213 Amazing Spider-Man #547
97,959 Amazing Spider-Man #548 "

Basically they reported a 7% sales increase that was really only a 1% meaning less total books sold than they thought. But after the correction, BND was no longer the number 1 book, its numbers stayed the same and Red Hulk went up.

[black_spidey728]

well i didnt mean for you to skip lunch and this doesnt help your case much.

"March 04, 2008
A technical glitch in Diamond Comic Distributors' computer system resulted in incorrect information that led to the inflation of January's direct market sales figures. Corrected figures are now available and rather than the previously reported 7% gain in periodical sales, they were actually just up 1% over January 2007, while graphic novels were up a modest 3%, not the gaudy 17% that was previously reported. Still nine comic titles sold over 100,000 copies (versus just six in December) and periodical sales did outpace (however slightly) a strong January of 2007, which posted a 26% gain over January of 2006.


March 04, 2008
A technical glitch in Diamond Comic Distributors' computer system resulted in incorrect information that inflated the circulations of some titles more than others and resulted in ICv2 incorrectly designating Amazing Spider-Man #546 as the best-selling comic book release in January. In fact, Jeph Loeb and Ed McGuiness' Hulk #1 was the number one title in January with total sales of around 134,000.


Here are ICv2's estimates of the sales by Diamond Comic Distributors to comic stores on the top [10] comic titles in January:

134,002 Hulk #1
127,958 Amazing Spider-Man #546
127,626 Captain America #34
113,191 Project Superpowers #0
107,631 Astonishing X-Men #24
105,520 Uncanny X-Men #494
105,070 Ultimates 3 #2
104,793 X-Men 207
101,213 Amazing Spider-Man #547
97,959 Amazing Spider-Man #548 "

Basically they reported a 7% sales increase that was really only a 1% meaning less total books sold than they thought. But after the correction, BND was no longer the number 1 book, its numbers stayed the same and Red Hulk went up.

What do you mena the #'s stayed the same? There was like a 30,000 book correction. Who knows what it would have been sans the free copies (I firmly believe that Marvel knew before hand it was going to ship out free books and built them into the numbers). Bottom line is whatever conclusion you wanna draw, you have to admit that something fishy is going on.

Plus you asked to be linked, so I linked you!

[ronnieramone]

I checked through my e-mail to find proof of the promotion and found a snag:

"This message is privileged, confidential and intended for the addressee only."

So, I can't really copy the details of these direct communications without getting in potentially serious trouble.

I'm debating whether I can give out any more information to you guys without getting royally screwed. I think you're just going to have to take my word for some things at this point, because I'm not prepared to jeopardize my business just to prove a point on a message board.

I've already identified myself publicly, so I have no anonymity at this point, and therefore no protection if Marvel should come after me for what I'm posting here. I could lose my Diamond account, I could end up in (more) legal webs, etc. I said before there were some things I simply can't discuss, and I may have to just stop posting now. I'm not trying to be melodramatic either. This is serious stuff. Hopefully, though, everyone at Marvel is so busy witch-hunting marvel_b0y they won't even bat an eye at a lone wolf retailer like me stuck out here in the desert.

Please understand that what I have revealed to you all as a retailer, much like what Joe Quesada has done as EiC, is done out of love for these characters and these books. I so desperately want the Spider-man books to be of the highest quality and as successful as possible, that I sometimes get carried away. I also really don't like being lied to by my business associates. I knew about the incorrect sales estimates given out in January that inaccurately made ASM #546 the top book, and I thought it was suspicious even before I received the first printings of ASM #546.

I am starting to see a pattern emerging in the sales figures, and even I don't really like the conclusions it leads to. I want Amazing Spider-man to be the best-selling book on the market. I just don't agree that this new direction is the best way to achieve that.

[ShaggyB]

What do you mena the #'s stayed the same? There was like a 30,000 book correction. Who knows what it would have been sans the free copies (I firmly believe that Marvel knew before hand it was going to ship out free books and built them into the numbers). Bottom line is whatever conclusion you wanna draw, you have to admit that something fishy is going on.

Plus you asked to be linked, so I linked you!

because the corrections were made and you can read the numbers now. They didnt go up for Spidey. They went up for hulk and over all everything was projected 6% higher in sales than it truely was.

According to what you posted they were wrong about spidey BND #1 being the best selling book, it was Hulk #1 and the numbers have been corrected.

Doesnt seem like spidey gained anything in that. Sounds more like either spidey lost some sales or Hulk gained some.

[ShaggyB]

I am starting to see a pattern emerging in the sales figures, and even I don't really like the conclusions it leads to. I want Amazing Spider-man to be the best-selling book on the market. I just don't agree that this new direction is the best way to achieve that.

Here lets look at the numbers

Feb08: ASM #551 BND = 88,084
Feb08: ASM #550 BND = 90,874
Feb08: ASM #549 BND = 101,112
Jan08: ASM #548 BND = 97,959
Jan08: ASM #547 BND = 101,213
Jan08: ASM #546 BND = 127,958
Dec07: ASM #545 OMD = 124,481
Sep07: ASM #544 OMD = 146,215
Aug07: ASM #543 BIB = 106,485
Jul07: ASM #542 BIB = 105,715
Jun07: ASM #541 BIB = 108,284
May07: ASM #540 BIB = 119,662
Apr07: No issue, only reprint of BIB issue
Mar07: ASM #539 BIB = 137,730
Feb07: ASM #538 CW = 142,956
Jan07: ASM #537 CW = 114,802
Dec06: reprint of CW issue
Nov06: ASM #536 CW = 118,833
Oct06: reprint of CW issue
Sep06: ASM #535 CW = 117,056
Aug06: reprint of CW issue
Jul06: ASM #534 CW = 113,522
Jun06: ASM #533 CW = 112,982
May06: ASM #532 = 95,544
Apr06: ASM #531 = 86,884
Mar06: ASM #530 = 89,874
Feb06: ASM #529 = 90,414
Jan06: ASM #528 = 95,415

Ok thats two years of spidey monthly sales from http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/1850.html

Why 2, because spidey has been in Huge story crossovers for a year.

Ok so what can be seen from said numbers is..... Spidey outside of crossovers and special events sells under 100k but above 80k.

Now consider what you want to with BND but id say it falls in line with those sales.

Edit: An also yeah dont get yourself in trouble. Everyone do him a favor and delete direct quotes made from him.

[Shade 20x6]

Here lets look at the numbers

Feb08: ASM #551 BND = 88,084
Feb08: ASM #550 BND = 90,874
Feb08: ASM #549 BND = 101,112
Jan08: ASM #548 BND = 97,959
Jan08: ASM #547 BND = 101,213
Jan08: ASM #546 BND = 127,958
Dec07: ASM #545 OMD = 124,481
Sep07: ASM #544 OMD = 146,215
Aug07: ASM #543 BIB = 106,485
Jul07: ASM #542 BIB = 105,715
Jun07: ASM #541 BIB = 108,284
May07: ASM #540 BIB = 119,662
Apr07: No issue, only reprint of BIB issue
Mar07: ASM #539 BIB = 137,730
Feb07: ASM #538 CW = 142,956
Jan07: ASM #537 CW = 114,802
Dec06: reprint of CW issue
Nov06: ASM #536 CW = 118,833
Oct06: reprint of CW issue
Sep06: ASM #535 CW = 117,056
Aug06: reprint of CW issue
Jul06: ASM #534 CW = 113,522
Jun06: ASM #533 CW = 112,982
May06: ASM #532 = 95,544
Apr06: ASM #531 = 86,884
Mar06: ASM #530 = 89,874
Feb06: ASM #529 = 90,414
Jan06: ASM #528 = 95,415

Ok thats two years of spidey monthly sales from http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/1850.html

Why 2, because spidey has been in Huge story crossovers for a year.

Ok so what can be seen from said numbers is..... Spidey outside of crossovers and special events sells under 100k but above 80k.

Now consider what you want to with BND but id say it falls in line with those sales.

If you'll notice, there wasn't a huge margin of difference between those pre-CW issues that are evident with BND. In only two months, sales have dropped by 39,874 people. And it will likely get worse over the next couple of months, especially since March's arc was relatively poorly received.

The only thing that may make sales stabilize or even increase at this point is the return of classic villains.

[ShaggyB]

If you'll notice, there wasn't a huge margin of difference between those pre-CW issues that are evident with BND. In only two months, sales have dropped by 39,874 people. And it will likely get worse over the next couple of months, especially since March's arc was relatively poorly received.

The only thing that may make sales stabilize or even increase at this point is the return of classic villains.

possibly true but if you look at the 06 numbers before civil war and compare them to BND, its business as usual. Though i agree 2 more months of sales should tell the story

[philly]

Yeah, I know. I still think it's a funny statement to make coming from someone who doesn't seem to understand what "selling out" of a book means.

It does not mean this:
http://www.niklbag.com/ASM546-3.jpg

Do you see where both printings are still available? Note that the code on the first printing is OCT072076, meaning it was solicited in for initial orders in October. Just in case there is still any doubt, let's click for more details.

http://www.niklbag.com/ASM546-4.jpg

Yep. That sure looks like the ASM #546 first printing is still available and NOT sold out. And before anyone even brings it up, I'll pre-empt the predictable, forthcoming argument that I didn't perform a search on in stock and available items. I did. Any items that are not available and are in fact, sold out, do not appear on this list.

This doesn't even seem like an intellectual debate anymore. It looks more like a couple of people being very stubborn and saying that down is up and gravity is a myth just because they want to fly.

Please admit it already. The first printing did not sell out. Marvel and Diamond quite obviously manipulated the data to make people think that it did in order to generate positive press. This is not a "jump" in logic. This is the only conclusion that makes any sense whatsoever.

Thank a lot for your input, its very eye opening.

[black_spidey728]

I checked through my e-mail to find proof of the promotion and found a snag:

"This message is privileged, confidential and intended for the addressee only."

So, I can't really copy the details of these direct communications without getting in potentially serious trouble.

I'm debating whether I can give out any more information to you guys without getting royally screwed. I think you're just going to have to take my word for some things at this point, because I'm not prepared to jeopardize my business just to prove a point on a message board.

I've already identified myself publicly, so I have no anonymity at this point, and therefore no protection if Marvel should come after me for what I'm posting here. I could lose my Diamond account, I could end up in (more) legal webs, etc. I said before there were some things I simply can't discuss, and I may have to just stop posting now. I'm not trying to be melodramatic either. This is serious stuff. Hopefully, though, everyone at Marvel is so busy witch-hunting marvel_b0y they won't even bat an eye at a lone wolf retailer like me stuck out here in the desert.

Please understand that what I have revealed to you all as a retailer, much like what Joe Quesada has done as EiC, is done out of love for these characters and these books. I so desperately want the Spider-man books to be of the highest quality and as successful as possible, that I sometimes get carried away. I also really don't like being lied to by my business associates. I knew about the incorrect sales estimates given out in January that inaccurately made ASM #546 the top book, and I thought it was suspicious even before I received the first printings of ASM #546.

I am starting to see a pattern emerging in the sales figures, and even I don't really like the conclusions it leads to. I want Amazing Spider-man to be the best-selling book on the market. I just don't agree that this new direction is the best way to achieve that.

Dude, you have done more than your fair share and provided us with some great information. Don't do anything that will jeopardize your business/livelyhood. Just keep plugging away with the info you can give us, it is much appreciated. And yes, the ones of us that don't have blinders on can see whats going on here. Marvel is doing whatever necessary to fudge the numbers to make this book a success. If the book is sucessful, hooray for the book and Marvel, they made the right call; but either way just let the book suceed or fail on its own merit. They've already pissed on us fans by messing with the last 20 years of our emotional and financial investment. They don't need to add insult to injury by treating us like we're stupid and don't realize they're cooking the sales numbers

[philly]

I checked through my e-mail to find proof of the promotion and found a snag:

"This message is privileged, confidential and intended for the addressee only."

So, I can't really copy the details of these direct communications without getting in potentially serious trouble.

I'm debating whether I can give out any more information to you guys without getting royally screwed. I think you're just going to have to take my word for some things at this point, because I'm not prepared to jeopardize my business just to prove a point on a message board.

I've already identified myself publicly, so I have no anonymity at this point, and therefore no protection if Marvel should come after me for what I'm posting here. I could lose my Diamond account, I could end up in (more) legal webs, etc. I said before there were some things I simply can't discuss, and I may have to just stop posting now. I'm not trying to be melodramatic either. This is serious stuff. Hopefully, though, everyone at Marvel is so busy witch-hunting marvel_b0y they won't even bat an eye at a lone wolf retailer like me stuck out here in the desert.

Please understand that what I have revealed to you all as a retailer, much like what Joe Quesada has done as EiC, is done out of love for these characters and these books. I so desperately want the Spider-man books to be of the highest quality and as successful as possible, that I sometimes get carried away. I also really don't like being lied to by my business associates. I knew about the incorrect sales estimates given out in January that inaccurately made ASM #546 the top book, and I thought it was suspicious even before I received the first printings of ASM #546.

I am starting to see a pattern emerging in the sales figures, and even I don't really like the conclusions it leads to. I want Amazing Spider-man to be the best-selling book on the market. I just don't agree that this new direction is the best way to achieve that.

You don't need to prove yourself any more and i can understand what you mean. You make a lot of great points and despite what some of the distractors arguments are, they have not been able to prove that you are wrong or if they are right. Thank you for the info you have given.

[Mister Mets]

You don't need to prove yourself any more and i can understand what you mean. You make a lot of great points and despite what some of the distractors arguments are, they have not been able to prove that you are wrong or if they are right. Thank you for the info you have given. There's a phrase "innocent until proven guilty." ronnieromane has yet to prove guilt. We don't have to prove innocence, just that his conclusions may not be perfect.

[black_spidey728]

There's a phrase "innocent before proven guilty." ronnieromane has yet to prove guilt. We don't have to prove innocence, just that his conclusions may not be perfect.

It's actually "innocnt until proven guilty. So OK, if his conclusions are faulty what would you say is the conclusion that can be drwawn? I'm curious!!

[The Shadow]

It's actually "innocnt until proven guilty.
Yes, and all he has is circumstantial evidence that is in no way proof.

He has a theory that fits with the way he's presenting it. That's all.

That's why innocent people go to jail... because the prosecution argues better than the defense and we haven't heard anything from Marvel.


if his conclusions are faulty what would you say is the conclusion that can be drwawn? I'm curious!!
I have one!

That Marvel printed books based on initial orders (do they still not overprint books?) but overprinted this one for a giveaway promotion. Those initial orders sold out as they said. They went with a variant cover second printing because the initial order sold out.

They still had the reserve first print copies held back for the give away. They gave them away.

Could/should they have told people they were doing this? Perhaps. But regardless I don't think those giveaway issues are included in the icv2 numbers for January.

Conspiracy? Only in... the TWILIGHT ZONE...... *cue creepy music*

[Mister Mets]

It's actually "innocnt until proven guilty. So OK, if his conclusions are faulty what would you say is the conclusion that can be drwawn? I'm curious!!My bad on the typo.

My chief argument is that we don't have enough information to reach any conclusion, so it'd be hypocritical to suggest which ones can be drwawn.

There are all sorts of possibilities.

1) Marvel kept a certain amount of the overprint of AMS 546 to be used for promotional purposes, and reported a sell out when stores asked for more copies (and if a certain # of copies weren't available to stores at the moment, then it is still a sellout). Meanwhile Diamond had a computing error that resulted in ASM's sales being overexisted, or Hulk's sales being underestimated (the latter isn't a tragedy for Marvel, because it really looks good for them to have the Hulk be a #1 book the year the movie comes out.) And Marvel subscriptions didn't want to deal with the hassle of canceling subscriptions on a thrice-monthly book when it takes months to process, especially with the current discount, which might make it hard to figure out how many issues someone's entitled to if the reader could choose a new title to subscribe to.

2) It's a massive conspiracy of people at Marvel going as high up as Quesada manipulating numbers in order to inflate the January 2008 sales records, and other stuff.


Yes, and all he has is circumstantial evidence that is in no way proof.

He has a theory that fits with the way he's presenting it. That's all.

That's why innocent people go to jail... because the prosecution argues better than the defense and we haven't heard anything from Marvel.Do we need to hear anything from Marvel? I'd hope most of the people involved have better stuff to do than correct these types of misperceptions.

[philly]

There's a phrase "innocent before proven guilty." ronnieromane has yet to prove guilt. We don't have to prove innocence, just that his conclusions may not be perfect.

True, Ron does not have a smoking gun but he does have some data to at least support his side of the argument. Do you have some as well to support yours? Yes, you can say that you are just questioning the conclusions given but can you provide reasonable doubt that can counter what was given by Ron?

[philly]

Yes, and all he has is circumstantial evidence that is in no way proof.

You're right but he still gave some data that supports what he believes is going on.

[black_spidey728]

My bad on the typo.

My chief argument is that we don't have enough information to reach any conclusion, so it'd be hypocritical to suggest which ones can be drwawn.

There are all sorts of possibilities.

1) Marvel kept a certain amount of the overprint of AMS 546 to be used for promotional purposes, and reported a sell out when stores asked for more copies (and if a certain # of copies weren't available to stores at the moment, then it is still a sellout). Meanwhile Diamond had a computing error that resulted in ASM's sales being overexisted, or Hulk's sales being underestimated (the latter isn't a tragedy for Marvel, because it really looks good for them to have the Hulk be a #1 book the year the movie comes out.) And Marvel subscriptions didn't want to deal with the hassle of canceling subscriptions on a thrice-monthly book when it takes months to process, especially with the current discount, which might make it hard to figure out how many issues someone's entitled to if the reader could choose a new title to subscribe to.

2) It's a massive conspiracy of people at Marvel going as high up as Quesada manipulating numbers in order to inflate the January 2008 sales records, and other stuff.

Do we need to hear anything from Marvel? I'd hope most of the people involved have better stuff to do than correct these types of misperceptions.

OK, that's fine stop right there. WE agree that #2 is a possibility. If you aren't on the side of completely believing the theory. Just believing it's possible is cool with me, unlike some others that despite some pretty compelling (albeit circumstantial) evidence won't even consider that something crooked might be up.

[black_spidey728]

Yes, and all he has is circumstantial evidence that is in no way proof.

He has a theory that fits with the way he's presenting it. That's all.

That's why innocent people go to jail... because the prosecution argues better than the defense and we haven't heard anything from Marvel.


I have one!

That Marvel printed books based on initial orders (do they still not overprint books?) but overprinted this one for a giveaway promotion. Those initial orders sold out as they said. They went with a variant cover second printing because the initial order sold out.

They still had the reserve first print copies held back for the give away. They gave them away.

Could/should they have told people they were doing this? Perhaps. But regardless I don't think those giveaway issues are included in the icv2 numbers for January.

Conspiracy? Only in... the TWILIGHT ZONE...... *cue creepy music*

..."sigh", fine...just remember, you can get a warrant with "circumstantial evidence.

[philly]

OK, that's fine stop right there. WE agree that #2 is a possibility. If you aren't on the side of completely believing the theory. Just believing it's possible is cool with me, unlike some others that despite some pretty compelling (albeit circumstantial) evidence won't even consider that something crooked might be up.

Great post, i agree completely:) While its all circumstantial, it can't be dismissed as some are trying to do.

[nacho_bidness]

Yes, and all he has is circumstantial evidence that is in no way proof.


No one is saying that he has indisputable proof. He's merely stating the fact that the book is not sold out as Diamond/Marvel told everyone and provided proof of that fact. He can still buy the book = NOT sold out.

Then he goes on to provide a theory about what he thinks is going on. He think someone, possibly Marvel, is cooking the numbers to provide hype for a book that they feared would not be well-received. No one is saying that this is the case for certain, merely an educated hypothesis based on the facts provided.

What exactly are you arguing with? If you don't agree with his theory, fine. If you have a better theory, those of us that have read 15 pages of arguments would entertain it. However, continuing to question without additional facts or theories of your own is somewhat pointless.

[ronnieramone]

If it's a trial you guys want, then let's not beat around the bush. I have certainly provided enough evidence, both circumstantial as well as definitive, to prove Marvel's guilt in this case beyond a reasonable doubt. Which explanation makes more sense? That Marvel intentionally withheld a specific number of copies of a book that was selling out in January in order to GIVE THEM AWAY FOR FREE several months later when they could have SOLD THEM FOR PROFIT...

As a business that would make ZERO sense.
... or, that the books didn't sell, there was no prolonged or additional demand for them, and instead of admitting that they weren't selling, Marvel and/or Diamond stashed them away (to unload quietly later on) in order to CLAIM a sell-out and create positive buzz on a title that was getting a huge negative backlash at the time?

Which argument holds water?

There is a precedent for the practice of withholding supply to increase demand. It is most commonly used today in the oil industry to drive up gasoline prices, and it was most famously used in the power & electric industry, as evidenced by the Enron scandal. When these deceptive practices are utilized in the comics industry, however, they directly attack the retailer. It is the retailer, not the consumer or the manufacturer, who is saddled with the burden of financial risk. To further confuse the facts of this case, Diamond claims that a "glitch" had taken place in sales figures for January and that they weren't overall as high as was initially projected. This is an extremely suspicious coincidence, to say the least.

We have seen definitive proof that Marvel and/or Diamond had (and still has) copies of ASM #546 that they did not sell. The obtuse rhetoric that the books were factually "sold out" simply because they weren't "available" when it has been established that they were and still are available, and that the books were being "reserved" for a little-publicized giveaway promotion rather than being sold according to a presumed demand for real profit, is a thin defense that strains credulity, even according to one of its proponents' own earlier statements.

I conclude that Marvel and/or Diamond lied about selling out of their supply of Amazing Spider-man #546. They had a motive: to increase demand for their product by limiting and withholding supply while nullifying negative publicity about an editorial decision that they knew in advance would be controversial. They failed to establish any alibi whatsoever, being wholly unable to effectively dispose of their overstock of the issue through subsequent promotional efforts. Sales figures for the month of January were falsely given, then later admitted to and adjusted, at a time well after focus had shifted away from Brand New Day and their deceptive goal had been accomplished. Marvel is guilty of deliberately using deceptive marketing in order to exaggerate their sales at the direct expense of retailers. If they cannot adequately explain their actions, then they need to be held accountable for them. I demand nothing less than full returnability on all copies of Brand New Day that remain unsold in comic retail outlets everywhere.

The prosecution rests, your honor.

[Shade 20x6]

If it's a trial you guys want, then let's not beat around the bush. I have certainly provided enough evidence, both circumstantial as well as definitive, to prove Marvel's guilt in this case beyond a reasonable doubt. Which explanation makes more sense? That Marvel intentionally withheld a specific number of copies of a book that was selling out in January in order to GIVE THEM AWAY FOR FREE several months later when they could have SOLD THEM FOR PROFIT...

... or, that the books didn't sell, there was no prolonged or additional demand for them, and instead of admitting that they weren't selling, Marvel and/or Diamond stashed them away (to unload quietly later on) in order to CLAIM a sell-out and create positive buzz on a title that was getting a huge negative backlash at the time?

Which argument holds water?

There is a precedent for the practice of withholding supply to increase demand. It is most commonly used today in the oil industry to drive up gasoline prices, and it was most famously used in the power & electric industry, as evidenced by the Enron scandal. When these deceptive practices are utilized in the comics industry, however, they directly attack the retailer. It is the retailer, not the consumer or the manufacturer, who is saddled with the burden of financial risk. To further confuse the facts of this case, Diamond claims that a "glitch" had taken place in sales figures for January and that they weren't overall as high as was initially projected. This is an extremely suspicious coincidence, to say the least.

We have seen definitive proof that Marvel and/or Diamond had (and still has) copies of ASM #546 that they did not sell. The obtuse rhetoric that the books were factually "sold out" simply because they weren't "available" when it has been established that they were and still are available, and that the books were being "reserved" for a little-publicized giveaway promotion rather than being sold according to a presumed demand for real profit, is a thin defense that strains credulity, even according to one of its proponents' own earlier statements.

I conclude that Marvel and/or Diamond lied about selling out of their supply of Amazing Spider-man #546. They had a motive: to increase demand for their product by limiting and withholding supply while nullifying negative publicity about an editorial decision that they knew in advance would be controversial. They failed to establish any alibi whatsoever, being wholly unable to effectively dispose of their overstock of the issue through subsequent promotional efforts. Sales figures for the month of January were falsely given, then later admitted to and adjusted, at a time well after focus had shifted away from Brand New Day and their deceptive goal had been accomplished. Marvel is guilty of deliberately using deceptive marketing in order to exaggerate their sales at the direct expense of retailers. If they cannot adequately explain their actions, then they need to be held accountable for them. I demand nothing less than full returnability on all copies of Brand New Day that remain unsold in comic retail outlets everywhere.

The prosecution rests, your honor.

GUILTY!!!!!

The sentence...is DEATH!!!

[Shade 20x6]

Y'know, the more I think about it, this may explain the dealer at the comic show I went to a few weeks ago having six copies of #546 (1st prints) in his dollar bin. And he still didn't sell them.

[Blader5489]

If it's a trial you guys want, then let's not beat around the bush. I have certainly provided enough evidence, both circumstantial as well as definitive, to prove Marvel's guilt in this case beyond a reasonable doubt. Which explanation makes more sense? That Marvel intentionally withheld a specific number of copies of a book that was selling out in January in order to GIVE THEM AWAY FOR FREE several months later when they could have SOLD THEM FOR PROFIT...

... or, that the books didn't sell, there was no prolonged or additional demand for them, and instead of admitting that they weren't selling, Marvel and/or Diamond stashed them away (to unload quietly later on) in order to CLAIM a sell-out and create positive buzz on a title that was getting a huge negative backlash at the time?

Which argument holds water?

There is a precedent for the practice of withholding supply to increase demand. It is most commonly used today in the oil industry to drive up gasoline prices, and it was most famously used in the power & electric industry, as evidenced by the Enron scandal. When these deceptive practices are utilized in the comics industry, however, they directly attack the retailer. It is the retailer, not the consumer or the manufacturer, who is saddled with the burden of financial risk. To further confuse the facts of this case, Diamond claims that a "glitch" had taken place in sales figures for January and that they weren't overall as high as was initially projected. This is an extremely suspicious coincidence, to say the least.

We have seen definitive proof that Marvel and/or Diamond had (and still has) copies of ASM #546 that they did not sell. The obtuse rhetoric that the books were factually "sold out" simply because they weren't "available" when it has been established that they were and still are available, and that the books were being "reserved" for a little-publicized giveaway promotion rather than being sold according to a presumed demand for real profit, is a thin defense that strains credulity, even according to one of its proponents' own earlier statements.

I conclude that Marvel and/or Diamond lied about selling out of their supply of Amazing Spider-man #546. They had a motive: to increase demand for their product by limiting and withholding supply while nullifying negative publicity about an editorial decision that they knew in advance would be controversial. They failed to establish any alibi whatsoever, being wholly unable to effectively dispose of their overstock of the issue through subsequent promotional efforts. Sales figures for the month of January were falsely given, then later admitted to and adjusted, at a time well after focus had shifted away from Brand New Day and their deceptive goal had been accomplished. Marvel is guilty of deliberately using deceptive marketing in order to exaggerate their sales at the direct expense of retailers. If they cannot adequately explain their actions, then they need to be held accountable for them. I demand nothing less than full returnability on all copies of Brand New Day that remain unsold in comic retail outlets everywhere.

The prosecution rests, your honor.

Also, the moon landing was faked.

[Zombiezilla]

O.K., here is my question, and I mean it seriously: as the buyers, what do we really care what Marvel does to the sales figures? If you like the book, you will still buy it, if you don't like it, you won't. They can tell me that it sells 5 million copies, so what. If I don't like it, I won't buy it.

Is the fear that Marvel will keep inflating the numbers so that Joe Q. can keep his job and keep the story line going? No matter how they twist the numbers, if the book is not successful they will pull the plug or attempt something else. They can fake what the papers say, but they can't fake what goes into the account and the pockets. You know?

[black_spidey728]

O.K., here is my question, and I mean it seriously: as the buyers, what do we really care what Marvel does to the sales figures? If you like the book, you will still buy it, if you don't like it, you won't. They can tell me that it sells 5 million copies, so what. If I don't like it, I won't buy it.

Is the fear that Marvel will keep inflating the numbers so that Joe Q. can keep his job and keep the story line going? No matter how they twist the numbers, if the book is not successful they will pull the plug or attempt something else. They can fake what the papers say, but they can't fake what goes into the account and the pockets. You know?

Honestly, it's a perception and honesty thing. You can't piss on our heads and tell us its raining. Seriously, BND is a hot button issue, as fans who don't like it our only method of protest is to not by the book to force a change. Looking at the sales figures is the only way to measure how our protest is going. If Marvel is cooking the numbers to keep them inflated and make the book appear to be doing better
than it is is thumbing its nose at the patrons.

And again you guys have to realize that the passion you read on these boards are people that feel they have a vested interest inthe book. Its not really aimed at people who are indifferent and could go either way.

[Mister Mets]

If it's a trial you guys want, then let's not beat around the bush. I have certainly provided enough evidence, both circumstantial as well as definitive, to prove Marvel's guilt in this case beyond a reasonable doubt. Which explanation makes more sense? That Marvel intentionally withheld a specific number of copies of a book that was selling out in January in order to GIVE THEM AWAY FOR FREE several months later when they could have SOLD THEM FOR PROFIT...

... or, that the books didn't sell, there was no prolonged or additional demand for them, and instead of admitting that they weren't selling, Marvel and/or Diamond stashed them away (to unload quietly later on) in order to CLAIM a sell-out and create positive buzz on a title that was getting a huge negative backlash at the time?

Which argument holds water?

There is a precedent for the practice of withholding supply to increase demand. It is most commonly used today in the oil industry to drive up gasoline prices, and it was most famously used in the power & electric industry, as evidenced by the Enron scandal. When these deceptive practices are utilized in the comics industry, however, they directly attack the retailer. It is the retailer, not the consumer or the manufacturer, who is saddled with the burden of financial risk. To further confuse the facts of this case, Diamond claims that a "glitch" had taken place in sales figures for January and that they weren't overall as high as was initially projected. This is an extremely suspicious coincidence, to say the least.

We have seen definitive proof that Marvel and/or Diamond had (and still has) copies of ASM #546 that they did not sell. The obtuse rhetoric that the books were factually "sold out" simply because they weren't "available" when it has been established that they were and still are available, and that the books were being "reserved" for a little-publicized giveaway promotion rather than being sold according to a presumed demand for real profit, is a thin defense that strains credulity, even according to one of its proponents' own earlier statements.

I conclude that Marvel and/or Diamond lied about selling out of their supply of Amazing Spider-man #546. They had a motive: to increase demand for their product by limiting and withholding supply while nullifying negative publicity about an editorial decision that they knew in advance would be controversial. They failed to establish any alibi whatsoever, being wholly unable to effectively dispose of their overstock of the issue through subsequent promotional efforts. Sales figures for the month of January were falsely given, then later admitted to and adjusted, at a time well after focus had shifted away from Brand New Day and their deceptive goal had been accomplished. Marvel is guilty of deliberately using deceptive marketing in order to exaggerate their sales at the direct expense of retailers. If they cannot adequately explain their actions, then they need to be held accountable for them. I demand nothing less than full returnability on all copies of Brand New Day that remain unsold in comic retail outlets everywhere.

The prosecution rests, your honor.Your honor, the opposing side offers no evidence whatsoever that anyone at Marvel had anything to do with the false numbers from January of 2008, or offered any evidence to refute the explanation that it was caused by a computer glitch. Likewise, defense offers no evidence Marvel benefited from the false numbers, which allowed message board users who said after the fact that BND was guaranteed to be the month's best seller to claim that BND did worse than expected. Meanwhile, defense suspects that Marvel would have been happy to claim that The Hulk #1 was the best-selling book of the month, with the movie coming out and some recent petitions against Jeph Loeb.

Defense moves for charges to be dropped.
With prejudice.

* Edit- Technically, since I'm moderator, shouldn't I be the judge? :)

[DaeJi]

Oy... Marvel fudged the numbers to create positive buzz. Of course this is the frist time any company has ever done this, and of course this is looked down upon harshly be other businesses. This is in no way a fact of life in the world of commerce. Not at all. Hmmm....

[black_spidey728]

Your honor, the opposing side offers no evidence whatsoever that anyone at Marvel had anything to do with the false numbers from January of 2008, or offered any evidence to refute the explanation that it was caused by a computer glitch. Likewise, defense offers no evidence Marvel benefited from the false numbers, which allowed message board users who said after the fact that BND was guaranteed to be the month's best seller to claim that BND did worse than expected. Meanwhile, defense suspects that Marvel would have been happy to claim that The Hulk #1 was the best-selling book of the month, with the movie coming out and some recent petitions against Jeph Loeb.

Defense moves for charges to be dropped.
With prejudice.

* Edit- Technically, since I'm moderator, shouldn't I be the judge? :)

Motion denied, case bound over for jury trial.

P.S. I just finished watching Smallville...It sucks that Clark didn't fly...

[Brand]

How many judges does this trial have? :p

[philly]

If it's a trial you guys want, then let's not beat around the bush. I have certainly provided enough evidence, both circumstantial as well as definitive, to prove Marvel's guilt in this case beyond a reasonable doubt. Which explanation makes more sense? That Marvel intentionally withheld a specific number of copies of a book that was selling out in January in order to GIVE THEM AWAY FOR FREE several months later when they could have SOLD THEM FOR PROFIT...

... or, that the books didn't sell, there was no prolonged or additional demand for them, and instead of admitting that they weren't selling, Marvel and/or Diamond stashed them away (to unload quietly later on) in order to CLAIM a sell-out and create positive buzz on a title that was getting a huge negative backlash at the time?

Which argument holds water?

There is a precedent for the practice of withholding supply to increase demand. It is most commonly used today in the oil industry to drive up gasoline prices, and it was most famously used in the power & electric industry, as evidenced by the Enron scandal. When these deceptive practices are utilized in the comics industry, however, they directly attack the retailer. It is the retailer, not the consumer or the manufacturer, who is saddled with the burden of financial risk. To further confuse the facts of this case, Diamond claims that a "glitch" had taken place in sales figures for January and that they weren't overall as high as was initially projected. This is an extremely suspicious coincidence, to say the least.

We have seen definitive proof that Marvel and/or Diamond had (and still has) copies of ASM #546 that they did not sell. The obtuse rhetoric that the books were factually "sold out" simply because they weren't "available" when it has been established that they were and still are available, and that the books were being "reserved" for a little-publicized giveaway promotion rather than being sold according to a presumed demand for real profit, is a thin defense that strains credulity, even according to one of its proponents' own earlier statements.

I conclude that Marvel and/or Diamond lied about selling out of their supply of Amazing Spider-man #546. They had a motive: to increase demand for their product by limiting and withholding supply while nullifying negative publicity about an editorial decision that they knew in advance would be controversial. They failed to establish any alibi whatsoever, being wholly unable to effectively dispose of their overstock of the issue through subsequent promotional efforts. Sales figures for the month of January were falsely given, then later admitted to and adjusted, at a time well after focus had shifted away from Brand New Day and their deceptive goal had been accomplished. Marvel is guilty of deliberately using deceptive marketing in order to exaggerate their sales at the direct expense of retailers. If they cannot adequately explain their actions, then they need to be held accountable for them. I demand nothing less than full returnability on all copies of Brand New Day that remain unsold in comic retail outlets everywhere.

The prosecution rests, your honor.

Good summation, even with circumstantial evidence. :p

[Shade 20x6]

How many judges does this trial have? :p

It's a trial by jury. ;)

[genesis]

So do we meet in private to cast our ballots or just go ahead and cast them? I have been reading this thread all day and have made my decision.:)

[The Shadow]

If you don't agree with his theory, fine. If you have a better theory, those of us that have read 15 pages of arguments would entertain it. However, continuing to question without additional facts or theories of your own is somewhat pointless.
:rolleyes:
You obviously haven't read all 15 pages because I posted a theory of my own (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=6582730&postcount=207) just two pages back.:cool:

[The Shadow]

Also, the moon landing was faked.

:D :D

Elvis and Tupac aren't dead either.

[The Shadow]

I have certainly provided enough evidence, both circumstantial as well as definitive, to prove Marvel's guilt in this case beyond a reasonable doubt.
I disagree your honour.

Because of our inability to subpoena the email alluded to here:

I checked through my e-mail to find proof of the promotion and found a snag:

"This message is privileged, confidential and intended for the addressee only."

So, I can't really copy the details of these direct communications without getting in potentially serious trouble.

We cannot ascertain what the contents of the email ronnieramone can not provide are.

We are not suggesting he risk his business or his Diamond account over the matter of an argument on a message board by revealing the contents either!!!!! Just getting that out there! ;)

What he can't show us might be a complete admission by Marvel and/or Diamond on how they justify everything about the promotion, how they put books aside and so on.

Why would he keep this information a secret beyond the legalities of the fact the message is "privileged, confidential and intended for the addressee only"?

I call into evidence the following statements. Bolded portions are for emphasis:


Shadow,

You know as well as I do, that I can't provide the kind of 'smoking gun' proof that you are looking for. I'm basically a peon in the comics industry, completely powerless to affect anything on a larger scale than simply 'nudging' a customer toward this book or that book when they ask me what's good.

Yes, I have been involved in a legal matter that I can't discuss. And yes, it's true that I'm not unbiased on the issue of BND. I admit that I don't like this new direction, and I think it's all a sham.

I submit that it is POSSIBLE (and thus creating reasonable doubt) that ronnieramone is using his status as a legitimate store owner to help get fans currently on the fence who are disenfranchised with Marvel because they, according to HIM, lied about sales. I believe there is reason to suspect he would "nudge" a customer away from BND at his store and the result would be fans dropping the book in further protest and hastening the potential for the return of the status quo he and many other people want.

By bringing this here he is sowing discontentment both at his store and over the internet.


There was a confirmed Marvel promotion. I spoke with my Diamond sales rep and they confirmed it: there was, in fact, a promotion in March to give out a free copy of ASM #546 for each re-order of a Brand New Day back-issue.
If there was a confirmed promotion I contend that Marvel did not lie. They had to be sure there were enough books in stock at Diamond warehouses to fulfill the promotion requirements.


Many LCS owners obviously never even looked at re-ordering #546
I contend that Marvel overprinted because they thought reorder demand would be greater than it turned out to be thus explaining why you can still get first prints from Diamond.


That all being stated, I'd like to explore the definition of the term "sold out" for a moment.
Sold out (http://www.answers.com/topic/sold-out-disambiguation?cat=biz-fin): Selling out of a particular item so it is unavailable to consumers.

Isn't that what happened? The copies for the confirmed Marvel promotion (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?p=6579223#post6579223) were NOT available to customers because they had been set aside for the confirmed Marvel promotion (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?p=6579223#post6579223) and thus the available copies were sold out (http://www.answers.com/topic/sold-out-disambiguation?cat=biz-fin)?


It doesn't matter if the "mystery" books were set aside and earmarked for a future promotion
Your honour, I contend it does because they weren't available for ronnieramone or anyone else. They were not available for the reorder and thus the copies that were sent out to retailers SOLD OUT.


Nobody has purchased them yet.
Because at the time Marvel had them set aside for a confirmed Marvel promotion (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?p=6579223#post6579223).


These books are clearly still available and are simply NOT sold out
I contend that they were not originally available for reorder because Marvel did not properly anticipate the demand.

Your honour, I submit that there IS reasonable doubt in his argument and until further evidence is offered that is more concrete I request the charges be thrown out.

--------------


There is a precedent for the practice of withholding supply to increase demand. It is most commonly used today in the oil industry to drive up gasoline prices
I don't think those are the same at all.

Marvel doesn't profit by giving away free comics. Neither do they gain money from secondary sales.

EDIT: Lastly they don't get a higher percentage from retailers and/or Diamond if there is increased demand unlike the oil industry that sets its own prices.


When these deceptive practices are utilized in the comics industry, however, they directly attack the retailer. It is the retailer, not the consumer or the manufacturer, who is saddled with the burden of financial risk.
What financial risk is there for you in FREE comics? :confused:

[carabas]

What financial risk is there for you in FREE comics? :confused:If Marvel and/or Diamond flatout lie about how well a book is doing, retailers will order based on those lies, and end up with unsellable stock.

[Endless Flight]

I'll steal a scene from a famous movie...

CBR Member: "Guilty."
CBR Member: "Guilty."
CBR Member: "Guilty."
Joe Queseda: "The vote must be unanimous, Shadow. You alone can condemn us if you wish. And you alone will be held responsible by me."

:D

[Zombiezilla]

Honestly, it's a perception and honesty thing. You can't piss on our heads and tell us its raining. Seriously, BND is a hot button issue, as fans who don't like it our only method of protest is to not by the book to force a change. Looking at the sales figures is the only way to measure how our protest is going. If Marvel is cooking the numbers to keep them inflated and make the book appear to be doing better
than it is is thumbing its nose at the patrons.

And again you guys have to realize that the passion you read on these boards are people that feel they have a vested interest inthe book. Its not really aimed at people who are indifferent and could go either way.

Thank you! I get what you are saying, but like I said, they can mix and match the numbers all they want, but if enough people to stop, they won't be able to lie to themselves for too long. I say if you are not happy with the book, keep fighting the good fight!!! My verdict is still out. If the book gets as good as the next few issues look like they might be, I'll stick around. If they keep on like the last arc, I'm gone.

[philly]

:rolleyes:
You obviously haven't read all 15 pages because I posted a theory of my own (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=6582730&postcount=207) just two pages back.:cool:

Theories are fine but do you have some data to support it?

[black_spidey728]

I disagree your honour.

Because of our inability to subpoena the email alluded to here:


We cannot ascertain what the contents of the email ronnieramone can not provide are.

We are not suggesting he risk his business or his Diamond account over the matter of an argument on a message board by revealing the contents either!!!!! Just getting that out there! ;)

What he can't show us might be a complete admission by Marvel and/or Diamond on how they justify everything about the promotion, how they put books aside and so on.

Why would he keep this information a secret beyond the legalities of the fact the message is "privileged, confidential and intended for the addressee only"?

I call into evidence the following statements. Bolded portions are for emphasis:



I submit that it is POSSIBLE (and thus creating reasonable doubt) that ronnieramone is using his status as a legitimate store owner to help get fans currently on the fence who are disenfranchised with Marvel because they, according to HIM, lied about sales. I believe there is reason to suspect he would "nudge" a customer away from BND at his store and the result would be fans dropping the book in further protest and hastening the potential for the return of the status quo he and many other people want.

By bringing this here he is sowing discontentment both at his store and over the internet.


If there was a confirmed promotion I contend that Marvel did not lie. They had to be sure there were enough books in stock at Diamond warehouses to fulfill the promotion requirements.


I contend that Marvel overprinted because they thought reorder demand would be greater than it turned out to be thus explaining why you can still get first prints from Diamond.


Sold out (http://www.answers.com/topic/sold-out-disambiguation?cat=biz-fin): Selling out of a particular item so it is unavailable to consumers.

Isn't that what happened? The copies for the confirmed Marvel promotion (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?p=6579223#post6579223) were NOT available to customers because they had been set aside for the confirmed Marvel promotion (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?p=6579223#post6579223) and thus the available copies were sold out (http://www.answers.com/topic/sold-out-disambiguation?cat=biz-fin)?


Your honour, I contend it does because they weren't available for ronnieramone or anyone else. They were not available for the reorder and thus the copies that were sent out to retailers SOLD OUT.


Because at the time Marvel had them set aside for a confirmed Marvel promotion (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?p=6579223#post6579223).


I contend that they were not originally available for reorder because Marvel did not properly anticipate the demand.

Your honour, I submit that there IS reasonable doubt in his argument and until further evidence is offered that is more concrete I request the charges be thrown out.

--------------


I don't think those are the same at all.

Marvel doesn't profit by giving away free comics. Neither do they gain money from secondary sales.

EDIT: Lastly they don't get a higher percentage from retailers and/or Diamond if there is increased demand unlike the oil industry that sets its own prices.


What financial risk is there for you in FREE comics? :confused:

As Judge, I find tha the jury is barred from hearing this line of defense. It is predicated on the basis of the book being sold out which I find was never the case by the evidence submitted (even without the email. Furthermore, even if Matvel/Diamond made the books unavailable for a period of time , that still doesn't constitute being sold out because the vendor had knowledge that the product was actually available.

And even if the defendants (Marvel/Diamond) held a percentage of the books back for later distribution as part of a promotion, thereby triggering the "sold out status". That still counts as collusion on the parts of the defedants. Whether they meant to or not, they still achieved a malicious intent. Remember, intent is not a defense for your actions. The ultimate response to Marvel's action was that the retailers were stuck with unsellable stock that cannot be returned.

So as your defense is based on 2 areas that are not defensable A) Marvel's claim of being "Sold Out" B)Marvel's intent when it made said decisions. Based on my findings, this defense is denied.

[Mister Mets]

I submit that black_spidey728 should recuse himself as judge, given prior statements in favor of the evidence.

If we really wanted to make this a jury type thing with ronnieramone as the prosecution witness, black_spidey728 as prosecutor (which I suspect is a more appropriate position than Judge in this case) and The Shadow as the defense attorney, we'd need twelve jurors from this forum without a significant opinion regarding Joe Quesada. Good luck finding that here.


Theories are fine but do you have some data to support it? Why would he need data to offer a counter-explanation, based on the evidence Ron has provided?

[philly]

Why would he need data to offer a counter-explanation, based on the evidence Ron has provided?

Because that's what you do to counter an argument. If He has a difference of opinion and think Ron's findings are wrong, He would have some kind of data ( Link, Article or other) that can back up his argument, It does not have to be big or detailed but something to provide some doubt. While Ron's theory is an opinion, at least he backed it up with some findings that he believes gives him some credibility for his theory. Is Ron's theory right or wrong? No one really knows, but he made the effort to give something to make his point and if anybody is going to dispute it, it would only be fair to back it up with data of their own other than just say that its wrong with out putting the same effort the other side has done in putting forth their findings.

[ShaggyB]

GUILTY!!!!!

The sentence...is DEATH!!!

lol thanks Ronin......

[Matt Linton]

Because that's what you do to counter an argument. If He has a difference of opinion and think Ron's findings are wrong, He would have some kind of data ( Link, Article or other) that can back up his argument, It does not have to be big or detailed but something to provide some doubt. While Ron's theory is an opinion, at least he backed it up with some findings that he believes gives him some credibility for his theory. Is his theory right or wrong, no one really knows but he made the effort to give something to make his point and if anybody is going to dispute it, it would only be fair to back it up with data of their own other than just say that its wrong with out putting the same effort the other side has done in putting forth their findings.

It seems like you're making the Matlock argument (or Perry Mason, if you prefer). To continue with the analogy, someone is being prosecuted for murder. The DA presents their evidence to the jury. It's not expected, or required, for the defense to present an alternate theory, just for them to demonstrate that the evidence presented doesn't cross the reasonable doubt threshold, regardless of how plausible the prosecution's theory might be.

In this case, there are still too many unanswered questions for anyone to claim that Ron's theory has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

[ShaggyB]

It seems like you're making the Matlock argument (or Perry Mason, if you prefer). To continue with the analogy, someone is being prosecuted for murder. The DA presents their evidence to the jury. It's not expected, or required, for the defense to present an alternate theory, just for them to demonstrate that the evidence presented doesn't cross the reasonable doubt threshold, regardless of how plausible the prosecution's theory might be.

In this case, there are still too many unanswered questions for anyone to claim that Ron's theory has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

and thats the end of the courtroom argument.

Ron, while having a good theory lacks the proof required for a guilty sentence. Given if he didnt have more legal reason that he couldnt share more info we could have more to go on.... but considering hes said all he can say, the info isnt there to PROVE his case.

He has opened a lot of eyes and shown a possible consipiracy is upon us, but with out the stone cold facts to back up his claims beyond that of theory, this case is dismissed.

Any and all who would like to continue said case will need to have more information to present the court with.

AS to the Sell out of ASM 546..... The court rules in favor of the prosecution, If one can still order 1st print copies from diamond to stock ones store with, then the book is indeed not sold out at the distributer level. This however does not prove that marvel has faked any sales numbers, nor does it prove that diamond did not have a computer glitch. Neither does it prove that the numbers as presented by Diamond are not in fact real numbers. It also does not prove that those numbers include or do not include free issue sales. That can only be proved by a date for said free promotion and clarification from diamond about there numbers/glitch.

Case closed

[black_spidey728]

I submit that black_spidey728 should recuse himself as judge, given prior statements in favor of the evidence.

If we really wanted to make this a jury type thing with ronnieramone as the prosecution witness, black_spidey728 as prosecutor (which I suspect is a more appropriate position than Judge in this case) and The Shadow as the defense attorney, we'd need twelve jurors from this forum without a significant opinion regarding Joe Quesada. Good luck finding that here.

Why would he need data to offer a counter-explanation, based on the evidence Ron has provided?

Recusal would possibly be warranted if this were a bench trial where the judge were the sole determiner. But as this is a jury trial my belief of the evidence is irrelevant as the decision will be made by a jury.

[philly]

It seems like you're making the Matlock argument (or Perry Mason, if you prefer). To continue with the analogy, someone is being prosecuted for murder. The DA presents their evidence to the jury. It's not expected, or required, for the defense to present an alternate theory, just for them to demonstrate that the evidence presented doesn't cross the reasonable doubt threshold, regardless of how plausible the prosecution's theory might be.

In this case, there are still too many unanswered questions for anyone to claim that Ron's theory has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

I never said Ron's theory was proven beyond a reasonable doubt. All I'm saying is that if you are going to provide an argument about what was given, back it up. You can say that the evidence is flawed and that's fine, you are giving an opinion but back it up with something that gives credence to what you are saying. The data provided by Ron is not by no means a smoking gun but its something that gives reason to suspect something could be happening and if anybody thinks its wrong, then not only give an opinion but back it up with something that gives your opinion something people can consider as well. I don't know if what Ron is saying is true or not but he's making an effort to prove himself with his theory, all I'm asking is if you think he's wrong, show us not only your opinion but back it up as well so we can see all sides of the argument.

[ShaggyB]

Recusal would possibly be warranted if this were a bench trial where the judge were the sole determiner. But as this is a jury trial my belief of the evidence is irrelevant as the decision will be made by a jury.

doesnt really matter, jury is selected by both prosecution and defense and is instructed that there job is to see if the facts presented prove BEYOND ANY REASONABLE DOUBT that the defense is guilty of said charges.

Ron does not present enough evidence to prove that his claim is absolute truth. He does make a good theory and his evidence does support his theory, but support and prove beyond doubt are two completely different things. One can make any claim they want and have enough facts to support the claim, but still not have enough facts to disprove all other alternatives.

To take Rons case to a real court, Ron would have to have more facts.... Its just not enough to be certain that his theory is fact. Even he admits that. Stop trying to take it in that direction and do what philly is, ask for better theories and evidence to support them.

[Endless Flight]

Many criminals have been convicted because of circumstancial evidence in the US. He's got the circumstancial evidence. Just needs the jury to agree.

[ronnieramone]

Just woke up to several more pages of this....


At least we're all having FUN now, eh?

[black_spidey728]

Just woke up to several more pages of this....


At least we're all having FUN now, eh?

At leastsomething having to do with BND is fun.
:evilsmile

[Mister Mets]

Just woke up to several more pages of this....


At least we're all having FUN now, eh?I wish all threads could be fun and illuminating. Granted, I believe the illuminating part was the responses of some BND opponents, but that's beside the point. :)

[ShaggyB]

Many criminals have been convicted because of circumstancial evidence in the US. He's got the circumstancial evidence. Just needs the jury to agree.

Quite true, but is that the way the law is suppose to work or is that something that squeezes through the system?

Its not a perfect system. It has its flaws and its points where it has failed, but over all you have to prove your theory to a jury of 12 (13 stand in) and if they have reason to believe any portion of it is not accurate or not entirely true, they are suppose to vote not guilty.

[Brian Cronin]

BND is going to be hard to ever really prove as a sales failure, for the following reason:

In the last month Spider-Man had three monthly titles (and do note, this was part of Back in Black, so sales were actually UP from normal sales numbers), the three titles COMBINED sold a little over 203,000 copies.

For thrice-monthly Amazing Spider-Man to sell LESS than that, it would have to sell less than 67,775 copies.

Even the most dire predictions don't predict sales THAT low, right?

So even if you differ with the idea that selling more Spider-Man comics a month than they did before is a success, you can bet your sweet petunia that Marvel will be taking this position, and it's a hard one to argue.

Now as to whether they're fudging whether a book "sold out" - THAT's definitely interesting stuff.

-Brian

[Endless Flight]

Quite true, but is that the way the law is suppose to work or is that something that squeezes through the system?

Its not a perfect system. It has its flaws and its points where it has failed, but over all you have to prove your theory to a jury of 12 (13 stand in) and if they have reason to believe any portion of it is not accurate or not entirely true, they are suppose to vote not guilty.

OJ's still looking for the killer. :cool: