If you could change World WAr Hulk, how would you do it ? [Archive]

Mark_S

03-24-2008, 04:13 PM

I would have ended it just at the point where the gladiator games start and the Hulk is poised to go thumbs up or thumbs down. I would have had the Hulk challenge Reed and the rest to prove it was an accident, and held his comrades hostage, then when it was really proven and accident I would have had the Hulk let everyone go, but take his warbound to Mars to start to rebuild the civilization, with a stern warning for everyone from Earth to stay away or else. I thought it was unfair that through out WWH Reed and the rest were never really given a chance to prove that they weren't responsible for the ship blowing up, even if they were responsible for the Hulk ending up there. At least partially. For most of WWH I was pretty sure that it was them, though by accident. It was many issues into the series that any of them voiced a denial after all.
As a kicker I would have had the Hulk make the offer that anyone who wanted to come with him could, and I would have had a lot of the people left in New York, as well as some anti-sra renegades take him up on the offer. And of course the could have looted New York on the way out.
This would have set up a conflict not only with Earth-since you know that Gyrich and the rest would not have rested while the Hulk was on Mars with advanced tech after already prooving they could take the Earth when they wanted to, but with the Inhuman's on the moon and maybe the group on Titan as well. Not to mention when the skrulls invade it would be interesting to see if the Hulk would be willing to come to Earth's defense. I would have left the Sentry out, there is just no role for this guy in the mu as far as I can tell.

Mark_S

G. Wayne

03-24-2008, 04:37 PM

Banner rigged the ship to explode on the Sakaar, with the intention of wounding, not killing. (Maybe someone loyal to the Red King re-rigged it.) The line of thinking being that he's pissed that his friends betrayed him by exiling him, so he's going to use the Hulk to get back at them. And essentially it's Hulk's fault to begin with, so he can't let him be happy on Sakaar, either.

Things proceed until the Sentry fight. Sentry starts to lose it and become the Void, over-exerting himself in the process. Hulk sees the threat of how many the Void could take out, which Hulk never intended, and he steps in with the help of the heroes and saves the day. And Stark later reminisces about needing the greater threat of the Void to pull everyone back together.

Cue something like Hulk let everyone go, but take his warbound to Mars to start to rebuild the civilization, with a stern warning for everyone from Earth to stay away or else.

XPac

03-24-2008, 05:20 PM

Hmmm... my biggest complaint of the series was less the ending and more that we got short changed on a lot of the fights. I would have preferred it if the series was longer so we could get more. I wish the Avengers in particular got a bit more page time in the first fight.

As for the ending... I don't know. I part of me thinks Miek is a bit of a cop out. But on the flip side, it's probably the best way to absolve the Illuminati (though I would still argue they have some indirect accountability). You don't want that much blood on the Illuminati's hands... having someone intentionally sabotage the ship completely shifts the focus away from them.

Also, I think Sentry's performance at the end was a bit unspectacular. I would have given him a bit more depth offensively.

HouseSolo

03-24-2008, 05:29 PM

I would have ended it just at the point where the gladiator games start and the Hulk is poised to go thumbs up or thumbs down. I would have had the Hulk challenge Reed and the rest to prove it was an accident, and held his comrades hostage, then when it was really proven and accident I would have had the Hulk let everyone go, but take his warbound to Mars to start to rebuild the civilization, with a stern warning for everyone from Earth to stay away or else. I thought it was unfair that through out WWH Reed and the rest were never really given a chance to prove that they weren't responsible for the ship blowing up, even if they were responsible for the Hulk ending up there. At least partially. For most of WWH I was pretty sure that it was them, though by accident. It was many issues into the series that any of them voiced a denial after all.
As a kicker I would have had the Hulk make the offer that anyone who wanted to come with him could, and I would have had a lot of the people left in New York, as well as some anti-sra renegades take him up on the offer. And of course the could have looted New York on the way out.
This would have set up a conflict not only with Earth-since you know that Gyrich and the rest would not have rested while the Hulk was on Mars with advanced tech after already prooving they could take the Earth when they wanted to, but with the Inhuman's on the moon and maybe the group on Titan as well. Not to mention when the skrulls invade it would be interesting to see if the Hulk would be willing to come to Earth's defense.
Mark_S

That sounds like a story I would thoroughly enjoy. Not just as am mini or anything like that, but something that lasted in the MU and became the new norm.

I would have left the Sentry out, there is just no role for this guy in the mu as far as I can tell.

Right on, man. That's the way I see it.

Don Quixote

03-24-2008, 05:29 PM

Thank god you didn't write the story :p .

If it was with the Sentry there definitely should have been a longer fight, but WWH winning seems reasonable to me.

Heh. Just not a Hulk fan, and though I understand why the story had him beat the crap out of everyone else in the Marvel-verse, I didn't like it much.

But the idea of Juggy as a national hero, getting loads of media attention and hanging out at celebrity parties tickles me immensely.

Tobias Drake

03-24-2008, 07:42 PM

b_sinning

03-24-2008, 08:26 PM

I would have shown more of hulk owning Stark and maybe include some Sheild bashing.

LungerTony

03-24-2008, 10:35 PM

I would also have devoted an entire issue to Hulk and his Warbound fighting the New and Mighty Avengers. That should have been an epic and drawn out battle, not a couple pages. The X-Men got three issues, and yet both teams of Avengers got tacked on like an afterthought.

Second that. Either make WWH 6 issues and dedicate an issue to that.

Also...I would have had the Hulk kill Miek, not just punch him a bit.
And I wouldn't include some idea that he unconsciously does math and physics in his head to avoid collateral human damage.
Hulk smashing would've caused some innocent deaths.

And I would've ended the Sentry fight with Hulk/Bruce Banner actually dying.
I actually do like the Hulk btw...but the way WWH was, I felt he should've died.
The army keeping him alive in Hulk makes no sense after what he did.
Hulk should die.

However, a few years from now he would be ressurected of course, and be a hero and all despite it all.

Captain Librarian

03-24-2008, 11:55 PM

Well, the ending fit well with what Pak talked about in the epilogue to the Planet Hulk hardcover, that the theme of his whole Hulk arc is that rage, however justified, always has a price (Hirom had a line about this during the PH run). Hulk's rage came in handy on Sakaar, but the price was turning a rather likeable character in Miek into a hardened, hateful being. Keep in mind, he thinks he's simply living out the lessons Hulk taught him ("Never stop making them pay"). That isn't to say violence is never justified, just that a price is always paid. You can't have it otherwise.

That said, I really liked Miek, and would have loved to see him redeemed. I personally would have liked something that further undercut the Illuminati's (and Stark and Richards in particular) stance of being able to control and predict everything. Something like one of his assistants, or a character (pick one) who he used to help send the hulk into space took it upon himself to install a warp core and blow up Sakaar. Stark would then lash out in rage asking "Why?" to which he'd reply: "Sometimes you have to play God..."

That'd be awesome.

Really though, the question I keep asking is...What If the ship hadn't exploded at all? That really needs to be a What If story at some point.

Tobias Drake

03-25-2008, 12:18 AM

And I would've ended the Sentry fight with Hulk/Bruce Banner actually dying.
I actually do like the Hulk btw...but the way WWH was, I felt he should've died.
The army keeping him alive in Hulk makes no sense after what he did.
Hulk should die.

However, a few years from now he would be ressurected of course, and be a hero and all despite it all.

Agreed. At the end of WWH, the way Bruce fell, I honestly thought he was dead. And it really worked for me; it was a powerful, final conclusion to the story. Naturally, I figured he'd be rezzed in a few months time, but for that particular story, the death of the Hulk felt like a real, powerful ending.

Drdmx

03-25-2008, 01:03 AM

Wouldnt have changed a thing with Miek. He is the only thing that saves the Illuminati from total blame. If anything, I would like to see more into the thoughts of each individual member of the WB with regards to the destruction of Sakaar. Think about that for a second. Thats going to be a GREAT issue of Warbound later on if the series continues to be successful. "Trial of Gambit" comes to mind for X-Men.

Also, with regards to the motive of Mieks betrayal, maybe I read to much into things... but I totally saw it coming, and felt it justified. Ever since he killed the Headman in PH, ("Good, now you're just like me").. I felt that was Mieks turning point where he went beyond the point of no return. From that point forward, he never was satisfied with peace, and only talked about the destruction of the Imperials, even AFTER peace was obtained in Crown City. Why is this a stretch? It fits so well to me.

I totally agree the Avengers fight could have been longer, but if they only gave 5 issues to cram it all into, then I understand. Several of the battles demonstrated the Hulks utter superiority to the Super Hero Community, and heres the thing. It's accurrate. I like the way Gyrich describes him in A:I. "He's the original Omega Level Threat. The reason the Avengers were formed in the first place."

Lastly, there were 2 things that I thought were epic.

1.) Banner and Hulk appearing to work together to get the best of Strange (I.E. working towards a common goal.)

and

2.) The FF battle with the Hulk. The Thing used to at least offer a physical challenge. I thought that him punching the Hulk directly with his haymaker (He used his "Clobbering Time" line) and Hulk shrugging it off was incredible. The other part was Reeds resistance against the Hulk. When he tried to wrap him up, and the Hulk just laughed.

Sorry, he's the anti-hero that apparently alot of people love to hate, but he walks that fine line of being able to do anything, but still doing the right thing in the end. It's like Rick said in the series. "You tend to get a little wild at times, but 9 times out of 10, you ususally end up punching whoever needs it".

2.)

Ogrebear

03-26-2008, 08:00 AM

I think I would had empathised the World War part of World War Hulk- a single fight in NYC is not world threatening to me.

For me I would have had Hulks return be much bigger. Have him turn up in orbit and demand the Iluminarti. Get Cho or She-Hulk leak the intell on who these people where to the world press which twists public opinion.

Have Hulk touch down in Oz, overhrow the Aussie government and then send out his alien forces to bring him Reed, Tony, Xavier, Namor, Black Bolt, Black Panther, and Strange.

I would have had Namor fighting from Doom's castle with the Brits and other European supers gettign invovled; Strange fighting in Tibet-which would bring in the Chinese army; Tony and Reed making a stand in NYC; Black Bolt collected from the Moon, Black Panher, and Xavier from Westchester. But make each fight against Hulk epic and on-screen falling across multiple books. Make it world shaking.

Yeah I know Black Panther got out of the Illuminarti but a Warbound vs Wakanda fight would be cool.... perhaps Panther can be the only one that presuades Hulk he had nothing to do with it; whouch would increase American paranoia over Panther which ties into his own book.

Ultimatly Hulk would collect his prizes- inc Xavier - he would get them to build a machine that projects his pain and anger and sorrow over his dead world across the planet. While hes doing that the suriviving/free Heroes gather in NYC's ruins to plot a way to take down the Hulk's forces.

People like Pimm, McCoy, etc come to the fore to find a solution to Hulk's rampage; a bunch of hardest Heroes (Wonder Man, Hulk Corps, Thunderbolts etc) will be sent to directly attack his forces while more sneaky forces (Wolverine, Spider-Man etc) infultrate the stone ship/fortress to deliver a bio weapon that will render the Aliens comatose.

SHIELD, MI6 etc have their own solution; nuke 'em! Thus its a race!

Have a HUGE final act where the captured Heroes actually persuade Hulk it was not them that blew up the ship; Reed figures out it was an accident. Hulk is about to stand down when Miek throws the switch on the Pain machine just as the Bio weapon get to Hulk, just as the nukes fly (catch those Sentry!) and Heroes and Horde meet on the field....

abomin8ion

03-28-2008, 01:15 AM

what a piece of crap.

Hob Gadling

03-28-2008, 08:40 AM

Have a HUGE final act where the captured Heroes actually persuade Hulk it was not them that blew up the ship; Reed figures out it was an accident. Hulk is about to stand down when Miek throws the switch on the Pain machine just as the Bio weapon get to Hulk, just as the nukes fly (catch those Sentry!) and Heroes and Horde meet on the field....
Ogrebear - that's brilliant - you should write for Marvel! Given how much I enjoyed reading your post, I would LOVE to have seen this as the plot for WWH.

As for my view on the actual series, I would have liked to have seen more heroes using combinations of clever thinking and non-physical powers (magic, telepathy, etc) to defeat hulk. They should have realised that brute force was never going to stop him - he is the strongest one there is - and so they should have tried different tactics. I thought the X-Men's telepaths and characters like Kitty were woefully underused in that mini.

Overall, I didn't think WWH lived up to the promise of Planet Hulk. WWH should've been more world shaking for the MU, and should've been better integrated into the mainstream continuity. The Avengers books basically ignored it, imo (I know there was a cursory mention in the latest NA annual, but C'MON!). I just think Bendis hates anything that interupts his flow.

DaeJi

03-28-2008, 10:23 AM

I would have had the Hulk want to, and try to kill the Reed and Tony and gang. Not just scaring them, actually trying to kill them. I would then revel that Banner was behind the explosion, that the Red King had somehow influenced and became part of his psyche. Taken over by rage and the Red King, the Hulk finally loses all control , and in his rampage Cho dies, the Thing is beaten within inchs of life, as is She-Hulk, several S.H.I.E.L.D. agents are killed trying to save some of the injured heroes. The Sentry arrives are engages the Hulk; the Warbound, shocked at what has become of their King and their mission, retreat in shame. The Sentry is defeated, and Ironman regains his armor. After a brutal fight, where the Hulk is clearlly winning, Ironman pulls every stop he has and finally beats him. The Hulk reverts to Banner, who is now more Red King than Bruce. He tells them that he's not going anywhere, that the Hulk is his weapon now, and that this planet will soon be his. Cut to him underground in his cell with the light, calmly awaiting his chance to escape and break this world.

Hulk Strongest One

04-03-2008, 03:02 PM

In the bigger picture, I'd have preferred that there have been no treachery by Meik, and that the warp core breach was just an accident from damage to the ship.

That would have fit in much better with the "we didn't intend it" stuff from the Illuminati at the end.

On the smaller scale, I'd have seen Juggy get a bloody nose, not just a dented helmet. If Hulk was taking on Zomstrange and full-out Sentry, he should have pasted Juggy. Those guys are starting to get into the range of Cyttorak. Granted, it was earlier on when he hadn't built his rage quite as much...

There'd be no red-beam satellites saving the day. I'd just have had the Hulk make his point by letting 2 of the 4 die, then leave. And they wouldn't have been the only ones, all the stupidity at the end of "not killing anyone" being completely silly.

Kutulu

04-04-2008, 12:28 PM

Drdmx

04-04-2008, 01:24 PM

Cant agree with the Juggy thing the way it was written.

As much as I'd love to see Hulk get over on him like he did when he was the Horseman of War, you gotta keep in mind that Juggy had to be protected by the writer.

Looks like he's about to go back to his old ways, and have the full on power of Cytorrak. I think Hulk could def win, but that being the issue in continuity where Cain gets fully re-energized, you cant have him lose outright. So it was good to have them walk away as a draw.

ivesaidway2much

04-04-2008, 02:47 PM

I would have made the shuttle explosion an accident. The Hulk is a character that morally revels in shades of gray. There shouldn't have been a clear cut answer for who was responsible for the destruction of Sakaar. Right and wrong have little or no place in Hulk vs. heroes comic.

agrich

04-05-2008, 07:51 AM

I'm torn between having the Sentry get his neck broken, or having him not appear at all. It's a toss-up.

Saint

04-05-2008, 08:31 PM

I would have made the destruction of Sakaar accidental.

I would not have had Miek turn heel.

Sentry would not have been apart of the event. What sense does it make to have him in WWH and not go over? That's the only reason he's in the MU.

Another thing I would change is the whole "Hulk doesn't kill during his rampages because he's smart enough to do caculations in his head" BS. I mean really? When Pak pulled that out of his ass he lost me for the rest of the event.

40footwolf

04-05-2008, 08:36 PM

I'd make his character more consistent. It seemed to me that he wasn't deciding on moral choices in the story more than he was just sort of bumbling through them, and I was just like, "You can either be a self-assured leader or a confused monster but for God's sake PICK ONE."

Zomling

04-06-2008, 01:39 PM

Second that. Either make WWH 6 issues and dedicate an issue to that.

Also...I would have had the Hulk kill Miek, not just punch him a bit.
And I wouldn't include some idea that he unconsciously does math and physics in his head to avoid collateral human damage.
Hulk smashing would've caused some innocent deaths.

And I would've ended the Sentry fight with Hulk/Bruce Banner actually dying.
I actually do like the Hulk btw...but the way WWH was, I felt he should've died.
The army keeping him alive in Hulk makes no sense after what he did.
Hulk should die.

However, a few years from now he would be ressurected of course, and be a hero and all despite it all.

I agree. For the record I must say that I am a great fan of the Hulk in all his incarnations and if I could only buy one book per month it would be Hulk, but the only way it could have really ended was with his death.

Tobias Drake

04-07-2008, 10:23 AM

I definitely wouldn't have had the Hulk's random, spontaneous Face Heel Turn at the end.

Magneto Rocks

04-07-2008, 11:25 AM

Bigger changes? Sentry/Thor fight would, in classic Marvel tradition, be a tie, but Thor (Who would have been foreshadowed throughout) would then turn up and fighjt Hulk one on one in a battle for the ages. Thor would reveal that he too lost his entire world- in fact, he's lost it many times due to the saga of Ragnarok, but he's never lashed out against others in the way Hulk has. Sentry would then get back up and fight with Thor until Hulk is forced to back down.

...Okay, just Thor/Hulk would make me happy, I admit. :) To be honest, I'd probably overhaul the entire crossover except issue one though, since it all went downhill from there.

In terms of minor changes, there is one big one:

The line "Guess we're all monsters now" from issue 4 remains the single greatest source of entertainment to me from the entire series. I'm torn between whether or not I'd want it gone, want it left as a momento of Pak's momentary descent from "Competent/great writer" to "raving madman" (Which did not seem to appear anywhere else) or else fully extended to it's logical conclusion of "Guess we're all monsters now when I hijack your free will and torture you to do my bidding and beat up your friends for my own twisted amusement as your family watch on!"

...Aaah, memories...

ivesaidway2much

04-07-2008, 12:18 PM

In terms of minor changes, there is one big one:

The line "Guess we're all monsters now" from issue 4 remains the single greatest source of entertainment to me from the entire series. I'm torn between whether or not I'd want it gone, want it left as a momento of Pak's momentary descent from "Competent/great writer" to "raving madman" (Which did not seem to appear anywhere else) or else fully extended to it's logical conclusion of "Guess we're all monsters now when I hijack your free will and torture you to do my bidding and beat up your friends for my own twisted amusement as your family watch on!"

...Aaah, memories...I'm at a loss to understand how an otherwise intelligent poster can fail so completely to grasp such a clear cut scene. Right up above in your post you note the absurdity of the Hulk's claim. But it's like your brain shuts off at that point when considering this scene. Let me try an illustration. If say, for instance, I were to type in an SHRA thread you posted on something like this:
Wow, Magneto Rocks is defending a questionable tactic Tony Stark used to achieve his goal. I NEVER saw that coming!!!

Would you honestly not be able to figure out what I actually meant?

Magneto Rocks

04-07-2008, 02:10 PM

Kevinroc

04-07-2008, 02:21 PM

...I distinctly recall reading (And arguing with :P) dozens of posts on how the genius of World War Hulk was that Hulk proved by the end that everyone was a monster, not just him, and that this line illustrated this clearly, and was a work of genius, a masterpiece, etc.

...You mean to tell me that the Hulk was just being bitterly sarcastic and admitting that he was in fact the only monster present? :tongue:

Tony Stark and Reed Richards were made scientists who created a copy of Thor, Black Bolt was probably a Skrull and Dr. Strange unleashed a demon he couldn't control.

Hulk calling them "monsters" seems kinda on the money to me. :tongue:

ivesaidway2much

04-07-2008, 03:21 PM

...I distinctly recall reading (And arguing with :P) dozens of posts on how the genius of World War Hulk was that Hulk proved by the end that everyone was a monster, not just him, and that this line illustrated this clearly, and was a work of genius, a masterpiece, etc.

...You mean to tell me that the Hulk was just being bitterly sarcastic and admitting that he was in fact the only monster present? :tongue:Not quite. The Hulk was being bitterly sarcastic and showing the Illuminati how unfair it is to judge people based on actions committed when one isn't actually in control of their body (i.e. shooting a person into space because a gamma bomb explosion knocked him loopy for a couple of hours). Although it is true that Stephen Strange, Reed Richards, Black Bolt, Tony Stark, and the Hulk were all monsters in that story.

Magneto Rocks

04-07-2008, 03:29 PM

Tony Stark and Reed Richards were made scientists who created a copy of Thor, Black Bolt was probably a Skrull and Dr. Strange unleashed a demon he couldn't control.

Hulk calling them "monsters" seems kinda on the money to me. :tongue:

Eh, Black Botl I'll grant you if he was a Skrull, but it's quite possible that Clor went mad not due to any mistake on their part, but due to Skrellowjacket's meddling (Though even if he wasn't a Skrull, my money's still on Hank- he has a history with homicidal cyborgs. ;)) and I'd hardly qualify Strange's one considering it was only done BECAUSE of Hulk's vendetta.

Not quite. The Hulk was being bitterly sarcastic and showing the Illuminati how unfair it is to judge people based on actions committed when one isn't actually in control of their body

Maybe the comparison would have been more on the ball if they turned into giant homicidal monsters when controlled and spent large periods of time like that while adopting totally seperate personas and attempting to murder those who try to stop them? :wink:

Nevertheless, you have clarified the line for me, so thanks ivesaidway2much. I now understand the (Significently flawed) reasoning behind it, even if I think that's completely bogus. In a way though, I'm sad- you have RUINED the most entertaining part of the crossover forever. :tongue:

And before anyone explodes, I've said my piece, so I'm returning to my self-imposed exile from the Hulk forum. I've already spent FAR too much of my life arguing on these issues, I'd much prefer to spend it arguing on SHRA ones again.:wink:

XPac

04-07-2008, 04:12 PM

Eh, Black Botl I'll grant you if he was a Skrull, but it's quite possible that Clor went mad not due to any mistake on their part, but due to Skrellowjacket's meddling (Though even if he wasn't a Skrull, my money's still on Hank- he has a history with homicidal cyborgs. ;)) and I'd hardly qualify Strange's one considering it was only done BECAUSE of Hulk's vendetta.

Maybe the comparison would have been more on the ball if they turned into giant homicidal monsters when controlled and spent large periods of time like that while adopting totally seperate personas and attempting to murder those who try to stop them? :wink:

Nevertheless, you have clarified the line for me, so thanks ivesaidway2much. I now understand the (Significently flawed) reasoning behind it, even if I think that's completely bogus. In a way though, I'm sad- you have RUINED the most entertaining part of the crossover forever. :tongue:

And before anyone explodes, I've said my piece, so I'm returning to my self-imposed exile from the Hulk forum. I've already spent FAR too much of my life arguing on these issues, I'd much prefer to spend it arguing on SHRA ones again.:wink:

Skrull Yellow Jacket doesn't get Tony and Reed off the hook... they had the ability to shut Clor down when he killed Bill Foster and when he tried to kill the rest of the Secret Avengers.

SeritoNiN

04-07-2008, 04:15 PM

I would have made the series 4 issues instead of 6, because issue 4 and 5 were more fluff than a girl that keeps you hard. :wink:

I also would have linked the space ship blowing up to black bolt, or another hero that would have made sense, but is a skrull. I say black blot because he was in on the choice of sending hulk to skaar, which easily could have led to him sneaking aboard the ship and wanting to rid of hulk for the skrulls so he's not a threat in their invasion. Would have helped long-term planning, and certainly a much more dramatic effect, greik was just...meh..somewhat surprising, but not enough to make it memorable. Would have made a lot more sense to tie it in that way, seems using greik was a cheap way of getting Banner to just give up so easily by the "shock".

I'd of ended it openly. Civil War didn't have a true ending, neither did initiative really, I would have let Hulk get away and go hide off somewhere until the invasion. Keep with the trend, since from what I hear Invasion won't "end" in the fashion we're all used to, either.

CMBMOOL

04-07-2008, 04:35 PM

...I distinctly recall reading (And arguing with :P) dozens of posts on how the genius of World War Hulk was that Hulk proved by the end that everyone was a monster, not just him, and that this line illustrated this clearly, and was a work of genius, a masterpiece, etc.

...You mean to tell me that the Hulk was just being bitterly sarcastic and admitting that he was in fact the only monster present? :tongue:

And that was one of the MAIN reasons that even I can agree with Mags statement. :biggrin:

I mean even I loved it because the Hulk showed the heroes at their worst and they were cowards who hide behind their peers, except Tony who faced him head on.

And even when Hulk spared their lives Tony was still trying to arrest him. :frown:

I would just like to see him admit that he may have made a mistake when it came to banishing the Hulk. :frown:

DaeJi

04-07-2008, 05:04 PM

I would just like to see him admit that he may have made a mistake when it came to banishing the Hulk. :frown:

Tony did. Not that the Hulk would care. Honestly, I wish Pak had just made the Hulk the monster in the story and be done with it. His attempt to make everyone look like a monster was painful to watch, and I'm no fan of taking characters and twisting them to fit the plot. At least Tony was awesome in the story, after Civil War it's always great to see him written like a hero.

CMBMOOL

04-07-2008, 05:08 PM

Tony did. Not that the Hulk would care. Honestly, I wish Pak had just made the Hulk the monster in the story and be done with it. His attempt to make everyone look like a monster was painful to watch, and I'm no fan of taking characters and twisting them to fit the plot. At least Tony was awesome in the story, after Civil War it's always great to see him written like a hero.

When did Tony admit that he made a mistake with the Hulk, and don't say it was with that "I'm sorry" note in She-Hulk, because that was a jerk like way of saying it instead of Admiting it. :frown:

mikekerr3

04-07-2008, 05:31 PM

Tony did. Not that the Hulk would care. Honestly, I wish Pak had just made the Hulk the monster in the story and be done with it. His attempt to make everyone look like a monster was painful to watch, and I'm no fan of taking characters and twisting them to fit the plot. At least Tony was awesome in the story, after Civil War it's always great to see him written like a hero.

Trying to fix his own mess was heroic, Kidnapping a fellow original Avenger through deceit, and not bothering to ensure he ended up where sent was pure slime.

TheAmazingSpidey

04-07-2008, 05:43 PM

I just would have left Sentry out of it. I'm...not exactly fond of him. I mean, he's kinda okay, but...

ivesaidway2much

04-07-2008, 05:54 PM

Tony did. Not that the Hulk would care. Honestly, I wish Pak had just made the Hulk the monster in the story and be done with it. His attempt to make everyone look like a monster was painful to watch, and I'm no fan of taking characters and twisting them to fit the plot. At least Tony was awesome in the story, after Civil War it's always great to see him written like a hero.Tony act like a hero? Hmmm. You may not be a fan of twisting a character to fit the plot, but apparently you're perfectly fine with twisting the plot to fit the character.

XPac

04-07-2008, 05:54 PM

At least Tony was awesome in the story, after Civil War it's always great to see him written like a hero.

And that's kind of Hulks point. In a lot of instances, several members of the Illuminat weren't always written has heroes. So it's not like Pak pulled the notion that some of them were "monsters" out of thin air just for this story.

Though I do think the criticism against Strange was a bit manufactured. That one Pak had to create just for this story.

CaptainCanada

04-07-2008, 05:56 PM

The first issue was pretty much perfect (even, in retrospect, the Black Bolt fight, since he was probably a Skrull then), but after that it really has a lot of problems.

First and foremost, if Miek is going to be responsible for Sakaar's destruction, he (and the other Warbound, I suppose) really need more of a role in the actual story, more characterization, rather than just "oh, it was actually random Hulk minion #2" (keeping in mind that most people who read the crossover didn't read "Planet Hulk").

Pretty much all the fights after the Iron Man one really need to be redone, because they all completely lacked any kind of weight, since the Hulk and his minions are so ludicrously overpowered that there's no drama in who will win. Particularly in the case of Zom-Strange, where the solution is apparently the Hulk just pounding him enough until he goes away, which is really, really dumb.

The final fight between Hulk and Sentry is a complete mess; Pak can't decide if the Hulk is a brute or an all-knowing sage, and the Sentry just randomly goes nuts mid-fight for no particular reason. The Sentry should have won that fight, just because he has a bunch of powers that the Hulk doesn't have. Follow that with the Miek revelation, the attempt to kill Rick, then Hulka et al. are all taken off to jail.

Drdmx

04-07-2008, 06:02 PM

Though I do think the criticism against Strange was a bit manufactured. That one Pak had to create just for this story.

When I first read the issue, I agreed. However, I think it's hinting at a larger plot with Strange, esp. with whats going on with him and his recent power changes.

XPac

04-07-2008, 06:05 PM

When I first read the issue, I agreed. However, I think it's hinting at a larger plot with Strange, esp. with whats going on with him and his recent power changes.

That's true... Bendis certainly ran with it, and I DO agree there's a larger story here that definately needs to be told. And it all started in WWH.

But in specific reference to the arguement that Strange was a monster, I do think it was a bit weak that the arguement against Strange occured like 10 minutes ago.

Saint

04-07-2008, 07:29 PM

I'm at a loss to understand how an otherwise intelligent poster can fail so completely to grasp such a clear cut scene. Right up above in your post you note the absurdity of the Hulk's claim. But it's like your brain shuts off at that point when considering this scene. Let me try an illustration. If say, for instance, I were to type in an SHRA thread you posted on something like this:
Wow, Magneto Rocks is defending a questionable tactic Tony Stark used to achieve his goal. I NEVER saw that coming!!!

Would you honestly not be able to figure out what I actually meant?

The irony of the whole thing is that by destroying NYC, beating and torturing friends, and nearly "worldbreaking" planet earth, he proved Tony right. The reason Tony and crew shot him off into space was because every few months he'd go on a rampage and destroy things. In fact, his last rampage in Las Vegas was the last straw as far as the public goes and lead the way to the SHRA.

After WWH, I seriously doubt that the public sees Tony and all as monsters. If anything, they probably blame Tony for not shooting Hulk into the sun rather than another planet.

Now what the rest of the super hero community think of what Tony did is a whole 'nother conversation

Kage Kisaragi

04-07-2008, 08:06 PM

I would have shown Hulk knocking the uber crap out of Black Bolt on panel. It would have been a hit so hard the entire moon shuck to the point the Inhuman city based there would have crumbled. Black Bolt would have literally @#%$ his pants from the blow.

Iron Mans Hulk Buster Armor wouldn't have lasted more than 5 seconds. Hulk would have ripped him clean out of it and crushed Tony Stark in his bare hands.

He would have grabbed Reed and chewed on him like gum while berating the rest of the Fantastic Four, the Black Panther and Storm.

The ordeal between him and Strange would have went more or less the same.

Surfer would have shown up and berated Iron Man, Reed Richards (especially Richards), Strange and Black Bolt. Then offered to transport each of them to separate savage worlds for Hulk. Hulk would have refused by the idea but the idea just seemed to have a sense of irony.

Hulk would have destroyed all of Manhattan, not killing anyone but in doing so proclaimed the ruins of Manhattan "New Sakaar!" and imposed his own laws and basically have taken over the heart of New York. Any resistance from the Government and Hulk would stomp his foot and another state some where else in the United States would have sunken into the sea. He would boast that he could do this to any area no matter the size in the whole freaking world "Hence the governments of the world would recognize his power and label him the World Breaker." and left him to his own devices, he would never stop making Reed, Strange, Stark, or Bolt pay. They would be slaves to him, laboring to build his new Kingdom for his remaining subjects. They would have Strange find away to undo the deaths of Sakaar and Reed transport his former citizens to New Sakaar.

DaeJi

04-07-2008, 08:33 PM

Tony act like a hero? Hmmm. You may not be a fan of twisting a character to fit the plot, but apparently you're perfectly fine with twisting the plot to fit the character.

As a matter of fact, YES! That's what a writer is supposed to do. See, plots are very, very, very, very simple. Damn near all of them can be summed up in a sentence. Characters though, are complex. A plot can be twisted and bent and changed and shaped in all kinds of ways. Characters can't. Reed, Strange, the Avengers, T'Challa, etc. were badly written in World War Hulk.

Drdmx

04-07-2008, 09:21 PM

I know everyones anger over how Strange was written, how could Reed, the Avengers, and T'challa have done better?

Drdmx

04-07-2008, 09:31 PM

The irony of the whole thing is that by destroying NYC, beating and torturing friends, and nearly "worldbreaking" planet earth, he proved Tony right.

Sorry, but this is such a half truth.

A point that Daeji made earlier was spot on regarding the ones who shot him off being no different then him. You said the above quoted as if Hulk just woke up one day and decided to terrorize the hero community.

XPac

04-08-2008, 12:06 AM

The irony of the whole thing is that by destroying NYC, beating and torturing friends, and nearly "worldbreaking" planet earth, he proved Tony right. The reason Tony and crew shot him off into space was because every few months he'd go on a rampage and destroy things. In fact, his last rampage in Las Vegas was the last straw as far as the public goes and lead the way to the SHRA.

After WWH, I seriously doubt that the public sees Tony and all as monsters. If anything, they probably blame Tony for not shooting Hulk into the sun rather than another planet.

Now what the rest of the super hero community think of what Tony did is a whole 'nother conversation

Hulk has done so much for good than harm for mankind, planet earth, and on occasion even the entire universe that Tony's point really never fleshed out. I don't expect the public to necessarily understand that, but Tony himself and most heroes should.

Hell, more people died from Tony's Civil War with Cap than died during Hulks WWH.

alexr

04-08-2008, 03:38 AM

I'd probably have him kill Sentry. Put him out his misery. :evilsmile:

rZi

04-08-2008, 06:03 AM

Kage Kisaragi

04-08-2008, 07:06 AM

Earth heroe's wouldn't of been smashed by the warbound so easily. They deal with cosmic threats much worse weekly and they loose to a bunch of trainee gladiators? Nah...im not buying it.

The Hulk would of ended Sentry and then been stopped by earth heroes.

There were only two people who were relatively new to fighting and that was Miek and Elloe. Which is ironic since they were the two quickest to start a fight and systematically want Hulk to join in. Korg and Hitome Are both veteran warriors and Hitome has studied his peoples version of the "Art of War". making him that groups strategist, not to mention Korg took shots from Thor, Thor is a deity which puts him squarely above 90% of earth's heroes in terms of strength and durability. Korg < Hulk > Puny Humans.

Drdmx

04-08-2008, 07:15 AM

Yeah, I was kinda gonna note that the Warbound isnt just some pushover team.

The problem was that the art didnt really convey the way the Warbound fight. In actuallity, they work together pretty well with strategy to take down whatever challenge. This was conveyed very well throughout their trials in Planet Hulk. The way it was shown in WWH, they pretty much just grabbed all the heros, and then punched them in the faces.

I did think it was HILARIOUS though when they fought the Initiative, took down the majority of the team, and then proceeded to mudstomp Slapstick. Priceless.

ivesaidway2much

04-08-2008, 07:31 AM

As a matter of fact, YES! That's what a writer is supposed to do. See, plots are very, very, very, very simple. Damn near all of them can be summed up in a sentence. Characters though, are complex. A plot can be twisted and bent and changed and shaped in all kinds of ways. Characters can't. Reed, Strange, the Avengers, T'Challa, etc. were badly written in World War Hulk.I knew you were going to respond that way. Later on, I thought about re-wording my post, but I felt the shame of losing an internet argument, would be the best way to ensure that in the future I made my point clear the first time. Thank you.

Then again... Characters can't be twisted, changed, bent, and shaped in all kinds of ways? Have you ever read, saw, or listened to a work of fiction before?

The irony of the whole thing is that by destroying NYC, beating and torturing friends, and nearly "worldbreaking" planet earth, he proved Tony right. The reason Tony and crew shot him off into space was because every few months he'd go on a rampage and destroy things. In fact, his last rampage in Las Vegas was the last straw as far as the public goes and lead the way to the SHRA.

After WWH, I seriously doubt that the public sees Tony and all as monsters. If anything, they probably blame Tony for not shooting Hulk into the sun rather than another planet.Didn't Tony kill a bunch of people when Ultron took over his body and started knocking planes out of the sky? Using your logic, doesn't that make Tony an even bigger monster than the Hulk?

Tobias Drake

04-08-2008, 10:03 AM

I knew you were going to respond that way. Later on, I thought about re-wording my post, but I felt the shame of losing an internet argument, would be the best way to ensure that in the future I made my point clear the first time. Thank you.

Then again... Characters can't be twisted, changed, bent, and shaped in all kinds of ways? Have you ever read, saw, or listened to a work of fiction before?

Didn't Tony kill a bunch of people when Ultron took over his body and started knocking planes out of the sky? Using your logic, doesn't that make Tony an even bigger monster than the Hulk?

Only if Tony makes a habit of doing this every other Tuesday, like Hulk does.

CMBMOOL

04-08-2008, 10:15 AM

I see Tony Stark's role in World War Hulk as a Man trying to own up to his mistakes instead of letting others do it for him. To he he was a brave fool, but no hero in my eyes due to his role in Civil War, and the fact that like the Hulk he still has 'blood on his hands' thanks to his role in Civil war.:frown:

I would have liked it if Stark admited to the Hulk and maybe to the heroes that he made a mistake in sending him away without talking to him first. That there would have made me like the Illuminati role alittle better. :redface:

ivesaidway2much

04-08-2008, 12:08 PM

Only if Tony makes a habit of doing this every other Tuesday, like Hulk does.So then it's okay for Tony to kill hundreds if not thousands of innocent people, but it's not okay for the Hulk to take out 27? And, by the way, Tony's armor does get taken over seemingly every other Tuesday. It's practically his equivalent to Spider-man running out of web fluid.

I see Tony Stark's role in World War Hulk as a Man trying to own up to his mistakes instead of letting others do it for him. To he he was a brave fool, but no hero in my eyes due to his role in Civil War, and the fact that like the Hulk he still has 'blood on his hands' thanks to his role in Civil war.:frown:

I would have liked it if Stark admited to the Hulk and maybe to the heroes that he made a mistake in sending him away without talking to him first. That there would have made me like the Illuminati role alittle better. :redface:That's my real problem with Tony Stark. He doesn't apologize, and he refuses to learn from the mistakes he made during Civil War. If he'd at least tried to be a better person during WWH, his redemption could have started there and then. She-hulk #27 was the first time in a while I've read an issue with Iron Man in it, and didn't consider him to be a supervillain. Alittle contrition goes a long way.

Tobias Drake

04-08-2008, 12:48 PM

So then it's okay for Tony to kill hundreds if not thousands of innocent people, but it's not okay for the Hulk to take out 27? And, by the way, Tony's armor does get taken over seemingly every other Tuesday. It's practically his equivalent to Spider-man running out of web fluid.

That's my real problem with Tony Stark. He doesn't apologize, and he refuses to learn from the mistakes he made during Civil War. If he'd at least tried to be a better person during WWH, his redemption could have started there and then. She-hulk #27 was the first time in a while I've read an issue with Iron Man in it, and didn't consider him to be a supervillain. Alittle contrition goes a long way.

Yeah, but Tony's armor has to be taken over for it to happen. Going berserk and smashing things is what the Hulk does. It's the ONLY thing the Hulk does. He goes berserk and he smashes things. That's his entire shtick.

Tony at least has a decent, if not perfect antivirus system. But the Hulk goes berserk and smashes things regardless of whether or not he's in the right state of mind. Just because he doesn't kill anyone in the process doesn't really mean a lot when he's accruing millions upon millions of dollars of property damage, putting people out onto the streets homeless and destroying their livelihood, just because he's irritated about traffic. Even if he hasn't directly killed anyone, how many lives has he destroyed?

DaeJi

04-08-2008, 03:05 PM

I knew you were going to respond that way. Later on, I thought about re-wording my post, but I felt the shame of losing an internet argument, would be the best way to ensure that in the future I made my point clear the first time. Thank you.

I have no idea what you're going on about and I seriously feel relieved by that fact.

Then again... Characters can't be twisted, changed, bent, and shaped in all kinds of ways? Have you ever read, saw, or listened to a work of fiction before?

Twists in characters must make sense and flow from what has come before hand. If Storm woke up one day and decided to murder as many people as possible, there's a problem. To use similes, a plot is like clay (easy to mode and shape) and a character is like a piece of limestone (You have to work with the stone to shape it). You don't just bend characters.

Dr. Chaos

04-08-2008, 03:38 PM

ivesaidway2much

04-08-2008, 06:52 PM

Twists in characters must make sense and flow from what has come before hand. If Storm woke up one day and decided to murder as many people as possible, there's a problem. To use similes, a plot is like clay (easy to mode and shape) and a character is like a piece of limestone (You have to work with the stone to shape it). You don't just bend characters.Bucky has been twisted and bent into a new character. It seems like practically the only point of New Thunderbolts is to turn formally lame characters into badasses overnight. Bendis transformed D-man into raving lunatic with a messiah complex. Annihilation changed Richard Rider from a subordinate in a mostly failed superhero group into a universal commander and champion. Heck, my favorite Rhino story is the one where he became a super genius, and my favorite Galactus story is the one where he became a human. All of these moves were for the most part well received, and they were just the first few that came to mind. Although, I did omit the Hulk-related ones since he's the poster boy for sudden character changes leading to awesome stories. As far as I can tell, characters can be altered fairly easily and successfully.

CMBMOOL

04-08-2008, 07:26 PM

In the Illuminati, the only people I got the impression that really cared about Banner were Reed and Strange.

I actually felt kind of bad for Reed during the last part of WWH when he was talking about helping Bruce this time, realizing how bad he ****ed up.

Behind that jackass exterior, Reed's got a big heart, it's a shame he listens to people like Tony Stark and Alyssa Moy more than he does it.

Seriously, he's pretty much tied with Pym for biggest victim of superhero peer pressure.

I thought Namor's attack against the Illuminati for the Hulk's exile made me think that deep down he does care about the Hulk. :frown:

Still, you made a good point in showing that Reed does understand his mistakes and tries his best to fix them. Just like how he stood up to Tony during the Fantastic Four Initaitive tie-in. :biggrin:

Desmodus

04-08-2008, 07:59 PM

I would have had the Hulk kill the Sentry.

DaeJi

04-08-2008, 08:38 PM

Bucky has been twisted and bent into a new character. It seems like practically the only point of New Thunderbolts is to turn formally lame characters into badasses overnight. Bendis transformed D-man into raving lunatic with a messiah complex. Annihilation changed Richard Rider from a subordinate in a mostly failed superhero group into a universal commander and champion. Heck, my favorite Rhino story is the one where he became a super genius, and my favorite Galactus story is the one where he became a human. All of these moves were for the most part well received, and they were just the first few that came to mind. Although, I did omit the Hulk-related ones since he's the poster boy for sudden character changes leading to awesome stories. As far as I can tell, characters can be altered fairly easily and successfully.

Having a story alter a character is different from misusing a character for a story. Reed didn't change in WWH, but he was twisted and underwritten so that Pak could tell his story. It's simple.

DaeJi

04-08-2008, 08:39 PM

I thought Namor's attack against the Illuminati for the Hulk's exile made me think that deep down he does care about the Hulk. :frown:

I would have loved to see Namor just show up at the end of everything and call everyone a dumbass. It would completely in character, and he would be so very right.

ivesaidway2much

04-08-2008, 09:18 PM

Having a story alter a character is different from misusing a character for a story. Reed didn't change in WWH, but he was twisted and underwritten so that Pak could tell his story. It's simple.Are we talking about the same guy who thought shooting the Hulk into space was a good idea based off a moderately funny passing remark made by Ben Grimm, couldn't think of a better way to stop a ragtag group of street-level heroes and Hercules other than cloning a dead friend and then crossing those cloned cells with a lame rip-off of the Terminator despite having a massive numbers/powers and brains advantage, and believed using the same building where his children slept as a temporary rest stop for transporting criminals/unregistered combatants to a prison in the Negative zone was reasonable tactic? How was he twisted and underwritten again?

Kage Kisaragi

04-08-2008, 09:50 PM

Yeah, but Tony's armor has to be taken over for it to happen. Going berserk and smashing things is what the Hulk does. It's the ONLY thing the Hulk does. He goes berserk and he smashes things. That's his entire shtick.

Spoken like a person who truly doesn't read or understand the character behind the Incredible Hulk.

TradePaperbackTraitor

04-09-2008, 06:19 AM

I'd have made WWH proper longer than 5 issues to be certain, and I'd have probably had him force Reed to kill Stark, andactually go through with it. I do hate me some Ironman, not just these days, but always.

I would have never involved the Sentry at all, and I would have ended it with Thor, and the resto f the God's returning to battle Hulk and his Warbound. (This wouldn't have just happened, there would have been a tie-in so it happened bit by bit).

Robert Kirkman recently mentioned in one of those last-page quick interviews Marvel likes to publish that one of the wierdest things he ever saw at a convention were two fans arguing over who would win in a battle of Thor Vs. Hulk. They were about to pound each other over the issue before security pulled them apart, and even then they were shouting "Hulk!" or "Thor!" as they were dragged away.

I guess we could have seen who would win that argument. :wink:

Saint

04-09-2008, 09:44 AM

Robert Kirkman recently mentioned in one of those last-page quick interviews Marvel likes to publish that one of the wierdest things he ever saw at a convention were two fans arguing over who would win in a battle of Thor Vs. Hulk. They were about to pound each other over the issue before security pulled them apart, and even then they were shouting "Hulk!" or "Thor!" as they were dragged away.

I guess we could have seen who would win that argument. :wink:

Hahahahahaha!!! Fanboys....:rolleyes:

Tobias Drake

04-09-2008, 10:05 AM

Spoken like a person who truly doesn't read or understand the character behind the Incredible Hulk.

I'll admit that I haven't read much before Planet Hulk (which, I should note, was excellent and sold me on the Hulk as a character). So tell me, outside of smashing things, what else does the Hulk do?

matthewaos

04-09-2008, 03:41 PM

If you read the classic David run, he also fights with his inner self. A lot.

As for WWH, I would make it happen only in the mini and the main title (incredible hulk)

Tobias Drake

04-09-2008, 03:57 PM

If you read the classic David run, he also fights with his inner self. A lot.

Does he smash things with his outer self while doing so? :tongue:

mikekerr3

04-09-2008, 05:24 PM

I'll admit that I haven't read much before Planet Hulk (which, I should note, was excellent and sold me on the Hulk as a character). So tell me, outside of smashing things, what else does the Hulk do?

Save the world fairly regularly, gets Drafted to defuse bombs. Fights people that would eat Stark for breakfast. Was an original Avenger. Usually only gets in fights when greatly provoked by a supervillian, most of wich could take out any one short of Thor or the Hulk.

His worst rampages have been attack without provocation (FF) or had his mind messed with (Doc Sampson).

Mostly he just grumbles about humans and leaves everyone alone unless someone needs help or attacks him.

Tobias Drake

04-09-2008, 06:48 PM

Save the world fairly regularly, gets Drafted to defuse bombs.

By smashing things.

Fights people that would eat Stark for breakfast.

By smashing them.

Was an original Avenger.

Wasn't he removed from the lineup for going berserk and smashing things, very early on?

Usually only gets in fights when greatly provoked by a supervillian, most of wich could take out any one short of Thor or the Hulk.

At which point he goes berserk and smashes things.

His worst rampages have been attack without provocation (FF) or had his mind messed with (Doc Sampson).

Berserk rampages with smashing things that happened because he was provoked are still berserk rampages and smashing things.

Mostly he just grumbles about humans and leaves everyone alone unless someone needs help or attacks him.

At which point, he goes berserk and smashes things. Anyone notice a pattern here?

The only guaranteed, surefire, way to make sure the Hulk never goes berserk and smashes anything anymore is to find some way to isolate him from the entire planet, so that nothing can provoke him and cause him to go berserk and smash things. Which is exactly what the Illuminati attempted to do, and it would have worked had the Shadow Priests of Sakaar not hijacked his ship.

CMBMOOL

04-09-2008, 06:56 PM

Does he smash things with his outer self while doing so? :tongue:

Why don't you take a look at some of these issues...

http://www.leaderslair.com/gammapeople/strugglewithin/struggle.html

Drdmx

04-09-2008, 06:56 PM

Tobias, c'mon give it arrest.

It's like going on and on that all Stark does is put his suit on and blast things.

Tobias Drake

04-09-2008, 06:59 PM

Tobias, c'mon give it arrest.

It's like going on and on that all Stark does is put his suit on and blast things.

And I'd be critical of Stark too if he was still doing that drunk. Which the influence of gamma radiation now has a legal precedent of being as, if not more, judgment impairing as. I'm not denying that Bruce Banner is a good character and that there are good stories that can be told with him. What I am denying is that the Hulk, by simple merit of being the title character of a book, deserves special treatment when the only methodology he employs is to destroy everything in his path. A violent berserker aimed in just the right direction is still a violent berserker. I like the Hulk, I like the stories I've seen of him, I loved him as the hero of Planet Hulk and the villain of World War Hulk. But that doesn't mean I'm going to say it's okay that he levels four city blocks whenever he's feeling grumpy.

Drdmx

04-09-2008, 07:05 PM

mikekerr3

04-09-2008, 07:08 PM

And I'd be critical of Stark too if he was still doing that drunk. Which the influence of gamma radiation now has a legal precedent of being as, if not more, judgment impairing as. I'm not denying that Bruce Banner is a good character and that there are good stories that can be told with him. What I am denying is that the Hulk, by simple merit of being the title character of a book, deserves special treatment when the only methodology he employs is to destroy everything in his path. A violent berserker aimed in just the right direction is still a violent berserker. I like the Hulk, I like the stories I've seen of him, I loved him as the hero of Planet Hulk and the villain of World War Hulk. But that doesn't mean I'm going to say it's okay that he levels four city blocks whenever he's feeling grumpy.

He doesn't on the whole he just smashes the people or thing that bothers him. His only methodology is not to smash everything in his path. Its not even him main method historically.

It's good that you know so much about a forty year old character without reading the books.

And he was not thrown off the avengers for going berserk. He was driven out by Stark out of fear.

The Fantastic Four attacked him for no reason and he smashed them up pretty well, but after they stopped he stopped.

Tobias Drake

04-09-2008, 07:35 PM

Using that same logic, Spiderman is more evil than all the villains he's fought simply because he inspires more and more villains' creation. As a matter of fact, there was an issue on that, which Thanos made that very same argument. Peter defeated the point, and Death herself supported it.

It'd be like telling Tony that he needs to exhile himself from the world, since by in large, all he tries to do is make it a better place, but ends up making it worse and worse.

Both Spidey and Tony are capable of logic and coherent reasoning, and know when and how to employ solutions that are not violent ones. Tell me honestly because I want to know: how often does the Hulk deal diplomatically? How often does he attempt to talk to his opponent and reason with him logically? How often does he go out of his way to avoid fighting the person he's angry with, and try to find a better solution that will incur minimum damage to property and people alike? Simply put, how often does the Hulk try to find a better solution than fighting?

mikekerr3

04-09-2008, 08:44 PM

Both Spidey and Tony are capable of logic and coherent reasoning, and know when and how to employ solutions that are not violent ones. Tell me honestly because I want to know: how often does the Hulk deal diplomatically? How often does he attempt to talk to his opponent and reason with him logically? How often does he go out of his way to avoid fighting the person he's angry with, and try to find a better solution that will incur minimum damage to property and people alike? Simply put, how often does the Hulk try to find a better solution than fighting?

Most of the time. He tells the "puny humans" to leave him alone. If they persist he defends himself very exuberantly. The Hulk starting a fight is very rare, finishing on is pretty common though.

He is kind to children, old people and people who treat him like a person. Will fight to protect these people. He doesn't attempt to reason with people very much though. He's not very bright. But the people who attack him get fair warning to back down,

Tobias Drake

04-09-2008, 11:28 PM

Most of the time. He tells the "puny humans" to leave him alone. If they persist he defends himself very exuberantly. The Hulk starting a fight is very rare, finishing on is pretty common though.

He is kind to children, old people and people who treat him like a person. Will fight to protect these people. He doesn't attempt to reason with people very much though. He's not very bright. But the people who attack him get fair warning to back down,

But that's different. I'm not just talking about people attacking him. If the Leader is planning to kill a hundred people, will the Hulk try to talk to him? Either to try and convince him rationally before falling back on violence, or as a distraction for a smarter, more clever plan that will ultimately save everyone's lives and doom the Leader? Or will he just start smashing things and hitting people?

mikekerr3

04-09-2008, 11:46 PM

But that's different. I'm not just talking about people attacking him. If the Leader is planning to kill a hundred people, will the Hulk try to talk to him? Either to try and convince him rationally before falling back on violence, or as a distraction for a smarter, more clever plan that will ultimately save everyone's lives and doom the Leader? Or will he just start smashing things and hitting people?

Nobody has talked the leader out of anything, ever. The appropriate tactic is to pound him. I would like to see Tony Stark trying logic on the abomination or any of Hulks recurring characters. Many of them would just turn him into canned paste if he wasted that much time. Hulk is pretty good a destroying what needs to be destroyed. He only goes really wacko when some idiot like the Quack Samson tries to mess with his mind.

Just think of him losing it as Tony having a bad firewall. He ocasionally cause destuction without really meaning to. Tony has got to stop buying his anti-virus from Microsoft:biggrin:

Tobias Drake

04-09-2008, 11:48 PM

Nobody has talked the leader out of anything, ever. The appropriate tactic is to pound him. I would like to see Tony Stark trying logic on the abomination or any of Hulks recurring characters. Many of them would just turn him into canned paste if he wasted that much time. Hulk is pretty good a destroying what needs to be destroyed. He only goes really wacko when some idiot like the Quack Samson tries to mess with his mind.

Just think of him losing it as Tony having a bad firewall. He ocasionally cause destuction without really meaning to. Tony has got to stop buying his anti-virus from Microsoft:biggrin:

Yeah, except him losing it really isn't that much different from him not losing it. The Leader was just one example. Henry Hellrung defeated Namor without throwing a single punch. How would Hulk have handled it? And how much of California would be in ruins by the time he was finished?

ivesaidway2much

04-10-2008, 08:21 AM

Yeah, except him losing it really isn't that much different from him not losing it. The Leader was just one example. Henry Hellrung defeated Namor without throwing a single punch. How would Hulk have handled it? And how much of California would be in ruins by the time he was finished?Maybe a quarter of a block. The Hulk would destroy Namor on land pretty easily. And when did talking to supervillains become a viable tactic? Why do you hold the Hulk to a higher standard than other heroes? Do the Avengers talk down Kang? Do the X-men negotiate with Apocalypse? Does Captain America try to appeal to the innate goodness in the Red Skull? Does Dr. Strange try to get in touch with Dormammu's inner child?

Anyway, are you sure you read Planet Hulk? There were at least four different occassions where the Hulk chose the least violent route when most would not. The monster that the Sakaarans were feeding gladiators to, the guards at the gladiator training grounds, the village that killed most of Miek's family, and the Spikes were all at least temporarily spared because the Hulk showed them mercy.

And that's hardly a new phenomenon. A few classic examples are some of my favorite Hulk stories. Peter Parker v2 #14 (I think?) where Peter, who is grief-stricken because he believes Mary Jane died in a plane crash goes out looking , goes out patrolling/looking for a fight. He runs into the Hulk, blames him for Mary Jane's death based on some flimsy excuse related to the time the Hulk was framed for taking down a plane, and attacks. The Hulk, who understands more than most what it's like to lose a wife, lets Peter hit him a bunch of times. When Peter had worked off some of his frustration, the Hulk expressed his condolences for "bug-man". In Incredible Hulk #419, the Hulk pretends to fear for his life and begs for mercy from the Skrull, Talos the Tamed, because he felt sorry for Talos and knew he would probably kill the Skrull if he actually fought back.

For the most part, the only time the Hulk is like the character you describe is in throw away cameos like Daredevil #181 or Thor #385, where he just materializes in a city and starts smashing stuff so the "hero" of the comic has something to fight.

XPac

04-10-2008, 09:18 AM

By smashing things.

By smashing them.

Wasn't he removed from the lineup for going berserk and smashing things, very early on?

At which point he goes berserk and smashes things.

Berserk rampages with smashing things that happened because he was provoked are still berserk rampages and smashing things.

At which point, he goes berserk and smashes things. Anyone notice a pattern here?

The only guaranteed, surefire, way to make sure the Hulk never goes berserk and smashes anything anymore is to find some way to isolate him from the entire planet, so that nothing can provoke him and cause him to go berserk and smash things. Which is exactly what the Illuminati attempted to do, and it would have worked had the Shadow Priests of Sakaar not hijacked his ship.

Of course, that logic factors out the fact that Hulk smashing things the majority of the time serves the greater good. More times than not, when Hulk is smashing things he's doing it to stop a bigger threat than he is.

If you'd bother reading the Hulk book over the past few decades you'd see issue after issue of him saving lives and stopping villains. That's the bulk of what he goes around doing. And WWH clearly illustrates that he's able to do it with a very marginal amount of casualties (like honestly most heroes are magically able to do... CW being a strange exception). In other words, more often than not Hulk is more the sollution to a problem than the actual problem.

As far as the Illuminati's sollution working... Stark himself flat out admitted to She-Hulk that he knew it wouldn't. He knew he'd be back.

ivesaidway2much

04-10-2008, 10:15 AM

The only guaranteed, surefire, way to make sure the Hulk never goes berserk and smashes anything anymore is to find some way to isolate him from the entire planet, so that nothing can provoke him and cause him to go berserk and smash things. Which is exactly what the Illuminati attempted to do, and it would have worked had the Shadow Priests of Sakaar not hijacked his ship.The only guaranteed, surefire, way to make sure Spider-man, Iron Man, Captain America, the Fantastic Four, the Avengers, the X-men, and practically every other superhero never goes berserk and smashes anything anymore is to find some way to isolate them from the entire planet, so that nothing can provoke/control them and cause them to go berserk and smash things. Which exactly why the Illuminati failed when they chose to target only the Hulk.

By the way, the Shadow Priests had little to do with the Illuminati's plan failing. The only chance their original plan had of working is if Banner was willing to remain in exile AND he found some way to suppress all super genius incarnations of the Hulk. Since the whole point of shooting the Hulk into space is that they didn't trust Banner to control the Hulk, it was actually quite idiotic to have their whole plan hinge on it happening.

XPac

04-10-2008, 10:28 AM

The only guaranteed, surefire, way to make sure Spider-man, Iron Man, Captain America, the Fantastic Four, the Avengers, the X-men, and practically every other superhero never goes berserk and smashes anything anymore is to find some way to isolate him from the entire planet, so that nothing can provoke/control them and cause them to go berserk and smash things. Which exactly why the Illuminati failed when they chose to target only the Hulk.

By the way, the Shadow Priests had little to do with the Illuminati's plan failing. The only chance their original plan had of working is if Banner was willing to remain in exile AND he found some way to suppress all super genius incarnations of the Hulk. Since the whole point of shooting the Hulk into space is that they didn't trust Banner to control the Hulk, it was actually quite idiotic to have their whole plan rely on it happening.

Exactly. Had they talked to Bruce about this and gotten him to cooperate, perhaps Hulk would have stayed away. Perhaps both Bruce and Hulk would have gone along with the exile... if that's the case, there would have been a much better chance that he would choose to stay away. The way the Illuminati did things creates the possibility that Hulk would return wanting revenge (meaning he'd likely be angier, more powerful and thus more dangerous).

Tobias Drake

04-10-2008, 11:18 AM

Maybe a quarter of a block. The Hulk would destroy Namor on land pretty easily. And when did talking to supervillains become a viable tactic? Why do you hold the Hulk to a higher standard than other heroes? Do the Avengers talk down Kang? Do the X-men negotiate with Apocalypse? Does Captain America try to appeal to the innate goodness in the Red Skull? Does Dr. Strange try to get in touch with Dormammu's inner child?

Anyway, are you sure you read Planet Hulk? There were at least four different occassions where the Hulk chose the least violent route when most would not. The monster that the Sakaarans were feeding gladiators to, the guards at the gladiator training grounds, the village that killed most of Miek's family, and the Spikes were all at least temporarily spared because the Hulk showed them mercy.

And that's hardly a new phenomenon. A few classic examples are some of my favorite Hulk stories. Peter Parker v2 #14 (I think?) where Peter, who is grief-stricken because he believes Mary Jane died in a plane crash goes out looking , goes out patrolling/looking for a fight. He runs into the Hulk, blames him for Mary Jane's death based on some flimsy excuse related to the time the Hulk was framed for taking down a plane, and attacks. The Hulk, who understands more than most what it's like to lose a wife, lets Peter hit him a bunch of times. When Peter had worked off some of his frustration, the Hulk expressed his condolences for "bug-man". In Incredible Hulk #419, the Hulk pretends to fear for his life and begs for mercy from the Skrull, Talos the Tamed, because he felt sorry for Talos and knew he would probably kill the Skrull if he actually fought back.

For the most part, the only time the Hulk is like the character you describe is in throw away cameos like Daredevil #181 or Thor #385, where he just materializes in a city and starts smashing stuff so the "hero" of the comic has something to fight.

Okay. I stand corrected, and will take this under consideration. Thank you.

Drdmx

04-10-2008, 02:09 PM

Havent been around the internet much in the last 2 days, but yeah, it looks like things were covered for the most part. Good stuff IvesaidwaytoMuch

Tobias Drake

04-12-2008, 10:32 PM

Instead of Banner floating in a jar, the final scene would have had a couple pages of the characters gathered mournfully around this.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/tobiasdrake/HulkTombstone.jpg

Frank

04-22-2008, 10:55 PM

I think Marvel wanted to try and "contain" it too much. I think most of the ideas on message boards I read from fans were better than what actually happened to WWH. Plus for an angry monster/God, we thought Hulk would whip the floor with everybody and not only the guys he tried to get revenge from were just a little beat-up but the damages to the city and the World were rather minimal.

I think the best idea was the first one that they came up at the Marvel rethreat: have the real Thor and Hulk reappear during Civil War.

Frank

04-22-2008, 11:00 PM

Also a great idea would have been for Hulk to exile the four that this to him. Doctor Strange to another dimension. Reed to space. Black Bolt would never be able to see his people again. Tony would escape. Just in the case of Reed it would have given the FF book months even years of stories of the team becoming explorers again trying to find Reed in space.

Drdmx

04-22-2008, 11:55 PM

Plus for an angry monster/God, we thought Hulk would whip the floor with everybody and not only the guys he tried to get revenge from were just a little beat-up but the damages to the city and the World were rather minimal.

Lost me here. What more did you want to see as far as his revenge? Sure it wasnt long and drawn out, but he utterly defeated some of the most powerful heroes that stood against him. He made the ones who sent him away relive his own torment (Sakaar trials, and hearing the blame of the public without being able to explain) and then finished by throwing it all in their faces by never intending to kill them in the first place. :confused:

In any event, I'm not sure about your exile idea. How do you even get Strange into another dimension? And isnt he like.. the sorcerer supreme? Cant he.. ya know, warp back? I'm sure Reed could probably just build another ship and find his way home. :wink:

Frank

04-26-2008, 11:42 PM

Lost me here. What more did you want to see as far as his revenge? Sure it wasnt long and drawn out, but he utterly defeated some of the most powerful heroes that stood against him. He made the ones who sent him away relive his own torment (Sakaar trials, and hearing the blame of the public without being able to explain) and then finished by throwing it all in their faces by never intending to kill them in the first place. :confused:

For one thing I think destroying the whole Planet Hulk was kind of stupid. Since he didn't need that to take his revenge. These guys exiled him, shouldn't have been enough to lay that Smaketh Down on their candy asses? Have him come with a whole Armada. It's War of the Worlds, Worlds Collides. Instead we got Hulk, one ship and six of his warrior friends. I've seen more scarier. Also Hulk is a monster, he needed to come here and destroy like he always did in the past. Not just build an arena and warn people to go away "because OMG it's gonna get dangerous". It should have been a full-fledge invasion Earth is doomed.

In any event, I'm not sure about your exile idea. How do you even get Strange into another dimension? And isnt he like.. the sorcerer supreme? Cant he.. ya know, warp back? I'm sure Reed could probably just build another ship and find his way home. :wink:

You make sure it's a dimension he's not gonna get back from. You make sure Reed is at a place where he's never gonna get out of. How about this: Strange in Hell, Reed in another crazy version of sub-space. Because all they were sumitted to was an arena and they beat themselves up. Wich is exactly what I thought Marvel would do. I said to myself:"they're gonna get beat but there will be no coinsequences". No real punishments, nothing. Indeed that's what happened. Heck even Sentry is pretty much fine in the pages of Mighty Avengers. It's almost like nothing happened. You've seen any damages in New York in other books? Nope. The whole event was designed to be contained by Marvel. A six issues book, get in, get out. People have fun seeing Hulk fighting. But that's it. I think the most powerful force in the Marvel Universe deserved more than that.

Tobias Drake

04-27-2008, 12:12 AM

For one thing I think destroying the whole Planet Hulk was kind of stupid. Since he didn't need that to take his revenge. These guys exiled him, shouldn't have been enough to lay that Smaketh Down on their candy asses?

Honestly? No, it really wasn't. By the end of Planet Hulk, the Hulk had made peace with his situation. He had a beautiful bride, a child on the way, and was the beloved Green King. He found people that finally, truly accepted him in a way that no longer made him yearn to "be left alone". He was truly happy.

He had no reason to go back to Earth to seek vengeance. From where he was sitting, Earth could go screw themselves. He was happy where he was. And that is the core of the rage that made him so powerful in WWH: because he was completely, absolutely happy, and he lost that in a single instance of random destruction.

You've seen any damages in New York in other books?

Avengers: The Initiative showed a destroyed New York, and Damage Control's mini pretty much covered their overnight reconstruction.

Drdmx

04-27-2008, 02:49 AM

Pretty much what Tobias said.

Oh, and I thought Damage Control was a hilarious mini. Good writing in that one. Arch-E is the best!

Frank

05-20-2008, 10:03 PM

Honestly? No, it really wasn't. By the end of Planet Hulk, the Hulk had made peace with his situation. He had a beautiful bride, a child on the way, and was the beloved Green King. He found people that finally, truly accepted him in a way that no longer made him yearn to "be left alone". He was truly happy.

He had no reason to go back to Earth to seek vengeance. From where he was sitting, Earth could go screw themselves. He was happy where he was. And that is the core of the rage that made him so powerful in WWH: because he was completely, absolutely happy, and he lost that in a single instance of random destruction.

First of all when people heard that WWHulk was about Hulk coming back for revenge the idea was that people were ravishing that he would attack the Illuminatti because of what they did to him. It was never about anything other than that. The fact that he was this happy king defeated the purpose of the whole thing. Plus it wasn't original since it has happened to Hulk many times. Like when he was happy and King in Jarella's World. But Marvel and Pak did this to make Hulk even more mad when the bomb would destory everything. Well to me it deprived them of many story possibilities. What should have happened is this: Hulk land on a Hellish World, conquer it, then comes to Earth with thousand angry aliens to lay the Smaketh Down.

Avengers: The Initiative showed a destroyed New York, and Damage Control's mini pretty much covered their overnight reconstruction.

We didn't see much beyond that. All of ti was pretty contained. Weak job by Marvel.

TradePaperbackTraitor

05-21-2008, 04:04 AM

Well, first of all.... I would have better explained the Planet Hulk storyline. I would want more adamant proof that The Illuminati were responsible for the explosion. Not just blind scapegoat rage by the Hulk. Hulk is pretty smart, I would have liked to have seen a fake video from the Illuminati explaining their decision.... ANYTHING more concrete! I don't know if I would have gone all out with the crossovers. I might have even kept it in the Hulk books, just like Planet Hulk.

It would have been six issues, each issue focused on one member of The Illuminati. Maybe each cover has a heading like "Target: Namor" or "Target: Iron Man." I'd like them deluxe editions with more pages to tell the story. Each issue would be a battle royale. To hell with current continuity. I guess Professor X is out of commission right now, so I would have changed the timeline in the story. Each issue would be a battle of Hulk and his Warbound (who were severely ignored in WWH) against a certain faction. Professor X and the mutant teams, Namor and the armies of Atlantis, Iron Man and SHIELD, Black Bolt and the Inhumans, Reed Richards and the Fantastic Four, and Dr. Strange with most of Marvel's mystical heroes on his side.

It would have been a blood bath. Several Warbound would be taken out. Each Illuminati member would be collected, not for gladiator battles, but for Hulk's own peace of mind. I think the last member of the Illuminati on his list would have to die. It would be very appropriate to make it Iron Man, but not realistic because of his movie. Just as Hulk is going overboard with his brutality and accidentally kills his last target, the proof is brought forward. Maybe a subplot with Rick Jones and other Hulk characters trying to investigate what happened and finally discovering the truth at the end?

I would have had a shocked Hulk realizing what he's done as he surveys the damage. The vanquished Illuminati member in his shadow. Several deceased members of his Warbound scattered around in the final battle. It would have been a mental breakdown for the Hulk, a forced retreat to the Bruce Banner persona. Some of these ideas are akin to what happened, but I felt there was so much more they could have done with the World War Hulk theme.

Tobias Drake

05-21-2008, 07:36 AM

First of all when people heard that WWHulk was about Hulk coming back for revenge the idea was that people were ravishing that he would attack the Illuminatti because of what they did to him. It was never about anything other than that. The fact that he was this happy king defeated the purpose of the whole thing. Plus it wasn't original since it has happened to Hulk many times. Like when he was happy and King in Jarella's World. But Marvel and Pak did this to make Hulk even more mad when the bomb would destory everything. Well to me it deprived them of many story possibilities. What should have happened is this: Hulk land on a Hellish World, conquer it, then comes to Earth with thousand angry aliens to lay the Smaketh Down.

We didn't see much beyond that. All of ti was pretty contained. Weak job by Marvel.

The problem with that, however, is that they wanted Hulk to still be somewhat viable as a hero when all was said and done. Countless superhero vs. superhero conflicts are built on misunderstanding, and superheroes' strange tendency to punch it out of each other instead of talking it out (probably because comic readers tend not to want to spend $3.99 for a DareDevil vs. Spider-Man comic in which they discuss their differences, realize they were wrong, and move on to a common goal without ever a punch being thrown).

To many readers, the scenario in which Hulk comes back angry to lay siege to the world sets him up as a supervillain, an otherworldly alien conqueror come to destroy Earth. In which case, he would no longer be a viable character as a superhero. It's reminiscent of X-Men's Dark Phoenix Saga; the writer had every intention of bringing Jean Grey back into the X-Men when all was said and done, but as the story droned on, he realized that after everything she had done, there was simply no justifiable way to have her go on happily with her life afterwards as though nothing ever happened.

So they set up this grand misunderstanding so they could fold at the end and say, "See? Hulk wasn't a bad guy. He just didn't have all the information, and went off in a berserk rage like he always does. He's still a hero! Now let's give him one big, heroic finish." If they had been willing to close the story with the Hulk being a villain, WWH could have been significantly better.

CMBMOOL

05-21-2008, 08:16 AM

If they had been willing to close the story with the Hulk being a villain, WWH could have been significantly better.

Okay explain to me again just how WWH would have ended better if the Hulk was a villain at the end as opposed to his lengthy history as an anti-hero ? :frown:

Tobias Drake

05-21-2008, 10:24 AM

Okay explain to me again just how WWH would have ended better if the Hulk was a villain at the end as opposed to his lengthy history as an anti-hero ? :frown:

The story itself, World War Hulk, would have ended better if they'd been willing to go all the way with the Hulk's angry return. Instead, they suddenly turncoated on everything they'd been building up since the beginning of WWH to create the anticlimactic finish that issue 5 has. They needed to stop in the middle of making the Hulk truly villainous because they were afraid that if they pushed too hard, he would become irredeemable in the eyes of many. Issue 5 was packed full of backpedaling over the rest of the event to make the Hulk look heroic again so that he would continue to be a viable protagonist, and that's why it ended on such an anticlimactic note.

Basically, they did a "Hulk comes to smash everything" storyline that ended with, "Oh, crap, Hulk is smashing everything. No, no, he's still a hero! Look, he's being heroic! Hulk, stop smashing things, we're trying to sell you as a hero for future stories."

XPac

05-21-2008, 10:29 AM

The story itself, World War Hulk, would have ended better if they'd been willing to go all the way with the Hulk's angry return. Instead, they suddenly turncoated on everything they'd been building up since the beginning of WWH to create the anticlimactic finish that issue 5 has. They needed to stop in the middle of making the Hulk truly villainous because they were afraid that if they pushed too hard, he would become irredeemable in the eyes of many. Issue 5 was packed full of backpedaling over the rest of the event to make the Hulk look heroic again so that he would continue to be a viable protagonist, and that's why it ended on such an anticlimactic note.

Basically, they did a "Hulk comes to smash everything" storyline that ended with, "Oh, crap, Hulk is smashing everything. No, no, he's still a hero! Look, he's being heroic! Hulk, stop smashing things, we're trying to sell you as a hero for future stories."

I think the problem is that you're misterpreting exactly what they were building up to.

Cho was telling anyone who would listen that Hulk wasn't the monster that people were making him out to be (a statement that is largely backed up by decades worth of comics potraying him as the hero).

The point was that he wasn't a villain, regardless of how hard he was pushed. Is what they're doing really that different than what people complain about with Iron Man? Should they just just fully made Iron Man a villain in Civil War? Would that have made a better story? No... because at the end of the day both Hulk and Iron Man are heroes. They have been for decades, the both will be decades from now, and a single storyline trying to potray them as actual villains really shouldn't derail that.

Tobias Drake

05-21-2008, 10:31 AM

I think the problem is that you're misterpreting exactly what they were building up to.

Cho was telling anyone who would listen that Hulk wasn't the monster that people were making him out to be (a statement that is largely backed up by decades worth of comics potraying him as the hero).

The point was that he wasn't a villain, regardless of how hard he was pushed. Is what they're doing really that different than what people complain about with Iron Man? Should they just just fully made Iron Man a villain in Civil War? Would that have made a better story? No... because at the end of the day both Hulk and Iron Man are heroes. They have been for decades, the both will be decades from now, and a single storyline trying to potray them as actual villains really shouldn't derail that.

Except that wasn't the point they were building to, as the final scene had Cho discovering that yes, the Hulk is the monster, and he is wrong. That entire scene completely ruins any "The Hulk is not a monster" argument that the storyline can be argued to have been making, as even Cho himself was forced to admit that the Hulk was about to kill them all.

So after all the backpedaling to try and make the Hulk look less dangerous, they suddenly completely flop on it AGAIN and say, "Oh, wait, no, the Hulk is going to destroy the world, someone stop him", which begs the question of what the point of all the "Hulk is not a monster" scenes was in the first place.

XPac

05-21-2008, 10:40 AM

Except that wasn't the point they were building to, as the final scene had Cho discovering that yes, the Hulk is the monster, and he is wrong. That entire scene completely ruins any "The Hulk is not a monster" argument that the storyline can be argued to have been making, as even Cho himself was forced to admit that the Hulk was about to kill them all.

So after all the backpedaling to try and make the Hulk look less dangerous, they suddenly completely flop on it AGAIN and say, "Oh, wait, no, the Hulk is going to destroy the world, someone stop him", which begs the question of what the point of all the "Hulk is not a monster" scenes was in the first place.

Jen has gone nuts before and endangered people. Is She-Hulk a monster? I would argue no. Being a gamma radiated person can effect you mentally... heck, that was flat out proven in a court of law. Hulk (and Banner) are both mentally ill. But they're also both not villains. That was the point... and one that frankly shouldn't have come to the suprise of anyone who has botherd reading decades worth of Hulk stories clearly illustrating that point.

Again, just substitute Iron Man/Civil War for Hulk/WWH and you'll be able to understand the downside of making a character go all the way with the villain thing. When you've got a character that has been a hero for decades, and will continue to be a hero for decades to come, one throw away story isn't worth it.

Frank

05-21-2008, 11:04 AM

The problem with that, however, is that they wanted Hulk to still be somewhat viable as a hero when all was said and done. Countless superhero vs. superhero conflicts are built on misunderstanding, and superheroes' strange tendency to punch it out of each other instead of talking it out (probably because comic readers tend not to want to spend $3.99 for a DareDevil vs. Spider-Man comic in which they discuss their differences, realize they were wrong, and move on to a common goal without ever a punch being thrown).

To many readers, the scenario in which Hulk comes back angry to lay siege to the world sets him up as a supervillain, an otherworldly alien conqueror come to destroy Earth. In which case, he would no longer be a viable character as a superhero. It's reminiscent of X-Men's Dark Phoenix Saga; the writer had every intention of bringing Jean Grey back into the X-Men when all was said and done, but as the story droned on, he realized that after everything she had done, there was simply no justifiable way to have her go on happily with her life afterwards as though nothing ever happened.

So they set up this grand misunderstanding so they could fold at the end and say, "See? Hulk wasn't a bad guy. He just didn't have all the information, and went off in a berserk rage like he always does. He's still a hero! Now let's give him one big, heroic finish." If they had been willing to close the story with the Hulk being a villain, WWH could have been significantly better.

Yea well you agree with me then. But not really a villain. Just Hulk being Hulk. Has he ever saved anybody other than his close friends? He was a monster that wanted to be left alone. He would take and take and destroy.

What I didn't like is that they manifactured something else that had nothing to do with what he was supposed to come back for and then forgot about an invasion for an fighting arena concept. And then we spend all this with Amadeus Cho trying to convince him that he is a hero. Wich to me was weak.

I think they could have easily have the invasion as people thought it was going to be, Hulk gets his revenge. Heck kill a few. Fight Thor whatever(remember it was going to be epic, he was going to fight everybody, it was going to be the End of the World-like) but then Rick Jones distract him and they beat Hulk by sucking the gamma energy from him with a machine. But then after that everybody is beaten, killed or injured and we see the owner of the God of Planet Hulk coming to Earth and mad that his planet is a waste land. Maybe it would be a sort of Doomsday devasting being...smart like Darkside. So the Earth is doomed and the only to save themselves is to "re-charge" Banner. He does, we see the return of the less smart "Hulk Smash!" Hulk and he beats the Invading God, saving the Earth. Then he returns as his role as the fugitive-since even though he killed this being, he did destroyed half the Earth. In the mind of the readers he's a hero, the super-heroes sees him as half-savior, half-menace and sort of leave him alone given the heroic act he did and the people see him as monster still.

Frank

05-21-2008, 11:11 AM

XPac

05-21-2008, 11:13 AM

Has he ever saved anybody other than his close friends?

Hulk has saved entire planets before (earth of course and other ones as well).

Tobias Drake

05-21-2008, 12:48 PM

Jen has gone nuts before and endangered people. Is She-Hulk a monster? I would argue no. Being a gamma radiated person can effect you mentally... heck, that was flat out proven in a court of law. Hulk (and Banner) are both mentally ill. But they're also both not villains. That was the point... and one that frankly shouldn't have come to the suprise of anyone who has botherd reading decades worth of Hulk stories clearly illustrating that point.

Again, just substitute Iron Man/Civil War for Hulk/WWH and you'll be able to understand the downside of making a character go all the way with the villain thing. When you've got a character that has been a hero for decades, and will continue to be a hero for decades to come, one throw away story isn't worth it.

But the point is Hulk's presentation in World War Hulk. Ultimately, either Cho is right and the Hulk is not a monster, or Cho is wrong and the Hulk is a worldbreaking threat. The final issue really built up to the former, that Cho is right and that Hulk is a hero, which is a direct contrast after the Hulk built an arena, forced the Illuminati to fight, and then ordered Reed to kill Tony. All of a sudden, Hulk has a change of heart and we discover that yes, Cho is right, the entire threat of the event is meaningless because he just wanted to teach a lesson. And then it immediately flops to no, Cho is wrong, Hulk IS a worldbreaking threat and has to be neutralized.

This is the ultimate failing at the heart of the story. The Hulk comes back to Earth to smash everything only has real menace if you feel that Hulk, in his "angrier than ever before", has any real malice that he would deliver to the heroes. And they spent four issues building up to this, that yes, he is really going to make them suffer, that he's going to "Never stop making them pay", as he said in his own words on Sakaar. He gave the thumbs down to kill Tony. He used the discs to force Reed to kill Tony. This was the cliffhanger of the fourth issue.

And then the fifth immediately folded on all of it. Cho was saying throughout the whole event that Hulk wasn't a monster but everything that happened until issue 5 was building him up to be. If the final reveal is going to be that Cho is wrong and Hulk is a worldbreaking menace, and even Cho is faced with the truth that the Hulk is not his hero and must be stopped, then why undermine the entire event with Hulk's spontaneous change of heart? Issue 5 tried to present Cho as both right AND wrong. First he was right, and the Hulk took back everything that gave the event power, and then he was wrong and the Hulk became a threat anyway. What was the point?

Drdmx

05-21-2008, 02:01 PM

Cho wasn't privy to the entire battle, nor anything that had set the Hulk off at the end. Even if you wanted to seriously base Hulk being a monster on what Cho had seen of Hulk at the end of the series, he wasn't aware that even then Hulk allowed himself to be stopped.

A monster doesnt do that.

XPac

05-21-2008, 05:16 PM

But the point is Hulk's presentation in World War Hulk. Ultimately, either Cho is right and the Hulk is not a monster, or Cho is wrong and the Hulk is a worldbreaking threat. The final issue really built up to the former, that Cho is right and that Hulk is a hero, which is a direct contrast after the Hulk built an arena, forced the Illuminati to fight, and then ordered Reed to kill Tony. All of a sudden, Hulk has a change of heart and we discover that yes, Cho is right, the entire threat of the event is meaningless because he just wanted to teach a lesson. And then it immediately flops to no, Cho is wrong, Hulk IS a worldbreaking threat and has to be neutralized.

This is the ultimate failing at the heart of the story. The Hulk comes back to Earth to smash everything only has real menace if you feel that Hulk, in his "angrier than ever before", has any real malice that he would deliver to the heroes. And they spent four issues building up to this, that yes, he is really going to make them suffer, that he's going to "Never stop making them pay", as he said in his own words on Sakaar. He gave the thumbs down to kill Tony. He used the discs to force Reed to kill Tony. This was the cliffhanger of the fourth issue.

And then the fifth immediately folded on all of it. Cho was saying throughout the whole event that Hulk wasn't a monster but everything that happened until issue 5 was building him up to be. If the final reveal is going to be that Cho is wrong and Hulk is a worldbreaking menace, and even Cho is faced with the truth that the Hulk is not his hero and must be stopped, then why undermine the entire event with Hulk's spontaneous change of heart? Issue 5 tried to present Cho as both right AND wrong. First he was right, and the Hulk took back everything that gave the event power, and then he was wrong and the Hulk became a threat anyway. What was the point?

You didn't need to believe Hulk had actual malice towards the heroes anymore than you needed to believe it with Tony when he was hunting them down. Anyone that knows Hulk knows that he wouldn't have killed them in the gladiator arena thing... the only ones that thought he did are likely the ones that WANTED to believe that of it, ignoring decades worth of evidence to the contrary (and countless statements by Cho throughout his portion of the book).

Monster is a vague term... one can argue he's a montser. Hell, one can argue Tony is too. Both Tony and Hulk did questionable things that arguably justify calling them monsters... but my point and the point of the story is that he is not a villain. He was pushed to the edge, but despite how angry mentally ill he was, he allowed himself to be stopped and never crossed the line with anyone that really didn't deserve it.

Hulk is ultimately a tragic, mentally ill figure that still manages to be a hero when he's got every reason in the world not to be. And as far as WWH pushed Hulk, it never changed that basic premise. And those that WANTED this story to quite frankly just didn't get the character. Just like Iron Man, you can say that he did a lot of things wrong... but there are lines you just don't cross. You seem to understand that notion well enough with Tony... apply that to WWH and maybe you can start to see why Hulk was handled the way he did.