Was Captain America's Death A Noteworthy Event?

[worstblogever]

There's been some discussion as to the full impact of the "Death of the Dream" storyline written by Ed Brubaker in Captain America (vol. 5) #25. and if it was, in fact, a noteworthy event in comics.

Feel free to discuss whether or not this story was, in fact, noteworthy, or easily forgettable in comic book history.

[worstblogever]

As far as the attention it got even from the mainstream media...

PRESS RELEASE FROM COMICCON.COM archive (google "Captain America mainstream")

Mainstream Covers Death of Captain America

Civil War’s deadly aftermath has taken the life of Captain America as Steve Rogers was gunned down by a sniper in the pages of Captain America #25. The shockwave from his death has been felt across America and resulted in a multitude of mainstream coverage.

The story broke in the Daily News and quickly news spread to other outlets such as CNN, FOX News, MSNBC, and USA Today. Variety even ran an obituary-style article saluting the fallen comic hero! And across the country, over 50 radio and television news stations ran stories detailing the passing of the Star-Spangled Avenger.

Captain America will continue to be published despite the very real death of Steve Rogers. In May, Captain America #26 will reveal the aftermath of his death, beginning with the autopsy of his body. This is no hoax - Captain America, Steve Rogers, is dead.

Marvel wishes to thank their retail partners and comic internet press for making this event such a resounding success.

The following is a list of outlets that have picked up the news of Captain America’s death thus far:


o USA Today
o Forbes, NY
o BusinessWeek.com
o Newsday, NY
o Variety
o Chicago Tribune, IL
o Boston Herald, MA
o Houston Chronicle, TX
o San Diego Union Tribune, CA
o San Francisco Chronicle, CA
o FOX News (NY)
o ABC News (NY)
o Access Hollywood
o MSNBC
o WNBC, NY
o WCBS-TV New York, NY
o Contra Costa Times, CA
o San Luis Obispo Tribune, CA
o Monterey County Herald, CA
o Press-Enterprise (subscription), CA
o Monterey County Herald, CA
o Times Picayune, LA
o Kansas City Star, MO
o Seattle Post Intelligencer, WA
o Charlotte Observer, NC
o amNewYork, New York
o Daily Mail-Charleston, WV
o Bloomington Pantagraph, IL
o El Paso Times, TX
o Associated Content, CO (and from Daily News)
o News24, South Africa
o Cherry Hill Courier Post, NJ
o Akron Beacon Journal, OH
o MLive.com, MI
o Penn Live, PA
o PensacolaNewsJournal.com, FL
o Las Cruces Sun-News, NM
o NewsMax.com, FL
o Hawaii Channel.com, HI
o ClickonSA.com, TX
o Hemscott, UK
o New Brunswick Home News Tribune, NJ
o Biloxi Sun Herald, MS
o Columbus Ledger-Enquirer, GA
o Town Hall, DC
o Times Daily (subscription), AL
o Providence Eyewitness News, RI
o Macon Telegraph, GA
o Myrtle Beach Sun News
o Belleville News-Democrat, IL
o Ocala.com, FL
o Akron Beacon Journal, OH
o phillyBurbs.com, PA
o Centre Daily Times, PA
o Gainesville Sun, FL
o Meadow Free Press, ID
o Howell Times and Transcript, UT
o Chandler News-Dispatch, MN
o Akron Farm Report, NE
o Columbus Dispatch, OH
o SouthFlorida.com, FL
o Newswatch 50, NY
o 13WHAM-TV, NY (ABC)
o WSTM-TV, NY (NBC3)
o abc7news.com, CA
o KPLC-TV, LA (NBC7)
o CBS 2, CA (KCAL9)
o CBS 5, CA
o NBC4.TV, CA
o KSBW Channel.com, CA
o KESQ, CA (ABC3)
o KTVU.com, CA
o 10News.com, CA
o MyFox Washington DC, DC
o CBS2 Chicago, IL
o abc13.com, TX
o CBS 11, TX
o WOAI, TX (NBC)
o KAIT, AR (NBC4)
o ABC2 News, MD
o WVVA TV, IL (NBC6)
o KTIV, IA (NBC4)
o Local6.com, FL
o WHBF, IL (CBS 4)
o Today's THV, AR (Channel 11)
o WJZ, MD
o CBS 4, FL
o cbs4denver.com, CO
o WLOS, NC (ABC 13)
o KTTC, MN (NBC)
o WKOW, WI (ABC27)
o WREX-TV, IL (NBC13)
o KCAU, IA (ABC 9)
o KUTV, UT
o CBS 42, TX
o WMTW, ME (ABC 8)
o FoxReno.com, NV
o WXii 12.com, NC
o CTV.ca, Canada
o KFOXtv.com, TX
o WSBtv.com, GA
o NewsNet5.com, OH
o INDYchannel.com, IN
o KIROtv.com, WA
o NBC 10.com, PA
o WJACtv.com, PA
o WSOCtv.com, NC
o KPTV.com, OR
o KCCI.com, IA
o WTOV9.com, OH
o WFtv.com, FL
o Pittsburgh Channel.com, PA
o Click10.com, FL
o Click 2 Houston.com, TX
o News4Jax.com, FL
o WPXI.com, PA
o KETV.com, NE
o NBC6.net, FL
o ABCmoney.co.uk, UK
o CBS 5 - Green Bay, WI
o TheDenverChannel.com, CO
o Fox 28, IN
o KSL-TV, UT (NBC5)
o WTOP, DC
o WLUC-TV, MI (NBC6)
o KTRE, TX (ABC 9)
o Dateline Alabama, AL
o Fox 12 Boise, ID
o WHO-TV, IA
o WHNS (FOX)
o WLNS, MI
o KUTV, UT
o WREG, TN
o KWWL, IA (NBC7)
o KNDO/KNDU, WA (NBC)
o KBSD, KS (CBS)
o WZZM, MI (ABC 13)
o WKBT, WI (ABC8)
o KVOA.com, AZ (NBC4)
o WMC-TV, TN
o KRIS-TV, TX (NBC6)
o WBOC TV 16, MD (FOX21)
o WTVM, GA
o cbs4denver.com, CO
o firstcoastnews.com, Jacksonville,FL (ABC12 + NBC25)
o KFVS, MO (CBS12)
o WJZ, MD (CBS13)
o KTUU, AK (ABC7)
o Team 4 News, TX
o WANE, IN (Channel 15)
o Pioneer Press, MN (NBC10)
o KSBY, CA (NBC6)
o WOI, IA (CBS4)
o KDKA, PA (CBS2)
o CBS 21, PA
o ABC 4, Salt Lake City
o KGET 17, CA (NBC)
o WXXA, Albany NY (FOX23)
o CBS 47, CA
o NBC 4.com, DC , Virginia, Maryland
o Kansas City Star, MO
o Comic Book Movie, UT
o San Francisco Chronicle, CA
o FOX News
o The Casper Star Tribune, WY
o The Times and Democrat, SC
o Fresno Bee (subscription), CA
o AZ Central.com, AZ
o San Luis Obispo Tribune, CA
o Myrtle Beach Sun News, SC
o Monterey County Herald, CA
o Bradenton Herald, FL
o Belleville News-Democrat, IL
o Kentucky.com, KY
o The State, SC
o Columbus Ledger-Enquirer, GA
o Biloxi Sun Herald, MS
o Contra Costa Times, CA


UPDATED

MARVEL TELLS THE PULSE ...
Captain Colbert: Cap’s Death The Subject of Tonight’s Word On the Colbert Report


Marvel has killed Captain America and Stephen Colbert would like to have a word with them. Tonight at 11:30 EST on Comedy Central, Colbert weighs in on the tragedy that has gripped the country when he tells the Colbert Nation just how he’s dealing with the loss of the Star-Spangled Avenger.

Plus, the death of Captain America continues to make waves in the mainstream media with USA Today, NPR, NY Times, and the LA Times all covering the event.


Click the links below to see the coverage:
NPR - http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=7770294
NY Times - http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=7770294
LA Times - http://www.latimes.com/entertainment...ck=1&cset=true
USA Today - http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline...n_america.html


Fulfill your patriotic duty as an American and watch the Colbert Report’s coverage of Captain America’s death, tonight at 11:30 EST on Comedy Central.

[HouseSolo]

As he's just a comic book character in the grand scheme of things, I'd say having a spot about it on CNN makes it noteworthy.

[Teh m0nk3y]

It managed to get commentary in a Norwegian newspaper or two... So yeah.
The article which was in the celebrity spot concentrated mostly on the characters historical past.

[worstblogever]

Internet and comic book community's reaction:

The storyline received critical acclaim for its writer, Ed Brubaker, who was given an Eisner and Harvey award the year it was written. As well, various articles were granted on comic book websites discussing the event, including interviews with Joe Quesada, the editor in chief, the writer, Ed Brubaker, and the creator of the character, Stan Lee.

Threads could be found on CBR not only discussing Steve Rogers' death, but in who was truly behind the attack, and the killer. Some also were created to discuss if there would be another to continue Steve's legacy, and what the final fate of his corpse would be.

[Libaax]

Storywise it was huge and done in a great way. Easily the most impressing way to kill such a big hero that i have read.


News wise it was huge. I saw it on CNN, and many euro news channels.

Not only cause of the symbol he was Captain "America" and cause the way Marvel pr machine worked to make a big event news wise.

Most of everything i think the timing was perfect. Symbolic to see the death of Captain America in todays world where most nations dislike US or even hate them as many countries do.

[worstblogever]

As he's just a comic book character in the grand scheme of things, I'd say having a spot about it on CNN makes it noteworthy.

The only other times I can recall a mention of a comic book character in the mainstream media were:

*the voted on death of Jason Todd
*the death of Superman fighting Doomsday
*the re-introduction of Batwoman as a lesbian


So yeah, this really did seem to capture some attention. Including its being featured on the Colbert Report, too, where Colbert campaigned to be the new Captain America and get the shield.

[HouseSolo]

The only other times I can recall a mention of a comic book character in the mainstream media were:

*the voted on death of Jason Todd
*the death of Superman fighting Doomsday
*the re-introduction of Batwoman as a lesbian


So yeah, this really did seem to capture some attention. Including its being featured on the Colbert Report, too, where Colbert campaigned to be the new Captain America and get the shield.

I'm pretty sure the president actually touched on Superman's death and some point so I think his trumps Caps if only slightly.

[Libaax]

Of course it trumps Cap's not cause Superman comics are great but he is an icon even outside comics like few superheros are like Batman,Spiderman.

[worstblogever]

The Marvel Comics sales Impact:

The issue itself, Captain America (vol. 5) #25 was the #1 seller upon its release in March of 2007, selling over 290,000 issues.

http://www.comichron.com/MonthlyRankings/Diamond2007/DiamondMarch2007/tabid/215/Default.aspx

5 individual stories written as "Fallen Son: The Death of Captain America" dealing with the event, and its impact on several of those closest to Steve Rogers were released. Upon their release, the first chapter featuring Wolverine sold 159,000 units, and was the #1 book for April of 2007. The #3 for that month was the Avengers issue, that sold 140,000.

http://www.comichron.com/MonthlyRankings/Diamond2007/DiamondApril2007/tabid/216/Default.aspx

The May 2007 chapter, featuring Hawkeye considering taking up the legacy of Steve Rogers, sold another 169,000 books to be the #1 offering for that month.

http://www.comichron.com/MonthlyRankings/Diamond2007/DiamondMay2007/tabid/217/Default.aspx

In June 2007, the fourth chapter, featuring Spider-Man was released, and finished #4 in the top ten, with over 133,000 books.

http://www.comichron.com/MonthlyRankings/Diamond2007/DiamondJune2007/tabid/218/Default.aspx

And the final chapter, featuring Iron Man, in July of 2007, was #2, selling 156,000 more issues.

http://www.comichron.com/MonthlyRankings/Diamond2007/DiamondJune2007/tabid/218/Default.aspx

[worstblogever]

Impact upon the Marvel Universe:

In his own comic, the death of Steve Rogers resulted in all of SHIELD being turned on its ear as Captain America's onetime sidekick, James "Bucky" Barnes, aka the Winter Soldier, planned to assassinate Iron Man, believing him responsible. While the Winter Soldier has become the current Captain America at the time of this posting, several other heroes throughout the Marvel Universe considered if they could fill Steve's shoes. Among them were Hawkeye, the Falcon, and Tony Stark.

Steve Rogers was also used as a ruse to lure the New Avengers into a SHIELD facility and "rescue" him, since they thought his death might be faked.

However, several heroes close to Captain America have had words with Iron Man over his actions against Cap prior to his death during Civil War, including Thor, and several New Avengers.

The event was even referenced during World War Hulk a few times, including by Rick Jones, who made the Warbound Hulk pause a moment to reflect when he first heard that news.

The Red Skull has used the death of Captain America as a stepping stone to infiltrate SHIELD with Dr. Faustus, and brainwash several agents to do his bidding. As civil unrest grows, the current Captain America finds he cannot present himself as a symbol to be respected quite like his predecessor and best friend, making Steve's loss still as heavy as ever.

[stelok]

Cap's death was no more noteworthy of an event than Superman's death or Jason Todd's death.

The deaths of most comic book characters were rather easily forgotten when they all came back to life.

[SnakeEater]

As he's just a comic book character in the grand scheme of things, I'd say having a spot about it on CNN makes it noteworthy.

this is just as important as mickey mouses birthday =)

lol george carlin would have a field day with this but ill be honest the newspapers ruined this and peter"s unmasking for me. some things should wait until the day AFTER they happen not the morning during.

OMD was announced the day after it happened, everything else made me want to explode for knowing.

[Hulkamaniac]

To me the true measure is the impact of the individual is after their death.
Supes death was certainly noteworthy, the biggest gun in the DC universe plus his legacy left a huge void and oodles of possibilities (whether or not it was well executed is another story). Jason Todd less so, his impact was more narrow due to his stature in the DC universe (his greatest impact was to Batman more than any other). To me Rogers death is akin to Supes, his position in the MU (especially following the CW) was huge. His death affected the MU pretty much as a whole, and the myriads of possible stories are astounding.
Outside of the comics the "Death of Captain America" got big play in the media. The recognition of how big the character and image of Cap in society was truly expressed, much like when Superman died. No doubt Steve Rogers death was noteworthy, in and out if comics.

[Your Imaginary Pal]

Cap socked Hitler square in the jaw.
He socked him good.
So we're talking about a character that has been around since before the US was officially particiapting in WWII, fighting the good fight.
The Moral leader of the entire comic book universe he resides in. Reveered as one of the greatest combatants, and strategic minds on his planet. So much a patriot and champion of justice, he went up against his own government to make a voice against a law he didn't believe was in the spirit of the constitution. When he realized he was going about it the wrong way he surrendered. On his way to trial/sentencing he is struck down by an assassins bullet, an assassin that was part of a conspiracy set in motion by one of his oldest enemies. Not only struck by a sniper, but then shot, at point blank range in the chest, by the woman he loved.
Though he's a fictional character, he does represent an ideal. In a time where patriotism is at a low in America, recruitment is down in a time of war, a character that embodied the American Spirit is murdered in a far from heroic manner.

Just because Marvel sent out press releases, doesn't mean news outlets had to pay it any mind. Cap was a character with a 65 year history. Not all of it was pretty, but he's a symbol. A symbol that is respected although he's featured in what are considered children's stories.
To sum up, I think Cap's death is far more relevant than Britney or Lindsay going in & out of rehab. But the fact that he'll most likely return, will probably cheapen the impact.

[Jessica Drew]

In the (soon-to-be) ten years I've been married, Captain America's death was the only time my wife approached me with any type of comic-related news.

[Hi-Fi]

It got a page on the most important brazilian newspaper.

[Will.S]

It was certainly a noteworthy event but somehow I was able to avoid all media coverage and it managed to sneak up on me.

[worstblogever]

It got a page on the most important brazilian newspaper.

International media coverage as well, you say? Hmm... :)

[XPac]

It was a well written, reasonably well executed comic event that got a lot of attention.

To a large degree though, the noteworthiness will be determined by how permanent a change his death ends up being. If Steve never comes back (something I doubt), then it'll undoubtedly be a huge milestone. I Steve comes back in a month and a half, then it's impact will likely be lessened despite how well it was written.

Jean Grey/Phoenix's first death is still a milestone in comics... but the fact that it's one of many ressurections doesnt somewhat water down the event. The same might end up being true for Cap.

But regardless, I do consider it an event. Even if he were to come back next week, I'd still say that.

[Optic Rage!]

Of course, even my non comic book reader friends heard about it.

Anyone who thinks its not a big event is deluded.

[Don Quixote]

Was it noteworthy in the Marvel universe? Absolutely, and I think it will become more and moreso as time goes on. Until they inevitably bring him back, of course.

In the real world, well.... It even featured in the news over here in the UK. Not as a lead article, or anything, but still on the main news programmes. That's pretty significant, the only time I can remember seeing comics mentioned on the news. I can only assume it was a much bigger event in America, especially considering the connotations people attached regarding the American psyche.

[gorthon616]

While I think it's noteworthy... I think the reason why we can even ask this question is because of the inconsistency of how Marvel treats the story.

For instance, when Superman died, it was pretty much one take on it. Doomsday came in and killed Superman. Quick, easy. Other writers or character would deal with it differently, but there was a certain cohesion to it. But if you look at "the Death of Captain America" for the perspective of the Marvel Universe compared to how it's portrayed to in Captain America, it feels worlds apart. When people like Luke Cage harp about Cap's death and how Tony "killed" him (or might as well have pulled the trigger), I almost have to laugh because despite the references to it... pretty much no one really cares about his death. Luke has pretty much has zero interest in avenging Captain America's death and is more into martyr-complexed "me against the man" mode, as is most character's treatment of Captain America's death. The only book dealing with the actual death and villains involved in that death is Captain America, which is pretty isolated from the rest of the Marvel Universe. So while his "death" is at the forefront of events in the MU, the story behind it really is tucked away to the sidelines.

So I think it's funny. We all know Cap died, but I think for people who haven't been keeping up with it from the ground level, when they are asked to give details they would just go... "well there was this Civil War thing... and then the Red Skull... or something. I dunno."

[StoneGold]

Let's put it this way, I know people who still probably think Superman is dead.



It was definitely noteworthy. It made people care about a character that until then, had a fairly cult following.

That said, Marvel's been really good lately about getting their stories mainstream coverage. The start of Civil War and Spidey's unmasking both made major headlines.

[HouseSolo]

While I think it's noteworthy... I think the reason why we can even ask this question is because of the inconsistency of how Marvel treats the story.

For instance, when Superman died, it was pretty much one take on it. Doomsday came in and killed Superman. Quick, easy. Other writers or character would deal with it differently, but there was a certain cohesion to it. But if you look at "the Death of Captain America" for the perspective of the Marvel Universe compared to how it's portrayed to in Captain America, it feels worlds apart. When people like Luke Cage harp about Cap's death and how Tony "killed" him (or might as well have pulled the trigger), I almost have to laugh because despite the references to it... pretty much no one really cares about his death. Luke has pretty much has zero interest in avenging Captain America's death and is more into martyr-complexed "me against the man" mode, as is most character's treatment of Captain America's death. The only book dealing with the actual death and villains involved in that death is Captain America, which is pretty isolated from the rest of the Marvel Universe. So while his "death" is at the forefront of events in the MU, the story behind it really is tucked away to the sidelines.

So I think it's funny. We all know Cap died, but I think for people who haven't been keeping up with it from the ground level, when they are asked to give details they would just go... "well there was this Civil War thing... and then the Red Skull... or something. I dunno."

Exactly. His death has been overshadowed by this Secret Invasion rubbish. Perhaps once that ends it'll become more prominent within the MU, but right now all that matters is skrulls. After all, New Avengers 31 hit 5 short months after Captain America 25.

[StoneGold]

Exactly. His death has been overshadowed by this Secret Invasion rubbish. Perhaps once that ends it'll become more prominent within the MU, but right now all that matters is skrulls. After all, New Avengers 31 hit 5 short months after Captain America 25.

You completely and totally misunderstand the death. Even worse, if the death was being handled as a mega-company crossover, I'd be willing to bet you'd be complaining about Death of Captain America rubbish. It's a one-book event. Of course it's not going to get as much play over a year after it happened than a company crossover.

[mattbib]

Of course it was a noteworthy event.

Whether it will be permanent or even historically relevant is besides the point.

[IronStarks]

His death was Very noteworthy, my history teacher even asked the question "which famous symbol/character died this week" As a bonus question on a current events quiz.

I of course got the question right

[Shyft]

within comics yes, outside of comics still slightly yes, although not as big as superman dying.

however i personally didnt enjoy the actual event. Cap getting shot by a relatively minor criminal on the steps of a court and then shot again by his girlfriend just doesnt seem a great way for such an icon to go. Also the fact that it happened right before his trial, a story i would have LOVED to see.

[gorthon616]

You completely and totally misunderstand the death. Even worse, if the death was being handled as a mega-company crossover, I'd be willing to bet you'd be complaining about Death of Captain America rubbish. It's a one-book event. Of course it's not going to get as much play over a year after it happened than a company crossover.

I don't have a problem with with it being a one-book event.... or even it being a mega-company crossover.... but if you understand what they have done with the event you'd see that they tied it to a mega-company crossover.... THAT'S the problem. What did the Fallen Son series have to do with Captain America's death in his book? Nothing, it just served as a means to merge the Civil War storyline and Captain America storylines for a moment. Of course, neither storyline has anything to do with each other. Brubaker has said that his story is basically isolated from the Marvel Universe.... and yet Captain America's death is functionally tied to Civil War which is as embedded into the Marvel Universe as it gets. I don't need it to be a mega-crossover, but there is too much of a disconnect once you step out of Captain America about his death. I mean, sure people can try to blame Tony for it (rightfully or wrongfully), but it's like no one even CARES about the person who pulled the trigger and the underlying why's it happened.

Perhaps there is something planned later on when the issue gets more resolved in Cap's book, but at the moment it's jarring how the Marvel Universe's take on Cap's death really has nothing to do with the story of Cap's death.

But it would be cool if later on Luke is giving Tony crap about how "he killed Steve," and then Tony retorts back "funny about that... just the other day I aided the hunting down of Steve's killers, the Red Skull, brought them to justice, saved the world, and helped Steve's oldest friend walk down a path of redemption... what the f*%* have you done? Oh that's right, nothing. You want to know why I haven't arrested you for being an unregistered super-hero? Because calling up your wife and getting into an argument with her, boundless bravery that requires, does not count as super heroics. Oh, and I liked you better with the tiara."

[Don Quixote]

What did the Fallen Son series have to do with Captain America's death in his book? Nothing, it just served as a means to merge the Civil War storyline and Captain America storylines for a moment. Of course, neither storyline has anything to do with each other. Brubaker has said that his story is basically isolated from the Marvel Universe.... and yet Captain America's death is functionally tied to Civil War which is as embedded into the Marvel Universe as it gets.


I saw Fallen Son as more of an attempt to show how Cap's death affected those who knew him, without disrupting the course of Brubaker's story. You had Wolverine sneaking onto the Carrier to check the body, Clint trying to figure out what to do about his death, and being confronted with what he saw as Stark's guilty conscience, the New Avengers having to accept his death, and then Spidey contemplating what Cap meant to him. And finally, Stark doing what he could to honour his friend.

The emphasis was much more on their reactions to Cap's death, moving from denial to acceptance. Civil War impinged on it, as it would, due to the circumstances the Marvel universe was in, but I would never say Fallen Son was about Civil War or the SHRA.

[gorthon616]

Well I agree to that. When I said merge, I mean along marketing lines. It's a major point in both storylines and both storylines are trying to play off of it... just in different ways, which I find to be jarring.

[Don Quixote]

Well I agree to that. When I said merge, I mean along marketing lines. It's a major point in both storylines and both storylines are trying to play off of it... just in different ways, which I find to be jarring.

I suppose that's true. But I think Brubaker is on record as saying he was always planning to kill Cap, but Civil War just gave him the perfect opportunity and setting.

Civil War had the unmasking of Spider-Man, which was a pretty big event, kicking off the story. But apart from that, there's only Clor and the death of Bill Foster. Neither were really events. Perhaps they wanted another big event to finish with, so brought Cap's death more into the Civil War chronology than Brubaker might have planned.

I find there's something powerful about someone of the standing of Captain America being killed in such a, relatively speaking, prosaic way. Like Mar-Vell dying of cancer. And there's also something very powerful about the hero's nemesis winning, and killing the hero. It adds an element of unpredictability that's usually missing from popular film/literature/entertainment.

[HouseSolo]

within comics yes, outside of comics still slightly yes, although not as big as superman dying.

however i personally didnt enjoy the actual event. Cap getting shot by a relatively minor criminal on the steps of a court and then shot again by his girlfriend just doesnt seem a great way for such an icon to go. Also the fact that it happened right before his trial, a story i would have LOVED to see.

See that's what I loved about it. It showed how fragile he really was, and in turn how heroic. This is a guy who could have been shot like this at any time, but he always put himself on the frontline and did what was right.

A story about his trial would have been great, though.

[gorthon616]

I suppose that's true. But I think Brubaker is on record as saying he was always planning to kill Cap, but Civil War just gave him the perfect opportunity and setting.

See that's exactly what I'm getting too. It's one idea, but Bru had it for his own reasons and Civil War (and subsequent books) play off it for their own reasons and I don't find the perspectives to be that cohesive.

I think to make my point short and simple, Cap treat's Steve's death as it's happening. Whereas the rest of the books treat it like Steve's death is already resolved, when it's not. It's like the guy from Monty' Python yelling "I'm not dead yet!" The storyline isn't resolved yet, the perpetrators haven't been caught yet, but everybody outside of Cap doesn't really care about it.

Not asking for mega-crossover, but if characters are going to harp on Cap's death I'd like for at least maybe once it not devolve into mindless Tony-bashing and if but for a moment vaguely go "oh and Cap's killers still need to be caught."

Civil War had the unmasking of Spider-Man, which was a pretty big event, kicking off the story. But apart from that, there's only Clor and the death of Bill Foster. Neither were really events. Perhaps they wanted another big event to finish with, so brought Cap's death more into the Civil War chronology than Brubaker might have planned.

I find there's something powerful about someone of the standing of Captain America being killed in such a, relatively speaking, prosaic way. Like Mar-Vell dying of cancer. And there's also something very powerful about the hero's nemesis winning, and killing the hero. It adds an element of unpredictability that's usually missing from popular film/literature/entertainment.

I liked the suddenness of the death. I think that also made it a great jump on point for the reader. (I know that was when I jumped on). It was a good moment and a good story. Much better than Civil War.

[jackolover]

I think Ed Brubaker is a clairvoiyant. Ed read the mood of America and wrote a story that encapsulated the loss of a symbol. A symbolic transformation, of sorts, to a world dominated by corporate strings behind the power brokers. Cap mentioned this in the earlier chapters of Ed's run, and he said it again in the CW series, that corporate shells were the power behind the thrown.

When Ed Brubaker killed off Captain America, he was just reflecting what had been killed off in the American perception of representation. The people hoped and wished they were essentially creating their President, but in reality, that was furthest from the truth. When Ed killed off Cap, he merely represented the cold reality of the takeover of the election system. Red Skulls plans just show the ease with which democracy can be so readily sequestered.

So is Caps death noteworthy as an event? Only if everyone realises what it represents. It's good to see someone like Ed Brubaker make a reality to something hiding in the shadows.

[jackolover]

Look, apart from the Ed Brubaker symbolism thing, Mark Millar and the CW Cap were the only good interpretation before Caps death.

Look at the days before CW when the New Avengers were formed. The best thing Cap did in all that time was lift Spiderman out of the water at the Raft, and bring in Quake for the Michael sting in NA #18. Iron Man did all the leadership by facing Michael in NA #17, telling Cap to wait a minute, on another occasion, and Tony was liasing with Maria Hill and SHIELD all while this was going on.

The only time Cap got centre stage otherwise, was when Nick Fury conscripted Cap into the Secret War and left out Iron Man, and thats where we had the first demarkation of authority, even before CW. Nick Fury sided with Cap, and Tony sided with Maria Hill, ('at least some some Avengers know when to help'). Cap and Hill were at logger heads the whole time of her tenier.

So from this standpoint, before CW, Caps death was of very little noteworthy as an event event, because Cap didn't do anything. Tony Stark had already taken over the leadership role of the New Avengers, and Cap was window dressing. If Millar and CW didn't come along, nobody would have noticed Caps passing all that much. But then, CW made Cap stand out, anyway, so Cap #25 was setup as the CW Cap that bought it. Before CW, Cap was all but the invisible man.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Look, apart from the Ed Brubaker symbolism thing, Mark Millar and the CW Cap were the only good interpretation before Caps death.

Look at the days before CW when the New Avengers were formed. The best thing Cap did in all that time was lift Spiderman out of the water at the Raft, and bring in Quake for the Michael sting in NA #18. Iron Man did all the leadership by facing Michael in NA #17, telling Cap to wait a minute, on another occasion, and Tony was liasing with Maria Hill and SHIELD all while this was going on.

The only time Cap got centre stage otherwisw, was when Nick Fury conscipted Cap into the Secret War and left out Iron Man, and thats where we had the first demarkation of authority even before CW. Nick Fury sided with Cap and Tony sided with Maria Hill, ('at some some Avengers know when to help'). Cap and Hill were at logger heads the whole time of her tenier.

So from this standpoint, before CW, Caps death was a very little notworthy event, because Cap didn't do anything. Tony Stark had already taken over the leadership role of the New Avengers, and Cap was window dressing. If Millar and CW didn't come along, nobody would have noticed Caps passing all that much. But then CW made Cap stand out anyway, so Cap #25 was setup as the CW Cap that bought it. Before CW, Cap was all but the invisible man.

In. Your. Opinion.

Because Busiek's Avengers, Bru's Cap, among other things say that most of your response is bs.

[Hulkamaniac]

Look, apart from the Ed Brubaker symbolism thing, Mark Millar and the CW Cap were the only good interpretation before Caps death.

Look at the days before CW when the New Avengers were formed. The best thing Cap did in all that time was lift Spiderman out of the water at the Raft, and bring in Quake for the Michael sting in NA #18. Iron Man did all the leadership by facing Michael in NA #17, telling Cap to wait a minute, on another occasion, and Tony was liasing with Maria Hill and SHIELD all while this was going on.

The only time Cap got centre stage otherwisw, was when Nick Fury conscipted Cap into the Secret War and left out Iron Man, and thats where we had the first demarkation of authority even before CW. Nick Fury sided with Cap and Tony sided with Maria Hill, ('at some some Avengers know when to help'). Cap and Hill were at logger heads the whole time of her tenier.

So from this standpoint, before CW, Caps death was a very little notworthy event, because Cap didn't do anything. Tony Stark had already taken over the leadership role of the New Avengers, and Cap was window dressing. If Millar and CW didn't come along, nobody would have noticed Caps passing all that much. But then CW made Cap stand out anyway, so Cap #25 was setup as the CW Cap that bought it. Before CW, Cap was all but the invisible man.

this statement totally ignores decades of Cap history. Cap was leader of many major events, Avengers, Invaders etc, etc., etc. It goes on and on. Cap reached the level he was many times over. Yes CW put him in a huge spotlight as the leader of the resistance but his stature and place in the MU was already established, otherwise his leading the resistance would not have meant nearly as much. Imagine if D-man led the CW, would we be saying that he was noteworthy?

[Tobias Drake]

I do kind of agree with jackolover here. While Cap had more than enough accomplishments in his past to make him an icon to be remembered for years to come, at the same time, he was beginning to fade into obscurity, thriving mostly on his reputation and not much on deeds presently accomplished. Even in Brubaker's title, he spent most of his time fighting low-grade terrorists and pursuing Bucky which, while an accomplishment in and of itself, releasing a single man from brainwashing doesn't quite rank high on the epic scale. Civil War gave him that spark and that fire again that made him really stand out and be noticed, RIGHT when it was needed; if he'd been killed off before he made his stand in Civil War, or if Civil War never happened, or if, for any reason, he did not experience being leader of the Secret Avengers and resisting the SHRA, his death would have been largely confined to his own title; just another protagonist killed off while doing his own thing.

[gorthon616]

I do kind of agree with jackolover here. While Cap had more than enough accomplishments in his past to make him an icon to be remembered for years to come, at the same time, he was beginning to fade into obscurity, thriving mostly on his reputation and not much on deeds presently accomplished. Even in Brubaker's title, he spent most of his time fighting low-grade terrorists and pursuing Bucky which, while an accomplishment in and of itself, releasing a single man from brainwashing doesn't quite rank high on the epic scale. Civil War gave him that spark and that fire again that made him really stand out and be noticed, RIGHT when it was needed; if he'd been killed off before he made his stand in Civil War, or if Civil War never happened, or if, for any reason, he did not experience being leader of the Secret Avengers and resisting the SHRA, his death would have been largely confined to his own title; just another protagonist killed off while doing his own thing.

To me this is kinda wrong, and gets to the point of why I don't like people in the Marvel Universe going "OMG Captain America died!" because.... like you said, nobody CARED. They act like they care, because they get all "oh woe is society, its the downfall of the American dream" but do any of these people care about what was going on in Cap's life? Do they care about the person who KILLED him? Nope. They only care about Civil War and what this means to them. The funny thing is as tricked out as the "we're all upset that Steve is dead" thing is his death, the story of his death and the meaning of his death, is still largely confined to his own title. While there are those historic and personal reasons for missing Steve, the only reason people talk about it has less to do with Steve and more to do with them losing the Civil War rebel leader icon. Which I find to be disappointing.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

To me this is kinda wrong, and gets to the point of why I don't like people in the Marvel Universe going "OMG Captain America died!" because.... like you said, nobody CARED. They act like they care, because they get all "oh woe is society, its the downfall of the American dream" but do any of these people care about what was going on in Cap's life? Do they care about the person who KILLED him? Nope. They only care about Civil War and what this means to them. The funny thing is as tricked out as the "we're all upset that Steve is dead" thing is his death, the story of his death and the meaning of his death, is still largely confined to his own title. While there are those historic and personal reasons for missing Steve, the only reason people talk about it has less to do with Steve and more to do with them losing the Civil War rebel leader icon. Which I find to be disappointing.

I agree, definitely.

[MrPalen]

For me it was not significant, because at this point I have a 0% belief that this won't be reversed relatively quickly. The death of Steve Rogers and the introduction of a new Captain America could be noteworthy and meaningful, but the fact is I just don't believe Marvel will stick with it.

[Trey]

Very noteworthy. The manner and circumstances of his death? A pretty bad decision to have him shot like a dog in the street. I guess that's how heroes die now a days. Shouldn't Cap's death have been more epic? Also to have Sharon Carter miraculously not get caught after firing 3 or so point blank shots into Rogers, (what happened to the gun) is one of the few criticisms i have of Bru's writing. It. Just. Doesn't. Work. as a scene.

[Mani]

i think i remember the conversation this came out of and i remember thinking that it was a really silly question then and it's a silly question now.

of course it's noteworthy. people who say it isn't are confusing their personal feelings about it. whether you liked it or not, it was noteworthy.

as to it being "forgotten" by the marvel U, if it was still being talked about in every marvel title like it sounds like some people want, you'd be sick of hearing about it and complaining that marvel isn't moving on. every month, characters reflect and mention his death, it's just not the focus any more, nor should it be because the over sataturation would kill us.

some people complain just to complain, i think.

[jackolover]

In. Your. Opinion.

Because Busiek's Avengers, Bru's Cap, among other things say that most of your response is bs.

Okay. I'll go back as far as the Busiek run where Triathalon won the victory in that story, while Cap was a part of I dunno, 3 squads running around in that arc. Then came the reboot where 30 Avengers were running around in a confusion trying to cut the sqaud down to 7 or 8. Next came the Avengers Disasembled, and Cap did nothing there except talk with different people. There was no smackdowns of anykind up to that point. Then comes HoM and Cap is relegated to being some old guy running around. Next comes New Avengers, and here too, Steve and Tony are knocking into each other because it's told as a dual leader story, and Cap ends up just isolating SHIELD and Maria Hill. In his own book, there is the tail chasing saga of the Skull leading Cap around by the nose, but Steve never really gets close to him. Even in Cable/Deadpool, Cap learns to like the easy life on Providence, and we think Steve is missing this artfull existence instead of the leader of the Avengers.

The whole time, do we see anything like the strong leader we saw in Civil War? I thought he was boring in the lead up to CW. Then along comes Millar and separates Cap from Tony, and now we have this phenomenal leader that we all were waiting for, in comics. It was a superb lead up to his death, and as gorthon616 said, without CW, everybody wouldn't have been crying at the loss of an icon. Steve would have been just like the death of Antman and Vision on Avenger Disassembled. Hawkeye had a more courageous death than Cap did in Cap #25, but because Cap went through CW, Steves death was 10 times more important.

[CyberHubbs]

Very noteworthy. The manner and circumstances of his death? A pretty bad decision to have him shot like a dog in the street. I guess that's how heroes die now a days. Shouldn't Cap's death have been more epic? Also to have Sharon Carter miraculously not get caught after firing 3 or so point blank shots into Rogers, (what happened to the gun) is one of the few criticisms i have of Bru's writing. It. Just. Doesn't. Work. as a scene.

If he had died an epic death, it wouldn't have been as tragic. People would have cheered that Cap went out a hero. They would have mourned also, surely, but with fond memories.

In this case, Cap was outright murdered. Red Skull achieved his goal in the most villainous and underhanded way possible. In New Avengers, Spidey and the others sat around dumbfounded. The bad guys won.

[gorthon616]

It was a superb lead up to his death, and as gorthon616 said, without CW, everybody wouldn't have been crying at the loss of an icon. Steve would have been just like the death of Antman and Vision on Avenger Disassembled. Hawkeye had a more courageous death than Cap did in Cap #25, but because Cap went through CW, Steves death was 10 times more important.

I agree, but also disagree. I think there might be a disconnect in the term "noteworthiness." I'm talking about people within the Marvel Universe in the first instance.... I'm only talking about real people as an incidental effect.

I don't think people in the Marvel Universe *wouldn't* be crying out about the loss of their icon if there wasn't Civil War. I just think they decided that it would be more marketable to use his death to perpetuate the Civil War storyline. What I'm saying is Marvel writers/editors have said (I hypothesize):

"whenever we talk about Captain America's death, we will always do in the context of Civil War... despite it's tangential relation to it... rather than the storyline in Captain America, aka the actually story of his death. This (1) gets people interested in the Marvel Universe generically, (2) gives a "moral issue" to whomever says it and the storyline that happens to be in, and (3) may indirectly get people to read the Captain America storyline... we don't need to talk about the storyline, people who know about it are already reading it, and if we can sell it to new readers to just try it, it doesn't matter that if Civil War doesn't have a large part to do with the story."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/books/03/07/captain.america/index.html

Not a single reference to anything within Bru's story about Cap's death. It's a bit circumspect to have a hero killed and the article not even vaguely reference the person who killed him. But we get nothing instead. (Curse you liberal media bias!) :p But the point of that is that people are just picking up the ball that Marvel has handed to them. It's STEVE DIED! Hey look Marvel is interesting (1), Civil War is a great story (2), and by the way read Captain America for details (3).

Civil War didn't make Steve's death "important."

Steve's death made Civil War important. Without Steve's death Marvel would not have those three avenues to explore. It just made it more "marketable," because then you can just go "oh, it's like 911." Because now it's a 911 story that killed of a major Marvel character. It gives it lasting ummph whereas the story would otherwise just be another story that came down the pike. I mean it's not like there have been other stories dealing with the issue.

And, when it comes to major media, I don't necessarily *mind* that that's how they play it. It's a business and (despite me not liking the story) I feel they did want to try to honestly address those issues, so I'm not going to decry them for trying to take credit for that.

But when it comes to the writers handling how the characters are responding to his death, thats what I meant when people (Marvel Characters) only miss him because they lost their rebel leader icon. The people who "lived" with Cap are the ones treating his death this way.

[jackolover]

I agree, but also disagree. I think there might be a disconnect in the term "noteworthiness." I'm talking about people within the Marvel Universe in the first instance.... I'm only talking about real people as an incidental effect.



Civil War didn't make Steve's death "important."

Steve's death made Civil War important.

I think there is 2 components to importance, here. Sure, Civil War made Steves death more poignant, and much higher profile because Steve was the rebel leader who was lost. But, surprisingly, the CW writers had, also, inadvertantly?, built up the living legend to a degree most of us had forgotten about. If it wasn't for CW, the impact of Steve Roogers death would have been minimal. With CW, the focus of Steves Death took on iconic importance, because he lived and he died in that story, the way he wanted too.