Captain America, Dr. Doom and Time Machines

[Quasar's Bands]

Over the last few months, we've seen some confusing things going on, and I genuinely wanted to ask y'all a question.

1) We DID see that Dr. Doom and Skull were meeting about something in an earlier issue, awhile ago, right? And we still haven't learned a thing about what that was about, right?

2) Presuming this is so, I think E.B. has left us a clue. We know that the "Cap" at the end of the most recent issue is not a clone from interviews with E.B. We know that the Steve Rogers that died in Captain America is "really" Steve Rogers, according, again, to E.B. So if we aren't dealing with clones, the only other option I can think of is - Skull has used Dr. Doom's time machine to pluck "a" Steve Rogers from some point in time for some purpose. Wouldn't that be a hoot?

What if the Steve Rogers in the tank is none other than the young Steve Rogers who was picked out of the ocean by the Avengers, but brainwashed? A new - "bad" Cap? What if he's actually the Steve we all know and loved, plucked out of time at the last minute in an alternative time line, brainwashed, and sent back into our current time to do Skull's bidding?

Either way - if this is the case, it would really make a big twist to an already huge storyline - and it would make the Skull's overall plot that much more purely evil.

Just a thought.

[DeadXMan]

Given the supporting cast on red skull's side my money is on commie smasher cap in a regeneration chamber just after he died

[PatchMadripoor]

I think of it more as the explanation for there being a Vision and original Human Torch android at the same time. The Time-iond diamond created a temporal duplicate of the Human torch android remains which were rebuilt into the Vision, Doom's machine could have duplicated the feat. Reconstruct the wounded Steve Roger's body, without his soul, for the Skull to inhabit. Or bring back Steve's corpse from the future, like Booster Gold faked his own death in 52.

[Netley]

Over the last few months, we've seen some confusing things going on, and I genuinely wanted to ask y'all a question.

1) We DID see that Dr. Doom and Skull were meeting about something in an earlier issue, awhile ago, right? And we still haven't learned a thing about what that was about, right?

2) Presuming this is so, I think E.B. has left us a clue. We know that the "Cap" at the end of the most recent issue is not a clone from interviews with E.B. We know that the Steve Rogers that died in Captain America is "really" Steve Rogers, according, again, to E.B. So if we aren't dealing with clones, the only other option I can think of is - Skull has used Dr. Doom's time machine to pluck "a" Steve Rogers from some point in time for some purpose. Wouldn't that be a hoot?

What if the Steve Rogers in the tank is none other than the young Steve Rogers who was picked out of the ocean by the Avengers, but brainwashed? A new - "bad" Cap? What if he's actually the Steve we all know and loved, plucked out of time at the last minute in an alternative time line, brainwashed, and sent back into our current time to do Skull's bidding?

Either way - if this is the case, it would really make a big twist to an already huge storyline - and it would make the Skull's overall plot that much more purely evil.

Just a thought.

Wow, man, that is an incredible theory! The time machine is definitely going to come into play somehow, and your idea really ties together some very cool things.

When did Red Skull and Doom meet again? Earlier issue of Cap? (Can't remember)

The only reason I can think of why that wouldn't be the case is that it's a little too similar to the way Captain Marvel came back (which, of course, is a story-still-being-told, so it could end up different). But the plucked-out-of-time thingy has been done recently with Cap Marvel, and soon again (WWII Cap himself) in Invaders/Avengers, so that might not be the road Brubaker takes.

I don't know. The expectation of surprise mixed with theories and "what if?"s is my favorite part of comics. Good thread, bro!

[crimson red]

as rolltide77 guy pointed out earlier, it is most likely the time-displaced cap from earth 616 from the Marvel 1602 mini-series.

At the end of the story, he is sent back to his own time, setting the scene perfectly for his comeback!

just wiki it. It was very intersting that there were a mention of Marvel 1602 hypothesis in captain America wiki entry, just to be deleted a few days after. Wonder if Marvel deleted it...

[Jeff-X]

I doubt it has anything to do with 1601. I'm pretty sure they went and said 1601 isn't in the 616 anymore, sort of like they did with the AoA reality. It doesn't even make sense anyway. Hypothetically if 1601 is going to count as cannon 616 Cap would have had to have been both sent into the past AND returned to the present otherwise he wouldn't have been around to be involved in the Civil War or have been shot, because he would have been missing in the present this whole time.

More likely it's the Commie Smasher Cap like everyone's been saying. Bru mentioned him back when Bucky killed Nomad, not to mention Faustus and Sharon were both big parts of the story he died in.

[Quasar's Bands]

I agree with most folks that it is likely that the Steve Rogers floating in that tank is the Grand Director. He was Faustus' play toy, after all, his name IS Steve Rogers, and he could certainly be the Captain America on the cover of #39. That all makes sense. It would also be an interesting twist, given that his "Bucky" was Nomad, and Winter Soldier killed him - so he might be out for twisted revenge. They've never met, so that could be interesting...


That being said, why the he!! was Doom meeting with Red Skull, EXCEPT for one of two reasons: Get his hands on the time machine OR to have Latvia support his efforts to undermine American diplomatic relations in the coming months...... Hmmmmm.....

[crimson red]

uh wiki says the Grand Director committed suicide after being defeated by Cap and DD. So what's the deal? anyone?

[Quasar's Bands]

He did - but supposedly, so did Sharon - and she's just fine (well, as fine as a pregnant captive who killer her boyfriend can be). Even if he did commit suicide, who's to say that they weren't able to salvage his body and keep it in that tank? If Red Skull can go in one body, who's to say he can't jump into a stronger, better one later? Probably unlikely that they would do this - he already was in a Steve Rogers clone body at one point - remember that? Nonetheless, the Grand Director was not a clone, just the result of legal name changes and plastic surgery - so you never know....

Anyone notice that Faustus was unable to give the news to the Red Skull? I wonder if that fact will become significant later.

[DeadXMan]

uh wiki says the Grand Director committed suicide after being defeated by Cap and DD. So what's the deal? anyone?

think revange of the sith.

Also bear in mind Both Sharon and Faustus Died in that saga as well.

[Ultrawolf]

I doubt it has anything to do with 1601. I'm pretty sure they went and said 1601 isn't in the 616 anymore, sort of like they did with the AoA reality. It doesn't even make sense anyway. Hypothetically if 1601 is going to count as cannon 616 Cap would have had to have been both sent into the past AND returned to the present otherwise he wouldn't have been around to be involved in the Civil War or have been shot, because he would have been missing in the present this whole time.

1602 theory doesn't make sense. I read 1602 and Rojhaz/Cap talks about how fought "the president for life" and was sent back in time with a bullet to the head instead of being killed in the present and turned into a martyr.

How can that happen if Cap was shot and killed in the present?

Also, 1602 Cap's future had a similar registration event BUT it clearly shows heroes like Daredevil and Spidey as OLD when they were captured.

[Jeff-X]

1602 theory doesn't make sense. I read 1602 and Rojhaz/Cap talks about how fought "the president for life" and was sent back in time with a bullet to the head instead of being killed in the present and turned into a martyr.

How can that happen if Cap was shot and killed in the present?

Also, 1602 Cap's future had a similar registration event BUT it clearly shows heroes like Daredevil and Spidey as OLD when they were captured.

Thanks for agreeing with me, and adding more reasons why it doesn't make any sense.

[StoneGold]

More to the point, there's no foreshadowing. Brubaker's set up a ton of different ways Cap can be brought back. I can almost guarantee you, however he gets brought back, it was introduced before #25. There's a clue that has been hanging around since the beginning where it will all tie in full circle. The question is which one is the real thing, and which one is a red herring?

[Quasar's Bands]

I don't know if his meetings with Dr. Doom are the clue that you're talking about, but I do know that it's driving me nuts trying to figure out where Doom fits in all of this.

[Billage]

Yea,the whole machine from Doom has been sitting in the dark for a while.

Zola even mentioned how he perfected the machine compared to what Doom designed it for.

[HankMcCoy]

so where's the cosmic cube now?

[Quasar's Bands]

so where's the cosmic cube now?

Not sure - but that was an imperfect cube. I wonder what happens if you go back in time, and get a perfect cube and bring it to the present day?????

[CaptainCanada]

so where's the cosmic cube now?
It was cracking in Bucky's hand, and seemingly destroyed (while sending him to that army base). If it's still around, only he knows where it is.

[Cthulhudrew]

Doctor Doom's also pretty well known for robotics, which is something the Skull has been lacking ever since the Machinesmith got locked up.

But the time machine angle is probably more likely, come to think of it. Who needs robots when you've got Mr. Clone-Zola?

[Kirk G]

I thought at last report that Dr. Doom's time machine was broken, being able to only travel further backwards in time (West Coast Avengers circa 18-24 "Lost in Time" arc...)

Was it ever fixed?

[Quasar's Bands]

Read the present arc in Mighty Avengers - Iron Man and Sentry and Dr. Doom have been using his time machine.

[Kirk G]

:rolleyes: Read the present arc in Mighty Avengers - Iron Man and Sentry and Dr. Doom have been using his time machine.

I KNOW that... what I want to know is how and when it was repaired. Or is this one of those time paradoxes...
You know, where the machine repairs itself so that it can be used to go back and repair itself?:cool:
Or did Doom give the Skull enough info on the machine to effect a repair on the device that was found in the ruins of a castle, and therefore, it will be usable again whenever needed...

Does that make sense, or did I just reason in a circle?:eek:

[mattx110]

If Marvel were to do 2 years of stories shooting off from Civil War and Cap's death to have Dr. Doom use his time machine to stop the shooter, and have marvel basically reset and show us a different version of the last 2 years... That would be the most badass thing Marvel has ever done.

[Netley]

so where's the cosmic cube now?

That ring that Crusader had in Initiative (and recently painfully lost). Was it made out of a piece of the Cosmic Cube? In the back of my mind I think that's what happened in Kirkman's Marvel Teamup a couple years back ("Freedom Ring," I think).

Anyway, if that's the same ring (and I could totally be wrong), then it's kind of like a mini Cosmic Cube. And as of last issue of A:I we don't know its whereabouts now.

Or is this one of those time paradoxes...
You know, where the machine repairs itself so that it can be used to go back and repair itself?:cool:


Whoa, nice!

[crimson red]

I still don't see how it could be the Grand Director. Yes he might have the name Steve Rogers and some plastic surgery, but he is NOT Steve Rogers. Brubaker would not let some inferior wanna-be take Cap's place. It's just not the same.

[StoneGold]

I still don't see how it could be the Grand Director. Yes he might have the name Steve Rogers and some plastic surgery, but he is NOT Steve Rogers. Brubaker would not let some inferior wanna-be take Cap's place. It's just not the same.

Unless he wants Evil Cap vs. Bucky Cap.

[StoneGold]

That ring that Crusader had in Initiative (and recently painfully lost). Was it made out of a piece of the Cosmic Cube? In the back of my mind I think that's what happened in Kirkman's Marvel Teamup a couple years back ("Freedom Ring," I think).

Anyway, if that's the same ring (and I could totally be wrong), then it's kind of like a mini Cosmic Cube. And as of last issue of A:I we don't know its whereabouts now.



Whoa, nice!

There is no "the Cosmic Cube." It's not a unique device.

[Netley]

There is no "the Cosmic Cube." It's not a unique device.

So it's like a substance, or an element? Like vibranium?

Or did you mean there are a bunch of them?

"Device"? It's mechanical, not magical?

(Too many questions? haha)

[Rolltideguy77]

Fine everyone just shoots holes in my 1602 theory BANG BANG! LOL Either way I am excited about Cap and am probably enjoying this series more than any other Marvel title, it's consistently good. Hats off to the entire team!

[StoneGold]

So it's like a substance, or an element? Like vibranium?

Or did you mean there are a bunch of them?

"Device"? It's mechanical, not magical?

(Too many questions? haha)

The cube itself is not overly special. They are man-made constructs that while difficult to create, can be thrown together by your average super-science group. The key thing are the interdimensional energies that the cubes have been created to house that can reshape reality.

So cubes can be destroyed, new ones can be rebuilt, and in theory, multiple cubes can exist at once, although they don't usually seem to. They are not unique objects.

[Rolltideguy77]

Which is more powerful, cosmic cube or a singular infinity gem?

[Netley]

The cube itself is not overly special. They are man-made constructs that while difficult to create, can be thrown together by your average super-science group. The key thing are the interdimensional energies that the cubes have been created to house that can reshape reality.

So cubes can be destroyed, new ones can be rebuilt, and in theory, multiple cubes can exist at once, although they don't usually seem to. They are not unique objects.

Wow, so they're man-made. Didn't know that. I always thought it was this single reality-altering ancient object, similar to an Infinity Gem or something. I guess for some reason I thought it was "cosmic" :)

Hmm...could someone take one Cosmic Cube and use it to duplicate itself, and then again, exponentially making more and more. What would happen if the world became overflooded with Cosmic Cubes, and everyone was constantly using them. Would reality turn into some kind of continuously-shifting state?

Is this totally off-topic now?

Oh what about this one: could a Cosmic Cube be used to eliminate its own existence?

[Green Wizard]

I'm Sorry, what issue of Cap was it that these two met in???

[Kirk G]

[qoute]Oh what about this one: could a Cosmic Cube be used to eliminate its own existence?[/quote]

In theory, yes. The cube arc starts about Tales of Suspense #78-81.
In the original cosmic cube story, cap fought the Red Skull for possession of this AIM-created doomsday weapon, and the demonstration of its power was so powerful that when the skull wished for the two of them (Cap & the Skull) to be split apart, it split the island they were standing upon into rubble until cap release the skull. He was wearing armor and dove into the water after the cube, but drowned.

Later we discover that he had fallen NEAR the cube and was able to wish for an oxygen environment while he stripped off his gold armor and survived... the cube remained on the ocean floor, becoming burried under silt.

Later, In Avengers #40, the Submariner learned of this cube, had it retrived for him, and altered it's form to become a necklass. The wasp severed the cord, and it fell into an earthquake, all the way down to the Mole Man's realm.
With his poor eyesight, he picked it up, and while holding it, assumed that it was nothing more than a powerless child's plaything...a play cube. and threw it over his shoulder. That was the end of it.

So, yes, the Cube was used to end it's existence.

Now, in later years, someone posited that it was an EGG for a Shaper of Worlds, but I reject that thought and the thought that one could be powered up or re-created. It was just too powerful a concept, much like the Silver Surfer was.

But I love what Brubaker did with the concept and how he used it.

[Kirk G]

There is no "the Cosmic Cube." It's not a unique device.

At one point, and for most of Silver Age Marvel, it WAS a unique object.
That was the power of those original stories. It was the ULTIMATE prize.:rolleyes:

[Netley]

Which is more powerful, cosmic cube or a singular infinity gem?

I would say that it depends on what gem. The Infinity Gem most comparative to the Cosmic Cube would be the Reality Gem, I believe. Which one of those two is more powerful? I don't know. (I suppose I might go with the Gem, seeing as Infinity Gauntlet was a "bigger deal" in the MU than any story I know of with the Cosmic Cube...though that was due to all six gems together...so I don't know.)

However, if you compare the Cosmic Cube to the Time Gem, it would be a bit like apples-and-oranges. The Cosmic Cube would warp reality better than the Time Gem, but the Time Gem would manipulate time better than the Cosmic Cube. (And so on for the respective gems. Hmm...Reality, Time, Space, Soul, Mind, Love. Right? Not 100% on the Love one.)

I'm Sorry, what issue of Cap was it that these two met in???

I'd like to know this too please :)

EDIT: the above line refers to when the Red Skull met with Doctor Doom.

[J.Strange]

They meet in issue #23. They talk about some strange device that will allow doom to become to next Baron of Iron. I'm pretty sure they meet in a much earlier issue. I'm thinking issue 15, but that was about the red skulls daughter.

[Iron Maiden]

Now I am confused, I thought it was determined in FF 319-320, where Doom wanted to regain the memories lost due to the time loop created by the Secret Wars, that the Beyonder and the Molecule Man were two halves of an incomplete Cosmic Cube and that they were all Cosmic Entities, like the previously mentioned Shaper of Worlds?

[OMGDRAN]

Man, if they do go the time machine route I almost imagine that some how they snagged a Captain America from either just before he was killed or shortly after he would have been jail.

I mean think about it.

Say Red Skull actually let cap go into the court house, instead of springing the trap. Cap goes to jail like he was supposed to only to a short time later get sprung or captured by the red skull. Skull then uses the time machine to go into the past, THEN spring the trap. Cap has to watch himself die at the hands of the woman he loves. and the red skull now has a time displaced cap at his mercy as well as making time displaced cap watch himself die, his freinds tear themselves apart and what ever else he has in the cards.

I know its rather convulted but I mean i think the Skull is far past just killing steve rogers, he doesn't suffer, he just dies, which I don't think the skull has in mind.