Iron Man: Director of SHIELD #27 *Spoilers*

[Teh m0nk3y]

This was a great issue!

1. Stark and company are in heaps of trouble as political intrigue steps up a notch. S.H.I.E.L.D is in a hectic race against time to prove that the Mandarin is still alive, or face charges of terrorist activities.

2. Mandarin did not only fool Maya Hansen, but me as well. Kudos to all the perceptive readers that managed to catch that during the previews.
So Mandarin has now managed to attain the information he needed to utilize the airborne virus... And he has a facility on ready standby!

3. A certain government official falls off the grid, only to be revealed out in a remote jungle reconnecting with an old friend. Kooning is out for vengeance! I can't wait to see how this turns out. Will he be able to assassinate the Mandarin?

4. Samson's not so subtle jibe at Norman had me smiling. :)

Solid read as always, and I hope we get plenty more like this for years to come.

[rogerio]

Iron Man Director of the S.H.I.E.L.D. is easily one of the best titles on the shelves.
really looking forward to see the MADAME MASQUE arc after Stuart Moore fill-in issues...:)

[SeritoNiN]

I liked this book at it's start, even siffering through the delays of Mr. Dleay himself, Ellis.

I liked it during civil war and initiative. Since about issue 20 or 21, just after world war hulk, this book just hasn't done anything for me, this issue including.

[drwho]

Good issue it was so well written that at first I did suspect Maya was with the Mandarin than I thought no because of the other Tony scenes in the book to be wowed that she was with the mandarin. Good stuff.

[Agent_Torpor]

F****ing hardcore issue. Loved it.

Tony and crew up on terrorism charges thanks to their clean nuke.

Maya completely hoodwinked by Tem.

Kooning off the grid and getting some firepower.

Knaufs' script, razor-sharp as usual, and the fill-in art by Pagulayan was on point (love the splash page of Tony thrown by the blast and the helicarrier in the distance).

Doc Samson giving Norman Osborne the business.

I hate to keep harping on it, but if you're not reading this book (esp. over some asinine grudge over the Tony Stark character), you are completely missing out.

[Monty_Cristo]

wait, so what was the swerve? how was Maya tricked by Temugin? i thought Temugin was dead?

[Agent_Torpor]

wait, so what was the swerve? how was Maya tricked by Temugin? i thought Temugin was dead?

Mental manipulation by ol Tem (Mandarin). Maya thought she was waking up on the Helicarrier with Tony Stark by her side. Stark convinced her to break the defense code on Extremis because he told her that the Mandarin already did and they needed to concoct a cure for the airborne Extremis pathogen as soon as possible. After much pleading and cajoling by supposedly-Stark, she gives in.

Then, she realizes that she's not on the Helicarrier and the Tony Stark she's been talking to is the Mandarin and she's in some dingy Chinese psych ward. All this after she gives Tem the disc with the information.

Coolness. The Mandarin pulled an "Emma Frost" on her ass.

My only complaint about the issue was the craptacular "Secret Invasion" preview in the middle. Ergh.

[Monty_Cristo]

Mental manipulation by ol Tem (Mandarin). Maya thought she was waking up on the Helicarrier with Tony Stark by her side. Stark convinced her to break the defense code on Extremis because he told her that the Mandarin already did and they needed to concoct a cure for the airborne Extremis pathogen as soon as possible. After much pleading and cajoling by supposedly-Stark, she gives in.

Then, she realizes that she's not on the Helicarrier and the Tony Stark she's been talking to is the Mandarin and she's in some dingy Chinese psych ward. All this after she gives Tem the disc with the information.

Coolness. The Mandarin pulled an "Emma Frost" on her ass.

My only complaint about the issue was the craptacular "Secret Invasion" preview in the middle. Ergh.


thanks. i was confused by use of 'Tem.' i thought that was the Mandarin's son.

[MichaelChen]

He's calling himself Tem these days. Might be just an alias, or it might be his real name. Wouldn't surprise me if his son is essentially Temugin Jr.

[jackolover]

Then, she realizes that she's not on the Helicarrier and the Tony Stark she's been talking to is the Mandarin and she's in some dingy Chinese psych ward. All this after she gives Tem the disc with the information.



One of those 'DOH' moments. But what if Maya played the Mandarin with a double bluff, and put a weak link in the Extremis map. But that would be too devious for Maya.

I like the Maria Hill is lumped in with Tony and Dugan, as Terrorists. Where were these allegations when Hill sent those suicide bombers to the moon?

[LungerTony]

GREAT ISSUE.

And yeah, Earl Brooks...I didn't call it in a preview, but as I was reading it, I was thinking ..."this is probably all like an illusion to get her to give up the sequence."
Because I am sure as everyone was reading it, whether they guess it or not...but they were thinking "How does Tem get smart enough to break that code himself, wtf?"

AND.
Koonig! Holy Crap. I thoguht he was your typically douche-Gyrich-politician type of character.
He's a badA! Never saw that coming. Biggest surprise of the month. Easily...damn Koonig is off the chain.

[Magneto Rocks]

This book was never bad, but damn, is it picking up steam. After delivering one of the best Civil War tie-ins of any book, it cooled down for a bit post Civil War, and every review I read was giving it a 7 or so. But since around 18, it's been getting better and better and now it's white hot and getting 9s everywhere I look! Never thought I'd actually regard the Mandarin as a threat, but now I do!

[IronStarks]

Great issue, this book is what made me the Iron Man fan i am today.

And i agree Mandarin went from being a semi-threat, almost funny sometimes. To a scary mofo, with his finger on the Extremis trigger

[Agent_Torpor]

I need it dirty, NICK FURY dirty! Ha ha, love that line.

[TotalWorldDomination]

I take back wishing christos gage was the regular writer of this book. Still love CNG, but the Knaufs have realy outdone themselves, despite strong showings from both Cap and Checkmate, this book wins my "Spy Book of the Week" award. And being I love the spy books, it was also my book of the week.

I can't wait to see where they are going with this, or how Kooning is going to try and save the day (side note: when did I start caring about Jack Kooning?!).

My ONLY complaint was that I thought that guy with the eyepatch was Fury for a second. Got my hopes up...

[Tobias Drake]

I was actually very frustrated with Kooning on this one. He's a vital witness, and just up and disappearing so he could pursue the Mandarin alone is not only a sublimely foolish move, it's excessively irresponsible. He's going off half-cocked to die against an enemy he will never in a thousand years be able to overcome, with no thought to the consequences of his actions. Even trying to make amends, he STILL manages to screw Tony.

[TotalWorldDomination]

I was actually very frustrated with Kooning on this one. He's a vital witness, and just up and disappearing so he could pursue the Mandarin alone is not only a sublimely foolish move, it's excessively irresponsible. He's going off half-cocked to die against an enemy he will never in a thousand years be able to overcome, with no thought to the consequences of his actions. Even trying to make amends, he STILL manages to screw Tony.

Good point. He's the secretary of Defense, going off on some superhero-style solo mission is not what the nation or the world needs him to do. Still, it's nice to see he's not a 1 dimensional foil for stark, that he's got some real character depth, even if he is being an idiot while doing it.

[Trey]

But Kooning has connections that can find Mandarin. There's no time for procedure and diplomatic protocal. Even Iron Man probably can't find Mandarin's facilities in Asia. Plus he sorta "worked" with Tem. If apprehended and repremended he can't make right. He's being a hero. Although I do get what you guys are saying.

Also what are Mandarin's powers at this point?
Is this the first appearence of Kooning?

[StoneGold]

He's a badA! Never saw that coming. Biggest surprise of the month. Easily...damn Koonig is off the chain.

Depending on who is writing, that is Gyrich. He's a douchebag, but there's a definite logic behind his douchebagginess, and he can do the gangsters at the end of Rocketeer as much as anyone. Depending on who is writing, anyway. Assuming they aren't writing him as a racist, mass-murdering a-hole.

[bulbasteve]

I was actually very frustrated with Kooning on this one. He's a vital witness, and just up and disappearing so he could pursue the Mandarin alone is not only a sublimely foolish move, it's excessively irresponsible. He's going off half-cocked to die against an enemy he will never in a thousand years be able to overcome, with no thought to the consequences of his actions. Even trying to make amends, he STILL manages to screw Tony.

Well they said he vanished right after they met with him. Seems more like he ran out when they hit him with the ol' Cap pic. Cause really...that is what Cap would do >>

[Tobias Drake]

But Kooning has connections that can find Mandarin. There's no time for procedure and diplomatic protocal. Even Iron Man probably can't find Mandarin's facilities in Asia. Plus he sorta "worked" with Tem. If apprehended and repremended he can't make right. He's being a hero. Although I do get what you guys are saying.

What possible chance does he have against the Mandarin? What way can Kooning vs. Mandarin end that is not Kooning's awful, gruesome death? He has connections that can find Mandarin, and he should be SHARING those connections with people who actually CAN make a difference. People like Iron Man, who is not only Director of S.H.I.E.L.D., the largest global security agency in the world, but who has fought the Mandarin before and come out on top, who is currently working against the Mandarin, and who would be more than delighted if Kooning just came to him and went, "I know how to find the Mandarin." But he's not. He's going off half-cocked to die alone in failure.

Well they said he vanished right after they met with him. Seems more like he ran out when they hit him with the ol' Cap pic. Cause really...that is what Cap would do >>

I'd like to think Captain America would know better than to assume he, alone, can handle every threat in the universe. Cap knows his limits. He knows how to ask for help.

[Mark_S]

Maybe he simply doesn't trust Tony Stark. He might suspect Stark of being a skrull. Or be a skrull himself or in the employ of the Mandarin.

Mark_S

[Tobias Drake]

Maybe he simply doesn't trust Tony Stark. He might suspect Stark of being a skrull. Or be a skrull himself or in the employ of the Mandarin.

Mark_S

O.o Why would he think Stark is a Skrull when he doesn't even know the Skrulls are invading? This isn't public knowledge.

[Teh m0nk3y]

Maybe he simply doesn't trust Tony Stark. He might suspect Stark of being a skrull. Or be a skrull himself or in the employ of the Mandarin.

Mark_S

Have you read the latest Iron Man: DoS?
Kooning was manipulated by the Mandarin. That's why he feels the need to make amends. The man is planning on taking out the Mandarin. Whether he is doing it in the correct manner is a separate matter. Secondly, the skrulls and the Secret Invasion has not been mentioned or touched by the Knauf's so far.

[SquidSquod]

Yeah, nobody knows Skrull invasions except the NA, Tony Stark, and member of the Illuminatis. Members of the MA will know Skrull Invasion just next month.

[Pyro]

Wow, this title is just totally awesome. I was so shocked at the reveal of the Mandarin manipulating Maya to get the Extremis code. I so did not see that coming. It's been a long time since a comic book shocked me like that. And Pagulyan did a really good job as fill-in aritist. I loved that double page spread at the beginning.

[Mark_S]

O.o Why would he think Stark is a Skrull when he doesn't even know the Skrulls are invading? This isn't public knowledge.

Tony knows that the skrulls are invading and isn't telling anyone because he doesn't know who to trust. What if there are other people in the US government who know the skrulls are invading and aren't telling anyone else because they don't know who they can trust?

That's the problem with secrets, when everyone has them and they are afraid to tell anyone else you have a world full of little rooms with everyone afraid to go outside.

Mark_S

[Teh m0nk3y]

Tony knows that the skrulls are invading and isn't telling anyone because he doesn't know who to trust. What if there are other people in the US government who know the skrulls are invading and aren't telling anyone else because they don't know who they can trust?

That's the problem with secrets, when everyone has them and they are afraid to tell anyone else you have a world full of little rooms with everyone afraid to go outside.

Mark_S

Kooning's motivations are clear as daylight. The Knauf's have not touched on the subject of Secret Invasion. Not a single mention of skrulls at all.
I'm guessing it will be like this until SI starts.

[Agent_Torpor]

Kooning's motivations are clear as daylight. The Knauf's have not touched on the subject of Secret Invasion. Not a single mention of skrulls at all.
I'm guessing it will be like this until SI starts.

I have hope that the Knaufs won't sully their storyline too much with this Secret Invasion nonsense.

[Billage]

always a good read!

this issue was no different,tight dialog and great use of political procedures

one of Marvel's best

[Teh m0nk3y]

I have hope that the Knaufs won't sully their storyline too much with this Secret Invasion nonsense.

I just wish that the Knauf's would be given the same treatment as Brubaker.
Essentially allowing them to write their stories without crossovers messing with their plots. Though I guess that's not going to happen considering how integral Stark is in the current Marvel setting.

[Trey]

What possible chance does he have against the Mandarin? What way can Kooning vs. Mandarin end that is not Kooning's awful, gruesome death? He has connections that can find Mandarin, and he should be SHARING those connections with people who actually CAN make a difference. People like Iron Man, who is not only Director of S.H.I.E.L.D., the largest global security agency in the world, but who has fought the Mandarin before and come out on top, who is currently working against the Mandarin, and who would be more than delighted if Kooning just came to him and went, "I know how to find the Mandarin." But he's not. He's going off half-cocked to die alone in failure.



I'd like to think Captain America would know better than to assume he, alone, can handle every threat in the universe. Cap knows his limits. He knows how to ask for help.

Cap has gone out of bounds on many an occasion, alone.

No one said Kooning would fight Mandarin. Just that he can find him. And maybe disable the Extremis weapon. He's getting his squad together, feels that a covert Specop mission is the best way to stop a terrorist, not crash landing through his roof, which would call for IM. Reading is a skill. And these guys would probably only help Kooning, they have history. He and Iron man are hamstrung by the government. So he had to go at it alone. We'll see how much freedom IM has next issue.

Anyone, up on Mandarin's power's? Does he have the rings?

[Trey]

I just wish that the Knauf's would be given the same treatment as Brubaker.
Essentially allowing them to write their stories without crossovers messing with their plots. Though I guess that's not going to happen considering how integral Stark is in the current Marvel setting.

We'll see. A good writer will use a crossover to enhance the plot. Unless editorial asks for drastic changes. The CW tie in Thunderbolts issues were awesome. AS were the Wolverine CW tie-ins.

If the Knuaff's wanted to use Skrulls, they would do a fine job.
Based on solicits, it looks like the will not tie-in, at least in the first months of the crossover.

[Agent_Torpor]

We'll see. A good writer will use a crossover to enhance the plot. Unless editorial asks for drastic changes. The CW tie in Thunderbolts issues were awesome. AS were the Wolverine CW tie-ins.

If the Knuaff's wanted to use Skrulls, they would do a fine job.
Based on solicits, it looks like the will not tie-in, at least in the first months of the crossover.

You think Guggeinheim's CW Wolverine was awesome?

[MichaelChen]

Cap has gone out of bounds on many an occasion, alone.

No one said Kooning would fight Mandarin. Just that he can find him. And maybe disable the Extremis weapon. He's getting his squad together, feels that a covert Specop mission is the best way to stop a terrorist, not crash landing through his roof, which would call for IM. Reading is a skill. And these guys would probably only help Kooning, they have history. He and Iron man are hamstrung by the government. So he had to go at it alone. We'll see how much freedom IM has next issue.

Anyone, up on Mandarin's power's? Does he have the rings?

The Mandarin's powers are essentially that he is Iron Fist on crack. He can sustain himself for years without food and water by feeding on his own chi, he can chi-amp his durability to Iron Man level and his punching-power to significantly beyond Iron Man level, that sort of thing. Additionally, he wears rings that can do things like control minds, create tornadoes, shoot lightning, all sorts of insanity.

[Trey]

You think Guggeinheim's CW Wolverine was awesome?

Heck yeah! I didn't mind the super healing factor, (if that was your objection) and it was Ramos at his best.

Guggs also had Wolverines internal mono down pat.

[Trey]

The Mandarin's powers are essentially that he is Iron Fist on crack. He can sustain himself for years without food and water by feeding on his own chi, he can chi-amp his durability to Iron Man level and his punching-power to significantly beyond Iron Man level, that sort of thing. Additionally, he wears rings that can do things like control minds, create tornadoes, shoot lightning, all sorts of insanity.

I knew all that, I was wondering if he has the rings? I don't recall seeing him use em here. He's been wearing gloves.

[Teh m0nk3y]

I knew all that, I was wondering if he has the rings? I don't recall seeing him use em here. He's been wearing gloves.

He had the rings grafted to his spine back when he took over the covert mental institution in China.

[jackolover]

The Mandarin's powers are essentially that he is Iron Fist on crack. He can sustain himself for years without food and water by feeding on his own chi, he can chi-amp his durability to Iron Man level and his punching-power to significantly beyond Iron Man level, that sort of thing. Additionally, he wears rings that can do things like control minds, create tornadoes, shoot lightning, all sorts of insanity.

The only concern with Mandarin is his fatalism. Mandarin thinks he'll be dead after this arc, and that's a legitimate reason to dismiss Mandarin as real kind of villian. A villain needs continuity of his ego, and Mandarin has given it up, straight away. Mandarin is dead; he just hasn't laid down yet.

[IronStarks]

Very good issue as always, reminds me why i put this comic on top of my pull list

[Mark_S]

The only concern with Mandarin is his fatalism. Mandarin thinks he'll be dead after this arc, and that's a legitimate reason to dismiss Mandarin as real kind of villian. A villain needs continuity of his ego, and Mandarin has given it up, straight away. Mandarin is dead; he just hasn't laid down yet.

But that also means he has nothing to loose.

Mark_S

[Tobias Drake]

The only concern with Mandarin is his fatalism. Mandarin thinks he'll be dead after this arc, and that's a legitimate reason to dismiss Mandarin as real kind of villian. A villain needs continuity of his ego, and Mandarin has given it up, straight away. Mandarin is dead; he just hasn't laid down yet.

There are few things more dangerous than someone who is willing to die for his cause.

[MichaelChen]

Personally I think his claim of doing this for the world is at least half a lie anyway. The guy is, at heart, a barbarian, a decendant of Ghenghis Khan who still holds onto 800 year old values. He's probably doing this to get into Valhalla or Sto-Vo-kor or whatever name he calls Barbarian-Asswhupper-Heaven. It's all about scoring one last big victory in the name of his philosophy and making the world his funeral pyre as he walks through the gates of Valhalla.

[The Batman]

Tony knows that the skrulls are invading and isn't telling anyone because he doesn't know who to trust. What if there are other people in the US government who know the skrulls are invading and aren't telling anyone else because they don't know who they can trust?

That's the problem with secrets, when everyone has them and they are afraid to tell anyone else you have a world full of little rooms with everyone afraid to go outside.

Mark_S

Gee, maybe the Skrulls know what they're doing after all?

[Magneto Rocks]

Tony knows that the skrulls are invading and isn't telling anyone because he doesn't know who to trust. What if there are other people in the US government who know the skrulls are invading and aren't telling anyone else because they don't know who they can trust?

That's the problem with secrets, when everyone has them and they are afraid to tell anyone else you have a world full of little rooms with everyone afraid to go outside.

Mark_S

Absolutely, you're right. And of course, every hero is guilty of that- just look at the New Avengers. (To be fair, at least Tony is trying to set plans in motion against the Skrulls, the NA have just been wandering around from place to place getting sucked into things).

That's the whole beauty of the Skrulls' plan! The heroes are damned if they talk and damned if they don't.

[Mark_S]

Absolutely, you're right. And of course, every hero is guilty of that- just look at the New Avengers. (To be fair, at least Tony is trying to set plans in motion against the Skrulls, the NA have just been wandering around from place to place getting sucked into things).

That's the whole beauty of the Skrulls' plan! The heroes are damned if they talk and damned if they don't.

Well to be fair to the NA they don't have the unlimitted resources of SHIELD and they've been busy catching villains that SHIELD lets waltz out the front door, and they do think that Tony is a skrull.

Man I am really hoping the skrulls win this one.

Mark_S

[Teh m0nk3y]

Man I am really hoping the skrulls win this one.

Mark_S

:rolleyes:

[Magneto Rocks]

Well to be fair to the NA they don't have the unlimitted resources of SHIELD and they've been busy catching villains that SHIELD lets waltz out the front door, and they do think that Tony is a skrull.

The NA have Doctor Strange. They can tell who's a Skrull and who is not. Rather than, y'know, actually use it in a productive fashion, they choose to mope. Not to mention that between them they have a LOT of contacts etc.

Not to mention that it seems that in your view when the NA catch some escaped criminals, it's phenomenal, when the other side bring crime to it's all time low, it means they're evil.

Man I am really hoping the skrulls win this one.

Mark_S

So I've noticed. It still amuses me that you dismiss heroes as villains and then talk about how the great the aliens who slaughter innocent people and plan to enslave them all and conquer a world they have no right to are. :)

[Mark_S]

The NA have Doctor Strange. They can tell who's a Skrull and who is not. Rather than, y'know, actually use it in a productive fashion, they choose to mope. Not to mention that between them they have a LOT of contacts etc.

Not to mention that it seems that in your view when the NA catch some escaped criminals, it's phenomenal, when the other side bring crime to it's all time low, it means they're evil.



So I've noticed. It still amuses me that you dismiss heroes as villains and then talk about how the great the aliens who slaughter innocent people and plan to enslave them all and conquer a world they have no right to are. :)

Well they lost Doc Strange and it takes a bit to recover from that. I didn't say that it was phenomenal that they caught the supervillains, I just maintain that it is typical that the villains escaped from SHIELD with very little trouble.

At this point I don't think that anyone on the official side of the current MU can point to a skrull and say "yea, I 'm better than you are." Really, you'd have to laugh if Gyrich, Hill or Pym said that. The same methods as the skrulls used were used in cw, the same rational as the skrulls use were used to justify every act. If the Law is supreme then what court is there to say that the skrulls really don't have a legal right to Earth? We don't really know after all. And if they do who can say that they are operating against the law when they try to take the planet? And while I hate to spoil a thread that seems to love Tony and his current book I just don't see much difference between Tony Stark and your average Skrull warlord.

But rather than let this devolve into yet another pro/anti Tony thread I'll step back and refrain from any further comment. Sorry to interupt.

Mark_S

[Tobias Drake]

The NA have Doctor Strange. They can tell who's a Skrull and who is not. Rather than, y'know, actually use it in a productive fashion, they choose to mope. Not to mention that between them they have a LOT of contacts etc.

Eh, in all fairness, they don't have Doctor Strange anymore. And even he admitted his magics couldn't identify the Skrulls in the Illuminati conclusion. And he, himself, might be a Skrull.

Really...Strange isn't that great in terms of finding Skrulls. Or...much of anything recently. The guy's really been off his game for quite some time now. I still say Skrull.

[Iron_Stark]

And while I hate to spoil a thread that seems to love Tony and his current book I just don't see much difference between Tony Stark and your average Skrull warlord.

Please tell us the Stark/Skrull warlord similarities. I guess Stark wants to kill innocents to let "his kind" rule. You're just an angry, bitter Stark hater that doesn't even buy his books, yet want to highjack threads about a comic you know nothing about because you admit you do not buy his books.


But rather than let this devolve into yet another pro/anti Tony thread I'll step back and refrain from any further comment. Sorry to interupt.Mark_S

yes leave.

[Mark_S]

Sorry but the fact that you ask me to explain and leave within the same message makes reasonable conversation impossible.

Mark_S

[Teh m0nk3y]

But rather than let this devolve into yet another pro/anti Tony thread I'll step back and refrain from any further comment. Sorry to interupt.

Mark_S

A little bit to late for that one.

[Mark_S]

Again, my appologies.

Mark_S

[Harding Prime]

I have been quoted time and time again that IM is a tool and douche, but this one of my favorite books, hands down!

[SquidSquod]

IM is a douche, but a tool? That's going against the very nature of him. That's like saying Cap an immoral bastard, Spider-Man a lazy untenacious person, and Wolverine a peacenik.

[jackolover]

There are few things more dangerous than someone who is willing to die for his cause.


But that also means he has nothing to loose.

Mark_S

I hear what you are saying. A desperate man may try anything if cornered, but Mandarin has cornered himself. Nobody came after him and he had to invoke the dead mans handle, because he planned this out so that nobody could stop it (the Extremis virus let loose on the whole planet). He wants some ultruistic ideal, which he got revelation through his time incarcerated. It is a false revelation, and all this storyline is for is to bring Mandarin back to the real world. He is currently mentally unstable, and though he is as whilly as a rat, his thought processors are fatalistic. He will be undone because of something obvious he's not looked into.

[Harold of the Rocks]

I hear what you are saying. A desperate man may try anything if cornered, but Mandarin has cornered himself. Nobody came after him and he had to invoke the dead mans handle, because he planned this out so that nobody could stop it (the Extremis virus let loose on the whole planet). He wants some ultruistic ideal, which he got revelation through his time incarcerated. It is a false revelation, and all this storyline is for is to bring Mandarin back to the real world. He is currently mentally unstable, and though he is as whilly as a rat, his thought processors are fatalistic. He will be undone because of something obvious he's not looked into.Now wait a second... wasn't your original premise that Mandarin was doomed because he had already decided he would die for his cause? And now, he's doomed because he's overlooked something obvious? Which is it? If I misunderstand you, please explain this to me. I personally see Mandarin's 'fatalism' as only conceding that when he unleashes Extremis, he will die "in the great culling". I see this as meaning he will fight to stay alive until he has seen through the release of Extremis. It's not as if he has a terminal condition and is conceding that he will die no matter what. It is only if he succeeds in releasing Extremis that he 'plans' on dying. Otherwise, I see him fighting for survival, because his ultimate goal is to be the bringer of what he sees as the next evolution of mankind. If he can't achieve that here, he will try to find another way to do so... and to see that through, he needs to live.

I don't agree that he's painted himself into a corner. If he succeeds in releasing Extremis, he dies but achieves his goal. But his goal is not to die; if he finds another way to achieve his goal without dying, he'd do that as well. Extremis doesn't afford him that 'luxury'.

I was fooled by the Mandarin, like Maya. The one thing I was thinking when Maya was watching the video of Tem's captured scientist revealing that Tem had mapped the Extremis code was that anyone could put that together, and she was gullible to accept the video alone as 'proof'. In that I was right... what I didn't see was that it wasn't Tony pulling off the deception.

And I agree with many of you that this book is one of Marvel's best, and doesn't get the positive attention it deserves. And great art as usual.

[Harding Prime]

He was a tool in CW!

He did things that he didn't necessarily think where right, but what the people of the US needed to see. He attacked and started the CW to appease others. That is toolish. Since becoming Director of Sheild, his toolishness has dropped.

[Harding Prime]

I was fooled by the Mandarin, like Maya. The one thing I was thinking when Maya was watching the video of Tem's captured scientist revealing that Tem had mapped the Extremis code was that anyone could put that together, and she was gullible to accept the video alone as 'proof'. In that I was right... what I didn't see was that it wasn't Tony pulling off the deception.


And why did we all believe our "hero" was capable of this deception? Because he is a douche. :D

But are the sales not reflecting the greatness of the title?

[SquidSquod]

He was a tool in CW!

He did things that he didn't necessarily think where right, but what the people of the US needed to see. He attacked and started the CW to appease others. That is toolish. Since becoming Director of Sheild, his toolishness has dropped.

According to What If Civil War, Iron Man is not a tool. He wanted to avert a greater danger posed by Order 66... er, Thor Clones army. Marvel's the real tool for not saying what's clearly although in interviews that they've said Iron Man is doing the right thing.

Of course if you want to paint a character as a tool, you want to pick the one with the less fanbase or support. Cap has the legacy, Spider-Man has the popularity, Wolverine has his rabid followers. Iron Man as a mediocre franchise is a big shiny target, until the news of the coming movie out.

[Magneto Rocks]

He was a tool in CW!

He did things that he didn't necessarily think where right, but what the people of the US needed to see. He attacked and started the CW to appease others. That is toolish. Since becoming Director of Sheild, his toolishness has dropped.

Nah, he wasn't a tool then. Maria Hill started the Civil War without him. It was either "watch everyone die" or "take command and keep things under control".

...I will grant you that he has the worst prioritisation skills on Earth as he sends a squad of SHIELD agents to deal with Luke Cage then personally leads another squad after Prodigy at the exact same time. :p

[XPac]

Nah, he wasn't a tool then. Maria Hill started the Civil War without him. It was either "watch everyone die" or "take command and keep things under control".

...I will grant you that he has the worst prioritisation skills on Earth as he sends a squad of SHIELD agents to deal with Luke Cage then personally leads another squad after Prodigy at the exact same time. :p

The "Watch everyone die" scenario I think is somewhat questionable. Stark and Carol are basically deciding right now not to bother going around arresting heroes, and no one is really dying over it.

Really, had Stark adopted this mentality a lot earlier it probably would have saved a lot of unecessary problems.

[Magneto Rocks]

The "Watch everyone die" scenario I think is somewhat questionable. Stark and Carol are basically deciding right now not to bother going around arresting heroes, and no one is really dying over it.

Really, had Stark adopted this mentality a lot earlier it probably would have saved a lot of unecessary problems.

Hardly. Remember, he's in control now. If he wasn't in control, it would be Gyrich or Hill, and they'd be less inclined to let people go. The whole point was that if Tony didn't lead the pro-registration movement, someone far worse would, precisely BECAUSE he'll do things like let them go when he has to. Had he adopted that mentality a lot earlier, he would have been kicked out, Gyrich or Hill would have come in and super humans would be extinct.

[DeadXMan]

According to What If Civil War, Iron Man is not a tool. He wanted to avert a greater danger posed by Order 66... er, Thor Clones army. Marvel's the real tool for not saying what's clearly although in interviews that they've said Iron Man is doing the right thing.

Of course if you want to paint a character as a tool, you want to pick the one with the less fanbase or support. Cap has the legacy, Spider-Man has the popularity, Wolverine has his rabid followers. Iron Man as a mediocre franchise is a big shiny target, until the news of the coming movie out.


ofcousre the other Story stated if Tony said what he felt at the refinery(Steve... I need you) the CW would not continued on the Identities of heroes would be kept by Cap. and would of ushered in a new golden age of heroes.

[Magneto Rocks]

ofcousre the other Story stated if Tony said what he felt at the refinery(Steve... I need you) the CW would not continued on the Identities of heroes would be kept by Cap. and would of ushered in a new golden age of heroes.

On the other hand, you could blame Cap equally for that. After all, this does show us that had Cap simply listened to Tony's assurances, and not betrayed him, then everything would have been golden and wonderful. The extral ine or two of Tony's really just reaffirmed what he had already stated.

[Tobias Drake]

The "Watch everyone die" scenario I think is somewhat questionable. Stark and Carol are basically deciding right now not to bother going around arresting heroes, and no one is really dying over it.

Really, had Stark adopted this mentality a lot earlier it probably would have saved a lot of unecessary problems.

No, it wouldn't. Back then, the American people wanted action and results and they wanted it RIGHT NOW because they were terrified. It was at crisis levels. If Stark had adopted this mentality a lot earlier, then someone else like Gyrich would have been the big guy in charge instead of Stark.

It wasn't going to go away. The reason Stark and Carol even CAN show some slack right now is because the public situation has backed away from out-and-out panic that it was after Stamford, and that is directly the result of Stark and Carol's actions in Civil War and the Initiative.

[Decepticons_Rule]

I'm hoping that one of Iron Man's C-list villains shoots him to cause panic among a crowd, then Iron Man's girlfriend shoots him in the stomach, fatally.


Karma's a beeyatch.

[XPac]

No, it wouldn't. Back then, the American people wanted action and results and they wanted it RIGHT NOW because they were terrified. It was at crisis levels. If Stark had adopted this mentality a lot earlier, then someone else like Gyrich would have been the big guy in charge instead of Stark.

It wasn't going to go away. The reason Stark and Carol even CAN show some slack right now is because the public situation has backed away from out-and-out panic that it was after Stamford, and that is directly the result of Stark and Carol's actions in Civil War and the Initiative.

Sure... the American people at the time were terrified. But it passed. Really, all they needed to do was sit tight and wait or the public's incredibly short memory to kick in. Really, when do you get a better end result by catering to irrational parania? Historically speaking that's when you get the WORST goverment.

They can still have their initiaitve and registration while still deciding to focus their time and energy on actual threats. The only evidence we have that things would go to hell is that What If... which you yourself very recently argued can't be used as evidence since it's just a What If.

The truth is, had Hill not insisted that Cap hunt down heroes we might not have even had a Civil War to begin with. For a lot of heroes, that was the major problem.

[XPac]

On the other hand, you could blame Cap equally for that. After all, this does show us that had Cap simply listened to Tony's assurances, and not betrayed him, then everything would have been golden and wonderful. The extral ine or two of Tony's really just reaffirmed what he had already stated.

And had Tony not betrayed Cap first and simply talked to Cap without attacking or lying to him, then Cap would have listened (as Cap did on the 2 occasions they met when Tony didn't lie to him or attack him). Saying Cap betrayed Tony is a pretty one-sided way to look at that sitiation. What Cap did was basically treat Cap the way Tony treated him.

Course, all that occured in a What If so it really doesn't matter anyways.

[Magneto Rocks]

Sure... the American people at the time were terrified. But it passed. Really, all they needed to do was sit tight and wait or the public's incredibly short memory to kick in. Really, when do you get a better end result by catering to irrational parania? Historically speaking that's when you get the WORST goverment.

Not necessarily true. One could argue if America had "sat tight" after Pearl Harbour, they might have avoided World War II! In any case, sitting tight wasn't an option. The people demanded action, and people like Gyrich and Hill were in positions of power. If Tony had "sat tight", those guys would have taken action.

They can still have their initiaitve and registration while still deciding to focus their time and energy on actual threats.

They've done both. Remember the whole "lowest crime ever" thing?

The only evidence we have that things would go to hell is that What If... which you yourself very recently argued can't be used as evidence since it's just a What If.

That's far from the only evidence. We also have Reed Richards' calculations, as verified by Doctor Doom from the future, Reed Richards of the future and the Thinker. The same calculations, incidentally, which he correctly predicted would lead to a utopia if he implemented them, and we know with 100% certainty he was right in that regard. That's some pretty colossal proof right there.

The truth is, had Hill not insisted that Cap hunt down heroes we might not have even had a Civil War to begin with. For a lot of heroes, that was the major problem.

Perhaps. But had Tony Stark not done what he had, then there may not even be any heroes left. Was Hill rong? Maybe... but two wrongs don't make a right.

And had Tony not betrayed Cap first and simply talked to Cap without attacking or lying to him, then Cap would have listened (as Cap did on the 2 occasions they met when Tony didn't lie to him or attack him). Saying Cap betrayed Tony is a pretty one-sided way to look at that sitiation. What Cap did was basically treat Cap the way Tony treated him.

Hardly. How did Tony "betray" Cap? By taking out the teleporters? If he hadn't done it, Cap would have just teleported away. Tony was trying to ensure the best possible result- a best case scenario of Cap agreeing and a worst case scenario of ending the "civil war" there and then. He then immediately followed it with an honest plea. Cap not only attacked him, he lied to him, tricked him, THEN attacked him. He's supposed to be a symbol, to have a higher meaning, not to shake someone's hand while planning to smash them in the face.

And incidentally, Cap didn't listen on the other 2 occasions. In fact, you'll recall that on one of them, his side proke the terms of the truce and attacked Tony. Out of 3 instances where the two sides met and tried to have a peaceful talk, on two of them was the "truce" broken. On both, it was by Cap's side.

[Harding Prime]

According to What If Civil War, Iron Man is not a tool. He wanted to avert a greater danger posed by Order 66... er, Thor Clones army. Marvel's the real tool for not saying what's clearly although in interviews that they've said Iron Man is doing the right thing.

You can't quote a what if?:confused:

Reading the ACTUAL story, he came off as both a tool and douche, which he kinda already was, but since then has become the most intriguing characters, and second most overexposed, next to Wolverine.

Yeah, they both got movies coming out...interesting...

[Harding Prime]

Nah, he wasn't a tool then. Maria Hill started the Civil War without him. It was either "watch everyone die" or "take command and keep things under control".

...I will grant you that he has the worst prioritisation skills on Earth as he sends a squad of SHIELD agents to deal with Luke Cage then personally leads another squad after Prodigy at the exact same time. :p

So he was Maria Hill's tool, no I get it. Who the F*** is Maria Hill anyways, she nobody, he could have had her taken out of the equation in two seconds and brought Cap back to the table, but no, we don't clean up her mess, we make it messier, and still leave her in some kind of power, execution for treason would have been better. Don't get me wrong, that is a bit extreme, but keeping her in SHIELD after CW is ridiculous, that should have been Tony's first order of business.

[Tobias Drake]

The only evidence we have that things would go to hell is that What If... which you yourself very recently argued can't be used as evidence since it's just a What If.

I'm not arguing the What If. I'm arguing common sense. The act passed. It passed without Stark or Carol or anyone making it pass. The people had spoken and something was GOING to be done about the situation. "Make it not happen" was never an option to begin with. If Stark had sat back and said, "Okay, we don't really need to take action on this," action still would have been taken. It just would have been someone like Gyrich or Hill that was given the authority to bring an end to the crisis situation.

The Civil War couldn't have been avoided by Stark just backing down. Panic levels wouldn't have just calmed down on their own if we waited them out. People wanted results and it wasn't going to end until someone did something, and if that someone hadn't been Stark, it would have been Gyrich.

As I've stated earlier, the only way Civil War could have been avoided, the ONLY WAY, at that point, was if superheroes, together, as a unified front, destroyed everything America stands for, burned Washington to the ground, and instituted a tyrannical dominion over all normals. Which would never have happened.

[Harold of the Rocks]

And why did we all believe our "hero" was capable of this deception? Because he is a douche. :D

But are the sales not reflecting the greatness of the title?Tony's pragmatic. He does things to get results. Sometimes he walks a line even he is not totally comfortable with, because he feels the results are for the greater good and he couldn't live with not trying. Most billionaires probably get there because they are result-oriented. You say douchebag, I say pragmatic. Hell, he might even be a pragmatic douchebag. Guy gets results, often the ones he needs (not wants). He doesn't see the world through rose-colored glasses, and understands that sometimes clinging desperately to an ideal leaves you under the bus, while being pragmatic means living to fight another day (look where clinging to ideals got Cap). I'm not saying he has no ideals or morals he won't hold on to or defend, but he also knows the value of compromise. I think lying to Maya about how close Mandarin is to unleashing armageddon in order to save the world is actually selfless (if he jad done that). He doesn't want to lie to her, he needs to in order to save the world. I would be thankful for someone doing that (were it reality), not chastise him for being a douche for lying to someone. True, he never did have that interaction we are discussing, but he has shown that he does put others' needs above his wants on many occasions. That's in character, and that's why I believed he was capable of lying to Maya.
Hardly. Remember, he's in control now. If he wasn't in control, it would be Gyrich or Hill, and they'd be less inclined to let people go. The whole point was that if Tony didn't lead the pro-registration movement, someone far worse would, precisely BECAUSE he'll do things like let them go when he has to. Had he adopted that mentality a lot earlier, he would have been kicked out, Gyrich or Hill would have come in and super humans would be extinct.Stated beautifully. Again, Stark would rather be one to carry the burden of living with conflicted decisions, rather than allow someone else destroy something he also sees merit in (superheroes being allowed to uh, superhero). There are no easy answers, but at least the superhero community has one of their own in charge of the SHRA.

Sure... the American people at the time were terrified. But it passed. Really, all they needed to do was sit tight and wait or the public's incredibly short memory to kick in. Really, when do you get a better end result by catering to irrational parania? Historically speaking that's when you get the WORST goverment.You do realize you just made Tony Stark's argument for making sure the heroes had an advocate as high as possible in administering the SHRA, right? He knows the SHRA was 'knee-jerk', but it was also going to be the law. Far better to control is from inside than fight it from the outside... then you'd have Gyrich and a Sentinel program... and no superheroes!

[XPac]

Not necessarily true. One could argue if America had "sat tight" after Pearl Harbour, they might have avoided World War II! In any case, sitting tight wasn't an option. The people demanded action, and people like Gyrich and Hill were in positions of power. If Tony had "sat tight", those guys would have taken action.



They've done both. Remember the whole "lowest crime ever" thing?



That's far from the only evidence. We also have Reed Richards' calculations, as verified by Doctor Doom from the future, Reed Richards of the future and the Thinker. The same calculations, incidentally, which he correctly predicted would lead to a utopia if he implemented them, and we know with 100% certainty he was right in that regard. That's some pretty colossal proof right there.



Perhaps. But had Tony Stark not done what he had, then there may not even be any heroes left. Was Hill rong? Maybe... but two wrongs don't make a right.



Hardly. How did Tony "betray" Cap? By taking out the teleporters? If he hadn't done it, Cap would have just teleported away. Tony was trying to ensure the best possible result- a best case scenario of Cap agreeing and a worst case scenario of ending the "civil war" there and then. He then immediately followed it with an honest plea. Cap not only attacked him, he lied to him, tricked him, THEN attacked him. He's supposed to be a symbol, to have a higher meaning, not to shake someone's hand while planning to smash them in the face.

And incidentally, Cap didn't listen on the other 2 occasions. In fact, you'll recall that on one of them, his side proke the terms of the truce and attacked Tony. Out of 3 instances where the two sides met and tried to have a peaceful talk, on two of them was the "truce" broken. On both, it was by Cap's side.

If you want to use WW2 as example, let's look at japanesse internment camps. I think most would agree those were completely unecessary. It was bad government that resulted from catering to the publics ignorant parania.

No one is saying that you should sit tight after you were just attacked... but there's such a thing as an appropriate response. Locking up innocent citizens who aren't actually responsible for what happened may have made a bunh of paranoid citizens feel safer... but that doesn't make it right.

One can argue the SHRA at it's core is a good idea... but it was rushed and thus done badly. In the long term, you're better off NOT rushing legislation regardless of whether the public is demanding action or not. Something like the SHRA needed months and months of talks and studies before they should have come even close to becoming law.

Good government isn't a popularity contest. Things this important can't and shouldn't be rushed. The poor often unlawful execution of the law shows that. Had they done it right, took their time, and sat down with the right people them a Civil War could have been avoided. There was no immediate threat that necessitated rushing any of this... that's not good government regardless of how much the public may complain about it.

As for Cap not listening to Tony... on the 2 other occasions Cap showed up and was willing to speak with him. Caps side did attack him, but Cap himsel was willing to speak when he wasn't in a trap and Tony didn't shoot at any of his people. And I'd argue the fact that Tony lured Cap into a trap in the first place was a betrayal. Cap lied and tricked Tony after Tony already lied and tricked Cap. When Tony doesn't sink to that level, Cap doesn't either. It's true that Cap is a symbol and perhaps shouldn't sink to that level... but that's what happens Millar is writing the character.

[Tobias Drake]

Good government isn't a popularity contest. Things this important can't and shouldn't be rushed. The poor often unlawful execution of the law shows that. Had they done it right, took their time, and sat down with the right people them a Civil War could have been avoided. There was no immediate threat that necessitated rushing any of this... that's not good government regardless of how much the public may complain about it.

Tony tried to bring in the right people so they COULD sit down and figure out how to make it work. They wouldn't even give the matter a second thought. You can't have the discussions and planning with all the players on the field if the players won't even so much as discuss the idea.

[XPac]

You do realize you just made Tony Stark's argument for making sure the heroes had an advocate as high as possible in administering the SHRA, right? He knows the SHRA was 'knee-jerk', but it was also going to be the law. Far better to control is from inside than fight it from the outside... then you'd have Gyrich and a Sentinel program... and no superheroes!

I'm not oppossed to heroes being advocated.

What I was oppossed to was giving as much emphasis on capturing unregistered combatants as they did.

The more practical approach is to do what they MA are basically doing now... focus on dealing with actual threats. They didn't need to create supervillain armies or homicidal clones to chase after actual supervillains, so why sick them on Spider-Man and Captain America? Why place so much more effort, time and energy on a far lesser threat? Is Tony spending even half as much time and energy chasing after the Red Skull now as he was chasing after Captian America during CW?

[XPac]

Tony tried to bring in the right people so they COULD sit down and figure out how to make it work. They wouldn't even give the matter a second thought. You can't have the discussions and planning with all the players on the field if the players won't even so much as discuss the idea.

Obviously Reed agreed with Tony.

Perhaps had Tony bothered discussing it with Cap he might have. Or maybe he wouldn't. Either way, I'd argue that things might not have escalated to the point they did if Tony sat down with Cap prior to CW and discussed the matter ahead of time. It might not have prevented the war... but I do think at least on a personal level things wouldn't have gotten to the point that they did.

[Tobias Drake]

I'm not oppossed to heroes being advocated.

What I was oppossed to was giving as much emphasis on capturing unregistered combatants as they did.

The more practical approach is to do what they MA are basically doing now... focus on dealing with actual threats. They didn't need to create supervillain armies or homicidal clones to chase after actual supervillains, so why sick them on Spider-Man and Captain America? Why place so much more effort, time and energy on a far lesser threat? Is Tony spending even half as much time and energy chasing after the Red Skull now as he was chasing after Captian America during CW?

During CW, Tony's job was, specifically, to apprehend the unregistered combatants. His task force was built for that direct and specific purpose and no other purpose. 100% of his resources were dedicated to that task because that was 100% of the duties given to him under the present arrangement.

Now, he's Director of S.H.I.E.L.D., and chasing after unregistered combatants is maybe 3% of his overall duties. If you're noticing Tony isn't spending all his time chasing them anymore, that's because he suddenly has a lot more authority and a lot more responsibility than he did during Civil War.

[Tobias Drake]

Obviously Reed agreed with Tony.

Perhaps had Tony bothered discussing it with Cap he might have. Or maybe he wouldn't. Either way, I'd argue that things might not have escalated to the point they did if Tony sat down with Cap prior to CW and discussed the matter ahead of time. It might not have prevented the war... but I do think at least on a personal level things wouldn't have gotten to the point that they did.

I could argue that perhaps, not being one of the great minds of the time, it simply didn't occur to Tony that Cap's word would be so powerful. But to suggest such would be a lie, because Tony was very, very familiar with how people perceive Cap. The only thing I can think is that he was going to, but Maria Hill beat him to it.

[Mark_S]

As I've stated earlier, the only way Civil War could have been avoided, the ONLY WAY, at that point, was if superheroes, together, as a unified front, destroyed everything America stands for, burned Washington to the ground, and instituted a tyrannical dominion over all normals. Which would never have happened.

There was another way. All the superheroes could have just moved off of the planet for a while, a month or so would have done it. They could have moved in the the Inhuman's on Attillan and then let the country see how it could do without them. If the country did ok, then fine, they didn't really have to go back or if they did go back they could simply stop being heroes. The trouble was and is that these are when you get down to it pretty noble people. Foolish as well. You can keep kicking them in the teeth and they'll keep begging to step between you and what ever supervillain is around that day. No better example of that exist than the X-men. The sad truth of the matter is that the US in the mu really doesn't deserve any heroes. The US that Sally Floyd trumpeted as her country deserves skrulls. But it won't get them because all the heroes that Tony and company did their best to stomp into the dust will rise up and fight the skrulls for them in what will probably be the best example of heroism/foolishness that the comic book world has ever seen.

Mark_S

[Mark_S]

During CW, Tony's job was, specifically, to apprehend the unregistered combatants. His task force was built for that direct and specific purpose and no other purpose. 100% of his resources were dedicated to that task because that was 100% of the duties given to him under the present arrangement.

Now, he's Director of S.H.I.E.L.D., and chasing after unregistered combatants is maybe 3% of his overall duties. If you're noticing Tony isn't spending all his time chasing them anymore, that's because he suddenly has a lot more authority and a lot more responsibility than he did during Civil War.

He also won. Being generous in victory is a very easy thing to be.

Mark_S

[XPac]

During CW, Tony's job was, specifically, to apprehend the unregistered combatants. His task force was built for that direct and specific purpose and no other purpose. 100% of his resources were dedicated to that task because that was 100% of the duties given to him under the present arrangement.

Now, he's Director of S.H.I.E.L.D., and chasing after unregistered combatants is maybe 3% of his overall duties. If you're noticing Tony isn't spending all his time chasing them anymore, that's because he suddenly has a lot more authority and a lot more responsibility than he did during Civil War.

Super villains can qualify as unregistered combatants too. I doubt anyone would really mind it if Tony focused on them first. Again, it's just common sense. Focus on the REAL threats. To me, it shows a lack of priorities.

What he's doing NOW by blowing off the registration to deal with actual villains that are actually problems is frankly the atttiude that would have been nice to see during CW. Had he done that, the huge personal scar across the hero community wouldn't be quite as deep or as painful. The public got over their issues a lot quicker than the hero community did.

[Tobias Drake]

There was another way. All the superheroes could have just moved off of the planet for a while, a month or so would have done it. They could have moved in the the Inhuman's on Attillan and then let the country see how it could do without them. If the country did ok, then fine, they didn't really have to go back or if they did go back they could simply stop being heroes. The trouble was and is that these are when you get down to it pretty noble people. Foolish as well. You can keep kicking them in the teeth and they'll keep begging to step between you and what ever supervillain is around that day. No better example of that exist than the X-men. The sad truth of the matter is that the US in the mu really doesn't deserve any heroes. The US that Sally Floyd trumpeted as her country deserves skrulls. But it won't get them because all the heroes that Tony and company did their best to stomp into the dust will rise up and fight the skrulls for them in what will probably be the best example of heroism/foolishness that the comic book world has ever seen.

Mark_S

What would that prove? If anything, it would confirm fears that the country was too dependent on freelance metahumans and provoke Sentinel initiatives, widespread super-soldier programs, anything and everything to replace the vigilantes. This way, the vigilantes can at least be incorporated into the system, instead of being the absolute enemy of the system.

[Tobias Drake]

Super villains can qualify as unregistered combatants too. I doubt anyone would really mind it if Tony focused on them first. Again, it's just common sense. Focus on the REAL threats. To me, it shows a lack of priorities.

What he's doing NOW by blowing off the registration to deal with actual villains that are actually problems is frankly the atttiude that would have been nice to see during CW. Had he done that, the huge personal scar across the hero community wouldn't be quite as deep or as painful. The public got over their issues a lot quicker than the hero community did.

Supervillains seemed to be lying low during the Civil War. Whereas superheroes were still out and about operating without a care for the law. If Shocker's just kicking back in his home not violating any laws, and DareDevil is still endangering people's lives and contributing to the bad situation, yeah, he's going to hit DareDevil before he hits Shocker, because Shocker isn't doing anything.

What actual problems were there during Civil War that he should have blown off pursuing superheroes for? How many times did he actually let a bunch of supervillains go so that he could chase the superheroes instead?

[Mark_S]

There is also the fact that Tony's victory allowed Pym, Gyrich and the nazi to construct their own torture/experimentation/cloning factory at Camp Hammond. For all his foresight there was a lot Tony just didn't think about. Nor did Reed, or Hank, the other two archetects of the current US.

Mark_S

[XPac]

What would that prove? If anything, it would confirm fears that the country was too dependent on freelance metahumans and provoke Sentinel initiatives, widespread super-soldier programs, anything and everything to replace the vigilantes. This way, the vigilantes can at least be incorporated into the system, instead of being the absolute enemy of the system.

It wouldn't prove anything. But it would allow people to get what they deserve. If they public doesn't want heroes and prefers sentinals, I for one would wholely support that. Let them get what they seemingly want and deserve.

[Magneto Rocks]

Yeah, but that's why you're not a hero, isn't it, XPac ;) I think the second they do that, they give up any right to that name.

[Mark_S]

Supervillains seemed to be lying low during the Civil War. Whereas superheroes were still out and about operating without a care for the law. If Shocker's just kicking back in his home not violating any laws, and DareDevil is still endangering people's lives and contributing to the bad situation, yeah, he's going to hit DareDevil before he hits Shocker, because Shocker isn't doing anything.

What actual problems were there during Civil War that he should have blown off pursuing superheroes for? How many times did he actually let a bunch of supervillains go so that he could chase the superheroes instead?

This doesn't got to Tony, but it does bear a bit of thought. During CW Reed invited the Mad Thinker into the Baxture building for lunch to talk about math. And Tony might have kept supervillain crime down by the deal he made with Baron Zemo. Actually I think that a lot of the crime being down stuff that we hear about now is because the public is actualy afraid of Tony and SHIELD troops grabbing people and sending them to 42. Oppressive fear without legal restrictions on those in power is a great way to scare criminals into not comitting crimes, the press into being quiet and the public into being passive.

Mark_S

[XPac]

Supervillains seemed to be lying low during the Civil War. Whereas superheroes were still out and about operating without a care for the law. If Shocker's just kicking back in his home not violating any laws, and DareDevil is still endangering people's lives and contributing to the bad situation, yeah, he's going to hit DareDevil before he hits Shocker, because Shocker isn't doing anything.

What actual problems were there during Civil War that he should have blown off pursuing superheroes for? How many times did he actually let a bunch of supervillains go so that he could chase the superheroes instead?

I disagree. Shocker doesn't have to do anything to warrent going after him... he's been doing stuff for a decade.

Were there any problems that were blown off because of CW? I'm not sure. Marvel has said many times that CW provided opportunities for the villains... but honestly we haven't seen that. Be that as it may, I would still argue the world is better off with Shocker behind bars than Daredevil (who currently is operating freely without anyone at all giving a dam). Putting heroes behind bars only means there are less people out there stopping the actual badguys. And that does no one any favors.

[XPac]

Yeah, but that's why you're not a hero, isn't it, XPac ;) I think the second they do that, they give up any right to that name.

Nope, I'm no hero.

Human Torch can stand there and defend the lives of a bunch of stupid idiots who attack and hospitalize him over something he didn't do. I'm not that good a person.

Just shows us how good these heroes really are, and how off base the paranoia against them really is.

[Mark_S]

This is the darkness that marvel loves.

Mark_S

[Tobias Drake]

There is also the fact that Tony's victory allowed Pym, Gyrich and the nazi to construct their own torture/experimentation/cloning factory at Camp Hammond. For all his foresight there was a lot Tony just didn't think about. Nor did Reed, or Hank, the other two archetects of the current US.

Mark_S

Camp Hammond was Hank's brainchild. Tony trusted him to run it properly; but not enough to run it alone, which is why he put War Machine there, whom Hank has decidedly cut out of things. Hank is a founding Avenger; he's had a bumpy road but there's no reason to believe he'd gone this far. He'll have a lot to answer for when Tony shows up in a few issues' time.

It wouldn't prove anything. But it would allow people to get what they deserve. If they public doesn't want heroes and prefers sentinals, I for one would wholely support that. Let them get what they seemingly want and deserve.

What the public wants is people they can TRUST. Secret police in masks whose identies are known only to their own ranks are NOT, in any way, trustworthy, nor have they ever been. Superheroes were, up until the Initiative, the KGB without anyone they had to answer to. Secret police who handle situations their own way.

When law enforcement in your nation is dependent entirely upon masked, unknown individuals who could be anyone and who answered only to themselves, that is not a trustworthy environment.

I disagree. Shocker doesn't have to do anything to warrent going after him... he's been doing stuff for a decade.

Were there any problems that were blown off because of CW? I'm not sure. Marvel has said many times that CW provided opportunities for the villains... but honestly we haven't seen that. Be that as it may, I would still argue the world is better off with Shocker behind bars than Daredevil (who currently is operating freely without anyone at all giving a dam). Putting heroes behind bars only means there are less people out there stopping the actual badguys. And that does no one any favors.

Granted, but both are lawbreakers. Let's do a scenario here. On the one hand, there was a murder three weeks ago. The killer is still at large somewhere in the Oklahoma area. On the other hand, a man is robbing a grocery store right this very second two blocks away from you. Which is the higher priority? Which do you address right now and which do you address after the other one is dealt with?

[XPac]

This is the darkness that marvel loves.

Mark_S

At this point though, it's really only isolated to a few key books.

A good percentage of the MU is largely ignoring the SHRA stuff and has returned to their status quo.

The Young Avengers and Daredevil for example both seemingly operate unregistered without any problems. Spidey has to deal with a few SHIELD agents or registered B listers from time to time... but that aside I'd argue he's back at his pre-marriage status quo.

It's all still there below the surface... but largely I think the MU has moved past the shadow of Civil War. It really didn't end up amounting to as much as perhaps many of us first thought.

[XPac]

What the public wants is people they can TRUST. Secret police in masks whose identies are known only to their own ranks are NOT, in any way, trustworthy, nor have they ever been. Superheroes were, up until the Initiative, the KGB without anyone they had to answer to. Secret police who handle situations their own way.

When law enforcement in your nation is dependent entirely upon masked, unknown individuals who could be anyone and who answered only to themselves, that is not a trustworthy environment.

Granted, but both are lawbreakers. Let's do a scenario here. On the one hand, there was a murder three weeks ago. The killer is still at large somewhere in the Oklahoma area. On the other hand, a man is robbing a grocery store right this very second two blocks away from you. Which is the higher priority? Which do you address right now and which do you address after the other one is dealt with?

Johnney Storm was unmasked since he was a teenager. They know exactly who he is and where he lives. And he's very publically saved the world quite a few times. If he can't gain the publics trust enough to the point where they won't try to hospitalize him when something beyond his control goes wrong, then it's a lost cause and the SHRA is a big waste of time.

Even now, with the heroes registered it basically means nothing. Thing is still not behing held accountably for plowing through buildings battling supervillains. Masked vigilatnes like Daredevil are still swinging around doing their thing without anyone whatsoever caring. To a large degree, registering them all was pointless. Hell, SHIELD had most of the identities long before CW anyways.

And speaking of Daredevil ... I'd go after Shocker everytime because I know Daredevil isn't really a problem. Again, he's freely operating now and no one gives a dam. Nor should they. Him being free does everyone (except the criminals) a favor in the long run. Daredevils crime is that he refused to sign a piece of paper... he's not a priority in the slightest.

[Mark_S]

It's all still there below the surface... but largely I think the MU has moved past the shadow of Civil War. It really didn't end up amounting to as much as perhaps many of us first thought.

I think that the writers at marvel would like to move past cw, it is readers like myself that won't let them, at least not on these boards. And while I've already appologized for sparking this side track I won't appologize for feeling that the skrulls would be an improvement over Tony Stark. That is just my opinion. I am also of the opinion that marvel was completely unprepared for the amount of hate that cw generated amongst the fans and that they'd like to ignore it completely right about now and have wanted to ignore it ever since they realized how bad it was.
With SI coming out and the Iron Man movie coming out I think that ignoring the shra will be more and more common in the marvel books. CW was the old toy, SI is the shiny new toy that has their attention. A lot of writers didn't want to deal with it at all. They are going to write a few stories-some lame, some not-with some reconcilation and that will be that. Trouble is the anger and out and out despisement of Tony, Carol and Hank and to a lesser extent Reed and many of the other pro-sra side will not fade with SI. It's gonna take a long while yet and until then marvel is stuck with it.


Mark_S

[XPac]

I think that the writers at marvel would like to move past cw, it is readers like myself that won't let them, at least not on these boards. And while I've already appologized for sparking this side track I won't appologize for feeling that the skrulls would be an improvement over Tony Stark. That is just my opinion. I am also of the opinion that marvel was completely unprepared for the amount of hate that cw generated amongst the fans and that they'd like to ignore it completely right about now and have wanted to ignore it ever since they realized how bad it was.
With SI coming out and the Iron Man movie coming out I think that ignoring the shra will be more and more common in the marvel books. CW was the old toy, SI is the shiny new toy that has their attention. A lot of writers didn't want to deal with it at all. They are going to write a few stories-some lame, some not-with some reconcilation and that will be that. Trouble is the anger and out and out despisement of Tony, Carol and Hank and to a lesser extent Reed and many of the other pro-sra side will not fade with SI. It's gonna take a long while yet and until then marvel is stuck with it.


Mark_S

I'm probably in the minority... but I actually think Stark is a more effetive and useful character with everyone hating on the guy. Doom's comment about that in MA was pure gold to me. You can't pay for the type of heat the character generates... it'll be a shame if they "redeem" him and that heat goes away. But they're trying.

Unlike Hank... he seems to be a bigger tool everytime we see him. Doesn't seem like they're trying to redeem him at all.

Carol is a different matter. I think in several instanes she's made efforts to make up for many of the things I think she herself regrets she did in Civil War. Whether fans completely forgive her or not is up in the air... but they're definately trying.

[Harold of the Rocks]

I'm not oppossed to heroes being advocated.

What I was oppossed to was giving as much emphasis on capturing unregistered combatants as they did.

The more practical approach is to do what they MA are basically doing now... focus on dealing with actual threats. They didn't need to create supervillain armies or homicidal clones to chase after actual supervillains, so why sick them on Spider-Man and Captain America? Why place so much more effort, time and energy on a far lesser threat? Is Tony spending even half as much time and energy chasing after the Red Skull now as he was chasing after Captian America during CW?It's already been discussed that the original mandate was to bring in unregistered superhumans. In leading that cause, Tony has to make a good faith effort, or he loses his position from within. You don't think the public would be skeptical at first..."oh sure, Iron Man's gonna really try to force all his buddies to register... right....". Of course they were, and he was under a lot of scrutiny in being trusted to enforce the SHRA. He has to make an effort.

He also won. Being generous in victory is a very easy thing to be.It's even easier to give nothing after a victory. Tony is actually compromising his enforcement of the SHRA because he doesn't agree with the entire premise of the law, either. Remember, he argued against it before the U.S. Senate.
There is also the fact that Tony's victory allowed Pym, Gyrich and the nazi to construct their own torture/experimentation/cloning factory at Camp Hammond. For all his foresight there was a lot Tony just didn't think about. Nor did Reed, or Hank, the other two archetects of the current US.I think what Tony did think about was simple... the SHRA was going to be the law of the land, and after losing the fight to prevent it, he knew he needed to work within it to be more effective at preserving the superhero community. The alternative was to hand the reigns over to Gyrich and eventually be in the torture chamber himself. Blaming him for every outcome, when he made his decision based on the bigger picture is almost as silly as suggesting the heroes all go to the moon for a month.
This doesn't got to Tony, but it does bear a bit of thought. During CW Reed invited the Mad Thinker into the Baxture building for lunch to talk about math. And Tony might have kept supervillain crime down by the deal he made with Baron Zemo. Actually I think that a lot of the crime being down stuff that we hear about now is because the public is actualy afraid of Tony and SHIELD troops grabbing people and sending them to 42. Oppressive fear without legal restrictions on those in power is a great way to scare criminals into not comitting crimes, the press into being quiet and the public into being passive.Considering the SHRA also created hundreds of new 'criminals', and the public supported the law... I disagree that the general public is living in fear. Maybe some criminals, but not average law-abiding Joes and Jills. The attempted analogy of a police state is (in my opinion) a 'significant' stretch.
I disagree. Shocker doesn't have to do anything to warrent going after him... he's been doing stuff for a decade.

Were there any problems that were blown off because of CW? I'm not sure. Marvel has said many times that CW provided opportunities for the villains... but honestly we haven't seen that. Be that as it may, I would still argue the world is better off with Shocker behind bars than Daredevil (who currently is operating freely without anyone at all giving a dam). Putting heroes behind bars only means there are less people out there stopping the actual badguys. And that does no one any favors.Shocker has to be actively committing a crime or be a fugitive to be pursued by the law. No one wants a society where one is locked up on reputation alone. I sure as hell wouldn't feel safer in that society.

Oh wait... this is an Iron Man #27 thread, right? Okay...

What did you guys think about the opening sequence where Yinsen and his son were 'haunting' Tony? More of the same hauntings he has experienced? Or is there some foreshadowing here of something ominous to come for Tony with regards to his past?

I also have to say this series single-handedly made Tim "Dum Dum" Dugan a real interesting character for me, and not just Ben Grimm's and Nick Fury's straight man. Seeing characters like him develop is a testament to the Knaufs' writing as well, in my mind.

[XPac]

Shocker has to be actively committing a crime or be a fugitive to be pursued by the law. No one wants a society where one is locked up on reputation alone. I sure as hell wouldn't feel safer in that society.



I was under the impression that Shocker is a fugitive from the law and didn't complete his prison sentence. If he did and is a free man, then I'll concede that they shouldn't have gone after him. That said, there are dozens and dozens of fugitives who were at large (many from the NA Raft incident alone), so I don't think there was a shortage of criminals to go after.

I wasn't implying that people should be locked up on reputation alone... what I was implying was that there are a lot of fugitive criminals out there who are a far greater threat to the general public than the unregistered combatants. And common sense tells me at least that the bulk of your efforts should be on them. If you feel otherwise, we can agree to disagree.

[Tobias Drake]

I was under the impression that Shocker is a fugitive from the law and didn't complete his prison sentence. If he did and is a free man, then I'll concede that they shouldn't have gone after him. That said, there are dozens and dozens of fugitives who were at large (many from the NA Raft incident alone), so I don't think there was a shortage of criminals to go after.

I wasn't implying that people should be locked up on reputation alone... what I was implying was that there are a lot of fugitive criminals out there who are a far greater threat to the general public than the unregistered combatants. And common sense tells me at least that the bulk of your efforts should be on them. If you feel otherwise, we can agree to disagree.

It depends on who is actively breaking the law at the moment now, and who isn't. Whether you agree with the laws against vigilantism or not (which is not necessarily the SHRA), the fact is that vigilantism IS illegal, not matter how convenient it may be, and after Stamford, the public wanted a crackdown. Vigilantes were being treated as criminals, because vigilantism is a crime. And those criminals who were presently engaged in the act of vigilantism were a higher priority than those criminals who had, at some undisclosed time in the past, committed a crime but, for the moment, weren't doing anything.

Going back the scenario presented earlier, the gas station being robbed is the higher priority because it is happening right this second and can be handled now. Even though the murderer's crime is worse, he isn't doing anything, so he can wait until the criminal who is actively breaking the law right now has been apprehended.

[Mark_S]

It depends on who is actively breaking the law at the moment now, and who isn't. Whether you agree with the laws against vigilantism or not (which is not necessarily the SHRA), the fact is that vigilantism IS illegal, not matter how convenient it may be, and after Stamford, the public wanted a crackdown. Vigilantes were being treated as criminals, because vigilantism is a crime. And those criminals who were presently engaged in the act of vigilantism were a higher priority than those criminals who had, at some undisclosed time in the past, committed a crime but, for the moment, weren't doing anything.

Going back the scenario presented earlier, the gas station being robbed is the higher priority because it is happening right this second and can be handled now. Even though the murderer's crime is worse, he isn't doing anything, so he can wait until the criminal who is actively breaking the law right now has been apprehended.


What about all of those times the public cheered as the vigilantes fought of alien invaders, supervillains and saved people from natural disastors? Why didn't they mind then? If that changed just because of Stamford then they are a fickle lot. And if they are that fickle they really, really deserve to be ruled by skrulls.


Mark_S

[Tobias Drake]

What about all of those times the public cheered as the vigilantes fought of alien invaders, supervillains and saved people from natural disastors? Why didn't they mind then? If that changed just because of Stamford then they are a fickle lot. And if they are that fickle they really, really deserve to be ruled by skrulls.


Mark_S

The public cheering for something doesn't make it legal. Popularity is not the same as legality.

[Mark_S]

The public cheering for something doesn't make it legal. Popularity is not the same as legality.

True. But which would you rather have, an illeagal Spiderman rescuing someone from the Vulture or a legal team of regular cops messing it up? Silly question I know, and no real way to answer it. But after spending years and years showing us how ineffective local, national and even international law enforcement agencies were against supervillains I have to ask. And the FF and the Avengers were not vigilantes, at least the Avengers weren't. Yet it was those two groups, mostly the FF, that were the targets of most of the anger of the public of the mu. It can't be denied that the vigilantes stepped in where law enforcement proved itself unable to for one reason or another. If you are the store owner or the person getting mugged in Hells Kitchen and the cops are afraid even to go near the place wouldn't you want a Daredevil around? Does it make a difference when mutant zombie monsters are roaming around the city eating brains if Spiderman is registered or not? After years and years of being completely ineffective against supervillains the law suddenly decided to get serious: against people who were doing no harm at all and at the same time the law completely ignored the supervillains. It actually gave them all a pass if they were willing to fight the superheroes, which they had been doing all along anyway. Does that seem at all like a sane arangement to you? And as the archetect of the downfall of the superheroes as an independent and selfless force in favor of groups of paid enforcers I think Tony deserves either the credit or the blame. Depending upon wich side you are on. It's not completely fair to Tony Stark, but then as he wasn't very fair to anyone in cw anyway. Or afterwards if you read She-Hulk.

Mark_S

[XPac]

It depends on who is actively breaking the law at the moment now, and who isn't. Whether you agree with the laws against vigilantism or not (which is not necessarily the SHRA), the fact is that vigilantism IS illegal, not matter how convenient it may be, and after Stamford, the public wanted a crackdown. Vigilantes were being treated as criminals, because vigilantism is a crime. And those criminals who were presently engaged in the act of vigilantism were a higher priority than those criminals who had, at some undisclosed time in the past, committed a crime but, for the moment, weren't doing anything.

Going back the scenario presented earlier, the gas station being robbed is the higher priority because it is happening right this second and can be handled now. Even though the murderer's crime is worse, he isn't doing anything, so he can wait until the criminal who is actively breaking the law right now has been apprehended.

Vigilatism itself isn't actually a crime... the actual crime is when they commit a crime while in the process of being a vigilante, or if they ignore due process. By itself,it is not illegal for someone to attempt to stop a crime in process. But that's a much deeper legal issue than we need to get into.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on prioritizing Shocker (or a different fugitivie if Shocker isn't one) over Daredevil. I simply don't agree that it's smarter, or in any way serving the greater good better by doing so.

[bulbasteve]

So he was Maria Hill's tool, no I get it. Who the F*** is Maria Hill anyways, she nobody, he could have had her taken out of the equation in two seconds and brought Cap back to the table, but no, we don't clean up her mess, we make it messier, and still leave her in some kind of power, execution for treason would have been better. Don't get me wrong, that is a bit extreme, but keeping her in SHIELD after CW is ridiculous, that should have been Tony's first order of business.

Hey you don't come in the Iron Man thread and diss our girl Hill! She isn't brought to the table she IS the table! (uuh whatever that means... :p)

One can argue the SHRA at it's core is a good idea... but it was rushed and thus done badly. In the long term, you're better off NOT rushing legislation regardless of whether the public is demanding action or not. Something like the SHRA needed months and months of talks and studies before they should have come even close to becoming law.

Tony Stark doesn't just follow the law he WROTE [parts of] the law. (hey that one actually worked!)

Oh wait... this is an Iron Man #27 thread, right? Okay...

What did you guys think about the opening sequence where Yinsen and his son were 'haunting' Tony? More of the same hauntings he has experienced? Or is there some foreshadowing here of something ominous to come for Tony with regards to his past?

Well the hauntings are supposed to be him giving himself hints. Although you gotta wonder why the whole storm gathering in the east thing wouldn't be obvious to his conscious mind. Also probably a good insight into his mind in thinking that the son was at peace...

[Tobias Drake]

True. But which would you rather have, an illeagal Spiderman rescuing someone from the Vulture or a legal team of regular cops messing it up? Silly question I know, and no real way to answer it.

Given the choice, I would rather have Spider-Man trained to handle situations in which punching the enemy until he surrenders isn't the best strategy (bomb threats, for example, or hostage situations), then given a badge, the authority to make an arrest, and a paycheck to reward him for his selfless efforts. Then everybody wins. If the criminals are the only ones getting things done and the police can't handle these threats, then make the people getting things done the new police. Bam, two birds, one stone.

[XPac]

Given the choice, I would rather have Spider-Man trained to handle situations in which punching the enemy until he surrenders isn't the best strategy (bomb threats, for example, or hostage situations), then given a badge, the authority to make an arrest, and a paycheck to reward him for his selfless efforts. Then everybody wins. If the criminals are the only ones getting things done and the police can't handle these threats, then make the people getting things done the new police. Bam, two birds, one stone.

The heroes only win if they are willing to register. The tax payers may be happy, but they're paying billions for a service that the heroes previously gave for free. So I'm not sure they're really "winning" either.

Overall, there was a HUGE social and financial cost for all of this, but with fairly negligable results. The everyone wins arguement to me is quite flimsey.

[Tobias Drake]

The heroes only win if they are willing to register. The tax payers may be happy, but they're paying billions for a service that the heroes previously gave for free. So I'm not sure they're really "winning" either.

Overall, there was a HUGE social and financial cost for all of this, but with fairly negligable results. The everyone wins arguement to me is quite flimsey.

But there had to be something. Like I said earlier, convenience isn't the same as legality. It may be awfully convenient to have vigilantes on the street breaking and entering whenever they feel like it to enforce their own personal morals over the law, but it's not legal. You could try to write a law that says it's just fine for certain vigilantes to operate without regard to the law while keeping other vigilantes like the Punisher illegal, but that's favoritism based on what's convenient for you and is highly unconstitutional. And just ignoring crime in action, no matter how convenient that crime may be for you, renders the entire concept of law a moot point; what is the purpose of laws if we can pick and choose which ones we want to follow?

What other option is there?

[Mark_S]

But there had to be something. Like I said earlier, convenience isn't the same as legality. It may be awfully convenient to have vigilantes on the street breaking and entering whenever they feel like it to enforce their own personal morals over the law, but it's not legal. You could try to write a law that says it's just fine for certain vigilantes to operate without regard to the law while keeping other vigilantes like the Punisher illegal, but that's favoritism based on what's convenient for you and is highly unconstitutional. And just ignoring crime in action, no matter how convenient that crime may be for you, renders the entire concept of law a moot point; what is the purpose of laws if we can pick and choose which ones we want to follow?

What other option is there?


Few really. But while I agree that having Spiderman deputized isn't a bad idea, the idea of having Spiderman drafted into an agency with zero respect for human rights doesn't thrill me either. It is all well and good to argue the law should be the law, but point to me a time when SHIELD or the various other government agencies in the mu aren't breaking laws. If you want law then fine, but don't tell me that the superheroes aren't allowed to break laws that SHIELD and most of the law enforcement agenices in the mu ignore as a matter of course. They do follow only the laws that are convenient to them, and they suffer no consequences for it.

And I think that X-pac has a point when he mentions the cost. What is the cost of the 50 state initiative, Camp Hammond and the unlimitted funds that SHIELD draws upon? I agree that Peter should have worked more closely with the NYPD, no problem at all there, but Peter's sense of responsibility told him that it was wrong to take money for helping people. Under the shra Peter would be required to take money. Multiply Peter times many other heroes turned mercenaries and you have a huge cost, and that doesn't even cover medical and dental.

Trouble is I believe that as no writer on the staff at marvel knows how the US government really works none of them really understand economics either. It would probably never even occure to them to even write a storyline dealing with the economics of the entire shra storyline. It should have though, Cape Killers aren't cheap I'm sure, and neither is the rest of it. Where is all that money coming from? And how much of it was wasted?


Mark_S

[Tobias Drake]

Few really. But while I agree that having Spiderman deputized isn't a bad idea, the idea of having Spiderman drafted into an agency with zero respect for human rights doesn't thrill me either. It is all well and good to argue the law should be the law, but point to me a time when SHIELD or the various other government agencies in the mu aren't breaking laws. If you want law then fine, but don't tell me that the superheroes aren't allowed to break laws that SHIELD and most of the law enforcement agenices in the mu ignore as a matter of course. They do follow only the laws that are convenient to them, and they suffer no consequences for it.

And I think that X-pac has a point when he mentions the cost. What is the cost of the 50 state initiative, Camp Hammond and the unlimitted funds that SHIELD draws upon? I agree that Peter should have worked more closely with the NYPD, no problem at all there, but Peter's sense of responsibility told him that it was wrong to take money for helping people. Under the shra Peter would be required to take money. Multiply Peter times many other heroes turned mercenaries and you have a huge cost, and that doesn't even cover medical and dental.

Trouble is I believe that as no writer on the staff at marvel knows how the US government really works none of them really understand economics either. It would probably never even occure to them to even write a storyline dealing with the economics of the entire shra storyline. It should have though, Cape Killers aren't cheap I'm sure, and neither is the rest of it. Where is all that money coming from? And how much of it was wasted?


Mark_S

I want to know how much of the bill Stark Industries is footing. Highly successful billionaire Tony Stark is undoubtedly helping to fund his brainchild.

[Harding Prime]

Tony's pragmatic. He does things to get results. Sometimes he walks a line even he is not totally comfortable with, because he feels the results are for the greater good and he couldn't live with not trying. Most billionaires probably get there because they are result-oriented. You say douchebag, I say pragmatic. Hell, he might even be a pragmatic douchebag. Guy gets results, often the ones he needs (not wants). He doesn't see the world through rose-colored glasses, and understands that sometimes clinging desperately to an ideal leaves you under the bus, while being pragmatic means living to fight another day (look where clinging to ideals got Cap). I'm not saying he has no ideals or morals he won't hold on to or defend, but he also knows the value of compromise. I think lying to Maya about how close Mandarin is to unleashing armageddon in order to save the world is actually selfless (if he jad done that). He doesn't want to lie to her, he needs to in order to save the world. I would be thankful for someone doing that (were it reality), not chastise him for being a douche for lying to someone. True, he never did have that interaction we are discussing, but he has shown that he does put others' needs above his wants on many occasions. That's in character, and that's why I believed he was capable of lying to Maya.

This is my main problem with Tony, and has been since the Civil War. He does have ideals and ideas of what is right, and that is all he has, are his own. He is the most closed minded person characterized in the Marvel Universe. He is basically a genius version of George W. He never listens to anyone else's opinion or cares, he knows he is right, and I'm sorry for him and Dr. Reed Richards, but no one is ever right and everyone needs to have an open mind. He thinks that his morals and what he thinks is right is more important then Maya's morals, and she has real ones that she should stand by. Just all of us thinking that it was Tony doing this should make all characters question themselves towards him.

[Magneto Rocks]

THe is basically a genius version of George W.

...I'm sorry, this is extremely difficult for me to picture. At all. You've pretty much eliminated any chance of similarity. :p

[Harding Prime]

Hey you don't come in the Iron Man thread and diss our girl Hill! She isn't brought to the table she IS the table! (uuh whatever that means... :p)


Is that in agreeance to her crapiness or just complete skrulliness?

[Tobias Drake]

This is my main problem with Tony, and has been since the Civil War. He does have ideals and ideas of what is right, and that is all he has, are his own. He is the most closed minded person characterized in the Marvel Universe. He is basically a genius version of George W. He never listens to anyone else's opinion or cares, he knows he is right, and I'm sorry for him and Dr. Reed Richards, but no one is ever right and everyone needs to have an open mind. He thinks that his morals and what he thinks is right is more important then Maya's morals, and she has real ones that she should stand by. Just all of us thinking that it was Tony doing this should make all characters question themselves towards him.

The problem, however, is that, hypothetically speaking, if the Mandarin HAD cracked the sequence and WAS ready to kill the world, saving the world SHOULD take priority over Maya's reservations. I can understand her hesitance to allow Extremis to be weaponized, but in the hypothetical scenario she thought she was in, it had already BEEN weaponized. At that point, combatting the weapon needed to take first priority.

Tony doesn't hold his own personal morals above everyone else; he holds the fate of the world over any one individual.

[Harding Prime]

...I'm sorry, this is extremely difficult for me to picture. At all. You've pretty much eliminated any chance of similarity. :p

And yet you know what I mean, W. is an idiot that doesn't listen to any outside suggestions, only his inner panel. Tony just listens to himself.

A better metaphor of someone in another universe is Lex Luthor.;)

[Will.S]

I have hope that the Knaufs won't sully their storyline too much with this Secret Invasion nonsense.
Boy you really have it out for SI don't you? It barely even started!

:p

Very good issue, I particularly enjoyed the whole telepathic trick Mandarin pulled on Maya. Seeing Tony delegate so well with Maria Hill and Dum Dum Dugan was also pretty cool,. Between this title, Mighty Avengers and Captain America Tony's been displaying his leading abilities to be quite on the level.

Fantastic art by Carlo Pagulayan, Jeffery Huet and Dean White. There wasn't a whole lot of action in this book with Tony being in his Iron Man suit for only 3 pages so it had to be a rough script to draw from.

8/10

[Harding Prime]

The problem, however, is that, hypothetically speaking, if the Mandarin HAD cracked the sequence and WAS ready to kill the world, saving the world SHOULD take priority over Maya's reservations. I can understand her hesitance to allow Extremis to be weaponized, but in the hypothetical scenario she thought she was in, it had already BEEN weaponized. At that point, combatting the weapon needed to take first priority.

Tony doesn't hold his own personal morals above everyone else; he holds the fate of the world over any one individual.

Without any proof, just Tony's convictions of being an arrogant prick, and Maya's strong conviction that no one can break her code of the virus, that should be enough to Tony or anyone, they have no proof that it was being broken and obviously, it wasn't. She had enough belief in Tony that the video evidence was enough to help Tony, and we all thought Tony would deceive her like that, she is obviously on a higher moral plain then Tony.

[Tobias Drake]

Without any proof, just Tony's convictions of being an arrogant prick, and Maya's strong conviction that no one can break her code of the virus, that should be enough to Tony or anyone, they have no proof that it was being broken and obviously, it wasn't. She had enough belief in Tony that the video evidence was enough to help Tony, and we all thought Tony would deceive her like that, she is obviously on a higher moral plain then Tony.

By the very nature of science, "They probably can't reverse-engineer it" should never be the entire plan. Nothing that can be created cannot be recreated.

[Harding Prime]

By the very nature of science, "They probably can't reverse-engineer it" should never be the entire plan. Nothing that can be created cannot be recreated.

But they didn't break it and doing it within a month is highly unlikely. Deception by Tony is something that we all have come accustom to which doesn't say a lot for the man.

[Tobias Drake]

But they didn't break it and doing it within a month is highly unlikely. Deception by Tony is something that we all have come accustom to which doesn't say a lot for the man.

Deception isn't what I've become accustomed to. I had no doubt in my mind that was Tony either, but not because I see him as a deceitful liar; because I see him as a man who values the fate of the world above an uncooperative geneticists personal ticks, and will do anything within his power to prevent the end of life as we know it.

Just because everyone agrees about being fooled, doesn't mean we all see the scene the same way.

[Harding Prime]

Deception isn't what I've become accustomed to. I had no doubt in my mind that was Tony either, but not because I see him as a deceitful liar; because I see him as a man who values the fate of the world above an uncooperative geneticists personal ticks, and will do anything within his power to prevent the end of life as we know it.

Just because everyone agrees about being fooled, doesn't mean we all see the scene the same way.

The way the story was written made me think 75% into the story that maybe it actually is Tony, so kudos to the Knauf's. But once I thought it might be the real Tony, I thought everything he said about his intel and his video was total fabrication and he just wanted to open up extemis to make the "save", but more for his own personal gain.

Your right, we all looked at something and got fooled, but we all saw the scene in different ways.

[jackolover]

Now wait a second... wasn't your original premise that Mandarin was doomed because he had already decided he would die for his cause? And now, he's doomed because he's overlooked something obvious? Which is it? If I misunderstand you, please explain this to me. I personally see Mandarin's 'fatalism' as only conceding that when he unleashes Extremis, he will die "in the great culling". I see this as meaning he will fight to stay alive until he has seen through the release of Extremis. It's not as if he has a terminal condition and is conceding that he will die no matter what. It is only if he succeeds in releasing Extremis that he 'plans' on dying. Otherwise, I see him fighting for survival, because his ultimate goal is to be the bringer of what he sees as the next evolution of mankind. If he can't achieve that here, he will try to find another way to do so... and to see that through, he needs to live.

I don't agree that he's painted himself into a corner. If he succeeds in releasing Extremis, he dies but achieves his goal. But his goal is not to die; if he finds another way to achieve his goal without dying, he'd do that as well. Extremis doesn't afford him that 'luxury'.

.

Anybody whose end result is their own death has given up any semblance of logic. What I'm suggesting here is a religious fanaticism. They have no plans. If the bomb goes off, that's all they have left in them. If the bomb doesn't go off, they are defeated by their failure, and will languish in a dream state of depression. Mandarins endeavours are to release the Extremis, them he's dead. Nothing comes after the death. If he is foiled, he will continue until he is dead. But that falatism holds certain errors in his method, in that religious blindness is devoid of logic, otherwise he wouldn't be using all his gifts for such a useles