How would Watchmen have differed if it wasn't based on the Charlton characters?

[Perry Holley]

A little "what if" question, based on this thread (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?p=6513381#post6513381) and this article (http://twomorrows.com/comicbookartist/articles/09moore.html):

Moore's initial concept for Watchmen was originally based on the Archie superheroes (the Shield, the Fly, etc.), aka the Mighty Crusaders. He also mentions the possibility of using the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents in that regard, as well. My hypothetical question is this: how would Watchmen have been different if instead of the Charleton characters, he had instead based the story around another group of superhero characters? The Mighty Crusaders, the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents, or perhaps some other group of heroes that had not (at that point) been published in a long time)... any are fair game for this exercise. The overall themes would of the story would, I suspect, be the same.... but how would the characters, the specific plot points, and the other story details have differered from what was actually published?

[Lone Ranger]

Good question.

Although each character in Watchmen is important, I really just think you need 3 specific character type to fill the core of the story, then you can add more for flavour:

Master Manipulator
The Thunderbolt/Ozymandias character is obviously at the centre of the entire conflict. A superhero with delusions of grandeur is one of the most powerful plot devices in comics.

Omnipotent Being
The Captain Atom/Dr. Mahattan character is important as his powers essentially evoke fear in most people. You get the overall feeling that he might just 'go off' at any time. If someone such as this is manipulated - it poses a real threat to mankind.

Man on the Street
The Questions/Rorschach character serves as the counterbalance to both the Omnipotent Being and the Master Manipulator is attempting to manipulate the omnipotent being.

Sure, this leaves out a few characters, but the Comedian has a sufficiently limited role that his shoes could be filled by almost anyone. Nite Owl and Silk Spectre give provide much of the emotional connection to the story - but those are roles that could be played by one, two or even three characters. You need characters who are a little sad and pathetic - hoping to find some redemption.

Let's try this with the Standard/Nedor characters:

Master Manipulator
Fighting Yank - the 9/11 attacks have caused his to suffer a nervous breakdown and his hallucinations involving his dead ancestors have caused his patriotism to reach a dangerous level. For 5 years, he has holed himself up in an underground fortress, building a potentially nuclear arsenal - all he needs is a little help from a former ally to start WW3.

Omnipotent Being
Doc Strange - as his ability are 'atomic' in nature (I believe hs serum was a form of solar energy) - he is the most powerful figure in the Standard/Nedor universe. His reliance on the serum has caused minor brain damage, leading him to be more easily manipulated by Fighting Yank - who plays on his loyalty to America when seeking out his assitance in generating energy for his arsenal.

Man on the Street
Tim - Black Terror's retired sidekick, re-enters the crimefighting world when the Black Terror is found dead in an alley. Tim has been hardened over time by years in the military, and has become a bit disillusioned by the 'establishment'.


I'd see the Miss Masque character as being the 'heart' of this story - perhaps she's a bit older (unlike the 2nd generation Silk Spectre) and mourns for the fallen Black Terror - her former lover. I see her providing Tim with assistance, as she has a better chance of getting access to the Fighting Yank, as he has always wanted her and resents the Black Terror for getting in his way. I'd probably leave out the whole 'rape' backstore - as I don't want this to seem 100% like an Alan Moore story.


Same basic story - except let's subsitute Death Valley for Antarctica and we'll pepper in a bit more xenophobia to keep things topical.

That's all I've got time for this AM.

[Netley]

I'm not really familiar with the other characters mentioned here, though Lone Ranger seems to have broken down the archetypes that would be universal to the story.

Lots would be different, obviously, since Alan Moore would probably riff off of those characters' unique back stories and such. However, the overall feel of the saga, the mystery, and the exploration of the nuclear Cold War paranoia would remain true. And the duo of the kid reading the pirate comics and the newsstand owner would still be there (that part was golden!)!

Good question idea!

[Paradox]

When Moore actually redid the Nedor guys, he put Black Terror as the Omnipotent Guy. But he was the villain. :)

[hangmanjury]

I think it just goes to show that a good story idea is a good story idea, and can be tweaked and applied to just about any set of characters. I'd love to see someone take the Mighty Crusaders and apply a good, lasting story to them, but I believe I read once that it makes no sense for Archie Comics to publish a Crusaders title.

[hangmanjury]

Sorry, double post.

[hangmanjury]

Additionally, I think this says a lot for creators today - No need to create a new character and add to an already overpopulated universe when an old one will do.

[Paradox]

I think "no need for new characters" has far more to do with publishing rights, sadly.

As to Archie...well, they licensed them out before...

[hangmanjury]

I think "no need for new characters" has far more to do with publishing rights, sadly.

As to Archie...well, they licensed them out before...
Publishing rights? So long as DC owns, for example, the Mirror Master, there's no immediate need to come up with a different mirror-based villain, for example. I can understand why Malibu or Milestone's not being used, but the Tangent universe, for example, is a fully realized world they could do things in, and it took them ten years to realize that.

As for the Crusaders, Archie can license them out, but will they ever let anyone do something substantial with them? I doubt it.

[Eumenides]

Publishing rights? So long as DC owns, for example, the Mirror Master, there's no immediate need to come up with a different mirror-based villain, for example.

No need except to avoid continuity problems. A new character means you start with a clean slate; old character means you carry a huge luggage. This is especially worrisome these days one writer don't seem to know what the others are writing, and we get like 4 stories with Lex Luthor or The Joker in the same month.

I also question how anyone can call himself a creator and not create new characters. You're not going to create new super-powers or villain gimmicks, but surely you can create two mirror-based villians with different personalities.

[Perry Holley]

Master Manipulator
The Thunderbolt/Ozymandias character is obviously at the centre of the entire conflict. A superhero with delusions of grandeur is one of the most powerful plot devices in comics.

Omnipotent Being
The Captain Atom/Dr. Mahattan character is important as his powers essentially evoke fear in most people. You get the overall feeling that he might just 'go off' at any time. If someone such as this is manipulated - it poses a real threat to mankind.

Man on the Street
The Questions/Rorschach character serves as the counterbalance to both the Omnipotent Being and the Master Manipulator is attempting to manipulate the omnipotent being.

Sure, this leaves out a few characters, but the Comedian has a sufficiently limited role that his shoes could be filled by almost anyone. Nite Owl and Silk Spectre give provide much of the emotional connection to the story - but those are roles that could be played by one, two or even three characters. You need characters who are a little sad and pathetic - hoping to find some redemption.I disagree a bit with this last paragraph. I would add The Victim and the Retired Hero as necessary, not just useful, for a Watchmen-type story.

The Victim, is, in many ways, what propels the story. The Comedian's death is what allows the various mysteries of Watchmen to unravel. The Victim should be a highly polarizing figure, one that demands that the surviving heroes react strongly (but not uniformly) to his memory. If the example of the Comedian and the Shield (who Moore mentions as the template for the Victim role), then the Victim should probably also have strong government/military ties as well (if only to show off all the 'dirty tricks' that the government is capable of in this world).

The Retired Hero(es) gives us a bit of perspective in a way that the other characters, even the Man On The Street, can not. They are in many ways the most 'normal' of our characters. They've moved on past the capes and tights, and may be living some sort of normal (and boring) life as the story starts. The main story is given extra weight in that it is so big, so important, so dangerous, that the Retired Hero must come out of retirement, to play their part.

[Perry Holley]

Oh, and just for fun...

http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Comics/Humor/Archie%20Comics%20Watchmen

[Paradox]

hangmanjury comes from only one angle:http://forums.comicbookresources.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
(http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=6554755&postcount=9)
Publishing rights? So long as DC owns, for example, the Mirror Master, there's no immediate need to come up with a different mirror-based villain, for example.

That's true if you view Mirror Master's primary characteristic as the fact that he uses mirrors. There's a LOT more to characters than their powers. In fact, powers are often peripheral to the character traits. Using your own example, Evan McCulloch is QUITE a different character than Sam Scudder. Depends on if the character spot you need is a guy who uses mirrors, or a whacked-out Scotsman killer instead of a Midwestern American guy who just wants to rob banks and play games with Barry Allen. Every character with the same powers isn't interchangeable (there's a grammar problem with that sentence somewhere, but you know what I mean :)).

I think it's a matter of record that a lot of the reason creators don't come up with new characters is the fact that the company will own them. You never know who's going to take off (say, Blade) and the creator get screwed (or at least from the creator's perspective). At some point, the creator has to think "Wow, this is a really cool concept...do I really want to hand it over to DC/Marvel in perpetuity?" That's what I talking about when I reference new characters and publishing rights. The deconstructionism, etc. that guys like Moore and, to a lesser, broader extent, Kurt Busiek do is more "their gig" of exploring things. Not many writers even want to do that, much less have the talent to pull it off. Also the reason Moore (in his later years) and Busiek used venues for this kind of thing that let them retain those rights (and not a THING wrong with that).

Or our both our points kind of whizzing past each other without touching? :)

I can understand why Malibu or Milestone's not being used, but the Tangent universe, for example, is a fully realized world they could do things in, and it took them ten years to realize that.

I'm new comic "out of the loop". Are they doing something with Tangent now? More power to them, then, if so.

As for the Crusaders, Archie can license them out, but will they ever let anyone do something substantial with them? I doubt it.

It's possible, probably depending more on how much is paid and what the "substantial" is than anything. But I do see your point that, yes, "unrestricted" is certainly a reason to use public domain characters or take the Moore or Busiek angle and make different characters that still reflect the ones they're loosely based on.

[hangmanjury]

That's true if you view Mirror Master's primary characteristic as the fact that he uses mirrors. There's a LOT more to characters than their powers. In fact, powers are often peripheral to the character traits. Using your own example, Evan McCulloch is QUITE a different character than Sam Scudder. Depends on if the character spot you need is a guy who uses mirrors, or a whacked-out Scotsman killer instead of a Midwestern American guy who just wants to rob banks and play games with Barry Allen. Every character with the same powers isn't interchangeable (there's a grammar problem with that sentence somewhere, but you know what I mean :)).

I think it's a matter of record that a lot of the reason creators don't come up with new characters is the fact that the company will own them. You never know who's going to take off (say, Blade) and the creator get screwed (or at least from the creator's perspective). At some point, the creator has to think "Wow, this is a really cool concept...do I really want to hand it over to DC/Marvel in perpetuity?" That's what I talking about when I reference new characters and publishing rights. The deconstructionism, etc. that guys like Moore and, to a lesser, broader extent, Kurt Busiek do is more "their gig" of exploring things. Not many writers even want to do that, much less have the talent to pull it off. Also the reason Moore (in his later years) and Busiek used venues for this kind of thing that let them retain those rights (and not a THING wrong with that).

Or our both our points kind of whizzing past each other without touching? :)



I'm new comic "out of the loop". Are they doing something with Tangent now? More power to them, then, if so.



It's possible, probably depending more on how much is paid and what the "substantial" is than anything. But I do see your point that, yes, "unrestricted" is certainly a reason to use public domain characters or take the Moore or Busiek angle and make different characters that still reflect the ones they're loosely based on.

I guess Mirror Master was a bad example, since he's so fully formed. Captain Cold and Mr. Freeze are exceptions as well, yes.

But what about the characters with whom nothing has been done? The ones that show up in Who's Who and in the DC Encyclopedia with practically no personalities? I cite the revamp of the Calculator as a villain in the Oracle role - there was no need to create a new character to fill that role; the Calculator will do. Or even James Robinson's entire Starman run. It utilizes the history of the DC Universe, and achieves the same ends. I think it gives it more cache.

This is only for mainline in-continuity stories. I get exactly what you're saying for out-of-continuity stories where the creators would like to preserve the rights for themselves.

They're doing something with Tangent now, but, for my money, it feels more like exploiting the new multiverse for as much cash as possible with story coming in as a secondary priority. I hope I'm proven wrong, though.

[Perry Holley]

They're doing something with Tangent now, but, for my money, it feels more like exploiting the new multiverse for as much cash as possible with story coming in as a secondary priority. I hope I'm proven wrong, though.As someone who has completely ignored the whole Countdown/52 story, I enjoyed the first issue of the Tangent mini, although it's too early to tell just where it's going to go. But then, I really enjoyed the original Tangent stuff back in the day, so it wasn't exactly a hard sell for me.