Hey TITAN FANS, Will you be buying the "NEW" TITANS TITLE??

[COMIC GEEK]

The topic speaks for itself.

Alot of fans have been waiting for years for another titans title featuring the older titans for them to get their hands on.

This is not a bash judd winnick thread. I personally like him.

But as a fan of the titans will you be picking this title up?

[echopryme]

Yeah, I'll give it a whirl.

[drwho]

Once Final Crisis is over I will give it a look.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Nope....sorry its Judd Winick. I'm sure of a few things in a Judd Winick comic.


1. Someone is getting laid.

2. Someone will get HIV or become gay.

3. Your gonna see the same stories repeated 2 to 3 times since thats what Judd Winick does best.

4. He'll claim by some crazy way his characters have learned something or achieved some level of understanding but looking at what he's wrote ...you'll laugh.


Thats pretty much what to look forward in Judd Winick's Titans book.... notice my lack of excitement ...;)

[Sean Whitmore]

I'm torn on whether or not I'll even give the first issue a chance.

I like all the characters in the book, but hate the creative team, and frankly hate the idea that Wolfman's Titans have to keep getting back together as adults.


SEAN

[Froggy]

I'm torn on whether or not I'll even give the first issue a chance.

I like all the characters in the book, but hate the creative team, and frankly hate the idea that Wolfman's Titans have to keep getting back together as adults.


SEAN

I see a running gag with this

[40footwolf]

A comic written by Judd Winnick?

Good Christ, no.

[Jack Zodiac]

Don't like the writer, don't like the artist. Love the cast, but I ain't fallin' for that !@#$in' trick again.

[Captain Jim]

Has everyone so soon forgotten that we had a book like this before Graduation Day? And that nobody cared for it at all and the sales sucked? Why DC thinks they can bring it back and have it be a success now, written by one of their most controversial writers no less (to be charitable), is a mystery to me.

[echopryme]

Nope....sorry its Judd Winick. I'm sure of a few things in a Judd Winick comic.


1. Someone is getting laid.

2. Someone will get HIV or become gay.

3. Your gonna see the same stories repeated 2 to 3 times since thats what Judd Winick does best.

4. He'll claim by some crazy way his characters have learned something or achieved some level of understanding but looking at what he's wrote ...you'll laugh.


Thats pretty much what to look forward in Judd Winick's Titans book.... notice my lack of excitement ...;)


Okay, predictions, huh? Well...

1. Roy Harper's in the book, so of course someone's getting laid. That's Roy's superpower.

[Babylon23]

Donna Troy is in it, so I"ll be checking out the first issue and decide from there.

[Kevinroc]

No, I'm really not all that interested in DC's mainstream Titans franchise these days.

[Will.S]

Nice team of characters but a hell no to the creative team.

[Babylon23]

Who is the artist on this?

[Kelson]

Nope. I've been burned too many times on "Hey, maybe this run of Titans will be good!"

If the reviews are good, maybe I'll read the trades. But I'm not reaching for the carrot again.

[Gottaluvit]

Nope....sorry its Judd Winick. I'm sure of a few things in a Judd Winick comic.


1. Someone is getting laid.

2. Someone will get HIV or become gay.

3. Your gonna see the same stories repeated 2 to 3 times since thats what Judd Winick does best.

4. He'll claim by some crazy way his characters have learned something or achieved some level of understanding but looking at what he's wrote ...you'll laugh.


Thats pretty much what to look forward in Judd Winick's Titans book.... notice my lack of excitement ...;)



Because we've see like, what? 2 or 3 HIV pos characters in stories he's written? I think I missed one or two stories somewhere 'cause I only know of one. As for the couple of gay characters he's written, I like them, so I'm not complaining. I like his humor, laughings good for the soul, people get laid every day, celibate superheros are stressed heroes, they have to work all that extra adrenalin off somehow.

So yeah, I'll be buiying the new book. I have three copies on order in fact, one for me, one for my 15yr old and one for the local youth centre.

[COMIC GEEK]

But I'm not reaching for the carrot again.


be nice if you came up with your own saying.

be a leader not a follower ;)

[The Xenos]

No Winick bashing. What the point of even posting? :p

Also, it's funny. I got the a poster on my wall which is the source of the avatar original poster, Comic Geek's avatar here. I got it when the first issues of Nightwing's title were out. Been following the modern Dick Grasyon since around then. Never cared much for what little I saw of Winick's.

I saw the preview pages and.. ack. Really? Did we need Starfire reprimanding America about having a hang up about nudity? What hypocrisies. Having Starfire complaining about not accepting nudity, but still covering up her nude body. If you're going to complain, do something about it Judd. Let's see an M book with full frontal Starfire nudity. Otherwise, don't whine about ooooh how horrible America is about the nude human body. Get off your pulpit or at least show the goods. A wise man once said, Tits or GTFO.

Plus the art doesn't look that great. I just saw that cover for I think issue 3. Ugh.

[Sean Whitmore]

If you're going to complain, do something about it Judd. Let's see an M book with full frontal Starfire nudity. Otherwise, don't whine about ooooh how horrible America is about the nude human body. Get off your pulpit or at least show the goods.

Christ, are you for real?

Winick isn't the father of some new pro-naked movement. He's simply writing Starfire like Starfire. And Starfire has been pro-naked since the damn 70s and as recently as 52.

I'd say the man deserves a cookie for getting it right if I wasn't so worried the very next page will have Beast Boy expressing similar sentiments or something like that.


SEAN

[Deathstroke]

I won't be getting the new title. It's a matter of economics for me. I just can't really afford to keep adding titles without dropping some.

[DonC]

I might give it a try but I've never really connected with these Titans as a team. For example, the Nightwing that is a Titan and the Nightwing in his solo title have always seemed like two different characters to me. On the other hand, Robin (Tim) always seems to be Robin to me, even in Teen Titans. Maybe I just came in too late for the old Titans.

[Shellhead]

The topic speaks for itself.

Alot of fans have been waiting for years for another titans title featuring the older titans for them to get their hands on.

This is not a bash judd winnick thread. I personally like him.

But as a fan of the titans will you be picking this title up?

There's not point to voting in this poll if we're not going to talk about why we voted. And let's face it, Judd Winick is probably the main reason that most who voted "no" will be passing on this title.

Once upon a time, I was a fan of the Teen Titans, both the original team and the New Teen Titans. I was also a fan of various other teams and individual characters. But I was gradually learning that great writers and artists can make me interested in characters that I didn't like before. And bad writers and artists can make me drop my favorite comic immediately.

I enjoyed Judd Winick's writing on Exiles, and at first, I also enjoyed his writing on the Outsiders. If you squint, that Outsiders team looked pretty similar to his Exiles lineup, and even the team names had a certain similarity. But I got sick of the Exiles in less than a year, and I noticed certain themes, jokes, and concepts that Winick relied on too heavily, and then I was done with him.

[Rattlehead]

Nope. Judd Winick's writing gives me hives, and Ian Churchill's art is far too "pin-up" like for me to ever follow a monthly book by him. That's probably the most inappropriate creative team DC could have found for the book. So of course they run with it. I'll stick to reading the real Nightwing over in Tomasi's book, as opposed to Judd's caricature.

That, and I'll be blunt, no version of the Titans has been any good since the old Wolfman days. It's just not the same anymore, and the magic of that series can't be rekindled. It's over.

[jade_nova]

Nope....sorry its Judd Winick. I'm sure of a few things in a Judd Winick comic.


1. Someone is getting laid.

2. Someone will get HIV or become gay.

3. Your gonna see the same stories repeated 2 to 3 times since thats what Judd Winick does best.

4. He'll claim by some crazy way his characters have learned something or achieved some level of understanding but looking at what he's wrote ...you'll laugh.


Thats pretty much what to look forward in Judd Winick's Titans book.... notice my lack of excitement ...;)

Looking at his past work number two is pretty much guaranteed.

[WorstThingUS]

It says a lot that the most frequent complaint is that someone is revealed to be gay or contracts HIV. How sad are all of you?

The main problem is his writing is just lame. Sex has a place in comics, but not his sniggering adolescent view of it. I fear the day he and Ed Benes work together. And he pulls characterizations out of his ass, utterly ignoring what's come before or going on elsewhere.

[Rattlehead]

It says a lot that the most frequent complaint is that someone is revealed to be gay or contracts HIV. How sad are all of you?

Because he takes serious issues and trivializes them in an effort to be more controversial. If he could tackle those issues like a mature adult, that would be fine.

[SensorBoy]

It says a lot that the most frequent complaint is that someone is revealed to be gay or contracts HIV. How sad are all of you?
.

It's not that he addresses those issues, it's that he does it badly and with little thought.

The Gay character comes Out just in time to be gaybashed, so Judd can emote. Then, for all intents and purposes, back the Gay character goes, into the Closet (or limbo, whichever applies).

His Outsiders arc with the kiddy-slavers was particularly egregious, as he basically had the characters say "Oh, well, this isn't our thing"*. IOW, Judd only had a 3-issue arc to address a major social issue, then had the heroes blow it off so he could move on to the next arc. That works with the Sinestro, but doesn't work with child prostitution.

Why doesn't Ollie ask Clark to use some Kryptonian superscience to cure Mia's HIV? Guess he doesn't care.

If you are going to address serious issues in a superhero comic and still maintain internal consistency (characters acting....in character), you have to use nuance. Winnick lacks this ability.

*-it's an unwritten rule to keep superheroes away from major social issues. Why? Because it would ruin the character or make light a serious subject.

Batman has to be written as if the Ukrainian Mafiya was not forcing 12yo Russian girls to blow goats in Crime Alley. If he knew of that sort of thing, he'd never quit until it was stopped (or he would be acting out of character), no matter how long it took. While it may make an interesting arc, full of pathos, 300 issues of Detective Comics dealing with the same subject would be....ill-advised.

[Young Avenger]

I wouldn't touch the new Titans book as long as Winnick's name is on the cover

[BoosterBronze]

I'm torn on whether or not I'll even give the first issue a chance.

I like all the characters in the book, but hate the creative team, and frankly hate the idea that Wolfman's Titans have to keep getting back together as adults.


SEAN

I for one don't have a problem with a team having consistent membership. I don't think a story with new characters is inherently better than a story with old characters. I don't see why the Titans can't be like the Fantastic Four, where we're happy with the team's roster and it doesn't need 'shaking up' every six issues to keep interest.

[WorstThingUS]

Because he takes serious issues and trivializes them in an effort to be more controversial. If he could tackle those issues like a mature adult, that would be fine.

So he treats them like he does everything else. Sigh.

[Sean Whitmore]

I don't think a story with new characters is inherently better than a story with old characters.

I don't think anyone thinks that. Or said that.

I just don't think the way for any of these characters to grow is to keep sticking them with their friends from high school. If this were a garage band instead of a super hero team, all their mentors would be telling them to go out and get a real job.


SEAN

[Kelson]

be nice if you came up with your own saying.

be a leader not a follower ;)

My apologies. What I should have said is that I've learned to stop grabbing the electric fence. :rolleyes:

[Zero Hunter]

Hey it can't be worse than the total suckfest that the Teen Titans books has become since Johns left. I will give it a few issues.

[raul the cat]

Winick? No.

[Nite-Wing]

Hey it can't be worse than the total suckfest that the Teen Titans books has become since Johns left. I will give it a few issues.

Thats really not fair since I remember the titans east storyline by Johns being the worst titans story that year. Plus why does everyone hate what winnick does? Its been said time and time again those are his themes for his stories and bring more reality to DC's unrealistic world.

[hotrodimus]

i was a huge 80s titans fan... but seeing the latest solicitations, this will be as much as si feared.. winnick is just gonna crap all over the chracters. sorry i gave that guy too many chances already.. not even having the 80s titans can bring me from buying any of his books

[COMIC GEEK]

well I'm willing to give the book and him a shot. As a titans fan how can you not at least buy the first few issues.


:D

[Nite-Wing]

i was a huge 80s titans fan... but seeing the latest solicitations, this will be as much as si feared.. winnick is just gonna crap all over the chracters. sorry i gave that guy too many chances already.. not even having the 80s titans can bring me from buying any of his books

Give me some examples of characters winnick has crapped on and I'll give you atleast two that he has created who have been great.

[COMIC GEEK]

I'm looking foward in seeing for the people who posted and said they wont be buying the title ever with winnick on it.

start talking about the issue once it comes out.


cause you really cant state your feedback and opinion if you dont read it for yourself.

[DavidAllred]

The main problem is his writing is just lame. Sex has a place in comics, but not his sniggering adolescent view of it. I fear the day he and Ed Benes work together. And he pulls characterizations out of his ass, utterly ignoring what's come before or going on elsewhere.

QFT. It's like he stands in a sixth grade boys locker room with a note pad to create his mind-bending sexual dialogue.

I mean, jeez. Look at the June solicit. It begins with the line: "Random hook-ups." Are you serious? The more I hear about this book, the less I ever want to hear about it. Let me keep my memory of the Titans semen-free please.

Personally, I think it's pretty sick to sink these characters to this kind of marketing level. First Judd's got a hard-on for nudity in his interview. Then we get the preview pages replete with his anti-American sermon about nudity, now a solicit with "random hook-ups." Tell me he's not marketing his title on Donna Troy's ass and Starfire's tits, and I'll sell you some beach front property in Tennessee.

[Michael P]

Give me some examples of characters winnick has crapped on and I'll give you atleast two that he has created who have been great.

Yeah, but Barry Ween and Frumpy the Clown won't be in this.

[Sean Whitmore]

Give me some examples of characters winnick has crapped on and I'll give you atleast two that he has created who have been great.

This is a game that can have no winners, but I'm curious to see who you'll say. So:

Connor Hawke and Jade.


SEAN

[Sean Whitmore]

cause you really cant state your feedback and opinion if you dont read it for yourself.

Then there's really not a point to this thread yet.


SEAN

[DonC]

cause you really cant state your feedback and opinion if you dont read it for yourself.


Why not? You asked if people were going to buy the book, not if they liked it.

[Shellhead]

[Jack Nicholson]Do you want the truth? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH![/Jack Nicholson]

[Gottaluvit]

This is a game that can have no winners, but I'm curious to see who you'll say. So:

Connor Hawke and Jade.


SEAN

I never even heard of Jade until Winick used her, when they killed her off in space (A story that Winick didn't write, unless I'm mistaken) I was really dissapointed, I hope she comes back one day. If making someone care about a character that they never gave a thought to before is bad, then yeah, he sure did that.

As for Connor, I can't wait to see how his story unfolds because his story is definitely still in motion. Without being able to forsee the future I don't know if it can be said that the character won't come back even more awsome then he was before once the story is finished being told.

[DavidAllred]

As for Connor, I can't wait to see how his story unfolds because his story is definitely still in motion. Without being able to forsee the future I don't know if it can be said that the character won't come back even more awsome then he was before once the story is finished being told.

Well, maybe when he wakes up Shado really will be his mom.

[Gottaluvit]

Well, maybe when he wakes up Shado really will be his mom.


And that will make a certain Birds of Prey writers mistaken comments make more sense. I know Newsarama reported Winick as slipping and saying that, but it was never confirmed by Newsarama whether that was a misprint or not, even so, it never made its way into print like it did in BOP. (I really hope they correct that blunder in the upcoming TP that will include that issue of BOP in it.)

[Jack Zodiac]

Give me some examples of characters winnick has crapped on and I'll give you atleast two that he has created who have been great.

Like... Indigo? Jefferson's niece? Shift? Constantine Drakon? Thunder? Grace? He craps all over his own creations, even.

[d newton]

And that will make a certain Birds of Prey writers mistaken comments make more sense.
Which writer?

[nj06]

QFT. It's like he stands in a sixth grade boys locker room with a note pad to create his mind-bending sexual dialogue.

I mean, jeez. Look at the June solicit. It begins with the line: "Random hook-ups." Are you serious? The more I hear about this book, the less I ever want to hear about it. Let me keep my memory of the Titans semen-free please.

Personally, I think it's pretty sick to sink these characters to this kind of marketing level. First Judd's got a hard-on for nudity in his interview. Then we get the preview pages replete with his anti-American sermon about nudity, now a solicit with "random hook-ups." Tell me he's not marketing his title on Donna Troy's ass and Starfire's tits, and I'll sell you some beach front property in Tennessee.

Hey can someone provide me the link to where I can read about the interview mentioned above and see some of the preview pages?

[DavidAllred]

Hey can someone provide me the link to where I can read about the interview mentioned above and see some of the preview pages?

The interview is here: http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=12849

The preview pages were in last months Batman and Outsiders. I've not seen them linked.

[WorstThingUS]

I'm looking foward in seeing for the people who posted and said they wont be buying the title ever with winnick on it.

start talking about the issue once it comes out.


cause you really cant state your feedback and opinion if you dont read it for yourself.

Actually you can state your opinion on whatever you'd like. It may not be an informed one, but it's still an opinion. And the thread isn't about the product but anticipation of the product. You can't get angry just because people didn't respond the way you'd like. Devin Grayson proved a bad writer can drive away even the most devoted Titans fan. Winnick will continue this sad trend.

[brett tolino]

Love the characters but not intrested in the creative team.

Frankly, I read the preview and it looks like fanfic to me. Dan Didio editing the book doesn't give me much more confidence in the quality either.

[brett tolino]

I'm torn on whether or not I'll even give the first issue a chance.

I like all the characters in the book, but hate the creative team, and frankly hate the idea that Wolfman's Titans have to keep getting back together as adults.


SEAN

I love the Wolfman Titans and actually like the idea of them getting together as adults... but DC keeps putting horrible teams on the book (Devin Grayson, Jay Faerber, Tom Peyer and now, Judd Winick) so it keeps going from bad to worse.

The characters can only be as good as the team presenting the stories. Most of them read like very bad fanfic which ruins the concept.

[Kelson]

DC keeps putting horrible teams on the book (Devin Grayson, Jay Faerber, Tom Peyer and now, Judd Winick) so it keeps going from bad to worse.

Semi-OT, but I really like Jay Faerber's work on his own material. A friend of mine convinced me to read the first 2 Noble Causes trades, and I was hooked. Firebirds is one of the few one-shots I've read where I closed the book and thought, "Wow, I really wish this was #1 of an ongoing." Dynamo 5 has been a solid read as well.

And yet I'll agree that his run on Titans was really disappointing.

I have no idea how much of the problem was the editor (IIRC having the DEO kids take over was the editor's idea) and how much was just a mismatch between the writer and characters.

[WorstThingUS]

This cover is awful and inspires no hope.

http://images.comicbookresources.com/solicits/dccomics/200806/dcu/TNSv2-Cv3_solicit.jpg

[Jack Zodiac]

Yep. Godawful cover and a really sad homage/rip-off/whatever to a really sad movie. "Sad" like "Beverly Hills Cop 3," not "sad" like "American Beauty."

[Shellhead]

Did anybody change their mind after seeing that cover?

[brett tolino]

Define 'changing your mind'.

Before seeing the cover, I wouldn't have bought the book.

After seeing the cover, I wouldn't take the book if you gave it to me for free.

That cover is really, really bad.

And Dan (Countdown) Didio is editing, which confirms the amateur art. Seriously, what's wrong with Donna and Wally's mouths? They look like they're ready to eat each other.

[Jack Zodiac]

And Dan (Countdown) Didio is editing, which confirms the amateur art. Seriously, what's wrong with Donna and Wally's mouths? They look like they're ready to eat each other.

That could be part of Winick's storyline. Drama!

[Sean Whitmore]

Seriously, what's wrong with Donna and Wally's mouths? They look like they're ready to eat each other.

That could be part of Winick's storyline.

No, he didn't mean "eat" that way.


SEAN

[Jessica Drew]

No way. I'm sure we all know why.

As far as the cover...I've bought books with worse, but...one question...when Professor X re-gained the use of his legs, did he let Vic borrow his hover chair leftover from the '90s?

[Jack Zodiac]

Maybe Vic got a side job cleaning the ice skating rink in Manhattan.

[Gottaluvit]

No way. I'm sure we all know why.

As far as the cover...I've bought books with worse, but...one question...when Professor X re-gained the use of his legs, did he let Vic borrow his hover chair leftover from the '90s?

The hover chair Vic's using has been seen before. He won't be in it for long, last time it was only a temperary measure untill he was back on his feet (no pun intended), Seeing as he was blasted to a torso in the Titan's East special, I imagine he needs a few repairs to get him on his feet literally.

[Radioactive Zombie]

No, he didn't mean "eat" that way.


SEAN

Woah... woah.

Okay, are we talking about "eat" as in "I'M GONNA CONSUME YA", or "eat" as in "suck someone off"?

[shadow knight]

Nope....sorry its Judd Winick. I'm sure of a few things in a Judd Winick comic.


1. Someone is getting laid.

2. Someone will get HIV or become gay.

3. Your gonna see the same stories repeated 2 to 3 times since thats what Judd Winick does best.

4. He'll claim by some crazy way his characters have learned something or achieved some level of understanding but looking at what he's wrote ...you'll laugh.


Thats pretty much what to look forward in Judd Winick's Titans book.... notice my lack of excitement ...;)

LOL true true

[COMIC GEEK]

Did anybody change their mind after seeing that cover?

No I've bought comics that has had worse looking covers. An issue of robin, comes to mind.

This cover is awful and inspires no hope.

http://images.comicbookresources.com/solicits/dccomics/200806/dcu/TNSv2-Cv3_solicit.jpg

I agree the cover is pretty bad, but Im looking foward as to who or what is controlling the titans actions. aside from judd ;)

[brett tolino]

No I've bought comics that has had worse looking covers. An issue of robin, comes to mind.



I agree the cover is pretty bad, but Im looking foward as to who or what is controlling the titans actions. aside from judd ;)

That would be Dynamo Dan Didio.

He's the new editor.

Think: Countdown, only worse.
Just look at the art on Countdown and now, Titans.

[brett tolino]

That could be part of Winick's storyline. Drama!

Sadly, there's more drama in this thread than in one of Winick's stories.

Maybe Comicbookresources should just charge people $2.99 to get onto the boards. ;)

[drwho]

That cover is definitely a hell no for someone sitting on the fence for this book like me. It looks like a bad copy of Turner's style. Not good at all. Also funny that a book that is supposed to be so "popular" is having a lot of no votes.

[Gottaluvit]

That cover is definitely a hell no for someone sitting on the fence for this book like me. It looks like a bad copy of Turner's style. Not good at all. Also funny that a book that is supposed to be so "popular" is having a lot of no votes.

I don't like the cover either, but I see a lot of covers I don't think much of, yet the books are fine. I'm not surprised by number of 'no' votes here, its a mixed forum and Titans aren't everyones cup-for-tea. I've seen this same poll run on a Titan's forum and the yes votes are around 70%.

[Nite-Wing]

This is a game that can have no winners, but I'm curious to see who you'll say. So:

Connor Hawke and Jade.


SEAN

Okay Grace and Thunder

[Sean Whitmore]

Okay Grace and Thunder

UGH!

Ew!

You said Grace.

I need to go shower now.


(But seriously; terrible, terrible character)


SEAN

[brundlefly]

I vote 'no' as well. Judd Winnick as the writer is the big avoidance factor for me, but also playing a small part were those smirky-smug ads for the title: "Titans! Together! Any questions?!" Yeah, here's one: Why? DC's relaunched this book several times to disappointment and diminishing returns each time. And I highly doubt Winnick/Churchill are the magic combo that will make it a runaway hit this go-around. I love the Wolfman/Perez-era Titans as much as the next guy, but just let it go already with constantly reuniting that Titans lineup.

[Shellhead]

Those Titans are at a very awkward age in the DCU anyway. Too old to be teen heroes anymore, yet too young to be seen as equals to the older heroes like Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman. Or even Power Girl. Especially Dick Grayson. If he gets even a tiny bit older, it's going to call into question how old Batman is, and that's a problem because he isn't superhuman.

[Paul Newell]

Moved all the off-topic stuff to here (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=180193).

[COMIC GEEK]

Moved all the off-topic stuff to here (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=180193).


thank you.

[Alex Smith]

I'm completely out of the loop here. When is the first issue shipping?

[COMIC GEEK]

I'm completely out of the loop here. When is the first issue shipping?

mid april..........

[MutoMikey]

I'll be getting it!

I don't get it, I like Winnick. I think Green Arrow/Black Canary is awesome. I thought his GA run was awesome. :confused:

I mean, yeah, I didn't really care for Outsiders, but this looks pretty good. :D

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I'll be getting it!

I don't get it, I like Winnick. I think Green Arrow/Black Canary is awesome. I thought his GA run was awesome. :confused:


Well lets be honest....if you like juvenile sexual situations , stories repeated 2-3 times straight (Ollie veries zombies and monsters !!) and villains who once they show up in his title become instantly retarded then Winick's GA is for you. Many of us who have complained take issue with Winick's writing.

He is like a Reginald Hudlin in the sense that he could have a good idea but delivers it in such a way its so bad. Remember when Ollie won as Mayor of Star City ? Now him as mayor could have been good and written by a Greg Rucka we would have gotten a great political driven/super heroic type series. In fact I guarentee had Rucka written "Mayor Ollie" that storyline would still be ongoing and see the character take actual twists and turns.

Instead written by such a horrible writer we had Oliver Queen screaming 'GAY RIGHTS !! AND MARRYING EM ON THE STEPS OF THE CAPITOL !"

That ladies and gentlemen sums up Judd Winick. He had a brilliant story idea , then writes it in such a way it sucks the life from the character to the point no one cares . In fact his resolution was so sh-tty that whatever payof Judd had for the storyline was lost.

That is my rant against Judd Winick. He is just a horrible superhero writer now. If Dan Didio didn't have lips on Winick's behind and would see that the books he does is awful , maybe he'd put good writers on Oliver Queen and rebuild the character.

If you wanna see the "Real Oliver Queen" he'll be showing up in James Robinson's Justice League series soon. The one written by Judd Winick is a lame , juvenile version of Judd who screams something liberal and has crazy stupied sex to sell to geeks.

[Gottaluvit]

I'll be getting it!

I don't get it, I like Winnick. I think Green Arrow/Black Canary is awesome. I thought his GA run was awesome. :confused:

I mean, yeah, I didn't really care for Outsiders, but this looks pretty good. :D

I'm enjoying his GA/BC as well. I like Judd's take on GA more then just about any other writers take since 1979 (when I first discovered GA). And I really liked his Batman run.

April 9th is the release date for Titan's 1.

[MutoMikey]

Well lets be honest....if you like juvenile sexual situations , stories repeated 2-3 times straight (Ollie veries zombies and monsters !!) and villains who once they show up in his title become instantly retarded then Winick's GA is for you.
If you wanna see the "Real Oliver Queen" he'll be showing up in James Robinson's Justice League series soon. The one written by Judd Winick is a lame , juvenile version of Judd who screams something liberal and has crazy stupied sex to sell to geeks.

Um, ouch. A little harsh, sir?

[QUOTE=Gottaluvit;6556807]I'm enjoying his GA/BC as well. I like Judd's take on GA more then just about any other writers take since 1979 (when I first discovered GA). And I really liked his Batman run.
QUOTE]

Yeah! I forgot about his Batman run! That kinda drug me back to the Bat for the first time in a couple years. Thanks for remindin' me! :D Winnick's my favorite GA writer, but Kevin Smith's run introduced me to the character! I've got the TPB of Quiver on the bookshelf.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Um, ouch. A little harsh, sir?
.

Winick always pushes my buttons. I just find him to be the absolute worst writer at DC. I liked Kevin SMith's Green Arrow. But the guy who made Oliver Queen is and was "Mike Grell". His run on the series is considered the best that character ever had.

[Gottaluvit]

[QUOTE=MutoMikey;6556884]Um, ouch. A little harsh, sir?
/QUOTE]


I tend to ignore rants that attack other fans. Some fans feel their opinion is the only one that matters and aren't articulate enough to express the/r point of veiw without resorting to attacks on other fans who's opinions differ.

The Winick Batman run was darn good. I've enjoyed the GA run, my main dissapointment at times was with the art, some of the art in some arcs was horrible IMO, but still, I collected the trades as well as the individual issues which is something I do when I really enjoy a book, that way I don't have to keep taking my comics out of their bags and I can read the trades in the complete story form. My GA trades have been reread too many times to count.

[Gottaluvit]

the guy who made Oliver Queen is and was "Mike Grell". His run on the series is considered the best that character ever had.


By some. You'd be surprised to know there are quite a few GA fans who didn't enjoy Grell's entire run. I hated a number of things about his run, there were good stories scattered through it, but he had IMO, as many misses as he had hits and thats no different to many writers today, there just wasn't internet message boards around in his day for fans to express their opinions on his work, I'd bet his writing would have been controversial at the time as well.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I tend to ignore rants that attack other fans. Some fans feel there opinion is the only one that matters and aren't articulate enough to express ther point of veiw without resorting to attacks on other fans who's opinions differ.

Where in that rant is there an attack on him ? I mean could you not read something more than what was posted about Judd Winick. In FACT ....here is the entire post again.


Well lets be honest....if you like juvenile sexual situations , stories repeated 2-3 times straight (Ollie veries zombies and monsters !!) and villains who once they show up in his title become instantly retarded then Winick's GA is for you. Many of us who have complained take issue with Winick's writing.

He is like a Reginald Hudlin in the sense that he could have a good idea but delivers it in such a way its so bad. Remember when Ollie won as Mayor of Star City ? Now him as mayor could have been good and written by a Greg Rucka we would have gotten a great political driven/super heroic type series. In fact I guarentee had Rucka written "Mayor Ollie" that storyline would still be ongoing and see the character take actual twists and turns.

Instead written by such a horrible writer we had Oliver Queen screaming 'GAY RIGHTS !! AND MARRYING EM ON THE STEPS OF THE CAPITOL !"

That ladies and gentlemen sums up Judd Winick. He had a brilliant story idea , then writes it in such a way it sucks the life from the character to the point no one cares . In fact his resolution was so sh-tty that whatever payof Judd had for the storyline was lost.

That is my rant against Judd Winick. He is just a horrible superhero writer now. If Dan Didio didn't have lips on Winick's behind and would see that the books he does is awful , maybe he'd put good writers on Oliver Queen and rebuild the character.

If you wanna see the "Real Oliver Queen" he'll be showing up in James Robinson's Justice League series soon. The one written by Judd Winick is a lame , juvenile version of Judd who screams something liberal and has crazy stupied sex to sell to geeks.


Its no shame in not reading what was posted....

[Gottaluvit]

I already read your rant once, no need to repost in bold. I have no objection to you expressing your veiws about Winick, but I'm just as entitled to express my veiws about your lableing of anyone who enjoys his writing as "Geeks" who like "juvenile sexual situations" IMO that is an attack on the character of other fans. You could simply have left a couple of words out of your rant, got your opinion across and not come off as an arogant ass, twist and turn all you want, but your wording does insult other fans.

[MutoMikey]

Winick always pushes my buttons. I just find him to be the absolute worst writer at DC. I liked Kevin SMith's Green Arrow. But the guy who made Oliver Queen is and was "Mike Grell". His run on the series is considered the best that character ever had.

The Grell run was okay, not my favorite though...



I tend to ignore rants that attack other fans. Some fans feel there opinion is the only one that matters and aren't articulate enough to express ther point of veiw without resorting to attacks on other fans who's opinions differ.

The Winick Batman run was darn good. I've enjoyed the GA run, my main dissapointment at times was with the art, some of the art in some arcs was horrible IMO, but still, I collected the trades as well as the individual issues which is something I do when I really enjoy a book, that way I don't have to keep taking my comics out of their bags and I can read the trades in the complete story form. My GA trades have been reread too many times to count.

Thanks.

I've done the same with Blue Beetle and Robinson's Starman.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I already read your rant once, no need to repost in bold. I have no objection to you expressing your veiws about Winick, but I'm just as entitled to express my veiws about your lableing of anyone who enjoys his writing as "Geeks" who like "juvenile sexual situations" IMO that is an attack on the character of other fans. You could simply have left a couple of words out of your rant, got your opinion across and not come off as an arogant ass, twist and turn all you want, but your wording does insult other fans.

Man alive ...this is just....


Ok ...Winick's writing... to many adults...(go on Yabs who are much harsher than me) have slammed Winick's writing of relationships since he handles topics like sex in a juvenile manner. If you honestly think thats slamming you then wow. I mean...wow.

And yeah he sells the sex...I mean I'd be lying if I didn't say I enjoy a great sex scene in a comic and yes I am a geeky guy. So its not like I went and said "Judd Winick writes to all losers on comic book message sites..." (Since really...I am someone who posts on a comic message site)

No ...I critqiued his writing of male and female relationships in his work. Thats there. It comes across as bad or as some have said on other boards "juvenile". Its not supposed to be a slam on those who post online. And why I gotta explain this is silly.

[Gottaluvit]

Man alive ...this is just....


Ok ...Winick's writing... to many adults...(go on Yabs who are much harsher than me) have slammed Winick's writing of relationships since he handles topics like sex in a juvenile manner. If you honestly think thats slamming you then wow. I mean...wow.

And yeah he sells the sex...I mean I'd be lying if I didn't say I enjoy a great sex scene in a comic and yes I am a geeky guy. So its not like I went and said "Judd Winick writes to all losers on comic book message sites..." (Since really...I am someone who posts on a comic message site)

No ...I critqiued his writing of male and female relationships in his work. Thats there. It comes across as bad or as some have said on other boards "juvenile". Its not supposed to be a slam on those who post online. And why I gotta explain this is silly.


Okay, you've explained a little better. You're original post stated that he sells sex to geeks, hence those who buys his books are 'geeks' and your opening sentence stated "Well lets be honest....if you like juvenile sexual situations..." so folks who read his books like juvenile sexual situations according to your stated opinion, perhaps you simply aren't able to see why some fans could read those comments and feel you are saying they are juvenile 'geeks' for reading Winicks work, if you can't, then there's little point in further discussion about it.

I don't read GA for 'Juvenile sexual situations." At 40, with four kids and a rather hectic and fulfilling life, I'm way beyond that, but I'm aware that a number of younger readers may find that important, and the younger male readers is what DC really aims their books at, so I accept those situations are going to be written into the book. I like the way Winick writes for a variety of other reasons, and I don't doubt that I will enjoy his new Titan's books as well.

[MutoMikey]

Look, it's cool if someone likes Winnick and if someone doesn't. I just don't think we need to berate eachother for one or the other. But thanks for the words Gottaluvit. :D

Well, I'm 18 and don't read Green Arrow for 'juvenile sexual' crap either. I read it because I think Green Arrow, the character, is awesome! And I think Judd Winnick does a great job writing him! I think he gets the liberal/left wing aspect of him and the overall attitude of Oliver Queen which is an attitude an view I've shared with the character. (oh, and my girlfriend loves GA/BC too)

But back to the subject of TITANS.

I'm really interested to see his take on these characters. We've seen his take on Nightwing and Red Arrow/Arsenal before, now for the rest of em. I'm really looking forward to some Beast Boy action! :D He's always been one of my favorite Titans. Maybe he can pick back up on his and Raven's recently abandoned realationship. I'm wondering who the antagonist for the first arc will be. The one-shot left me on a cliff hanger!!! So I think we're actually gonna have a good Titan series now.

[COMIC GEEK]

So who are the 7 or so posters that let other people voice their opinions to determine whether or not they buy a comic book.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

So who are the 7 or so posters that let other people voice their opinions to determine whether or not they buy a comic book.

More or less its a group of people who come online and pretty much all agree.... Judd Winick's work blows ...and they all pretty much can agree since its the same . The general thought among many who diss Judd's DC work is... "He did great with Exiles and his Barry Ween is great as well...."

Its his DC work...and I won't even get into how horrible Mayor Oliver Queen was. Which with a good writer could have changed the book to a good political/super hero type conspiracy book ....and instead became Ollie screaming about Gay Rights. Which shows how clever Winick is...since he couldn't do the book without making the storyline cartoony as hell.

[AndersonT]

I'll give it a shot. Titans for me is like eating Pringles. I eat one and then try another, in the hope that the next one will taste better. Before I know it, my tube is empty and I'm tempted to try another flavor and begin the cycle of abuse all over again.

:)

[Bat-Reader]

I will totally give all the "new" titans title a try. Titans Together ! :D

[estee]

Sure what the hell.

It's got Raven in it.

Maybe, by some fricken miracle, she'll won't be portrayed as a complete air head and be in the book for more than four panels.

[Tre Styles]

Absolutely. I always give every Titans title a trial run..... and then I usually end up staying for awhile. I love em! ;)

[titanfan]

Isn't Didio editing the title himself? Imho, he will not let this title fail, he'll bring back Wolfman/Perez if he has to in order to keep this book successful.

[Francis]

So who are the 7 or so posters that let other people voice their opinions to determine whether or not they buy a comic book.
Some of us wait for reviews and scans of a few pages over on scans_daily. A preview and a few scans can normally pick out the turkeys.

[Animation]

So who are the 7 or so posters that let other people voice their opinions to determine whether or not they buy a comic book.

Hey I didnt make the poll. I felt a little stupid for picking that one, because I agree with the "maybe" part but not the "let others think for me" part. Basically, the "maybe" option on the poll ... sucked.

I picked maybe because I havent decided yet. I will probably (gasp) skim the first couple of shelf issues to see if it is utter garbage, or if its the kind of garbage that appeals to my prurient interests. :) If it seems entertaining, I will pick up the trades. If not, then I wont. Therefore "maybe".

Lewis

[COMIC GEEK]

Some of us wait for reviews and scans of a few pages over on scans_daily. A preview and a few scans can normally pick out the turkeys.

Hey I didnt make the poll. I felt a little stupid for picking that one, because I agree with the "maybe" part but not the "let others think for me" part. Basically, the "maybe" option on the poll ... sucked.

I picked maybe because I havent decided yet. I will probably (gasp) skim the first couple of shelf issues to see if it is utter garbage, or if its the kind of garbage that appeals to my prurient interests. :) If it seems entertaining, I will pick up the trades. If not, then I wont. Therefore "maybe".

Lewis

I made that a choice cause I have seen alot of fans go by what other fans say in regards to their opinions and feedback and that makes some people not buy a comic, without having them read an issue and then make up their own mind.

"be a leader not a follower" ;)

[Gottaluvit]

I made that a choice cause I have seen alot of fans go by what other fans say in regards to their opinions and feedback and that makes some people not buy a comic, without having them read an issue and then make up their own mind.

"be a leader not a follower" ;)


Actually fan feedback is very valuable for me when I'm trying to decide wether to pick up a new book or not, especially if it's a book I normally wouldn't buy (Books like Titan's there's no worries, the characters sell it to me). It was fan reaction that caused me to pick up Blue Beetle and The All New Atom, both books I normally would not have given a second thought to.

All my books are mail ordered, I don't have the opertunity to go into a store and browse books to see if I like them, the nearest LCS to me is 1500 kms away, so I have no choice but to read fan feedback to help me make a decision on a book.

[Taskmaster]

Nightwing is my second favorite DC character, and with the rest of the old school line-up beside him I'll definitely be on board

[COMIC GEEK]

Actually fan feedback is very valuable for me when I'm trying to decide wether to pick up a new book or not, especially if it's a book I normally wouldn't buy (Books like Titan's there's no worries, the characters sell it to me). It was fan reaction that caused me to pick up Blue Beetle and The All New Atom, both books I normally would not have given a second thought to.

All my books are mail ordered, I don't have the opertunity to go into a store and browse books to see if I like them, the nearest LCS to me is 1500 kms away, so I have no choice but to read fan feedback to help me make a decision on a book.


thats kinda tough then, cause say one issue sucks, but the next issue kicks tail and both issues are tied into each other. then what do you do? :eek:

[Gottaluvit]

thats kinda tough then, cause say one issue sucks, but the next issue kicks tail and both issues are tied into each other. then what do you do? :eek:

When I decide to jump on board I'm on for at least three arcs, I never toss a book off my pull list for just an issue or two being crappy, likewise some arcs are better then others, I always give the book time, so if two out of three full story arcs fail to kep me impressed, then the book gets dropped.

[COMIC GEEK]

When I decide to jump on board I'm on for at least three arcs, I never toss a book off my pull list for just an issue or two being crappy, likewise some arcs are better then others, I always give the book time, so if two out of three full story arcs fail to kep me impressed, then the book gets dropped.

soooo, are you on for the first 3-5 issues of the new title?

[Gottaluvit]

soooo, are you on for the first 3-5 issues of the new title?

Arcs and issues are different. As I said, I always stay on for at least three arcs, thats a few more than 3 issues, and that is for books I normally wouldn't collect. As for the new title, its Winick, I like his stuff, and Roy's there...wild horses couldn't drag me away. :D

[K'Nort]

I made that a choice cause I have seen alot of fans go by what other fans say in regards to their opinions and feedback and that makes some people not buy a comic, without having them read an issue and then make up their own mind.

"be a leader not a follower" ;)

You keep using that term. I do not think it means what you think it means.


I love the Titans, but I'm saving my money for the next Archive. (To join the others.) One, I've read more than enough Winick. Two, I don't trust any major-character DCU title these days. I've dropped them all. Which I would have called inconceivable even a couple years ago. But their current direction has completely lost me.

[sHayden]

I'll try it. Though if I had my way, Frank Cho would be drawing Star Fire.
And as for the posts about Winnick giving people AIDS. Come on! He's still on his kick of; "I was on the Real World over a decade ago, and my friend from that show Pedro died of AIDS....blah blah blah blah blah!"

[COMIC GEEK]

You keep using that term. I do not think it means what you think it means.


I love the Titans, but I'm saving my money for the next Archive. (To join the others.) One, I've read more than enough Winick. Two, I don't trust any major-character DCU title these days. I've dropped them all. Which I would have called inconceivable even a couple years ago. But their current direction has completely lost me.


I do think it means what its meant to mean,meaning on how people do what other people say they should do.

get my meaning ;)

nice avatar btw--- thats old school :)

[Francis]

I made that a choice cause I have seen alot of fans go by what other fans say in regards to their opinions and feedback and that makes some people not buy a comic, without having them read an issue and then make up their own mind.

"be a leader not a follower" ;)

I don't have the time, the money, or the inclination to read every bit of crap DC and Marvel put out. Consequently reviews, previews, and excerpts are extremely useful things.

[Johnny_Luck]

You keep using that term. I do not think it means what you think it means.


I love the Titans, but I'm saving my money for the next Archive. (To join the others.) One, I've read more than enough Winick. Two, I don't trust any major-character DCU title these days. I've dropped them all. Which I would have called inconceivable even a couple years ago. But their current direction has completely lost me.

You are awesome alone just for referencing one of the best movies of all time(people who don't get the first line ref really, really need to go watch the Princess Bride)

On the Other Hand like people say Money is tight for a lot of us, I really spend all my free money nowadays on comics, rather than movies and books like I used to. Which means I have to be selective in what I read.

However there is no way a book with Winick, Churchill and Starfire will be bad.

[Lex]

This is not a bash judd winnick thread.
Drat. Well, I guess that means I have no comment other than to say I voted "no."

[COMIC GEEK]

Drat. Well, I guess that means I have no comment other than to say I voted "no."

good boy ;)

[Kage Kisaragi]

Never becoming to attach to a Team Name should be the hallmark of a comic reader. Obviously over time the team will change, I wouldn't allow the fact that 20 years from now there might have been 2 or 3 more different Teen Titans or Titans stop me from reading about a group who has had so many stories done about them. Besides its not like guest appearances are a non factor in comics.

[Shellhead]

I keep giving Teen Titans another chance, but I'm done with it now until DC decides to put an A-list creative team on it. And no, Winick doesn't even come close to A-list, and that cover art is nothing to brag about either. The vast majority of Titans comics after the initial Wolfman/Perez run have been disappointing, including even quite a few issues by Marv Wolfman. And Perez isn't doing pencils fast enough these days to keep up with a monthly title.

In the mean time, DC seems content to coast along on the Titans rep while using back bench talent. If that's good enough for adequate sales, then they are probably making the right business decision. But they won't be getting money from me for that kind of quality.

[COMIC GEEK]

pretty close of a poll. But fans join here all the time, it will be interesting to see if #'s change after issue #1

[David O Burcham]

But the guy who made Oliver Queen is and was "Mike Grell".

Don't you mean "Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams"?

;) :D


OH... Titans... right...

Whenever the discussion of Wolfman and Perez's New Teen Titans comes up, some people like to throw out that they were nothing more than DC trying to ape the Uncanny X-Men. Reading the Titans/X-Men crossover will show just how wrong that opinion is. If anything, the New Teen Titans were the Fantastic Four of the DCU.

Dick Grayson, Donna Troy, Wally West, Garfield Logan, Princess Koriand'r and Raven are not a super-hero team. They are a family.

Reed & Sue Richards, Johnny Storm and Ben Grimm are THE Fantastic Four. Any attempt to put another character in the mix turns the FF into just another team. Even though I liked She-Hulk, Crystal and Sharon Ventura in the Fantastic Four, it wasn't THE Fantastic Four.

Jericho, Crystal, Red Star, Pantha, and even Roy Harper were all Titans, but they weren't the Titanic Seven. The only character that could even be considered a member of the Titanic Seven family would be Terra. That is why her fate in "the Judas Contract" really struck a nerve with fans at the time. Terra didn't just become a member on a team... she was taken in as a member of a family.

A family she betrayed.

There is no valid reason why these seven characters should NOT remain a team until the characters become old and retire. These seven belong together just as much as Reed, Sue, Johnny and Ben do.

That being said...

The Fantastic Four have had some pretty horrible creative teams. I didn't buy Fantastic Four when those teams were on the book. I'm going to read the first issue of Titans. But if Winnick and Churchill don't sell me on it immmediately, I'll drop it in a heartbeat. Even if it does star my seven favorite DC characters.

[Rumor33]

Meh...not sure. I don't hate Winick enough to drop GA/BC (despise the sin that is his characterization of Canary)...but part of that is how much I love the art and Titans doesn't really have that going for it.

I'll most likely buy at least the first few issues to see if I can get into it or not.

[COMIC GEEK]

Don't you mean "Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams"?

;) :D


OH... Titans... right...

Whenever the discussion of Wolfman and Perez's New Teen Titans comes up, some people like to throw out that they were nothing more than DC trying to ape the Uncanny X-Men. Reading the Titans/X-Men crossover will show just how wrong that opinion is. If anything, the New Teen Titans were the Fantastic Four of the DCU.

Dick Grayson, Donna Troy, Wally West, Garfield Logan, Princess Koriand'r and Raven are not a super-hero team. They are a family.

Reed & Sue Richards, Johnny Storm and Ben Grimm are THE Fantastic Four. Any attempt to put another character in the mix turns the FF into just another team. Even though I liked She-Hulk, Crystal and Sharon Ventura in the Fantastic Four, it wasn't THE Fantastic Four.

Jericho, Crystal, Red Star, Pantha, and even Roy Harper were all Titans, but they weren't the Titanic Seven. The only character that could even be considered a member of the Titanic Seven family would be Terra. That is why her fate in "the Judas Contract" really struck a nerve with fans at the time. Terra didn't just become a member on a team... she was taken in as a member of a family.

A family she betrayed.

There is no valid reason why these seven characters should NOT remain a team until the characters become old and retire. These seven belong together just as much as Reed, Sue, Johnny and Ben do.

That being said...

The Fantastic Four have had some pretty horrible creative teams. I didn't buy Fantastic Four when those teams were on the book. I'm going to read the first issue of Titans. But if Winnick and Churchill don't sell me on it immmediately, I'll drop it in a heartbeat. Even if it does star my seven favorite DC characters.


I agree with you 100% and I think you meant, well I know you meant KOLE not crystal. but you had a nice post so we'll let that little mistake slide :)

[Michael P]

Don't you mean "Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams"?

;) :D


OH... Titans... right...

Whenever the discussion of Wolfman and Perez's New Teen Titans comes up, some people like to throw out that they were nothing more than DC trying to ape the Uncanny X-Men. Reading the Titans/X-Men crossover will show just how wrong that opinion is. If anything, the New Teen Titans were the Fantastic Four of the DCU.

Dick Grayson, Donna Troy, Wally West, Garfield Logan, Princess Koriand'r and Raven are not a super-hero team. They are a family.

Reed & Sue Richards, Johnny Storm and Ben Grimm are THE Fantastic Four. Any attempt to put another character in the mix turns the FF into just another team. Even though I liked She-Hulk, Crystal and Sharon Ventura in the Fantastic Four, it wasn't THE Fantastic Four.

Jericho, Crystal, Red Star, Pantha, and even Roy Harper were all Titans, but they weren't the Titanic Seven. The only character that could even be considered a member of the Titanic Seven family would be Terra. That is why her fate in "the Judas Contract" really struck a nerve with fans at the time. Terra didn't just become a member on a team... she was taken in as a member of a family.

A family she betrayed.

There is no valid reason why these seven characters should NOT remain a team until the characters become old and retire. These seven belong together just as much as Reed, Sue, Johnny and Ben do.

That being said...

The Fantastic Four have had some pretty horrible creative teams. I didn't buy Fantastic Four when those teams were on the book. I'm going to read the first issue of Titans. But if Winnick and Churchill don't sell me on it immmediately, I'll drop it in a heartbeat. Even if it does star my seven favorite DC characters.

There's a word that sums up my reaction to this pretty well. It's "granfalloon." You may want to look it up.

[Kage Kisaragi]

But if Winnick and Churchill don't sell me on it immmediately, I'll drop it in a heartbeat. Even if it does star my seven favorite DC characters.

So you're not holding up these titans to some ideal version of what the former titans were right? Cause trying to hold things to certain expectations usually fail.

[COMIC GEEK]

just like 2 more weeks :):)

[Gottaluvit]

just like 2 more weeks :):)

9 days and counting down lol.

[Shellhead]

Soon we can all vote with our dollars in the only poll that matters to DC.

I predict first month sales will be fairly large, with a big dropoff for the second issue, following by a sharp decline until around issue #12, when DC bumps Winick off Titans and gets a new writer. That will cause a modest boost in sales for a couple of months, followed by a more gradual decline.

Winick isn't the only problem here, the line-up of this team is slow-moving continuity wreck. Roy and Dick have had such busy lives that they should be pushing 30, but Gar has regressed to an age where he doesn't mind calling himself Boy, unlike any other teenage male that I've ever met. Kory remains little more than super-powered eye candy, while Donna is a walking vortex of continuity problems. Vic has never developed much as a character since the mid-'80s, and every version of Raven that I've seen in recent years seem completely unrelated to the Raven I remember from the Wolfman/Perez run.

[The Xenos]

Well, more so our comic shops already voted for us when they ordered the book months ago.

[Jack Zodiac]

Most places take preorders. They'll order a certain number of issues "just because," but they tend to keep it as close to their customers' pull lists as possible to maximize their buck. Considering it's a first issue, yeah, a lot of stores probably ordered more "just 'cause" copies, but once they get a bead on what their customers are thinking of the book, then they'll either start ordering more, or in all likelihood, order a lot less.

[COMIC GEEK]

Soon we can all vote with our dollars in the only poll that matters to DC.

I predict first month sales will be fairly large, with a big dropoff for the second issue, following by a sharp decline until around issue #12, when DC bumps Winick off Titans and gets a new writer. That will cause a modest boost in sales for a couple of months, followed by a more gradual decline.

Winick isn't the only problem here, the line-up of this team is slow-moving continuity wreck. Roy and Dick have had such busy lives that they should be pushing 30, but Gar has regressed to an age where he doesn't mind calling himself Boy, unlike any other teenage male that I've ever met. Kory remains little more than super-powered eye candy, while Donna is a walking vortex of continuity problems. Vic has never developed much as a character since the mid-'80s, and every version of Raven that I've seen in recent years seem completely unrelated to the Raven I remember from the Wolfman/Perez run.



and supes and bats should be like 50 blah blah blah

and yes raven does kinda suck now

[David O Burcham]

So you're not holding up these titans to some ideal version of what the former titans were right? Cause trying to hold things to certain expectations usually fail.

The only "ideal" I hold when it comes to comics is my wallet. If I don't like the writing or the art in a comic, why would I spend my money on it? It's not just the new Titans book, either. I have a mortage, insurance, car note, utlities, braces for the rugrats and such to pay. A new comic has only has one chance to convince me to buy it every month.

[David O Burcham]

There's a word that sums up my reaction to this pretty well. It's "granfalloon." You may want to look it up.

So you agree with me that calling these seven Titans a "super-hero team" is a false premise.




(just being cheeky, I knew what you meant.... but I don't consider Vonnegut in discussions of sooper-hero funny books)

[COMIC GEEK]

So you agree with me that calling these seven Titans a "super-hero team" is a false premise.






I dont agree with you. If anything these characters are more of a team than the current jla, jsa, and the outsiders roster.

[COMIC GEEK]

This April Judd Winick is hoping to give comic fans a new reason to Remember the Titans! Taking the classic team from the Marv Wolfman/George Perez New Teen Titans era, Winick is forging a whole new era for the heroes that most modern comic fans grew up reading in the '80s. Nightwing, Donna Troy, Starfire, Cyborg, Raven, Beast Boy, Changeling, Red Arrow and Flash reteam after a tragedy befalls a group of Titans that Cyborg was training. Most Titans fans can't wait to see the new series take form, so, to satisfy your curiosity, we've got Winick on hand to give us some inside information about these Titans getting Together!

Winick is a big fan of the Wolfman/Perez incarnation of the group. He grew up reading these adventures like a lot of us and the stories are still very fresh in his mind. He remembers the quite moments that made this more than a group of characters in costumes, just meeting to go bash the latest bad guys. One of the most memorable moments for Winick was in the pages of New Teen Titans # 39, a story entitled "Crossroads," where Dick Grayson and Wally West gave up their costumed identities of Robin and Kid Flash.

"I really dug the issue where Dick and Wally quit, but they didn't actually quit, which was interesting," Winick said. "Their costumes were empty on the cover, with gloves and belts hanging from the logo, and they were talking away. I thought, 'Dick's not going to be Robin?!' This was before we had comic book press like THE PULSE. There was nothing to check or go into to hear rumors. It didn't exist. You had to stick on the story. Here he was giving up being Robin, but saying, 'I'm not leaving you. I just can't be Robin anymore.' I was really struck by that. He's giving up this persona that meant so much, but I was so hopeful realizing he would become another hero. How exciting was that?! It was such a bittersweet moment. You knew he was coming back as another hero, but you didn't see it coming at all. You didn't think about it. Then, sure enough, he did. Dick gave up being Robin for all the most human reasons and he had such a really hard time doing it. I liked how he asked Kory to help him take off his tunic. It clicked in my brain that it was so hard for him to do, because he would never put this costume on again. He meant it. That was rough, but it was so interesting."

Winick continued, "Right there for me is the epitome of the Wolfman/Perez run. Again, it's not like a fisticuffs thing -- it was just a character giving up a costume. He will still lead the team. He will still be a hero. But he gave up a costume and it was so moving. They created these characters set in bedrock both on a visual and written page. Perez, unlike anyone has ever been able to do since, created characters that were so visually specific that you could always tell who was who. At Donna Troy's Wedding [New Teen Titans # 50], when Wally was standing next to Dick, you knew who each was -- they weren't Ken dolls with interchangeable hair. With these terrific characterizations, I think it's why we all come back to this group. The musical chairs of creation have finally stopped where I get to sit down and write the Titans."

Like Winick mentioned, one of the things that was so integral to the success of the New Teen Titans was that readers knew these characters so intimately in and out of costume. Wolfman and Perez gave us several memorable Day in the Life type tales where we just saw them interacting outside of the "office," so to speak, and living their civilian lives. Winick said he has a few plans like that of his own, but the first won't be a Day in the Life, it will be more like a Night. "After the first arc, issue # 4, I have a story in my mind that is 'Date Night' that's totally not about superheroes," Winick said. "It's utterly about one of those night in the life type stories. I like that. Again, we're on the shoulders of giants and I mean that in a good way. With these characters, you can do stories just like that, which are not about saving the day or what not -- just about their lives, who they are, why they do this. The premise of the book is that it's not about a team, it's about a family."

[COMIC GEEK]

"It gets boring for me too having no personal life shown," Winick continued. "I'm interested in being able to go both ways on it. It will be nice to take a break from the hero bit. Sometimes if you create an arc that's too big, you have to see it through to the end of six issues. For me, where I am right now, I'm less inclined and excited about that idea. I like to wrap up a story sooner and have moments where we can just breathe."



However, breathing easy is going to be tough, especially after the events of the recent Titans East special where several young heroes Cyborg was training were massacred by a mysterious foe with a definite agenda against the Titans. The cover teased, "Who Will Die?" and the answer seemed to be "just about everyone." However it is that tragedy that leads to the original Titans return. "The Titans picks up where we left off many, many months ago," Winick said. "It's basically them dealing with the attack. They're facing an old villain we haven't seen in a long time. By the end of the arc, they decide they want to stay together ... not just as a team, but more like a family. There's no monitor duty. There's no meeting here every Saturday to take on whatever villain pops up. It's more about if Flash has a problem, his friends will come to his aid to help him close the case. From the jump, this is just about them getting together, because they are friends and enjoy each others company. They care about each other."


Although it's been a while since they were actually a team and a lot of these heroes have been through the wringer several times. Winick understands these characters in and out of costume. He gave THE PULSE his thoughts on what makes each tick now, to whet appetites for the April debut of The Titans.

Winick began with Starfire, a character who used to be very naive and innocent, but who has seen some of the worst universes have to offer and come out stronger. "For so long she has been very much like Pollyanna," Winick said. "Now, it's a little unbelievable for her to be so wide-eyed and naive, especially after everything she's been through. That being said, there is a difference between being naive and being hopeful. She's a sweet person still. She's less a babe in the woods. I think it's more about how enormously hopeful, pleasant and sweet she is. That doesn't mean she hasn't seen horrible things and knows the worst in people. I think she's aware of all of that, but still hopes for the best. I like her being a little sweet and a little bit Pollyanna."

Also very sweet is Donna Troy. In the original New Teen Titans she was like the conscious and big sister of the group. She constantly checked on everyone and tried to make sure everyone was on the same page and doing well. Winick said that's not going to change much here. "She's still the big sister of the group," he said. "She's been put through the wringer in a big way, but I don't think it's changed her too much. She is the unspoken leader of the team. Nightwing is the quarterback calling the shots, but she's the coach there to help him call the plays as equals. Red Arrow, Wally, everyone there is really a seasoned pro. They don't take orders from anyone really, but they do defer to Dick to make it work. It's easier for them. That's the nature of their working relationship. Dick calls the shots, they follow. But I think of Donna as right there -- I see her as the equal."

Quarterback isn't a role that Nightwing minds with this group of heroes. "It's the delightful flip side of the Outsiders," Winick said. "One of my friends said I'd been writing Nightwing a long time without really being on the Nightwing book or having him appear too many times in my Batman run. Nightwing likes this. It's basically his call that they remain here and stick together. I think there's two places he likes being the most when he's in costume: fighting alongside these people or fighting alongside the Batman, even as much as they butt heads. Also, the way I see it, when he takes off the costume, he feels like spending time with these people. They know him completely inside and outside of the superhero game. Of course he likes being around them. He likes leading them."


Speaking of Red Arrow and for those curious, he is still in the Justice League. "This isn't a team," Winick said. "It's just him being with his friends. All of these heroes will keep doing what they are doing in their individual titles and other appearances. Beast Boy is still leading the Doom Patrol. Red Arrow is still with the Justice League. In fact we will probably do a JLA crossover at some point. We get to do fun things with this book. The Doom Patrol will be making an appearance too. We're trying to keep the fun here, even with the darkest stuff we come up with to put them against."

Those of you who loved the wise-cracking Gar Logan and thought he could pun with the best of them will be pleased to know that Winick doesn't plan on seriousing up the hero any time soon. "It's nice having an out and out smart ass here," He said. "You don't hear silly tags like someone saying it's out of character for him to do that. Gar can say any joking wise ass thing repeatedly. He gets to crack the jokes. I like him that way. But, that being said, the jokes are only as funny as the drama that will follow along with it. So we're going to get into his head a little more, which will be fun. He's not the kid anymore -- none of them are."

"There's an elephant in the room as far as chronology for all of comics that has been ignored," Winick continued. "We get a little bit of a blessing. Superman and Batman have been in their early '30s for 65 years. Dick Grayson was a child sidekick and now he's like 22. We all read the comics where he's a little boy fighting alongside the Batman and now he's like a senior in college yet Batman's still 34. But, this has allowed us, if the Teen Titans began when the heroes were all just teens and they are all in their early '20s now, to see them grow up from teenage sidekicks to young adults. Some of them have/had children, some of them have had relationships; they all have a true unadulterated history. These characters have truly known each other for years and grew up together."

[COMIC GEEK]

As for Gar's best bud, Victor Stone a.k.a. Cyborg, Winick joked, "It wouldn't be a book if you didn't blow Cyborg up at least once. But, I kind of got it out of the way now [in the pages of Titans East], so we can move on. For me, as a reader and a writer, I feel the tortured man of metal angle has been done to death. There's nothing new there for the moment. I'd like to get into other aspects of him and what makes him tick. He's not in the first arc much, because he got blown up, but with issue four or so, he's back up and around again."

Someone who's up and running, but not exactly as those who only read about her in the pages of the Wolfman/Perez Titans, is Raven. Winick was glad that her character had been changed before he got on board as the writer. "Someone took care of the heavy lifting for us," Winick said. "Raven worked at the time [New Teen Titans # 1], but she's a very hard character to write in a contemporary way. We'll take the update and run with that -- but we won't ignore what has happened before. She is still very much Raven, but with less of an other-worldly feel. I like her tough, without the Goth and scary. I don't think it's necessary .... She's a lot of fun and I enjoy writing her immensely. I like how she was revised."

Raven was revised due to one circumstance and Wally West was changed due to a very different one. His wife and children now affect just about everything that he does in or out of the Flash's costume. "Wally is a family man," Winick said. "He has a lot going on, but I'm glad we have him. We've seen how people around him seem to die, blow up, or be affected by the Speed Force this or that. I'm a little more interested in basically tackling how fun it is to BE Flash. For as serious as The Titans starts with people getting killed or squashed, I want this series to be fun -- a bit of a blast and entertaining."

"We're having a really good time working on this comic," Winick continued.

Those of you missing a certain purple-eyed original Titan are going to have to wait a while longer to see if Garth will make an appearance in these pages. Winick was tight-lipped about any other past or present Titans who might guest star. He said, "As far as anyone else appearing, those are storylines we will tackle a little bit later."

[Shellhead]

I have to admit, Winick talks a good fight in the interview. However, I have had the same reaction while reading interviews with Bendis and Meltzar, and then still hated the actual work they did. And besides, that preview shot of the cover looked very cheesy. I assume that writers still have some influence on cover artwork.

However, I'm extremely annoyed about Raven. I'm not a big fan or anything, but what is the point of having a Raven character if she isn't going to be goth and scary? You might as well have a slow Flash and a Cyborg who doesn't have any artificial parts anymore. It's a pointless reduction of the character into a generic superhero.

[Gottaluvit]

I have to admit, Winick talks a good fight in the interview. However, I have had the same reaction while reading interviews with Bendis and Meltzar, and then still hated the actual work they did. And besides, that preview shot of the cover looked very cheesy. I assume that writers still have some influence on cover artwork.

However, I'm extremely annoyed about Raven. I'm not a big fan or anything, but what is the point of having a Raven character if she isn't going to be goth and scary? You might as well have a slow Flash and a Cyborg who doesn't have any artificial parts anymore. It's a pointless reduction of the character into a generic superhero.


Methinks you misunderstand Raven, or confuse her with the animated one. Raven's not about 'Goth and Scary.' Her dad? Now that's a whole different thing, but she isn't Trigon just like Nightwing isn't dark and forboding like Batman.

[Shellhead]

Methinks you misunderstand Raven, or confuse her with the animated one. Raven's not about 'Goth and Scary.' Her dad? Now that's a whole different thing, but she isn't Trigon just like Nightwing isn't dark and forboding like Batman.

I'm not a fan of the cartoon. And I'm not wrong about Raven. For a long time, she was a slightly sinister-looking figure wearing a billowing dark robe and cloak, wielding mysterious powers and speaking strangely. By speaking strangely, I mean both her formal style of speaking and also the eerie text style used in her word balloons, indicating that her voice was unusual. Raven *is* strange, she was raised by a cult in another dimension. She is not the girl next door, she didn't come from any Earth culture that will be familiar to a normal person anywhere on the planet. So yes, when you have a person who deliberately wears dark clothing, including a hood that conceals much of her features, and speaks in a strange voice, that is spooky.

I admit that Raven is not Goth in the sense of following a certain style of music and fashion, but certainly her style is gothic in the more general sense of the word, in terms of being dark and gloomy. Even her austere face matched that, with her thin, aristocratic features.

Later, Wolfman and Perez changed her personality and look, with a more cheerful disposition and a white costume, and it worked for a while. But subsequent writers brought back the old costume, only modern artists can't be bothered to draw the hood properly, with the beak-like overhang and the shadow obscuring the upper half of her face. And in terms of personality, she has become too generic.

[titanfan]

However, I'm extremely annoyed about Raven. I'm not a big fan or anything, but what is the point of having a Raven character if she isn't going to be goth and scary? You might as well have a slow Flash and a Cyborg who doesn't have any artificial parts anymore. It's a pointless reduction of the character into a generic superhero.

To me, she's more of the pacificist empath. One of the few pacifist superheroes who work. (Of course, it looks like Johns kind of undid that too)

[COMIC GEEK]

since if hasnt been touched upon really yet, Im looking foward to hopefully some reaction amongst the other titans on how shes de aged and all

[Babylon23]

Donna's there, plus there's going to be a Doom Patrol appearance. Looks like I'll definitely be checking out the first few issues.

[COMIC GEEK]

Donna's there, plus there's going to be a Doom Patrol appearance. Looks like I'll definitely be checking out the first few issues.


I hope we see a bit more interaction with karen and mal and the res of the titans.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Donna's there, plus there's going to be a Doom Patrol appearance. Looks like I'll definitely be checking out the first few issues.

I got bets Donna is gonna be having sex with either Dick or Roy in this. Odds are its gonna be Dick. He needs someone so Judd will have him and her doing the deeeeed !!

[The Xenos]

As for the hook ups and drama, like this solicit says,
TITANS #3 written by Judd Winick

Random hook-ups, internal fighting, envy…what's going on with Nightwing, Starfire, Flash, Beast Boy, Raven, Donna and Red Arrow? Can this team get their act together before their mysterious foes reveal themselves?

Well, gee. Judd, you're not on the Real Wolrd anymore. The Teen Titans are not The Real World. Wait.. or are they?

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/7774/titansrealworldcopycopylm2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Methinks you misunderstand Raven, or confuse her with the animated one. Raven's not about 'Goth and Scary.' Her dad? Now that's a whole different thing, but she isn't Trigon just like Nightwing isn't dark and forboding like Batman.

Of course she's not goth. As the cover to her mini series says.. she's emo. -rolleyes-

[COMIC GEEK]

the first few pages look pretty good and its just days away.

Looking foward to it.

heres the link for the preview.

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0804/05/dcfirsts.htm

[Hawkman]

I'm kind of looking forward to this, even though I've never been a huge fan of any of the characters. Or Winick, for that matter (though I'm not a hater, either). First few pages are pretty intriguing, and the art's slick, too. Could be fun.

[Shellhead]

Three-page explosion. That's a lot of decompression, which I despise.

Bondage ninjas. Pass.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

As for the hook ups and drama, like this solicit says,


Well, gee. Judd, you're not on the Real Wolrd anymore. The Teen Titans are not The Real World. Wait.. or are they?

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/7774/titansrealworldcopycopylm2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)



Of course she's not goth. As the cover to her mini series says.. she's emo. -rolleyes-


Thank you Judd Winick. By now your story-beats you do have become a walking punchline to describe your work. Ha ha ha....just when ya thought Winick would do something new he's gonna have Donna Troy , Starfire and Raven bed hoppin with every character he can do.

[Saturn Girl]

I'm not a fan of the cartoon. And I'm not wrong about Raven. For a long time, she was a slightly sinister-looking figure wearing a billowing dark robe and cloak, wielding mysterious powers and speaking strangely. By speaking strangely, I mean both her formal style of speaking and also the eerie text style used in her word balloons, indicating that her voice was unusual. Raven *is* strange, she was raised by a cult in another dimension. She is not the girl next door, she didn't come from any Earth culture that will be familiar to a normal person anywhere on the planet. So yes, when you have a person who deliberately wears dark clothing, including a hood that conceals much of her features, and speaks in a strange voice, that is spooky.

I admit that Raven is not Goth in the sense of following a certain style of music and fashion, but certainly her style is gothic in the more general sense of the word, in terms of being dark and gloomy. Even her austere face matched that, with her thin, aristocratic features.

Later, Wolfman and Perez changed her personality and look, with a more cheerful disposition and a white costume, and it worked for a while. But subsequent writers brought back the old costume, only modern artists can't be bothered to draw the hood properly, with the beak-like overhang and the shadow obscuring the upper half of her face. And in terms of personality, she has become too generic.

I always liked that Raven was spooky, enigmatic, and had a distinctive way of speaking, and it was kind of sad to read Raven #1 and see Marv throw away almost everything that was unique and cool about the character. I don't mind the de-aged body, or going to high school, or the slightly changed powers, but I miss Raven's otherworldliness. I also miss how Perez used to draw her - not like every other busty spandex queen, but angular and lithe. So yes, I agree that over the years she has become too generic.

[COMIC GEEK]

Three-page explosion. That's a lot of decompression, which I despise.

Bondage ninjas. Pass.

bu bye.................

[Lord Trigon]

It says a lot that the most frequent complaint is that someone is revealed to be gay or contracts HIV. How sad are all of you?

The main problem is his writing is just lame. Sex has a place in comics, but not his sniggering adolescent view of it. I fear the day he and Ed Benes work together. And he pulls characterizations out of his ass, utterly ignoring what's come before or going on elsewhere.

I've see this guys work and I like it but god dam it.

okay worse set up: those two working in the teen titans comic and some how Superboy has come back.

[The Xenos]

heres the link for the preview.

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0804/05/dcfirsts.htm

Nightwing tearing apart the American flag. How appropriate. It's the liberal homosexual agenda that Winick writes that is tearing this country apart. See, this is what liberals want to do to America. They want to tear apart family values. They let gay Mexicans cross our border every day. This is why we can't have a liberal like John McCain in the White House.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

So... how's my Rush Limbaugh impersonation?

[COMIC GEEK]

Nightwing tearing apart the American flag. How appropriate. It's the liberal homosexual agenda that Winick writes that is tearing this country apart. See, this is what liberals want to do to America. They want to tear apart family values. They let gay Mexicans cross our border every day. This is why we can't have a liberal like John McCain in the White House.



So... how's my Rush Limbaugh impersonation?


you must also post on the dcmbs :rolleyes:

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Nightwing tearing apart the American flag. How appropriate. It's the liberal homosexual agenda that Winick writes that is tearing this country apart. See, this is what liberals want to do to America. They want to tear apart family values. They let gay Mexicans cross our border every day. This is why we can't have a liberal like John McCain in the White House.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

So... how's my Rush Limbaugh impersonation?

Bah he tore the American Flag into pieces so he can use it as a condom for all the sex he's gonna have in Titans !:biggrin:

[Gottaluvit]

you must also post on the dcmbs :rolleyes:


Lol. And the thread in question on the DC boards has been removed over there. No doubt in an attempt by DC editorial to silence the minority so that Winick and DC editorial can continue their sneaky campaign to usurp the nations leaders and spread "unpatriotic" 'flag-burning' liberal propaganda to those unsuspecting comic book readers that have no idea they are being brainwashed.


Hmmm...and I seem to recall there was some need to warn homosexual's about the error of their ways and the desease bearing lifestyle they lead, because the poster really does love gays and wants them to change...or some such crap.

:rolleyes:

Yeah, that was an interesting thread while it lasted. I think I learned a thing or two...

Or maybe not.

[COMIC GEEK]

2 more days. :)

[Evil Sneak]

Ok, I tried going through this thread to see if my question had been asked and answered, but it was just too much Winnick drama, so I'll just ask the question.

Is this series gonna replace the current Teen Titans book or will it be a companion book?

[Jack Zodiac]

Companion book... I guess... if you can call it that. But no, it won't be replacing the current Teen Titans.

[Ontir]

There are never the right options on these polls.

My answer is:
"I'll pick up an issue, and see what it's about, but that doesn't mean I'll buy #2."

[md62]

Bought the first issue. Writing was OK. The art was some of Churchill's best work. Will I buy # 2? Probably not. Not a big fan of Benitez' art style.

[SeritoNiN]

Don't read DC much since 03/04, they went to hell after that, if you ask me. Having said that, I bought the first issue of Titans # 1 today, more because it was a very small week for me as to books I bought. I'll give it a shot for an issue or two and see where it goes.

I really liked winnicks run on Batman, during the whole red hood fiasco, haven't tried anything else by him, didn't know he was hated so much.

Wait..I did read his first arc of outsiders, which I did not like at all. I'll see where this goes, $3.50 and one book isn't hurtin me.

Wish DC as a whole would get it together. But until they drop Morrison, I'll steer clear of a good portion of their books such as the current batman and the big final crisis event.

[Jeff Cope]

Bought the first issue. Writing was OK. The art was some of Churchill's best work. Will I buy # 2? Probably not. Not a big fan of Benitez' art style.

I just flipped through it. I realize art is subjective, and that I've never ever warmed to Churchill's style...but I found the art to be abysmal. Absolutely horrendous.

Not to mention it was gratuitous. I swear every female in the book must have had breast enhancement surgery.

And the multiple pages of nude Starfire. Please. Just unnecessary.

("no, no...it's character development...in just a few short panels we've established Kori as a free spirit")

Crap.

Jeff

[Jack Zodiac]

I just flipped through it. I realize art is subjective, and that I've never ever warmed to Churchill's style...but I found the art to be abysmal. Absolutely horrendous.

Not to mention it was gratuitous.

Ditto. Flipped through it, saw the usual Churchill art, read a few scenes (good Lord, Winick, that pool scene was just terrible), same old same old.

Anyone else getting sick of Titans teams just facing the same old crap over and over and over again? Johns did it in Teen Titans, now it looks like Winick's pulling the same crap with the new Titans. Nobody's got any original ideas anymore?

[4PointOh]

Newsarama loved it:

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=153043

[Jack Zodiac]

Damn, Matt really went to town on it. I was gonna be gracious and call it "sub-par," but sweet damn.

[Shellhead]

Damn, Matt really went to town on it. I was gonna be gracious and call it "sub-par," but sweet damn.

This paragraph from Matt was great fun:

"The art, on its own, primarily comes across as, well, laughable. Churchill demonstrates competence on occasion, but he’s so in love with the slick-and-shiny ‘90s vibe of exaggerated anatomy that he’s devolved into a diabolical self-parody. The flashpoint of this isn’t three pages of naked Starfire (in which we learn that Tamaranian nipples disappear in shadow), but page 15, in which Donna Troy’s breasts resemble nothing so much as her having been shot in the back with two nuclear missiles. In Ian Churchill’s America, everyone is built like a porn star, from Raven’s high school acquaintances to Nightwing’s masked assailants. The bosoms are so out of control in this book that I’m frankly surprised that Batman wasn’t sporting falsies."

And this one really closed the deal for me:

"Really, kids, this is an Epic Fail. And what kills me is that all of this should have been stopped in editorial. The gaping holes in plot, motivation, and character should have been addressed. The ridiculous art should have been noted (the fact that Starfire’s costume now looks like a parody of the Cockrum Storm outfit alone). The characters set to inherit the mantle of the JLA (and reminder: some have) should come off as tougher . . . . smarter . . . and dare I say, cooler."

[Beast]

Ouch. I was hoping this would be good, because I like the Titans characters but never really read the comics, since I'm not a huge DC fan. I've been reading the regular Teen Titans series since the Kid Devil spotlight issue, I believe that was #42? But this just sounds horrendously bad on all levels.

Maybe I should invest in those black and white reprint volumes of classic Titans instead.

[Jeff Cope]

FYI guys, the review was by Troy Brownfield. The article was posted by Matt.

Jeff

[Gottaluvit]

FYI guys, the review was by Troy Brownfield. The article was posted by Matt.

Jeff

Exactly. And Troy's vitriol against Winick's writing is pretty much a standared when he reveiws the man's work. I don't bother reading his reveiws anymore because they've become tdeeply tempered by personal bias.

I'll read the book and decide for myself whether it's okay or not. And I'll wait the first arc out before I start shooting down the plot etc which is still coming together at the moment.

[DonC]

So, now that the book is out, who's going to talk Comic Geek down off of that ledge? ;)

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Ouch. I was hoping this would be good, because I like the Titans characters but never really read the comics, since I'm not a huge DC fan. I've been reading the regular Teen Titans series since the Kid Devil spotlight issue, I believe that was #42? But this just sounds horrendously bad on all levels.

Maybe I should invest in those black and white reprint volumes of classic Titans instead.

The fact that you just knew....KNEW....there was gonna be nudity at some point or a sex scene with Judd Winick involved shocks no one. I mean jeeze....I'm so waiting to review this down the road . I did say I'd get issue 1# so I can see how quick there is sex or nudity involved...

[Gottaluvit]

The fact that you just knew....KNEW....there was gonna be nudity at some point or a sex scene with Judd Winick involved shocks no one. I mean jeeze....I'm so waiting to review this down the road . I did say I'd get issue 1# so I can see how quick there is sex or nudity involved...

We already know there's nudity. I don't see why nudity is such an issue. Sex, yeah, but sex and nudity aren't the same thing.

[Shellhead]

So, now that the book is out, who's going to talk Comic Geek down off of that ledge? ;)

Why? Is that where he reads his comics one-handed?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

We already know there's nudity. I don't see why nudity is such an issue. Sex, yeah, but sex and nudity aren't the same thing.

It shouldn't be...but its Judd Winick. A good nudity scene can shock readers at some point in a comic. It can leave us suprised . In a Judd Winick comic ya kinda know that there will be a nude scene and there will be SEX !

I wonder if there was any wild sex or nudity in Trials of Shazam that he did ?

[Jack Zodiac]

I don't see why nudity is such an issue.

Because it's used in such a childish way? "I don't know why boobs and cooters are so icky on Earth. I'm gonna let my fly in the face of a twelve year old boy." Grow the !@#$ up, Judd. She may not have been written much better by Beechen, but at least she wore pants around a couple of grade schoolers.

[Beast]

The fact that you just knew....KNEW....there was gonna be nudity at some point or a sex scene with Judd Winick involved shocks no one. I mean jeeze....I'm so waiting to review this down the road . I did say I'd get issue 1# so I can see how quick there is sex or nudity involved...
Given there's a comment on Newsarama that Wally and Gar are naked also, I wonder if there's some sorta Titans Orgy going on in the book. Sheesh. Whoever starts the thread for the issue should include a poll.

"Which classic Titans character will shockingly turn out to be gay?"

or...

"Which classic Titans character will shockingly get HIV?"

My guess for both is Beast Boy.
Now Gar will have to remain in animal form all the time so that his condition doesn't get worse. :tongue:

[Liberty Belle Fan]

When something comes out with the reviews it has it makes me curious to the point of wanting to pick it up. Sometimes the wreckage is fun to read for entertainment value, but overall its depressing to see it released in this way...why should it be so hard when the fans can come up with hundreds of ways in which Titans could be executed..and be cool.

[COMIC GEEK]

I enjoyed it and I thought the art was good. The only thing I didnt like was red arrows mask. Other than that I give this book like an 8 outta 10

[4PointOh]

Exactly. And Troy's vitriol against Winick's writing is pretty much a standared when he reveiws the man's work. I don't bother reading his reveiws anymore because they've become tdeeply tempered by personal bias.

I'll read the book and decide for myself whether it's okay or not. And I'll wait the first arc out before I start shooting down the plot etc which is still coming together at the moment.

In all fairness, Tony does say:

I’ve found things to admire in the writing of Judd Winick before. I think that he’s done some good books. This, though, isn’t one of them.

[Jack Zodiac]

I enjoyed it and I thought the art was good. The only thing I didnt like was red arrows mask. Other than that I give this book like an 8 outta 10

Yeah, what was up with Roy's costume?

In all fairness, Tony does say:

I’ve found things to admire in the writing of Judd Winick before. I think that he’s done some good books. This, though, isn’t one of them.

I haven't been impressed by Winick since Exiles. I've been mildly entertained at times, but not impressed. And I haven't loved his writing since Barry Ween. He can write well, I've seen it, just not recently.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Given there's a comment on Newsarama that Wally and Gar are naked also, I wonder if there's some sorta Titans Orgy going on in the book. Sheesh. Whoever starts the thread for the issue should include a poll.

"Which classic Titans character will shockingly turn out to be gay?"

or...

"Which classic Titans character will shockingly get HIV?"

My guess for both is Beast Boy.
Now Gar will have to remain in animal form all the time so that his condition doesn't get worse. :tongue:

Its so horrific bad. And what makes it worse is the EIC of DC is there like an idiot with his name on the book accepting it. Its like sending a message 'Do the Real World , and you too can write SH-T for DC and have the EIC eat it with a spoon !"

[Beast]

Its so horrific bad. And what makes it worse is the EIC of DC is there like an idiot with his name on the book accepting it. Its like sending a message 'Do the Real World , and you too can write SH-T for DC and have the EIC eat it with a spoon !"
And isn't this the same EIC for DC who cancelled Young Justice, because it wasn't respectful enough to the Titans characters? So sticking them in a horribly written book by Judd Winick with horrible art by Churchll is supposed to be more respectful? I'm not sure, but I think so. Either way... Oooookay.

[Michael P]

And isn't this the same EIC for DC who cancelled Young Justice, because it wasn't respectful enough to the Titans characters?

If he did, that's some weird logic, considering none of these Titans were even in the book. Heck, of the book's whole cast, the only one who had ever been a Titan was Impulse.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

And isn't this the same EIC for DC who cancelled Young Justice, because it wasn't respectful enough to the Titans characters? So sticking them in a horribly written book by Judd Winick with horrible art by Churchll is supposed to be more respectful? I'm not sure, but I think so. Either way... Oooookay.

He of course did score a hit there when he let Johns push them into Teen Titans . And had a team of old/new Titans as we saw. Its just that ...well they at DC felt that if they pushed the old guard into their own book it would work.

Except the new spin-off book doesn't have the writer to make people care and the art is horrible. So 2 negatives are against the series. If DC's not careful the one book being such a lackluster turd could drag the entire franchise down.

[Beast]

He of course did score a hit there when he let Johns push them into Teen Titans . And had a team of old/new Titans as we saw. Its just that ...well they at DC felt that if they pushed the old guard into their own book it would work.

Except the new spin-off book doesn't have the writer to make people care and the art is horrible. So 2 negatives are against the series. If DC's not careful the one book being such a lackluster turd could drag the entire franchise down.
It's kinda sad. The only DC books I've ever been excited for much less even read has been the Titans ones. Teen Titans has been pretty mediocre off and on since I started, but still worth reading. It's improved greatly under McKeever though. But now we've got Winnick with the original Titans. Meh.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

It's kinda sad. The only DC books I've ever been excited for have been the Titans ones. Teen Titans has been pretty mediocre off and on, but still worth reading. It's improved greatly under McKeever though. But now we've got Winnick with the original Titans. Meh.

Peter Tomasi is doing very good on Nightwing currently , if you've read that. New rogues , love interest ....great interplay with Bruce and Tim ....its a hell of a good read. He's also written the JSA into guest members of the book.

In terms of a rising star...I'd say this... Peter Tomasi should be writing TITANS. Scrap Winick....drop him. Tomasi has already rebounded Nightwing. He gets that character. Let him be the new writer in charge.

[Beast]

Peter Tomasi is doing very good on Nightwing currently , if you've read that. New rogues , love interest ....great interplay with Bruce and Tim ....its a hell of a good read. He's also written the JSA into guest members of the book.

In terms of a rising star...I'd say this... Peter Tomasi should be writing TITANS. Scrap Winick....drop him. Tomasi has already rebounded Nightwing. He gets that character. Let him be the new writer in charge.
Haven't been reading that. The appeal to me for Teen Titans and Titans are the team aspects. I'll admit, I actually enjoyed the much maligned Teen Titans cartoon. And then I saw Kid Devil and got intrigued by him and picked up TT #42 for that reason. Then stuck with the book. Otherwise I wouldn't even be reading anything DC, as it's not really my taste normally. Teen Titans: Year One has been great though. They honestly should launch that book like Marvel's X-Men: First Class. In continuity stories that took place off panel. :biggrin:

[Gottaluvit]

In all fairness, Tony does say:

I’ve found things to admire in the writing of Judd Winick before. I think that he’s done some good books. This, though, isn’t one of them.


Grain of salt. He copped some flack for his vitriol before and that comment was an attempt to show his fairness but I've read his reveiws before, so no dice.

[Carlton Donaghe]

I remember when the NEW TEEN TITANS came out back in 1980. Wow, was that a great book! I had just finished completing my collection of the original series (Nick Cardy could DRAW!) and all the sudden here comes George Perez to DC to draw the Teen Titans! Wow!

But that was then and this is now. Dan Didio has got to be one of the worse things that has ever happened to DC Comics (along with Judd Winick). The art in this new book is horrible, the writing is bad, the editor failed at his job... the coloring isn't even any good.

What did they do, sit down and say, "Well, we've ruined the Justice League, now let's ruin the Titans!"

Is Dan Didio secretly working for Marvel?

(Because I'm pretty darn sure Quesada is secretly working for DC!)

[ToxicTeen]

I'm interested since the main cast is the same cast from the 80s New Teen Titans and it's written by Judd Winick who I think is an ok writer. Though I haven't gotten a chance to look at it yet since I usually wait for the trade to come out.

[Jack Zodiac]

Grain of salt. He copped some flack for his vitriol before and that comment was an attempt to show his fairness but I've read his reveiws before, so no dice.

I'd be less inclined to give any kind of credence to his review if he didn't very clearly outline what exactly about the book he disliked. He didn't rave and rant, he deconstructed, and intelligently, despite the sensationalism.

[Hawkman]

OK, I just read it, and my initial reaction is: boring and one of the quickest 40-page reads on memory. Seriously, I couldn't believe I was actually on the last page upon reaching it.

The fact that nothing really happens between the start and that quickly reached end is equally vexing. It's basically, here's a Titan, here's an attacker; now on to the next one! The complete lack of showing any of the fight scenes threw me, although I get the feeling they may be addressed next issue via flashback. Still pretty weak, though, and right now I don't know if I care to stick around to see if those fight scenes make it next ish or not. Obviously everyone made it out unscathed, so what would be the point?

Just a very bland, thin first issue. No matter how #2 shapes up, Winick should have tried to fit some of the second issue's (hopefully) inevitable substance into this one, because I feel what he delivered here was severely lacking, even for a setup. And to charge more for what essentially seems like less makes it all the worse.

[Scott Taylor]

And the multiple pages of nude Starfire. Please. Just unnecessary.

("no, no...it's character development...in just a few short panels we've established Kori as a free spirit")

Crap.

Jeff

Yeah. That bothered me as well. Its sad that the Teen Titans TV series was the best Titans we've seen in 20 years. Its time to let go of the Wolfman team already.

[ForEverAncien]

-Looking at the New Layout of the CBR Forums-

Oh...Titans, yes.

-Staring at the prettie colours-

:biggrin:

[The Xenos]

We already know there's nudity. I don't see why nudity is such an issue. Sex, yeah, but sex and nudity aren't the same thing.

It's not just nudity. It's the total bluntness and blatantness of the nudity. This had all the tact and subtleness of Janet Jackson's boob popping out. (Now, mind you, I hated the reaction from factors like the FCC on that, but the act itself was pretty damn lame.)

Because it's used in such a childish way? "I don't know why boobs and cooters are so icky on Earth. I'm gonna let my fly in the face of a twelve year old boy." Grow the !@#$ up, Judd. She may not have been written much better by Beechen, but at least she wore pants around a couple of grade schoolers.

Well, you said it even better.

"Which classic Titans character will shockingly get HIV?"

My guess for both is Beast Boy.
Now Gar will have to remain in animal form all the time so that his condition doesn't get worse. :tongue:

Ha! That reminds me of a story I thought up in grade school. I thought it was witty and cutting edge sci fi when I was that age. Hmm.. So how long until Judd writes it?

[AirDave]

It's been a long time since the Marv Wolfman - George Perez era and the Titans was a MUST READ comic. As many times as I've flipped through Graduation Day, I still haven't managed to get through it to the end without putting it down. I really enjoyed the three-issue JLA/Titans mini-series. I've checked in on them from time to time, but it was never the same. My heart says I want to pick up every issue. My wallet and my head tell me that its only going to be the first issue. Maybe a trade paperback down the road.

I'm still bummed that Teen Titans Go! got canceled. That was a good read.

[Bloody Thumb]

Wow. How long ago did Titans East come out? It seems like it's been a bit. I had completely forgotten that book even existed until i got to the end and finally saw the End of Titan's East referenced.

[Beast]

Wow. How long ago did Titans East come out? It seems like it's been a bit. I had completely forgotten that book even existed until i got to the end and finally saw the End of Titan's East referenced.
Heyya Bloody Thumb!

It came out in November of 2007. Sorta freakin' ridiculous to make it a Part 1 now.

If they wanted to do that, they should have re-issued it as Titans #0 as a refresher.

[Fatguy]

Eh, I thought it was ok. I actually went in with really low expectations, so that probably helped. I was especially surprised that I didn't loathe the art. Churchill wasn't as bad this issue as I recall him from....everything else. Except his Starfire, she looked odd.

[Binker]

by Nathaniel Ruff (aka Binker on Newsarama, and Nate on BYTB)

TITANS #1

Written by Judd Winick
Art and Cover by Ian Churchill and Norm Rapmund
Variant Cover by Ethan Van Sciver
Edited by Eddie Berganza

PLOT:
A new team of Titans is born in the extra-sized first issue of a new ongoing monthly by Judd Winick! Someone or something is continuing its attack on anyone who's ever been a Titan, including Nightwing, Starfire, Donna Troy, Beast Boy and Raven. You won't want to miss this new startling chapter in Titans history that may forge a new team from the ashes of old, dead friends.

REVIEW:
Very much like another superhero team I love, the Justice League, I love the Teen Titans. I was introduced to the team with the well known animated series from Cartoon Network. Afterwards, I did research on the comic book version that led me to buy the first TPB to Geoff Johns' run. But despite that, I wouldn't start getting the comic book until DC's One Year Later jumping on. Something I thought DC was great on. Now into April of 2008, we are introduce to a new second modern Titans book simply called "Titans" by Judd Winick. According to Winick, he wanted to bring back the classic lineup everyone knew, and it wasn't the '60s lineup but the lineup from "the New Teen Titans" by Marv Wolfman and George Perez from the early-mid '80s. I never read those issues, since George Perez' pre-Wonder Woman artwork hurts my eyes and my head, so having that incarnation of the team in this book gave me the opportunity to read them in a modern book. So with that said and done, here is my first Teen Titans-related review: Titans #1!

First of all, this issue's story arc title has a "part two" on it. To make everyone clear on this: this is a continuation of Titans East (something I didn't buy). Don't worry though; you don't need Titans East (thank god) to understand this at all. The book is a first issue, and first issues start out fresh with a new beginning for anyone and everyone. No difference here. So I'm just letting people know just in case they wondered. Back to the issue.

Before I got this issue, the issue already had its share of reacted responses from those who read it. I heard more good than bad, which was all good for anyone who read those responses. And that stayed with me until I got my hands on it and read it myself. This whole issue reintroduces for old readers, and introduces for new readers, the lineup that is, or actually was, The New Teen Titans. Everyone that are Titans-related, even today, are focused on either in a big way, or even a small way. We do have our main stars: Nightwing, Starfire, Donna Troy, The Flash, Raven, and Beast Boy. Red Arrow is here too, but it seems he is here to help out the Titans rather than join, as well as the now-defeated members of Cyborg's Titan East. Again, you don't need the Titans East to understand this, as what you need to is easy, and presented nicely here: Cyborg is hurt, Hawk & Dove are the same, so is Little Barda, but Power Boy is dead. And who did this is doing the same for the main stars, and that happens to be Raven's father: Trigon! A character made famous during Wolfman and Perez' run, and did appear on the Teen Titans animated series.

Going by what I just said about this issue, it does appear to be a set-up issue. Normally, set-up issues are either exciting or boring, depending on either where in the storyline that issue takes place in, or from the state of that set-up issue story. The set-up story in this first issue of Titans is in the exciting category, and that is helped by Ian Churchill who did the artwork who sadly won't continue on pass the first issue. One complaint that someone might have is that when each of our star Titans get attacked separately, except for Nightwing, we don't see the fights nor learn how they are all resolved. Instead, we see the rest of our cast at the end, who have all survived the attacks. I could agree, but at the same time I wouldn't, on this complaint. On one hand; it would have been great to showcase how each of them handled themselves during those attacks, or even fought their attackers (if there were any). But on another hand, we know from previews that they were going to survive and work together from the end of the first issue onto the next and following, so seeing those fights or how they survived isn't really needed. Because we all knew they were going to be together at the end.

Overall, in my first review to a Titans book, this was a great beginning for the new series. I'm sorry to repeat this, but I will once more: you DON'T need Titans East to understand this, despite having the title of this issue having a "part two" on it. What happens in that special that immediately leads into our series is presented, and written, very easy to understand in this issue. Like many first issues, this is a new start or new beginning, so there are NO problems. Each of our cast of characters were reintroduced, or introduced for new readers, nicely to get them going onto the story. The artwork was so great that I wonder how the art will be starting in issue #2. The artwork is the same as on the covers, and I have no problem with that. But there is always a different story when you see the art from the pages inside. So we'll see. But untimely, Titans #1 was great!

RATING: Yay

Next Issue: The Titans hunt continues!

[Alex Smith]

Ok, this is probably a stupid question. I just started reading the book, nd it says it's "Part 2"

Where is "Part 1"?

[Young Avenger]

Ok, this is probably a stupid question. I just started reading the book, nd it says it's "Part 2"

Where is "Part 1"?

Part 1 is the Titans East Special that was released in November

[Hawkman]

DC really should have considered re-soliciting the Titans East Special a week or so before this issue hit the stands. They could've done like Marvel does on occasion and sold it as a "Director's Cut," with a tag-line of "Prequel to Tians 1!" printed on the cover.

But like Binker said,

you DON'T need Titans East to understand this, despite having the title of this issue having a "part two" on it. What happens in that special that immediately leads into our series is presented, and written, very easy to understand in this issue.

And I agree. I hadn't read the Titans East Special, but I got the gist of it easily enough from what was on the pages here. Numbering it "Part Two", though, was more jarring than it actually being part two. They would've been smarter, in my opinion, had they labeled it "Part One" and used asterisks in reference to the special while showing the dead and incapacitated Titans.

[Sir Tim Drake]

I looked at this issue in the store today and was just appalled by it. The Starfire sequence was a bunch of blatant T&A, indicating a very low level of respect for the character.

I will certainly not be buying this series until after Winick is fired.

[Shellhead]

There was a time when Teen Titans was a top-selling book for DC. There should be something of merit to the Titans concept that a writer could work with, and yet we keep getting failures. If not, maybe their time has passed, and Didio was right to consider killing off Nightwing. My gut instinct says no. But most of the better writers don't seem interested in writing the Titans, Teen or otherwise. It would be nice if DC gave Kurt Busiek, Peter David or even Mark Waid a shot at it, but only if they were actively interested in the concept.

[DonC]

There was a time when Teen Titans was a top-selling book for DC. There should be something of merit to the Titans concept that a writer could work with, and yet we keep getting failures. If not, maybe their time has passed, and Didio was right to consider killing off Nightwing. My gut instinct says no.


Over in his own book, Peter Tomasi is bitch slapping the very idea of killing off Nightwing right now. It's amazing what good writing and fresh ideas can do for a character.

As for Titans, I just couldn't do it. I flipped through the book, but I just couldn't bring myself to put on my pile. My LCS ordered quite a few copies, though, so it'll make it's way in the 50-cent bin. Maybe then. Maybe not.

[COMIC GEEK]

I looked at this issue in the store today and was just appalled by it. The Starfire sequence was a bunch of blatant T&A, indicating a very low level of respect for the character.

I will certainly not be buying this series until after Winick is fired.

why was it very low respect for the character? is she not allowed to sunbathe in the nude?

I enjoyed the issue overall :)

[Jack Zodiac]

why was it very low respect for the character? is she not allowed to sunbathe in the nude?

I think it's pretty pathetic that, while almost everybody else was out living their lives and doing seemingly important things, all Winick could think to do with Starfire was take her clothes off. So, yeah, we get it. She's an alien princess with no concept of or need for shame. She's a lot more than that, though, too.

But honestly, it isn't just this one time. Winick has an absolutely terrible level of maturity when it comes to sexuality and female characters.

Also, Don's right, and whoever else mentioned it earlier in the thread, too. Tomasi's doing great stuff with Nightwing right now. I'd like seeing him, or Peter David like Shellhead suggested, handling these characters; because I really do love this cast, on their own or together, and I wouldn't mind seeing them together again. But not under Winick.

[COMIC GEEK]

I think it's pretty pathetic that, while almost everybody else was out living their lives and doing seemingly important things, all Winick could think to do with Starfire was take her clothes off. So, yeah, we get it. She's an alien princess with no concept of or need for shame. She's a lot more than that, though, too.

But honestly, it isn't just this one time. Winick has an absolutely terrible level of maturity when it comes to sexuality and female characters.

Also, Don's right, and whoever else mentioned it earlier in the thread, too. Tomasi's doing great stuff with Nightwing right now. I'd like seeing him, or Peter David like Shellhead suggested, handling these characters; because I really do love this cast, on their own or together, and I wouldn't mind seeing them together again. But not under Winick.

wasnt wally in the shower and I dropped countdown cause for one donna wasnt doing anything with her "life" in that title either.

say what you will, it wasnt the first time we almost saw kory topless. or naked for that matter.


and nothing was even shown.

Yet folks dont complain when power girls breasts just keep on getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

But yeah its judd so keep bashing the guy.

Im glad im not the only one who like the issue.

bring on #2

[Beast]

wasnt wally in the shower and I dropped countdown cause for one donna wasnt doing anything with her "life" in that title either.

say what you will, it wasnt the first time we almost saw kory topless. or naked for that matter.
So because it was done before, we should keep seeing it over and over again.

Even Storm grew out of walking around naked in Uncanny X-Men back in the day. :tongue:
and nothing was even shown.
Yes, thanks to the magic of comic books. Or more recently Beowulf. :wink: :wink:
Yet folks dont complain when power girls breasts just keep on getting bigger and bigger and bigger.
They don't? Isn't there constant complaints about stuff like that.
So much so that covers have been redone to reduce the size of her bust on a couple of occassions?
But yeah its judd so keep bashing the guy.
Where is bashing? This is simply legitimate criticism. Not just 'It's Winick, so it's bad'.
Im glad im not the only one who like the issue.

bring on #2
It's good that you liked it as well. Everyone has different tastes, nothing wrong with that.

And agreed, bring on #2. Hopefully it's better than #1.

[Jack Zodiac]

say what you will, it wasnt the first time we almost saw kory topless. or naked for that matter.


and nothing was even shown.

Y'know, it'd be one thing if Judd had written in, or Churchill had whipped up some clever art to make it more than just Kory standing there naked with some conveniently impossibly lighting trick to black out her fun parts. But it wasn't. It was just more immature, inartistic sexual garbage from two of the masters.

Yet folks dont complain when power girls breasts just keep on getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

They do, in fact, especially when drawn by people like Turner or Benes.

But yeah its judd so keep bashing the guy.

Im glad im not the only one who like the issue.

bring on #2

As long as he keeps writing crappy, I'll keep callin' 'em like I see 'em. And I'm glad you aren't, either. Maybe the book'll last long enough for someone good to take it over one day.

[COMIC GEEK]

So because it was done before, we should keep seeing it over and over again.



seeing kory in the nude was done like 20 years ago. Just like a trigon storyline.

[DonC]

The complaint, as I read it, is that Kory's nudity wasn't germane to the story. She could have been doing laundry, or shopping with the Baker family and the story would have read the same. She was naked simply because someone (Winick, DiDio, whoever) wanted her to be naked.

[Sir Tim Drake]

why was it very low respect for the character? is she not allowed to sunbathe in the nude?

Not at all. I'm all for Kory sunbathing naked, but the problem is that the only purpose of that scene was to titillate the reader, not to reveal anything about Kory's character. During Marv and George's run, Kory never acted like public nudity was anything special -- it was just something that came naturally to her. When she appeared naked on-panel, or made some reference to being naked, it was always in a tasteful way that also offered insight into her character. A good example is NTT #2, where Kory complains about being required to wear a bikini, and Donna reminds her that on Earth people have to wear clothing.

In this issue, on the other hand, Kory makes a big deal about her nudity -- she said something like "Oh, I know these puritanical Americans have a hang-up about being naked, but I like to feel the sun on my naked body. Oh, and did I mention my body was naked?" Clearly the point is not to tell us anything about Kory, but to draw our attention to Kory's body.

So basically, that scene was pornographic without being intelligent or interesting.

Let us also not forget that Ian Churchill draws women in a very unrealistic, T&A-ish, Liefeldesque way. I think people have already mentioned that in this thread.

[COMIC GEEK]

was wally's scene "pornographic too" I mean he was in the shower and guess what he was naked :eek:

gimme a break people

[Jack Zodiac]

Quit being deliberately obtuse, man.

[Beast]

Not at all. I'm all for Kory sunbathing naked, but the problem is that the only purpose of that scene was to titillate the reader, not to reveal anything about Kory's character. During Marv and George's run, Kory never acted like public nudity was anything special -- it was just something that came naturally to her. When she appeared naked on-panel, or made some reference to being naked, it was always in a tasteful way that also offered insight into her character. A good example is NTT #2, where Kory complains about being required to wear a bikini, and Donna reminds her that on Earth people have to wear clothing.

In this issue, on the other hand, Kory makes a big deal about her nudity -- she said something like "Oh, I know these puritanical Americans have a hang-up about being naked, but I like to feel the sun on my naked body. Oh, and did I mention my body was naked?" Clearly the point is not to tell us anything about Kory, but to draw our attention to Kory's body.

So basically, that scene was pornographic without being intelligent or interesting.

Let us also not forget that Ian Churchill draws women in a very unrealistic, T&A-ish, Liefeldesque way. I think people have already mentioned that in this thread.
Exactly. Like I said.... she was like Storm used to be... not see it as a big deal and wander around that way.

But Jean for the most part was the one to explain to her it's not really appropriate. Much like Donna with Kori.

Storm grew beyond having to toss off her clothes and wander around, because she grew as a character.

Starfire even after all these years seemingly has not. Winnick has made her even more blatent about it.

[WorstThingUS]

was wally's scene "pornographic too" I mean he was in the shower and guess what he was naked :eek:

gimme a break people

Why don't you list the times Wally has been naked, genius? And don't forget to add naked in front of children. And what planet is Wally from? Also, aren't people usually naked in the shower?

[juliankeller]

I, for one, LOVED this book! The Titans are the reason I started reading DC and Judd Winick is the reason I will continue. I have loved Winick since Exiles and Outsiders. Granted, not all of his ventures have been great, as I am finding Green Arrow/Black Canary spotty at best, but I thought Titans was a good read. And, even tho' there was a one-shot opener, this really is the first issue. Give it a try before condemning it after one book. These characters need to grow and change into the young adults they are. They cannot forever by frozen in amber as they were during the halcyon days of Teen Titans. And, I hate to admit it, but I do enjoy Churchill's art. Always have, even during his run on Cable in the 90's. So the female characters have large breasts. I have a newborn infant at home. I need escapism! This book will never be on par with Y:The Last Man or Preacher. Big deal! There is a green dude, a topless alien, and the daughter of the devil. Take it for what it is and have fun!

[Rolltideguy77]

Stop yakkin' about nudity. Stafire has a history of nudity. So what if it was just some t&a for fun! Never quite seen so many grown heterosexual men complain about a nude woman, real or not. :wink: I enjoy Churchill's art as well (grown men have body hair who knew!?). I'm gonna give it five issues and see what happens.

[Jack Zodiac]

Stop yakkin' about nudity. Stafire has a history of nudity. So what if it was just some t&a for fun! Never quite seen so many grown heterosexual men complain about a nude woman, real or not. :wink:

Well, most of us have seen naked women, and we know that there is no physical way for them to look like that. If you keep reading Churchill and Turner and Benes comics, you're gonna be disappointed when you see a real live naked chick.

Also, five issues is six issues more than this book deserves.

[4thHorseman]

*shrugs* I didn't mind the nudity. Just seemed like she was enjoying her time alone. There are plenty of women in the world who don't mind sunbathing topless/naked. And with a woman who's even more open about her nudity doesn't really seem like that big of a problem to me.

[Jack Zodiac]

It isn't, and it shouldn't have been, but Judd made it a big deal in his juvenile monologue. Dr. Comics explained this earlier. Starfire has a history of not adhering to typical social standards because she's from another planet that doesn't view nudity as something inherently sexual and wrong, but when Wolfman and Pérez even broached that subject, they did it with subtlety and nuance. When Judd does it, he does it with a baseball bat in the face that says "she likes showing off her boobies!"

And, again, it's only made worse by Churchill's oversexualized art (ignoring anything about form, here, any other artist could've drawn those scenes the exact same way, and they would've looked better, but the infantile bluntness of it all would still have remained).

[Kid Kamikaze10]

I don't think people are understanding the nudity complaint.

It's not the nudity itself. I mean, it's Starfire, she does stuff like that. It's the story-telling that's the problem.

Judd is as subtle as a jackhammer, and Churchill just tries too hard to oversexualize the situation.

Add that together, and it feels really "90s bad girl" era.


It's all about the structure and execution, aka storytelling and plotting. This title lacks a good portion of both, IMO.

[Pixie_Solanas]

*shrugs* I didn't mind the nudity. Just seemed like she was enjoying her time alone. There are plenty of women in the world who don't mind sunbathing topless/naked. And with a woman who's even more open about her nudity doesn't really seem like that big of a problem to me.

Oh god, you'll get the CBR nudity fascists on here so fast with that one.

"HOW DARE SHE EXPOSE HER OVERINFLATED WOMANLY BITS LIKE THAT! OFFENSIVE!"

[COMIC GEEK]

Why don't you list the times Wally has been naked, genius? And don't forget to add naked in front of children. And what planet is Wally from? Also, aren't people usually naked in the shower?


arent people normally naked when they sunbathe?

and since you dont know you know wally is from earth.

were you complaining when wally was bed hopping when his title first came out too....

:rolleyes:

[MattXG]

I liked issue 1.

I'm on board for the long run.

Who's with me?

[Gottaluvit]

and since you dont know you know wally is from earth....

:rolleyes:

Lol, and as far as I know everyone on earth showers in the nude.

[Gottaluvit]

I liked issue 1.

I'm on board for the long run.

Who's with me?


*Raises hand*

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I liked issue 1.

I'm on board for the long run.

Who's with me?

Issue 1# for now. I can only take so much comedy and bad comics before my brains rot. I'm really tempted to see how bad it can get. Like a "Mystery Science Theator 3000" way while we all make jokes about it.

[Jack Zodiac]

Issue 1# for now. I can only take so much comedy and bad comics before my brains rot. I'm really tempted to see how bad it can get. Like a "Mystery Science Theator 3000" way while we all make jokes about it.

Except it's more expensive and less entertaining.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Except it's more expensive and less entertaining.

I know.....I know. I wish I could get it for free...since DC's torturing us.

[COMIC GEEK]

I know.....I know. I wish I could get it for free...since DC's torturing us.

your talking about countdown right?

[JLA323]

I liked issue 1.

I'm on board for the long run.

Who's with me?


i also thought it was pretty good, ill be picking up #2

[steve2275]

i like joe bs art

[deant]

I bought it and I liked it. Only thing I didnt get was why the story was Part 2. Whats up with that? What is Part 1 in or is it just a misprint?

[COMIC GEEK]

I bought it and I liked it. Only thing I didnt get was why the story was Part 2. Whats up with that? What is Part 1 in or is it just a misprint?


part 1 was the titans east special

[MNM]

So basically, that scene was pornographic without being intelligent or interesting.


Have you ever seen any pornography? Becase lieing in the sun naked does not equal pornagraphic, no matter how much you try and twist that it was.

[COMIC GEEK]

Have you ever seen any pornography? Becase lieing in the sun naked does not equal pornagraphic, no matter how much you try and twist that it was.


I find a trend with this for the most part, for the folks who hate judd's work are saying this was "pornographic" for those who like judds work and the issue in question it seems to be that a character who happened to be home alone at the time was sunbathing in the nude.

who would have thought of someone sunbathing in the nude.

How does judd make these things up? :rolleyes:

[sHayden]

I have never been exposed to Judd Winnick's work except for part of his run on Batman. So I think I can look at this first issue somewhat objectively.

I wasn't horrified by it. Yet I don't see anything fantastic coming from it.
Also, even at the ripe old age of 26 I have my fanboy, cheesecake fantasies. Starfire sits right up there at #1 with She-Hulk..and well, she just wasn't drawn all that well. If you're going to draw her at all, especially nude, give it your all!

[Bob-el]

Can someone explain for me why by the last page Donna's had time to change costume, Gar and Kory have time to put on costumes and Dick still hasn't had time to pull out the pieces of glass stuck in his costume? I don't know if I should applaud the consistency of detail or just consider it stupid and one more distraction.

[deant]

Can someone explain for me why by the last page Donna's had time to change costume, Gar and Kory have time to put on costumes and Dick still hasn't had time to pull out the pieces of glass stuck in his costume? I don't know if I should applaud the consistency of detail or just consider it stupid and one more distraction.

Heh. The thing with the glass in Dick's back and shoulders made me chuckle. I know he might be trying to be macho and all but thats taking it a bit far. Its been like a day man, take 'em out!
I thought it had been a day or two giving them time to freshen up and find each other and the like.

[COMIC GEEK]

Heh. The thing with the glass in Dick's back and shoulders made me chuckle. I know he might be trying to be macho and all but thats taking it a bit far. Its been like a day man, take 'em out!
I thought it had been a day or two giving them time to freshen up and find each other and the like.

I would assume it was the same day within a few hrs

[Sir Tim Drake]

Have you ever seen any pornography? Becase lieing in the sun naked does not equal pornagraphic, no matter how much you try and twist that it was.

Obviously I was using the word pornographic in a broad sense. I meant that the scene in question had no purpose other than arousing the reader's sex instincts.

[COMIC GEEK]

Obviously I was using the word pornographic in a broad sense. I meant that the scene in question had no purpose other than arousing the reader's sex instincts.

no, I THINK your using that word cause everyone else is.

[Kage Kisaragi]

I had no problem with the issue at all other than the fact that yet again a ancient villian is rearing its ugly head. Does anything ever stay dead? You know other than Barry Allen?

As always I thought Ian's work was complimentary, he gets a lot of flak for drawing characters, (especially females) looking very much the same in terms of their faces, but I always appreciated his ability to design looks for his characters that worked enough that you really didn't get the feeling of seeing the same thing twice. Raven looked awesome in her civilian gear, and Judd penning of her dialog and the entire situation she was in was great.

As far as the Kory thing goes, I don't see how anyone can blame Judd for writing that scene the way he did, even before he touched the character her um personality was established, and the side narration of Starfire explained it even more. I don't know how Starfire's powers work but if she says she wants to absorb some sun, then damnit she has the right to. Though to be honest I'm still trying to understand why she needs to stay at Animal mans house. What Dick want put her up in a hotel until she starts modeling or something again? Wasn't she get a pay check from when she was working as a mentor to the Titans? I'm pretty sure she should still have some money from her modeling days. Why can't she do that again? She can't be to broke cause she doesn't look like shes un-groomed or starving. If Kory is as open and uh carefree when it comes to her sexuality sun bathing is hardly the epitome of what she might do. Hell I thought she was showing restraint just doing it when no one was home.

I said it way back when, Power Boy is so gonna die. I like that Ian was the one who drew the murder to, I was kind of shocked at first back in Titan's east, but then I remembered I actually wanted him to die the minute he appeared in Supergirl, the reasoning was that I felt he was brought on way to soon to be taken seriously. I knew everyone else would live, but considering the little history PB had before this, I knew that his chances to exist as a permanent main stay in the DC was few or nonexistent.

As to why Nightwing probably didn't have time to change, simple. It was all in the same day and he was on his way to already change and lay down (at least we can assume this.) until he was nearly blown up, that was probably the nearest safe house that had a spare uniform or some civilian clothes. Flash is well, the Flash, he probably could have had sex, eaten a 3 course meal, ran around the world backwards and then gotten dressed and still been early to the gathering. Beast Boy is on a similiar note, I mean his clothes morph with his body. Is he ever truly naked? He was in his pajamas at first but we can assume that after he escaped the room went back to normal or it was contained to only his room so he could eventually grab a spare suit else where. Kory, doubt shes gonna show up naked to the meeting and I'm pretty sure that space slug didn't last more than minute.

Despite the return of Trigon thing, I'm gonna continue reading this. It could have been hella worse and for the most part it was still a lot of fun.

[SeritoNiN]

I was fine with the issue. Just don't care for the return of this villain. :rolleyes: That alone makes me think I'll skip the rest of this arc and wait for the second. Brother blood/ Trigaon, crap is just too much in any titan book.

[Bob-el]

Obviously I was using the word pornographic in a broad sense. I meant that the scene in question had no purpose other than arousing the reader's sex instincts.

I think prurient is the word you really want here. Pandering might fit also. Either would be closer to your intent than pornographic.

[Bob-el]

As to why Nightwing probably didn't have time to change, simple. It was all in the same day and he was on his way to already change and lay down (at least we can assume this.) until he was nearly blown up, that was probably the nearest safe house that had a spare uniform or some civilian clothes. Flash is well, the Flash, he probably could have had sex, eaten a 3 course meal, ran around the world backwards and then gotten dressed and still been early to the gathering. Beast Boy is on a similiar note, I mean his clothes morph with his body. Is he ever truly naked? He was in his pajamas at first but we can assume that after he escaped the room went back to normal or it was contained to only his room so he could eventually grab a spare suit else where. Kory, doubt shes gonna show up naked to the meeting and I'm pretty sure that space slug didn't last more than minute.
.

You could be right about Beast Boy but I'm not sure. I'm under the impression that when he changes back from animal form, he reverts to whatever he was wearing previously. I intentionally didn't mention Flash for the reasons you give. I do believe in the time it took Donna to return to Earth and change costumes, Dick could have taken the time to pull some chunks of glass out of his outfit.
It is a nitpicky point in any case but reflective of the way a lot of the issue isn't carefully written. For example, Kory makes a point that she was sunbathing while the family was away but is still in the all together when the son shows up. She didn't bother to look at a clock?

I am more bothered by the way Vic is torn in two. We were led to believe that the original New Teen Titans were going to reunite but Cyborg gets sidelined in favor of Red Arrow?

It seemed like overkill for Trigon to go after everybody who has ever been a Titan. What did Power Boy ever do to him? Does he think only heroes who have a membership in the Titans would oppose his invasion of this dimension?

That we didn't see how most of the characters dealt with the attacks on them was also annoying. A whole set of Titans including Wonder Girl, Supergirl and Miss Martian have trouble with stuff sprouting from the ground but somehow Red Arrow by himself doesn't? Nightwing and the rest can all handle their attacks but Cyborg can't?

All these questions are answerable. What is annoying is that, by shortcutting the writing of the first issue, most of them aren't. If this is to be the pattern of the mag, it suggests that the writer just can't be bothered to make the details make sense and that is going to be an ongoing distraction from my enjoyment. I'll give it a couple of more issues but it needs to get better quick.