Theory on Morrison's Big Baddie

[Quinnhop]

Not sure if I'm really allowed to make my own thread like this, or if the rules are more structured than on regular forums.

But, that said, I'm thinking that Morrison's ultimate evil is none other than Dr. Arkham.

Yep.

I think he's been using these criminals that Batman's sent him over the years. Like pieces on a chessboard. He's been manipulating them to do whatever needs to be done to Batman.

Why?

Batman interests him. He wants to see how much it takes to break the psyche of the Bat. How far he can be pushed. Where the breaking point is. He's not evil, per se, so much as...curious. A god-complex, maybe? He thinks he has the right to do whatever he wants with Batman's Rogue Gallery, so long as it's in the name of scientific study.

His endgame?

Having Batman in Arkham.

[Jack Zodiac]

That...

...would be a pretty crazy and sick way of explaining how all of these inmates keep escaping and terrorizing Batman. I could definitely see that.

[rZi]

Not a bad theory at all, i kind of think Morrison is the only writter to do something that crazy but make it work.

[Ryan_Jones95]

That would be mental!!!

I've seen a few suggestions as to the possible supervillain and thats the most appealing one so far!

[Froggy]

That...

...would be a pretty crazy and sick way of explaining how all of these inmates keep escaping and terrorizing Batman. I could definitely see that.

co sign

pretty fricking awesomke

[Miss J.]

I'll play Devil's Advocate on this one for kicks...

But wouldn't that take all of the fun out of his current Rogues? All of their intelligence and ingenuity would be lost amidst the [potential] fact Arkham was their prime manipulator.

Are we assuming the criminals don't know this is Arkham's plan, or are they all in on it like some sort of lunatic squad? I get the feeling if all the other baddies knew Arkham's plan, they would rebel. Sure, they all want to 'get' Batman, but they each want the glory individually, which is why they're constantly double and triple crossing each other when they team up.

[Quinnhop]

Evidence?

Not sure if I can really call it evidence or not, but, I was just reading "The Clown at Midnight" -- Morrison's prose issue.

'Who's working with you?' the Batman says again.

The archnemesis sticks to the Fifth but...he blinks repeatedly, the same pattern over and over again, winking a chant in Morse that Batmans first detects then spells out beneath his breath.

It's worth noting that the Joker doesn't begin the Morse code until Batman asks him who he's working with. Then, suddenly, Arkham is brought back to our attention? Coincidence? I think not.

Batman turns to face Jeremiah Arkham, framed in the doorway with a spiky halo of uncombed hair.

'See how he's blinking?' Batman says. 'He's swearing at you, Doctor.'

'What?'

'Morse code.'

'Blinking? In Morse code?' Arkham's haunted features rearrange themselves into a mask of derision. 'May I ask you to leave, Batman? It's a hard enough job here among the criminally insane without you wandering through the halls whenever you feel like a social call.'

Arkham, through the entire exchange, seems very unnerved by Batman's presence. He doesn't want him there to begin with -- from what I can tell -- and, once the Joker starts up the Morse code -- Arkham wants Batman gone.

He doesn't want the Joker to tell Batman anything.

Arkham suppreses a smirk. He expects Batman to wind up here.

And, clearly, he's at least semi-interested in Batman's mentality.

---------------

"If you peak behind the walls of the first issue and the clues in the Joker prose story, it's all building towards this. Every single element of the entire run since I started, if you go back, have been tied into and act as clues towards the identity of this big villain."
--Morrison

So, I went back to the first issue (having already looked into the prose story), and I didn't see much other than the whole "Zur En Arrh" graffiti. Heh...

But it got me thinking about all the connections. We know that "Zur En Arrh" is the Silver Age story where Batman goes and becomes the Superman of some alien planet. The crazy stuff. The kind of stuff that Morrison has decided to explain through the Isolation experiment.

"So it came at the very end of that very strange period, and because it had a certain degree of realism about it – it wasn't that Batman was actually on an alien planet. There weren't any real monsters in it. The guy was hallucinating because he experienced some experiment that was designed to isolate him completely for ten days so his mind begins to generate content."
-- Morrison

Who was in charge of that?

Dr. Simon Hurt, the self-proclaimed "Batman specialist" who had "studied his psychology under pressure". The man who made the Three Ghosts of Batman. The man who the Third Ghost referred to as "Him" -- as Satan -- as the Devil.

"It's all in the files. Hurt's 'research'. Everything you need to know to save your own life and Gotham's future..." explains the Third Ghost.

"See, Doctor Hurt wasn't human."

I don't really know, but... I keep thinking. What if? What if Doctor Hurt is Arkham?

[Froggy]

I'll play Devil's Advocate on this one for kicks...

But wouldn't that take all of the fun out of his current Rogues? All of their intelligence and ingenuity would be lost amidst the [potential] fact Arkham was their prime manipulator.

Are we assuming the criminals don't know this is Arkham's plan, or are they all in on it like some sort of lunatic squad? I get the feeling if all the other baddies knew Arkham's plan, they would rebel. Sure, they all want to 'get' Batman, but they each want the glory individually, which is why they're constantly double and triple crossing each other when they team up.
i'm sure they wouldn't know about it....he'd be manipulating them unbeknownst to them

[Miss J.]

i'm sure they wouldn't know about it....he'd be manipulating them unbeknownst to them

Guess that sort of bums me out. Arkham inevitably being the uber-villain. I guess I stray towards the glamour. Arkham being the major conspiratorist and pupeteer is a little Wizard of Oz-ish.

It also trivializes all of the other villains, which makes my investment in them irrelevant. :(

[Froggy]

Guess that sort of bums me out. Arkham inevitably being the uber-villain. I guess I stray towards the glamour. Arkham being the major conspiratorist and pupeteer is a little Wizard of Oz-ish.

It also trivializes all of the other villains, which makes my investment in them irrelevant. :(

that part DOES suck. fi this isnt waht ahppens.it'd make a n awesome elseworlds though

I understand hwere you're coming from.i'm just one of those folks who this idea hit and made me go "WOAH THATS TRIPPY"

mind you i've only seen dr arkham in ONE issue lmao

[Miss J.]

that part DOES suck. fi this isnt waht ahppens.it'd make a n awesome elseworlds though

Definately. I'd read it and attempt to not let it hurt my feelings or extract my respect for the other baddies.

mind you i've only seen dr arkham in ONE issue lmao

I think i've seen him in three or four and he's always a secondary character. Though I do remember an issue where he allows every single inmate in Arkham loose on Batman (who is an inmate, himself - a plant) all at once with the belief he will be defeated because the mass would be too powerful, thus humbling him in some way. Of course, it doesn't work...

[Froggy]

Definately. I'd read it and attempt to not let it hurt my feelings or extract my respect for the other baddies.



I think i've seen him in three or four and he's always a secondary character. Though I do remember an issue where he allows every single inmate in Arkham loose on Batman (who is an inmate, himself - a plant) all at once with the belief he will be defeated because the mass would be too powerful, thus humbling him in some way. Of course, it doesn't work...

do you remember hat that was?


but yeah..i jsut love bi reveals like this....i'm a sucker for them.......

[Miss J.]

do you remember hat that was?.......

That particular issue is Batman: Shadow of the Bat #3. It's a four(? - didn't quite look to see how many of it I have) issue story about Arkham being remodeled, a secondary plot revolving around Dr. Arkham attempting to understand Zsasz, while Bat's works as a plant pretending to be an inmate. It's actually pretty interesting. It has a lot of Arkham backstory to it.

[Froggy]

That particular issue is Batman: Shadow of the Bat #3. It's a four(? - didn't quite look to see how many of it I have) issue story about Arkham being remodeled, a secondary plot revolving around Dr. Arkham attempting to understand Zsasz, while Bat's works as a plant pretending to be an inmate. It's actually pretty interesting. It has a lot of Arkham backstory to it.

oh, that's rpetty sweet..i'm gonan check that out. Now alwl ehave to do is wait for the issue to come out and see if this is the plot.which it might not be

[Captain Jim]

I'm pretty sure I remember an interview in which Morrison said it's someone who's been in Batman's life since the beginning. Which is why I guessed the Joker.

Another possibility might be Dr. Hugo Strange. They both go all the way back to Batman #1.

Arkham Asylum wasn't invented until the 1970's, IIRC.

[Christopher Cross Is God]

I'm pretty sure I remember an interview in which Morrison said it's someone who's been in Batman's life since the beginning. Which is why I guessed the Joker.

Another possibility might be Dr. Hugo Strange. They both go all the way back to Batman #1.

Arkham Asylum wasn't invented until the 1970's, IIRC.


When Morrison said "Batman's life since the beginning", did he mean since the beginning of when Batman was in comic books (real-time), or the beginning of his life as a crimefighter? (fictional-time)

I just looked it up on wikipedia, and apparently Arkham Asylum, in the DCU, was supposed to have been started in the early 20th century......Therefore, if Morrison doesn't mean real-time beginnings, but rather, fictional (Even retconned over time) beginnings, the thread-starter's theory could fit with Morrison's statement.

[Miss J.]

I'm pretty sure I remember an interview in which Morrison said it's someone who's been in Batman's life since the beginning. Which is why I guessed the Joker.

Another possibility might be Dr. Hugo Strange. They both go all the way back to Batman #1.

The Commissioner actually appears in his debut with him in Detective #27. How crazy would that be? If his main ally became an enemy. Strange actually goes back to Detective #36, before Batman #1, so he's a safe bet.

Guess it depends on what we mean by 'beginning.'

[Captain Jim]

When Morrison said "Batman's life since the beginning", did he mean since the beginning of when Batman was in comic books (real-time), or the beginning of his life as a crimefighter? (fictional-time)

I just looked it up on wikipedia, and apparently Arkham Asylum, in the DCU, was supposed to have been started in the early 20th century......Therefore, if Morrison doesn't mean real-time beginnings, but rather, fictional (Even retconned over time) beginnings, the thread-starter's theory could fit with Morrison's statement.

But since Morrison accepts ALL of Batman's published stories as canon for the current character, how do you explain the fact that Arkham never appears in continuity until so relatively late? I mean, it's not impossible, but I think I'd be very disappointed if we ended up having to imagine Arkham having some kind of a presence in the stories years before he actually appeared.

[Pete26]

It would not be unheard of to have a secondary character become a primary one, particularly one whose backstory could be redeveloped. I am subscribing to Arkham being the one who experimented on Batman earlier...

And a question, why doesn't anyone in Arkham get "cured"? :evilsmile

[dotdotdot]

i really would not be surprised if arkham was the black glove. superb guesswork.

[dotdotdot]

this idea is so great i almost wish i hadn't opened the thread.

[Maestro]

What if it's... ALFRED? :eek:

[BrikHed21]

What if it's... ALFRED? :eek:

...there you go, and Alfred is the one who hired Joe Chill to kill the Wayne's because if the whole family died then we would have gotten all of the money. Chill failed and left Bruce alive. Out of a rage of bitterness Alfred decided to screw with Bruce for his entire life.

I am on board with this one - Alfred did it in the library with the candlestick

[Choppa]

Wasn't something very simliar to this alraedy done in the first arc of SOTB? My money is on some obscure villian from the 50' or 60's.

[Miss J.]

I am on board with this one - Alfred did it in the library with the candlestick

Ditto. Count me in. That would be so screwed up it would put the Batman universe on it's fragile little head. Forget All Star pissing everyone off...wait till Alfred comes clean.

[Leocomix]

If the bad guy is a doctor what about Dr. Thomas Wayne. He's been there since the beginning. He'd have staged his death, gotten his wife killed. Fans wouldn't like it. Noody would approve that storyline...

[Miss J.]

If the bad guy is a doctor what about Dr. Thomas Wayne. He's been there since the beginning. He'd have staged his death, gotten his wife killed. Fans wouldn't like it. Noody would approve that storyline...

They would riot in the streets. Bomb shelters would suddenly become useful again. Air raid warnings would sound. We'd all duck and cover under little wooden desks and wait for the inevitability of napalm...

[BrikHed21]

Well then my vote is Bruce Wayne. He has been in so much shock from his parents being killed and the deprivation chamber that he has been leading a double life. Bruce Wayne is the next Tyler Derdon from Fight Club.

Black Glove/Bruce Wayne: "What is the first rule of the Bat-Cave?"
Batman/Bruce Wayne "Pick up all of your toys?"?
Alfred: "Master Bruce you are speaking to yourself again!"

[Mr.50]

I'm pretty sure I remember an interview in which Morrison said it's someone who's been in Batman's life since the beginning. Which is why I guessed the Joker.

Another possibility might be Dr. Hugo Strange. They both go all the way back to Batman #1.

Arkham Asylum wasn't invented until the 1970's, IIRC.



Goes all the way back to Batman's beginning..... I'll bet its Alfred!!!!! lol

[Pete26]

The Butler is always the villain.:)

[filthysize]

The beginning, eh.

What if Batman is the ultimate villain? Not Bruce Wayne, but Batman. Not a split personality thing either, but rather the manifestation of the idea of a "Bat-Man". A being that came into being the moment Bruce projected his desire for this figure to exist in that dark alley so many years ago. Sort of like Plato's idea of two worlds, right? There's the Batman that we can see, and then there's the "perfect" Batman in the form world. When Bruce saw his parents shot and imagined a force to reconcile justice in his world, he subconsciously invented the "Batman" in this form world, and all this time Bruce has been trying to become it, but of course he can't. Neither could the Three Batmen. There's the suggestion that the arrival of Batman caused the arrival of other costumed freaks and the destruction of Bruce Wayne's normal life. If so, we can say that this is kind of the Other Batman's doing, right? What if this "Batman" persona crossed over into the other world--Bruce Wayne's world--and is making his damages physical, by actually manipulating the villains now? And what if Bruce Wayne is finally... FORCED TO KILL BATMAN ONCE AND FOREVER?!! BATMAN R.I.P!!!!!



...Sorry. I've been smoking.

[nepenthes]

Dr. Arkham was already a villain in Morrisons other great Batman story, Arkham Asylum. I kinda doubt he'll pull that one again.

I've read a few theories about the The Black Glove being Batmans 'Id' or his repressed dark side or an aspect of his psyche existing in a seperate dimension (or perhaps even another plane of illusionory existance!- wow) and honestly, I'm quite unimpressed. I don't think you could ask for a more predicitable, boring, overdone device than that.

My guess; the Black Glove is.......... Thomas Wayne :eek: :rolleyes:

Also I do think the line from 666 about "taking on a enemy as old as time itself" is probably the closest we are to knowing this villain right now. That and there will definitly be something cosmic or metaphysical going on and it WON'T be imagined or hallucinated.

[MartianBlonde]

What if it's... ALFRED? :eek:

You're all late to the party (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=6517576&postcount=26), :D

[havokeff]

Well Hush went all the way back to before Bruce became Batman.

Who's to say that Tom and Martha didn't have another son... or daughter. Or perhaps Martha had a child BEFORE she married Thomas.

It will not be Alfred or Commissioner Gordon. At least not from this Earth. Remember there are some exceptions of other Earth characters that have been in the mainstream since IC and COIE.

[Jermyn]

You know who I think it is? The very first supervillain Batman ever faced, Doctor Death.

[Netley]

The beginning, eh.

What if Batman is the ultimate villain? Not Bruce Wayne, but Batman. Not a split personality thing either, but rather the manifestation of the idea of a "Bat-Man". A being that came into being the moment Bruce projected his desire for this figure to exist in that dark alley so many years ago. Sort of like Plato's idea of two worlds, right? There's the Batman that we can see, and then there's the "perfect" Batman in the form world. When Bruce saw his parents shot and imagined a force to reconcile justice in his world, he subconsciously invented the "Batman" in this form world, and all this time Bruce has been trying to become it, but of course he can't. Neither could the Three Batmen. There's the suggestion that the arrival of Batman caused the arrival of other costumed freaks and the destruction of Bruce Wayne's normal life. If so, we can say that this is kind of the Other Batman's doing, right? What if this "Batman" persona crossed over into the other world--Bruce Wayne's world--and is making his damages physical, by actually manipulating the villains now? And what if Bruce Wayne is finally... FORCED TO KILL BATMAN ONCE AND FOREVER?!! BATMAN R.I.P!!!!!



...Sorry. I've been smoking.

Dude, that is a pretty damn good idea!!!

[Earl of the RCs]

Maybe its Aunt Harriet

[Mr.50]

I vote for Dr. Death too!

[Miss J.]

You know who I think it is? The very first supervillain Batman ever faced, Doctor Death.

I totally saw this the other day and thought...if we're gonna go back...I mean WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY back....Dr. Death would be hysterically awesome.

But I didn't say anything. Now I have to ride your coattails...

[Earl of the RCs]

Yeah, but Doctor death was a lacke of Black Mask's in War Games and one of the Scientists on Oolong Island in 52; niether of which things seam like the actions of Batmans unknown ultimate shadowy nemesis mastermind villain type guy.

[BrikHed21]

You know who I think it is? The very first supervillain Batman ever faced, Doctor Death.

Doctor Death - Doctor Hurt, sounds like they could have gone to the same medical school, I am on board with this one (that is if it can't be psycho Alfred the glue sniffing butler).

[Jeff O.]

If the bad guy is a doctor what about Dr. Thomas Wayne. He's been there since the beginning. He'd have staged his death, gotten his wife killed. Fans wouldn't like it. Noody would approve that storyline...


They would riot in the streets. Bomb shelters would suddenly become useful again. Air raid warnings would sound. We'd all duck and cover under little wooden desks and wait for the inevitability of napalm...



My guess; the Black Glove is.......... Thomas Wayne :eek: :rolleyes:

:eek: That's basically already been done. In the Elseworlds "shock ending" of

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E



Michael Uslan's BATMAN: DETECTIVE No. 27 (http://www.milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=fullsize&issue=08126508555%201). And before we encounter the still alive and crazy Thomas Wayne in that book, Bruce has his doubts about Alfred's motives in the story, too. In this "timeline" where Bruce becomes a master detective without donning a costume, The Waynes were approached by a team of Joe Chill and Jack Napier on the night Martha's life was "sacrificed" and Thomas's death was faked.




E
N
D

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

[stealthwise]

Well then my vote is Bruce Wayne. He has been in so much shock from his parents being killed and the deprivation chamber that he has been leading a double life. Bruce Wayne is the next Tyler Derdon from Fight Club.

Black Glove/Bruce Wayne: "What is the first rule of the Bat-Cave?"
Batman/Bruce Wayne "Pick up all of your toys?"?
Alfred: "Master Bruce you are speaking to yourself again!"

That was pretty much done in The Untold Legend of the Bat-Man.

[BrikHed21]

That was pretty much done in The Untold Legend of the Bat-Man.

Never read that one but thanks - I actually have agreed with just about every option thrown out there for no particular reason. I am just excited to see this type of intrigue and discussion versus the normal I hate the book I love the book that most threads become.

[Jeff O.]

What if it's... ALFRED? :eek:

...there you go, and Alfred is the one who hired Joe Chill to kill the Wayne's because if the whole family died then we would have gotten all of the money. Chill failed and left Bruce alive. Out of a rage of bitterness Alfred decided to screw with Bruce for his entire life.

I am on board with this one - Alfred did it in the library with the candlestick

Ditto. Count me in. That would be so screwed up it would put the Batman universe on it's fragile little head. Forget All Star pissing everyone off...wait till Alfred comes clean.

Goes all the way back to Batman's beginning..... I'll bet its Alfred!!!!! lol

The Butler is always the villain.:)

Come on guys, it's obviously...Alfred! He's being manipulating Bruce from the start, and now he's going to finish him off.

No, I don't seriously believe this, but I think I'd find it kind of cool.

It will not be Alfred or Commissioner Gordon. At least not from this Earth. Remember there are some exceptions of other Earth characters that have been in the mainstream since IC and COIE.

If it is Alfred -- and all of Batman's adventures are back in continuity in one way or another -- then I suspect Alfred did die once (when Master Dick was still Robin) and came back as The Outsider -- "Batman's most fantastic and formidable foe...!" (http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/87/400/87_4_000340.jpg).

Perhaps The Outsider persona has gradually been coming to the surface of Alfred's psyche yet again, whether or not there has been a physical transformation this time around. Alfred might unconsciously have started to recall his own death and dark rebirth upon the pain of seeing Master Jason coming back from the dead and doing evil. (Even though I wish Jason Todd never came back and still hope one day it will be said it's not the "real" Jason.)

Maybe Alfred, conscious of his own resurrection and Outsider alter ego, hoped his own cures in the past could somehow lead to a "cure" for the resurrected Jason's tormented mind. Only The Outsider took over Alfred fully before he found the answer he nobly sought.

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/87/400/87_4_000356.jpg

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/2213/400/2213_4_13.jpg

[OverMaster]

And a question, why doesn't anyone in Arkham get "cured"? :evilsmile

Amygdala, Riddler and Harley Quinn were all cured last time I checked. Of course, that is unlikely to last in the last two cases...

[OverMaster]

And you all are overlooking the obvious. It's either...

1) The obese bad guy in Detective Comics 27's 'The Case of the Chemical Syndicate', after patiently waiting almost 70 years and faking his death at the end of that story, or...

2) Fools! All of you putting the blame on poor Thomas Wayne... and ignoring the harpy who manipulated both his life and Bruce's, while playing the clueless wallflower role! Martha Wayne! That is what she counts on! It has to be her! In coallition with the fat bad guy! Eat your heart out, Sherlocks!

[Captain Jim]

Hmm, if you look at people who were there from the beginning of Batman's current history, not necessarily from the beginning of the comic book, how about Leslie Thompkins? As whacky as they made her in War Games, anything is possible. (It was actually all the Alfred speculation that made me think of this.)

[BrikHed21]

Hmm, if you look at people who were there from the beginning of Batman's current history, not necessarily from the beginning of the comic book, how about Leslie Thompkins? As whacky as they made her in War Games, anything is possible. (It was actually all the Alfred speculation that made me think of this.)

Didn't she just make an appearance in Gotham Underground after Dick got shot? I have not gotten to read the issue yet, but believe somebody mentioned this to me. I like the wackiness of the idea but I just don't know about her being the one.

[Batsmorrison]

Hi everyone,

Actually, I'm very intriqued by the idea of Arkham being the "Man behind the curtain." It certainly would answer why all the inmates make it out everytime just like it seems when they get locked in. As a man of psychology, I think it would be most in character for Arkham to be completely curious of Batman. I mean the most sane person would have to wonder what drives Batman to do what he does. Now of course we all know that people like Arkham don't just want to know what makes you tick. He wants to take the clock apart and rebuild it. I for one would be in complete agreement that this would make a very compelling story. Although the Hugo Strange possibility is just as well, perhaps he's been working with Arkham. As long as it's not Joker, I'll be fine. What do yall think?

[Jared_Humpherys]

Not sure if I'm really allowed to make my own thread like this, or if the rules are more structured than on regular forums.

But, that said, I'm thinking that Morrison's ultimate evil is none other than Dr. Arkham.

Yep.

I think he's been using these criminals that Batman's sent him over the years. Like pieces on a chessboard. He's been manipulating them to do whatever needs to be done to Batman.

Why?

Batman interests him. He wants to see how much it takes to break the psyche of the Bat. How far he can be pushed. Where the breaking point is. He's not evil, per se, so much as...curious. A god-complex, maybe? He thinks he has the right to do whatever he wants with Batman's Rogue Gallery, so long as it's in the name of scientific study.

His endgame?

Having Batman in Arkham.

I really like this idea, especially the fact that it ties to Morrison's "Arkham Asylum" tpb.

[sir_snikt'alot]

its probably hush,hes been in bruce's life from the start since they where best buddies as kids.

[TheAmazingSpidey]

It's Alfred, because he's a Skrull.





"Alfred? Could you whip me up some wheatcakes, maybe?"
(Bruce leaves the room)
"Make you wheatcakes, 'master' Bruce? I think not! The only wheatcakes I'll be making, meatbag, are wheatcakes of DOOOM!"
"What, Alfred?"
"Er--ah--ah--ah, nothing, master Bruce! L-let me get you those wheatcakes!"

[Choppa]

Didn't she just make an appearance in Gotham Underground after Dick got shot? I have not gotten to read the issue yet, but believe somebody mentioned this to me. I like the wackiness of the idea but I just don't know about her being the one.

Yeah but it might have been imagined, it hasn't been explained yet.