Batman Creativity Dead?

[the-wolf]

I've had this on my mind for a long time now. When was the last time a real modern Batman classic done? You know, something that even non-Batman readers will go pick up just because of the quality of the story or the hype surrounding it.

The last really hyped supposed-to-be classic was Hush, but by most people's standards it never really went beyond more than a "good read."

Take a look at the TPB list in this forum. Look at when all those awesome stories were written. With little exception, they were almost all in the 80's and a few in the very early 90's.

Individual tastes vary of course, but I ask you; where is the next Year One, The Killing Joke, The Dark Knight Returns, Son of the Demon, The Cult, Night Cries, etc.?

[rZi]

I've had this on my mind for a long time now. When was the last time a real modern Batman classic done? You know, something that even non-Batman readers will go pick up just because of the quality of the story or the hype surrounding it.

The last really hyped supposed-to-be classic was Hush, but by most people's standards it never really went beyond more than a "good read."

Take a look at the TPB list in this forum. Look at when all those awesome stories were written. With little exception, they were almost all in the 80's and a few in the very early 90's.

Individual tastes vary of course, but I ask you; where is the next Year One, The Killing Joke, The Dark Knight Returns, Son of the Demon, The Cult, Night Cries, etc.?

Ive always been a batman fan....but im very "off and on" with DC...i'll read alot of supes/bats for a while...then dislike the direction and take months out away from the books then come back. For me Hush got me interested in bats again, and i really enjoyed it too but i do agree with you that it is general considered a "ok-read" as apose to a iconic classic such as the Killing Joke.

I do however think that his creativity isn't dead...and that a writter will make a modern day classic stories soon, hell it could even be Batman R.I.P you just cannot predict these kind of things.

[Teth-Diego]

the last classic story I remember was No Man's Land.
or maybe that was just the best bat-crossover ever. either or.

Last classic story In the vein you're talking about, I'll enter last christmas Detective comics (i forget the issue number). The one where Joker takes Robin on a ride through the city. but that one didnt really have batman in it.

[Comicbookfan]

I Love Batman when Batman is done right man its perfect comic book reading. just wish DC would End all these Events and just get some direction especially on the Bat Books. It may not bee a popular idea but i just keep thinking back to the Daredevil Re-launch Marvel had with Kevin Smith and Joe Quesada. That re-launch help give the character some direction and focus to the stories that was missing plus it helped lead the way for some modern classic DD stories. I see Batman in that same Noir Pulp vain as DD and man a re-launch with some right Creative team on it on the BATMAN tittle would really just i think give DC that shot in the arm it needs. Keep Detective in the way its going Paul Dinni is doing great work and set the tone for the book its great and its the legacy book like Action comics those books should reach 1,0000 issues if you know what i mean. But Batman needs a Daredevil type make over I'm telling you fans will eat it up.

[ZT4]

I've had this on my mind for a long time now. When was the last time a real modern Batman classic done? You know, something that even non-Batman readers will go pick up just because of the quality of the story or the hype surrounding it.

No Man's Land and Morrison's run. Easily.

[the-wolf]

No Man's Land and Morrison's run. Easily.

No Man's Land was good, but I wouldn't call it a classic. It also falls more under the banner of an "event." A well-done one, but I'm thinking more along the lines of something that can fit into one volume.

[BlueOrange25]

Being fair, those kind of stories don't come along all that often anyway. With a character like Batman, it's just a matter of being patient. Paul Dini is doing a good job on Detective, and Grant Morrison has been pretty good on his run too.

[OverMaster]

Being fair, those kind of stories don't come along all that often anyway.

Exactly. And other characters like Spider-Man or Wonder Woman have remained for far longer now without a new really classic, iconic story to their name.

[jackups]

just wish DC would End all these Events

isnt this going to be the effect of final crisis , the last crisis of teh DCU to get character how dc want them and set them up for gd stories,

[Miss J.]

I kind of get the impression that these "iconic and classic" stories that come from writers like Morrison, Loeb, and Moore really keep readers from wanting to transcend those plots and leave them behind in order to appreciate new writing. It's like constantly comparing a new boyfriend w/ your ex all the time. It's a recipe for dissapointment, though I admit it's hard to erase those old stories and look through fresh eyes, but come on. There's some great new writers out there, but they have to compete with readers who constantly say "yea, they're good, but it's not 'Year One'/'The Killing Joke'/'Arkham Asylum'/'fill-in-your-fave-here'."

Personally, I loved Green's Batman Confidential story arc that offered a new backstory for the Joker because it was fresh and new (and long overdue), but he has to compete with die-hard devotion to the Killing Joke. People who adore it won't let the story go, so guys like Green are rendered irrelevant to those readers just because he's tackling something that 'strays'...but that's just my take on it...

[Sean Whitmore]

isnt this going to be the effect of final crisis , the last crisis of teh DCU to get character how dc want them and set them up for gd stories,

Yep, maybe tenth time will be the charm.


SEAN

[the goddamn batman]

Personally, I loved Green's Batman Confidential story arc that offered a new backstory for the Joker because it was fresh and new (and long overdue), but he has to compete with die-hard devotion to the Killing Joke. People who adore it won't let the story go, so guys like Green are rendered irrelevant to those readers just because he's tackling something that 'strays'...but that's just my take on it...

Those people are stupid. Seriously. The whole point of The Killing Joke's origin is that it isn't a set origin. All Green's story (which I didn't care for myself) offers is another POSSIBLE origin.

Or something like that... Granted, I'm not super keen on TKJ myself.

[Miss J.]

Those people are stupid. Seriously.

Absolutely agreed on that. Ditto on TKJ. Can't say how many times I've gotten into Batman conversations in real world time and had someone ask me if I've read it...It's like Zepp's Stairway to Heaven. Seriously, they have a million other songs that kick Stairway's ass all over town, but why THAT ONE? But it's the same thing here...someone grabs a hold of it, tells someone else it's amazing and it takes off.

But I often wonder whether something is really great because it is in fact pure awesome-ness from the depths of awesome, or if it's just people dry-humping something cause someone else told them it was great and a sick game of telephone ensued...

[the goddamn batman]

I think at the time it was another book like Arkham or DKR that took Batman to a new level of adult seriousness. That and there's that whole "Alan Moore" thing.

But, I prefer my Joker without an origin... even if it's not an absolute one. I prefer my Babs not crippled. She's always Bat-Girl to me.

Bollands art is amazing, though. I just don't find the story that engaing, really. For Alan Moore it's pretty sub-par. I mean, it doesn't really say anything about anything. It simply states that 'one bad day' can change everything. And while, sure, I suppose it can, it's more 'if you let it' in my book. I've had some absolutely terrible days in my life, but I didn't go to some extreme as a result of it... well, except extremely drunk.:D

I guess I sort of enjoy the paralell it tried to draw between Batman and Joker, but I also didn't like it.

I dunno... it's not bad, it just isn't great.

[the-wolf]

TKJ was a well-told story. What makes it still stand up today is the fact that it was probably the most Mature Reader Batman story ever told at the time. That and the fact that Barbara Gordon got shot and it became canon.

[PLEDGE]

I kind of get the impression that these "iconic and classic" stories that come from writers like Morrison, Loeb, and Moore really keep readers from wanting to transcend those plots and leave them behind in order to appreciate new writing. It's like constantly comparing a new boyfriend w/ your ex all the time. It's a recipe for dissapointment, though I admit it's hard to erase those old stories and look through fresh eyes, but come on. There's some great new writers out there, but they have to compete with readers who constantly say "yea, they're good, but it's not 'Year One'/'The Killing Joke'/'Arkham Asylum'/'fill-in-your-fave-here'."

Personally, I loved Green's Batman Confidential story arc that offered a new backstory for the Joker because it was fresh and new (and long overdue), but he has to compete with die-hard devotion to the Killing Joke. People who adore it won't let the story go, so guys like Green are rendered irrelevant to those readers just because he's tackling something that 'strays'...but that's just my take on it...

real talk. this is the case with many things, not just comics. our previous experiences wont allow us to move forward and appreciate the new.

[Libaax]

I agree with the thread maker, the last Batman storyline i would call classic was in the early 90's or mid 90's.

The Cult,Knightfall,The Long Halloween, Dark Victory being the last classic Bat stories so far.


I dont think its like Miss J is saying that we arent giving new stories a chance. I dont think about classic Batman stories when im reading new ones.

I hope for new great Batman stories alot more of them in the near future.

[the goddamn batman]

this is the case with many things, not just comics. our previous experiences wont allow us to move forward and appreciate the new.

I think perhaps we've built certain stories up to be untouchable... and now it's hard to even imagine something as good (don't even think about better) Watchmen or DKR.

[stealthwise]

Those people are stupid. Seriously. The whole point of The Killing Joke's origin is that it isn't a set origin. All Green's story (which I didn't care for myself) offers is another POSSIBLE origin.

Or something like that... Granted, I'm not super keen on TKJ myself.

Well, Green's story was very poorly written, for one thing. I'm not a huge fan of The Killing Joke, but it's much better as a story, especially for its time.

[Miss J.]

That and the fact that Barbara Gordon got shot and it became canon.


I get the impression this has just been accepted as part of a 'factual' timeline of events that have happened in the Batman universe.

A Canon is supposed to be bodies of work that are representative of a style, like a literary Canon. They tend to incorporate modern writing trends as well as older influential works, but it doesn't always mean something is great.

Personally, I think Huckleberry Finn is a waste of my time, but that hasn't stopped people from arguing it's a fantastic book simply because it's part of literary canon.

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

I agree, there haven't been any Batman stories creative enough to make non-comics fans sit up and take notice since the late 80s. Dark Victory, Long Halloween, and Hush were great reads, but I don't think would attract new fans to comics.

And btw: don't be dissin' on Stairway to Heaven and Huck Finn!

[Maestro]

All-Star Batman is a modern day classic to me.

[Miss J.]

I agree, there haven't been any Batman stories creative enough to make non-comics fans sit up and take notice since the late 80s.

Maybe the reason non-comic fans even took notice is because the whole Batman franchise was about to die out until a few risky writers changed the entire way people looked at the Batman universe.

Then we have something like All Star, which many dislike with a vengeance because it does now what it did for Batman in the 80s -- it's attempting to change the way we look and think about Batman, and many are rejecting it for that reason.

[Teth-Diego]

All-Star Batman is a modern day classic to me.

I wonder how long before someone ignores the boldened part

[Sean Whitmore]

I wonder how long before someone ignores the boldened part

Hell, All Star is the only answer I can think of as well that fits the OP's criteria:

"Something that even non-Batman readers will go pick up just because of the quality of the story or the hype surrounding it."


SEAN

[Teth-Diego]

hmmm true, true.

I agree with the statement above. I also Really Like All-Star Batman & Robin.

I was just wondering how long before the haters jumped on that comment. there's still time!

[Leocomix]

Batman had more recent classic stories than any other super-hero, probably more than all of them combined.
All the Loeb/Sale series were classics, Grant Morrison is writing classic after classic: Batman and Son.
Also I woulddn't call The Cult and Knightfall classics.

[Alex Dragon]

I think some of the stories labelled as "classic" or whatever are mostly seen that way because the time they were done and the fact they're collected in trade form. If some of those books were done today many fans would see them as "events" that DC is doing to sell books.

Plus, in today's enviornment at DC it's kinda hard to do any work that stands out because so many of the ongoing books are being held hostage to crossovers and event books.

[Alex Dragon]

Batman had more recent classic stories than any other super-hero, probably more than all of them combined.
All the Loeb/Sale series were classics, Grant Morrison is writing classic after classic: Batman and Son.
Also I woulddn't call The Cult and Knightfall classics.

Most fans won't see those books as "classic" until a certain amount of time has passed and they're labelled as such.

[Alex Dragon]

All-Star Batman is a modern day classic to me.

I'm a fan of ALL STAR too. I'm pretty sure when it's all said and done it'll be seen as another "classic" or at least really great Batman story. The problem with ALL STAR is that right now too many fans are focused on the story not being about the Batman they wanted or expected to see. Also that the series is being delayed so much it's hard for it to build momentum. I think when the series is done and fans see what direction Miller is heading and where these characters end up the book will have a lot more positive reaction. But right now too many fans can't get past that this isn't the Batman they think it should be and how often the book comes out.

[OverMaster]

Oh, I'm sure All Star Batman will be a future classic.

In the vein of classic Ed Wood movies. :p

[Miss J.]

But right now too many fans can't get past that this isn't the Batman they think it should be...

Which is exactly my point. Arguing Batman's creativity is dead when there's a fresh and new perspective on the market now that is being rejected because it's fresh and new is why Batman remains stale.

I think in general, readers just prefer a safe and very predictable Batman. Maybe it has something to do w/ our current culture being so erratic and speedy. There's so much going on in our lives, so much change, so much craziness, we're attempting to turn Batman into a safe book you can curl up with in bed at night and put you to sleep instead of downing five Lunesta.

[JayC]

Which is exactly my point. Arguing Batman's creativity is dead when there's a fresh and new perspective on the market now that is being rejected because it's fresh and new is why Batman remains stale.

I think in general, readers just prefer a safe and very predictable Batman. Maybe it has something to do w/ our current culture being so erratic and speedy. There's so much going on in our lives, so much change, so much craziness, we're attempting to turn Batman into a safe book you can curl up with in bed at night and put you to sleep instead of downing five Lunesta.


That's quite a statement. Kudos.

[Sean Whitmore]

Oh, I'm sure All Star Batman will be a future classic.

In the vein of classic Ed Wood movies. :p

Maybe Tim Burton can do a movie tribute to it.

Or would that be just too cyclical?


SEAN

[Miss J.]

Maybe Tim Burton can do a movie tribute to it.

Or would that be just too cyclical?

I think someone like David Lynch could turn that kind of uneasiness into something so revolutionary [in the Batman universe] just the idea would be reviled and protested. Five years from now, it would be worthy of cult worship and would be constant fodder for chat room threads attempting to understand where Lynch was going with it. But it would be brilliantly misunderstood.

[Alex Dragon]

Which is exactly my point. Arguing Batman's creativity is dead when there's a fresh and new perspective on the market now that is being rejected because it's fresh and new is why Batman remains stale.

I think in general, readers just prefer a safe and very predictable Batman. Maybe it has something to do w/ our current culture being so erratic and speedy. There's so much going on in our lives, so much change, so much craziness, we're attempting to turn Batman into a safe book you can curl up with in bed at night and put you to sleep instead of downing five Lunesta.

I totally agree with you. Many fans just want things to stay the same no matter if it's still working or not. I don't think it's because of any of the reasons you mention though, I think many fans are just anal and like being "experts" on a character. They take some sort of pride thinking they know a character inside and out. When the character changes they have a hard time dealing with it. It doesn't matter that the character might be more interesting or makes for better stories all they can see is that the character isn't the same and that automatically makes the story bad.

We see it all the time. If DARK KNIGHT RETURNS came out today it would be getting the same sort of reaction that ALL STAR does. Some people would be whining that "This isn't Batman...", "Miller doesn't know the character...", "Nothing is happening so far in the story..." etc, etc...

When the ULTIMATES came out remember how many fans just simply hated the book because the characters didn't act like the characters in regular Marvel Universe? They claim they weren't "likable". Now years later the ULTIMATES is considered by many to be one of the best things Marvel's done in years. (I know not everyone liked it so please ignore that strong need to let us know if you didn't. That's not the point here...)

So many people claim to hate the supposed "Bat-dick" take on the Batman character but if you look back at the DCU during the so called "Bat-dick" years that version of the Batman has feuled many great stories and made his interactions with other heroes in the DCU so tension filled and memorable. Before that version the character really didn't stand out in any major way in my mind. He was just this guy who was a good detective and fighter who wears a cape and got along with everyone. I my mind that doesn't really make for good drama. I like tha Batman that is cold, calculating and feared by the other heroes in the DCU. It makes for better stories.

[Miss J.]

I totally agree with you. Many fans just want things to stay the same no matter if it's still working or not. I don't think it's because of any of the reasons you mention though, I think many fans are just anal and like being "experts" on a character.

Hadn't considered that reason, too. Good point. This is true of many things we become connected to. Once you feel as though a character is straying from a formula, you can easily feel betrayed, which in turn creates animosity. So if this is the case, no wonder All Star is so disliked.

He was just this guy who was a good detective and fighter who wears a cape and got along with everyone. I my mind that doesn't really make for good drama. I like tha Batman that is cold, calculating and feared by the other heroes in the DCU. It makes for better stories.

It would also be nice to see Batman become a little less 'omniscient.' It seems he figures EVERYTHING out. It would be nice for him to not always know what he's doing. To legitimately screw up. To essentially be human again, which is what I always feel is so nice about him in comparison to so many other super heroes. He's just a guy.

[Damiean Dark]

I see it as DC continuisly putting Batman in worldwide JL situations him fighting superhuman entities justseems stupid sometimes bats is at his best whe he is on hisown taking down the scum in gotham no superman, metahumans ect just batman

[Captain Jim]

I think perhaps we've built certain stories up to be untouchable... and now it's hard to even imagine something as good (don't even think about better) Watchmen or DKR.

I think gd batman may have something here.

I also think Miss J had a good point about Green's Joker origin. Personally, I thought it was a good story (though certainly not a classic). But I was astounded by the number of people who wouldn't give it a chance because they thought it threatened TKJ (which never even claimed to be a definitive origin).

I do NOT think All-Star Batman will be considered a classic at any point. The parallel here is not Dark Knight Returns (which I seem to recall everybody pretty much liked at the time it came out), but rather The Dark Knight Strikes Again, which had the same kind of polarized response on this forum that A-S is presently receiving. And I almost never see it on anybody's list of classic stories anymore.

I think another reason we may not be seeing too many of these classic stories anymore is that most of them appeared in a special format, outside of the monthly comics (Year One being a notable exception). I think that very format tends to draw attention to a story and create excitement. Today DC seems to want to put almost everything bat-related into one or more of the ongoing titles.

[Libaax]

I like how Miss J says if you dont like GM's Batman just cause its new take then you dont want fresh perspective.


Just cause something is new doesnt make it automaticly the best thing ever.....


The part Captain Jim qouted of goddamn batman is why there is no great Bat stories these days. Its not about him and Gotham today. Seeing his strenghts,powers makes its very stupid watching him in cosmic events and JLA type stories.

Batman acting like James Bond that i saw in GM story is the last thing i want to see.

[Captain Jim]

Personally, I've always hated having Batman in the JLA. But I'm in the minority on that one.

[Sean Whitmore]

Personally, I've always hated having Batman in the JLA. But I'm in the minority on that one.

I get it. Batman in the JLA helps the JLA, but it does nothing to help Batman.

I sorta feel the same way about the X-Men and the Marvel Universe.


SEAN

[Miss J.]

I get it. Batman in the JLA helps the JLA, but it does nothing to help Batman.

Unless Batman's sudden leaving of the JLA were a launching pad for some serious drama...then it might make for some interesting storylines and personal introspection.

[Captain Jim]

I get it. Batman in the JLA helps the JLA, but it does nothing to help Batman.


Well, exactly, particularly sales-wise. Or so they imagine, at least.

[Alex Dragon]

It would also be nice to see Batman become a little less 'omniscient.' It seems he figures EVERYTHING out. It would be nice for him to not always know what he's doing. To legitimately screw up. To essentially be human again, which is what I always feel is so nice about him in comparison to so many other super heroes. He's just a guy.

I get what you're saying but that "omniscient" Batman is better for the DCU because you can put that Batman in the JLA or a cosmic sized story and it makes more sense for him to be there. Pre-DKR Batman being there fighting someone like Darkseid seems ridiculous but the current Batman works because he's protrayed as someone who could actually take out Darkseid if the rest of the JLA couldn't. He's that smart and resourceful. The Superman/Batman team-ups seem far less one sided these day because of the same reason. Once apon a time if you asked fans who'd win if Superman went up against Batman and people would say Superman without hesitation. If you ask that same question now many more people would probably say Batman. I think that's a great thing and makes the character far more exciting.

[Alex Dragon]

I think another reason we may not be seeing too many of these classic stories anymore is that most of them appeared in a special format, outside of the monthly comics (Year One being a notable exception). I think that very format tends to draw attention to a story and create excitement. Today DC seems to want to put almost everything bat-related into one or more of the ongoing titles.

There's an upside and a downside to that. The upside is that a creator has a bit more freedom with a character when they don't have to worry about fitting the story they want to tell into the continuity of the ongoing titles. The special formats also allows in many cases for a bit more mature story.

For DC the downside is that in most cases special formats don't cause that many fans to gravitate to the monthly books. Having a big audience on the monthlies is better in the long run for DC than having a special or mini do well. HUSH was orginally supposed to be a mini series but it was decided it would help the Bat-books better if it were done in the BATMAN ongoing. I'm sure after Loeb and Lee left they had a lot of readers who stuck around for awhile and gave the books a boost from where they were before.

[Miss J.]

He's that smart and resourceful.

That doesn't make him a know-it-all. He can't possibly have the kind of time to know about other worlds, other planetary situations before anyone else, regardless of technology or know-how, and still babysit Gotham.

Once apon a time if you asked fans who'd win if Superman went up against Batman and people would say Superman without hesitation. If you ask that same question now many more people would probably say Batman.

That's a little rediculous. Superman could beat anyone -- if he wanted to. That's the only way Batman could ever beat Superman, is if he LET him. His compassion for the Human Race is what keeps him from defeating anyone. I love Batman, but I don't care how resourceful you are. It's not going to escape heat vision, super speed, or his strength.

I think that's a great thing and makes the character far more exciting.

I actually think that's part of what's making him boring. He's just like every other super hero at this stage. He's lost his human element. He doesn't make mistakes so he's predictable. We pick up a story and we know Batman's gonna' figure it out in the end. There's no surprise.

[Just a Shadow]

That's a little rediculous. Superman could beat anyone -- if he wanted to. That's the only way Batman could ever beat Superman, is if he LET him. His compassion for the Human Race is what keeps him from defeating anyone. I love Batman, but I don't care how resourceful you are. It's not going to escape heat vision, super speed, or his strength.


Are you implying that if Superman used his head he'd do something like fly into orbit and throw a mountain on top of Batman, giving Batman absolutely no chance to defend himself? That it is possible for Batman to lose to Superman? My God woman, you speak blasphemy!

The men with torches and pitch forks will be escorting you to you stake for the customary burning.

[mattx110]

Are you implying that if Superman used his head he'd do something like fly into orbit and throw a mountain on top of Batman, giving Batman absolutely no chance to defend himself? That it is possible for Batman to lose to Superman? My God woman, you speak blasphemy!

The men with torches and pitch forks will be escorting you to you stake for the customary burning.
Batman would see it coming, he has satellites up there.

But he still gets kicked around by thugs on tuesday nights.

[Exitmat]

I stopped reading Batman as of the last issue. The book isn't really doing anything more than treading water these days.

[Miss J.]

That it is possible for Batman to lose to Superman? My God woman, you speak blasphemy!

Oh, not just Batman...my blasphemies have yet to begin...:evilsmile

[Agent_Torpor]

I've had this on my mind for a long time now. When was the last time a real modern Batman classic done? You know, something that even non-Batman readers will go pick up just because of the quality of the story or the hype surrounding it.

The last really hyped supposed-to-be classic was Hush, but by most people's standards it never really went beyond more than a "good read."

Take a look at the TPB list in this forum. Look at when all those awesome stories were written. With little exception, they were almost all in the 80's and a few in the very early 90's.

Individual tastes vary of course, but I ask you; where is the next Year One, The Killing Joke, The Dark Knight Returns, Son of the Demon, The Cult, Night Cries, etc.?

Ha ha, never expect a Loeb script to be a classic.

That being said, I think Morrison's run will go down in lore as one of the best when it's all said and done.

[Leocomix]

The premise of the thread is stupid. If it takes time for stories to be classics, then why expect recent ones to be seen as classics. IMO Morrison's recent stories will be seen as classics the same way Arkham Asylum is.

[BrikHed21]

It just takes time to become a classic - and let's face it not a lot of things that came out of the 90's are going to be classic. Personally I think Knightfall is a classic and that is not old. No Man's Land - almost a classic and that is not old. What Morrison is writing now? Maybe a classic but too early to tell. It is good reading for now and that is worth my $2.99 every 4 or 5 weeks.

[Alex Dragon]

It just takes time to become a classic - and let's face it not a lot of things that came out of the 90's are going to be classic. Personally I think Knightfall is a classic and that is not old. No Man's Land - almost a classic and that is not old. What Morrison is writing now? Maybe a classic but too early to tell. It is good reading for now and that is worth my $2.99 every 4 or 5 weeks.

I agree with you. Still I wonder what the people here define as "classic". Is it simply a well done story? Is it based on popularity? Is it an important story that changes the character or the way we see that character? Is it a book that sells well and stays in print? Does it have to do with the creative team doing the story? What defines a "classic"?

Is HUSH a classic?
Is IDENTITY CRISIS a classic?
Is THE CULT a classic?
Is the issue where the Joker killed Robin #2 a classic?
Is the first appearance of the Joker a classic?

[earl]

These are all from the last few years.

I think these were pretty iconic stories.
Matt Wagner's Batman and the Monster Men & Batman and the Mad Monk
Paul Pope's Batman- Year 100
"Snow" storyline in Legends of the Dark Knight.
"Broken City" storyline from Batman.
"Tenses" mini-series.

I think these were some pretty good stories.
Ed Brubaker's storyline w/ Zeiss, Lew Moxon & Deadshot plus also the three parter with the original Green Lantern.
Greg Rucka's Detective run after No Man's Land w/ the two shade coloring were all pretty good.
"Turning Points" mini-series.
"Jekyll and Hyde" mini-series.
"The Gauntlet" one shot (although I think it is a bit older issue), but the follow up dealing with Jason Todd in Nightwing-Year One is also a pretty good read.

Detective has been on a roll other than the Ra's crossover, even the fill in issues on Dini's run have been pretty good. Morrison's run has been pretty good except his Joker issue and the Ra's storyline.

After finally reading Infinite Crisis and 52, I re-read Face the Face and I liked it better than the first time through.

[Alex Dragon]

That doesn't make him a know-it-all. He can't possibly have the kind of time to know about other worlds, other planetary situations before anyone else, regardless of technology or know-how, and still babysit Gotham.

One of his strengths is to be able adapt to any situation and make use of his surroundings and out-think his opponents. That's what he brings to the table. That's why he's feared. Yes, he's a know-it all because that's the character.

That's a little rediculous. Superman could beat anyone -- if he wanted to. That's the only way Batman could ever beat Superman, is if he LET him. His compassion for the Human Race is what keeps him from defeating anyone. I love Batman, but I don't care how resourceful you are. It's not going to escape heat vision, super speed, or his strength.

Theoretically Superman could beat anyone if they went toe to toe but Superman gets outsmarted all the time. If Luthor can constantly give Superman a hard time it stands to reason that Batman could get the upper hand on Superman. He's done it plenty of times. If Batman takes on Superman on Batman's terms Batman will win. More importantly if the story calls for Batman to win...he'll win.

Boy...That was incredibly geeky.


I actually think that's part of what's making him boring. He's just like every other super hero at this stage. He's lost his human element. He doesn't make mistakes so he's predictable. We pick up a story and we know Batman's gonna' figure it out in the end. There's no surprise.

To each his/her own but following that logic there aren't any surprises left in comics because the hero ususally figures things out in the end.

This is one of those things that there isn't a right or wrong answer but different opinions. I can see and understand all your points but I just don't agree with them.

[Miss J.]

I can see and understand all your points but I just don't agree with them.

Then it stands we agree to disagree. Cause I can only geek out on this for so long and I start to lose my feminine mystique. ;)

[Miss J.]

I agree with you. Still I wonder what the people here define as "classic". Is it simply a well done story? Is it based on popularity? Is it an important story that changes the character or the way we see that character? Is it a book that sells well and stays in print? Does it have to do with the creative team doing the story? What defines a "classic"?

"You know, something that even non-Batman readers will go pick up just because of the quality of the story or the hype surrounding it."

The beginning of the thread went something like that. This is sort of what we're attempting to define. Not necessarily 'Classic' as much as 'poignant.' When's the last time a Batman story really gripped your attention and you couldn't stop talking about it to the point you were getting into major discussions with non-regular Batman readers? (Personally, when a non-batman reader friend asks me which Batman they should read first, I always give them the Long Halloween because I think Loeb is a fantastic writer. His grasp of dialogue gets me completely wrapped up in the story and each character has a distinct level of conversation with each other that is particular to them. Wouldn't call it 'classic,' however.)

Hence why All Star came into play. Not really intending it would become a Classic at all, but the hype and discussion surrounding it is definately there to potentially make people stand up and take notice.

[havokeff]

One of his strengths is to be able adapt to any situation and make use of his surroundings and out-think his opponents. That's what he brings to the table. That's why he's feared. Yes, he's a know-it all because that's the character.
Dues Ex is a writers cop out. If that is something you accept then you are part of the problem as to why we don't get better stories in comics. And really what is the point of reading Batman if you know that he is ALWAYS going to get out of any predicament. How fucking boring is that?

Theoretically Superman could beat anyone if they went toe to toe but Superman gets outsmarted all the time. If Luthor can constantly give Superman a hard time it stands to reason that Batman could get the upper hand on Superman. He's done it plenty of times. If Batman takes on Superman on Batman's terms Batman will win. More importantly if the story calls for Batman to win...he'll win.

No, it isn't theory, it is fact. Superman's flaw isn't that his brain is deficient, in fact he has been shown to have far more knowledge than Batman, but his strength is certainly not detective work, despite what most people think, it is that he is too trusting and has a basic inability to comprehend deviousness. And again, no. Batman ever only beats Superman because Superman lets his guard down around Bruce because he absolutely believes that Bruce is good and will do the right thing. Again, Dues Ex or writers fiat is just a cover for bad writing or poor plotting. Oh, and Luthor is one of, if not the, smartest person on the planet. He routinely gives EVERYONE more than they can handle.

To each his/her own but following that logic there aren't any surprises left in comics because the hero ususally figures things out in the end.

This is one of those things that there isn't a right or wrong answer but different opinions. I can see and understand all your points but I just don't agree with them.

You should agree with them. Again, it is people like you that just accept bad story telling that gives us the mundane crap that comics puts out about 80% of the time.
Yes, I understand that comics are monthly and that hero needs to prevail, but if you are going to present your character in a mature fashion as DC does with Batman, then you need to leave the kiddie hero always win stories behind.

[Sean Whitmore]

And really what is the point of reading Batman if you know that he is ALWAYS going to get out of any predicament.

Wanna play a fun game?

Replace Batman in your question with any other hero in serialized fiction.

See? The question still works!


Yes, I understand that comics are monthly and that hero needs to prevail, but if you are going to present your character in a mature fashion as DC does with Batman, then you need to leave the kiddie hero always win stories behind.

Spoiler agrees with you.

And so does Jason Todd, Sarah Essen, Vesper Fairchild, Orpheus, Harold, and Tim's dead-ass parents. And Barbara Gordon and her wheelchair.


SEAN

[nepenthes]

All the Loeb/Sale series were classics, Grant Morrison is writing classic after classic: Batman and Son.
Also I woulddn't call The Cult and Knightfall classics.

Me either. They're top 25 quality sure but put them next to the Great Three and the difference between a classic and a great story becomes quite apparent.


Personally I also find The Long Halloween to be extremely over-rated. It was tedious and mundane the first time and it only gets worse with each reading. Its saving grace is a remarkable and definititive portrayal of Harvey Dent.

Put me in with the "ABSR is a modern classic" camp, absolutely. For one, it's legible to normal people. This is very important; it puts in on a level with Year One, Killing Joke and DKR as being mainstream windows into Batmans comic book lore. Second, ASBR acutely repositions Batman, as all other classics have done. Third, every bugger and their dog are reading it. It's the classic that DC dreamed that Hush would be.

Dini's Joker issue issue and Morrisons 663 have to be single issues classics on a minor level.

Gotham Central deserves a mention here somehow. If you're talking strictly Batman related then the Two-Face, Freeze and Joker stories are all top-notch.

Some people hold Matt Wagners stories in VERY high regard. I don't, but it's a subjective thing more than anything else. I fully understand why some would call them classics.....however with The Man Who Laughs I'm not so forgiving. That was a half-decent story with distinctive art, nothing more. The best thing about it is it made Joker look truly badarse in action once again - nightvision gogles, twin guns blazing, laughing and killing on a room full of SWAT. But I have to wonder about the people who put it in their top 5 of all bat-time or whatever.

[Miss J.]

Gotham Central deserves a mention here somehow. If you're talking strictly Batman related then the Two-Face, Freeze and Joker stories are all top-notch.

I agree. Gotham Central issues were an excellent read for me and was surprised I hadn't heard more about it from other readers. I thought the Joker was spot-on in there. Maniacal, yet portrayed in compeltely intelligent predicaments. Well thought out writing.

[havokeff]

Wanna play a fun game?

Replace Batman in your question with any other hero in serialized fiction.

See? The question still works!

Anakin Skywalker.



Spoiler agrees with you.

And so does Jason Todd, Sarah Essen, Vesper Fairchild, Orpheus, Harold, and Tim's dead-ass parents. And Barbara Gordon and her wheelchair.


SEAN

Cute. Next time why don't you try quoting everything I said. So that your response makes LESS sense. I clearly stated that I get that it is not the case 100% of the time.

P.S. How many of those "deaths" are and will be retconed in some new story... oh wait.

[Sean Whitmore]

Anakin Skywalker.

Hero?


I clearly stated that I get that it is not the case 100% of the time.

And yet you clearly don't, otherwise why whine about it?


SEAN

[Libaax]

I agree. Gotham Central issues were an excellent read for me and was surprised I hadn't heard more about it from other readers. I thought the Joker was spot-on in there. Maniacal, yet portrayed in compeltely intelligent predicaments. Well thought out writing.

ONLY reason i didnt mention Gotham Central is it isnt a Batman comic.

It was one of the best comics i have read in any genre.

I would rate it as high as DKR,Year One,some Hellblazer runs,Sleeper in my favorit DC comics list.

[Alex Dragon]

Dues Ex is a writers cop out. If that is something you accept then you are part of the problem as to why we don't get better stories in comics. And really what is the point of reading Batman if you know that he is ALWAYS going to get out of any predicament. How fucking boring is that?

Following your logic then most people who ever read comics are "the problem". Was there an era of Batman or most superheroes where they weren't able to get out of most predicaments? Did I miss an era of Batman stories where he'd get into a predicament and had to sit around and wait for someone to get him out of it. Batman's success rate of getting himself of a predicament probably isn't any better than most superheroes in general.


No, it isn't theory, it is fact. Superman's flaw isn't that his brain is deficient, in fact he has been shown to have far more knowledge than Batman, but his strength is certainly not detective work, despite what most people think, it is that he is too trusting and has a basic inability to comprehend deviousness. And again, no. Batman ever only beats Superman because Superman lets his guard down around Bruce because he absolutely believes that Bruce is good and will do the right thing. Again, Dues Ex or writers fiat is just a cover for bad writing or poor plotting. Oh, and Luthor is one of, if not the, smartest person on the planet. He routinely gives EVERYONE more than they can handle.

Batman taking out Superman is Batman taking out Superman. To me it doesn't matter if it's because Batman outsmarted him, if Superman is too trusting, if Batman plays dirty, if Superman hold back or if Batman fools Superman with the old "Your shoes laces are untied" trick. The things you named are part of the character. Those are his weaknesses. Those characteristics that get exploited when anyone takes on Superman. Exploiting an opponent's weaknesses is the way people get the best of them whether it's a street fight, a war, or most sporting events. In this disccusion I could care less what Superman could do, I'm speaking to what he does do.

Nothing at all to do with "poor" plotting or writing in this case but staying true to the character's established characteristics.

You should agree with them. Again, it is people like you that just accept bad story telling that gives us the mundane crap that comics puts out about 80% of the time.
Yes, I understand that comics are monthly and that hero needs to prevail, but if you are going to present your character in a mature fashion as DC does with Batman, then you need to leave the kiddie hero always win stories behind.

LOL!!! You have no idea what I accept as good or bad story telling and I couldn't care less about what you what you deem as worthy or good stories. Unless you have some sort of sort of official documantation and a funny hat declaring you to be the "Master Determinator Of Good Stories" no one cares.

Thank you. You've just turned this part of the discussion from "geeky" to annoying.

[Miss J.]

ONLY reason i didnt mention Gotham Central is it isnt a Batman comic.

Well if that's the ONLY reason...then I guess we can let that slide. ;)

[Libaax]

Which is why i asked about Simon Dark in its thread, i have been longing for a good comic about Gotham without Batman and co. That awesome series showed Gotham is too interesting and too big to limit it only to Bats and his group.

[carabas]

Anakin Skywalker.Well, yes. Of course in his case you still don't get a lot of suspense because you knew how the story ends twenty years before the movie came out. Plus, indeed, he's hardly a hero. And three movies hardly qualifies as serialised fiction when compared to almost any superhero.

[Miss J.]

Following your logic then most people who ever read comics are "the problem".

Actually, yes. This is true of most stagnant writing. Whatever is popular to readers will continue to be churned out to make money and product. It actually hasn't much to do with what is good or bad writing, but what will make money.

However, a lot of readers can get sort of stuck in a rut after a while, which can be hard to get out of until someone does something off the wall to get our attention again. Which I think the beginning of this thread insinuated that's not happening right now for some of us.

Was there an era of Batman or most superheroes where they weren't able to get out of most predicaments? Did I miss an era of Batman stories where he'd get into a predicament and had to sit around and wait for someone to get him out of it. Batman's success rate of getting himself of a predicament probably isn't any better than most superheroes in general.

Not suggesting he needs someone to get him out of it. But the simplicity of his getting himself out of these predicaments has somewhat taken the tension and build-up out of the stories. Yes, we all know he's going to win. It's a given. But we're not sitting on the edge of our seats waiting for the climax to relieve us of our anxiety of it. He just does it, and sometimes a little too easily. Which I guess can be part of its appeal for some people. Maybe the problem isn't Batman. Maybe it's his Rogues. Maybe they need up their ante, instead.


Nothing at all to do with "poor" plotting or writing in this case but staying true to the character's established characteristics.

If that's the case, then accept these two characters would NEVER go head to head in the first place.

no one cares.

No. You don't care. So get out of the thread if you don't want to discuss it or have people challenge your ideas. That's the point of a discussion thread.

Thank you. You've just turned this part of the discussion from "geeky" to annoying.

Right back at you.

[Miss J.]

Well, yes. Of course in his case you still don't get a lot of suspense because you knew how the story ends twenty years before the movie came out. Plus, indeed, he's hardly a hero. And three movies hardly qualifies as serialised fiction when compared to almost any superhero.

I dare you should copy and past this comment in any Star Wars discussion thread and see what you get back. Those guys are much more hardcore than any comic book nerd.

Seriously.;)

[havokeff]

Hero?
Hero.



And yet you clearly don't, otherwise why whine about it?


SEAN
Having an opinion is whining now? That's new. And again you gloss over the full quote to make your "point". Which is just calling me a whiner. I reiterate: Cute.

[havokeff]

Following your logic then most people who ever read comics are "the problem". Was there an era of Batman or most superheroes where they weren't able to get out of most predicaments? Did I miss an era of Batman stories where he'd get into a predicament and had to sit around and wait for someone to get him out of it. Batman's success rate of getting himself of a predicament probably isn't any better than most superheroes in general.

Of course not, but in those days Batman was not even remotely directed at more than a 7th or 8th grade audience. Since the late 80s, Batman has had a decisively adult oriented theme. Little kids will get excited about a scenario that Batman gets stuck in. I and most adults, will not, because they know he will get out of it. I'm not saying there are not good stories, but just accepting a bad story because that "is the character", leads to a level of substandard writing.

Batman taking out Superman is Batman taking out Superman. To me it doesn't matter if it's because Batman outsmarted him, if Superman is too trusting, if Batman plays dirty, if Superman hold back or if Batman fools Superman with the old "Your shoes laces are untied" trick. The things you named are part of the character. Those are his weaknesses. Those characteristics that get exploited when anyone takes on Superman. Exploiting an opponent's weaknesses is the way people get the best of them whether it's a street fight, a war, or most sporting events. In this disccusion I could care less what Superman could do, I'm speaking to what he does do.

Nothing at all to do with "poor" plotting or writing in this case but staying true to the character's established characteristics.

Yes and why are these the characteristics of these characters? Because of thirty or forty years of Bat-Whatever magically appearing in Batman's utility belt, and it is always exactly what he needs for the situation at hand. Hmmm... what is that called again?

As for Superman, well it is the same thing, except the bad writing had to make Superman dumb in order for anyone to beat him. The Dues Ex in a Superman story usually works for the bad guy.

It is still just crap writing.

LOL!!! You have no idea what I accept as good or bad story telling and I couldn't care less about what you what you deem as worthy or good stories. Unless you have some sort of sort of official documantation and a funny hat declaring you to be the "Master Determinator Of Good Stories" no one cares.

Thank you. You've just turned this part of the discussion from "geeky" to annoying.

You've made it quite clear that you accept ANY story as good as long as the character does what the character is supposed to do. How boring. That takes it from geeky to just sad.

[havokeff]

Well, yes. Of course in his case you still don't get a lot of suspense because you knew how the story ends twenty years before the movie came out. Plus, indeed, he's hardly a hero. And three movies hardly qualifies as serialised fiction when compared to almost any superhero.

I'll concede the serialized part. I glossed over that when I read the original comment. However Anakin is CLEARLY a hero and the point of the whole saga is the rise of him AS a hero, his fall, and his redemption.

As for suspense... well if you are comparing it to Batman, it has about the same level of suspense because you know how it is going to end... twenty years before it comes out. ;)

[Sean Whitmore]

Having an opinion is whining now?

Whining about an opinion is whining.


SEAN

[Miss J.]

Whining about an opinion is whining.

Give it a rest already.

[havokeff]

Whining about an opinion is whining.


SEAN
Exactly.
It's ironic that in a thread about creativity being dead all you can muster are one line spam responses that = "Stop whining".

[Sean Whitmore]

Exactly.
It's ironic that in a thread about creativity being dead all you can muster are one line spam responses that = "Stop whining".

Perhaps I could talk about "Dues" Ex.


SEAN

[Wind-Breaker]

I think there have been great stories in past years myself, like the mentioned No Man's Land, and Dini’s run that has been delivering on every issue, but what really stood out to me (and I know I'm probably alone in this) I thought "Under the Hood" Arcs were great.

Granted Jason Todd being resurrected via a Superboy punch wasn't ideal but his return afterwards couldn't have been written better IMO. It felt like this story was a 2nd and 3rd act the Death In the Family story. I think that in no way that it devalued or tarnished the legacy of that story. Bringing back Jason Todd was a great ploy to bring in casual fans that was in the same vein of shocking events like breaking Bruce's back or crippling Batgirl. The last scene between Batman, Todd, and the Joker was probably the most riveting scenes I've ever read in comics. The revelation that Batman thinks about torturing Joker endlessly was one of those "Holy #&$*!" moments, and considering all the stuff the Joker has put him through it's certainly not out of character. In fact I think it shows a new side to him. Todd pushing Batman to the limit of the "Do not kill" rule was great theme to go with. I honestly think the story holds up with all the proclaimed “great” Batman stories.

[jgiannantoni05]

Jason's return is one of the worst things to happen to Batman continuity in a long time IMHO. It was a poor idea and poorly executed IMHO. Jason was better left a martyr, a "good soldier" in Batman's war. His death was a notch on The Joker's belt (Batman Chronicles #16-->"The day I won" memorial), and served as a cautionary lesson to Tim Drake on the real dangers of becoming a Robin. The impermanence of Jason's death greatly diminished the many meaningful effects of Jason's death. And death in the DCU is now absolutely meaningless and a joke, one I don't find funny.

As far execution, the Superboy prime punch was the laziest and silliest explanation. To top it off, Jason has been an inconsistent mess in every title he's been in. I've never seen a character go through so many personas in such a short period. And now he's named after that expensive burger joint. What an utter debacle IMHO. The return had "shock value short term sales hike" written all over it IMHO.

IMO Morrison's recent stories will be seen as classics the same way Arkham Asylum is.
I disagree. Gothic and Arkham Asylum are his best Batman works. Batman & Son I thought was very subpar, as was Ra's resurrection. All I liked so far was Club of Heroes. As far as his current Batman run, Morrison is overrated IMHO, something that happens to him often I see on certain titles (I think overhyped overrated writers/artists is quite a problem in comics today in terms of achieving quality).

[havokeff]

Jason's return is one of the worst things to happen to Batman continuity in a long time IMHO. It was a poor idea and poorly executed IMHO. Jason was better left a martyr, a "good soldier" in Batman's war. His death was a notch on The Joker's belt (Batman Chronicles #16-->"The day I won" memorial), and served as a cautionary lesson to Tim Drake on the real dangers of becoming a Robin. The impermanence of Jason's death greatly diminished the many meaningful effects of Jason's death. And death in the DCU is now absolutely meaningless and a joke, one I don't find funny.

I couldn't agree more. Killing Todd was a defining moment in Batman and Joker's history that DC has just decided to shit all over. It was one of Batman's true, and greatest failures, and drove him into a new territory. But now... well he's back, so I guess Batman is off the hook for ******* up and he is perfect again. :rolleyes:

[Ann Nichols]

Oh, I'm sure All Star Batman will be a future classic.

In the vein of classic Ed Wood movies.

LOL

Maybe Tim Burton can do a movie tribute to it.

Or would that be just too cyclical?


SEAN

ditto

Hadn't considered that reason, too. Good point. This is true of many things we become connected to. Once you feel as though a character is straying from a formula, you can easily feel betrayed, which in turn creates animosity. So if this is the case, no wonder All Star is so disliked.

<snip>


If there's a good reason for the character to stray from the formula or if the change has been gradual and groundwork has been properly laid, I don't feel betrayed. On the other hand, I really hate stories in which the writer decides
a character is going to behave in a way that doesn't make sense for the character, because that's what his/her plot calls for. The explanation, if any, is inadequate.

I agree with you. Still I wonder what the people here define as "classic". <snip>

Pick a definition?
http://www.answers.com/topic/classic

Dues Ex is a writers cop out. If that is something you accept then you are part of the problem as to why we don't get better stories in comics. And really what is the point of reading Batman if you know that he is ALWAYS going to get out of any predicament. How fucking boring is that?
<snip>


The deus ex machina has been a writers' cop out for a very long time. I find that it can be quite entertaining in parody.
As for heroes who always win, my father didn't like Perry Mason because he always won. On the other hand, viewers always knew that Detective Columbo would figure out the killer. We always knew who the killer was. The fun of that show was seeing how Columbo figured things out and caught the killer. Batman always getting out of any predicament needn't be boring if the writer makes how he gets out of it unpredictable.

[carabas]

I disagree. Gothic and Arkham Asylum are his best Batman works. Batman & Son I thought was very subpar, as was Ra's resurrection. All I liked so far was Club of Heroes. As far as his current Batman run, Morrison is overrated IMHO, something that happens to him often I see on certain titles (I think overhyped overrated writers/artists is quite a problem in comics today in terms of achieving quality).His run on Batman is really only one story so far, split up in various mini-arcs. The isolatedarcs won't be classics, but the story that comprises the entire run will. Much like his run on New X-Men. A bunch of different arc there too, none of them particularly classic, but the sum is far greater than the individual parts.

[Miss J.]

Batman always getting out of any predicament needn't be boring if the writer makes how he gets out of it unpredictable.

Suppose that would help. I think what i'm seeing is sub-par 'getting out of the predicament' situations. I guess I'm just not feeling captivated by his getting out of the situation because that's as predictable lately as the outcome.

[OverMaster]

It looks to me like a few people here has fallen into the old trap of thinking 'Depressive Horse Manure where the Good Guys often Lose and People Dies by Bucketloads=Mature' pitfall.

Which is the reason why we have Dan DiDio crapping all over DC now.

[Miss J.]

It looks to me like a few people here has fallen into the old trap of thinking 'Depressive Horse Manure where the Good Guys often Lose and People Dies by Bucketloads=Mature' pitfall.

Good writing doesn't mean the hero has to win. There's actually a theme in great literature called 'Tragedy' where the hero falls by way of his hamartia, or one true flaw. Then there's 'Comedy' whereby the hero starts out in a terrible predicament and it turns out very good in the end. Either way, it can be done and all are acceptable forms of entertainment.

Having intense feelings for a story such as sadness, happiness, etc., are what make it great writing and enjoyable for a reader. Good guys winning every time isn't necessary. It just sells. Like sex.

[OverMaster]

Good writing doesn't mean the hero has to win. There's actually a theme in great literature called 'Tragedy' where the hero falls by way of his hamartia, or one true flaw. Then there's 'Comedy' whereby the hero starts out in a terrible predicament and it turns out very good in the end. Either way, it can be done and all are acceptable forms of entertainment.

Having intense feelings for a story such as sadness, happiness, etc., are what make it great writing and enjoyable for a reader. Good guys winning every time isn't necessary. It just sells. Like sex.

Not to offend, but where have you been the last few years while comics have had more and more heroic defeats and tragedies to the point it has gotten repetitive on itself?

[Miss J.]

Not to offend, but where have you been the last few years while comics have had more and more heroic defeats and tragedies to the point it has gotten repetitive on itself?

My point was a hero doesn't need to win to make a story automatically good or 'mature.' It can be either as long as it's done in a way that capitavates the reader. Not become 'repetitive' as you just pointed out. Which leads us back to the boring part.

[OverMaster]

My point was a hero doesn't need to win to make a story automatically good or 'mature.' It can be either as long as it's done in a way that capitavates the reader. Not become 'repetitive' as you just pointed out. Which leads us back to the boring part.

My point was, of late, the depressing stories for the sake of a pretentious fake maturity have become too much of a recent superhero comics staple. Captain America? Gunned down. Marvel's superhero community? Pointlessly divided. Spoiler? Dead. The funny JLI? Made shambles. The list goes on and on, so is it needed to have more of that? But if you don't think so, it's obvious we have way too different views on the current status of the comics industry.

[Ann Nichols]

Overmaster, I think you left out "a secondary or tertiary character must DIE or a Big Event/Crossover is a piddling deal."

Miss J, I note your use of "hamartia." Are you also a player at http://www.freerice.com ?

[Alex Dragon]

Actually, yes. This is true of most stagnant writing. Whatever is popular to readers will continue to be churned out to make money and product. It actually hasn't much to do with what is good or bad writing, but what will make money.

Well, there are several things to take into account. First you have a character who's been around for decades and it's allowed to to change (at least not too abruptly) and things must almost always go back to statis quo when an adventure is over. Coming up with a great Batman story isn't hard at all for a writer if they aren't forced to have to deal with what went before and leave things in pretty much the way things were after the story is done.

There's also the aspect of DC or any company wanting to protect it's properties. It's the editor's jobs to not let creators do anything that they consider putting their characters in a bad light or do irreversable damge to a character. It might be a fantasic story to see Batman beat an innocent man to a pulp and watch what happens when he has to deal with it and how he handles it but the editor might not Batman shown doing such a thing because it will/might change how people react to that character. Some people might not see it as a big deal at all but others might feel differently.

Also, you may not agree but the thrust of superhero comics is when you come down to it good guy vs bad guy with the hero mostly coming out on top. There's subplots, personal drama, struggle and other things a writer can play off or play with but you still have to have that driving force of the book be about good guy vs bad guy. That can be a tough thing to may seem fresh and original with characters that's been around so long in a genre that's been around so long with so many others writing the same type of stories and a fanbase that doesn't move on and sticks around reading decades worth of stories and being overly critical of all of them.

All those things add up to make it tough to do work that truly stands out. Not impossible... but hard.

However, a lot of readers can get sort of stuck in a rut after a while, which can be hard to get out of until someone does something off the wall to get our attention again. Which I think the beginning of this thread insinuated that's not happening right now for some of us.

DC and Marvel routinely do things to get readers attention and then they get accused of being "gimmicky".

Yeah, a lot of readers can get stuck in a rut and many of them are very happy in that rut. As I mentioned in an earlier post there are many readers who want things to stay comfortably the same. I really can't think of any major or even minor changes in a character or title that hasn't been met with at least some negativity even before the books come out.

A comic company just can't ignore those people who like the ruts. The rut dwellers' numbers are too great. What good are "ALL NEW!" "ALL DIFFERENT!" when you've turned off so much of the audience there isn't enough people left to sustain the title?

Not suggesting he needs someone to get him out of it. But the simplicity of his getting himself out of these predicaments has somewhat taken the tension and build-up out of the stories. Yes, we all know he's going to win. It's a given. But we're not sitting on the edge of our seats waiting for the climax to relieve us of our anxiety of it. He just does it, and sometimes a little too easily. Which I guess can be part of its appeal for some people. Maybe the problem isn't Batman. Maybe it's his Rogues. Maybe they need up their ante, instead.

I get it. I get it. These types of discussions can be fun for awhile but in the end it it's all basically "This is what I want..." and "This what I like..." . If a poster comes here and starts posting that they think Batman stories from the last few years have been fantastic and he doesn't agree with any of the stuff you mention I see his opinion as being just as valid as yours.

If that's the case, then accept these two characters would NEVER go head to head in the first place.

Why would a writer limit themselves just because some readers don't agree on how the story should handled? If Batman getting the best of Superman ends up to be an entertaining story why shouldn't it be written?

No. You don't care. So get out of the thread if you don't want to discuss it or have people challenge your ideas. That's the point of a discussion thread.

Anyone can challange my ideas, opinions and thoughts all day long and I'm fine with it but when they toss out insults, imply or say the stuff I like is crap while the stuff they like is only quality stuff when they have no idea what I read or like...I find it annoying. You and I don't see eye to eye on certain matters and yet neither of us has resorted to insults, putdowns or acussatations about each other that we really know nothing about. If that's what someone has to do to try and make their point I really have no interest in debating with them and don't care about their opinions (which they unfortunately don't see as opinons in the first place) or their opinion of me.



Right back at you.

And now back to you.

[Miss J.]

There's also the aspect of DC or any company wanting to protect it's properties. It's the editor's jobs to not let creators do anything that they consider putting their characters in a bad light or do irreversable damge to a character.

This is too true. I often forget there are those invisible people behind keeping the character honest to its universe, personality, etc.

That can be a tough thing to may seem fresh and original with characters that's been around so long in a genre that's been around so long with so many others writing the same type of stories and a fanbase that doesn't move on and sticks around reading decades worth of stories and being overly critical of all of them.

This is true with any form of writing. We've all been stealing from each other for centuries. I guess it's the little personal twists that make them unique and being critical of that is easy to do when you're just a reader.

All those things add up to make it tough to do work that truly stands out. Not impossible... but hard.

Agreed. Though sometimes I feel as though some writers are churning out something generic because they have to. Kind of like musicians who get stuck having to release an album once a year. They lose sight of the creative aspect and start making a commodity instead of art because they have to. Which often times explains why a band's first album rocks and the second is sub-par and so on. Except Led Zeppelin. Led Zeppelin Two rocked harder than the first. (that's just me.)


And now back to you.

Touche.

[the goddamn batman]

Agreed. Though sometimes I feel as though some writers are churning out something generic because they have to. Kind of like musicians who get stuck having to release an album once a year. They lose sight of the creative aspect and start making a commodity instead of art because they have to. Which often times explains why a band's first album rocks and the second is sub-par and so on. Except Led Zeppelin. Led Zeppelin Two rocked harder than the first. (that's just me.)


You have your entire life to write your first album and six months to write your second.

[Alex Dragon]

Suppose that would help. I think what i'm seeing is sub-par 'getting out of the predicament' situations. I guess I'm just not feeling captivated by his getting out of the situation because that's as predictable lately as the outcome.

I have no idea what Batman stories you may be thinking about but you have to keep in mind that maybe "getting out of the predicament" in certain stories was what the writer felt was the "meat" of the story and the writer didn't make it a big deal because they wanted the story to move on to what they considered the more important plot point. Maybe the "predicaments" you're thinking about weren't even real "predicaments" that should give Batman a hard time in the eyes of the writer.

Or perhaps you just don't feel the "predicaments" you're referring to are getting enough "face" time. There was a time perhaps when more pages were devoted to showing Batman dealing with certain things that perhaps today's writers don't feel is something worth devoting much time to or feel that it simply wouldn't give Batman that much trouble. Maybe you're not as captivated by these things because these days those things aren't as big a deal as they once were.

I would imagine things like Batman tracking someone down isn't the same as it used to be because of the use of computers, Oracle and such. Back in the day he had to get out there on the streets and talk to snitches and cause a rukus to get info. I don't imagine that type of thing happens as often these days as it once did.
I would also imagine fans expect more out of this version of Batman in general. If this Batman would fall for some of the traps the Batman of 20 years ago the fans would scream bloody murder and ask how he could be so easily duped.

Again, I have no idea what types of things you're talking about specifically. Just offering up some theories.

[Alex Dragon]

Agreed. Though sometimes I feel as though some writers are churning out something generic because they have to. Kind of like musicians who get stuck having to release an album once a year. They lose sight of the creative aspect and start making a commodity instead of art because they have to. Which often times explains why a band's first album rocks and the second is sub-par and so on. Except Led Zeppelin. Led Zeppelin Two rocked harder than the first. (that's just me.)


It's always been my theory that most writers only have one or two great JLA, Superman or Batman stories in them and about 2 good ones and the rest of their stuff is mediocre. But writers want to keep a job so they just stay on a book and keep writing even when the ideas aren't nearly as strong after awhile. While many fans want and like when a writer stays on a book for a long run in many cases that's not a good thing. There are many writers who just don't have that many good stories in them for certain characters.

I much prefer when a writer comes on with a strong vision and tells their best stories then moves on and then the next writer comes on to do their best stuff. Someone like Loeb seems to have some good stories in him and he tells them and leaves. I don't think Loeb's stories would always be as strong or as impactful if he hung around on certain characters for years doing it monthly.

[Alex Dragon]

You have your entire life to write your first album and six months to write your second.

The second album, movie sequel or story arc is always tough because you want to put in elements of what made the first one good but not so much that it seems to be a copy or knockoff of the first but not so different that it turns off the people who liked the first. It's a tough fine line to walk.

[carabas]

I have no idea what Batman stories you may be thinking about but you have to keep in mind that maybe "getting out of the predicament" in certain stories...Adam West Batman is pretty much the only thing that comes to mind.

[Damiean Dark]

The hero villain dynamic is why i loved World war hulk at first glance it seemed a standard bad guy hulk gets angry and busts heads of marvels greatest earth-based heroes but it wasnt completely black and white. where the "heroes" of eath right to shoot hulk into space? do they only opperate on there own whims? it was refreashing to see the likes of mr fantastic, iron man and co almost portrayed as the badguys we even saw ordinary NY citizens giving thier reasons for hating the heroes.

A great read and the type of story telling DC has lacked for a looong time imo.

[TMM Writes Lego]

:( I have really really good ideas never before thought of for the Dark Knight but I am not known to DC Comics. I really wish I was, but I am probally too young, that sucks and I am a good artist.