Whats the big deal about Arkham Asylum?

[PLEDGE]

Just finished reading this book, supposedly one of the better batman ones out there and was very disappointed. what the heck was it all about other than the criminals gaining control of the asylum? if it was an attempt to explore the mind and how we must go within and confront our fears 'insert some other abstract thought' it was a big miss for me. the art is an acquired taste as well. i dunno, it just seemed all over the place and didnt really draw me in. maybe im missing something...

[dancj]

It's okay, but I've never really got the huge love that some people have for this book.

One thing I do really like in the book though is the handling of Harvey Dent.

[OverMaster]

Well, it came at a time when deep, psychological Batman stories were much more of a rarity than they are now. It was groundbreaking for its time, not so much now.

[Rattlehead]

It's Dave McKean, what's there to not like?

[Greg Anderson]

Haha! I remember how PISSED I was after reading this book. I felt as if I was ripped off. Even the art I thought was crap. But when I did a bit of research into the book and sat down to take everything in the second time I read it, I fell in love with it. Now I recommend it to a lot of people, but I totally understand people not liking it or getting pissed that they read it as it does seem like a waste of time the first read, but after that, it's a fun ride. At least for me.

[Miss J.]

I dug this when I first read it because of the interest in the Asylum itself (and liked how they handled Dent, as well). I thought the striking artistic contrast between what appeared as though found objects and actual drawing on the pages was captivating for me, but that doesn't have much to do with the story. Though I found it rather dark, which I prefer.

But I think your view of Arkham Asylum is like my perception of the Killing Joke. Understandably both new and innovative when they came out and I appreciate what it did for comics, but why people worship it like a totem, I have no idea...

[Captain Jim]

I never cared for it at all. In fact when I was given an autographed copy of the hardcover, I subsequently gave it away.

[Netley]

I was a kid when I first read it, and it blew me away! I've read it again more recently, and it still holds up imo. You have to remember that when it came out, that style of psychological horror was really cutting edge for comics. Additionally, it really delves into the back story of the founding of the asylum, leaving that open to be explored further (which I don't think it was).

Besides, anything that Dave McKean draws gets an 11 out of 10 in my book!!! What the hell has he been up to anyway???

[Greg Anderson]

I was a kid when I first read it, and it blew me away! I've read it again more recently, and it still holds up imo. You have to remember that when it came out, that style of psychological horror was really cutting edge for comics. Additionally, it really delves into the back story of the founding of the asylum, leaving that open to be explored further (which I don't think it was).

Besides, anything that Dave McKean draws gets an 11 out of 10 in my book!!! What the hell has he been up to anyway???


Isn't he directing now? I think he directed Mirror mask.

[Netley]

Isn't he directing now? I think he directed Mirror mask.

Oh yeah, that's right. Mirror Mask was pretty good, but I'd much rather have another Gaiman/McKean comic than a movie! Violent Cases and Mr. Punch are phenomenal!

[filthysize]

I never cared for it at all. In fact when I was given an autographed copy of the hardcover, I subsequently gave it away.

ARRRRGGHHHHHHH.

Someone stole my copy a couple of years back and I'm still pissed about it.

Your post sends a thousand dead kitties into my soul.

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

I didn't care for it either when I read it when it first came out.

But from what I've understood, it was savagely edited. It doesn't flow very well. Scenes deemed too offensive were struck, including one depicting Joker dressed like Madonna. Also, if you notice the panels with Scarecrow, he enters and leaves, but I can tell there's something missing in between. Perhaps DC should issue a "Director's Cut" or something.

[Netley]

I didn't care for it either when I read it when it first came out.

But from what I've understood, it was savagely edited. It doesn't flow very well. Scenes deemed too offensive were struck, including one depicting Joker dressed like Madonna. Also, if you notice the panels with Scarecrow, he enters and leaves, but I can tell there's something missing in between. Perhaps DC should issue a "Director's Cut" or something.

Wow I didn't know that. If that's the case, a director's cut would definitely be interesting!

[Miss J.]

Your post sends a thousand dead kitties into my soul.

That kind of gives me the feeling I had after reading this:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y78/onikoneko/1187191366484.jpg

[Greg Anderson]

I didn't care for it either when I read it when it first came out.

But from what I've understood, it was savagely edited. It doesn't flow very well. Scenes deemed too offensive were struck, including one depicting Joker dressed like Madonna. Also, if you notice the panels with Scarecrow, he enters and leaves, but I can tell there's something missing in between. Perhaps DC should issue a "Director's Cut" or something.

Tons were edited out from the original script, I believe. In the back of the new edition of the book the full script is printed and you can read the scenes that have Robin in them.

[JayC]

I thought it was good, not great, but a good read. Something batman fans should read? Yes. Something you can't live without? No.

Honest I was getting irritated with the Joker's red text half the time as it was hella hard on my eyes to read even though I liked the effect.

[Netley]

That kind of gives me the feeling I had after reading this:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y78/onikoneko/1187191366484.jpg

Wow, Miss J., this C&H is very powerful! Waterson is truly a genius, borderline prophetic when you consider when this must have come out.

[Miss J.]

Honest I was getting irritated with the Joker's red text half the time as it was hella hard on my eyes to read even though I liked the effect.

I had this problem, too, though it made for a nice in-my-head voice effect that creeped me out.

Remind me, because I haven't read this in a long time...why were they taking over the asylum instead of breaking out of it? I'm kind of not getting that suddenly. It seems they would've typically run through the all too common revolving door...

[Omar Karindu]

Remind me, because I haven't read this in a long time...why were they taking over the asylum instead of breaking out of it? I'm kind of not getting that suddenly. It seems they would've typically run through the all too common revolving door...

The last pages have the Joker claim that Arkham is more comfortable and more real than the outside world. Thematically, of course, it's the Feast of Fools bit with the normal order of things reversed. The inmates are running the asylum and actually wanting to stay in it rather than the usual case.

[the goddamn batman]

Wow... the fact that anyone can say they didn't dig on McKean's art is mind blowing... :eek:

[bw38]

add me too the list of someone who thought this was crap. the art, the story, what a waste. i'm sure it was big when it first came out, but it certainly hasn't aged well, imo.

[Orbitron]

I thought this book was ground-breaking! It took all the cheesiness from the Joker, and really gave the reader a terrifying, unhinged villain! The scene where he tells Batman the joke, where the punchline concludes with Joker killing the policeman was stirring!

Name a Batman title that has succeeded to this level of creepiness before or after this was published. I really liked that Batman was almost a side character in this book --- as it is aptly named, Arkham is the main character.

Bottom line -- like Morrison or not, he gives you something you've never seen before on characters that have around a very long time.

Also, McKean is amazing! Anyone ever checked out Cages? He's the man!

[the goddamn batman]

Cages (along with all of McKean's work) is amazing. One of my top five comics ever.

Nobody in comics can touch McKean. Too bad he's more interested in making movies that while interesting, aren't as good as his art. At least we've got Sienkiewicz back.:D

By the by, I heard that VErtigo turned down a McKean project a while back... what's that about? You passed on McKean? What's wrong with comics...?

[ZombieHavoc]

I didn't care much for it either.

[the-wolf]

I thought this book was ground-breaking! It took all the cheesiness from the Joker, and really gave the reader a terrifying, unhinged villain! The scene where he tells Batman the joke, where the punchline concludes with Joker killing the policeman was stirring!

Name a Batman title that has succeeded to this level of creepiness before or after this was published. I really liked that Batman was almost a side character in this book --- as it is aptly named, Arkham is the main character.




You couldn't be more right. I don't get most of the opinions on this. Arkham is one of the most original, mature, sophisticated and dark Batman reads ever done. And just a plain kick@$$ story to boot. The art perfectly suits the story. Easily in my top 10.

[mrc1214]

I didnt like it either i really never saw the big deal with the book.

[Brack360]

I also thought it was underwhelming when given all of the hype. I didn't enjoy it as much as I expected to, and it is certainly not one of my top Batman stories. I did enjoy McKean's artwork though and liked the non-traditional approach.

[filthysize]

I don't find it that groundbreaking, to be honest. I'm not sure what it accomplished that DKR didn't already start. I just find it to be a really fascinating read with how Morrison reinterpreted all the villains. Especially Two-Face. It's kind of a deranged haunted house book, and I'm always in the mood for that.

Also, I think I liked Dave McKean's art more than Morrison's script, and that's saying a lot. That book is just gorgeous on a stick that I can chew on forever.

[OverMaster]

Wow, Miss J., this C&H is very powerful! Waterson is truly a genius, borderline prophetic when you consider when this must have come out.

Actually, that was not an actual strip, but a fan-alteration. A clever one, but ultimately not official at all.

[Just a Shadow]

I really enjoyed the story but hated the art.

[the goddamn batman]

I really enjoyed the story but hated the art.

That's crazy... how can you HATE on McKean?:confused:

[Netley]

Actually, that was not an actual strip, but a fan-alteration. A clever one, but ultimately not official at all.

Oh, didn't realize that. Well it's still a very strong piece, and works really well with his art (and maybe the only of the many C&H rip-offs worth a damn...Calvin would never pee on a Chevy symbol to give "props" to the Ford corporation - ridiculous I tells ya!)

That's crazy... how can you HATE on McKean?:confused:

Seriously! One of the greatest artists our medium has ever had!

[the goddamn batman]

Certainly one of, if not "THE".

Honestly, the man is a genius.

[Rabid Trekkie]

I also thought it was underwhelming when given all of the hype. I didn't enjoy it as much as I expected to, and it is certainly not one of my top Batman stories. I did enjoy McKean's artwork though and liked the non-traditional approach.

The hype, for me, is what almost killed my enjoyment of this story. I finally read it a month ago and with all the hype I've heard about it over the years, I was expecting this incredible story that would be the Holy Grail of Batman stories.

Instead of some penultimate dream, it's just a really good story. And one of my favorite things about it was that it made me actually feel sorry for Two-Face and gave him one of the best lines I've ever read.

So the story doesn't live up to the hype, but given the hype, I don't think anything could.

[PLEDGE]

i dont see how its a really good story. for those people who do think it is, care to give some reasons as to why you think its a good story?

[the goddamn batman]

Care to give some reasons why you think it isn't?

[Nefarius]

It's a good story.I don't consider it THE Batman story,but i can't call it bad.I loved Two-Face in this story and i enjoyed the look of the Joker(thank God that we didn't see him in female clothes as they intend to do).McKean arts was beatiful in this story and i can't imagine another artist draw this story.It's a little bit overrated(not LH type) but it's a must be to everyone's collection.

[Captain Jim]

Care to give some reasons why you think it isn't?

Seems to me that the burden of proof should be showing how something is a great work, not why it isn't.

[PLEDGE]

Seems to me that the burden of proof should be showing how something is a great work, not why it isn't.

truth

Care to give some reasons why you think it isn't?

see first post in this thread.

[Miss J.]

Seems to me that the burden of proof should be showing how something is a great work, not why it isn't.

I feel like the art for AA is innovative. It's not every day someone does the kind of art representative in this story, particularly because it makes following it harder. In this case, I think it did a good job of following a storyboard and illuminating it in a fresh way.

I can see how this kind of story would be innovative for its time. However, the concept of delving into the psychology of psychos now is something anyone who's ever gone to community college can attest to being familiar with. It's like a drawn version of the DSM-IV.

I think what could potentially make this story innovative now is it's consistency in sticking with Arkham, itself. Not just the Doctor, but the building sort of becomes a character instead of just a location. As though it were a catalyst of some sort.

[Netley]

Seems to me that the burden of proof should be showing how something is a great work, not why it isn't.

Whoa, alright cool, I'm down. Hmmm...let's see, the founding of the asylum itself, about that crazy dude scribbling in his cell. There was some really psychologically scary stuff in there, definitely way more than any other Batman book had done at the time (actually, which came out first - Arkham Asylum or the Killing Joke?).

Anyway, another cool part was how the Joker was "insanely orderly," I would call it, in the way he organized and enacted his plan. Gives credence to Morrison's Joker-as-actually-more-sane-than-us idea from JLA (even though very different eras).

I loved how Two Face was being weened from his dependency on flipping the coin. The asylum had a new staff or something, but it allowed Morrison to play with the idea of applying some modern (80's) psych ideas into the mythos/narrative of Batman's main Rogues. OK, so part of this is they ween Two Face off of his coin-flipping by getting him into dice, giving him SIX possible outcomes for a decision he has trouble making. Then the moved him onto a deck of cards I think, ultimately hoping to help him eventually realize that one is in control of one's destiny, and he has created a false dichotomy of a yes/no reality in his head. Brilliant stuff, I think.

So when the villains take over the Asylum (don't worry, that's the beginning, I'm not giving anything away really), Batman encounters his rogues after the characters have been subjected to a new, modern psychological reality.

Really interesting ideas, I think. Especially given the era it came out (mid-to-late 80's). I don't think it's a stretch to assume that this take on the characters in influenced Paul Dini's wonderful square-jawed Batman the Animated series (another first in that same way for superhero cartoons). That series also applied a psychological spotlight on the villains, like if each one were a tragedy.

All of that having been said, I have to say that I will get anything that Dave McKean draws, the man is an amazing artist (and everything he does seems to also always be incredibly written)! His combination of sketch, painting, and photography was (and is) unparalleled. In Asylum, his intricate, dreamlike style really played well for the general feeling of insanity. It's just amazing art, I'm sorry, that's all there is too it haha. From this to his Sandman covers to Cages to Signal to Noise, McKean never fails to deliver original, thought provoking work.

Well, those are my thoughts on the comic. I have no gripes with anyone who doesn't like this comic. This is merely me discussing a book I like, and I thank you for your ear (or eye, I suppose). All of our interpretations of art and storytelling are valid, and I believe they actually add to the collective reality of a piece of art.

[Miss J.]

(actually, which came out first - Arkham Asylum or the Killing Joke?).

TKJ - '88 / AA - '89

Gives credence to Morrison's Joker-as-actually-more-sane-than-us idea from JLA (even though very different eras).

This theory has actually been floating around for a very long time, that Joker is more sane now than he ever has been before. That he plays crazy on purpose. If we look at TKJ, Joker's act of attempting to demonstrate how one 'bad day' can make you crazy - demonstrating why he does what he does - is actually the opposite of being crazy. He understands himself on a level no one else (at the time) seemed to get. I love that, personally. Even golden-age Joker said this about himself. That he understood his face could scare much easier than the red hood ever could, so he ditched the hood and went with the face.


That series also applied a psychological spotlight on the villains, like if each one were a tragedy.

How shakespearean. That's also something that makes it fresh that I hadn't considered, myself.

[PLEDGE]

Nice post Netly, I'm actually going to give this another go after reading that. Sometimes all you need is another persons perspective on something for you to really appreciate it. Props.

[Rokkit]

The book, back when I read it, creeped me the hell out.

I thought it was very well done. It's been a long time, but I considered it extremely effective.

[Netley]

TKJ - '88 / AA - '89



This theory has actually been floating around for a very long time, that Joker is more sane now than he ever has been before. That he plays crazy on purpose. If we look at TKJ, Joker's act of attempting to demonstrate how one 'bad day' can make you crazy - demonstrating why he does what he does - is actually the opposite of being crazy. He understands himself on a level no one else (at the time) seemed to get. I love that, personally. Even golden-age Joker said this about himself. That he understood his face could scare much easier than the red hood ever could, so he ditched the hood and went with the face.




How shakespearean. That's also something that makes it fresh that I hadn't considered, myself.

So Alan Moore's masterpiece came first, thanks. What an awesome combo of post-Dark Knight Batman storytelling Killing Joke and Asylum are! Joker really is one of the, if not the, most fascinating villains in comics. He just operates on a different wave length than anyone else, so his only limits as a character are those of his writer/artist (of which he's had many greats!).

And yeah the animated series was totally Shakespearean, huh! Even those killer painted title pages for each story (don't know what to call them) seemed like play posters to me!

Nice post Netly, I'm actually going to give this another go after reading that. Sometimes all you need is another persons perspective on something for you to really appreciate it. Props.

Wow, thanks man. I truly hope you enjoy it as much as I did!

[dotdotdot]

i'm a morrison fanatic, but i'm not too fond of arkham asylum. i thought the joker prose issue was better.
anyone want to tell me about the arc he did for legends of the dark knight? gothic was the name i think.
something about lots of early vertigo style rubs me the wrong way......i can't really read any more gaimen ever. doom patrol was charming but also a little too frantic. same with jla, which also suffered from horrendous art. but the sort of vertigo, painted interiors.......ugh. it's just so dated now, and i didn't even try arkham asylum until a couple of years ago. if i had read it when it came out i probably would have thought it was the greatest thing in history.

[Rabid Trekkie]

i'm a morrison fanatic, but i'm not too fond of arkham asylum. i thought the joker prose issue was better.
anyone want to tell me about the arc he did for legends of the dark knight? gothic was the name i think.
something about lots of early vertigo style rubs me the wrong way......i can't really read any more gaimen ever. doom patrol was charming but also a little too frantic. same with jla, which also suffered from horrendous art. but the sort of vertigo, painted interiors.......ugh. it's just so dated now, and i didn't even try arkham asylum until a couple of years ago. if i had read it when it came out i probably would have thought it was the greatest thing in history.

I give the story of Gothic a B+ or higher depending on my mood, but the art in my opinion is terrible. Others may disagree so I suggest flipping through it for yourself.

The story though is top notch stuff.

[dotdotdot]

I give the story of Gothic a B+ or higher depending on my mood, but the art in my opinion is terrible. Others may disagree so I suggest flipping through it for yourself.

The story though is top notch stuff.

details?....

[outlander78]

I have owned this book for years, but haven't got far into it despite repeated attempts. The out-there style of the story and art always pushes me to read something else.

I'm glad others enjoy it and find depth in it - I wish I could, as the author and artist were obviously trying hard.

[Rabid Trekkie]

details?....

Usually try not to, always afraid I'll spoil something.

A man from Bruce's past returns with a diabolical plan for the citizens of Gotham. Now Batman must face his fears and confront a dangerous plot that threatens not just the lives but souls of the citizens of Gotham.

Tune in next week, same Bat-Time, same Bat-Channel.

[filthysize]

I looove Gothic.

The art isn't fantastic draft-wise and the coloring is typical of the time, but the way Klaus Jansen arranges the panels is simply top notch. Some of the pages in Gothic are ridiculously creepy. I love the sequence where Batman sees the ghost nun hovering in the dark monastery. It's really hard to do atmospheric horror in a comic book, but they really nailed it.

[dancj]

Honest I was getting irritated with the Joker's red text half the time as it was hella hard on my eyes to read even though I liked the effect.
That is a big problem with the book. They might have got away with that if the different colours were perfectly aligned in the printing, but they weren't in my copy.
That's crazy... how can you HATE on McKean?:confused:
I feel that way when people say they don't like Tim Sale or Frank Quitely's art.

As for McKean, I like the art in Arkham Asylum a lot. On the other hand I think his art in Mr Punch was pretty poor and his art in that "Death Talks About Life" insert he did was absolutely terrible.