Drawing for Graphic Novels

[Inkthinker]

I'd like to start by saying that I largely agree with your position that comics as a whole are (and probably should) move more towards the graphic novel format over the magazine... one of the things I'm curious about is how it changes the rules for how the business of producing content for comics, both for writers and for illustrators.

Some of the deals I've heard about, with Tokyopop for instance, involves something similar to what I believe prose novelists receive... an advance in order to keep the lights on, and then regular disbursements based on periodic content updates, with a final bulk payment upon completion of the work, and subsequently a royalty percentage based on future sales that (presumably) carries on into perpetuity.

Unfortunately, the numbers I've heard from a few Tokyopop contracts are nearly untenable... at one point, I heard $500 disbursed for every 20 pages that the artist sends in, up to the end of a 160-page book. This sounded ridiculous to me, but the person I was hearing this from said that Tokyopop seemed to feel that most of their artists were either working as part-timers with a "real" job for their main support, or had the support of parents or other means to keep themselves in house and home.

By a similar rote, I've heard of other deals in which the artist or writer is expected to produce the book in its entirety (or at least nearly so) prior to being published, with returns based entirely on percentage of sales after publishing expenses. Needless to say, this makes for a difficult proposition for any full-time illustrator to stomach... if it's your own work, it may seem more feasible to impart the time and investment as a "labour of love", but what about for those artists who produce as work-for-hire illustrators?

How should production of a graphic novel work in terms of contracted obligations, returns and so forth? I have a basic understanding of how it works for the 22-page format, but the 160+ page format is presumably a different beast. What standards are in place currently for graphic novel production, and what standards might be put in place? Is it reasonable to expect the artist to dedicate 6 months or more of steady production without the investment of an advance, or regular disbursements? What numbers seem reasonable, and where do we begin establishing a regular baseline that this newer form of production can stand upon?

[Inkthinker]

Really? Nothing?

[Mladen]

its a difficult question :)
I also agree that its maybe time that comics really thought about shifting their focus onto the tpb rather than the comic. its a more appealing format to casual and new readers, and a lot of stories suffer from the 'movie serial' type format, with a cliff-hanger at the end of each issue... not always ideal for a longer more cerebral comic for example. Vertigo already seems to function on the premise that if comic sales are low, they wait for the numbers on the trade sales to decide if a series is successful... Its sticky because a direct-release tpb does not have the advantage of a collected tpb when it comes to growing a readership overtime, spreading word of mouth, etc.

I've never heard of any full-time illustrator working exclusively on only one project. Typically they'll have several running concurrently (or another full or part time job on the side), otherwise they'd never be able to support themselves. The income from a comic would be just a part of that.

In terms of my own project, I've decided to skip the publisher phase altogether and just self-publish, so my business model rests entirely on the concept that I won't see a cent of profit until I send Diamond an invoice. People working for other publishers typically don't recieve much money at all (usually not much more than the numbers you quoted for tokyopop, sometimes NOTHING). I'm happy to work this way because I have a full-time job to support myself, others don't.

Obviously the 22-page comic is a good form for the artist or writer who wants to get paid on a monthly basis, but even then they don't earn a whole lot from it unless if they work for a major publisher. The major problem with implementing the graphic novel format is the fact that the publisher won't be able to turn a bi-monthly or quarterly profit, except if they have several staggered GN projects. The staggered GN publishing (say, one every season) would be problematic for creating and sticking to a schedule (there are delays on 22 page bi-monthlies, there'll be much worse delays on a 140+ page GN), and of course would require a lot more money invested for printing with no guarantee of covering costs. Most publishers just aren't capable or don't have the trust in their creators to think that far ahead for so many simultaneous large-scale projects (in which case, they'll prefer to buy COMPLETED gns, which is risky for the creator).

On the one hand, we have a growing readership of book-stores etc which just don't care about comics and want tpbs/gns. On the other, you have an industry and publishers who are geared towards the smaller, brisker business model with a faster turnover... Enter the small publisher and the self-publisher! ;)

[Inkthinker]

I think there's always a place and a market for the cliffhanger-serial, just as there's a place for the daily comic strip... I just think that the distribution model for both is inevitably the internet.

Someone's going to have to come up with a model sooner or later for paying good artists to do good work within the next generation distribution framework that's developing right now all around us.

I figure that it takes about 6-8 months, give or take, to produce enough content for a single volume in the graphic novel format. Adam Warren seems to be holding to that schedule, and given the calculation that an single illustrator might reasonably be expected to produce as much as a page per day to 2 every 3 days, and calling 160 pages a single volume, that's a production schedule ranging from 4-6 months just for the artwork... add another 2 for writing, finishing, marketing, printing and distribution to shelves, and whatever the hell else will happen during the course of half a year in the lives of several people, I'd say that's about as fast as we can currently expect the graphic novel model to produce.

SO... how to keep people in beer and skittles and rent and electricity for six months? At a page rate of $100 per B&W page (dirt cheap for a moderately experienced professional comics artist, to my understanding), the artist alone is ultimately going to cost someone $16,000. I don't know what the costs are for writers, editors, and the overall infrastructural costs that are also wrapped up in the ultimate production of that single collected volume, but let's go with a figure of $25,000 to cover the whole shebang. Someone correct me if that's drastically wrong.

Someone has to make that investment in order to produce comics. There's a whole host of ways in which that's done right now, through sales of fractional distributions (chapter releases, either in anthologies or individually), advertising placement in future publishing, and of course the sales of the final collected volume, but that initial investment has to exist in some percentage in order to start the production rolling... expect people to produce work either for free or for no more than a percentage of future potential returns is a model that cannot be engaged on a large scale, simply because I don't believe that enough talent exists in the field with the right combination of skills and desperation to engage in that sort of proposal at any given time... people move in and out of that zone, but they don't (and shouldn't) stay there.

How do the Europeans produce their comics? Do they have monthly anthology collections, or do they distribute in a drastically different manner? How are the artists and writers being paid, and in what sort of teams do they function?

Could be worth looking into, and I'm someone out there already is.

[mgs]

it is a difficult question, and without going into lengthy detail, I think one important note to pay attention to is the fact that most European and 'manga' do their comics as b/w art only on typically substandard paper. American comics have gotten so into color and other technical aspects that the cost as well as time to produce the comics are so high that I think it is like comparing apples and oranges in how to make a graphic novel work, while supporting the artists, writers and company involved.

While I would welcome more b/w art, I would not like for some of the sparse art that is associated with some manga, in lieu of what some American artists are able to produce. Also, what would become of the talented inkers and colorists that are well known. No, I don't like the idea of comics becoming a trade only industry, as much as some seem to believe that would solve the industry's current problems.

[Inkthinker]

I thought most European comics were in color, but perhaps there's a wealth of B&W material that just isn't being seen here.

Even if trades become the primary form of print media, there's still likely to be a demand for short bursts of content. Either through the anthology method, like Japan, or online like most webcomics. It's not hard to imagine comics being released in chapters online, and then collected in print for sale. It's already happening, just not to the organized degree that exists in more traditional publishing.

At any rate, I'm thinking that the aesthetics of comics adapt to the industry's demands... does anyone think that manga are primarly in B&W because Japanese artists are enamoured of the contour line and the ziptone? It's a result of their industry's demand for production speed and the low rate of pay inherent in the gutter levels of the industry. Work fast and cheap, or fail.

[Mladen]

I thought most European comics were in color, but perhaps there's a wealth of B&W material that just isn't being seen here.


Roughly 1% of European comics get translated into English. Its absolutely astonishing how little European product ever gets brought into American stores.

[Eumenides]

It's not uncommon for European comics series to to alternate between color and B&W: what suits the story, really; or sometimes the artist is just too lazy.

Everyone thinks copying what the European industry does would save the US comics, but you forget a few differences between both industries: in here, comics are respected; in America they're sneered at; in here we welcome women; in America women have started entire internet communities against the raging misogyny in American (superhero) comics; in here comics are sold everywhere (they even come out with newspapers); in there, you have to go to LCSs, which, from what I read, are not customer friendly.

Until you solve these problems and others, I don't believe changing to trades makes sense. Trades involve a a huge financial investment without certainty of success; the people involved, like pencillers and writers, make less money on trades and take more time to make money. And right now the loyal customer base is too small; the best American comic sells only 100,000 (in a country of 300 million people). Now Asterix can afford to come out in trade because it has built a loyal readership over decades.

But don't forget that before Asterix, Tintin, Corto Maltese, Blueberry, Lucky Luke, etc., became the hot comics franchises of Europe, they came out in anthology magazines, a few pages each week. Each series only changed to trades once the publishers realised lots of people would buy them in that format.

Do you have any reason to believe a quartely Batman 64 page trade would sell in a bookstore? Sell to anyone other than the hardcore fans who already buy the monthlies now? Just like that? Build it and they will come? Somehow, I don't think so.

[Inkthinker]

What you're not accounting for is that that the viewpoint of comics in America is changing... they're not sneered at the way they used to be. There's so much MORE than superheros, and so much that isn't in the least bit misogynist, and in fact a lot of new content celebrates strong, intelligent female leads.

Comics are becoming more common, they're beginning to hit a new stride of respect amongst people who have discovered that there's a lot more to be done with the format than BIFF! POW! ZAM! and antigravity tits, and the more that the American comics publishing industry matures, the more this should continue.

[Eumenides]

Obviously I'm here and you're there, so I wouldn't presume to know more about the US comics industry than you. But from my perspective, you're confusing Hollywood's love for a few superhero characters with general interest for comics, which seems like it can disappear any time now. I also think a lot of people still confuse maturity with vulgarity, especially the writers themselves.

I know all comics aren't misogynist, superheroe-centered and the intellectual equivalent of bubble gum. But do Love & Rockets, or Berlin, for instance, really sell that well? Are hundreds of thousands buying them in bookstores? Because they sure aren't in the direct market. Considering these series come like once every year, something tells me Lutes and the Hernandez bros haven't yet achieved the success that allows them to work on them full time.

But I hope I'm wrong. Still, I think before changing formats, you have to keep changing mentalities and distribution practices. The US comics history is fascinating in that no one has ever shot himself in the foot so many times: the Comics Code, the direct market, the creation of the fanboy (really, Marvel Zombies? How can anyone have so little self-esteem?), the shunning of female readers, an irrational love for the bad comics of the "Golden Age", the worship of supheroes in detriment of everything else. I'd put format on the bottom of the things to change list. But like I said, I'm not there.

[LewMoxinsghost]

I have nothing to add really, except to say that I was in Barcelona for a couple of days and the only Spanish comics I could find was a black and white perfect bound sex magazine. I thought it was really odd because comic shops are all over Germany, Belgium, France and Italy. Anybody have any comic book stories from Spain they'd like to share?

[Althalus]

It's not uncommon for European comics series to to alternate between color and B&W: what suits the story, really; or sometimes the artist is just too lazy.
Examples, please. Off the top of my head I can only remember "Lapinot" ("McConey") and "Monsieur Jean" as series that had both color and b/w volumes.

Or did you just mean to say that there are series in color as well as in b/w? That's very true, of course. Much more color than b/w, though (b/w is more for alternative and small press stuff, where low printing costs are important, while color is for the mainstream). And of course I'm only speaking for France/Belgium here. The other European contries don't produce as many comics as France/Belgium, by far.


in here, comics are respected; in America they're sneered at; in here we welcome women; in America women have started entire internet communities against the raging misogyny in American (superhero) comics; in here comics are sold everywhere (they even come out with newspapers); in there, you have to go to LCSs, which, from what I read, are not customer friendly.

In which country? Personally I've shopped for comics in Germany, Belgium and France and in all of those countries you generally buy comics in LCS-equivalent specialty stores. In France/Belgium you can buy them almost as well in bookstores, but only the big chains like FNAC or Furet du Nord have an adequate selection. There are more decent comic stores than bookstores with a decent comics selection, in my experience. In Germany, comic sections in bookstores are still a novelty and are stocked mainly with mangas.

And respected? Outside of France/Belgium? Not really, IMHO. And even inside, probably less than one'd think. They're more widely accepted than elsewhere and are read by a wider base of customers, but really respected by a majority as a mature medium instead of bought and accepted for entertainment? I don't know. On the other hand, I believe they're still actively working on that issue, gotta give them that.

What's true is that the superhero genre never caught on in Europe like it did in the U.S. (except for Britain, maybe, not sure). Certainly, more than 98% of all superhero comics published in Europe are imported U.S. comics and the entire genre probably doesn't account for much more than 15% of the comics published in France/Belgium (their own comics come first, then come imported mangas, then U.S. comics) or 25% of those published in Germany (manga is king here, U.S. comics second and BDs are third, German comics come after that). Interestingly, France also imports a lot of non-superhero U.S. comics, while Germany imports almost exclusively superhero U.S. comics.


But don't forget that before Asterix, Tintin, Corto Maltese, Blueberry, Lucky Luke, etc., became the hot comics franchises of Europe, they came out in anthology magazines, a few pages each week. Each series only changed to trades once the publishers realised lots of people would buy them in that format.

Okay, that's still true, although several influential magazines, like "Tintin" and "Pilote", have been gone for some decades. Other important ones, like "Spirou", "BoDoï" and "Fluide Glacial" are still going and some new ones, like "Lanfeust Mag" and "Tcho", have started more recently.

But anthology magazines are mainly used in France/Belgium. Most other European countries IIRC never had many of those. If they import BDs, they just go direct to album. Germany, for example, currently has only one anthology magazine: "Zack" (and the "Daisuki", for shojo mangas).


~Althalus

[Inkthinker]

I'm glad to see the thread isn't dead, but I'd still rather it focused on how new business models for developing original graphic novel works might develop. Companies like Del Rey, HarperCollins and Scholastic have shown an interest in publishing graphic novels, but if nobody (with commesurate skill) steps up to meet them, it'll fade with little to show for it but the works of Kazu Kibuishi and Jeff Smith.

How are artists and writers and writer-artists paid to develop work in Europe? What's the average dimensions on albums (both physical size and page length), and is hardcover an expected format? Some insight here might help develop a better market than has existed up to now.

[Althalus]

How are artists and writers and writer-artists paid to develop work in Europe?
No idea. I'd expect some kind of fixed (or paid staggered for a number of sub-packages of pages, especially with anthology magazine pre-publication in mind) advance plus royalties after the comic is published, but that's just a guess.

What's the average dimensions on albums (both physical size and page length), and is hardcover an expected format? Some insight here might help develop a better market than has existed up to now.
That, I can help you with. The album is the bande dessinee standard format in France/Belgium. It is hardover, quite large and has a page count of decidedly less than 100 pages. The most widely used page count is 48, but I've also seen albums with 56, 64 or even 84 pages. In size it most often falls into one of 2 groups: about 30 by 23 cm (11.8 by 9 inches) and about 32 by 24 cm (12.6 by 9.4 inches). The new edition of "Astérix" is even larger: 34 by 26 cm (13.4 by 10.2 inches). But that's an exception. Album prices currently can lie anywhere between €7.50 ($11.80) and €15.00 ($23.60), depending on shop discount, page count, size, publisher, label, content and age of the intended audience.

The format is also used for the current wave of "intégrales" - "complete collections" that reprint three albums into one volume of the same size at a lower price (to facilitate collecting an older series for newer buyers and to make it easier for the publishers to reprint classic series and keep complete series in print, I'd guess).

There are other formats apart from the album on the franco-belgian market, but they are younger and not as mainstream. The most common of those is a paperback of 21 by 14.5 cm (8.3 by 5.7 inches) and arbitrary thickness. It's used by Delcourt's recently started "Shampooing" label (and also doubles in the French manga world as "large format"). I think older works of "L'Association" like the original "Lapinot" were in a similar format. "Persepolis" was, too.

And of course there's the "comic book format". I don't have any book in that format in my collection (as opposed to the others I've listed), but I believe the format for translations of U.S. comics is often kept from the originals. They're only published as trades, AFAIK. At least I've never noticed any stapled translated U.S. comics so far in the 5 years that I've been shopping in Belgium.

In other European countries the situation is not as homogenous. For example in Germany the translated franco-belgian albums are often reprinted in softcover to set off the negative effect of the far smaller market by saving printing costs. German publishers are also experimenting with collections and smaller reprint sizes (like First Second or Pantheon do in the U.S. with their translations, IIRC). Original German comics are only rarely in album format anymore. It's too expensive to produce for it to sell well in our small market.


~Althalus

[Eumenides]

Examples, please. Off the top of my head I can only remember "Lapinot" ("McConey") and "Monsieur Jean" as series that had both color and b/w volumes.

For instance, Manara's Clic series: the first three volumes are in colors, the fourth is in b/w. Schuiten and Peeters' Cités Obscures series also alternates between color and b/w albums. I guess they just think that black-and-white is better suited for some stories and colors for others. Some are like Sin City and even alternate between colors and b/w in the same album.


In which country? Personally I've shopped for comics in Germany, Belgium and France and in all of those countries you generally buy comics in LCS-equivalent specialty stores. In France/Belgium you can buy them almost as well in bookstores, but only the big chains like FNAC or Furet du Nord have an adequate selection. There are more decent comic stores than bookstores with a decent comics selection, in my experience. In Germany, comic sections in bookstores are still a novelty and are stocked mainly with mangas.

FNAC has always a good selection, but here in Portugal any well-sized bookstore will have a section for comics too. Plus it's not uncommon for newspapers to sell comics too.


And respected? Outside of France/Belgium? Not really, IMHO. And even inside, probably less than one'd think. They're more widely accepted than elsewhere and are read by a wider base of customers, but really respected by a majority as a mature medium instead of bought and accepted for entertainment? I don't know. On the other hand, I believe they're still actively working on that issue, gotta give them that.

I'd say people there have less preconceived notions about comics than in America. They don't expect all comics to be rubbish, they're not surprised that a comic can be literary. In that way I believe they receive more respect.