Why doesn't Countdown work, but 52 did?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Clearly, this thread isn't for readers who are enjoying Countdown. If you're enjoying this mess, I'm happy for you so don't feel the need to defend your enjoyment here. This is for readers like myself who are scratching their heads trying to figure out why reading 52, despite Rucka boring us to death whenever Montoya showed up, was so much fun while reading Countdown is like watching paint dry.

The easy answer is probably that while Countdown was written by a bunch of B-list to C-list writers, 52 had Morrison, Johns & Waid. However, given Paul Dini's creative chops, was it more than that?

Was the fact that Countdown had to deal with current continuity, collossal misfires like Amazons Attacks and unflattering comparisons to Sinestro Corps War?

I don't think so. I think it had more to do with the lack of any interesting story or characters readers connected with. This isn't to say that Jimmy, Donna, Kyle and the rest are uninteresting characters, but they certainly were written as such in the Countdown issues I read.

[TotalWorldDomination]

The easy answer is probably that while Countdown was written by a bunch of B-list to C-list writers, 52 had Morrison, Johns & Waid. However, given Paul Dini's creative chops, was it more than that?

Was the fact that Countdown had to deal with current continuity, collossal misfires like Amazons Attacks and unflattering comparisons to Sinestro Corps War?

I don't think so. I think it had more to do with the lack of any interesting story or characters readers connected with. This isn't to say that Jimmy, Donna, Kyle and the rest are uninteresting characters, but they certainly were written as such in the Countdown issues I read.

while I agree that all 3 were issues, number 2 is the one that strikes me the most. the characters in countdown had to deal with constant inturruption and chaos from the main line (particularly on the front half).

my biggest problems are lack of focus and lack of plot. 52 had somthing happen every week, long drawn-out grand plots that developed and grew naturaly. countdown seems forced, akward, like they are making it up as they go and like they don't have enough real material to fill out a week. and I own every issue. I'm a sick man.

[drwho]

The plots in 52 progressed at a better pace.

[Christopher O]

I think it ultimately comes down to the writing team. Most of them are awful anyway, and awful plus awful doesn't usually equal great. On top of that, I don't think Dini's as good as people like to give him credit for--not his comic book work. Also, they don't have Morrison.

[Netley]

52 worked? (I kid, I kid)

[Titanium]

I think 52 being real time while Countdown being just weekly had something to do with it. The idea of a real time book was unique and interesting.

Plus there's the too many plotlines running into a rushed ending, some things seem to take too much space while others are not given enough.

[hysang]

I never thought it was as horrible as everyone else does, but I got bored after issue 2-3 or so. And 52 pissed me off, too. Ghost detectives??? Mr. Mind hyperflieswhatevers? *sigh*

But yeah, it just isn't interesting. I think maybe it's bad planning. 52 seemed fairly well thought out. This just seems to meander.

[Will.S]

This is for readers like myself who are scratching their heads trying to figure out why reading 52, despite Rucka boring us to death whenever Montoya showed up
I actually liked the Question/Montoya parts of 52 a great deal, it was among my favorite of the others alongside Steel and Booster Gold.

Was the fact that Countdown had to deal with current continuity, collossal misfires like Amazons Attacks and unflattering comparisons to Sinestro Corps War?It certainly hurt what should have been a more self contained book, especially when they make no textual reference to whatever it was they were actually referencing. The only reference that was well done was Bart's memorial service/wake.

I think it had more to do with the lack of any interesting story or characters readers connected with. This isn't to say that Jimmy, Donna, Kyle and the rest are uninteresting characters, but they certainly were written as such in the Countdown issues I read.Indeed.

[Phoney Bone]

double-post

[Phoney Bone]

Personally, I like the series. But only after some things changed:

1.) The editorial-mandated "spine of the DCU" where one had to read JLA, Amazons Attack and the like to know what was going on. Now the story can be followed easily without having to read all of the other "Coutdown"-related side projects. I don't need to read "Death of the New Gods" to know that the Fourth World is ending. I didn't have to read "Lord Havok" or "Arena" to know Monarch put together a Multiversal army. I didn't have to read any of the "Challengers" to know they were searching the Multiverse for Ray Palmer.

Now.

In the first months of "Countdown", I would've. No wonder some readers were turned off at the beginning.

2.) Lack of Keith Giffen's breakdowns. Say what you want about the writers being of a higher caliber, more cohesive, or what-the-hell-ever for "52", but it would have flopped just as badly as the early issues of "Countdown" if it weren't for Giffen holding the book together. It's no coincedence that "Countdown" had a noticeable increase in quality when Giffen came aboard as creative consultant. If his scheduling had permitted him to be on "Coutdown" from the first issue, I don't think this thread would exist.

(Oh... who am I kidding? People would have still actually convinced themselves that Mary Marvel's "Mary Teth Marvel" look would be permanent, despite Dini and Co. clearly indicating it wouldn't by having every... single... character... she ran into keep saying how wrong it was. [tounge in cheek] .)

[Crimson]

It has the talent (maybe not big name talent) but Dini (especially), McKeever and Bedard have written some great stuff.

I think it just didn't click. I think the fact 52 was self contained also helped it out greatly... it didn't spend months tying into other events, it just got on with its own story.

It was never going to be 52 though. 52 was amazing.

[Chadhulhu]

I gotta admit, I read it, but yeah 52 was 100x better. I just want Final Crisis to start.

[MWGallaher]

Countdown has had one particular flaw that has been too-rarely discussed. It's a rather subtle one, but it's disorienting and has been, I am convinced, very damaging to the final product.
Synchronization.
52's "real time" policy ensured that the various threads of the story were synchronized.
Countdown's interwoven storylines were entirely unsynchronized. We'd open an issue with, say, Mary Marvel talking to Billy on the Rock of Eternity, then follow a couple of days' worth of Piper/Trickster action, then one minute's worth of Karate Kid/Una conversation, and close with the conclusion of Mary's 30-minute talk with Billy.
In any conventional comic book, the reader comfortably can assume, absent any prompting (such as indications that a scene is a flashback), that page 5 occurs after page 4 (or at the same time as page 4). You can't do that as a Countdown reader.
This lack of synchronization would be no problem if the various storylines were segregated into independent chapters (presented as if Countdown were an anthology), but Countdown mixed them all together in a single story, shifting (seemingly) randomly between the threads in any given issue. At the weekly pace, the detrimental effects were magnified, as one thread would leap by days from one issue to the next, while another pick up directly from a cliffhanger.
This problem was then compounded by (what I consider) sloppy writing, such as portraying Ray Palmer as having been on Earth-51 for several years, while the immediately-preceeding issues had suggested that the Challengers were missing him by mere hours on each Earth they landed on.

[brundlefly]

52 benefited greatly from the combination of a stronger team of writers (Morrison/Rucka/Johns/Waid) and, imo, far more compelling characters (Lex Luthor, Black Adam, Ralph Dibny, Montoya & Question, Steel, Booster) than Countdown has. And even then, 52 had a lot of flaws & plot holes and seemed to be spinning its wheels much of the time. I think that's why those same flaws became so glaringly noticeable early on in this second weekly go-round. Countdown's art, plotting, and dialogue often all seem pretty weak & scattershot and the bland central characters (Jimmy Olsen, Jason Todd, Superbrat-Prime, Karate Kid, Mary Marvel, Brother Eye) are nowhere near the quality of the character cast of 52. There have been some individual scenes and issues that I enjoyed, but as an overall series I have not been impressed with Countdown at all and am waiting for it to finally just end and for DC to move on to Morrison's Final Crisis.

[jade_nova]

52 had a purpose, to tell what happened in the year between the end of Infinite Crisis and "One Year Later". Countdown just seems to be to tell a bunch of random stories and then at the end connect them all together.

[carabas]

I think that while most of the reasons above have at least some value, the most important one is a very basic failing in story-telling.

Morrison, Rucka, Waid, Johns: that's at least 1,5 Allan Moore. Paul Dini on the other hand is a lesser version of Bruce Timm, with very little actual experience in writing comic books.

In my opinion, the reason Countdown failed is that we weren't given any reasons to care about any of these characters.
I don't think I'd ever even read anything with Will Magnus in it before Countdown. Really couldn't care less about Booster gold, and was only marginally interested in Ralph Dibney. The writers of '52' made me care about their characters. They made me give a damn about what was going on.

Dini on the other hand utterly failed to engage me on an emotional level in any of the multitude of Countdown plotlines. Mary Marvel being seduced by the drak side could have been interesting, but it was played so heavy handed it made Anakin out of the blue slaughtering the Jedi kids seem downright subtle. I generally like Jimmy Olsen, especially his Kirby period, but the whole thing was so badly written, and the Mr. Action bits so mindshreddingly silly, that I pretty much skipped over those bits after the first two months or so.
Karate Kid and Una? The ultimate cyphers, with not even a picogram of characterisation between them. Why would I care if KK's got a virus? He's a just a walking plot device with the personality of a blank space.

Donna? I like her. Kyle? Big fan. Todd? I really loved him durig Winick's run on Batman. But they just acted like cardboard cutout zombies in Countdown. Ray Palmer? Please. They can't even get me interested in the characters that actually are in the book, nevermind searching for missing ones.

I can put up with plot holes. I can put up with bad art. I can put up with dfelays. Just as long as a competent writers makes me care about his characters. Which Dini and his accomplices have failed to do at every step of the way.

[mightiness]

To me the biggest problem with Countdown is DC's attempt to capitalize on it with a bunch of badly written mini's to go along with. With the exception of Death of the New Gods the other mini's just seem to be poorly conceived and put out just to capture more sales. Most of them and Countdown included has suffered for such wide varying degrees of quality with the art. All of this hurts the product. Their concern should be to put out the very best product not trying to put out the most product. Just my opinion.

[Will.S]

To me the biggest problem with Countdown is DC's attempt to capitalize on it with a bunch of badly written mini's to go along with. With the exception of Death of the New Gods the other mini's just seem to be poorly conceived and put out just to capture more sales. Most of them and Countdown included has suffered for such wide varying degrees of quality with the art. All of this hurts the product. Their concern should be to put out the very best product not trying to put out the most product. Just my opinion.
The Lord Havok and the Extremists, Countdown Arena, and the Search for Ray Palmer books are what you describing and I had the most problems with. I didn't bother buying them because they had absolutely no consequence on Countdown proper because all of the actual plots that concerned them were dealt with in Countdown.

Monarch's Army and the Extremists? Destroyed.

And the search for Ray Palmer? Done in Countdown.

was the journey there even all that compelling in the specials such as the Gotham by Gaslight one?

[Ian J.N.]

52 is a world building book--a year in the life of the DC Universe--so it works well having that sprawling set of diverse characters, themes, and stories. The plotlines are only loosely connected, but taken together they paint a picture of the overall world they inhabit. It's like that "22 Short Films About Springfield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/22_Short_Films_About_Springfield)" episode of The Simpsons.

Countdown, however, is not a world building book. It's about, um, counting down to Final Crisis. So, while it's an interesting idea having Mary Marvel explore her dark side, or Jimmy Olsen attempt a super hero career... they're non sequitur to the premise. Consequently, Countdown comes off as a big mess.

What they should've done, I think, is made "Darkseid's chess game for control of the multiverse" explicit all the way through. Show each concrete manipulation of the characters' lives, and the subsequent results. That would've given the storylines unity and purpose. Instead, it's only now at the end that we learn what it was all about.

[Shellhead]

Was the fact that Countdown had to deal with current continuity, collossal misfires like Amazons Attacks and unflattering comparisons to Sinestro Corps War?

I don't think so. I think it had more to do with the lack of any interesting story or characters readers connected with. This isn't to say that Jimmy, Donna, Kyle and the rest are uninteresting characters, but they certainly were written as such in the Countdown issues I read.

I think that it's both of these things.

1. 52 worked well as a weekly book because it happened during a year otherwise not directly covered in DC comics. This is crucial, because it freed the writers to tell stories in the overall DCU without forcing each issue to tie directly to current crossover events or even more regular stuff happening in the monthly comics. Countdown is trying to do more than just fit in with the current DCU, it is struggling to tie into each Countdown mini and crossover. Since those are monthly titles, Countdown can either spoil upcoming events, trail uselessly behind those events, or tread water in every subplot for three out of four issues. None of those approaches are likely to result in good storytelling.

2. While any good writer can potentially make a character interesting, and there were definitely several A-list writers on 52, the characters in 52 were inherently more interesting than those in Countdown. Let's do a compartive match-up...

Which classic Superman character is more interesting, Lex Luthor or Jimmy Olson?

Which Marvel family character is more interesting, Black Adam or Mary Marvel?

Which street-level character is more interesting, The Question or a former Robin that fans voted to kill years ago?

Which former Teen Titan is more interesting, Starfire or Donna Troy? (In years past, I would have said Donna, but too many retcons have messed her up hopelessly.)

Which scientist hero has been more popular (and presumably more interesting) in modern times, Steel or the Atom?

Which cocky former JLA member is more interesting, Booster Gold or Kyle Rayner? (I say Booster, given that he was an original concept, while Kyle was nothing but a young substitute for Hal.)

And on a more fundamental level, 52 was a set of interlocking stories, a showcase of a wide range of interesting DC concepts, and a foundation for the next wave of creativity. Sadly, that last part didn't work out, as most OYL changes fell flat. Still, compare that with Countdown, which seems to serve primarily as a clumsy marketing tool to generate hype for unworthy projects like Amazons Attack and Lord Havoc & the Extremists. Come to think of it, I think that my least favorite part of 52 was that awful World War III spinoff. The transitions between 52 and WWIII weren't good, either.

[Will.S]

Come to think of it, I think that my least favorite part of 52 was that awful World War III spinoff. The transitions between 52 and WWIII weren't good, either.
I agree that was the only rocky point in 52 since WWIII spin offs were so tacked on and were made only to tie up loose ends before OYL. But I still think 52 worked well enough that you didn't read those spin offs anyway, the issue where Black Adam is stopped tells the reader all the info they really need.

[carabas]

And on a more fundamental level, 52 was a set of interlocking stories, a showcase of a wide range of interesting DC concepts, and a foundation for the next wave of creativity.Yeah, but Countdown in theory also is all of these. The various diverse plotlines of Countdown are more interlocking than those of 52 since they all spring from Darkseid and Solomon's manipulations. Showcase of a wide range of interesting DC concepts? Countdown has everything from Amazons, New Gods, multiple Earths, streetlevel characters, the Newsboy Legion, an interdimansional conqueror, the Monitors, and more. It's just that the writers failed completely to present this to the readers as a palatable story.
If the exact same story concept had been written by the 52 crew, I'm sure that the result would have been much more cohesive and engaging.

Dini was simply overwhelmed by his set task. He's bitten of more than he can chew.

[Jack Zodiac]

Two words: Ambush. Bug.

[JCAll]

Lobo. That's gotta be it. If he had just randomly shown up and eatten Jason Todd Countdown would have been one of the best books o recent memory.

I kid, of course. But only a little. It really is the characters that are driving it down. Piper/Trickster stories were few and far between. The only one of the new Challengers I liked was Bob and they ruined that. Superboy Prime and Monarch was great, but that was over too quick. I've been focusing on Darkseid after that but his chess game with the Monitor apparently ended without going anywhere. And now there's nothing to look forward too at all. Brother Eye and Karate Kid? Jimmy Olsen spinning his wheels? Even more Jason Todd!?

Screw it. At least there are only 7 issues left.

[MWGallaher]

The Monitors are a big part of the problem. They are inarguably a major element of the series, but we never really know them at all. They're almost indistinguishable at the start, then they morph into unique beings (why? I'm still not clear on that). At the turning point, when "Solomon" 's plan is unveiled, we're treated to Monitor mythology that means absolutely nothing to the reader ("Prime Monitor"?). There's no way to emotionally invest in characters like Solomon because there's no way to know what they want or why they want it. He can say he wants to "become the Source", or be the "Prime Monitor", but why? Can we identify with a desire to become a fiery hand writing inscrutible messages in the ether, or eliminating all of our fellow race to become the only one of our kind? And what little we're given to go on--the premise that the Monitors want to preserve the Multiverse--is yanked out from under us when the only two Monitors with a shred of personality are shown to have been working toward a different goal entirely. They can just do whatever the hell the story calls for them to do, and we've got no basis to say "Yes they would" or "No they wouldn't." Any damn thing can happen in this series and we can't justify any objections on the basis of violation of character, because, for the Monitors especially, there is no character. They spend centuries breeding the Forerunners as their warriors, then exterminate them when one Forerunner defects. They spend centuries breeding the Forerunners as their warriors when they already have a single warrior who can exterminate all of the Forerunners. They hop worlds seeking the savior of the multiverse, then attempt to kill him and bring on Armageddon. They all join behind the rally to eliminate world-hoppers, then turn on the one who encouraged them to eliminate the world-hoppers, who, it turns out, was actually encouraging the world-hopping in the first place.
Let's face it, the Monitors were ill-defined, poorly-portrayed characters, and yet they are the anchors of the story.

[carabas]

The Monitors are a big part of the problem. They are inarguably a major element of the series, but we never really know them at all ... Let's face it, the Monitors were ill-defined, poorly-portrayed characters, and yet they are the anchors of the story.That's exactly what I've been saying. It's not the Monitors, it's the entire cast that suffers from this fatal flaw.
The Monitors are a critical part of the story. so is Ray Palmer. So is Mary Marvel. And a bunch more. But these main players are not defined. We are not given a reason to care even a little bit about what happens to them or about what they are doing. And that is a failure of the writer and nobody else.

[SpaceBooger]

The plots in 52 progressed at a better pace.

I think this is the main reason.
Say what you want about the first couple of issues of countdown, but there was a positive: the issues spent a decent amount of time working on building characters and their stories.

Because of the good characterizations I stuck through all the tie-in mess with amazons attack... remember how much we all fussed with WWIII during 52? In the end we liked 52 regardless because of the strong stories.

The last couple issues of countdown have been moving at an unbelievable pace. Too much is hapening too quickly with little to no detail explaining most of it. If not for these forums I, a reader of the DCU starting with COIE, would still have not got some stuff from the last couple issues.

[chicagokmc]

I think a few of you hit it on the head:

1. 52 was backwards focused while Countdown is focused on the present and future. In large part, we knew the results of 52. We knew Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman were back at the forefront of the DCU. We knew how other things ended, 52 just gave us the "how", and for the most part the end felt like the end. Countdown, while having to balance with other DCU goings-on, isn't probably going to be the end of the story since this seems to be one long lead-in to Final Crisis. So we'll have invested a year's worth of time only to get the lead in to the big story.

2. Also as stated, good writers with good stories can make anyone interesting and make us compelled to read. Although 52 focused a lot on the DCU heavy hitters, it did a good job of taking B/C-level characters like Montoya, Question, Booster Gold, Steel and keeping our interest with good stories. Not so much the case with Countdown - I really haven't been pulled into the stories of Harley, Mary Marvel, Trickster, Piper, etc.

[Captain Smith]

When universes with 100 millions of galaxies and stars have their fate decided by Jimmy Olsen lusting after a bug woman in the shower - you know you have a crappy plot.

COIE had some scope to it. This is just a sales pitch with an incoherent plot and cosmology.

Sinestro Wars made far more sense.

[Jack]

It all boils down to the writing and the bad decisions made about the writing. I don't know whether they used the same writing model as 52 and it failed because the talent was inferior, or if they used a different model and the talent they had wasn't allowed to shine through, but clearly something fundamental broke down in the process.

One thing that I think helped 52 a lot was that while the stories crossed over from time to time, like when Montoya and Question went to Kahndaq, the creators didn't feel the need to tie them all together in the end. When Steel shut Luthor down, he didn't need Booster Gold's help, and when Ralph Dibny sacrificed himself to imprison Neron he wasn't saved at the last minute by Black Adam. Each story thread worked on its own, which is something that Countdown has never really managed.

[OverMaster]

Morrison, Rucka, Waid, Johns: that's at least 1,5 Allan Moore. Paul Dini on the other hand is a lesser version of Bruce Timm, with very little actual experience in writing comic books.

Morrison is the only one of those 4 who comes anywhere above Alan Moore's ankle, in terms of writing stature.

And comparing Dini to Timm is like comparing apples to oranges. Timm is mostly an illustrator and overseer, with even less experience at comics writing than Dini. Dini is more of a hands-on writer. Personally, I think his problem in Countdown was he allowed himself to be swallowed by editorial plans. His current Detective run certainly proves he still has what it takes when he is allowed more freedom.

[OverMaster]

EDIT: Post to unclog the one that won't show up.

[The Shadow]

I think that it's both of these things.

1. 52 worked well as a weekly book because it happened during a year otherwise not directly covered in DC comics. This is crucial, because it freed the writers to tell stories in the overall DCU without forcing each issue to tie directly to current crossover events or even more regular stuff happening in the monthly comics. Countdown is trying to do more than just fit in with the current DCU, it is struggling to tie into each Countdown mini and crossover. Since those are monthly titles, Countdown can either spoil upcoming events, trail uselessly behind those events, or tread water in every subplot for three out of four issues. None of those approaches are likely to result in good storytelling.

2. While any good writer can potentially make a character interesting, and there were definitely several A-list writers on 52, the characters in 52 were inherently more interesting than those in Countdown. Let's do a compartive match-up...

Which classic Superman character is more interesting, Lex Luthor or Jimmy Olson?

Which Marvel family character is more interesting, Black Adam or Mary Marvel?

Which street-level character is more interesting, The Question or a former Robin that fans voted to kill years ago?

Which former Teen Titan is more interesting, Starfire or Donna Troy? (In years past, I would have said Donna, but too many retcons have messed her up hopelessly.)

Which scientist hero has been more popular (and presumably more interesting) in modern times, Steel or the Atom?

Which cocky former JLA member is more interesting, Booster Gold or Kyle Rayner? (I say Booster, given that he was an original concept, while Kyle was nothing but a young substitute for Hal.)

And on a more fundamental level, 52 was a set of interlocking stories, a showcase of a wide range of interesting DC concepts, and a foundation for the next wave of creativity. Sadly, that last part didn't work out, as most OYL changes fell flat. Still, compare that with Countdown, which seems to serve primarily as a clumsy marketing tool to generate hype for unworthy projects like Amazons Attack and Lord Havoc & the Extremists. Come to think of it, I think that my least favorite part of 52 was that awful World War III spinoff. The transitions between 52 and WWIII weren't good, either.

I agree with this entire post (except the part about Kyle being a replacement for Hal).

[carabas]

And comparing Dini to Timm is like comparing apples to oranges. Timm is mostly an illustrator and overseer, with even less experience at comics writing than Dini. Dini is more of a hands-on writer. Personally, I think his problem in Countdown was he allowed himself to be swallowed by editorial plans. His current Detective run certainly proves he still has what it takes when he is allowed more freedom. I can only say that I have liked all of Bruce Timm's comics work (except for Vampirella which I haven,'t read). And I have liked almost none of Dini's. I find his Detective comics average and riddled with plot holes at best. They read like Animated Batman episodes that have had five minutes cut from them because they overran.

[G. Wayne]

52, on the whole, seemed to flow better. It wasn’t perfect, but it was told well.

Countdown, on the other hand, is a mess in all kinds of ways. Beware, spoilers below.

-Mary Marvel would get 3 pages of story. Then you wouldn’t see anything of her for an issue and a half. Then she gets another 2 pages and disappears again. And… uh, Surprise! She’s redeemed!

-The storylines gave little indication of being interconnected, until they were pretty much thrown together. Desaad orchestrated Piper and Tricksters ordeal because Piper can funnel the Anti-Life Equation (?!) and Darkseid put 3rd world energy into Jimmy Olsen because he’s Superman’s pal (again, ?!) and… why did Brother Eye go to Apocalypse again? Oh, and Bob the Monitor was actually using the Challengers all along! And Solomon the Monitor was apparently playing cosmic chess with Darkseid all along too.

-They devoted an entire mini to Monarch building his army so said army could be dispersed off panel in Countdown?

-Speaking of Monarch, the whole Captain Atom to Monarch transition is still a little iffy at best.

-Equus was lame the last time he was used. Guess what? Still lame. Possibly even worse.

-The art was not very good at all at points.

-This is a minor thing, but didn’t Harley Quinn have “powers” before? Y’know, the enhanced agility and the like she got from Poison Ivy when she first showed up?

-Presentation didn’t mesh chronologically with the rest of the DCU. One week in Sinestro War, Kyle Rayner is getting possessed by Parallax, the next week in Countdown he’s in a new costume palling around with Donna Troy and friends?

-And maybe it’s just me, but has *anything* touched on where Supermanboy Prime was between the Sinestro War and Countdown?

[Jack Zodiac]

Actually, I think the "surprise" was that Bob the Monitor was really Solomon, the Monitor that killed Duela Dent in the first issue. I think. But yeah, it seems like everything was pretty much just thrown together at the end, which leads me to believe that the writing team wasn't exactly that well coordinated at any point in the project, let alone right from the beginning like the guys from 52 seemed to be. Solid on all other points, though.

[JCAll]

-And maybe it’s just me, but has *anything* touched on where Supermanboy Prime was between the Sinestro War and Countdown?

Didn't he get a huge power-up from the Guardian energy he absorbed, and spend the time torturing Mxyzptlk for a way home/more power?

[DMike]

Actually, I think the "surprise" was that Bob the Monitor was really Solomon, the Monitor that killed Duela Dent in the first issue. I think. But yeah, it seems like everything was pretty much just thrown together at the end, which leads me to believe that the writing team wasn't exactly that well coordinated at any point in the project, let alone right from the beginning like the guys from 52 seemed to be. Solid on all other points, though.

Bob wasn't Solomon, Solomon killed Bob on Earth 51 when he was trying to absorb the others and become the Omni-Monitor or Monitor Prime or something like that. Bob was always Bob, he just lied to the Challengers about what they were actually finding Ray for.

[NotSuper]

Didn't he get a huge power-up from the Guardian energy he absorbed, and spend the time torturing Mxyzptlk for a way home/more power?
Pretty much. Before that he was probably checking out all the other Earths.

[PanzerMega]

Bob wasn't Solomon, Solomon killed Bob on Earth 51 when he was trying to absorb the others and become the Omni-Monitor or Monitor Prime or something like that. Bob was always Bob, he just lied to the Challengers about what they were actually finding Ray for.

I'm not actually reading Countdown, but it's explanations like this that give me NO incentive to read the book. It doesn't sound exciting at all.

[Sophisticated_Gamer]

Clearly, this thread isn't for readers who are enjoying Countdown. If you're enjoying this mess, I'm happy for you so don't feel the need to defend your enjoyment here. This is for readers like myself who are scratching their heads trying to figure out why reading 52, despite Rucka boring us to death whenever Montoya showed up, was so much fun while reading Countdown is like watching paint dry.

The easy answer is probably that while Countdown was written by a bunch of B-list to C-list writers, 52 had Morrison, Johns & Waid. However, given Paul Dini's creative chops, was it more than that?

Was the fact that Countdown had to deal with current continuity, collossal misfires like Amazons Attacks and unflattering comparisons to Sinestro Corps War?

I don't think so. I think it had more to do with the lack of any interesting story or characters readers connected with. This isn't to say that Jimmy, Donna, Kyle and the rest are uninteresting characters, but they certainly were written as such in the Countdown issues I read.

I agree with that, the only characters I liked were Trickster and the Piper and the managed to kill one of them off :(

[G. Wayne]

Didn't he get a huge power-up from the Guardian energy he absorbed, and spend the time torturing Mxyzptlk for a way home/more power?

I was referring to the point between the Sinestro War and his first appearance in Countdown, where he theoretically decides something like, "Hey, I feel even STRONGER now! Time to put on a black suit and start bustin' stuff up!"

[Dorsai]

I am not a heavy reader of DC books. Primarily, my DC reading over the last year or so has been limited to a couple of ongoings, a few of minis, 52 and Countdown.

Although 52 dealt with a lot of various heroes, I never really felt like I was out in the cold about much. It was very accessible for me and occasional trips to Wikipedia only added to the enjoyment. Most of the storylines drew my interest, there was some very interesting character development (really enjoyed the Question storyline), and although I thought the ending was anti-climatic, overall it was a good read. I then read the slugfest that was WWIII and decided I was onboard for the next weekly.

Countdown has been disappointing in that it seems to require more knowledge of continuity to enjoy. So much of the characters and stories seemed like "inside jokes" and I didn't find it nearly as accessible. As an example...

In 52, not knowing about the Question, Montoya, the Black family, or the Marvel family didn't really slow me down. Simply knowing that Red Tornado was an android and a hero was enough to give his part some meaning. The scientists all collected on the island had a Watchman feel and one really didn't need to know all of their roles in continuity to enjoy that storyline. From what I recall, there was something interesting happening every issue that significantly moved the story in one direction or another.

In Countdown, it was assumed you knew the history of all of the characters. That seems a bit of a gamble when you want to get new readers to buy a weekly book. Also, the storlines I found most interesting seemed to be the least played. I was not as drawn in by the search for Ray Palmer as I was with Piper and Trickster for example.

In 52, most things seemed connected. Even if one couldn't see the connection, you could get the sense that each character and story was affected by something else that was going on. 52 seemed a lot like a conspiracy theory that had each level peeled away until you were left with the root of the issue. Countdown seems more like a bunch of unrelated stories that somehow got shoehorned into the same event.

I also tended to get a feeling that 52 was always looking forward to the end of the story. Countdown always seemed to just be looking at next week. It did not seem nearly as ambitious.