Final Crisis- Delays, Artists and Fill-Ins?

[Magneto Rocks]

This is based off some of the stuff seen in recent LitG columns and on Jinxworld and elsewhere- I haven't seen a thread for this, but if there is, I ask the mods to feel free to merge.

Anyway, what are the current thoughts as to what's happening with Final Crisis? It seems VERY clear that the book is hitting some kind of problems scheduling-wise; it's releasing as late as humanly possible in May, Jones is only starting 2 apparantly, and both Brian Bendis and Tom Brevoort have suggested it is having difficulties, with Bendis inferring it would be delayed and Brevoort inferring it would be having fill-in artists.

Myself, I love Jones art, but I'm tired at this stage. IF DC have woefully ill-prepared yet again, I just don't care- stick in fill-in artists and be done with it. Normally I'd say quality over scheduling, but we've endured over a year of build-up for this event; if that wasn't time to get a schedule together, I've no idea what is.

[drwho]

Sounds like another great masterpiece courtesy of Dan Didio. ;)

[Paul Newell]

So, what of Brian Bendis’ comments on “Final Crisis" last week (http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?column=litg&article=3011), "in 2012 when final crisis is done, we'll see what's what" interpreted by many as stating that the book is very late. This seemed to be confirmed from a number of sources. But one had more details.
I’m told Grant Morrison turned in the issue one script back in November. However, it was not exactly what has been previously discussed and didn’t bounce off from the end of “Countdown" as intended. It also goes off on what can only be described as Morrisonian tangents. You know, what readers call “the good bits."
So Dan DiDio flew to Scotland after Thanksgiving to discuss possibilities further. I understand the script is unchanged, but it was from those discussions that the 50 cent “DC Universe" #0, shipping the week after Free Comic Book Day, emerged. Co-written with Geoff Johns, it will keep any "Countdown" continuity issues out of the “Final Crisis" series and prepare the way... very much the John The Baptist of comic books.
Geoff Johns is also writing a Final Crisis-spinoff "Legion" mini series drawn by George Perez that will slot into all of this very nicely.
Artist JG Jones is currently working on issue two. I've been told that if there are production delays, rather than throw in "Countdown"/"Infinite Crisis" style fill-in artists, or cause "Civil War" style sales-harming delays on the book, expect the pages by JG Jones to reduce for subsequent issues with back up stories with the DCU #0 artists Scriver, Pacheco and Daniel to replace them. Which means the book may extend a couple of issues to fit in all of Morrison’s story, the retailers get their fill, and everyone wins...
Apart from Brian Bendis.
Sounds like, if anyone is to blame, it's Grant Morrison...And Didio is trying to keep both the fans and the writer happy. At least I'd prefer to see the script to issue #1 unchanged rather than suffer editorial interference.

[Lex]

It's important to remember that Lying in the Gutters is a rumor column.

If it turns out to be true. there was one part that excited me. The part where Morrison wrote the first issue without any connection for Countdown. I like the sound of that and dearly hope it's true. I want Final Crisis to be Morrison's story and not DiDio's.

[drwho]

It's important to remember that Lying in the Gutters is a rumor column.

If it turns out to be true. there was one part that excited me. The part where Morrison wrote the first issue without any connection for Countdown. I like the sound of that and dearly hope it's true. I want Final Crisis to be Morrison's story and not DiDio's.

I think it is wishful thinking to believe that this is just gonna be Grant's story. A major story with no editorial involvement. That is something I'd be surprised to see.

[Jack Zodiac]

Myself, I love Jones art, but I'm tired at this stage. IF DC have woefully ill-prepared yet again, I just don't care- stick in fill-in artists and be done with it. Normally I'd say quality over scheduling, but we've endured over a year of build-up for this event; if that wasn't time to get a schedule together, I've no idea what is.

No, you haven't. Nothing about Countdown is supposed to be the building blocks for Final Crisis, so sayeth Grant. Thank God, too. That book's !@#$ing horrendous.

So, with that in mind, I'm perfectly willing to wait for the book. If it goes bi-monthly, that'd be just peachy with me, so long as the finished product is a well-written, well-drawn, entertaining story.

[Netley]

I think it is wishful thinking to believe that this is just gonna be Grant's story. A major story with no editorial involvement. That is something I'd be surprised to see.

I had heard he might be following up ideas he layed out in Seven Soldiers (which I don't know if I fully understood all of them haha). Does anyone know what Final Crisis will be about?

It seems like they keep shuffling it more and more to keep it almost completely unconnected to Countdown (which is fine by me), and now it's rumored to be delayed already. Just let Grant tell his story, DC!

I haven't seriously read a DC title for a year or so, and I just want something reminiscent of the first half of Morrison's JLA run! That issue where Martian Manhunter shape-shifts his brain to see the world as the Joker does after being trapped in a Joker-built maze! Cool ideas like that!

[drwho]

If its anything like seven soldiers blehh as a whole is all I can say. Grant tying everything together was a mess in the end.

[Babylon23]

There's a scheduled break of a month in the middle of the story (not sure if it's after issue 3 or 4). Maybe Jones will be able to catch up then.

Either way, delays seem to be the order of the day when it comes to the Big 2 and their crossovers. I'm a little sick of it, whichc is why I've made the move to trades.

[Will.S]

Delays on big events shouldn't surprise anyone at this point, they're on par for the course but both companies really suck at giving artists enough lead time for the projects. I think Marvel this year will be shipping Secret Invasion on time with no problem given Bendis and Yu's speed so they're practically done.

Meanwhile J.G. is on issue two? That's not good, although I think its a tough as hell job since he's being given a ton of characters to draw and he's redesigning the New Gods at the same time on top of drawing from a Grant Morrison script no less. I hope they can make it with the "break" and all but I'm not expected it to ship on time either.

[Netley]

Delays on big events shouldn't surprise anyone at this point, they're on par for the course but both companies really suck at giving artists enough lead time for the projects. I think Marvel this year will be shipping Secret Invasion on time with no problem given Bendis and Yu's speed so they're practically done.

Meanwhile J.G. is on issue two? That's not good, although I think its a tough as hell job since he's being given a ton of characters to draw and he's redesigning the New Gods at the same time on top of drawing from a Grant Morrison script no less. I hope they can make it with the "break" and all but I'm not expected it to ship on time either.

I think you're totally right. The way things are shaping up, Secret Invasion will be a smooth 8 month flow of twists and turns, while Final Crisis will start building some really great ideas but take a couple hiatuses and maybe take a year or more to complete, losing a lot of momentum along the way. I think Marvel has learned from the Civil War and Frank Cho latenesses and is more than ready for SI. However DC had to reshuffle their deck, so to speak, due to fan reaction to Countdown and got caught behind schedule. (Of course I hope I'm wrong about DC.)

[Phoney Bone]

It's important to remember that Lying in the Gutters is a rumor column.

On top of that, the rumor is amber-lit.

Amber means the source may be lacking, or have a clear bias.

Still... I'd like to think that not only are they taking their time with it, but adding even MORE to the story! It would make Crisis on Infinite Earths seem like Legends in story length.

[Jack Zodiac]

I think you're totally right. The way things are shaping up, Secret Invasion will be a smooth 8 month flow of twists and turns, while Final Crisis will start building some really great ideas but take a couple hiatuses and maybe take a year or more to complete, losing a lot of momentum along the way. I think Marvel has learned from the Civil War and Frank Cho latenesses and is more than ready for SI. However DC had to reshuffle their deck, so to speak, due to fan reaction to Countdown and got caught behind schedule. (Of course I hope I'm wrong about DC.)

Eh, I doubt Secret Invasion is gonna be all that great either way, whether it comes out every month, every two weeks, or wheneverthehell it pleases. Yu's art's just not good at all for superheroes, and I'm pretty sick of Bendis these days. He's barely mildly entertaining anymore. Even when he's writing stuff that isn't MTO for whatever next big stupid event Marvel's got goin'. And the fact that the whole Skrull joke stopped being funny long, long before this event was even on the horizon ain't helpin'.

However, I do think DC (and Marvel) need to stop pumping up these big events a year ahead of time and rushing both their artists and writers to get 'em done. I understand it's an editor's job to make sure a book comes out on time, but when it's a book you want representing the quality of your company as a whole, you want it to not look like !@#$ or read like !@#$.

[Will.S]

Eh, I doubt Secret Invasion is gonna be all that great either way, whether it comes out every month, every two weeks, or wheneverthehell it pleases. Yu's art's just not good at all for superheroes, and I'm pretty sick of Bendis these days. He's barely mildly entertaining anymore. Even when he's writing stuff that isn't MTO for whatever next big stupid event Marvel's got goin'. And the fact that the whole Skrull joke stopped being funny long, long before this event was even on the horizon ain't helpin'.
I'm sort of the opposite.

I have a good feeling that Secret Invasion is going to be good since Bendis had invested so much into the whole storyline but there's potential for Final Crisis's grandiose story to overshadow Secret Invasion similar to how Infinite Crisis was bigger in scope than House of M. Plus Yu's art is going to look a lot less sketchier/sloppy with an inker and Laura Martin on colors, the preview showed a lot of promise.

[4thHorseman]

Eh, I doubt Secret Invasion is gonna be all that great either way, whether it comes out every month, every two weeks, or wheneverthehell it pleases. Yu's art's just not good at all for superheroes, and I'm pretty sick of Bendis these days. He's barely mildly entertaining anymore. Even when he's writing stuff that isn't MTO for whatever next big stupid event Marvel's got goin'. And the fact that the whole Skrull joke stopped being funny long, long before this event was even on the horizon ain't helpin'.

Agreed. Even the whole idea behind Secret Invasion seems ho hum at best. I'm tired of seeing explanations for poor storytelling or that "plot twist" by clones and shapeshifters...oh, but no, in Secret Invasion...you get LOTS of shapeshifters to explain the last several years of certain plot points. It just seems like an overused concept for a big event.

However, I do think DC (and Marvel) need to stop pumping up these big events a year ahead of time and rushing both their artists and writers to get 'em done. I understand it's an editor's job to make sure a book comes out on time, but when it's a book you want representing the quality of your company as a whole, you want it to not look like !@#$ or read like !@#$.

I've always believed that no promotion should start until the book is fully written (let the writer/editor get the full extent of the story) at least for major events and even have the art started on. I don't understand why you would set a date for a book that doesn't even have a script at least. DC was really disappointing with Infinite Crisis due to it's inability to have a stable artist making deadlines along with the rushed story. I really don't want he same thing to happen with Final Crisis.

[Will.S]

Agreed. Even the whole idea behind Secret Invasion seems ho hum at best. I'm tired of seeing explanations for poor storytelling or that "plot twist" by clones and shapeshifters...oh, but no, in Secret Invasion...you get LOTS of shapeshifters to explain the last several years of certain plot points. It just seems like an overused concept for a big event.
Well you either dig the concept of skrulls or you don't.

If the impersonations of villains and heroes have a solid foundation for pushing Secret Invasion ahead I'll be happy with that. I just want to see how the skrulls plan on taking on a whole planet full of superheroes and villains who have a massive amount of firepower and resources. The skrulls better have to have more aces behind their sleeves other than being able to shape shift. They need more numbers, firepower, and tech because if they don't have the resources and all they do is impersonate people then they're f'ed but it's hard to believe that there isn't a huge plan coming from them to take over.

DC was really disappointing with Infinite Crisis due to it's inability to have a stable artist making deadlines along with the rushed story. I really don't want he same thing to happen with Final Crisis.
I was really disappointed with that, Infinite Crisis should have been Phil's book instead of sharing it with all those other artists. Hell I was even bothered that George Perez came into do art on it; as great as George is, I just wanted it to be all Phil.

[Jack Zodiac]

Well you either dig the concept of skrulls or you don't.

Oh, no, I dig Skrulls. I love Skrulls. I don't love half-assed writing, and so far, I've found all of Bendis' build-up for the Skrull invasion very half-assed. It's become a joke already, by his own admission within his writing and interviews.

[carabas]

The concept behind Secret Invasion has a lot of potential. But then the concept behind Civil War was absolutely brilliant, and they screwed that up good and proper. Even the basic idea behind House Of Meh had merit, but the actual story was awful. World War Hulk? Same thing.
Plus, none of these events had a proper ending, they all were continued in many, many books.
Which is the most important reason I will not spend any money on Secret Invasion, even though I really love Skrulls. I simply do not want to spend another €100+ on a story that most likely will be continued in Marvel's next event.

[Will.S]

Oh, no, I dig Skrulls. I love Skrulls. I don't love half-assed writing, and so far, I've found all of Bendis' build-up for the Skrull invasion very half-assed.
What in particular did you think was half assed?

Plus, none of these events had a proper ending, they all were continued in many, many books.
Which is the most important reason I will not spend any money on Secret Invasion, even though I really love Skrulls. I simply do not want to spend another €100+ on a story that most likely will be continued in Marvel's next event.While Civil War factored a bit into Secret Invasion, SI isn't really a a follow-up to Civil War because the build up to it was done before Civil War was around and I think the skrull threat ends at SI.

Very few events are self contained and that really can't be helped given the serial nature of comics. The closest something came to being self contained as an event was the Ultimate Galactus Trilogy and even that was continued into the Ultimate Vision book. On the other hand New Frontier was not an event but has a definite beginning, middle, and end and has a huge cast of DC characters. CoIE, Infinite Crisis, Amazons Attack, the Sinestro Corps War, Secret Wars I & II, House of M, Civil War, World War Hulk all had endings but they also had logical continuations of certain characters or things that will undoubtedly be referenced in the future.

I expect Final Crisis to be self contained but obviously there will be extensions from the book that will continue elsewhere such as the reborn New Gods and whatever deaths happen there that will resonate onto other titles.

[Netley]

Eh, I doubt Secret Invasion is gonna be all that great either way, whether it comes out every month, every two weeks, or wheneverthehell it pleases. Yu's art's just not good at all for superheroes, and I'm pretty sick of Bendis these days. He's barely mildly entertaining anymore. Even when he's writing stuff that isn't MTO for whatever next big stupid event Marvel's got goin'. And the fact that the whole Skrull joke stopped being funny long, long before this event was even on the horizon ain't helpin'.

However, I do think DC (and Marvel) need to stop pumping up these big events a year ahead of time and rushing both their artists and writers to get 'em done. I understand it's an editor's job to make sure a book comes out on time, but when it's a book you want representing the quality of your company as a whole, you want it to not look like !@#$ or read like !@#$.

I have to highly disagree. The difference between Final Crisis and Secret Invasion is that, while they are both inflated summer events, SI is deliberate, has a unified voice, and has been genuinely building up for years; FC, while I'm sure it will be great, is merely "the next big event from DC."

Whether you like him or not, you have to admit that Bendis has woven together quite an interesting and cohesive plot for the Avengers, all leading up to this. I recently re-read his run starting with NA #1, and it's so fun to see all the clues to Skrulliness (some obvious and some possible).

On the other hand, the buildup to FC, which was the weekly Countdown (I mean, it was literally counting down to FC), turned out to be lame in most people's eyes (though I'm sure it made DC lots of dough). So now FC is on the horizon, and while I'm very much looking forward to Grant's story, the anticipation just isn't there in the same way.

With FC, the reader is waiting for possibly one of the big three to die (though we know that won't quite happen). I'm personally rooting for Grant to cruise in and make some kind of sense out of the mess that is the DCU right now, but other than that I have nothing invested in the story because, who knows, editorial cound be dictating changes to Grant right now.

With SI, the reader has been dropped in a plot of intrigue, where we find ourselves in the middle of a bigger story that has genuinely been going on longer than we realized! Since it has such a unified voice with Bendis at the wheel (counting NA and MA, SI is a 24 chapter thrice-weekly book!), we will get a well-crafted tale with anticipation based on an already great run of comics!

That, and the whole sipping-on-time vs. already-delayed-probably thing.

[Jack Zodiac]

What in particular did you think was half assed?

The reveal itself, when they first discover Skrullectra or whatever cute name fans wanna throw on the heap of impersonators (Skrullverine being my favorite). Elektra's a Skrull? And somehow that obviously means that there's a giant Skrull invasion going on, and only the New Avengers can stop it, because maybe the Skrulls were actually responsible for the Superhuman Registration Act and the superhero civil war and all of this other crazy !@#$.

I'd understand if they'd found out, say, Maria Hill was a Skrull. Or even just a number of random SHIELD agents. Or a real hero that had a worthwhile impact on the landscape of the Marvel Universe. Not Elektra. And then the response to it from the characters in New Avengers was beyond ridiculous. Instant suspicion, like it would matter if any of them were Skrulls anyway. And then the defection to the legal Avengers, and Tony's cardboard reaction.

And the horrible, terrible jokes. "Skrully? Skrullish?" "You're a Skrull! No, you're a Skrull! That's just what a Skrull would say!" Meh! The joke was beat to death in his first interview and it didn't get any better when it actually saw print. Everything Bendis is doing himself is counterproductive to me. I was actually interested in the idea when he presented it, but the longer this goes on, the more and more uninterested I become. Yet another reason he should've kept his mouth shut about it until it was actually just ahead.

I'll predict it now: Secret Invasion ends with every hero fighting each other again, thinking everyone but themselves is a Skrull! And then, at the very end, they all realize they're all Skrulls, and they were just fighting with each other to keep up appearances. The Skrull invasion ended years ago when every character in the Marvel Universe was actually replaced with a Skrull. The end.

Man, I could write comics! Gimme money!

Whether you like him or not, you have to admit that Bendis has woven together quite an interesting and cohesive plot for the Avengers, all leading up to this.

No, I don't.

[Will.S]

On the other hand, the buildup to FC, which was the weekly Countdown (I mean, it was literally counting down to FC), turned out to be lame in most people's eyes (though I'm sure it made DC lots of dough). So now FC is on the horizon, and while I'm very much looking forward to Grant's story, the anticipation just isn't there in the same way.

With FC, the reader is waiting for possibly one of the big three to die (though we know that won't quite happen). I'm personally rooting for Grant to cruise in and make some kind of sense out of the mess that is the DCU right now, but other than that I have nothing invested in the story because, who knows, editorial cound be dictating changes to Grant right now.
While I'm greatly anticipating Final Crisis as much as anyone else, I still feel that Final Crisis is a hand me down story from Didio that Grant was tasked to make awesome. Most of the times I've seen Didio and the Crisis series mentioned, they have been credited to him rather than Meltzer, Johns, and Morrison which doesn't seem right to me. Although the same can be said of Quesada and House of M, Civil War, and Spider-Man with his damn "Genies" but Secret Invasion at least is an all Bendis idea whereas I'm not getting the feeling that Grant came up with the idea and presented it as his own to make into a big event.

Just look at the intro to the Didio interview for Final Crisis: http://www.wizarduniverse.com/010408be01.html

When it comes to his last word on the DC Universe, the forthcoming Final Crisis event miniseries, Dan DiDio makes the following declaration:
“It’s the Crisis to end all Crises.”

Arriving this summer from writer Grant Morrison (Batman) and artist J.G. Jones (52 covers), the eight-issue Final Crisis represents the final installment of DiDio’s “Crisis” trilogy—alongside Identity Crisis and Infinite Crisis—that he’s shepherded as DC Comics VP/executive editor.

[Netley]

The reveal itself, when they first discover Skrullectra or whatever cute name fans wanna throw on the heap of impersonators (Skrullverine being my favorite). Elektra's a Skrull? And somehow that obviously means that there's a giant Skrull invasion going on, and only the New Avengers can stop it, because maybe the Skrulls were actually responsible for the Superhuman Registration Act and the superhero civil war and all of this other crazy !@#$.

I'd understand if they'd found out, say, Maria Hill was a Skrull. Or even just a number of random SHIELD agents. Or a real hero that had a worthwhile impact on the landscape of the Marvel Universe. Not Elektra. And then the response to it from the characters in New Avengers was beyond ridiculous. Instant suspicion, like it would matter if any of them were Skrulls anyway. And then the defection to the legal Avengers, and Tony's cardboard reaction.



The big deal with Skrullektra was that she had been running the entire Japanese underworld, which, according to early issues of NA, seems to have been "rotten" from the inside just like Shield. When she was revealed to be a Skrull, it meant that Skrulls are now undetectable by Wolvie and have infiltrated Earth much deeper than they ever had before. The paranoia made perfect sense to me.

I must say though: you have a much better Ambush Bug pic than I!

[Young Avenger]

The reveal itself, when they first discover Skrullectra or whatever cute name fans wanna throw on the heap of impersonators (Skrullverine being my favorite). Elektra's a Skrull? And somehow that obviously means that there's a giant Skrull invasion going on, and only the New Avengers can stop it, because maybe the Skrulls were actually responsible for the Superhuman Registration Act and the superhero civil war and all of this other crazy !@#$.

I'd understand if they'd found out, say, Maria Hill was a Skrull. Or even just a number of random SHIELD agents. Or a real hero that had a worthwhile impact on the landscape of the Marvel Universe. Not Elektra. And then the response to it from the characters in New Avengers was beyond ridiculous. Instant suspicion, like it would matter if any of them were Skrulls anyway. And then the defection to the legal Avengers, and Tony's cardboard reaction.

Did you read the final issue of the Illuminati series? Iron Man presents the Skrullectra's body to the Illuminati to discuss its meaning. That's when Black Bolt revealed himself as a Skrull and revealed the invasion plans

[Will.S]

The reveal itself, when they first discover Skrullectra or whatever cute name fans wanna throw on the heap of impersonators (Skrullverine being my favorite). Elektra's a Skrull? And somehow that obviously means that there's a giant Skrull invasion going on, and only the New Avengers can stop it, because maybe the Skrulls were actually responsible for the Superhuman Registration Act and the superhero civil war and all of this other crazy !@#$.
Well I don't think that skrulls were directly responsible for Civil War although they throw that in there as another implication but it's not necessarily true either. But I will agree that Bendis had Tony jump to conclusions a bit too soon because he made Tony correlate the invasion directly from the Illuminati's actions in the first issue of the Illuminati. Having Iron Man remember that so clearly because it relates to SI is very convenient since I'm sure has seen lots of skrulls in his life.

As for the paranoia I thought that was actually a natural response the way Bendis handled it on the plane. The New Avengers have known that something has been fishy for a long time and Luke and them put two and two together which was more of a logical way to do it than what Bendis did with Iron Man even though he knew about the corruption in SHIELD as well since forming the NA.

I'll predict it now: Secret Invasion ends with every hero fighting each other again, thinking everyone but themselves is a Skrull! And then, at the very end, they all realize they're all Skrulls, and they were just fighting with each other to keep up appearances. The Skrull invasion ended years ago when every character in the Marvel Universe was actually replaced with a Skrull. The end.Willing to make a bet on that?

;)

[Jack Zodiac]

The big deal with Skrullektra was that she had been running the entire Japanese underworld, which, according to early issues of NA, seems to have been "rotten" from the inside just like Shield. When she was revealed to be a Skrull, it meant that Skrulls are now undetectable by Wolvie and have infiltrated Earth much deeper than they ever had before. The paranoia made perfect sense to me.

The paranoia about Skrulls being undetectable I can buy. Luke going "everyone's against me" was un-!@#$ing-believable.

I must say though: you have a much better Ambush Bug pic than I!

This belongs in the other thread, surely, but I want to bring it up here, too: why was 52 so much better than Countdown? Obviously, Ambush Bug!

Did you read the final issue of the Illuminati series?

Nope! Another stupid idea of Bendis' I severely dislike. Sounds like about a par for the course ending, though.

Y'know what's actually got me interested in anything Skrull-related? Reed's Captain Marvel mini-series. The last issue where they capture and interrogate a Skrull, and Mar-Vell realizes he might be a sleeper agent was a much bigger "ohsnap!" than Skrullektra or Baby Skrull Cage or Stilt-Skrull.

As for the paranoia I thought that was actually a natural response the way Bendis handled it on the plane. The New Avengers have known that something has been fishy for a long time and Luke and them put two and two together which was more of a logical way to do it than what Bendis did with Iron Man even though he knew about the corruption in SHIELD as well since forming the NA.

I think the paranoia would've been more well done if the Skullvelation (eh!? eh!? see what I did there?) had been more powerful than them finding out Elektra was a Skrull. I know what you mean, about their earlier adventure in the Savage Land, back when Tony was still with them, and SHIELD was pulling some weird crap there, and I think a more surprising revelation would've been SHIELD agents tracking down the New Avengers or them stumbling into them, and realizing these SHIELD agents were Skrull sleepers. That's a whole lot more alarming than Elektra being a Skrull.

Willing to make a bet on that?

;)

Alright! I'll bet my copy of Daredevil/Bullseye: The Target #2 on it!

[carabas]

What in particular did you think was half assed?

While Civil War factored a bit into Secret Invasion, SI isn't really a a follow-up to Civil War because the build up to it was done before Civil War was around and I think the skrull threat ends at SI.True. Civil War was continued in agreat many Initiative titles. And it definitely didn't have anything that vaguely resembled a proper ending.

CoIE, Infinite Crisis, Amazons Attack, the Sinestro Corps War, Secret Wars I & II, House of M, Civil War, World War Hulk all had endings but they also had logical continuations of certain characters or things that will undoubtedly be referenced in the future.HoM, Civil War and WWH did not have anything resembling an end. They are not stories, they are the beginnings (or in the case of WWH, the middle bit) of stories. They do not resolve the central conflict (beit What Shall We Do With Wanda, the SHRA and the confict between the two sides, or whatever) in any remotely satisfying way.
The big DC events (CoIE, Inf C, IdC, 52) hold tohether as stories. Sure, they have sequels, but at the end of Infinite Crisis, the villains are stopped, the heroes are reconciled, and there is a sense of closure.

[Will.S]

Civil War was continued in agreat many Initiative titles. And it definitely didn't have anything that vaguely resembled a proper ending.Depends on how you look at it.

The superhero Civil War ended, the Registration side won, and the Registration Act was put firmly in place. If someone read Civil War as a stand alone book, they'd probably think that the ending was anti-climactic and they may not like it but it definitely has an ending. Of course since CW is a big status quo changer it was meant to have little hooks such as what we saw with the Initiative teams and Tony Stark being made head of SHIELD but that's always part of the package to get readers to buy more.

HoM, Civil War and WWH did not have anything resembling an end. They are not stories, they are the beginnings (or in the case of WWH, the middle bit) of stories. They do not resolve the central conflict (beit What Shall We Do With Wanda, the SHRA and the confict between the two sides, or whatever) in any remotely satisfying way.
The big DC events (CoIE, Inf C, IdC, 52) hold tohether as stories. Sure, they have sequels, but at the end of Infinite Crisis, the villains are stopped, the heroes are reconciled, and there is a sense of closure.With House of M, the 616 reality was restored, and Wanda was taken off the shelf. In World War Hulk, Hulk dealt with the Illuminati and Hulk was taken off the shelf. While I hated WWH it did have an ending regarding Hulk's fate. The Warbound stuff is a spin off, Red Hulk uses Banner in some jumping on point, and Skaar doesn't really have anything to do with WWH and more with Planet Hulk.

Conversely Crisis on Infinite Earths was built on the expectation that once everything is rebooted people would check out the rebooted DCU. Infinite Crises ended the conflict with Alex Luthor and Superman Prime but it was directly followed up by 52, OYL, and the Green Lantern books. So really again carabas there's two ways of looking at it.

[Sean Walsh]

The part I find funny about all this "FINAL CRISIS is gonna be late even though #1 was just solicited" talk is that the 2 primary sources for this information are guys who work for Marvel.

Coming up next: find out what Osama bin Laden thinks about America and take it as the absolute truth.... :rolleyes:


And isn't this the same Bendis who stoked fanboy fires on his message board by making disparaging remarks about Grant and DC, and then days later says "Hey guys, relax, I was just kidding. Geez, what's up with that" then tossed a few insults at Gail Simone or something and then shut the entire thread down?

[Phoney Bone]

I have to highly disagree. The difference between Final Crisis and Secret Invasion is that, while they are both inflated summer events, SI is deliberate, has a unified voice, and has been genuinely building up for years; FC, while I'm sure it will be great, is merely "the next big event from DC."

I respectfully disagree with your disagreement. :)

"Final Crisis" is very much deliberate. It is the third part of the Identity/Infinite/Final Crisis triology that resulted from a creative meeting with Morrison, Johns, Waid, Rucka, Loeb, Winnick and DiDio in late 2002 to determine the ultimate future of the DCU going into it's 70th anniversary. "Graduation Day" was the prolouge to the whole dang thing.

Now... Bendis may have very well planned the Skrull Invasion before "Avengers: Disassembled" to make it seem like all of the screwy continuity and off-kilter characterization since then was the plan all along. I don't buy it.

The difference is that DC announced waaay back when that Identity Crisis was the first act of a three-part story. The Skrull Invasion comes off to me as "Okay, we know we screwed the pooch... we'll fix it with Skrulls."

[Will.S]

The part I find funny about all this "FINAL CRISIS is gonna be late even though #1 was just solicited" talk is that the 2 primary sources for this information are guys who work for Marvel.
I was actually basing it on the interview Newsarama had with J.G. At the time of the interview it seemed to me that J.G. was reaching fatigue and had done a lot of stuff at that point which was still issue #2. I figure the break should help a good deal but whether that will work in the long term is hard to say. I didn't mean to turn it into a Secret Invasion conversation but when it comes to the output of both events it's easier to believe that SI will ship on time than Final Crisis regardless of how good or bad the event actually is.

And isn't this the same Bendis who stoked fanboy fires on his message board by making disparaging remarks about Grant and DC, and then days later says "Hey guys, relax, I was just kidding. Geez, what's up with that" then tossed a few insults at Gail Simone or something and then shut the entire thread down?
Yeah, I've found that Bendis on his forums tends to be hypocritical about certain things such as the example you gave here.

[brundlefly]

And isn't this the same Bendis who stoked fanboy fires on his message board by making disparaging remarks about Grant and DC, and then days later says "Hey guys, relax, I was just kidding. Geez, what's up with that" then tossed a few insults at Gail Simone or something and then shut the entire thread down?

How classy and mature of him. :rolleyes: Always nice when one's negative impressions of someone are then backed up by that person's actions.

And as far as Bendis mouthing off against Morrison, DC, & Final Crisis: 'people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones' and all that kind of thing.

[Will.S]

I respectfully disagree with your disagreement. :)

"Final Crisis" is very much deliberate. It is the third part of the Identity/Infinite/Final Crisis triology that resulted from a creative meeting with Morrison, Johns, Waid, Rucka, Loeb, Winnick and DiDio in late 2002 to determine the ultimate future of the DCU going into it's 70th anniversary. "Graduation Day" was the prolouge to the whole dang thing.

Now... Bendis may have very well planned the Skrull Invasion before "Avengers: Disassembled" to make it seem like all of the screwy continuity and off-kilter characterization since then was the plan all along. I don't buy it.

The difference is that DC announced waaay back when that Identity Crisis was the first act of a three-part story. The Skrull Invasion comes off to me as "Okay, we know we screwed the pooch... we'll fix it with Skrulls."
The conspiracy really only goes back to New Avengers/Secret War at most, he had said that the skrull thing was his pitch for the Avengers books and had deliberately wonky stuff going on in his Avengers books because he had a plan even though we didn't know that it involved skrulls which is what people have a harder time believing given the way it was done. We'll see if the flashback to the skrull insertions are well done but I think he left himself enough breathing room to map things out accordingly similar to what Geoff Johns did with the GL books.

However I have a harder time believing that Didio had planned Infinite Crisis and Final Crisis in the way they came out since so many unforeseen things happened since then and he didn't even get the Countdown stuff down until about halfway through. It's definitely possible that he had sequels to the Crisis books sketched out but certainly not to the extent he all expects us to believe.

He likely gives the writers an outline to follow to get them to achieve certain things which is probably why so many people had issues with the forced issues that Identity Crisis and Infinite Crisis had (and I liked both).

[Netley]

I respectfully disagree with your disagreement. :)

"Final Crisis" is very much deliberate. It is the third part of the Identity/Infinite/Final Crisis triology that resulted from a creative meeting with Morrison, Johns, Waid, Rucka, Loeb, Winnick and DiDio in late 2002 to determine the ultimate future of the DCU going into it's 70th anniversary. "Graduation Day" was the prolouge to the whole dang thing.

Now... Bendis may have very well planned the Skrull Invasion before "Avengers: Disassembled" to make it seem like all of the screwy continuity and off-kilter characterization since then was the plan all along. I don't buy it.

The difference is that DC announced waaay back when that Identity Crisis was the first act of a three-part story. The Skrull Invasion comes off to me as "Okay, we know we screwed the pooch... we'll fix it with Skrulls."

I see what you're saying, and I have no doubts those DC greats met back in 2002 to plan a trilogy. It's just that Final Crisis could be just about anything at this point, so long as it's gigantic in scope. It had a year-long lead in that is turning out to not be a lead in at all, which seems to me to suggest some serious problems with overall story coordination (and trust issues for fans - 51 issues at $3 each that end up not tying into what they were told it would!)

As for SI, Bendis has confirmed that the shadowy figure who hired Electro on the first page of NA #1 was a Skrull. While they may use the storyline to fix some continuity stuff, it's clearly far more than a Zero Hour-type-thing, since NA has been secretly leading into SI the whole time (which is the opposite of what Countdown has done).

Again, I'm highly looking forward to both! It's just I already feel deeply involved in Secret Invasion, while Final Crisis seems like it will be an awesome Grant Morrison story about who-knows-what that could take a while to be completed.

[Magneto Rocks]

The part I find funny about all this "FINAL CRISIS is gonna be late even though #1 was just solicited" talk is that the 2 primary sources for this information are guys who work for Marvel.

Oh come on. They're certainly far more likely to know than any of us, and far more likely to speak on it than any of the DC guys- why on Earth would they just make this up? Not to mention that if Jones is only on 2, then given his speed, that's a pretty giant flashing red light.

And isn't this the same Bendis who stoked fanboy fires on his message board by making disparaging remarks about Grant and DC, and then days later says "Hey guys, relax, I was just kidding. Geez, what's up with that" then tossed a few insults at Gail Simone or something and then shut the entire thread down?

Yes, he did indeed mock Final Crisis, Sean. It was in response to.... Grant mocking Secret Invasion. But why do you take LitG's word for THIS but not their word on FC and potential delays?

[Netley]

Oh come on. They're certainly far more likely to know than any of us, and far more likely to speak on it than any of the DC guys- why on Earth would they just make this up? Not to mention that if Jones is only on 2, then given his speed, that's a pretty giant flashing red light.



Yes, he did indeed mock Final Crisis, Sean. It was in response to.... Grant mocking Secret Invasion. But why do you take LitG's word for THIS but not their word on FC and potential delays?

Yeah Grant did make a diminishing remark about Secret Invasion in a Wizard interview recently, but it was just something like "Marvel's already done the Skrull thing before, so it's no big deal."

I'm surprised to hear that Bendis dissed Gail Simone, that's random and undeserved! Anyone know what he said exactly (since the person who brought it up mentioned the post has since been taken down).

[Phoney Bone]

Again, I'm highly looking forward to both! It's just I already feel deeply involved in Secret Invasion, while Final Crisis seems like it will be an awesome Grant Morrison story about who-knows-what that could take a while to be completed.

Agreed.

It's gonna be a fun (and expensive :eek: ) summer!

[Will.S]

I honestly thought Grant's dig was all in good fun but in the end I don't know if Grant knows as much about Secret Invasion as we do and same goes for Bendis and Final Crisis.

[Phoney Bone]

Yes, he did indeed mock Final Crisis, Sean. It was in response to.... Grant mocking Secret Invasion. But why do you take LitG's word for THIS but not their word on FC and potential delays?

For me it was actual links and quotes and the green-light to the Morrison/Bendis/Gail exchanges... as opposed to an amber light for this rumor (not to speak for Mr. Walsh, mind you).

[Netley]

I honestly thought Grant's dig was all in good fun but in the end I don't know if Grant knows as much about Secret Invasion as we do and same goes for Bendis and Final Crisis.

Yeah the Grant remark doesn't seem that bad to me either - an honest jest. I wonder if both "sides" are deliberately playing dumb as to what's going on in the other's event, as to imply theirs is more important. (Although I have to say it's much easier to play dumb as to what Final Crisis is about haha!)

[4thHorseman]

The part I find funny about all this "FINAL CRISIS is gonna be late even though #1 was just solicited" talk is that the 2 primary sources for this information are guys who work for Marvel.

I was going off of what J.G. Jones actually mentioned in an interview a few weeks back with Newsarama where he said he was only on issue 2. That's only a 1/4th of the way through, he's had...what..over half a year?

[Drink]

No, you haven't. Nothing about Countdown is supposed to be the building blocks for Final Crisis, so sayeth Grant.

Which is amusing, as Countdown was marketed as the buildup to it. Hell, it was called Countdown to Final Crisis for God's sake.

So glad I decided against that. Looks like fans were blatantly ripped off.

[Will.S]

Which is amusing, as Countdown was marketed as the buildup to it. Hell, it was called Countdown to Final Crisis for God's sake.

So glad I decided against that. Looks like fans were blatantly ripped off.
I don't know if Grant's just being coy or what but that certainly wouldn't give me reason to invest any interest in Countdown had he said this before Countdown came out.

That said, he could be just saying that it's not essential to understand Final Crisis the same way the 4 mini's weren't essential to Infinite Crisis. To my understanding there will be characters who were in Countdown that will feature in Final Crisis even though they probably won't be headlining it in any way outside of the New Gods.

[carabas]

I don't know if Grant's just being coy or what but that certainly wouldn't give me reason to invest any interest in Countdown had he said this before Countdown came out.According to this week's Lying In the Gutters, Final Crisis and its Countdown pretty much have nothing in common.

I’m told Grant Morrison turned in the issue one script back in November. However, it was not exactly what has been previously discussed and didn’t bounce off from the end of “Countdown" as intended. It also goes off on what can only be described as Morrisonian tangents. You know, what readers call “the good bits."