A rant about Emo Titans [Archive] - Comic Book Resources Forums

K-DoG7p7

03-09-2008, 11:37 PM

Josh S

03-09-2008, 11:44 PM

That was emo.

The Ray

03-10-2008, 12:17 AM

Cheer up, Emo kid. It's not that bad.

Linkara

03-10-2008, 12:24 AM

Why do i keep seeing people bitch about Mckeevers Teen Titans being Emo?
Honestly.. have any of you whiners ever read Geoff's Teen Titans run? It started off Being the most Emo series ever published by DC .. then it became more Emo when Bart got shot, then an Emopath came in and made it more Emo.. then something Emo happened.. and then they Emoed them self into the future and came back even more emo.. then Speedy Joined and she was for some reason Emo.. (she was never emo in Green Arrow), Then Superboy got luthored and turned into SuperEmo and stayed that way until he died
and while he was SuperEmo the rest of the team was Emoing about him being emo..

Then he died.. and Robin and Wondergirl turned both into Superemo,..

if anything Mckeevers Titans are LESS Emo..

and that was my rant.. hope YABS likes it ..

Yes, but their emoness was counteredbalanced with interesting plots and wildly-differing characterizations and attitudes and motivations. The only levels I'm seeing to these characters are "mope" and "angry." During Geoff Johns' run, we actually had periods of happiness... well, at least until OYL. But then Miss Martian helped that. But now Miss Martian is emo, too.

David Atkins

03-10-2008, 12:28 AM

Emo is not a matter of mathematics. Emo is Emo, and is always Emo so long as it remains Emo (prior to it's evolution into Hobo (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=275).)

diana_fan

03-10-2008, 04:05 AM

I generally disregard anyone who tries to seriously use the word "emo."

It's pathetic.

the4thpip

03-10-2008, 04:31 AM

I generally disregard anyone who tries to seriously use the word "emo."

It's pathetic.

Oh, stop being so emo about the way people express themselves.

diana_fan

03-10-2008, 04:38 AM

Oh, stop being so emo about the way people express themselves.

HAHAHA! :)

Michael P

03-10-2008, 05:13 AM

I think McKeever is doing his level best to drag the Titans out of the depressing miasma it became mired in during the Johns run. Of course, with Dan "Young Justice was fun and therefore terrible" Didio on the direct editorial reins, good freakin' luck with that, Sean.

Typo Lad

03-10-2008, 05:20 AM

the depressing miasma it became mired in during the Johns run

In other words, "day one".

Seriously, I haven't disliked a run of Titans so much since the John Jakla issues that came right after #100.

Michael P

03-10-2008, 05:21 AM

In other words, "day one".

Seriously, I haven't disliked a run of Titans so much since the John Jakla issues that came right after #100.

And remember, folks, this is the guy who stuck it out through Team Titans.

Typo Lad

03-10-2008, 05:28 AM

And remember, folks, this is the guy who stuck it out through Team Titans.
"It's can't possibley get worse, can it? Oh wait yes. Yes it can."

the4thpip

03-10-2008, 05:29 AM

In other words, "day one".

Seriously, I haven't disliked a run of Titans so much since the John Jakla issues that came right after #100.

Jaaska, I think?

Typo Lad

03-10-2008, 05:32 AM

Jaaska, I think?
I think you are right and I am wrong.

Whatever the name, it was an insanely jarring switch after Grummet (who has never looked as good as when Al Vey was inking him).

the4thpip

03-10-2008, 05:36 AM

I think you are right and I am wrong.

Whatever the name, it was an insanely jarring switch after Grummet (who has never looked as good as when Al Vey was inking him).

Really? I actually much preferred his inkers on PowerCompnay, Prentiss Rollins and Wade von Grawbadger.

Typo Lad

03-10-2008, 05:38 AM

Really? I actually much preferred his inkers on PowerCompnay, Prentiss Rollins and Wade von Grawbadger.
Did you? I didn't read much Power Company, but I found that Vey's heavier blacks and greater use of shadows gave Grummet a certain weight that his latter work seems to be missing.

Again, I didn't read much of PC, so it could be better and I could be misremembering.

JeffreyWKramer

03-10-2008, 06:52 AM

Did you? I didn't read much Power Company, but I found that Vey's heavier blacks and greater use of shadows gave Grummet a certain weight that his latter work seems to be missing.

Again, I didn't read much of PC, so it could be better and I could be misremembering.

Vey's stuff gave Grummet's art a bit more weight and depth. The inking in POWER COMPANY was done with a lighter touch, giving Grummet's drawings a lighter feeling. It's sort of like (though not quite as extreme as) the difference between Tom Palmer over Byrne vs. Terry Austen over Byrne. Both good, but in different ways.

Pink Bat Maxine

03-10-2008, 07:14 AM

LewisH

03-10-2008, 08:13 AM

watched Real World at least once or twice so to say that teens don't act that way (emo) is already disproven. Super hormones has got to make it that much worse don't you think?

diana_fan

03-10-2008, 09:37 AM

All I have to say about Emo Titans is this: Wolfman/Perez.

I love that run, but McKeever's not to that level of emo by HALF. Hell, I'm not sure it's possible to reach that level without Raven in the lineup.

Excellent point.

And I like this line-up. I'm interested in seeing what happens. And I enjoy how they relate to one and other.

Phoney Bone

03-10-2008, 10:28 AM

All I have to say about Emo Titans is this: Wolfman/Perez.

I love that run, but McKeever's not to that level of emo by HALF. Hell, I'm not sure it's possible to reach that level without Raven in the lineup.

The difference is that Wolfman and Perez had a nice flow. I didn't realize exactly how much teen angst was in it reading month-to-month. I knew it was there, but would only notice the degree of it reading several months worth at a setting.

McKeever (much like Wolfman after Perez left the series) hits the reader with the Emo Hammer O' Doom.

scout1279

03-10-2008, 11:03 AM

I'm liking McKeever's Teen Titans, but then, I have never read Teen Titans before in my life, so my opinion carries little weight in regard to whether things are more or less emo. I just picked it up with the thinking "McKeever writng teen drama = good." Nobody's died though, so that's gotta count for something.

I didn't like that Supergirl got shuffled off the team so quickly though, and I already don't like Robin and Wonder Girl as a couple. I can tell none of the potential couples are going to be as impossibly cute as Peter/Mary Jane though, so I am just going to have to be disappointed on that front.

diana_fan

03-10-2008, 11:12 AM

As to Supergirl, I'm as big a Kara fan as there is, but I never liked her being on the Titans, to be honest.

With Kara, Cassie, and Megan ... what are the rest of the team there for, exactly? Kara's just too damned powerful.

And Tim and Cassie aren't a couple. They were just together because they both felt the horror of Conner dying, and didn't know what else to do.

And, ... SPOILER ...
Cassie dumped him, anyways.
/SPOILER

But Rose just kicks ass. And the next issue is going be Rose in "Die Hard" against the Terror Titans all by herself. :) They are SO gonna get their asses handed to them.

scout1279

03-10-2008, 11:23 AM

As to Supergirl, I'm as big a Kara fan as there is, but I never liked her being on the Titans, to be honest.

With Kara, Cassie, and Megan ... what are the rest of the team there for, exactly? Kara's just too damned powerful.
I was refering more to the fact that Kara was brought onto the team and them written out so quickly just being lame in general. More thought should have gone into it beforehand. If she was just going to leave, what was the point of her being there in the first place? I don't actually care if the character herself is on the team or not.

And Tim and Cassie aren't a couple. They were just together because they both felt the horror of Conner dying, and didn't know what else to do.

And, ... SPOILER ...
Cassie dumped him, anyways.
/SPOILER
I knew that, actually, but it seemed like there would be continuing drama between them, with the possibility of hooking up again later. I haven't read the last issue yet though. I'm a bit behind.

JeffreyWKramer

03-10-2008, 11:24 AM

But Rose just kicks ass. And the next issue is going be Rose in "Die Hard" against the Terror Titans all by herself. :) They are SO gonna get their asses handed to them.

It's a nice enough basic plot that it can bear with a certain bit of repeating, but they did the same plot with Wildcat in JSA awhile back, during the previous run before it got tedious at the end.

NickThompson

03-10-2008, 11:25 AM

They're not Emo, they're teenagers :)

TT isn't a concept I've ever been interested in, but I like McKeever's stuff so far.

Johnny_Luck

03-10-2008, 11:31 AM

Geoff's run was awesome and it really wasn't EMO or even that angsty. I mean there was some angst in the later issues, but not as much as you seen in previous titans and other titles.

Mckeever on the other hand acts like at times he just making them as pissy as possible and as rude and angsty as possible.

I hate how people us the word emo to describe comics like this or early supergirl cause they clearly don't know why the word exists or what it really means.

That being said Blue Beetle being on the teem over supergirl is ridculous considering. Rose going after someone like BB is also way out of character for her, and Cassie is way way way too bitchy for how she should be lately.

Peter David's YJ could not last forever, characters change, mature, and some of that invovles having periods of depression and anger along with the happiness. Had they grown up and they continued to act the way they were with David writing them with their attitudes and all they would have been the clearly unrealistic human beings and people would have to pretend that being that way at 17ish isn't laughable.

Honestly Johns Made me Like Bart and I didn't like a single Flash character before that. He made Superboy one of my favorite characters in comics and he Made Cassie my favorite of the 3 wonders, so obviously he wasn't doing too bad of a job.

The Team Mckeever has is solid when you have people like Cassie, Rose and Eddie, but Supergirl being around would have been so much nicer. Even so Cassie should at least have some panels were they make up so they can hang outside of TT if Mckeever doesn't want her.

Corrina

03-10-2008, 11:32 AM

The Wolfman/Perez Titans did have the advantage of really feeling like a family, people who genuinely and truly cared for each other. They were close friends before anything else.

Look at how the Wally/Dick friendship has lasted until today. They were emo, I guess, but it felt more hopeful than Johns reboot. Sometimes, they felt like they cared for each other, sometimes not. And McKeever's characters seem to really not like each other or even care for each other very much.

So there's this layer that seems missing, which makes the angst feel more harsh.

Astonishing X-Fan

03-10-2008, 11:35 AM

At least Raven now finally has her own EMO SERIES!!!!

NickThompson

03-10-2008, 11:45 AM

The one thing I'd point out reguarding Wolfman/Perez is that you are comparing an entire run to the first what, four issues of another? Rome wasn't built in a day :)

diana_fan

03-10-2008, 11:48 AM

I hate how people us the word emo to describe comics like this or early supergirl cause they clearly don't know why the word exists or what it really means.

Because it's not a real word, and doesn't actually mean anything at all? :)

It's one of those "It means what I don't like" words.

Linkara

03-10-2008, 11:49 AM

Indeed, there isn't a sense of comraderie or friendship in this series anymore. Upon rereading the old Titans series, oh hells yeah did they have their moments of angst and depression, but at the same time there was still a sense of family among them. Take for instance the issue where Raven is convinced she's in love with Dick because she's unfamiliar with her emotions. Is there a big emotional shouting match and pining and regret? No, she and Starfire spend a day at the beach and just talk to each other. Following that, Raven thinks she wasn't invited to a barbecue by Cyborg and goes all emo until she finds out she really was invited and brings back food. Another example would be the wedding of Donna Troy and Terry Long. Beast Boy asked Mento to cover up the fact that Cyborg is, well, a Cyborg in order to avoid any secret identity issues as well as any discomfort around him. Cyborg gets mad at him at this, but then they resolve it shortly afterwards, because that's what friends and family do - they find a way to resolve their problems and come together. Red Star was right - these people can't even carry a conversation with each other without it devolving into a shouting match.

While I agree with Johnny about Rose and Cassie acting out of character, though I disagree about Young Justice. Hell, I haven't even read the full series and yet I've seen points in the series when they acted depressed or thoughtful, in particular when Superboy is staring up at the sky and thinking to himself in sorrow that he may never die. "To die would be a great adventure," anyone?

Rattlehead

03-10-2008, 11:49 AM

At least Raven now finally has her own EMO SERIES!!!!

I thumbed through that at the store over the weekend and it made me feel ashamed for reading comics. What a travesty.

Michael P

03-10-2008, 11:54 AM

While I agree with Johnny about Rose and Cassie acting out of character, though I disagree about Young Justice. Hell, I haven't even read the full series and yet I've seen points in the series when they acted depressed or thoughtful, in particular when Superboy is staring up at the sky and thinking to himself in sorrow that he may never die. "To die would be a great adventure," anyone?

Yeah, but that was properly balanced with the fun. I mean, in the same issue you referenced, we also had teen superhero Truth or Dare and teen superhero mom catfighting. There was balance. Whereas with Johns, the mood was "all angst, all the time." I see signs of McKeever wanting to restore the balance, but just as much I see editorial fiat refusing to let these kids ever enjoy each other's company.

Johnny_Luck

03-10-2008, 11:55 AM

While I agree with Johnny about Rose and Cassie acting out of character, though I disagree about Young Justice. Hell, I haven't even read the full series and yet I've seen points in the series when they acted depressed or thoughtful, in particular when Superboy is staring up at the sky and thinking to himself in sorrow that he may never die. "To die would be a great adventure," anyone?

That was my point about YJ, if they never got ansty even for a short while, or depressed and stayed happy and thoughtful all the time they wouldn't be believable or realistic teenagers especially when they had the age they way they were going to age. and I honestly didn't see that scene so much as depressive.

and I really didn't see the all angst all the time thing with Johns, there were plenty of fun moments.

diana_fan

03-10-2008, 11:59 AM

I was refering more to the fact that Kara was brought onto the team and them written out so quickly just being lame in general. More thought should have gone into it beforehand. If she was just going to leave, what was the point of her being there in the first place? I don't actually care if the character herself is on the team or not.

Gotcha. I'm not sure exactly what happened there, but I agree that it was a little weird.

OTOH, if they were going to play off that in Kara's book, since Cassie and she are so close, it could be interesting. But I don't get the feeling that it's going to happen.

I knew that, actually, but it seemed like there would be continuing drama between them, with the possibility of hooking up again later. I haven't read the last issue yet though. I'm a bit behind.

Trying to understand Cassie's emotions and decisions based on them can only end in tears. :)

Seriously, I love her. And I love the fact that she so often flies off the handle, or has a breakdown. I think it makes her interesting. But her relationship with Tim was a nightmare waiting to happen.

Getting together because you both love a recently dead friend is a horrible, horrible reason to be a couple.

the4thpip

03-10-2008, 12:17 PM

At least Raven now finally has her own EMO SERIES!!!!

I hope there is a dream sequence where Teenage Emo Raven™ meets Evil Lesbian Raven™ and they make out!

The Xenos

03-10-2008, 09:23 PM

Count me as one of those people who can't take people who seriously use emo seriously.

Every time someones tries to make emo a legitimate word, God makes a kitten cut itself while listening to Linkin Park.

I hope there is a dream sequence where Teenage Emo Raven™ meets Evil Lesbian Raven™ and they make out!

Yeah, because a gajillion pics on Deviant Art are simply not enough.

Corrina

03-10-2008, 09:34 PM

I use emo to tease my teenage daughter. Drives her nuts.

Frex:

'Angel is emo! He's so the billowy coat of pain!"

"Angel is not emo! HE'S NOT!"

It's good for at least three go-rounds.

The sequel usually goes "Edward is emo, too."

"But...he's not that emo! And I love Edward! He's so....Edward!"

*Edward being the immortal vamp from Stephanie Meyer's Twilight series who should be an emo poster boy, I'd guess.

Sabrinaset

03-10-2008, 09:38 PM

They're not Emo, they're teenagers :)

Well really, EMO TEEN (Titans) is a redundancy!

Dedagda

03-10-2008, 09:56 PM

We actually had this conversation about Teen Titans being emo just two days ago! Now that we can compare it to TT Year one, its dreadful. They're kids! Let have fun!

I blame the Conner/Cassie "sleep over." Its been down emo hill since then.

Thnikkaman

03-10-2008, 10:09 PM

Someone should totally photoshop the cover of #56 with Emo Philips's face superimposed over everyone else's.

That would be awesome.

beetlebum

03-10-2008, 10:15 PM

I use emo to tease my teenage daughter. Drives he nuts.

Frex:

'Angel is emo! He's so the billowy coat of pain!"

"Angel is not emo! HE'S NOT!"

It's good for at least three go-rounds.

The sequel usually goes "Edward is emo, too."

"But...he's not that emo! And I love Edward! He's so....Edward!"

*Edward being the immortal vamp from Stephanie Meyer's Twilight series who should be an emo poster boy, I'd guess.

You are one cruel woman. :evilsmile:

EDIT: The rant (aspects of which were a joke) was not taken well. Something best not to address. Though it does not negate the fact that I hate emo "music" and I feel that some of them are really self absorbed and whiny. Than again, as has been conveyed here and elsewhere, we all have our troubles, now don't we?

Kevinroc

03-10-2008, 10:52 PM

That was my point about YJ, if they never got ansty even for a short while, or depressed and stayed happy and thoughtful all the time they wouldn't be believable or realistic teenagers especially when they had the age they way they were going to age. and I honestly didn't see that scene so much as depressive.

and I really didn't see the all angst all the time thing with Johns, there were plenty of fun moments.

Young Justice wasn't trying to be serious (with a brief exception every now and then). It was trying to be fun and it succeeded in that regard. The book wasn't trying to be "realistic" (which is frankly impossible in a super hero book, and especially in one where a major character is a time traveling super speedster that can't tell the difference between a video game and the dangers of the real world).

Young Justice has one claim over Teen Titans. Young Justice was actually good. Teen Titans has gotten worse and worse over time, and current editorial decisions are not helping. Bart Allen still provided some fun (albeit after he was stripped of his original personality) but they still took him off the team and then killed him.

The general tone of Teen Titans is a depressing series of stories about characters that continue to wallow away in misery. This isn't good writing. This is just terrible snuff. The manga series Berserk is more uplifting than this garbage and Berserk had a story point involving a king getting pissed that he didn't take his daughter's virginity.

Charles RB

03-10-2008, 11:03 PM

Emo's are self absorbed suburban brats who whine about how no one "understands them".

And considering the common criticism is "stop whining, you have a roof over your head!", they appear to be right. I'm sorry but that's a fucking retarded response: "hello person who is biologically in a heightened emotional state and unformed brain, do you have problems? Well, they can't be real because you have a computer and live in a house, stop whining! There, that must solve the problem."

Because nobody who lives in the suburbs has ever had any legitimate problems or suffered from depression.

Johnny_Luck

03-10-2008, 11:08 PM

Young Justice has one claim over Teen Titans. Young Justice was actually good. Teen Titans has gotten worse and worse over time,

You had me listening up until that, which is completely wack and false.

YJ problem was it lacked serious tones and reality at times and I still say that it was the most overhyped canceled book in DC forum history and that only might be surpassed if Blue Beetle gets canceled. It really wasn';t as good or even great as you or Jack make it out to be.

Teen Titans on the other hand had 2 bad issues in 46 total, thats pretty damn good IMHO. Geoffs Titans were highly entertaining throughout.

and I like that he was being realistic in not having them happy go lucky all the time and actually have them realize how shit the world is and how bad things can get.

I know people read comics to pretend reality isn't there sometimes, but you and Jack make me wondering if you really just want to pretend that all the time and never remember how shitty and horrible it was in high school and being a teen. They acted in Geoff's run like people their age do, high school is not the best time of your life its the worst, when you realize all thats going on in the world and you have bad times.

Jack Zodiac

03-10-2008, 11:09 PM

Delusional? Fuck yeah!

beetlebum

03-11-2008, 12:17 AM

And considering the common criticism is "stop whining, you have a roof over your head!", they appear to be right. I'm sorry but that's a fucking retarded response: "hello person who is biologically in a heightened emotional state and unformed brain, do you have problems? Well, they can't be real because you have a computer and live in a house, stop whining! There, that must solve the problem."

Because nobody who lives in the suburbs has ever had any legitimate problems or suffered from depression.

I don't think the "fucking retarded" is necessary. A lot of that rant, was as I noted, tongue in cheek. And I was not negating the fact that some of them do suffer legitimately from depression. I was just making fun of those who suffer from teen angst, as I did, and choose to make mountains out of molehills. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

d newton

03-11-2008, 01:56 AM

Young Justice has one claim over Teen Titans. Young Justice was actually good. Teen Titans has gotten worse and worse over time, and current editorial decisions are not helping. Bart Allen still provided some fun (albeit after he was stripped of his original personality) but they still took him off the team and then killed him.
Excluding issues 27 / 28 (the Hawk & Dove 2 parter), how has the current Titans book got worse over time? :confused:

Johnny_Luck

03-11-2008, 02:00 AM

well issues 46 -on have been pretty rough, but pre-geoff leaving titans east arc it was actually pretty solid.

The Kid Devil issue which was 43 I think was pretty horrid though. and Was it 35 or 36 I think as the only other issue I didn't like and think was pretty enjoyable during Geoffs run.

Kevinroc

03-11-2008, 02:34 AM

You had me listening up until that, which is completely wack and false.

YJ problem was it lacked serious tones and reality at times and I still say that it was the most overhyped canceled book in DC forum history and that only might be surpassed if Blue Beetle gets canceled. It really wasn';t as good or even great as you or Jack make it out to be.

Teen Titans on the other hand had 2 bad issues in 46 total, thats pretty damn good IMHO. Geoffs Titans were highly entertaining throughout.

and I like that he was being realistic in not having them happy go lucky all the time and actually have them realize how shit the world is and how bad things can get.

I know people read comics to pretend reality isn't there sometimes, but you and Jack make me wondering if you really just want to pretend that all the time and never remember how shitty and horrible it was in high school and being a teen. They acted in Geoff's run like people their age do, high school is not the best time of your life its the worst, when you realize all thats going on in the world and you have bad times.

First up, my favorite comic book character is the Incredible Hulk. I understand characters experiencing bad times. I mentioned Berserk, a series that is incredibly dark. If I had a problem with dark stories, I would not read Berserk.

The problem with Teen Titans is in its tone, which is just incredibly depressing. Even the creator of Berserk understands that the audience needs light-hearted moments to take the edge off the insanity.

Teen Titans has none of those kind of moments. And real teens don't try to clone their dead friends. The title is laughably bad in its execution of grief. All the characters are defined by grief. That is not what being a "real teen" is about. Teen Titans should be about a group of friends having good times together and being there for each other in the face of tragedy. We see none of that in this title.

Johnny_Luck

03-11-2008, 02:42 AM

First up, my favorite comic book character is the Incredible Hulk. I understand characters experiencing bad times. I mentioned Berserk, a series that is incredibly dark. If I had a problem with dark stories, I would not read Berserk.

The problem with Teen Titans is in its tone, which is just incredibly depressing. Even the creator of Berserk understands that the audience needs light-hearted moments to take the edge off the insanity.

Teen Titans has none of those kind of moments. And real teens don't try to clone their dead friends. The title is laughably bad in its execution of grief. All the characters are defined by grief. That is not what being a "real teen" is about. Teen Titans should be about a group of friends having good times together and being there for each other in the face of tragedy. We see none of that in this title.

It does have its light Moments, like Eddie/Rose Pre-Sean), Bart early on, Cassie and Superboy(pretty much everything between them pre- issue 25),Starfire Early on, etc, etc, etc.

Also If a Teenager lost a love one and had a way of at least trying to bring them back from the dead they would try it, even an adult in that situation would probably try it, not to mention Tim's circumstances are even more bad off then normal people who lose a loved one, so you're wrong there. Pet Cemetery by King works for a very good reason as a story.

Also No it shouldn't be about Teens having a good time, because the good times that anyone has are few and far between in real life for both Teens and Adults. It should be about Friends whom try and make the best of what they are given, but know they are stuck in a world where more often or not they are going to be feeling down and out. And Until issue 47ish thats how it was written and why it worked as well as it did.

I am not saying they cannot have good times, its just not realistic for there to be more good times then not, which is the problem I had with YJ.

Kevinroc

03-11-2008, 03:29 AM

It does have its light Moments, like Eddie/Rose Pre-Sean), Bart early on, Cassie and Superboy(pretty much everything between them pre- issue 25),Starfire Early on, etc, etc, etc.

And now Cassie has become defined by Conner's death. She isn't her own character anymore. Any trace of personality she once had is gone and replaced by incredible angst.

Bart was the comic relief and we can't have fun in our comics because they are so serious. And so he had to die.

Wow... So much fun...

Also If a Teenager lost a love one and had a way of at least trying to bring them back from the dead they would try it, even an adult in that situation would probably try it, not to mention Tim's circumstances are even more bad off then normal people who lose a loved one, so you're wrong there. Pet Cemetery by King works for a very good reason as a story.

Someone of Tim's intellect should know that cloning somebody is not bringing them back from the dead. And when Tim exclaimed "it would be close enough" (or words to that effect), that just shows how little the writers actually understand the character.

Also No it shouldn't be about Teens having a good time, because the good times that anyone has are few and far between in real life for both Teens and Adults. It should be about Friends whom try and make the best of what they are given, but know they are stuck in a world where more often or not they are going to be feeling down and out. And Until issue 47ish thats how it was written and why it worked as well as it did.

When I hang out with my friends, we try to have a good time. We don't sit and mope about the crap that we've all experienced. Even when one of us is down, our friends are supposed to be there to help lift us up. The lack of this feeling of friendship is another of the Teen Titans glaring weaknesses.

I am not saying they cannot have good times, its just not realistic for there to be more good times then not, which is the problem I had with YJ.

The kids in Young Justice each had a personality and tried to have fun together. I could believe they were friends who genially wanted to hang out with each other. I don't understand why the Teen Titans are together. All they seem to do is mope about how crappy life is in between the standard comic book action sequences (or even during said sequences).

Johnny_Luck

03-11-2008, 03:50 AM

And now Cassie has become defined by Conner's death. She isn't her own character anymore. Any trace of personality she once had is gone and replaced by incredible angst.

Bart was the comic relief and we can't have fun in our comics because they are so serious. And so he had to die.

Wow... So much fun...

Someone of Tim's intellect should know that cloning somebody is not bringing them back from the dead. And when Tim exclaimed "it would be close enough" (or words to that effect), that just shows how little the writers actually understand the character.

When I hang out with my friends, we try to have a good time. We don't sit and mope about the crap that we've all experienced. Even when one of us is down, our friends are supposed to be there to help lift us up. The lack of this feeling of friendship is another of the Teen Titans glaring weaknesses.

The kids in Young Justice each had a personality and tried to have fun together. I could believe they were friends who genially wanted to hang out with each other. I don't understand why the Teen Titans are together. All they seem to do is mope about how crappy life is in between the standard comic book action sequences (or even during said sequences).

This Whole Post seems to be complaining about everything thats happened recently post Geoffs Run, while we were at the time talking about Pre-Sean issues, so I guess I got confused.

As for the Tim issue When your loved one is dead and you are grieving Intellect isn't always in play, in fact its one of the furthest things from someones mind at the time the stuff is happening. When something like that happens as close as you could get would be enough at least in your mind at the time.

It seems like you acting like you have yet to lose a loved one in your life(if you have sorry, but your not acting like you have experienced that before) I have 3 times and I am only in my early twenties. I definately could see tim and many others acting the way that both He and Cassie did during that time period.

the4thpip

03-11-2008, 03:55 AM

Maybe it would be easier to write a light-hearted Titans book if Didio hadn't killed so many of them.

Johnny_Luck

03-11-2008, 03:59 AM

d newton

03-11-2008, 04:07 AM

And now Cassie has become defined by Conner's death. She isn't her own character anymore. Any trace of personality she once had is gone and replaced by incredible angst.
That isn't true - she's got heaps of personality left (see Supergirl 9 [last page], 10 & 20 to 22 / Wonder Girl 1 to 6 / Wonder Woman 13).

The problem with Teen Titans is in its tone, which is just incredibly depressing.
Well, issues 7, 21 & Ann 1 weren't.

Kevinroc

03-11-2008, 04:17 AM

This Whole Post seems to be complaining about everything thats happened recently post Geoffs Run, while we were at the time talking about Pre-Sean issues, so I guess I got confused.

As for the Tim issue When your loved one is dead and you are grieving Intellect isn't always in play, in fact its one of the furthest things from someones mind at the time the stuff is happening. When something like that happens as close as you could get would be enough at least in your mind at the time.

It seems like you acting like you have yet to lose a loved one in your life(if you have sorry, but your not acting like you have experienced that before) I have 3 times and I am only in my early twenties. I definately could see tim and many others acting the way that both He and Cassie did during that time period.

I have experienced losing loved ones before. A number of times. It always hurts.

If you wanna stick to just talking about Geoff's Titans run, you can. I'm talking about the book as a whole and explaining just why I think the title, as it exists right now, could be called DC's worst ongoing super hero comic book. The must frustrating thing is that I know Geoff Johns and Sean McKeever can deliver good super hero comics. I've read good comics written by them.

As far as Tim trying to clone Conner to bring him back being natural? That's about as natural as Spider-Man thinking it's a good idea to make a deal with Mephisto. But in the interest of full disclosure, if DC were to publish a Teen Titans: One More Day type story, I would love it. Because the title as it exists right now is a horrible mess and a victim of editorial interference (as if being edited by the man that is essentially the editor-in-chief wasn't a big enough clue). The two main things that have defined the title (the deaths of Conner and Bart) didn't even happen in the pages of Teen Titans. They happened in other comics.

Geoff's run REALLY went downhill after Bart was taken off the team and he has even admitted losing Bart and Conner wasn't good for the title. But even during his run you'd see those moments of friendship that these characters are supposed to have, like when Tim's father died and he opened up to the team (although the villain continuing to say stuff about fathers was an unsubtle way to knock that point into your head).

So what is your argument here? That all of Geoff's Titans run was good? That the book is crap now? That the book is good right now?

Kevinroc

03-11-2008, 04:22 AM

That isn't true - she's got heaps of personality left (see Supergirl 9 [last page], 10 & 20 to 22 / Wonder Girl 1 to 6 / Wonder Woman 13).

You notice what you see on that list? That none of those comics you listed are Teen Titans.

Well, issues 7, 21 & Ann 1 weren't.

I won't make an argument against #7 since the title should have been more like that. It can't anymore.

#21 was tied into Identity Crisis and that's not a can of worms you want to open. Annual 1 was so obviously a farewell to Superboy that it couldn't be looked at as anything truly positive to the overall title.

Johnny_Luck

03-11-2008, 05:09 AM

So what is your argument here? That all of Geoff's Titans run was good? That the book is crap now? That the book is good right now?

Yeah the book is crap now, but I would have to Say Geoffs titans barring only 2 issues was some of the most enjoyable and awesome stuff in the comic book world at the time he was writing titans.

and again about the tim issue, people Grieve and when they do they don't always use the best logic or use common sense. You seem to act and think for some reason people in time of death always do the smartest things and they really, really don't. A lot of stupid and bad things happen when people lose loved ones, because they lack the ability to keep it cool. Tim was written to act normally given his circumstances to say otherwise is foolish and being blind to the situation at hand.

and to say it isn't natural for a younger one or even an older person to want to bring someone back or at least try if they can think of a way is ridculous. Again Pet Cemetery is very true to how most people would at least want to act if not a lot of people would act that same way given the chance. Also why sci-fi shows and Horror movies play off that all the time, cause they know the feeling, the want to do something like that hits home with people in time of loss.

d newton

03-11-2008, 05:14 AM

You notice what you see on that list? That none of those comics you listed are Teen Titans.
Well, I didn't want all the Batgirl (Cass) Fans moaning again that she got ruined.

Johnny_Luck

03-11-2008, 05:16 AM

the4thpip

03-11-2008, 07:09 AM

Well, I didn't want all the Batgirl (Cass) Fans moaning again that she got ruined.

http://www.southafrica.to/transport/carrentals/Avis-car-rental/congratulations-idiot.gif

LewisH

03-11-2008, 08:43 AM

Cass knees Oliver Queen in the groin we'll all be satisfied. Until then I reserve the right to complain.We would also like it if the writers would stop having her "job" for every 2nd rate villain or hero they want to put over but even Batman has been made to do that from time to time so I'll live with it.

Michael P

03-11-2008, 08:45 AM

Well, issues 7, 21 & Ann 1 weren't.

3 out of 57 is a terrible ratio.

diana_fan

03-11-2008, 10:42 AM

The idea that Tim trying to clone Conner is somehow out of character doesn't make sense to me.

The fact of the matter is that he's not thinking clearly, yet, at the same time is thinking very clearly. "Conner's dead. How can that be? I've got to do something about this. Wait. I CAN do something about this!"

Problem meet Solution.

And while it is a TERRIBLE idea, Tim attempts it because his grief is blinding him to that fact.

Jack Zodiac

03-11-2008, 10:47 AM

I actually hoping that the adult Titans book is written in the same tone Winick's outsiders were, that was awesome and well done and it had plenty of downtime and funny moments, that you YJ fans seems to be wanting.

I do, too. Then I really won't feel compelled to read it.

The idea that Tim trying to clone Conner is somehow out of character doesn't make sense to me.

Really? He's lost, let's see... his mother, his father, and his girlfriend, and then his best friend. It's not like death, loss, and grief are anything new to him. So, there's that. And then there's the hullabaloo over whether or not Kon-El had a soul to begin with, being a clone in the first place, which Tim helped him deal with (until Geoff gave us the big wide open door with the issue where Raven shows him his soul). Him wanting to clone Superboy is selfish and out of character.

It was a plot device to further milk the death of Superboy, just like Cassie's uncontrollable grief that eventually overrode her real character.

Charles RB

03-11-2008, 11:08 AM

Really? He's lost, let's see... his mother, his father, and his girlfriend, and then his best friend.

Logically, if he's cloning Superboy, he should be trying to clone his dad and Spoiler too (his mother's too long dead IIRC). I wonder why they're getting ignored...

diana_fan

03-11-2008, 11:14 AM

Really? He's lost, let's see... his mother, his father, and his girlfriend, and then his best friend. It's not like death, loss, and grief are anything new to him. So, there's that. And then there's the hullabaloo over whether or not Kon-El had a soul to begin with, being a clone in the first place, which Tim helped him deal with (until Geoff gave us the big wide open door with the issue where Raven shows him his soul). Him wanting to clone Superboy is selfish and out of character.

It was a plot device to further milk the death of Superboy, just like Cassie's uncontrollable grief that eventually overrode her real character.

I disagree. First Kon was a clone in the first place, which may have influenced Tim's decision. Second, you're trying to apply logic to a situation where it doesn't necessarily apply.

That's sort of my point: Tim's not acting rationally. He's acting out of grief. So, yes, I guess that does make it out of character. Much the way many of us act out of character when extreme occurrences happen in our lives.

Jack Zodiac

03-11-2008, 11:16 AM

Logically, if he's cloning Superboy, he should be trying to clone his dad and Spoiler too (his mother's too long dead IIRC). I wonder why they're getting ignored...

Nah, logically he'd know that you can't clone someone's personality and soul, so even if he brought his friends and family back, they wouldn't really be the same people they once were. His forced psychological snap and decision to clone Kon-El was just that, forced.

I disagree. First Kon was a clone in the first place, which may have influenced Tim's decision. Second, you're trying to apply logic to a situation where it doesn't necessarily apply.

That's sort of my point: Tim's not acting rationally. He's acting out of grief. So, yes, I guess that does make it out of character. Much the way many of us act out of character when extreme occurrences happen in our lives.

Ain't that comics? Nothing's logical. All you can do is go by how the characters are generally written. And it isn't in Tim's character (or really within his resources, frankly), to decide that death isn't fair for his best friend despite having lost plenty of people in the past and that he should clone him. It's very out of character, even within the context of his grieving process, but it's an obviously motived plot-device that Johns decided to use long before Superboy's death.

Typo Lad

03-11-2008, 11:17 AM

I disagree. First Kon was a clone in the first place, which may have influenced Tim's decision. Second, you're trying to apply logic to a situation where it doesn't necessarily apply.

That's sort of my point: Tim's not acting rationally. He's acting out of grief. So, yes, I guess that does make it out of character. Much the way many of us act out of character when extreme occurrences happen in our lives.

Except if your best friend is a clone, you're more apt to say "Hey, my dad was killed... clone him for me!"

Actually, I'd have loved to see a story where Robin stormed Cadmus for just that reason.