Mixed Martial Arts

[Super Sonic]

Thoughts? Opinions? Ballyhoo?

[Jack Zodiac]

Whatever happened to good old fashioned drunken violence? They gotta televise it now? Pshaw! Phooey! And what have you!

[Ben Morgan]

Whatever happened to good old fashioned drunken violence? They gotta televise it now? Pshaw! Phooey! And what have you!Your face is drunken violence!

[Ninja Kris]

More fun participating in it. Boring just watching it.

[Jack Zodiac]

Your face is drunken violence!

I'd like to think it is, most of the time.

More fun participating in it. Boring just watching it.

Fuck yeah!

[Infra-Man]

Whatever happened to good old fashioned drunken violence? They gotta televise it now? Pshaw! Phooey! And what have you!

It worked well enough for this guy:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a7/DrunkenMaster2_DVDcover.jpg

[Grazzt]

It's the most homoerotic thing on TV.

[Apex Tech]

It's the most homoerotic thing on TV.

I don't know. Are Lost and Battlestar Galactica canceled yet?

[Jack Zodiac]

It's the most homoerotic thing on TV.

Nah, professional wrestling is, by far, the gayest thing on television. The MMA guys don't dress up in bright, flamboyant outfits, at least.

[Ben Morgan]

Nah, professional wrestling is, by far, the gayest thing on television. The MMA guys don't dress up in bright, flamboyant outfits, at least.
Your face is a flamboyant outfit!

[Jack Zodiac]

Your face is a flamboyant outfit!

It is. My beard comes in with crazy red hairs. And sometimes, it just turns into a bright red feather boa.

[Ben Morgan]

It is. My beard comes in with crazy red hairs. And sometimes, it just turns into a bright red feather boa.
Was this (http://www.longleaf.net/ggrow/rembrandt1/rembrandt/GG-at-2-w-beard.jpg) you as a baby?

[Cam63]

Snatch the beer out of my hand, Grasshopper.

[Cam63]

Was this (http://www.longleaf.net/ggrow/rembrandt1/rembrandt/GG-at-2-w-beard.jpg) you as a baby?

That's the earliest known photo of Barry Gibb.

[Bo Bo]

Snatch the beer out of my hand, Grasshopper.

Not that I would be able too, but wouldn't that lead to horrible consequences if I succeded? :eek:

[stamen]

It's the most homoerotic thing on TV.

Funny you should say this. I'm a black-belt in aikijutsu and took my first MMA style class last night. It was all about pin downs, "grab me here" kind of stuff. Their rational is that 80% of all fights end up on the ground. Maybe so, but that 80% doesn't involve pin downs-- at least not in real fights. It's about going two finger joints deep into someone's eye socket or trachea. That sort of thing is illegal in MMA, which means unless I want to compete in a tourney, I'm pretty much wasting my time rolling around on the floor with a guy (wearing a cup), taking dominant stances with my body on top of his, and learning to position my body weight on him without knocking his balls up inside him.

Don't get me wrong, I learned some valuable things about weight distribution, but none of it translated into anything tangible outside the dojo, except having his scent still on my uniform.

[Jack Zodiac]

Was this (http://www.longleaf.net/ggrow/rembrandt1/rembrandt/GG-at-2-w-beard.jpg) you as a baby?

That can't be me. I never smile. All I can do is sneer less.

[Ben Morgan]

That can't be me. I never smile. All I can do is sneer less.
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7514/babyjackgz9.jpg

[Jack Zodiac]

Better. Man, I had a wicked fuckin' underbite.

[Ben Morgan]

Yeah, ya freak!

[Cam63]

Not that I would be able too, but wouldn't that lead to horrible consequences if I succeded? :eek:

Yeah... You'd make a grown Aussie cry.

[Christopher Cross Is God]

Funny you should say this. I'm a black-belt in aikijutsu and took my first MMA style class last night. It was all about pin downs, "grab me here" kind of stuff. Their rational is that 80% of all fights end up on the ground. Maybe so, but that 80% doesn't involve pin downs-- at least not in real fights. It's about going two finger joints deep into someone's eye socket or trachea. That sort of thing is illegal in MMA, which means unless I want to compete in a tourney, I'm pretty much wasting my time rolling around on the floor with a guy (wearing a cup), taking dominant stances with my body on top of his, and learning to position my body weight on him without knocking his balls up inside him.

Don't get me wrong, I learned some valuable things about weight distribution, but none of it translated into anything tangible outside the dojo, except having his scent still on my uniform.

Those "MMA style" students are quite fortunate you didn't apply the death-touch during class.

lol, if you think eye-gouging, fingering a person's throat, and nut-shots are such skillful & effective techniques, then by all means go to a reputable bjj school and try any of the three tactics out on one of their instructors in a private match.

They've been tried, and those tactics used to be legal in MMA.....140 lb Yuki Nakai had his eye gouged in a tournament in Japan, to the extent of becoming partially blind, yet he still beat his much larger opponents.

As for the "80% of fights go to the ground" claim, that's a bunch of crap. There was no study made on fights to come up with that percentage, it was a marketing ploy used by Rorion Gracie.......Regardless, it is rather crucial to know the ground game. I'm just pointing out the fact that the "80%" claim is bogus.

I shall now depart this thread, while running in fear over the thought of Sokaku Takeda's spirit-form gouging my eyes out and fingering my trachea.

[Superbeast]

Funny you should say this. I'm a black-belt in aikijutsu and took my first MMA style class last night. It was all about pin downs, "grab me here" kind of stuff. Their rational is that 80% of all fights end up on the ground. Maybe so, but that 80% doesn't involve pin downs-- at least not in real fights. It's about going two finger joints deep into someone's eye socket or trachea. That sort of thing is illegal in MMA, which means unless I want to compete in a tourney, I'm pretty much wasting my time rolling around on the floor with a guy (wearing a cup), taking dominant stances with my body on top of his, and learning to position my body weight on him without knocking his balls up inside him.

Don't get me wrong, I learned some valuable things about weight distribution, but none of it translated into anything tangible outside the dojo, except having his scent still on my uniform.

You do understand the difference between self defense and assault, ABH and GBH right? You blind someone, there is not going to be leniency. You choke someone out, well shit, that's what police are taught to do. Self defense laws generally only extend to appropriate reactionary force, if you puree someone's eyeballs with your thumbnails, you're going to prison. You restrain, choke or pin someone until the authorities turn up, you're likely to face less legal action. You mash someone's balls to pieces with your wingtip, your facing a lawsuit for leaving him infertile.

Also, most guys do freeball (no cup training) on a semi regular basis so we get used to those kind of knocks, many self defense classes encourage us to just turn up in the clothes we'd wear on a night out and to develop techniques effective for our particular outfits.

I've went full on both standing and on the ground with various karate black belts, aikido black belts, judo black belts, TJJ black belts and with the exception of two judo BBs and one aikido BB, I've beat every single one of them. One TJJ black belt tried to eyegouge me and I armbarred him. He tried a double strangle, I armbarred him. He went to elbow me in my balls, I triangled him. The aikido guy caught me with a wristlock when I went for a cross choke but I then basically tooled him for the remaining 4 minutes.

MMA is the evolution and unification of various styles into a single, universal and effective style a la JKD. Every top martial artist these days cross trains to some degree. To not do so and expect your own single minded school of thought to be dominant is naive. I know 12 different ways to break legs and ankles, about 40 ways to choke someone unconscious using different limbs, 6 ways to tear a rotator cuff, 6 different ways to break a wrist, 4 ways to break an elbow, a way to invert a shoulder, 4 ways to break or damage the spine... I can go on but the whole point is depending on the situation I have various means to deal out damage in self defense or offense depending on the position. I don't have to resort to possibly fatal means and as a result I can save myself a lot of legal problems.

[Jack Zodiac]

Guys, guys, guys...

Armbars and wristlocks and shit are good and all, but the truth is, eighty percent of fights end in a pool cue to the back of the head. The other twenty percent end with a broken bottle to the face. When're they gonna start televising bar fights already? :mad:

[The Ray]

-breaks a bottle over Jack's head to prove this point-

[Ben Morgan]

*hits Jack in the back of the head with a pool cue*

[Cam63]

Guys, guys, guys...

Armbars and wristlocks and shit are good and all, but the truth is, eighty percent of fights end in a pool cue to the back of the head. The other twenty percent end with a broken bottle to the face. When're they gonna start televising bar fights already? :mad:

When I get's ma filmin' li-saynse... H'yuck !

[Christopher Cross Is God]

You do understand the difference between self defense and assault, ABH and GBH right? You blind someone, there is not going to be leniency. You choke someone out, well shit, that's what police are taught to do. Self defense laws generally only extend to appropriate reactionary force, if you puree someone's eyeballs with your thumbnails, you're going to prison. You restrain, choke or pin someone until the authorities turn up, you're likely to face less legal action. You mash someone's balls to pieces with your wingtip, your facing a lawsuit for leaving him infertile.

It's not just all that.....He was making an issue of "pindowns", which I'll have to assume means takedowns & positioning (Since he mentioned weight distribution).......If he's trying to eye-gouge someone, or stick his fingers into the guy's throat, but doesn't know much about positioning, he'd get easily reversed by someone who knows what they're doing. Not to mention the fact that if someone's trying one of those tactics, one of the easiest counters is to simply swipe their arm away, regardless of how magical they believe their eye gouging skills may be.

How often do they practice/drill eye gouges with full force? You'd have a lot of partially blind tma'ers out there due to practice/drills alone, if these techniques are as awe-inspiring as they believe.

You get a guy with amateur wrestling skills pinning you down, then yeah, that guy will be able to gouge your eyes out because most people wouldn't be able to get out from under him.



I've went full on both standing and on the ground with various karate black belts, aikido black belts, judo black belts, TJJ black belts and with the exception of two judo BBs and one aikido BB, I've beat every single one of them. One TJJ black belt tried to eyegouge me and I armbarred him. He tried a double strangle, I armbarred him. He went to elbow me in my balls, I triangled him. The aikido guy caught me with a wristlock when I went for a cross choke but I then basically tooled him for the remaining 4 minutes.

Don't you know the defense-mechanism against that? The whole "He didn't apply techniques correctly", or, "He wasn't a good representative of the art."

[Alan Lynch]

They call sparring without a cup "freeball"? That's fucking brilliant.

[stamen]

lol, if you think eye-gouging, fingering a person's throat, and nut-shots are such skillful & effective techniques, then by all means go to a reputable bjj school and try any of the three tactics out on one of their instructors in a private match.

Techniques are never an end to themselves, but I promise you they change the amount of energy your opponent exerts on the mat. I've gotten to where if I go to the ground, I just "pinch" the inner thigh near the scrotum or a poke on the little tab just below the sternum to generate kuzushi. It works just fine. Most BJJ guys that I've rolled with aren't used to it all because they're training by the rules. I respect that really, it just doesn't always translate to street kuzushi. Most of the MMA lock-ups and choke-outs that I've seen are just standing techniques done on the ground.

I also think debating art forms is pretty much an immature thing to do, so I probably shouldn't have even commented at all. It's just not for me. I like what I learned, and it was fun. The trainer was Flavio Almeida and I have no doubt that he would wipe my ass in a symphony of pain with whatever I tried to do to him. I listened, learned, and will return to my own training and be all the better for it.

But most guys I roll with aren't anywhere near that level of training.

[Christopher Cross Is God]

Techniques are never an end to themselves, but I promise you they change the amount of energy your opponent exerts on the mat. I've gotten to where if I go to the ground, I just "pinch" the inner thigh near the scrotum or a poke on the little tab just below the sternum to generate kuzushi. It works just fine. Most BJJ guys that I've rolled with aren't used to it all because they're training by the rules. I respect that really, it just doesn't always translate to street kuzushi.

They can be a disctraction. I've never pinched anyone near their scrotum, but if I felt like it I'd dig my elbows into the other guy's inner thighs while trying to pass guard......It was usually better for me not to do such, though, as taking such short-cuts would limit my training.

But, back to the topic of eye gouges & poking the trachea, it's more of a distraction than anything else.......Unless the person's stupid enough to not defend against it.

This kind of reminds me of a video I watched of Ryan Gracie against some guy in a "private match" (It was in someone's backyard)......His opponent tried to eye-gouge him, so Ryan moved his face while grabbing the guy's arm, then put his face directly against his opponent's face, and bit his opponent's earlobe off. That didn't end the fight (It finished later with a choke), but it was an interesting counter to an eye-gouge attempt.

The problem with a lot of BJJ guys is what you said, though, a lot of them focus on training for sport jiu-jitsu tournaments. So, unless they're also training for strikes & stand-up in general, they're limiting themselves.


The trainer was Flavio Almeida and I have no doubt that he would wipe my ass in a symphony of pain with whatever I tried to do to him.


But how would he be able to beat you if the main thing he knows is weight distribution? After all, this is what you said of your experience at the school:

"I learned some valuable things about weight distribution, but none of it translated into anything tangible outside the dojo."

[stamen]

But how would he be able to beat you if the main thing he knows is weight distribution? After all, this is what you said of your experience at the school:

"I learned some valuable things about weight distribution, but none of it translated into anything tangible outside the dojo."

How does what I said translate into what he knows? I have no idea what the guy knows, but I'd hate to find out. He must know quite a bit to be a two time world champion. We learned two take downs and their counters while I was there, but again, I didn't see much there I would use on the street. What was most helpful for me was learning weight distribution while on the ground to prevent yielding the dominant positions to your opponent.

These kinds of conversations are like little kids arguing over which is better, Mountain Dew or Mellow Yellow. It's why I pretty much avoid internet forums on martial arts, and day by day, learn to just keep silent and get back to training. My art form doesn't deal with a lot of the BJJ or MMA stuff, but we appreciate what these guys do enough to bring in someone of Flavio's quality to our area to help us all improve. When you think you can't learn from another art is when you get in real trouble. I think I was only one of two people there who weren't BJJ students, but we still invested our resources to help them build their school out of respect for the BJJ art form.

So I sampled some Mountain Dew and found that I still prefer Mellow Yellow. Doesn't mean I won't go grab a bottle of Food City's "Mountian Thunder" and give it a swig one day either. Or go back and give Mountain Dew a second or third look. And yes, I think the way I've been taught to fight is better. If I didn't think so, I'd change art forms. None of that changes the respect I have for other martial artists and their forms. Just because I like jazz doesn't mean I believe people who like blues don't understand music. I've learned over time that martial artists can get petty about their arts very quickly.

[Superbeast]

Guys, guys, guys...

Armbars and wristlocks and shit are good and all, but the truth is, eighty percent of fights end in a pool cue to the back of the head. The other twenty percent end with a broken bottle to the face. When're they gonna start televising bar fights already? :mad:

There are actually defenses against guys trying to swing or stab at you, although the stab counters are a lot less effective. I know a guy who got jumped on his way home, got stabbed in the side but managed to take two guys out and get his sprint on while the other three guys tended to the other two. Still ended up with a scar but at least he avoided a full 5 on 1 beatdown.

I will agree a lot of schools are too sport focused and don't cover the self defense aspects. I know Carlson Gracie, Rorion Gracie and Relson Gracie affliate or lineage schools make a point to teach them but a lot of places don't even attempt to teach self defense techniques or standing locks. A lot of schools don't even balance teaching takedowns with ground techniques. I am a Carlson Gracie lineage student and it's always been emphasised to me to avoid going to the ground. It makes me sad to see people pull guard. Why would you ever want to jump on someone like a startled koala?

[Jack Zodiac]

And y'know what nobody teaches anymore? How to throw a good headbutt. I went everywhere when I was a kid, karate classes, jujitsu, women's self-defense, just randomly headbutting people, and nobody wanted to go, "hey, that's now how you do it! This is how you do it!" and headbutt me back. Took me years of hard work, drinking, and practice to master the art of the concrete head.

Also, chuckin' whiskey bottles. Way easier to throw than knives.

[stamen]

Here's a video of some of the guys that were at the training. They're pretty much all good sportsmen and stand up fellas. Doctors, lawyers, clergy, etc. I heard that after I left, Flavio rolled with everyone who stuck around and beat them all. I can't imagine the kind of shape you have to be in to keep going like that.

I really do tip my hat to the guy, he's the real deal.

This video is from some local contests our school has been promoting along with some really great MMA enthusiasts. The ring in the video is located in our dojo across the street from my church:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI1fXYJVByM

This is one of our guys getting the absolute dog-doo-doo beat out him before he lands and triangle choke and gets the tap. He's is 18 years old and his opponent outweighed him by about 50 pounds. We were all really proud of him for taking that kind of punishment and keeping a cool head.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcyk_VZb2VE

[KevinTBrown]

-breaks a bottle over Jack's head to prove this point-

*hits Jack in the back of the head with a pool cue*

<--watches safely from behind the bar


**grabs bottle of beer to swill as Jack fights back**

[Cam63]

<--watches safely from behind the bar


**grabs bottle of beer to swill as Jack fights back**

It's like a kind of courtship... Aussie style !

[Superbeast]

And y'know what nobody teaches anymore? How to throw a good headbutt. I went everywhere when I was a kid, karate classes, jujitsu, women's self-defense, just randomly headbutting people, and nobody wanted to go, "hey, that's now how you do it! This is how you do it!" and headbutt me back. Took me years of hard work, drinking, and practice to master the art of the concrete head.

Also, chuckin' whiskey bottles. Way easier to throw than knives.

I take it you've never heard of Mark Coleman.

I feel this video is what you are looking. Never underestimate the kick in the balls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3K-mrlYG7Y

[Jack Zodiac]

Holy shit! Not only does he appreciate opening a fight with a swift kick in the groin, he encourages fighting dirty! And headbutts! And his onomatopoeias are amazing! :D

[Superbeast]

Holy shit! Not only does he appreciate opening a fight with a swift kick in the groin, he encourages fighting dirty! And headbutts! And his onomatopoeias are amazing! :D

I think his manners also need to be recognized. "He says that about my wife... I'm sorry sir, but I'm going to break your leg!"

He even apologises right before he slits a man's throat and gives them warnings to heed in the future while he smashes a person's head into the side of a bar table. His creativity also knows few boundaries. Tired of hitting them and stabbing them with a chair? Throw it at them and kick them in the balls while they attempt to catch it. Sound strategies to use when drunk and violent.

Bas Rutten = The Polite Killer.

[Ben Morgan]

*tapes beer bottle to head, headbutts Jack*

[Lester C.]

They need to rename it. Mixed Martial Arts is about fighting and it's cool to see guys with different styles and skill levels go at it. But Martial Arts isn't about fighting but following The Way. Sure there is sparring involved but that has nothing to do with the fighting you see on Mixed Martial arts.

[Superbeast]

They need to rename it. Mixed Martial Arts is about fighting and it's cool to see guys with different styles and skill levels go at it. But Martial Arts isn't about fighting but following The Way. Sure there is sparring involved but that has nothing to do with the fighting you see on Mixed Martial arts.

Well in light of the fact most guys train three martial arts disciplines or more, it's not totally inappropriate.

[Lester C.]

Well in light of the fact most guys train three martial arts disciplines or more, it's not totally inappropriate.

I'm not saying these guys are not martial artists. They are, and good ones. I'm just saying that they are also fighters and mixed martial arts is about fghting not martial arts. It's just a pet peeve of mine, as I do have respect for what they do.

[Cam63]

*tapes beer bottle to head, headbutts Jack*

You have achieved honourary Australian citizenship with that move, Ben.

[Cam63]

Holy shit! Not only does he appreciate opening a fight with a swift kick in the groin, he encourages fighting dirty! And headbutts! And his onomatopoeias are amazing! :D

I was always told, " Go for the eyes, throat and groin " in self defense.

...or was it an Australian mating ritual ?

Hmm... *Lights beer and sips pipe as I ponder*

[Superbeast]

I'm not saying these guys are not martial artists. They are, and good ones. I'm just saying that they are also fighters and mixed martial arts is about fghting not martial arts. It's just a pet peeve of mine, as I do have respect for what they do.

By definition a martial art is any practiced system of actions and techniques that can be used in combat. All martial artists train for the purpose of fighting or using their knowledge in self defense when someone attempts to fight them. So all martial artists are fighters, just sometimes it's due to uncontrollable circumstances and other times it's in a controlled sport environment. So I'm not sure what you are peeved about. They are martial artists testing their skills and using their technical knowledge against one another in unarmed combat. I'm not quite sure what you define as martial arts.

[Alex L]

He's saying -- or at least I think he's saying -- that mixed martial arts doesn't encompass the entirety of martial arts.

In Japanese MA's, there are two components: the jutsu (technique) and the do (the way/path).

MMA focuses on the jutsu's... but we never see any of the do's.

Not sure if that's a problem, or if it is a problem how it can be addressed, but that's what I think he's talking about.

And not all martial artists train for combat. There's also a strong exercise component that brings people in. I can do a few kung fu forms and be drenched in sweat, far more than 30 minutes on the treadmill, as well as feeling very warmed-up and stretched out.

[Ben Morgan]

You have achieved honourary Australian citizenship with that move, Ben.Sweet! What can I do with it?