Interesting ... Batman "news" (re: RIP)

[diana_fan]

From the 'Rama run-down of the DC Countdown to Crisis panel, this quote caught my attention:

He also mentioned Grant Morrison’s upcoming “Batman R.I.P.” and with a deep, cryptic voice said, “…and we mean it this time,” to the laughter of the audience. Marts added, Grant is not afraid to take risks,” and that, “[Morrison] is going to change the legend of the Dark Knight.” He also made it clear that the ramifications of the “Batman R.I.P.” storyline would at least affect the Batman book well into 2010.


Fascinating. This whole "Batman RIP" story-line sounds compelling. And I really hope that no editor or Morrison himself feels the need to give to "just too much" info before it actually begins.

But when Morrison was interviewed about his run on Batman, he said he would love to stay indefinitely, as he has many stories to tell, and a lot of work to do with the character. Here, we find out that whatever the heck they are doing with Bats will last through at least 2010.

This all intrigues me, as it sounds like Morrison really has something BIG planned. Whatever that is, however, I don't really know. Clearly all the clues to both Golden Age and Silver Age stories mean something. And I think that Bruce's sanity will be at the center of the whole concept (given the stories so far, the references to the Isolation Experiments, etc.).

Anyhow, it all sounds interesting, and I can't wait.

[Jack Zodiac]

Fuck, if Morrison wrote Batman for at least the next two years, I'd be happier then hell with it. Everything he's done so far, while feeling like a slow boil at first, has since this last issue become one of the most compelling, solid Batman stories I have ever read. The guy's great, fuckin' genius, and I can't wait to see what else he has in store for the character, and for the DCU altogether.

[diana_fan]

Fuck, if Morrison wrote Batman for at least the next two years, I'd be happier then hell with it. Everything he's done so far, while feeling like a slow boil at first, has since this last issue become one of the most compelling, solid Batman stories I have ever read. The guy's great, fuckin' genius, and I can't wait to see what else he has in store for the character, and for the DCU altogether.

I couldn't agree more. I always felt, from the beginning, that it was classic Morrison: Wouldn't seem like a lot was happening at first, but once you saw more and more, it would come together, and you'd be like "HOLY $#%&! That's freakin' awesome!"

And that's exactly how it seems to me now.

[Kerny]

I'm more interested in his future Vertigo stuff and ASS future issues that he mentioned in his ASS interview then this slow burn on Batman. To each his own though :)

[diana_fan]

I'm more interested in his future Vertigo stuff and ASS future issues that he mentioned in his ASS interview then this slow burn on Batman. To each his own though :)

Yeah, but you're the K-Man. So ... :)

[Kerny]

Yeah, but you're the K-Man. So ... :)
Which makes me correct 98% of the time. It's science really. ;)

[diana_fan]

Which makes me correct 98% of the time. It's science really. ;)

No. It doesn't.

Then again, Addy and I are really bored, and for various reasons, neither of us can make a chat. Make one. I'll be nice to you.

[Jack Zodiac]

I'm more interested in his future Vertigo stuff and ASS future issues that he mentioned in his ASS interview then this slow burn on Batman. To each his own though :)

Well, I won't lie, I'm enjoying his All-Star Superman even more than his Batman, but his Bat-stories come out regularly, whereas his Superman stories come out whenever the hell. Worth the wait, absolutely, but I'm looking forward to seeing where his whole "Three Ghosts," "Black Casebook" storyline is goin' more than his Superman and the Underverse storyline.

And as disenfranchised as I am with most of DC's editorial decisions these past five years, putting Grant in charge of two of the greatest books they're publishing for two of their biggest characters is the greatest move they've made in forever.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

I'll still take Dini's Detective over it any day.

Not that I dislike Grant's work, I just prefer Dini's more traditional tales of nice little cases for Bats to solve and battles against the classic rogues.

The surreal Morrison stuff isn't really what I want in Batman.

[Jack Zodiac]

I like Dini's stories because they cover what Batman's basically about: great detective work, sense of family, and fun adventure. Morrison's Batman, much like his All-Star Superman, is a deeper look at the fundamentals of both characters: Superman's melancholy reflection and Batman's obsessive sense of justice. And then there's Miller's crazy-ridiculous "to the point of parody" Batman in All-Star Batman and Robin. Really, between all of the different books with different takes on the character, it's probably the greatest time ever to be a Batman fan right now.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

True enough, I think Batman, along with the X-Men, is one of the strongest franchises going in mainstream comics right now because both franchises have several strong series going at once, and each with a different feel to them.

[NickThompson]

I'll still take Dini's Detective over it any day.

Not that I dislike Grant's work, I just prefer Dini's more traditional tales of nice little cases for Bats to solve and battles against the classic rogues.

The surreal Morrison stuff isn't really what I want in Batman.
I agree, but that's something that works really well. Dini gives us Detective Batman, down on the ground. Morrison gives us Superhero Batman, more over the top as such. If you're going to do multiple books for one character, that's how you do it.


True enough, I think Batman, along with the X-Men, is one of the strongest franchises going in mainstream comics right now because both franchises have several strong series going at once, and each with a different feel to them.
I agree with that too :)

[singoalla]

*tongue in cheek*

So, if they do kill Bruce we can expect him to return sometime in 2010? Just so's I know when to start subscribing again :p

[stamen]

My only real problem is this whole idea of writer's leaving "their mark" on characters. Writers like Morrison can probably pull it off, although I'd rank what I'm reading now as far less enjoyable than classic Dini Tec stories. What you get is a rare writer than can leave a lasting mark on the franchise, and about three dozen others who think they can do it, and they end up totally FUBAR-ing the DCU.

[Netley]

Whatever happened to Bane? You think Morrison will throw him in the mix as some kind of homage to the original "Breaking of the Bat"?

[Jack Zodiac]

I trust Morrison, though. He's a thumb writer. A lot of writers'll hit a lot of keys with their characters and fill 'em with all kinds of messed up, unnecessary shit, but Morrison usually plays it close to the basics. That's why, save for a little exaggeration on Batman, his JLA was so great. He definitely left a mark with the entire team on his run, and every character in it in the process, even the minor ones. And his mark on Superman is already made. People will be remembering All-Star Superman forever. And already he's at least garnering attention for his crazy writing on Batman, and if he can pull it off, which I know he can, people will always remember his run vividly. Unlike a slew of other writers who handle some of these characters for a little while and just mess their shit up.

Yeah, as it goes, right now, DC's got some great people in charge of their big characters. Gail on Wonder Woman, Morrison on both Batman and All-Star Superman, Johns on Action Comics, and for the time being, Busiek on Superman and Dini on Detective Comics. Not bad.

[diana_fan]

My only real problem is this whole idea of writer's leaving "their mark" on characters. Writers like Morrison can probably pull it off, although I'd rank what I'm reading now as far less enjoyable than classic Dini Tec stories. What you get is a rare writer than can leave a lasting mark on the franchise, and about three dozen others who think they can do it, and they end up totally FUBAR-ing the DCU.

I think, personally, that Dini is doing basically *nothing* with 'Tec. It bores me. Individual stories might be ok, here and there. But the whole? Nah. Just sort of sitting there.

[PatrickG]

Whatever happened to Bane? You think Morrison will throw him in the mix as some kind of homage to the original "Breaking of the Bat"?

I don't know... But I think the "Breaking of the Bat" probably has to come from "The Repairing of Bruce Wayne".

The worst thing you can do to Batman is to take away his pain, make his life better, make him crack a smile.

I think it would be interesting if Jezebel Jet turns out to be Batman's greatest enemy -- by making him HAPPY for a change. And then you get to play with all the weird levels of audience-hero-villain attraction and dynamics.

I've noticed that a lot of Superman fans seem jealous of Lois Lane, both as a rival and as an evil step-mom who weighs down their cool foster father figure. And readers love conflict and may come to hate people who eliminate conflict.

My gut says that will be the direction that Batman RIP takes, with Jezebel Jet as a positive force in Bruce's life but one which threatens Batman's existence.

And it's been done in various ways, notably in Batman Forever.

But never direct and to the point.

What if Bruce met a woman who said, "Be happy. You can fight crime more efficiently with your money. And if you want some vigilante action, don't bother with the mask; you're the richest man alive and have the world's greatest lawyers. Stand up and let the world know why you do what you do and I'll even beat up criminals with you. Just put this Batman nonsense aside. If Batman beats up a criminal, it's some childish boogeyman with issues. If Bruce Wayne does it, maybe people will get the message not to go around shooting people's parents. Sounds like fun to me."

[Astonishing X-Fan]

I think, personally, that Dini is doing basically *nothing* with 'Tec. It bores me. Individual stories might be ok, here and there. But the whole? Nah. Just sort of sitting there.

I don't get this logic. Just because he isn't doing multi-part stories or "changing Batman's world as we know it!" or something like that doesn't mean he's "done nothing".

Do you fault BTAS for telling self-contained stories for pretty much it's entire run?

It's not like he hasn't progressed things, either. Harley's reformed. Ivy is scared of her own "subjects". Riddler's become a succesful PI. Ra's is stuck in Arkham. A brand new Ventriloquist has taken the stage.

I don't get it. He's simply taken the characters and told good stories with them. What's so bad about that?

[diana_fan]

I don't get this logic. Just because he isn't doing multi-part stories or "changing Batman's world as we know it!" or something like that doesn't mean he's "done nothing".

Do you fault BTAS for telling self-contained stories for pretty much it's entire run?

It's not like he hasn't progressed things, either. Harley's reformed. Ivy is scared of her own "subjects". Riddler's become a succesful PI. Ra's is stuck in Arkham. A brand new Ventriloquist has taken the stage.

I don't get it. He's simply taken the characters and told good stories with them. What's so bad about that?

First, BATS didn't cost me anything. 'Tec costs me $2.50 an issue.

But beyond that, it just sort of bores me. I don't feel like the entire story is going anywhere, in particular. Now, maybe I'm wrong, and it IS going somewhere. Maybe Dini DOES has some grand scheme.

But so far, it's little stories about characters, and I don't feel ENGROSSED. Whereas with Morrison, for example, I've felt intrigued since the beginnin, as if I were part of some awesome, large idea.

[stealthwise]

1) For the most part, Dini's Tec is fucking AMAZINGly good. The last issue with Jervis... not so much, but overall it's rocked hard. That Joker/Robin issue at Xmas time is already classic in my mind. I'm really excited to see where he takes the book. And I bought all four volumes of BTAS, and they were worth well more than every penny, btw.

2) When's Morrison's first trade out? I only have the 666 issue, which was ok, but seemed like fun fluff when I read it.

[stamen]

I think, personally, that Dini is doing basically *nothing* with 'Tec. It bores me. Individual stories might be ok, here and there. But the whole? Nah. Just sort of sitting there.

There is no real "development" per sea, just fun stories. To me, Dini treats Batman like about any other writer treats James Bond. After 40 years of Bond, what are you really going to do with the character to make him more enjoyable? People show up to the theater, knowing full well what they're going to get, and 9 out of 10 Bond flicks deliver. They are not ground-breaking, or Academy Awards winners, but most people didn't expect them to be when they dropped their $8 on the ticket.

So supposing someone came in and decided to tinker with Bond... maybe kill him off and give us the life adventures of 009. Meh. Again, what are you really going to do with the character that you couldn't do with Bond? Make him married, give him recurring hemmoroids... I dunno, its the same story wearing different clothes.

I think Morrison has the ability to do something great with Batman-- maybe something different even. But that remains to be seen. My only gripe is that most comic writers think they're doing it, or can do it. And the results lately have been piss poor for the DCU.

[Netley]

I don't know... But I think the "Breaking of the Bat" probably has to come from "The Repairing of Bruce Wayne".

The worst thing you can do to Batman is to take away his pain, make his life better, make him crack a smile.

I think it would be interesting if Jezebel Jet turns out to be Batman's greatest enemy -- by making him HAPPY for a change. And then you get to play with all the weird levels of audience-hero-villain attraction and dynamics.

I've noticed that a lot of Superman fans seem jealous of Lois Lane, both as a rival and as an evil step-mom who weighs down their cool foster father figure. And readers love conflict and may come to hate people who eliminate conflict.

My gut says that will be the direction that Batman RIP takes, with Jezebel Jet as a positive force in Bruce's life but one which threatens Batman's existence.

And it's been done in various ways, notably in Batman Forever.

But never direct and to the point.

What if Bruce met a woman who said, "Be happy. You can fight crime more efficiently with your money. And if you want some vigilante action, don't bother with the mask; you're the richest man alive and have the world's greatest lawyers. Stand up and let the world know why you do what you do and I'll even beat up criminals with you. Just put this Batman nonsense aside. If Batman beats up a criminal, it's some childish boogeyman with issues. If Bruce Wayne does it, maybe people will get the message not to go around shooting people's parents. Sounds like fun to me."

Interesting idea! I never thought about that before, Bruce Wayne could totally fight crime more effectively using his wealth. Street crime is most often caused by desperate people. If Bruce started a homeless shelter and/or a drug rehab center, I bet that would clean up Gotham much faster than one mugging at a time. (But I guess I'm not sure how supervillains would fit into that equation haha.)

[Astonishing X-Fan]

First, BATS didn't cost me anything. 'Tec costs me $2.50 an issue.

But beyond that, it just sort of bores me. I don't feel like the entire story is going anywhere, in particular. Now, maybe I'm wrong, and it IS going somewhere. Maybe Dini DOES has some grand scheme.

But so far, it's little stories about characters, and I don't feel ENGROSSED. Whereas with Morrison, for example, I've felt intrigued since the beginnin, as if I were part of some awesome, large idea.

But that's my point. Why does there have to be a "grand scheme"?

Why can't it just be good stories about good characters?

[PatrickG]

Interesting idea! I never thought about that before, Bruce Wayne could totally fight crime more effectively using his wealth. Street crime is most often caused by desperate people. If Bruce started a homeless shelter and/or a drug rehab center, I bet that would clean up Gotham much faster than one mugging at a time. (But I guess I'm not sure how supervillains would fit into that equation haha.)

We are talking about a universe where Lex Luthor was president after blowing up Metropolis. It's also a universe where Bruce Wayne has been arrested multiple times for murder and child abuse, survived brain damage and recovered to peak physical and mental condition AND recovered from paralysis.

And early in Morrison's run, we had Bruce Wayne talking about using the multiverse to develop new sexual techniques at an art exhibit...

Bruce Wayne could totally fight super-villains.

I'm not suggesting he unmask or reveal that he was ever Batman.

I'm just suggesting that Bruce Wayne goes around publicly acting as a vigilante and then telling people they can talk to his legal team if they don't like it.

If his goal is to inspire faith in the average person to do what's right, he can inspire that better by not pretending to be anything other than human. No excuses or supernatural pretenses or parlor tricks or gimmicks. "I can do this, so can you."

And it's not really impossible to back pedal on either. It doesn't break anything.

Look at the various celebrity hobbies out there. Now, tell me it would even stand out if a millionaire started beating up thugs and swinging around on rooftops in the DCU when you've got the Challengers of the Unknown and others doing basically just that.

[diana_fan]

But that's my point. Why does there have to be a "grand scheme"?

Why can't it just be good stories about good characters?

It's Batman. If you are going to tell Batman stories, then, honestly? Let's bring it on!

I want a total mythology. I want a complete milieu. But that's just me.

[Alan Lynch]

I'll still take Dini's Detective over it any day.

Not that I dislike Grant's work, I just prefer Dini's more traditional tales of nice little cases for Bats to solve and battles against the classic rogues.

The surreal Morrison stuff isn't really what I want in Batman.
I agree totally; I'm loving what Dini's doing with Batman. And much as I love some Morrison, I gave up on his run a while ago. I hate Damien, and I wasn't all that interested in whatever the grand scheme was.
Whatever happened to Bane? You think Morrison will throw him in the mix as some kind of homage to the original "Breaking of the Bat"?
Didn't he reform? I've been off and on with Batman over the years though so I probably missed something.
It's Batman. If you are going to tell Batman stories, then, honestly? Let's bring it on!

I want a total mythology. I want a complete milieu. But that's just me.
No idea where Morrison is taking things, but I'll believe he's changed anything substantial when I see it. The Batman franchise hasn't changed - not really - since Miller made it darker in the 80s. Anyone coming in off one of the movies or cartoons can feel right at home, because it's all the same. So Robin's name might have changed, and for a while there Comissioner Gordon was AWOL. But new readers are never more than an issue or so away from catching up.

Batman is so ingrained in the public consciousness, IMO, that at this point it's not possible to make big, lasting changes. Bruce Wayne will always be Batman, even if he does take the occasional holiday. He's too big not to be.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

Bane's been involved with the new Suicide Squad, but was recently betrayed by Waller and sent to the prison world.

[Rattlehead]

2) When's Morrison's first trade out? I only have the 666 issue, which was ok, but seemed like fun fluff when I read it.

So far, there is no trade. But his entire first arc, "Batman and Son", has been collected in a hardback. I went ahead and picked up the HC, as it could be a long wait for the tpb, especially considereing Infinite Crisis was just released as a tpb.

[diana_fan]

So far, there is no trade. But his entire first arc, "Batman and Son", has been collected in a hardback. I went ahead and picked up the HC, as it could be a long wait for the tpb, especially considereing Infinite Crisis was just released as a tpb.

And the HC is gorgeous. I was looking it at Border's while having a coffee, and I was SO damned tempted to buy it, even though I already have the individual issues.

[Sarah Beach]

Although I think Morrison can indeed write a good Batman story ... I also do not like Damien. On top of that the whole "Club of Heroes" story was a BLATANT rip-off (not homage - considering there was no variation in the beats or the resolution) of Agatha Christie's And Then There Were None.

Come on, if he's so smart (Morrison, that is), why in the world did he need to do that?

There've been a few occasions where I've gone "What the heck?" in his stories in a very bad way. One issue (I forget which), the bad guy gets away, is still loose in Gotham and Batman knows it, and instead of committing himself to continuing to catch the villain, Bruce goes off to Europe for an encounter with Jezebel! EXCUSE ME????? Way out of character there, not justified. (And don't tell me that "it's part of a big plan" - because the writer is obliged in those circumstances to give the reader at least a little hit about it all.)

But frankly, I am SICK AND TIRED of all these "It. Will. Change. Everything." stories. I just want some good stories about my favorite character doing what he does best: the world's best detective.

And they won't be killing Bruce, although I understand that was originally intended. Warners wouldn't let them do it. Thank you, Warners!

[Tobias March]

Although I think Morrison can indeed write a good Batman story ... I also do not like Damien. On top of that the whole "Club of Heroes" story was a BLATANT rip-off (not homage - considering there was no variation in the beats or the resolution) of Agatha Christie's And Then There Were None.

Come on, if he's so smart (Morrison, that is), why in the world did he need to do that?[/i]

To be honest, much as I love Morrison, I cannot think of an instance in his writing where I didn't recognize an element from somewhere. Now in fairness he frequently does point these references out - after reading his introduction to the first Doom Patrol trade I went out and bought When Rabbit Howled to understand where Crazy Jane came from.

[MPagar]

But frankly, I am SICK AND TIRED of all these "It. Will. Change. Everything." stories. I just want some good stories about my favorite character doing what he does best: the world's best detective.

Amen to this one. Specially since we all know that 99% of it won't last.

I've learned not to underestimate Morrison's ability to set up a massive epic event. I'm actually very excited for this one, though sometimes he does get over his head in regards to the mind boggling, crazy shit he loves.

[stealthwise]

So far, there is no trade. But his entire first arc, "Batman and Son", has been collected in a hardback. I went ahead and picked up the HC, as it could be a long wait for the tpb, especially considereing Infinite Crisis was just released as a tpb.

I don't ever really saw this, but fuck off DC. Bloody money grab. They know that there's an audience for singles and an audience for trades, and it looks like they're trying to bleed the audience for trades when they do shit like this.

[Rattlehead]

I don't ever really saw this, but fuck off DC. Bloody money grab. They know that there's an audience for singles and an audience for trades, and it looks like they're trying to bleed the audience for trades when they do shit like this.

That's pretty much it. The trade/HC system at DC is a mess, and there's no guarantees on anything getting collected outside of Vertigo. It's even worse for things on the WildStorm side, StomWatch PHD wrapped up 6 months ago, and there's still no Volume 2 trade, nor is there a Vol 2 for Welcome to Tranquility.

[JKCarrier]

The trade/HC system at DC is a mess, and there's no guarantees on anything getting collected outside of Vertigo.

Not even then. Where's my FINALS trade, dammit?

[Astonishing X-Fan]

One thing I love about Marvel: they collect pretty much everything, and do so in a speedy fashion.

[MPagar]

One thing I love about Marvel: they collect pretty much everything, and do so in a speedy fashion.

And to think that less than a decade ago, Marvel had severe issues with their trades. Probably the best thing Jemas had done for the company.