So I finally read Wanted...

[Superbeast]

... and I have to say I'm kind of amused. It's like a comic book version of "Hooker With a Penis" by Tool without the awesome drums.

However it really left me thinking that if Millar despises the typical comic book fan and views them as pathetic, why cater to them and work in the comic industry?

Is it meant to highlight his own hypocrisy and the irony of him also working a job he dislikes for comic book fans to then criticise his work and insult him when he can't do anything about it?

Is his choice of using film actors/rappers appearances as the basis for many of his own characters indicative of his own desires and aspirations to work alongside people he doesn't, so instead he gets his collaborating artist to allow him the opportunity to work with facsimiles of them?

Is his choice to work in comics first his "slumming it" stage?

Are we meant to go out and become selfish sociopaths so we can know what it is to really "enjoy life"? :D

Maybe I'm overanalysing the whole thing, but it does seem to be, as some have said, "the anti-Watchmen" in more ways than one. Insofar as Watchmen tried to up the ante and show some respect for comic books fans appreciation of the visual medium and complex multilayered storylines, it seems Wanted basically seeks to file comic fans under the "lame, unfit losers going nowhere with too much time on their hands" category. Whereas one tried to set new standards and challenge people's opinions of what comics can be, the other seeks to use stereotypes in the hopes it will attract stereotypes so the writer can then mock them for being stereotypes.

I'm sure there is some truth to that otherwise the stereotype wouldn't exist *looks at other forum with a guy complaining he can't buy XXXL shirts not realising being obese isn't exactly healthy or cost efficient for companies to cater to* but I can't help but feel it's an attempt to tar us all with the same brush.

So... thoughts?

Oh yeah, I know this is a bit out of left field for the forum but I figured this place was my best hope for intelligent responses.

[Lester C.]

I thought the book was Miller's commentary on society in general rather than just comic book fans.

[StarsAndGarters]

I think that's a valid interpretation of the ending. When I'm feeling more generous towards Millar, the other reading was that he was being kind of meta, claiming that the world is already run by supervillains and that that's why the world's so horrible. But yeah, the general consensus seems to be that Millar hates fanboys.

[kingdom2000]

To bad the movie doesn't follow the comics evil vs evil gimmick.

As for the hating the comic fanboys, I didn't read it that way. Until someone pointed it out didn't even notice. However, frankly I agree with him. The hardcore comics fans out there are a-holes and deserve the ridicule.

I wonder, could Wanted be a litmus test to determine those that are not hardcore (or at least don't consider them to be) and would probably not be all that bothered by the book while those that are (and therefore seeing themselves in the book) would be upset. Is there a way to scientifically test this?

[Tobias March]

I felt the casting of Eminem and Halle Berry as it were was parasitic. In the Ultimates/Thunderbolts it was amusing - hell Christopher Walken turned up in an issue of Jonah Hex - but Wanted was chasing that development deal from the outset, whereas Watchmen, if the comparison needs to be made, is a celebration of the very form of comics. Hence the panel to panel synchronicity and the comic within the comic - the academic paper on Joe Orlando etc.

Wanted is Millar's* forged passport to Hollywood.










*I once heard him claim the Long Kiss Goodnight is the best film script ever.

[Charles RB]

I can no longer read or see anything to do with Mark Millar without remembering a recent Alan Grant interview (Judge Dredd Megazine #268).

"For my sins I helped Mark Millar, but I've never seen a good word from him. I have seen insults about me in print from him. At the time it bugged me a little. We let him stay at our house. A week later he's in the paper saying him and Grant Morrison are the true master [sic] of comics, not like yesterday's men who live in big houses full of antiques. Fuck! I gave you your fucking tea! Why didn't you say that when you were here? The answer, of course, is simple - he'd have gotten a broken nose for his troubles."

[Chris Hansbrough]

if the last line of the movie isnt This Is My Face While I'm Fucking You In The Ass!!! I'm gonna be disapointed.

[diana_fan]

I can no longer read or see anything to do with Mark Millar without remembering a recent Alan Grant interview (Judge Dredd Megazine #268).

"For my sins I helped Mark Millar, but I've never seen a good word from him. I have seen insults about me in print from him. At the time it bugged me a little. We let him stay at our house. A week later he's in the paper saying him and Grant Morrison are the true master [sic] of comics, not like yesterday's men who live in big houses full of antiques. Fuck! I gave you your fucking tea! Why didn't you say that when you were here? The answer, of course, is simple - he'd have gotten a broken nose for his troubles."

Jeez. Without knowing what happened myself, I don't want to be TOO intense. But that very much makes Millar out to be a complete asshole.

I was very turned off by Millar's post-Civil War interview. It seemed as though he either didn't get what he had just written, was being intentionally dense, or was flat out lying. (I suppose the fourth option is that he had convinced himself that he had written something other than what he had.)

I've never read Wanted, but I've got to say that the OP doesn't really encourage me to do so.

[Charles RB]

But that very much makes Millar out to be a complete asshole.

I've seen quotes of 90s interviews with Millar where he was saying "the older guys are jealous because I can do what they can do but they can't do what I can do" - can't remember where though.

[diana_fan]

I've seen quotes of 90s interviews with Millar where he was saying "the older guys are jealous because I can do what they can do but they can't do what I can do" - can't remember where though.

Well a little bravado in the young is not, in and of itself, bad. You see this all the time in sports for instance, with the new hot rookie (who, btw, is often quickly disabused of his "TOTAL PWNAGE" of the game :)).

But there are different ways to go about it, and some make you seem like a jerk, and some just exhibit a healthy confidence.

[Apex Tech]

I loved it. Personally, I always wanted Millar to put it up my ass. It almost felt real with Wanted.

As for the hating the comic fanboys, I didn't read it that way. Until someone pointed it out didn't even notice. However, frankly I agree with him. The hardcore comics fans out there are a-holes and deserve the ridicule.

It isn't aimed at comic fans in general. Just people who keep a crappy jobs and fake relationships to buy more stuff or redeem themselves.

[Stressfactor]

I was done with "Wanted" and Millar in general when he started throwing rape around as a joke. I'm sorry, I KNOW it's supposed to be black humor and satire and all of that but that is ONE subject you really just don't joke about. I don't care if you ARE trying to be saterical... that crap isn't funny.

[beetlebum]

I was done with "Wanted" and Millar in general when he started throwing rape around as a joke. I'm sorry, I KNOW it's supposed to be black humor and satire and all of that but that is ONE subject you really just don't joke about. I don't care if you ARE trying to be saterical... that crap isn't funny.

Dear God, that makes me not want to read it at all!

[Apex Tech]

I was done with "Wanted" and Millar in general when he started throwing rape around as a joke. I'm sorry, I KNOW it's supposed to be black humor and satire and all of that but that is ONE subject you really just don't joke about. I don't care if you ARE trying to be saterical... that crap isn't funny.

All in context, dear. It's not like he laughs when he hears it on the news.

[Stressfactor]

Dear God, that makes me not want to read it at all!

I was skimming through it at my local bookstore a few years back and one scene jumped out at me where the main character, Wesley, talks about murdering a bunch of people (simply because he can) then mentions raping a hot starlet. Another character tells him that they don't go around killing and raping *all* the time...

I put the book back on the shelf and walked away.

Honestly, I don't think Millar writes female characters very well anyway.

[Apex Tech]

I was skimming through it at my local bookstore a few years back and one scene jumped out at me where the main character, Wesley, talks about murdering a bunch of people (simply because he can) then mentions raping a hot starlet. Another character tells him that they don't go around killing and raping *all* the time...

I put the book back on the shelf and walked away.

Honestly, I don't think Millar writes female characters very well anyway.

It's hard to keep a woman in comics inside of the kitchen yet outside of the fridge.

[beetlebum]

I was skimming through it at my local bookstore a few years back and one scene jumped out at me where the main character, Wesley, talks about murdering a bunch of people (simply because he can) then mentions raping a hot starlet. Another character tells him that they don't go around killing and raping *all* the time...

I put the book back on the shelf and walked away.

Honestly, I don't think Millar writes female characters very well anyway.

:eek: :( :(

[Superbeast]

I got the Wanted Dossier one shot and it has a foreword for the basis of the idea, that his brother said to him the reason wars were going on is because the supervillains beat the superheroes and they were all dead. Okay, fine premise for the story. If he was going for the "the whole world is run by villains in real life, we are but pawns in the bigger scheme unless we go over to the side that runs the show behind the curtain", I'll go with that since there were obvious allusions to Freemasonry as well as the various lodges and sects of it around the world. The whole lapel pin was an obvious allusion to freemason rings in design, the fraternity an obvious allusion to members of the FMs calling each other "brothers". So, I'll accept that spin on it. However I do think the idea of claiming people reading comics are wasting their time compared to the hours writers, colourists, inkers, editors and artists spend creating them, pitching them, drawing them and polishing them is deeply ironic. The deeply superficial tone of the entire of the story, largely based around the idea of meaningless sex, treating people like crap, killing anyone that bothers you and abandoning all morality for the sake of short term gain, especially in light of the whole "the Killer did what he did so his son might one day truly be a man" thing that then got spun into patricide for his inheritance money... I enjoyed the Ultimates but Wanted just came across like some rich trust fund fratboy "I'm better than you even though I'm not much different" masturbatory crap. Millar casting himself in the mold of Eminem... that's quite humorous in itself.

[diana_fan]

It's hard to keep a woman in comics inside of the kitchen yet outside of the fridge.

Umm ... HUH?!

[Alex L]

I was skimming through it at my local bookstore a few years back and one scene jumped out at me where the main character, Wesley, talks about murdering a bunch of people (simply because he can) then mentions raping a hot starlet. Another character tells him that they don't go around killing and raping *all* the time...

I put the book back on the shelf and walked away.

Honestly, I don't think Millar writes female characters very well anyway.

True, but Wesley is not supposed to be a very likable character.

In fact, none of the characters are supposed to be likable.

It's fine if you feel it was inappropriate for Millar to have put that subject matter in Wanted... but to be fair (to those who haven't read it) it wasn't meant at all to condone or glorify that behavior.

Every single panel and word balloon on that particular page is meant to make you think, "man.. this guy is expletive'd in the head" not "this guy is awesome and bad-ass."

[Stressfactor]

True. But I, personally, did find his use of that subject in a rather cavalier manner to be inappropriate. Even if we were supposed to think "This guy is f'ed in the head."

Like I said, I know Millar was using satire -- I've read Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal". But I still think there are lines that should not be crossed even for satrical purposes.

[Netley]

I read it back when it came out. It was OK, but I was pretty disappointed based on what the hype made it out to be. I love Millar's stuff, but this (imo) is some of his weaker work, and I'm baffled as to how anyone could compare this to Watchmen - they're apples and oranges (or at the very least Watchmen is an apple and Wanted is an apple core).

And Eminem's face on the main character? Come on, that was just annoying. Samuel L Jackson as Fury was brilliant, but that was a great take on a character who had history. With Wanted, it was just like "meet our main character, who looks like Eminem." I'm sorry, but that just seems lame to me.

Now Hollywood's going to make a watered-down version of an OK comic, once again misrepresenting the medium to the mainstream public. Bleh.

[Charles RB]

And they're making the film about assassins instead of supervillains.

Why the hell did you buy the adaptation rights for a comic about supervillains and then drop the supervillains?

[stealthwise]

Just read it now.

I'm not pissed about the ending, or concerned about all the rape and violence etc (yeah, I know, what does that say about ME? Means I've read too much shite, I suppose...), but the whole thing felt, well, pretty pointless.

The thing that actually pissed me off was reading BKV's introduction to the volume. He calls Millar the best writer working in superhero comics and praises the book while defending the ending. Sorry, BKV, but while I love your writing, you have some terrible fucking taste at times. I remember raising an eyebrow when he was lavishing praise on some questionable decisions by Whedon, but that intro took the cake.

To be honest, the latest issue of GL Corps was much better written and had more of a point than Wanted ever did.

[Charles RB]

or concerned about all the rape and violence etc (yeah, I know, what does that say about ME?

Well, if it was me, I'd be saying "Garth Ennis and John Wagner did it better. Often" and then going "fuck, I want to be reading their comics instead" and then I would.

Hell, I want to do it right now (and did earlier).

[jesse_custer]

This book is like Millar really wanting to be Garth Ennis writing super villains.

[NickThompson]

*I once heard him claim the Long Kiss Goodnight is the best film script ever.

What's wrong with that claim? I've never read it, but I know LKG was strongly rewritten. You ever read Shane Black's script?




Personally I enjoyed both Wanted and the movie.

[bert]

it was a teenage Wizard fan, jacking off all over the page. .

"tee-hee. . I made the Batman villians clever!"

"Shit head! teeeheeeheee"

utter, complete crap, with perhaps a corn kernal of a good idea clinging to it.

[The Beast Of Yucca Flats]

With the exception of some of his Superman material (what I've seen of his Adventures book, Red Son), I too have pretty much always found Millar to be a longtime resident of Secondbananaville.

[stealthwise]

Well, if it was me, I'd be saying "Garth Ennis and John Wagner did it better. Often" and then going "fuck, I want to be reading their comics instead" and then I would.

Hell, I want to do it right now (and did earlier).

Yeah, I was thinking more like a second-rate Warren Ellis, with less creativity and scope of vision. There were a few cool things in it, but really not that great. I found the same with CHOSEN.

I can totally see why Millar's stuff is a dream for Hollywood, as there's the barebones for a good film in most of his work and no one will really give a shit if they change everything.

[Matt Doc Martin]

If it helps, Millar has the weakest handshake ever.

[Charles RB]

utter, complete crap, with perhaps a corn kernal of a good idea clinging to it.

Still, a lot of people like it, so it's a step-up on the Judge Dredd strips he used to do...

(Which John Wagner could also do better. Well, obviously.)

Yeah, I was thinking more like a second-rate Warren Ellis, with less creativity and scope of vision.

And yet he was specifically chosen by Warren to follow his Authority run and he did the intro to Titan's Ministry Of Space trade (the afterword by Warren on the history of space programs, Britain's dreams of space-flight, Von Braun's vision and Warren's own yearning is far, far better). And, as said above, Brian Vaughan thinks Wanted and Millar rock.

What's it they're seeing that we're missing?

[Corrina]

I have no idea.

I do know I lost a ton of respect for Joss Whedon's judgment when he did the intro for "Identity Crisis," and praised it to the skies.

[Charles RB]

You know, I liked Identity Crisis at the time and still liked parts even when I could see the flaws in it (haven't reread in years so this could have changed). I still wouldn't praise it as wonderful, and I'm nowhere near as good as Joss.

I wonder what he thinks of Valerie's revelation that DC editorial dictated a rape to boost sales though?

[stealthwise]

You know, I liked Identity Crisis at the time and still liked parts even when I could see the flaws in it (haven't reread in years so this could have changed). I still wouldn't praise it as wonderful, and I'm nowhere near as good as Joss.

I wonder what he thinks of Valerie's revelation that DC editorial dictated a rape to boost sales though?

And I think that's the thing... creative types often make as poor critics as critics would make writers/artists/directors/producers.

Just because someone can write or draw their ass off doesn't necessarily mean that they have good taste, or that they can even recognize WHY it is that their own work is so well-received.

Take a look at the guy who created the Sopranos, the season one dvd has commentary and interviews with him, and he's obviously clueless.

[scout1279]

I have no idea.

I do know I lost a ton of respect for Joss Whedon's judgment when he did the intro for "Identity Crisis," and praised it to the skies.

Well, until the end, which was just crap, I thought it was really great stuff, interesting and unlike anything I had read, especially from DC. That was until I read Valerie D'Orazio's "Goodbye to Comics." But for non-DC readers, like I was and Joss Whedon is, a lot of the stuff that people have complaints about with "Identity Crisis" is stuff that others have no clue about when they read it. for example, I had no idea that Sue Dibney's rape was a retcon. For all I knew, all that stuff actually happened in previous comics and "Identity Crisis" was the pay off on several long running plot points.

[Corrina]

I don't know. Characters aside, IC lost me within a few pages by telegraphing with a neon sign that Sue would die in just a minute and then added to the eye rolling with the whole pregnancy thing. It's the type of thing parodied by "Dead Meat" in the Zucker movies. And that doesn't count on my knowing the characters or the background, just my knowing bad writing when I see it.

It's really obvious, cliched writing and, after that, I couldn't take one thing in that book seriously. And the resolution to the mystery was just plain awful.

Anywho, sorry. You got the knee-jerk IC rant there. :) But I don't trust Whedon since then and I've been avoiding Dr. Horrible because of it.

[Charles RB]

I wouldn't have thought Dr Horrible was much like Identity Crisis.

(God, what sort of songs would you get in a musical Identity Crisis?)

[The Beast Of Yucca Flats]

I wouldn't have thought Dr Horrible was much like Identity Crisis.

(God, what sort of songs would you get in a musical Identity Crisis?)

Oh dear; now you've put the idea out there. I hope you're happy.

[Michael P]

Actually, for years I've had the idea of taking That Scene from Identity Crisis 2 and re-interpreting it as a Benny Hill sketch.

[Adam C]

I wonder what he thinks of Valerie's revelation that DC editorial dictated a rape to boost sales though?

Juh? So it just wasn't simple hackery, but tasteless marketing? Where did you discover this?

[The Ray]

If it helps, Millar has the weakest handshake ever.

His hands were tired from counting all his money.

[Charles RB]

Juh? So it just wasn't simple hackery, but tasteless marketing? Where did you discover this?

The assistant editor revealed it online, here (http://occasionalsuperheroine.blogspot.com/2006/11/goodbye-to-comics-7-we-need-rape-my.html). This was mentioned on the Wikipedia entry for Identity Crisis for a while but some bugger removed it.

(Someone also removed all the info on Pat Lee not paying people, because the creators saying they were not paid wasn't evidence enough...)