DC's Cosmic Hierarchy

[ShaunN]

Dear Friends,

Hi! This thread builds on the earlier one about cosmic characters making a comeback. I wonder if people can give me a rundown on DC's cosmic characters and their hierarchy/relationship to each other? I grew up reading Marvel comics, so I'm pretty familiar with the situation there, I think - the Watchers, the Celestials, Galactus, Eternity, the Living Tribunal, etc. - but I don't know much about the DCU.

We've touched on this a bit in an earlier thread, and I gather that the Spectre and whatever God he serves are pretty much at the top of the heap. I also take it that the Guardians of Oa are very powerful and that Oa is supposed to be at the centre of the universe. However, where do the New Gods fit and are there other god-level cosmic races like the Celestials or Watchers, or anything of that sort? In the JLA-Avengers crossover, the Scarlet Witch was inundated with wild Chaos magic when she entered the DCU - where do the Lords of Chaos and Order fit?

Thanks for any insights.

Sincerely,

Shaun

[JeffreyWKramer]

Dear Friends,

Hi! This thread builds on the earlier one about cosmic characters making a comeback. I wonder if people can give me a rundown on DC's cosmic characters and their hierarchy/relationship to each other? I grew up reading Marvel comics, so I'm pretty familiar with the situation there, I think - the Watchers, the Celestials, Galactus, Eternity, the Living Tribunal, etc. - but I don't know much about the DCU.

We've touched on this a bit in an earlier thread, and I gather that the Spectre and whatever God he serves are pretty much at the top of the heap. I also take it that the Guardians of Oa are very powerful and that Oa is supposed to be at the centre of the universe. However, where do the New Gods fit and are there other god-level cosmic races like the Celestials or Watchers, or anything of that sort? In the JLA-Avengers crossover, the Scarlet Witch was inundated with wild Chaos magic when she entered the DCU - where do the Lords of Chaos and Order fit?

Thanks for any insights.

Sincerely,

Shaun
It partially depends on what you consider the DCU. Dan DiDio frequently says these days that the Vertigo books aren't part of the DCU proper, but this entirely ignores the fact that many DCU characters have appeared in Vertigo books like SANDMAN. So, I'm going to include those Vertigo books with obvious connections to the DCU.

As far as we can tell, #1 right now in the DCU would be God. The Source from the Fourth World books may or may not be analogous to or an aspect of God (the depictions are unclear and inconsistent).

Next, per the words of Dream of the Endless, would be Lucifer Morningstar, described by Dream as "the most powerful being in Creation, save only his Creator." The Archangel Michael would have come either next or approximately equal to Lucifer, but the Vertigo manifestation of this being, at least, no longer exists.

Based on depictions in SANDMAN, WONDER WOMAN and various other comics, next would probably come the Endless, the most powerful of the gods and goddesses (Zeus, Odin, etc.) from the various pantheons represented in the DCU, the Lords of Order and Chaos, and possibly some of the more potent of the angelic beings. I rank these various entities roughly together due to primarily to depictions in SANDMAN, including the wonderful "Season of Mists" storlyine, in which the Lords of Order and Chaos, Odin and various other divine figures petitioned Dream for the key to Hell given him by Lucifer. If they were significantly more powerful than Dream, such entities might not have had to petition at all.

When at the peak of his power, the Spectre would rank right below that level, as would a lot of angels. As potent as he seems compared to most heroes, the exceptional Ostrander/Mandrake SPECTRE book demonstrated that he isn't even near the top of the angelic heirarchy. Note, however, that I'm not familiar enough with the current version of the Spectre to know exactly where he rates. The Spectre's more potent supernatural enemies would also fall at or near this rank.

Next would come the likes of the wizard Shazam (or would have - isn't he currently gone from the DCU or in between incarnations or some such nonsense), the Guardians of Oa, Darksied, the Phantom Stranger and so forth. Possibly Metron as well.

After that would be the midlevel rabble among the demonic and angelic entities (including familiar ones such as Zauriel), who have been depicted as pretty powerful but not so mighty that they can't be successfully fought by the most powerful of the mortal heroes, such as Superman, Wonder Woman, etc. The classic Alec Holland SWAMP THING, circa the end of the Moore run at least, would also fall more or less at this level, as would the more powerful of the Fourth World characters not already listed.

Now, how - or in what form/manifestation - the New Gods characters will come out after the DEATH OF THE NEW GODS stuff, who knows? I haven't been following that crap.

[ShaunN]

Dear Jeffrey,

Thanks! I never would have thought that the Spectre would rank below gods like Zeus or the Endless. Also, haven't the Gods of Olympus been kicked around on a pretty regular basis by Darkseid and his people?

Years ago, there was a Swamp Thing storyline where all of the elementals of Earth were being destroyed by a being called "The Word" (I think), who was supposedly God's assassin. The various elemental beings were giving their power to ST, who had become a god-like being himself and who had lost his humanity. The Word looked exactly like the Spectre, except he dressed in red.

I never knew how the story ended - the last part I got had John Constantine transforming ST into Alec Holland (using some kind of wishing matches) just as the Word arrived to destroy him. One day, I'll track down the conclusion to this.

Does anyone else have a take on how this breaks down?

Sincerely,

Shaun

[JeffreyWKramer]

Also, haven't the Gods of Olympus been kicked around on a pretty regular basis by Darkseid and his people?
As I recall, the Olympian gods have mostly avoided direct conflict with Darksied. There was the one story in which Darkseid invaded Olympus, but the gods just left and when Darkseid attempted to destroy it, the place wasn't damaged at all, being so eternal as to be immune to his efforts.

Years ago, there was a Swamp Thing storyline where all of the elementals of Earth were being destroyed by a being called "The Word" (I think), who was supposedly God's assassin. The various elemental beings were giving their power to ST, who had become a god-like being himself and who had lost his humanity. The Word looked exactly like the Spectre, except he dressed in red.
Yeah, I wasn't reading the book then, so I have no idea what happened with that.

[K-DoG7p7]

As I recall, the Olympian gods have mostly avoided direct conflict with Darksied. There was the one story in which Darkseid invaded Olympus, but the gods just left and when Darkseid attempted to destroy it, the place wasn't damaged at all, being so eternal as to be immune to his efforts.

you are forgetting that Granny kidnapped the gods and posed as Athena..

[JeffreyWKramer]

you are forgetting that Granny kidnapped the gods and posed as Athena..

That must be recent stuff. I haven't been following any mainstream DCU books other than BATMAN, DETECTIVE and WONDER WOMAN for awhile now, so I didn't see it.

It sounds stupid, frankly, and inconsistent with previous depictions. If Granny Goodness is that mighty, then the Apokolips storyline in Ostrander's SUICIDE SQUAD makes no sense whatsoever, and given that Ostrander's SS is vastly better than most of what DC is putting out these days, I prefer to view this latest development as just more evidence how bad a lot of the DC books are, and as further support for my decision to mostly avoid DCU books these days.

[K-DoG7p7]

That must be recent stuff. I haven't been following any mainstream DCU books other than BATMAN, DETECTIVE and WONDER WOMAN for awhile now, so I didn't see it.

It sounds stupid, frankly, and inconsistent with previous depictions. If Granny Goodness is that mighty, then the Apokolips storyline in Ostrander's SUICIDE SQUAD makes no sense whatsoever, and given that Ostrander's SS is vastly better than most of what DC is putting out these days, I prefer to view this latest development as just more evidence how bad a lot of the DC books are, and as further support for my decision to mostly avoid DCU books these days.

It happened in Wonder Woman :p
(well.. actually Amazons Attack.. but still)
it was also part of the first arc of GA/BC.. and a large part of Countdown..
But dont worry.. Mary Marvel let the gods loose and they gave her back her powers :P

And yes... its IDIOTIC..
and its really confusing about the gods.. because in Trails of Shazam its ben established that there are 2 sets of greek gods..

[JeffreyWKramer]

It happened in Wonder Woman :p
(well.. actually Amazons Attack.. but still)
I read the first two issues of Heinberg's WW, then dropped the book until recently, when Gail started writing it. What little I've seen and heard of AMAZONS ATTACK suggests it's possibly the worst crossover comic ever.

it was also part of the first arc of GA/BC..
Given the poor quality of past stuff of his I've seen, I would probably not read a Winick DCU book if someone gave it to me for free.
and a large part of Countdown..
I haven't followed COUNTDOWN, and nothing I've heard about it suggests I'm missing a thing.

But dont worry.. Mary Marvel let the gods loose and they gave her back her powers :P
I suppose that's good, but other than Jeff Smith's mini, I haven't liked anything they've done with the Marvel Family in a long, long time.

And yes... its IDIOTIC..
and its really confusing about the gods.. because in Trails of Shazam its ben established that there are 2 sets of greek gods..
Since Winick writes that, I'd be rather surprised if it makes a bit of sense.

[ShaunN]

Two sets of Greek Gods? Ok, now I'm really confused.

I remember the initial invasion of Olympus by Darkseid - as I recall, it happened as part of the "first" meeting between Superman and Diana and it involved both of them going to Olympus to fight Darkseid. The gods were absent when Darkseid attacked, holding a council of their own, so there was no confrontation between Darkseid and them.

However, I recently re-read my Perez WW, and I must say that Darkseid's attack was not shrugged off by Olympus - in fact, it so corrupted Olympus that the Olympians could not repair it. Instead, they destroyed the whole place so that they could embark on their "cosmic migration." But Darkseid's influence was pervasive.

I've only been reading "Countdown" sporadically, but I did get "Amazons Attack" and I have to say that I don't know what's going on anymore. At the end of AA, I was left with the impression that Granny was impersonating Athena and that everything that was done to the Amazons was her doing. I don't know how this plays into recent events in WW. Also, a recent Countdown that I picked up had Granny (as Athena) training young women to be Amazons on Themyscira. Granny ran when Hippolyta showed up and tried to run her through with a sword. Needless to say, I'm totally confused by how all of this fits together, let alone why someone capable of taking down Athena and the whole Greek pantheon would run from one woman (albeit a very formidable woman) with a sword!

It's never seemed to me that the New Gods were very godly and their relationship with the Greek Gods seems confused. Darkseid claims that the GG are offshoots of the New Gods, but the GG (and this was established in WW) claim the opposite. Has this ever been resolved?

Thanks,

Shaun

[Chiroptera]

One thing I've learned over the years when it comes to the DCU's gods.

There is no set tier.

There never is. One group will be more powerful than another in one story, and then it'll be totally reversed in another. I try to just think of the gods as being as powerful as peoples faith in them is, it makes it alot easier to rationalize things when one god who previously was inferior to another is suddenly superior to them.


As for the Greek Gods and the New Gods... I don't think it was ever officially resolved, but as said... The whole Granny Goodness taking on the entire Greek PAntheon and winning is just... That may be one of THE most moronic things I've read involving her in a long time, and considering she's a villainess I really like when it comes to major threat villains I was disappointed and insulted by the way they used her for that storyline.
The whole thing devalued both her and the greek pantheon as well.

[K-DoG7p7]

Since Winick writes that, I'd be rather surprised if it makes a bit of sense.

it kinda does.. Kinda explains how Hercules can get his ass kicked by Superman.. but Captain marvel who is powered by him does not :p
there is the Gods of Magic and the regular once..
The Gods of Magic are the once that power the Marvel family and stuff, they live among us

[Pink Bat Maxine]

I don't think DC ever established a Cosmic Heirarchy. And I think that's a good thing. Why bog the world down with useless fannish details that add nothing to the stories overall?

[ShaunN]

Now that I think about it, I've got DC's first "Books of Magic" mini-series somewhere in my collection. If my memory serves, there is a bit where Constantine, or possibly the Phantom Stranger, is taking Tiim on a tour of the universe and the various godly beings/beings of power appear. I'll have to dig that up. One of the reasons I remember this is because there is a scene where Tim is shown God's most powerful angels, who are all floating in space in a circle, with their backs to each other and their arms folded over their chests. All of them are dressed in capes and hoods like the Spectre, and I remember recalling this when the Word first appeared.

I also seem to recall a Swamp Thing, where ST makes himself into a kind of biological supercomputer in order to resolve a complex problem that he is facing. During the course of his "Swamp Think" (as the cover calls it) he ends up running down the various powers of the DC universe. Again, I'll have to dig it up. Of course, whatever may have been canon way back then probably has been altered and revised a lot by now.

Thanks,

Shaun

[ShaunN]

Dear Pink Bat Maxine,

I would strongly (but respectfully) disagree. I think that it's about logic and coherence (and this extends far beyond the immediate question of a "cosmic hierarchy). If characters and events established in one story have no relevance or continuity in another, then the whole universe begins to fall apart. Perhaps I'm a bit behind the times, but one of the things that has always appealed to me about the comic universes is the idea that, combined, all titles tell one big continuous story about events occurring in different parts of the same universe. If the basic facts of that universe are never consistent, then that is both bad story-telling and incoherent.

In the case of the DCU, I just assume that something has been established in the way of a cosmic order, as in the Marvel U. Perhaps I am just incorrect about that. If so, my own tendency towards wanting a kind of internally consistent order would lead me to see this as a weakness of the DCU.

Sincerely,

Shaun

[JeffreyWKramer]

In the case of the DCU, I just assume that something has been established in the way of a cosmic order, as in the Marvel U. Perhaps I am just incorrect about that. If so, my own tendency towards wanting a kind of internally consistent order would lead me to see this as a weakness of the DCU.


Continuity and any sort of firm order to things have never been as much a concern with DC as it has Marvel. In fact, past efforts by DC to establish such things have fucked things up more than they established anything firm. They started with CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS and the books in the immediate aftermath of that, but within a few months, that official status quo was already morphing into something else, and a bunch of reboots and relaunches were done, some of them contradicting stories published only a few months before. By the time of ZERO HOUR, the Legion's and Hawkman's continuity were so hopelessly tangled as to render Hawkman essentially off limits for years, and the Legion was completely relaunched. Things continued like this for awhile, and while stuff like INFINITE CRISIS and 52 were supposed to straighten things out, I've not seen much sign that this is really the case. Case in point - once again - the Legion. Apparently, from what I've read in reviews and others' comments, there are at least two contradictory Legion continuities in play right now, i.e., the one that shows up in the regular LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES book (and apparently in SUPERGIRL?), and an approximation of the pre-CRISIS Legion continuity that has shown up in some of the Superman books, in JUSTICE LEAGUE and apparently in COUNTDOWN. There are also 52 different earths (or is it now 51? I seem to recall someone commenting that the stupid Superman-Prime character INFINITE CRISIS foisted upon us had destroyed one of them ni COUNTDOWN) making up a meta-continuity. Apparently there is a plan to all this, and it will be laid out in FINAL CRISIS and its aftermath, but there were also plans to what DC was going to be like after the original CRISIS, and after ZERO HOUR, and etc., and those went to hell soon enough. I'm sure Grant Morrison will come up with something good for FINAL CRISIS, but I'm also certain that lesser talents - creative and editorial - will in due time fuck that all up.

Personally, I think they should go back to the Hypertime concept, in which continuity is innately fluid, all the stories "happened" somewhere in a mix of timelines/multiverses, and what's official at the moment is a matter of current writer/editorial fiat. But then, I'm clearly out of tune with today's DC and what a majority of its current fans apparently want.

[CutterMike]

(...)
Next would come the likes of the wizard Shazam (or would have - isn't he currently gone from the DCU or in between incarnations or some such nonsense), the Guardians of Oa, Darksied, the Phantom Stranger and so forth. Possibly Metron as well.

After that would be the midlevel rabble among the demonic and angelic entities (including familiar ones such as Zauriel), who have been depicted as pretty powerful but not so mighty that they can't be successfully fought by the most powerful of the mortal heroes, such as Superman, Wonder Woman, etc. The classic Alec Holland SWAMP THING, circa the end of the Moore run at least, would also fall more or less at this level, as would the more powerful of the Fourth World characters not already listed.
(...)

You forgot Vext (God of Misfortune) who was cast to Earth when his pantheon was evicyed fromtheir home for not having enough adherents. (He COULD have picked where he wanted to go to but - being that he IS the God of Misfortune - he never got the memo.)

When he arrived on Earth in the first issue of his woefully too short series, he was visited by Superman and Zauriel, who warned him to, essentially, keep his nose clean because they'd be watching.

Presumably, since BOTH Supes and Z. came to give him The Talk, and since he WAS a deity - albeit minor and currently dispossessed, he must fall into, at least, the Shazam/Darkseid/Guardians category.

(I MISS Vext!)

[BnL]

Don't forget, The Olympians Clashed with the New Gods during the "War of the Gods" mini series at the end of Perez's run. Ares killed Highfather in the conflict.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Don't forget, The Olympians Clashed with the New Gods during the "War of the Gods" mini series at the end of Perez's run. Ares killed Highfather in the conflict.

I completely forgot that. I mostly try to forget WAR OF THE GODS existed, because prior to AMAZONS ATTACK, WotG was a strong contender for worst crossover miniseries event.

[BnL]

I completely forgot that. I mostly try to forget WAR OF THE GODS existed, because prior to AMAZONS ATTACK, WotG was a strong contender for worst crossover miniseries event.

Hehe, well I won't argue with that. I just felt that it was worth mentioning, as an example of power level comparisons between the Olympians and New Gods. Back then, it seems like the consensus was that they were equal, but after Amazons Attack, who knows.

As a matter of fact, since Infinite Crisis, it seems like there's been a concerted effort to de-power the Olympians, and it really makes me wonder. First we learn that DC has "moved on" from Greg's powerful take on the gods, and later we discover that the entire pantheon was taken down by Granny Goodness. Call me a cynic, but I have no trouble believing that at least part of the reasoning for this is because they want to "protect" Darkseid and his forces as being the DCU's top threat, and the development with Ares taking over control of the underworld was a threat to Darkseid's status. Darkseid has primarily become a Superman villain, often challenging other heroes, or the DCU as a whole as well. The potential for a Wonder Woman villain to obtain that same status probably made some folks a bit too squeamish.

[Charles RB]

Clearly some sort of "this guy is stronger than this other guy" hierarchy is needed because otherwise, annoying cock-ups like Granny Goodness beating an entire pantheon are inevitable.

How DID she manage that anyway? Surely she'd be outnumbered.

[Teh m0nk3y]

it kinda does.. Kinda explains how Hercules can get his ass kicked by Superman.. but Captain marvel who is powered by him does not :p
there is the Gods of Magic and the regular once..
The Gods of Magic are the once that power the Marvel family and stuff, they live among us

Justice Society of America Issue #13:
Hercules beat the crap out of regular Superman without a problem. Hercules on the other hand had problems making a dent to Kingdom Come Superman, who has a whole different power level.

[BnL]

Clearly some sort of "this guy is stronger than this other guy" hierarchy is needed because otherwise, annoying cock-ups like Granny Goodness beating an entire pantheon are inevitable.

How DID she manage that anyway? Surely she'd be outnumbered.

It's never been explained how she managed to do it. All we've seen, to my knowledge, is Granny gloating over the defeated Olympians.

[AllisterH]

Justice Society of America Issue #13:
Hercules beat the crap out of regular Superman without a problem. Hercules on the other hand had problems making a dent to Kingdom Come Superman, who has a whole different power level.

Not really. He sucker-punched the current Superman and then got stomped on by KC Supes. After current Supes recovered, he then dismantled Heracles pretty effectively.

Of course, this makes little sense given that KC Supes was being stalemated by the KC Captain Marvel even before KC Marvel busted out the Lightning trick in response to KC Supes heatvision.

Can I say once again, I despise Perez' Amazon history. The original Amazon mythology was good enough especially since in that version, the only one that looked bad was THESEUS and HERA.

re: WotG, AA
You know, if I was one of those conspiracy nuts, I would be thinking that DC purposely makes WW-centred megacrossovers SUCK so that people are turned off by WW.

WW's restart after Infinite Crisis should've had MAJOR heat since everyone was talking about her killing of Max Lord (can I say once again, I despise this retcon of Max purposely trying to make the JLI look bad?) and WW should be doing THOR-level numbers.

re: Granny Goodness
That is a headshaking exercise there. How does GG, who has been beaten up one on one by Big Barda and RAN when faced down by Hippolyta beat the entire DC Greek pantheon.

There had to been a McGuffin somewhere....

[BnL]

re: WotG, AA
You know, if I was one of those conspiracy nuts, I would be thinking that DC purposely makes WW-centred megacrossovers SUCK so that people are turned off by WW.

No, I don't think DC wants Wonder Woman to fail, but I DO think that they want to force her to succeed only while confined to a very small box that doesn't risk her eclipsing Superman or Batman in certain ways (strength and skill levels, villain power levels, etc). I have heard stories from many creators who have worked on the book about how editorial has been very strict about what they can and can't do with the character, possibly more than any other character in comics. While that COULD be a good thing, I tend to think that in practice, this heavy handedness has been used to hold the character back in a lot of ways. Gail has said that they're pretty much letting her do her own thing on the title, so maybe they've finally wised up. I hope so. But I've heard writers as recent as Rucka talking about editorial dashing certain plans they had to further the character, so it seems like a very recent reversal.

[ShaunN]

Without returning to the "how strong is WW?" question, I hope that Diana is finally given the respect that she deserves. That should mean Superman-level power. I have already said how much I loved Perez's run on the series, so I won't get into that again!

RE: the cosmic power question: it occurs to me that my main reasons for thinking that the Spectre is near the top of whatever DC hierarchy exists are two:

1) it is the Spectre who takes on the Anti-Monitor, one on one, in Crisis #10. I figure that someone capable of holding his own against a being who has already destroyed numerous universes and is trying to set himself up as God must be incredibly formidable. After all, presumably, the Anti-Monitor was destroying numerous gods and other powerful beings as he rampaged across the multi-verse.

2) Again, in Swamp Thing (you can tell where I get most of my DC magical knowledge), the Spectre takes on the Great Darkness. Of course, he is (literally) crushed by it, but the Darkness is a being who ends up combining with and balancing God, the ultimate power in the DCU. And the Spectre was the only force able to grow large enough to actually gain a perspective on what the Darkness actually was.

Where does the demon Trigon fit in all this? Way back in my ancient "Teen Titans" (Perez and Wolfman), Trigon did some pretty impressive stuff.

Sincerely,

Shaun

[JeffreyWKramer]

Where does the demon Trigon fit in all this? Way back in my ancient "Teen Titans" (Perez and Wolfman), Trigon did some pretty impressive stuff.


Trigon's a very powerful demonic entity, probably roughly equal to a lesser divine being. From the human point of view, that's still pretty awesomely powerful, but not so much so compared to some of the other forces at work in the larger DCU cosmology.