Fans and comic characters deaths.

[Chiroptera]

Okay, I was perusing the Batman forum and one of the threads led me to wonder. What is it with people and wanting character deaths, particularly big name characters. I can understand peoples desire for change, but why does the majority of the fan base seem to think the only way things can change is if you KILL a character to do it?

After decades of character deaths the one thing we've learned is that it's only permanent if the character's fan base is small. This even extends to characters like Psylocke and Green Arrow, popular but certainly not the tops in terms of popularity, but their fan base was enough that the writers realized they couldn't keep these characters permanently dead. When you consider that THOSE characters come back, how is it that someone can then look at a big namer like Superman, Batman, Spider-man, etc, and think it will actually be a permanent death?

Look at Captain America right now. The latest issue has him on the cover confronting the new Cap. This is marketing at it's finest. They know that a LOT of the readers are reading the comic, hoping and expecting that eventually the real Cap is going to come back.
They know if they get rid of that possibility it's going to make them lose a big chunk of their readership, so they keep taunting their readership with the idea that cap could return. They do all they can to hang onto those folks that are reading it simply waiting for Cap's return.

The modern comic writers seem to have learned that a character death isn't something to be treated lightly, and the industry as a whole has learned that it's nearly impossible to kill off a major character without having an idea in mind for how to bring them back. In comics a major characters death is about as permanent as an ice cubes solidity.

So my question to the more sane and reasonable folks who hang out here on YABS is: Where did fans get this obsession with killing off characters, and why has it become so prevalent?

[Stressfactor]

Sometimes I think it is that whole "blaze of glory" thing. A "hero" needs to go out young and heroically to a lot of fans (and I think writers as well) minds.

A little swerve but... I've seen this same thing among "Doctor Who" fandom when it comes to the character of the Brigadier. There seem to be so many of them who want to drag the old guy out of retirement JUST so he can have some "glorious", heroic end.

I don't get it either... I really don't. Why can't heroes "retire"? Why can't they get married and have kids and get old and then eventually pass away quietly in their sleep?

A lot of people love "Batman Beyond" and what do you have there but an old, retired Bruce Wayne?

I suppose some think that if you kill a character off you might not be able to make death permanent but at least you can make the writers work harder to come up with a way to bring them back from the dead and thus potentially slow down the return of a character they don't like.

[Cayman]

So my question to the more sane and reasonable folks who hang out here on YABS is: Where did fans get this obsession with killing off characters, and why has it become so prevalent?

I would say it's more a tactic by creators and editorial than any obsession on the part of fans. I think most superhero comic fans feel the characters are supposed to endure and outlast us.

[Charles RB]

So my question to the more sane and reasonable folks who hang out here on YABS is: Where did fans get this obsession with killing off characters, and why has it become so prevalent?

You said it yourself: any character who dies will come back. So no wonder the "kill 'em!" view has become prevalent - it won't stick anyway and maybe there'll be a cool fight scene and some drama and if you don't like the character they go away for a bit. So why not kill them? It's not like it matters anymore beyond "ooo, cool punch!".

And that's why the constant return of characters in American corporate superhero comics is fucking retarded. Way to neuter an entire type of story, guys.

If dead actually meant dead and editors knew if they let a character get bumped off they could never be used again, maybe it'd happen less.

[Kevinroc]

It's shock value mentality. It's an especially odd time in between a character's death and before their return.

Let's look at a currently deceased comic book character as an example. Bart Allen. And I'll compare that to Captain America...

Bart wasn't the most popular DC character but he certainly has a decent fanbase. Sure, the DCU can exist without him just fine (and I am a fan of Bart's) but the problem comes with what happened next. I dropped Flash immediately after Bart's death and have seen no reason to pick up Wally's book (which looks like it has shifted to a poor man's Fantastic Four). Teen Titans has become unreadable (and probably DC's worst ongoing monthly super hero book). And the less said about Countdown, the better.

Has Bart's death resulted in better comics? I certainly do not think so.

On the flip side, has Captain America's death resulted in better comics? I'm probably more interested in Cap than ever before.

Do I think both Bart Allen and Steve Rogers will return? Yes. The difference is that with Cap, I'm certainly willing to go along with whatever Brubaker has planned. With Bart, the sooner he comes back, the better.

[Black Atom]

So my question to the more sane and reasonable folks who hang out here on YABS is: Where did fans get this obsession with killing off characters, and why has it become so prevalent?

I don't know that there is such an obsession. Can you call up a specific instance?

It generates lots of buzz when characters die, so I can understand the appeal from a marketing perspective. And naturally, that buzz will, at least temporarily, draw readers, but I haven't really perceived any movement from fans to see more deaths in comics.

[Chiroptera]

I don't know that there is such an obsession. Can you call up a specific instance?

It generates lots of buzz when characters die, so I can understand the appeal from a marketing perspective. And naturally, that buzz will, at least temporarily, draw readers, but I haven't really perceived any movement from fans to see more deaths in comics.


First example: Batman.

As Stressfactor already said, people LOVE the way the story went in Batman Beyond and yet everyone seems so excited by the idea of his dying in Final Crisis.

Recently I had a talk with some other comics friends of mine, the discussion of Tony Stark's character in modern marvel comics they all agreed the best way to redeem him was to kill him. As I asked here, I asked them WHY killing him was the best way. Out of all 5 of them NONE of them could explain to me why they thought killing him would be better than any other method of redeeming him; and two of these guys LOVE modern Tony so it's not like they all just want him to die because he's such a dick.


A lot of fans of Donna succeeding Diana as Wonder Woman propose the way to do this would be to have Diana die. Rarely have I found someone who can explain to me WHY she needs to die instead of retiring.



I suppose there's also another thing to consider. It's always the big names people feel should be killed off. The ones you KNOW won't stay dead because it just doesn't make any sense to permanently kill off a popular character. This leaves me wondering "Then WHY do you want to kill them off in the first place?!"

Seriously, if you know they're gonna come back anyway doesn't it sort of cheapen the entire story? I know the Flash is dead! .... Ah well, he'll be back in 3 months.

What's the point?

[Corrina]

I think Brubaker hit it just right when he first killed the Red Skull.

Everyone knows that the Skull is not going to stay dead forever. So Brubaker took that knowledge and ran with it. The question became not "Is the Skull really dead" but "how does the Skull's death tie into the whole thing?"

And, eventually, yes, the Skull comes back but in a completely different and more interesting fashion than before. As fans, we knew it was coming. But we didn't quite *know* what was coming, if that makes sense.

He's set up quite a problem for himself with Cap, though. Brubaker knows that we know that Steve Rogers will eventually return. He's done a great job of taking a 'world without Captain America' and running with it and making it interesting and it looks like the next year will be how Steve comes back. I hope it's as well-done and interesting as the Skull's return. I wouldn't put it past Brubaker to really do something tragic and yet hopeful, like having Bucky sacrifice his consciousness so that Steve Rogers can have it, assuming the Cosmic Cube comes into play somehow. I expect it will, somehow.

I'll be disappointed if it's a "Steve out of time" or a clone thing. I'm hoping Brubaker can pull it off.

And I don't think Brubaker intended Steve to ever stay dead. I'm hoping a good writer like Brubaker would want to be the one to finish the "Death of Captain America" story himself rather than let someone else do it later--and neatly tie up his stories in the process.

ETA: Now, Owen Randall....damn. He just might really be dead. :(

[DungeonmasterJim]

I'm never really big on any major character death because they do return. It hampers almost ever story I read these days where some one dies. Now combine that with late books and I'm getting to know the pay-off of the book before it ever appears. This is happening right now at Marvel with a certain mutant. Late book, spoilers from another book and a major characer's death means almost nothing to me at this point. Well, it doesn't help that I've found the whole story mediocre and over-hyped to begi with...

So I'm not a fan demanding deaths of major characters. I always kind of saw it as a writer thing. I find it especially so with a number of 'guest' or short term writers that hop onto a series, produce a supposed great story, and leave making the next poor bastard pick up the pieces. And that usually results in a less than wonderful story for the returning character. You know, "it's magic' or something like that.

DM Jim

[ShaunN]

It could be nostalgia talking here but, IMHO, the most affecting character death was that of Phoenix, the first time around in X-Men #137. I expected it, but it was still affecting and noble and beautifully done. When Jean was brought back (in the Avengers then X-Men, I think, and then eventually made part of X-Factor) the entire experience was cheapened. Of course, bringing back a character named "Phoenix" was a no-brainer, but it could have been done better, if it had to be done at all. I hope that her most recent death stays (this was the one caused by the Magneto clone/Xorn, where he gave her a cosmic heart attack), but she may be back already, for all that I know. (Indeed, I think that the future X-Men story that followed was about her rebirth 150 years in the future).

I think that there should be a moratorium on the deaths of any major characters. If it can't stick, then it is pointless. Indeed, it's almost amazing that characters in the Marvel/DC universe take death seriously at all - they should simply be waiting around for whomever they last buried to make another appearance.

I do think that one of the better deaths in the Marvel Universe was when Dr. Strange destroyed Dracula and, along with him, every vampire on this plane of reality (or at least on Earth). It took more than a decade, I think, before they brought Dracula back.

Sincerely,

Shaun