WTF?!?! Buffy #12 [SPOILERS}

[diana_fan]

Umm ... WHAT?!

No, just no. I get the idea of experimenting and everything. I do. But NO! Dammit, this make me mad. i have absolutely nothing against lesbians or bi-sexuals or gay men. But this pisses me the hell off.

Buffy would NEVER do that! NEVER! She's never really showed interest in women. And suddenly she is fucking a woman?! How the HELL did that happen?

Ugh.

[Jack Zodiac]

How the HELL did that happen?

My birthday wish came true! :D It only took... eight years!

[Johnny_Luck]

Have you been reading the series at all? Have you watched Buffy and more importantly the way she acts from season 6-on

This is exactly like something she would do. Feeling alone in the world and taking advantage of the people around her in attempt to try and make herself feel better about the way things are. As great a hero Buffy is she uses and abuses the people around her when she feels the need to.

[Evan Waters]

You would just despise TORCHWOOD, I can tell.

[diana_fan]

Have you been reading the series at all? Have you watched Buffy and more importantly the way she acts from season 6-on

I hate S6+, but that is beyond the point.

This is exactly like something she would do. Feeling alone in the world and taking advantage of the people around her in attempt to try and make herself feel better about the way things are. As great a hero Buffy is she uses and abuses the people around her when she feels the need to.

Are you kidding me?!

No way. No fucking way.,

[Johnny_Luck]

I hate S6+, but that is beyond the point.



Are you kidding me?!

No way. No fucking way.,

Um yes way, just watch the show.

and Season 6 and Season 7(more so season 7) made up for how horrid season 4 and 5 were. Season 6 was a pretty good season after two horrid ones and season 7 redeemed Buffy as a show after they tried to end it at the horrible season 5 stuff.

[Linkara]

Umm ... WHAT?!

No, just no. I get the idea of experimenting and everything. I do. But NO! Dammit, this make me mad. i have absolutely nothing against lesbians or bi-sexuals or gay men. But this pisses me the hell off.

Buffy would NEVER do that! NEVER! She's never really showed interest in women. And suddenly she is fucking a woman?! How the HELL did that happen?

Ugh.

Whedon explains it here:

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=149216

He states she isn't gay.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Isn´t season 8 being written by Joss?
If there´s anyone who knows Buffy, it´s him.

Although I´,m pretty sure there were a few times in the tv series when she acted with some disgust at the thought of doing it with another woman...

Meh.
this will just help further the belief most guys already have that any woman is 2 mugs of beer away from a lesbian episode....

[diana_fan]

Whedon explains it here:

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=149216

He states she isn't gay.

Yes, she just FUCKED A WOMAN!

Good for her. She experimented. I'm happy for her.


Now explain to me how Buffy screwing a woman is not out of character?!

[Jack Zodiac]

Well, there's the fact that Joss Whedon created the character, dictated this, and wrote a lesbian sexual experience for his character, thus making it in-character.

[Johnny_Luck]

Yes, she just FUCKED A WOMAN!

Good for her. She experimented. I'm happy for her.


Now explain to me how Buffy screwing a woman is not out of character?!

I did and he did in the interview as well.

Re-read the earlier issues of Season 8 and look back at how she treated the people around her in her depressed times(if you want to ignore how she acted in season 6 and 7 it doesn't matter she was still written that way, your dislike for it there doesn't mean it was out of character and it help support whats happening here, because she was in character then and she is now) also if you want to pretend all the season 6 and somewhat season 7 stuff didn't happen just look at season 2, its opening episode alone is a great example or even some of the later episodes, she slept with angel not just because she cared for him but because of the whole situation that was happening around her, being upset and depressed. (Leaving her friends to fend at the end of season 2 was another great example, leaving them to protect sunnydale on their own), etc.

Plus Her age its not like thats completely uncommon to try different things out, now if it happened over and over and over again I would say it was way out of character, but your faulting her for trying something once. Thats kinda silly.

[BnL]

It's definitely in character for Buffy to have sex with someone she doesn't really feel an emotional attachment to, and who she knows has feelings for, out of her own selfishness. Whether or not it's in character for that someone to be a woman is debatable. Personally, that detail in and of itself doesn't bother me. Hell, maybe she just laid there and accepted pleasure from the girl without returning the favor. It wouldn't be the first time that's happened.

The thing about this that bothers me though, is that number one, it seemed like it was probably done as a cheap stunt. And number two, it's been several years, and the writers STILL won't have Andrew come out of the damn closet. In fact, they've added in stuff that make his homosexuality deniable to those who would object. Not only that, but Lorne, one of the gayest characters to ever be on my television screen, was written to be attracted to women. That's at least twice that male homosexuality has been teased or dodged with no pay off by Whedon and co., while female homosexuality has been portrayed openly.

[Johnny_Luck]

I am sorry but I disagree with you BnL, not the buffy Part, or the Andrew part, but the Lorne part.

Just because he wore suits, and sang and did the celeb thing does not make him Gay. Andrew clearly had moments where it was obvious, However I never once in all seasons of Angel saw something that I could take as even a Hint that Lorne was gay. Flamboyant maybe but not gay.

[BnL]

Flamboyant maybe but not gay.

That's the problem. It's like they wanted all the "fun and flamboyance" of a stereotypical gay male character on the show, without having to MAKE him functionally gay. It's a cop out. And I've seen similar situations on other shows and in movies. It's extremely irritating.

[diana_fan]

She slept with a woman?!

Buffy.


It's fine. But she's Buffy! How is that all-right?!

[Johnny_Luck]

Then again I think its just as stereotypical that people think you have to be gay in order to be the way that Lorne was and I don't think that is the case.

[Johnny_Luck]

She slept with a woman?!

Buffy.


It's fine. But she's Buffy! How is that all-right?!

Go to bed and ignore the issue, I mean it looks like you can ignore the explanations that tell you why it is and why its in character easy enough even if they are explained to you by multiple people, so why not just continue with your ignoring people but instead of people just ignore the issue.

Other than shes at the age where experiments are known to happen and it fits with the way she deals with situations, it seems like no matter what explanation you get you won't be happy with it. God could come from the heavens and tell you why it fits and that everything is okay and you probably still ask the same question hoping to get an answer that aligns with what you want rather then the truth which is what you are getting.

I mean I even gave you plenty of examples in her history to look upon. If you ask the same question 3 times and get the same answer 3 times then it doesn't mean the answer will change in time number 4. It means that the answer and thats the way it is, you obviously don't like it, that's okay, but that doesn't mean it doesn't fit with how Buffy is and how Buffy Uses people.

You can ask the same question over and over hoping someone other than myself, Joss Himself and the others in this thread will come along and give you another answer I really don't think its going to happen and the possibility of annoying people is there, just to let you know.

[BnL]

Then again I think its just as stereotypical that people think you have to be gay in order to be the way that Lorne was and I don't think that is the case.

The man routinely referrs to Angel with cute little pet names like "sweetie" or "honey." He sings showtunes. He wears lipstick, and just generally looks flamboyant and effeminate. He has effeminate vocal inflections. That's just the stuff I can think of off the top of my head. Separately, these things wouldn't amount to much. But instead, they combined all these traits into one character. The guy was written as a stereotypical gay man. I saw him on screen for the first time and thought, hmm, that's interesting, a friendly gay demon. I was sure it was just a matter of time before they had him admit his feelings for Angel, after seeing him flirt with him constantly for so long. Then they had him acting like he liked pussy.

Fuck that.

It was a total cop out.

[Ian Boothby]

The man routinely referrs to Angel with cute little pet names like "sweetie" or "honey." He sings showtunes. He wears lipstick, and just generally looks flamboyant and effeminate. He has effeminate vocal inflections. That's just the stuff I can think of off the top of my head. Separately, these things wouldn't amount to much. But instead, they combined all these traits into one character. The guy was written as a stereotypical gay man. I saw him on screen for the first time and thought, hmm, that's interesting, a friendly gay demon. I was sure it was just a matter of time before they had him admit his feelings for Angel, after seeing him flirt with him constantly for so long. Then they had him acting like he liked pussy.

Fuck that.

It was a total cop out.


He's a demon who's head can be removed and put back on. Normal rules don't apply.

[BnL]

He's a demon who's head can be removed and put back on. Normal rules don't apply.

He's a character written by people who live in the REAL world, in which normal rules DO apply, and they knew exactly what they were doing when they created Lorne. It's a lame excuse to say that he's not written as a gay male stereotype just because he's a demon. The writers don't live in that fictional world, they live in THIS world, where giving a character those character traits means something.

The same excuse is used for a character like Roger from American Dad. Sure, he's a exact caricature of Paul Lynde's persona, but you see, he's an ALIEN. So normal rules don't APPLY. See, we just want the fun energy that a flamboyantly gay personality would add to the show, without actually having to commit to making him gay.

It's exploitative, and it's a cop out. No amount of trying to explain it away will change the fact that characters like these are KNOWINGLY created with flamboyant gay male personalities by the creators. Because that's entertaining and FUN. But that's the only aspect they're interested in exploiting, so they portray them as being attracted to women. It's bullshit.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Strange, Lorne never struck me as being gay either.
He was a bit sophisticated and charming and all that stuff but I just attributed it to his supernatural nature.

It´s like that singing demon in the musical episode of Buffy. He too shared a lot of traits with Lorne but you had no doubt about his sexual inclination.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Gah! Forum´s acting up!

Lesbian Buffy must have messed with its cogs.

[Johnny_Luck]

Strange, Lorne never struck me as being gay either.
He was a bit sophisticated and charming and all that stuff but I just attributed it to his supernatural nature.

It´s like that singing demon in the musical episode of Buffy. He too shared a lot of traits with Lorne but you had no doubt about his sexual inclination.

Yeah I don't think giving people pet names makes you gay as then there probably be a hell of a lot more lesbians out there then we have, nor does singing music and sharing your feelings make you gay either.

The lip-stick thing fit his demon personaility though so yeah that is a valid excuse.

I sorry but everything combined still doesn't add up to closet gay to me.

and the Alien from AD is clearly a closet gay his voice and his behavior say so, its not even remotely close to how Lorne was written or acted though.

[Yoda]

Two of the four people she's slept with technically are dead and reanimated by demons... But you have a problem with a girl?

Her actions are in character. I'd try to explain it, but read Joss's interviews, and also go to the independent forum and read JeffreyWKramer's posts. He explains it very clearly there also. And she's not gay. She just was lonely and Satsu was available and in love with her. It's not that different than the situation with Spike.

Plus, that issue was excellent! I was dying when Xander and Andrew walked in. "My Eye! My Beautiful Burning Eye!"

[Alan Lynch]

I haven't read the issue, but I certainly don't see it as being out of character. I mean Buffy's always been kind of an idiot when it comes to sex. I can absolutely see her experimenting like this just because she's on a bit of a downer - much more out of character, for me, would be jumping on someone like Xander.

[Gilda Dent]

Wait a minute . . . I'm only about a third of the way through Angel season 2, but dear lord, if Lorne is the demon who runs the nightclub, writing him as being straight is really, really ignoring what was going on in those early episodes. He's openly flirting with Angel every time they show them together. He isn't just written as gay, he's such a flamer he'd have to avoid dry brush in the summertime out of risk of starting brush fires.

Not having read the issue in question (I'm waiting for the trade) I can't comment on the execution, but Buffy turning to someone convenient for sex to push away the loneliness is exactly in character for her. This is a woman who had sex with a soulless monster because he was convenient, using him like an animal and then throwing him away when she was no longer interested.

A human woman would be perfectly in line with the way her character was developed in the TV show, and a hell of a lot more appropriate than pre-soul Spike.

[ForeverTaskmaster]

So what's next ? Buffy doing Faith ?

[BnL]

Wait a minute . . . I'm only about a third of the way through Angel season 2, but dear lord, if Lorne is the demon who runs the nightclub, writing him as being straight is really, really ignoring what was going on in those early episodes. He's openly flirting with Angel every time they show them together. He isn't just written as gay, he's such a flamer he'd have to avoid dry brush in the summertime out of risk of starting brush fires.

LOL! Yep, he's the one I'm referring to.

[Corrina]

Well, there's the fact that Joss Whedon created the character, dictated this, and wrote a lesbian sexual experience for his character, thus making it in-character.

That doesn't mean it's not bad writing, though.

I've been reading Season 8 and I think there's a lot of bad writing in there to go around, not just on this issue. I think he's retreading a lot of the same ground from Season 6, especially with Dawn, I think Xander's new 'job' makes little sense, and I think this particular element wasn't set up emotionally that well.

*And I did think most of the personal decisions in Season 6 worked on Buffy's part--though I didn't really buy Willow's whole "I'm an addict" thing.

Now, I have no personal experience in this manner but, given all past information, Buffy just doesn't view women in a sexual manner. If you're going to have a fictional character make a decision like this, then I think you have to set it up better than "Buffy is using someone because she's having a tough time." Because there are so many other ways to impose upon this girl's love for her and make bad decisions without somehow flipping a switch in Buffy's head and thinking "oh, hey, girls are good now."

But, as I said, I have a ton of problems with Season 8 anyway. This is just one example of a WTF in these issues. It feels off to me, character-wise and plot-wise and just because Whedon is the creator doesn't mean he's not capable of bad writing.

See: Laurell K. Hamilton. (Though, no, it's not even CLOSE to that bad.)

[AllisterH]

Two of the four people she's slept with technically are dead and reanimated by demons... But you have a problem with a girl?



I was under the impression Buffy had slept with six people including this new girl?

Angel, Parker, Riley, Spike, The Immortal and now this female Slayer.

[BnL]

I was under the impression Buffy had slept with six people including this new girl?

Angel, Parker, Riley, Spike, The Immortal and now this female Slayer.

I think the situation with the Immortal was revealed to be a ruse the scoobies used to throw off their enemies, and they even used a decoy Buffy for the operation.

[diana_fan]

I don't care what Whedon says.

I've dropped the book. I dropped the show when it got ugly in S6-S7, and this book is no better, honestly.

If this is their idea of Buffy, then I am OBVIOUSLY out of the loop.

[saintsaucey]

Wow I'm sorry you are so close minded about this/ I personally don't see it as bad writing or out of character. It's like people have been saying. Buffy is one of the most selfish characters in the history of television/ Stick her along side Luke from episode four and Anakin from the episode two and three and you have a trifecta of selfishness.

I can't believe the people who say this series has bad writing. I've been hooked since the second issue. Season three through seven of Buffy equal great television.

[Alan Lynch]

For the most part I hated every season of Buffy after the third, and I'm loving the comic so far. I'm still a bit fuzzy on the whole arc, and I think the idea of all those Slayers remains awful but it's been a lot of fun for me. Worryingly though it's the standalone issues that have stood out so far - which was much the same problem I had with all those other seasons they served up on TV. But I'll be sticking around for as long as the really good outweighs the "meh".

[Typo Lad]

I don't care what Whedon says.
If this is their idea of Buffy, then I am OBVIOUSLY out of the loop.

You're well off then, as he's the originator of the character. If you can't agree with the creator's view, it's time to ship off.

Which I've done more than once.

[diana_fan]

I'm closed minded?!

No.

[Typo Lad]

No offence Diana, but you are being close-minded in a sense. Not in the sense that you are a bigot, but in the sense that you havbe a very strong vision of the character in your head and you're going to leave if you feel the book does not reflect that vision.

Personally? Not seeing that as a bad thing. I've left multiple comics because I felt the creators weren't being "true" to how I saw the character.

[Alan Lynch]

I'm closed minded?!

No.
For better or worse, when it comes to Buffy's experimentation you evidently are. You're not willing to entertain for a second that this experimentation might be in character for Buffy - bear in mind here that I haven't seen how it plays out yet, I just don't have a problem with it based on what I know of her already.

How many people said Willow's lesbianism was wildly out of character? I bet it was a lot.

[Teh m0nk3y]

For better or worse, when it comes to Buffy's experimentation you evidently are. You're not willing to entertain for a second that this experimentation might be in character for Buffy - bear in mind here that I haven't seen how it plays out yet, I just don't have a problem with it based on what I know of her already.

How many people said Willow's lesbianism was wildly out of character? I bet it was a lot.

Oh, the hordes of Willow fanboys made such a noise that a disturbance in the force was felt far far into the galaxy. Then it died out and was instantly replaced with the typical fascination that heterosexual boys have for lesbians in general.

[Typo Lad]

Oh, the hordes of Willow fanboys made such a noise that a disturbance in the force was felt far far into the galaxy. Then it died out and was instantly replaced with the typical fascination that heterosexual boys have for lesbians in general.
"Oh my G-d! Women who want nothing to do with me... and this time it's not because of any glaring personal flaws on my part. That's hawt."

[diana_fan]

No offence Diana, but you are being close-minded in a sense. Not in the sense that you are a bigot, but in the sense that you havbe a very strong vision of the character in your head and you're going to leave if you feel the book does not reflect that vision.

Personally? Not seeing that as a bad thing. I've left multiple comics because I felt the creators weren't being "true" to how I saw the character.

If Judd Winick had written this, people would be up in arms. Let's put Buffy together with some hot Asian chick! Oooh!

But because Whedon backs it, we're all fine with it? No. I'm not fine with it at all. Just as I was not fine with S6 or S7. But, apparently, others were. They had no problem with "Magic as crack" or "Buffy raped" or any of the "wonderful" Andrew moments.

But I ABSOLUTELY did. I hated it. There's a reason why I have S1-S5 on DVD, and I don't have S6 or S7. I KNEW S8 was a mistake. I knew it. And now they've proven it to me.

And Meltzer is writing a future arc. :(

[Agent Helix]

hahahaha

I'm so glad I wandered back today in time to see this fucking trainwreck.

[Typo Lad]

But because Whedon backs it, we're all fine with it? No. I'm not fine with it at all. Just as I was not fine with S6 or S7. But, apparently, others were. They had no problem with "Magic as crack" or "Buffy raped" or any of the "wonderful" Andrew moments.

I didn't say was fine with it. I haven't read it yet, so I don't want to react. I had issues with the Buffy rape.

I just think saying you think something is our of character when the person writing it created the character is a bit... overly possessive.

[BnL]

The problem with Willow was that she staked her claim as a lesbian, rather than bisexual. She spent the entire first season nursing a crush on Xander, and then in seasons 2-4 she was in a serious relationship with Oz. A lot of fans of those pairings felt gypped, because her claiming to be a lesbian pretty much discounts those relationships. It just would have come across better if she had identified as bi, or at the very least, have a scene at some point where she explains her relationships with Xander and Oz in the context of her lesbian identification.

That situation barely registers any annoyance for me, though. I just think they wanted to go for the big "statement" and have her go full on gay, when making her bi would have probably made more sense.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Umm ... WHAT?!

No, just no. I get the idea of experimenting and everything. I do. But NO! Dammit, this make me mad. i have absolutely nothing against lesbians or bi-sexuals or gay men. But this pisses me the hell off.

Buffy would NEVER do that! NEVER! She's never really showed interest in women. And suddenly she is fucking a woman?! How the HELL did that happen?

Ugh.

I consider it perfectly in character, as I've already noted in other BUFFY threads here at CBR.

First off, keep in mind that Buffy has, all through the show, demonstrated a tendency to turn to sex for comfort and validation. Parker, Riley, Spike... those relationships were largely about her trying to fill the hole left by Angel's departure, or to simply feel something other than emptiness and pain. And currently, it's not like there are a lot of maile choices around for Buffy. She views Giles as a father (or did until she got pissed at him re: the recent stuff w/ Faith), Xander as a brother and Andrew as... well, as Andrew. Plus the many not-very-subtle hints that Andrew is latently or closeted-gay.

Second, it's not at all unusual for people that generally regard themselves as heterosexual to engage in some same-sex activities when they find themselves in situations where they are exclusively or near-exclusively around people of the same sex. This happens in prisons (all the sex in prisons isn't rape), in the military, in same-sex academic settings, etc.

Beyond that, I think this situation has the potential to bring in one thing so far lacking from this comic. BUFFY just isn't BUFFY unless the title character is experiencing interpersonal difficulties and inner turmoil, and now we have a situation that might provide that.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Oh, the hordes of Willow fanboys made such a noise that a disturbance in the force was felt far far into the galaxy. Then it died out and was instantly replaced with the typical fascination that heterosexual boys have for lesbians in general.

You're rather ignoring the fact that a lot of the people that embraced the Willow/Tara relationship weren't het fanboys, but rather lesbian women, who felt the relationship rang very true.

[BnL]

If Judd Winick had written this, people would be up in arms. Let's put Buffy together with some hot Asian chick! Oooh!

But because Whedon backs it, we're all fine with it? No. I'm not fine with it at all. Just as I was not fine with S6 or S7. But, apparently, others were. They had no problem with "Magic as crack" or "Buffy raped" or any of the "wonderful" Andrew moments.

But I ABSOLUTELY did. I hated it. There's a reason why I have S1-S5 on DVD, and I don't have S6 or S7. I KNEW S8 was a mistake. I knew it. And now they've proven it to me.

And Meltzer is writing a future arc. :(

Both season 6 and 7 had their good episodes, but I agree they were mostly trash.

Like it or not though, those seasons are canon. Much of the stuff that makes Buffy sleeping with this chick "in character" is because of her characterization in those two seasons. She's repeating the same pattern with this girl as she did with Spike. Again, I hated that relationship, and the shit with the attempted rape was total garbage. Still, it's in continuity, so I can't hold it against the writers for going with it. Personally, I would hope they'd opt in favor of making the lead heroine of the series LIKABLE again, but what do I know.

Or is your objection to this turn of events solely because Buffy is repeating her past behavior with a woman?

[JeffreyWKramer]

Both season 6 and 7 had their good episodes, but I agree they were mostly trash.

Like it or not though, those seasons are canon. Much of the stuff that makes Buffy sleeping with this chick "in character" is because of her characterization in those two seasons. She's repeating the same pattern with this girl as she did with Spike. Again, I hated that relationship, and the shit with the attempted rape was total garbage.

Although I hated Spike's attempted rape of Buffy (which he really didn't realize/intend as rape, clearly, given his own reactions after the fact) when I first saw it, it was actually an incredibly important turn for the character, as it made him realize that much as he might try to be loving and noble, his lack of a soul meant he'd always be a monster deep down, no matter how he tried. This is what led him to seek out a soul for himself, so he could be something other than a monster and possibly live up to the things he felt for Buffy.

Was it fucked up? Well, yes, but we are talking about an undead human/demon amalgam having feelings of love for, and lots of pretty rough and kinky sex with, a human woman whose job it is to kill vampires and other demons. I'd think "fucked up" would pretty much go with the territory.

[Teh m0nk3y]

You're rather ignoring the fact that a lot of the people that embraced the Willow/Tara relationship weren't het fanboys, but rather lesbian women, who felt the relationship rang very true.

Sorry, was to busy making lame joke. You're right about the Willow/Tara relationship. Though I feel that it would have been better if they had Willow written as bi, considering her past relationships with Oz and Xander.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Sorry, was to busy making lame joke. You're right about the Willow/Tara relationship. Though I feel that it would have been better if they had Willow written as bi, considering her past relationships with Oz and Xander.

The majority of women who eventually identify themselves as lesbian have a prior history of heterosexual relationships, but typically give up on men and turn to women due to really crappy results in their relationships with men. Willow saw Xander, the guy she crushed on for almost her whole life, first crush on Buffy, then get involved with a woman she and Xander used to hate together (Cordelia), then get involved with a former demon. Oz left her after cheating on her, and when he came back, his jealousy of her relationship with Tara made him lose the control he'd fought to gain for the previous several months. I'd think that might qualify.

This is, of course, in marked contrast to the typical pattern for males who identify themselves as gay, almost all of whom state that they were attracted to men from the start and always knew they were different.

[diana_fan]

I loved the Willow/Tara relationship. Not because it was "hawt" but because it was beautiful, and produced one of the most wonderful scenes in the entire show.

I wish I knew how to explain this. What would the reaction be if Superman got it on with Ollie? When Superman was stuck for a THOUSAND years warring, with Wonder Woman of all people (!), did he just say "Oh, what the hell, I'm gonna screw this chick." No. He stayed faithful to Lois. FOR A THOUSAND YEARS!

What does it say about Buffy? What does it say about her character? She's bored, so she nails the nearest warm entity? Man or woman? It's wrong x1000.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with two women loving each other. But there is something seriously wrong when one of those women is Buffy Summers. She even asks her partner to keep it under wraps.

I just don't see it. I really don't. Buffy would never do this.

[Alan Lynch]

What does it say about Buffy? What does it say about her character? She's bored, so she nails the nearest warm entity? Man or woman? It's wrong x1000.
Not when she's bored. But when she's depressed? When she feels isolated? When she desperately needs compassion and validation? She's been doing it for years, way I see it.

[Teh m0nk3y]

Not when she's bored. But when she's depressed? When she feels isolated? When she desperately needs compassion and validation? She's been doing it for years, way I see it.
Quoted for Truth

[Typo Lad]

I wish I knew how to explain this. What would the reaction be if Superman got it on with Ollie?

Fanfic hat on!

When Superman was stuck for a THOUSAND years warring, with Wonder Woman of all people (!), did he just say "Oh, what the hell, I'm gonna screw this chick." No. He stayed faithful to Lois. FOR A THOUSAND YEARS!
.

I'd give it until my wife' natural lifespan was over, plus another hundred years just in case, and then yes, yes I would hit that. Assuming I had any emotional attachment to "that".

[saintsaucey]

#1-5 Joss Whedon
#6-9 Brian K. Vaughan
#10-11 Joss Whedon
#12-15 Drew Goddard
#16-19 Joss Whedon
#20 Jeph Loeb
#21-30 A combination of Jane Espenson, Doug Petrie, Drew Greenberg, Jim Krueger and one other TBD
#31-35 Brad Meltzer (four or all five issues TBD)
#36-40 Joss Whedon
The season break down for those of you who haven't seen it.

Of course Meltzer is writing an arc. He's comic book royalty now because of Identity Crisis. Weather people liked it or not, they still bought it. He became an instant star with that book despite his having been in the business a bit before hand. No I don't know his complete history because I just got into comics when Identity Crisis came out. Meltzer is going to have to do something really bad to get him self off the lists of names editors turn to when they want something written. It's like my mom always said. When you are first starting out you do what they say but once you have your first hit you can pretty much record Mary Had A Little Lamb and people will buy it because it's got your name on it.

[Yoda]

I wish I knew how to explain this. What would the reaction be if Superman got it on with Ollie? When Superman was stuck for a THOUSAND years warring, with Wonder Woman of all people (!), did he just say "Oh, what the hell, I'm gonna screw this chick." No. He stayed faithful to Lois. FOR A THOUSAND YEARS!

That's a horrible analogy. Superman is for the most part a perfect well adjusted guy. Buffy, wonderful and fascinating character that she is, is flawed and has a lot of issues. If you see Buffy as an idealized person as Superman is, your reaction makes some sort of sense. You're ignoring a lot of her character in doing so. But she's not and has never been portrayed that way.

She knows she's using Satsu and I'm positive there will be repercussions from this going forward. If it was Judd Winick, there would be no repercussions and it would be fluff for fanboys. I have faith that Whedon is going to explore this and it's going to be great.

[BnL]

What does it say about Buffy? What does it say about her character? She's bored, so she nails the nearest warm entity? Man or woman? It's wrong x1000.

It says that she's completely unlikable as a character. That's really not news to me though. She's been unlikable for the past couple of seasons. This is just more of the same of Buffy's unlikable behavior. Hell, by season 7, I think the only character I still liked was Anya. She started out as a bit of a bitch, and she stayed that way throughout. You are missed, Anya!

[saintsaucey]

Agreed, Buffy and SMG are extremely unlikeable. I'd say Willow rather than Anya but the character of Buffy was birthed out of SMG's selfishness as an actress.

[Alan Lynch]

Agreed, Buffy and SMG are extremely unlikeable. I'd say Willow rather than Anya but the character of Buffy was birthed out of SMG's selfishness as an actress.
Eh? Sarah Michelle Gellar wasn't even the first actress in the role. And early Buffy didn't strike me as particularly selfish until Angel came back from Hell; even by the end of that season she'd come back around to being kind of likable again.

[diana_fan]

Agreed, Buffy and SMG are extremely unlikeable. I'd say Willow rather than Anya but the character of Buffy was birthed out of SMG's selfishness as an actress.

Oh for fuck's sake.

If you think that Buffy is unlikeable, then you have missed the entire point of the show. She's a god damned heroine who has given EVERYTHING to her world.

Watch the end of "Lie To Me" again. Watch "Becoming" or "Grad. Day Part 1".

And what the heck is up with the SMG hate?!

[BnL]

Eh? Sarah Michelle Gellar wasn't even the first actress in the role. And early Buffy didn't strike me as particularly selfish until Angel came back from Hell; even by the end of that season she'd come back around to being kind of likable again.

Sarah Michelle Gellar has long had a reputation for being a snob and generally icy to co-stars and others. The worst thing I've heard about her was that a few years ago, it was arranged for a terminally ill teenage fan of the show to visit the set of Buffy and meet the cast. Everyone was very sweet and gracious, except for Gellar, who completely snubbed the kid and refused to meet with them.

[BnL]

Oh for fuck's sake.

If you think that Buffy is unlikeable, then you have missed the entire point of the show. She's a god damned heroine who has given EVERYTHING to her world.

Watch the end of "Lie To Me" again. Watch "Becoming" or "Grad. Day Part 1".

And what the heck is up with the SMG hate?!

She's sacrificed a lot, but that doesn't necessarily make her likable. Not for the past few seasons, at least. Lots of shitty behavior tends to counteract that.

[diana_fan]

Sarah Michelle Gellar has long had a reputation for being a snob and generally icy to co-stars and others. The worst thing I've heard about her was that a few years ago, it was arranged for a terminally ill teenage fan of the show to visit the set of Buffy and meet the cast. Everyone was very sweet and gracious, except for Gellar, who completely snubbed the kid and refused to meet with them.

Total, utter BS.

And you might want to actually, you know, MEET her, as opposed to hearing stuff on the Internet.

[Teh m0nk3y]

To be honest, the last couple of seasons of the tv show I was mainly watching it for Willow, Xander, Anya and Giles.

[Corrina]

Not when she's bored. But when she's depressed? When she feels isolated? When she desperately needs compassion and validation? She's been doing it for years, way I see it.

Yes, that's pretty much my problem with the whole storyline. I've been there done that with Season 6 (and, really, so has Joss) and the flow from the end of Season 7 to this one is backward is for me.

Buffy isn't moving forward emotionally. And yet the best part of the series itself is watching her grow and move forward. After Season 1, she respected her powers. After season two, she'd accepter her responsibility to the world so much (which she'd been fighting against) that she did what she did to Angelus.

After season three, she faced down her mirror image and came out stronger.

Season four moved them into college and young adulted, with some backsliding, which made since, for Buffy as well.

Season five is when she became an adult and took care of her sister and the rest of the family.

Season six took her to a bad place because she'd been to heaven and now she was back trying to be perfect in an imperfect world, mostly.

Season Seven showed growth again as she took control, cleaned up the emotional mess with Spike, and took the battle to the First.

This season eight isn't a new thing, some new element to go over again, it's Buffy as she was emotionally back in Season 6. I'd like to see her making a whole DIFFERENT set of mistakes, not rehashing old ones.

Basically....

Bored now.

[Corrina]

Oh, just wanted to add that I have a friend who was in charge of the publicity for "Buffy," the show.

She had some interesting things to say about everyone. She did agree that SMG is a bit controlled and intense and not very likeable, but she said the Geller was always very professional and on-time and the publicity group never had any problems or complaints about her.

The other women were fine, she said, except that they tended to fight over who should be getting more publicity and push from the network. She also thought Nick Brandon was a nice guy but he, sadly, has a drinking problem.

And ASH and James Marstars were 'total, total sweethearts.'

[PatrickG]

So what's next ? Buffy doing Faith ?

They did everything but in S3...

And as Joss has noted, Buffy's not gay, just needy. And who wouldn't be in her shoes?

She was empowered by an ancient cult of men that hid behind teenage girls who died like flies. She's imbued with dark magic. She likes shoes and shopping and figure skating and ponies but can't have a normal life and is convinced bad things happen to people she cares about, both as a product of her parents' divorce and everything since. She spent time in a mental institution and had to go to the literally most hellish high school in the world.

And the early issues coupled with some subtext from the show indicates she has the hots for guys like Xander and a variety of fairly ordinary guys but she's got this complex where she thinks she'll damage them. (Go back and watch "Never Kill a Boy on the First Date"; she's into nerdy, average guys but is terrified of hurting them. And has a history of hurting them.) And look at her dream in #2 where she wants to sleep with Xander but is scared of knocking his head off.

So when she's having a Pon Farr moment, she boinks anybody around with super-powers. Currently, the closest person in proximity was a woman. But Buffy would have bumped uglies with a Polgara demon if Satsu weren't around. Which kinda makes you feel for Satsu.

[BnL]

Total, utter BS.

And you might want to actually, you know, MEET her, as opposed to hearing stuff on the Internet.

You're taking this whole thing WAY too personally.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I loved the Willow/Tara relationship. Not because it was "hawt" but because it was beautiful, and produced one of the most wonderful scenes in the entire show.

I wish I knew how to explain this. What would the reaction be if Superman got it on with Ollie? When Superman was stuck for a THOUSAND years warring, with Wonder Woman of all people (!), did he just say "Oh, what the hell, I'm gonna screw this chick." No. He stayed faithful to Lois. FOR A THOUSAND YEARS!

What does it say about Buffy? What does it say about her character?

What it says to me is that she's written a little closer to an actual human being than is usually the case with Superman.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with two women loving each other. But there is something seriously wrong when one of those women is Buffy Summers. She even asks her partner to keep it under wraps.
First off, Buffy has a history of hiding relationships. She did that when Angel returned in Season 3. She hid her relationship with Spike for a long time.

Second, this may reflect her trying to sort out what this new development means, as well as worrying how the relationship might create an impression of favoritism to the Slayerettes.

I just don't see it. I really don't. Buffy would never do this.

To me, it rings completely true, both psychologically and given Buffy's history, current situation and past characterization. Unlike you, I don't find Season 6 to be bad in terms of the character stuff. Not with Buffy, anyhow. Giles' leaving the way he did, that I have a problem with, and I think the season stayed too dark too long for its own good that season, but it is melodrama, and it works on a "darkest before the dawn" way if one considers the metacontext of the entire Seasons 1-7 as one story.

[JeffreyWKramer]

The season break down for those of you who haven't seen it.

Of course Meltzer is writing an arc. He's comic book royalty now because of Identity Crisis. Weather people liked it or not, they still bought it. He became an instant star with that book despite his having been in the business a bit before hand. No I don't know his complete history because I just got into comics when Identity Crisis came out. Meltzer is going to have to do something really bad to get him self off the lists of names editors turn to when they want something written.

I'm not as worried as I would normally be about Meltzer wirting something I enjoy, because Whedon is taking a very hands-on approach, and I trust he's not going to let Meltzer get too far afield of his own vision.

[beetlebum]

Interesting study about bi-sexuality and women (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080116080306.htm)

Apparently, for most, it's not a transitional phase. There are quite a few women out there who can remain bi-sexual and not become full out lesbians.

As for me, I didn't discover I was bi-sexual until about two years ago. It took having a crush on two women at my former job (one of whom I no longer like, due to her incompetency) and realizing that my visceral dislike of the Izzie/Alex relationship on Grey's Anatomy was partly due to the fact that I wanted to be the one in the on call room with Isobel Stevens. I was in denial about the state of my sexuality for quite some time. That was mostly due to societal pressures, as well as the pressures imposed upon me by evangelical and ecumenical bodies that were more utopian in their ideals, as opposed to compromising and ceding that some things may be positive. Eventually, overtime, my sexuality was pried out of me, and now I am comfortable with being who I really am.

If there is anything about Buffy's affair that I reject, it's her reciprocal pattern of using people to fill that void inside of her, both figuratively and literally. But, as has been noted by others, if we were to go by empiricism, this incident is not incongruous for her. A poster on another forum made an interesting observation when they remarked that Buffy is going from "cookie dough" to "flour."

Meaning? They felt that Buffy was regressing, at least emotionally, due to this affair. I'm not so sure I can agree with that statement entirely, but I do harbor some sympathy for it. I just hope that one of these days, Joss finally lets her mature and be happy.

As I've said before, there is no pure speech, just speech that spills out and alters the world. Directive, commissive, and all other forms of illocutionary intent may have intended one thing, but the perlocutionary effect is often transposed by the listener (intended or not) and produces unintended consequences. A clarification is needed.

[PatrickG]

Incidentally, though, I'm kinda hoping that Season 8 eventually pushes these characters back into secret identities, away from being authority figures and refocuses the series on a the classic Scoobies with an addition or two.

I think casting Buffy and her friends as Authority figures rather than rebel outsiders chafed a bit and made them less likable. I have trouble reconciling big sister Buffy or General Buffy with the girl from the early seasons. I have trouble reconciling order barking Xander or magic guru Willow with slacker Xander and sheepish but adorable Willow. I have trouble reconciling Giles the voice of midguided authority with Giles the caring but bookish guy who kept bucking the system.

IMO, what would help a lot is to come up with a new post-Watcher's Council, post-High School status quo where these characters have other people to answer to, other people to rebel against and authority figures who create obstacles for them rather than being the authority figures.

We need a Snyder, a Mayor, a Watcher's Council, a Sunnydale PD.

Give the characters bosses. Place them in a (more) normal social setting. Bring back some of the allegory.

Buffy is better disobeying orders for the right reasons than GIVING orders for the right reasons.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Sarah Michelle Gellar has long had a reputation for being a snob and generally icy to co-stars and others.

As far as I can tell, that comes more from fan impression than from the professionals. Amber Benson, Anthony Stewart Head and James Marsters have never said anything but positive about her that I've seen, and Joss praises the hell out of her in lots of interviews, commentaries, etc.

She appears to me to be is a very private person who, especially since getting married, puts a priority on her marriage and on having a life outside her work, and she is also very concerned about not sticking to one thing until it's driven into the ground. In other words, she has her own ideas about who she wants to be and what she wants to do, and some fans can't stand that she isn't interested in catering to them.

[JKCarrier]

I just don't see it. I really don't. Buffy would never do this.

Because Buffy always shows so much good judgement and foresight in her choice of bed partners. It's not like every single romantic relationship she's had has been a flaming trainwreck or anything. Oh, wait...

[PatrickG]

This is, of course, in marked contrast to the typical pattern for males who identify themselves as gay, almost all of whom state that they were attracted to men from the start and always knew they were different.

I had a gay professor whose first crush was apparently Mighty Mouse. He confessed to a few of his students that he used to have Mighty Mouse sheets and that he'd punch the pictures of Mighty Mouse's girlfriend out of jealousy as a small child.

If I ever got to write anything Buffy-ish, I'd have to use that somehow. It's just too precious an idea.

[Puma]

I am really not at all surprised by this development. Buffy is incredibly isolated from other people, much of this is due to her being a slayer- even with hundreds now she is still THE Slayer. She went through her development alone, her friends and watcher tried to help but she, like the rest of us, had to work out who she was herself. I think it can be inferred that she feels that everyone she has been close to has been hurt, killed, or is in exile from her, due to her being the slayer. Her relationships have been dysfunctional. Yet she still needs to feel and to have a connection with other people. She is faced with a young woman who professes to love her so she selfishly embraces the emotion even when its in a female package just to feel the connection with another person. I think it is the first step towards healing.

[beetlebum]

I don't get the Sarah Michelle Gellar hatred either. If you dislike her so much, wouldn't that ruin the show for you? As for Buffy being selfish, in "Becoming" she sacrifices the man she loved to save a world that treats her like s****. And in "The Gift" she sacrifices herself, for crying out loud.

I don't like Ellen Pompeo ( it's not that I have a problem with her particularly, it's just that her acting is so bad it leaves me in stitches with laughter), but that still does not prevent me from watching GA. I guess it's just a testament to the strength of the cast, both for that show and Buffy, to where people can watch it and not like the lead character. It's good writing and good acting, mate.

As for the stories about Sarah, well, no actress is perfect. If I were to use stories about things she's allegedly done on set not to like her, than I might as well not like any famous person at all.

[BnL]

Believe me, I don't care enough to hate Sarah Michelle Gellar. The times I've had problems with the show, it had nothing to do with her or her acting. I was just pointing out where some of the dislike from others is coming from, based on what I've heard over the years.

[PatrickG]

Sarah Michelle Gellar has long had a reputation for being a snob and generally icy to co-stars and others. The worst thing I've heard about her was that a few years ago, it was arranged for a terminally ill teenage fan of the show to visit the set of Buffy and meet the cast. Everyone was very sweet and gracious, except for Gellar, who completely snubbed the kid and refused to meet with them.

The "Bad Gellar" stories are as prolific as the "Bad Byrne" stories, except generally without any basis that comes from SMG herself.

For all we know, she found the situation emotionally disturbing and was crying in her trailer for the poor kid.

You could just as easily buy the rumor that she had a miscarriage because of the rigors of the show and that everybody told her to just get over it... or that she felt severely violated by the scenes with Spike but was forced to do them under contract.

From what I've seen of the woman, she's okay. Joss Whedon is my hero and I'd love to have drinks with the supporting cast because they seem like wildly entertaining and fun people. But I wouldn't say one bad word about SMG or Freddie Prinze Jr. because of any perceived or rumored friction and I do believe that every story has at least two valid sides.

[diana_fan]

What it says to me is that she's written a little closer to an actual human being than is usually the case with Superman.

But she's Buffy! She is more than just a girl, the way that Superman is more than just a man. She's Chosen.

First off, Buffy has a history of hiding relationships. She did that when Angel returned in Season 3. She hid her relationship with Spike for a long time.

Fair enough. Although I don't really accept the Spike relationship.


To me, it rings completely true, both psychologically and given Buffy's history, current situation and past characterization. Unlike you, I don't find Season 6 to be bad in terms of the character stuff. Not with Buffy, anyhow. Giles' leaving the way he did, that I have a problem with, and I think the season stayed too dark too long for its own good that season, but it is melodrama, and it works on a "darkest before the dawn" way if one considers the metacontext of the entire Seasons 1-7 as one story.

S6 was wrong on almost every level. It showed a level of hate for Buffy Summers, when the previous seasons had been about love. Tortured, crippled, horrific love -- but love nonetheless.

S6 was all about a nightmare. It was all about Buffy being degraded. She had sex in a dumpster, for god's sake. She was nearly raped. When, in previous seasons, she had grown each given year, in S6 she not only regressed, but was terribly treated.

I'm all in favor of character development. I'm all in favor of characters going through Hell to get to Heaven. What I'm not in favor of is dumpster sex. I'm not in favor of a young woman who had previously been a heroine screwing someone who was disgusting, evil. I don't hold with that. I don't see that as development. I see it as revolting.

The Buffy Summers who sacrificed herself in "The Gift", who battled Angelus and overcame the emotional terror of the situation as well as the physical, the Buffy who was a friend -- THAT Buffy wasn't the Buffy from S6.


PS: Oh, and if was unclear earlier, I'm a big fan of Meltzer. I was really looking forward to his arc. Now, I'll have to read about it.

[Sean Walsh]

This is exactly like something she would do. Feeling alone in the world and taking advantage of the people around her in attempt to try and make herself feel better about the way things are. As great a hero Buffy is she uses and abuses the people around her when she feels the need to.

You do realize the poor woman died a heroic death and was then ripped out of heaven by her friends, right?

I'd imagine that'll f a person up pretty bad.

[beetlebum]

I hated the Buffy/Spike relationship as well. It was just so self destructive, and I hated the whole "You belong in the darkness" nonsense. No, she does not. Buffy to me, is the embodiment of light, the most redeeming quality about a universe as bleak as hers. The only relationship that matches the way I feel about Buffy and Spike in terms of dislike is Logan and Veronica.

Yeah, I said it!!!!!!!!!

*puts on flame retardant gear*

You want me to explain? Do you have all of the time in the world?

Coincidentally, this is part of the reason why I stopped posting in TWoP. :p

[Alan Lynch]

Yes, that's pretty much my problem with the whole storyline. I've been there done that with Season 6 (and, really, so has Joss) and the flow from the end of Season 7 to this one is backward is for me.
I can see that. I'm more willing to let it slide because I'm enjoying this way more than I did the last 4 seasons of the show. I just think it's being executed better, with a couple of slow issues here and there.
But she's Buffy! She is more than just a girl, the way that Superman is more than just a man. She's Chosen.
Wow. I couldn't disagree more; physically Buffy's something special, but mentally? She's just a regular girl, with all the fuck-ups that entails. I seriously didn't see anything in the show to make me think anything else; I always thought that's what made the whole thing so appealing.

[jerrymcl89]

But she's Buffy! She is more than just a girl, the way that Superman is more than just a man. She's Chosen.


To me, the essence of Buffy is that she's great at being heroic, and struggles at being human. This is just more of the same. In terms of sleeping with another woman, it's not something I'd have expected her to do, but I don't think it's entirely out of left field, either. In terms of this being a bad choice because she's sleeping with someone who loves her and who she doesn't love - well, bad choices and dealing with the consequences of them are most of what her story has been about.

[Evan Waters]

From my perspective, season 6 was a very successful portrayal of ennui and alienation, things which affect a lot of people.

Problem is that sort of thing just plain isn't very fun or empowering. But I think it works on its own terms.

[diana_fan]

Wow. I couldn't disagree more; physically Buffy's something special, but mentally? She's just a regular girl, with all the fuck-ups that entails. I seriously didn't see anything in the show to make me think anything else; I always thought that's what made the whole thing so appealing.

What is Superman but physically stronger, faster, whatever-er?

Buffy is the Chosen One. She is the one person, a young girl, alone against all the demons, the vampires, the warriors of the dark side. Yes, she is just a kid, and just a high school student. But she's also The Slayer.

And since when did being a "regular girl" mean that you're likely to jump into bed with another woman?

[beetlebum]

Wow. I couldn't disagree more; physically Buffy's something special, but mentally? She's just a regular girl, with all the fuck-ups that entails. I seriously didn't see anything in the show to make me think anything else; I always thought that's what made the whole thing so appealing.

I agree with this point. And that's part of the reason why I like her so much. She has problems, and she messes things up. I.o, she's just like me. We must be careful not to project to much unto fictional characters. Doing so leads to disappointment.

[Teh m0nk3y]

What is Superman but physically stronger, faster, whatever-er?

Buffy is the Chosen One. She is the one person, a young girl, alone against all the demons, the vampires, the warriors of the dark side. Yes, she is just a kid, and just a high school student. But she's also The Slayer.

And since when did being a "regular girl" mean that you're likely to jump into bed with another woman?

I think it's the all American boyscout thing when it comes to Superman.
Buffy is not like that. She is heroic when it counts, but struggles with her life in general.

[diana_fan]

I agree with this point. And that's part of the reason why I like her so much. She has problems, and she messes things up. I.o, she's just like me. We must be careful not to project to much unto fictional characters. Doing so leads to disappointment.

Obviously, Buffy's humanity was critical to her character. She screwed up all the time, she worried about doing the right thing, she messed up her relations with her friends, all of that.

But Buffy was, at heart, a heroine and a warrior. A kid, a girl, a friend, but always The Slayer.



And I'm sorry if I seemed closed-minded. That's not at all how I want to come off. I have no problem with any kind of sexuality. People enjoy what they enjoy. Good. But Buffy Summers, totally out of the blue, being bi-sexual is just not acceptable. It's a stunt. I have no idea why they felt it necessary, but it's a stunt.

[Teh m0nk3y]

At least this one has a pulse.

[Typo Lad]

Obviously, Buffy's humanity was critical to her character. She screwed up all the time, she worried about doing the right thing, she messed up her relations with her friends, all of that.

But Buffy was, at heart, a heroine and a warrior. A kid, a girl, a friend, but always The Slayer.

Ah, see, and I see it the other way around. At her heart, Buffy always seemed to be someone who just wanted to be One of The Girls. Through the series she became the Slayer, but I think that core "Wanna be like YOU" still exists.

[Red Jack]

Whedon created Buffy.

Whedon says it's in character.

Whedon says Buffy is not gay.

Whedon says youth is for experimentation.

Whedon says there will be emotional repercussions for both ladies.

End of controversy.

[diana_fan]

At least this one has a pulse.

OK, that's funny. :)


But it also drives the point home: all of Buffy's lovers have been men. When has she shown an interest in women? All of a sudden, she's bi?!

If this were two men, the reaction would be completely different. If Xander suddenly nailed Andrew, for example, there would be outrage.

[TCJohnson]

End of controversy.

Well, beginning of controversy, but that is what makes it so great.

[TCJohnson]

If a woman has sex with a woman and then says, "Never again!" does that mean she is bi?

[beetlebum]

Obviously, Buffy's humanity was critical to her character. She screwed up all the time, she worried about doing the right thing, she messed up her relations with her friends, all of that.

But Buffy was, at heart, a heroine and a warrior. A kid, a girl, a friend, but always The Slayer.



And I'm sorry if I seemed closed-minded. That's not at all how I want to come off. I have no problem with any kind of sexuality. People enjoy what they enjoy. Good. But Buffy Summers, totally out of the blue, being bi-sexual is just not acceptable. It's a stunt. I have no idea why they felt it necessary, but it's a stunt.

Thanks for the apology. I don't think it was necessary, but it is a testament to the strength of your character. I was just baffled, because it seemed like an extreme reaction. And when you tie it together with sex......

*powder keg*

And yeah, maybe it was a stunt. Outlets that don't traditionally talk about this medium are paying attention to it. Last night, I read an article on ABC.com, and newspapers like the New York Times are doing articles about this. If any good has come out of this, it's that people who wouldn't normally talk about comics are paying attention. And things like this make can make people look in the mirror and examine attitudes towards sexuality. Either way, Joss Whedon must be happy with all of the bank he's gonna make from this. ;)

[Alan Lynch]

And I'm sorry if I seemed closed-minded. That's not at all how I want to come off. I have no problem with any kind of sexuality. People enjoy what they enjoy. Good. But Buffy Summers, totally out of the blue, being bi-sexual is just not acceptable. It's a stunt. I have no idea why they felt it necessary, but it's a stunt.
I don't think you've come across as close-minded about sexuality. A little about the character of Buffy, but that's small potatoes in the grand scheme. You're fine here, man; just a bunch of folks talking vampire slayers.
But it also drives the point home: all of Buffy's lovers have been men. When has she shown an interest in women? All of a sudden, she's bi?!
I imagine people said the same about Willow.
If this were two men, the reaction would be completely different. If Xander suddenly nailed Andrew, for example, there would be outrage.
It would depend entirely on the men in question really. Buffy has a history of using sex to make an emotional connection when she's at the end of her rope. Xander's never been that assertive, so we don't know. He's had the opportunity to experiment before and turned it down though, even if it was ages ago, so there would have to be a long setup if anyone would take it seriously. Buffy has a good few years of making bad decisions with regards to sex, and the sheer brass neck to try something as bold as this.

[diana_fan]

Thanks for the apology. I don't think it was necessary, but it is a testament to the strength of your character. I was just baffled, because it seemed like an extreme reaction. And when you tie it together with sex......

*powder keg*

And yeah, maybe it was a stunt. Outlets that don't traditionally talk about this medium are paying attention to it. Last night, I read an article on ABC.com, and newspapers like the New York Times are doing articles about this. If any good has come out of this, it's that people who wouldn't normally talk about comics are paying attention. And things like this make can make people look in the mirror and examine attitudes towards sexuality. Either way, Joss Whedon must be happy with all of the bank he's gonna make from this. ;)

But how is that different from the Batwoman thing? Everyone attacked DiDio for that (even though it was the writer who used the term "lipstick lesbian"), but this is ok?

I used to have dreams about Buffy. No, not those kinds of dreams, you pervs! I used to dream about the show. All the time. Practically every night. The show meant a lot to me. It really did. Before I was reading comics, or understood the concept of being a fanboy, I was drenched in Buffy.

I think that BnL is probably right: I'm taking this WAY too personally. Maybe I should just pop in "Lie To Me" or "Becoming" or "This Year's Girl" or "When She Was Bad" and just relax.

Joss can do whatever he wants. She is his character. So, he's free to do whatever he chooses.

It's just depressing. To me.

[jerrymcl89]

If a woman has sex with a woman and then says, "Never again!" does that mean she is bi?

If she says "Never again!" because she didn't like it, then no. Buffy certainly appeared to have liked it, though.

[JeffreyWKramer]

But she's Buffy! She is more than just a girl, the way that Superman is more than just a man. She's Chosen.

But Buffy has always been written more realistically than has Superman, and the themes of the show have always tended to be more mature and more grounded in reality than is the case with Superman.

In all likelihood, if someone with Buffy's abilities, history and mission really existed, they'd probably be a lot more like Buffy than like Superman.


Fair enough. Although I don't really accept the Spike relationship.
It's there, and part of the show, so what's to not accept?

Now, whether you like it or not is up to you, of course, but your not accepting it isn't any more relevant than whether or not I accept that it's raining. My acceptance, or lack thereof, doesn't change the fact of whatever the weather happens to be.


S6 was wrong on almost every level. It showed a level of hate for Buffy Summers, when the previous seasons had been about love. Tortured, crippled, horrific love -- but love nonetheless.

That's your opinion, and it's a fairly common one, which does suggest that Season 6 was a time when Joss and his crew were out of tune with the fanbase. That said, I don't think it's a horrible season at all. If you look at the entire run of the show as one big story, Season 6 served well the purpose of things getting really bad before they get resolved. Thematically, there were some cool things going on. It was certainly more mature, and I do agree that it probably stayed too dark too much of the time, and that this was somewhat counterproductive, but at least Joss a) tried something different, and b) had something actually in mind, instead of having no plan or goal for the series and making it just the same old thing week after week or a copy of XENA or X-FILES or some other show.

Season 6 was still about love in some ways - it was about Buffy relearning to love life after a lot of tragedy. It was about Spike figuring out what love really is. It is about what happens when some people lose love, and how some other people accept tragedy in a helpful, rather than a harmful, way. It is sometimes about how people can make bad decisions for the sake of love. Ultimately in season 6, Xander saves the world by maintaining and expressing his love for Willow. And through Seasons 6-7, Spike's redemption is fueled by love. For Buffy, the season starts with her waking up in her own grave and having to dig her way out after her friends have brought her back for mixed, but to some degree selfish, purposes, and it ends with her and Dawn in, essentially a grave, and finding her way out of there by showing trust and by recognizing that it is better for her to be there for and with another person than to stay absorbed in her own misery.

S6 was all about a nightmare. It was all about Buffy being degraded. She had sex in a dumpster, for god's sake. She was nearly raped.
There are a few times when I would agree that went too far. The scene where she and Spike had sex in the balcony of the Bronze while watching her friends down below - that was too far a departure for Buffy who had always kept her sexuality very private.

However, I also want to point out that Buffy did a lot of the degradation to herself. One theme that was explored that season is the psychological consequences of sex and of letting one's urges loose.

When, in previous seasons, she had grown each given year, in S6 she not only regressed, but was terribly treated.
She also came back from the dead. One would expect that might serve somewhat to disrupt one's foreward development, especially given that in this case, Buffy went from a place full of pain and conflict to one of peace, then got tossed back into all the pain and conflict. When under stress, people often reflexively regress. That's a basic psychological principle.

I'm all in favor of character development. I'm all in favor of characters going through Hell to get to Heaven. What I'm not in favor of is dumpster sex. I'm not in favor of a young woman who had previously been a heroine screwing someone who was disgusting, evil. I don't hold with that. I don't see that as development. I see it as revolting.
That's your choice. Lots of people find BUFFY Season 6 not to their tastes for a lot of reasons.

Keep in mind, though, at the point you are talking about, Spike wasn't exactly pure evil. He'd been rendered unable to prey on humans for a couple seasons now. He'd fought alongside Buffy repeatedly. He'd admitted his love for her, and he'd lived up to it not only by risking his life again and again, but by refusing to betray her trust while under torture and facing almost certain death.

Also, in Season 3, Buffy went right back to Angel after, as Angelus, he'd just the year before horribly tortured Giles, done huge, cruel mindgames on Buffy herself and on Willow and killed Jenny. On one level, maybe she's too forgiving, but on another, a huge theme in BUFFY is that of redemption, and Spike's story arc through seasons 5-7 is very much one of redemption and how difficult that is, how selfishness can throw one off track.

The Buffy Summers who sacrificed herself in "The Gift", who battled Angelus and overcame the emotional terror of the situation as well as the physical, the Buffy who was a friend -- THAT Buffy wasn't the Buffy from S6.

I feel strongly otherwise. She had to face having earned peace via her sacrifice, then having it pulled away. She had to face up yet again to the fact that her destiny prevented her from enjoying many things in life while requiring constant sacrifice. She had trouble dealing with these things, but in the end, she got back on track, even though the ride there wasn't smooth.

PS: Oh, and if was unclear earlier, I'm a big fan of Meltzer. I was really looking forward to his arc. Now, I'll have to read about it.
Well, once again, our tastes very much differ. I am at a loss how to understand your liking Meltzer, a guy who constantly rewrites characters to be what he wants them to be rather than going along with established characterization, while dissing Whedon, who is creating his own character. As to pointlessly dark... hello, IDENTITY CRISIS????

[JeffreyWKramer]

From my perspective, season 6 was a very successful portrayal of ennui and alienation, things which affect a lot of people.

Problem is that sort of thing just plain isn't very fun or empowering. But I think it works on its own terms.


Well put, and it particularly works well if one looks it as a phase, in the context of the entire run of the show, and where she goes from there.

[JeffreyWKramer]

And since when did being a "regular girl" mean that you're likely to jump into bed with another woman?

Lots of regular people do that. Same-sex experiences aren't exactly rare.

Really, do you really want to be arguing that someone being sexual with someone of the same gender somehow makes that person "abnormal?"

[TCJohnson]

If she says "Never again!" because she didn't like it, then no. Buffy certainly appeared to have liked it, though.

I did not read the story itself but from what Whedon says she is not completely comfortable with what she did.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I did not read the story itself but from what Whedon says she is not completely comfortable with what she did.

She clearly enjoyed it, but she's unclear what the implications mean.

And, Buffy has almost never been comfortable with what she's done sexually, and especially whenever she steps outside conventional boundaries, despite ample evidence that she's not exactly the most sexually conventional young woman in the world.

[beetlebum]

But how is that different from the Batwoman thing? Everyone attacked DiDio for that (even though it was the writer who used the term "lipstick lesbian"), but this is ok?

I used to have dreams about Buffy. No, not those kinds of dreams, you pervs! I used to dream about the show. All the time. Practically every night. The show meant a lot to me. It really did. Before I was reading comics, or understood the concept of being a fanboy, I was drenched in Buffy.

I think that BnL is probably right: I'm taking this WAY too personally. Maybe I should just pop in "Lie To Me" or "Becoming" or "This Year's Girl" or "When She Was Bad" and just relax.

Joss can do whatever he wants. She is his character. So, he's free to do whatever he chooses.

It's just depressing. To me.

That sums it up right there. Honestly, I was indifferent to the Batwoman thing. I didn't really care about whether or not Kathy Kane was gay. The only thing that I found humorous, and if not appalling, was the visceral reaction to it. Some Americans just react in the oddest ways when forced to look in the mirror and examine their views on sexuality. It's a legacy left over from the Calvinists that first settled this nation.

And, although I severely doubt that there was any pure deontological motive behind this, I am actually delighted that she, or at least Joss was open minded enough to engage in same sex experimentation.

Diana, it's okay, it really is. Just calm down, and you'll be back to enjoying Buffy in no time. ;)

[Puma]

Well put, and it particularly works well if one looks it as a phase, in the context of the entire run of the show, and where she goes from there.

Yes. I always looked at the show thusly:

Seasons 1-3: puberty, personal identity development and developing interpersonal relationships. Which works perfectly in High School because thats where most people really begin to self-identify and form significant relationships. Giles, of course, is the parental figure.
Season 4: the beginning of adulthood. Leaving the safe confines of home yet still having home to go to, still having a parent child relationship. Continuing to refine a sense of self and purpose, continuing to define relationships. Losing the dependence of parental figure(s).
Season 5: adulthood, distance from childhood, increased responsibility, acceptance of one's place in the world. This is where most of us get on with life, using what we have learned. Buffy instead gives the ultimate sacrifice, knowing it is the right thing for her. Her life ends, her development stops.
Season 6: Mid-life crisis (even in your early twenties). Severe emotional trauma. Alienation. Parental figure steps away to allow individual growth.I actually liked season 6 for looking at what happens when everyone around you is getting on with life and developing and you're in a holding pattern- stuck without a sense of purpose.
Season 7: Restored sense of self, new life. It is a different life than before but it needs to be. Buffy was stagnant, she hadn't developed since "The Gift". In a way she had to be torn down so that she could rebuild. Yes, she is harder, more guarded, but sometimes that's what life, and death, do to people.
Season 8: Buffy needs to learn to open up to the people around her again. To balance her responsibilities with her need to love and be loved. I think that is where Joss is going.

[beetlebum]

I did not read the story itself but from what Whedon says she is not completely comfortable with what she did.

Um, dude, she said "Wow." Unless "wow" now means something else, than it's clear that she enjoyed it to me! ;) :D

[Alan Lynch]

Um, dude, she said "Wow." Unless "wow" now means something else, than it's clear that she enjoyed it to me! ;) :D
She might have enjoyed the orgasm - who doesn't? - but in a wider context she can still view the whole thing as a horrible mistake.

[diana_fan]

Lots of regular people do that. Same-sex experiences aren't exactly rare.

Really, do you really want to be arguing that someone being sexual with someone of the same gender somehow makes that person "abnormal?"

That was not what I was saying. At all. Dammit, I'm not clearly expressing myself, it seems.

All I meant was that saying she's a regular girl doesn't somehow mean that she's bi-sexual. I don't for a second deny that same-sex relationships happen a lot more than we generally accept. And I have no issue with gay sex.

If I implied differently, than I apologize. I really didn't mean anything of the kind.

[beetlebum]

She might have enjoyed the orgasm - who doesn't? - but in a wider context she can still view the whole thing as a horrible mistake.

So in other words, it's no different than her previous relationships. :rolleyes:

[TCJohnson]

Um, dude, she said "Wow." Unless "wow" now means something else, than it's clear that she enjoyed it to me! ;) :D

Actually, "Wow" by itself can mean a lot of things.

I did see that page online.

http://www.newsarama.com/DarkHorsenew/Buffy/from_buffy12.jpg

The look on her face is not happiness or contentment...it's confusion.

I don't think it was "Wow, that is great!" I think that is more like, "Wow...I can't believe that just happened."

[diana_fan]

So in other words, it's no different than her previous relationships. :rolleyes:

The relationship between Buffy and Angel was pure love. True, pure love.

Yes, it turned into a nightmare. But their love was as true as it gets.

[TCJohnson]

I don't think Buffy is bisexual...and I think that is going to be a conflict in the upcoming issues.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Yes. I always looked at the show thusly:

Seasons 1-3: puberty, personal identity development and developing interpersonal relationships. Which works perfectly in High School because thats where most people really begin to self-identify and form significant relationships. Giles, of course, is the parental figure.
Season 4: the beginning of adulthood. Leaving the safe confines of home yet still having home to go to, still having a parent child relationship. Continuing to refine a sense of self and purpose, continuing to define relationships. Losing the dependence of parental figure(s).
Season 5: adulthood, distance from childhood, increased responsibility, acceptance of one's place in the world. This is where most of us get on with life, using what we have learned. Buffy instead gives the ultimate sacrifice, knowing it is the right thing for her. Her life ends, her development stops.
Season 6: Mid-life crisis (even in your early twenties). Severe emotional trauma. Alienation. Parental figure steps away to allow individual growth.I actually liked season 6 for looking at what happens when everyone around you is getting on with life and developing and you're in a holding pattern- stuck without a sense of purpose.
Season 7: Restored sense of self, new life. It is a different life than before but it needs to be. Buffy was stagnant, she hadn't developed since "The Gift". In a way she had to be torn down so that she could rebuild. Yes, she is harder, more guarded, but sometimes that's what life, and death, do to people.
Season 8: Buffy needs to learn to open up to the people around her again. To balance her responsibilities with her need to love and be loved. I think that is where Joss is going.


Excellent summary, really.

BTW, I am loving this thread. The more I watch BUFFY, the more I appreciate the depth and the many levels of the show, and it's good to discuss the show and its themes, even though we don't all agree. Really, that's part of what critical analysis is about. As it happens, I've been immersing myself pretty heavily into BUFFY media/lit crit of late, and given these matters a lot of thought of late. I'm definitely of the opinion that BUFFY transcends "mere entertainment."

A lot of Willow fans would probably hate some of what I have to say about that character's development. I like Willow quite a lot, but those that consider Willow's shift from sunniness to season 6's darkness incomprehensible are missing a hell of a lot of subtext and foreshadowing.

[Typo Lad]

Actually, "Wow" by itself can mean a lot of things.

I did see that page online.

http://www.newsarama.com/DarkHorsenew/Buffy/from_buffy12.jpg

The look on her face is not happiness or contentment...it's confusion.

I don't think it was "Wow, that is great!" I think that is more like, "Wow...I can't believe that just happened."
Sheets do not work that way!

[NickThompson]

The "Bad Gellar" stories are as prolific as the "Bad Byrne" stories, except generally without any basis that comes from SMG herself.

For all we know, she found the situation emotionally disturbing and was crying in her trailer for the poor kid.

You could just as easily buy the rumor that she had a miscarriage because of the rigors of the show and that everybody told her to just get over it... or that she felt severely violated by the scenes with Spike but was forced to do them under contract.

From what I've seen of the woman, she's okay. Joss Whedon is my hero and I'd love to have drinks with the supporting cast because they seem like wildly entertaining and fun people. But I wouldn't say one bad word about SMG or Freddie Prinze Jr. because of any perceived or rumored friction and I do believe that every story has at least two valid sides.
I think the other problem with these sort of stories is that you can't be 100% happy and lovely all the time. You could be a lovely person in your free time but a very serious and professional person when filming and not be great when people run up for photos or autographs, and you'd get a bad rep out of that.






Oddly, I never really liked Buffy as a character. She was alright, but I preferred her supporting cast.

[TCJohnson]

Sheets do not work that way!

They can when you are REALLY sweaty.

[JeffreyWKramer]

That was not what I was saying. At all. Dammit, I'm not clearly expressing myself, it seems.

Well, what I wrote was what you were saying, essentially. I didn't think it was what you were really intending to say, though, which is why I pointed it out.

All I meant was that saying she's a regular girl doesn't somehow mean that she's bi-sexual. I don't for a second deny that same-sex relationships happen a lot more than we generally accept. And I have no issue with gay sex.

If I implied differently, than I apologize. I really didn't mean anything of the kind.

Well, certianly Buffy's current sexual activities aren't required for her to be a "regular girl", but they also aren't a contraindication.

I get that you think this development is completely out of character for Buffy, but I honestly don't understand either how or why you feel that way, and I don't think you're being clear at all about that. I have to wonder, given your admitting that you are taking this rather too personally, if somehow this latest issue's revelations just don't jibe with your own fantasy identification with the character. I consider this development completely in keeping with the character's established personality and actions, but I'd be interested in reading more clearly why you feel this isn't the case.

[Starleafgirl]

Umm ... WHAT?!

No, just no. I get the idea of experimenting and everything. I do. But NO! Dammit, this make me mad. i have absolutely nothing against lesbians or bi-sexuals or gay men. But this pisses me the hell off.

Buffy would NEVER do that! NEVER! She's never really showed interest in women. And suddenly she is fucking a woman?! How the HELL did that happen?

Ugh.

I just want to start out by saying... HI d_f!!! Lol. See you've migrated over to these boards. Welcome.

Second of all, I'm not going to read all eight pages of this thread... I'm sure there are good points to be made on either side of the argument.

But I, for one, am sick and tired of all my comic book heroines turning into lesbians. I'm sick of writers like Joss Whedon and C.B. Cebulski, both of whom I adore, putting in the seeds of lesbianism where there was previously little to no evidence of it.

You could say I'm sick of it for two main reasons:
1) I'm a woman who's never considered swinging "that way." I had a lot of bi- and lesbian friends in high school, some of which weren't all that bad looking (sad to say, most of them weren't really lookers... why are all gay men hot and most lesbian women not? ;) Kidding, kidding. Just doesn't seem fair. ;D). Anyway, the point is, even so, I've never been sexually attracted to another woman, so I'd like to have at least one heroine who's as straight as I am (because that's the world view that makes the most sense to me and to which I can relate the best).
2) There are just too many lesbians and not enough gay men in comics. I demand more, well-written gay men to balance it out and better reflect reality. :rolleyes:

You can poke holes in my argument all you want, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I've admired Buffy since Season 1, watched the entire series, and though to my great dislike Buffy seemed much hornier after she came back from the dead (uh, the death where she has to crawl out of her own grave), so much so that she turned to SPIKE for comfort/angry sex, I've never seen an inkling that she might turn to a woman at some point. At least, not in the TV series; it's been sort of hinted that this would happen in "Season 8."

However, like the recent CBR article said, she does live in a castle with 500 or so girls and one guy -- and that guy, if I'm not mistaken, is Xander, with whom, as we all know, sexual tension died out Seasons ago. He's now nothing more than her straight best friend. And I'm fine with that; Xander's crush was cute but I don't think they'd make sense as a couple.

Anyway, back to the issue at hand, she's living with 500 girls and one best friend and she's always been a very open-minded person -- certainly since after she became an outcast herself for being the Slayer. She's had to learn a lot of tolerance and understanding down the road because she wants tolerance and understanding for herself.

I feel like something like this would have happened in Season 8 if there had been a TV show, anyhow, because it's the next logical step for reborn, horny Buffy looking for someone to warm her at the cold, lonely top of the Slayer chain (99% of the people she knows are female). :rolleyes: I just hope, on the TV show and in the comics, that it's nothing more than a fling... and that she's really straight... because if she's not, that would invalidate seven seasons of the TV show, in terms of relationships and such.

I say "fling" rather than "experiment" because I'm sure, to Buffy, it's serious, not just a curiosity. I'd say, if anything, Spike was the experiment... at least at first, but he grew to be more to her.

It really should go without saying, but I want nothing less than equality for bi, trans, gay, etc., people. I just can't help but feel a little disappointed that yet another writer I admire is going down this path with one of their heroines. I know I should be more open-minded about it, so I'll try to have an open mind about it and see where this is going. I just don't think it's too much to ask for a straight woman to have some straight, strong, interesting comic book women to look up to. :rolleyes:

[JeffreyWKramer]

Sheets do not work that way!

YES!

That was the one thing I most disliked about the scene - it looks like they're under opaque saran wrap or something, not sheets.

Of course, maybe they were, and the whole scene is a lot more deeply kinky than we've been told so far! ;)

[TCJohnson]

What happened does not make her a lesbian! It doesn't even make her bisexual.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Actually, "Wow" by itself can mean a lot of things.

I did see that page online.

http://www.newsarama.com/DarkHorsenew/Buffy/from_buffy12.jpg

The look on her face is not happiness or contentment...it's confusion.

I don't think it was "Wow, that is great!" I think that is more like, "Wow...I can't believe that just happened."


It's easy enough to think that from just the single panel out of context, and you're not completely wrong, but there's a bit more to it. From other things said in the scene, it's clear that Buffy was blown away by the sex, but she's struggling with what it means to her, and where things might go and what might result from that, plus - as she's done before - she expresses some insecurity as to whether she was good in bed.

Like I said, part of why I love this issue is that it brings in the inner toil and interpersonal angst which, much as it drives some up the wall, is really an essential component of Buffy the character and BUFFY the series.

[beetlebum]

Actually, "Wow" by itself can mean a lot of things.

I did see that page online.

http://www.newsarama.com/DarkHorsenew/Buffy/from_buffy12.jpg

The look on her face is not happiness or contentment...it's confusion.

I don't think it was "Wow, that is great!" I think that is more like, "Wow...I can't believe that just happened."

Illocutionary intent, perlocutionary effect.....

And besides, I was joking. :rolleyes: =p

[JeffreyWKramer]

Oddly, I never really liked Buffy as a character. She was alright, but I preferred her supporting cast.

In some ways, Buffy is a pretty hard character to like. She has some definite flaws, and is fairly complex, containing some contradictions that aren't the unrealistic type, but rather the sort that depict her as still a work in progress as a person. I don't rank her very high among my personal-favorite characters from the show, but that just reflects my own preferences about what character traits I find attractive. I think she's a great character and extremely well written, with lots of depth.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I just don't think it's too much to ask for a straight woman to have some straight, strong, interesting comic book women to look up to. :rolleyes:

How about most of the female characters in comics?

Selina Kyle, Sue Richards, Ororo, Dinah Lance (when written by Gail and Dixon, at least)... then there's Wonder Woman.

And this is just sticking to superhero comics, of course. There are lot of interesting, straight women in other sorts of comics, too.

[beetlebum]

Excellent summary, really.

BTW, I am loving this thread. The more I watch BUFFY, the more I appreciate the depth and the many levels of the show, and it's good to discuss the show and its themes, even though we don't all agree. Really, that's part of what critical analysis is about. As it happens, I've been immersing myself pretty heavily into BUFFY media/lit crit of late, and given these matters a lot of thought of late. I'm definitely of the opinion that BUFFY transcends "mere entertainment."

A lot of Willow fans would probably hate some of what I have to say about that character's development. I like Willow quite a lot, but those that consider Willow's shift from sunniness to season 6's darkness incomprehensible are missing a hell of a lot of subtext and foreshadowing.

Yup. So am I. Now I'm gonna go back and read my old Buffy comics and hell, watch episodes from seasons five and six. (Which I normally don't, mainly because I find most of the episodes during those aforementioned seasons to be depressing. )

There's even a website devoted to Buffy and philosophy. On it, Aristotle's Law Of Identity, phenomenology, and Nicomachean ethics are all examined using story lines and characters from our favorite television programme! Me am so happy! :D

[JeffreyWKramer]

There's even a website devoted to Buffy and philosophy. On it, Aristotle's Law Of Identity, phenomenology, and Nicomachean ethics are all examined using story lines and characters from our favorite television programme! Me am so happy! :D

There's also a book, BUFFER THE VAMPIRE SLAYER AND PHILOSOPHY, which is quite good. It covers some of the same ground, and is highly recommended.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Yup. So am I. Now I'm gonna go back and read my old Buffy comics and hell, watch episodes from seasons five and six. (Which I normally don't, mainly because I find most of the episodes during those aforementioned seasons to be depressing. )


They are somewhat depressing, really. Like I said, while I appreciate the intent of the season, I do think it went a bit too far in that direction.

Also, on a more personal level, Tara's death just hits me hard every single time, it's just heartbreaking. She was such a cool character, having grown so much over a couple seasons, and at the time she dies, she'd become the moral center of the gang.

Part of how to deal with rewatching the season is to consider each episode and its developments in the context of the larger story.

[Johnny_Luck]

What happened does not make her a lesbian! It doesn't even make her bisexual.

Honestly though I think DF is so lost in their fantasy that they won't ever understand that concept.

Also as cool as I thought Buffy was she wasn't even close to the most enjoyable character on buffy, just like Angel wasn't ever really the most likeable character on his.

Buffy Had: Faith, Xander, Giles, Kennedy, Andrew, Jenny, Cordy,

Angel Had: Lorne, Lindsey, Wesley, Cordy, Doyle, Harmony

Not saying they were unlikable or bad characters, just the people around them were so much more fun and without the supporting casts the shows would have been really, really weak.

[TCJohnson]

It's easy enough to think that from just the single panel out of context, and you're not completely wrong, but there's a bit more to it. From other things said in the scene, it's clear that Buffy was blown away by the sex, but she's struggling with what it means to her, and where things might go and what might result from that, plus - as she's done before - she expresses some insecurity as to whether she was good in bed.

Like I said, part of why I love this issue is that it brings in the inner toil and interpersonal angst which, much as it drives some up the wall, is really an essential component of Buffy the character and BUFFY the series.

So, do you think this makes her bisexual?

That is one thing I am having a problem with some arguements. Like you said before, there are situations that can cause people to have sex with people they would not ordinarily be attracted to. Long stints in prison, for example, where you have no contact with the opposite sex.

While I don't have a problem with her being bisexual, it just bothers me that people would want to put a label on her for this one act.

[beetlebum]

You know, going back to how Buffy's likability, I have always wondered why she inspires so much contumelious hatred. I've always wanted to posit that question, esp. in Rumbles where some people have made it a sport to bring her down.

But I have not, due to the fact that the thread will descend into flames faster than you can say "All avoidy."

And that's the main reason why I rarely ever post there. I just find the hatred to be arbitrary, as well as just plain odd. It's almost as if they are projecting something unto her, and it may be a tell tale sign of something deeper.

Or it could be that they just, really, really hate her.

Whatever it is, I just view the emotions that Buffy inspires as a testament to her status as not just a pop culture icon, but maybe, our very own version of folklore as well.

[Johnny_Luck]

You know, going back to how Buffy's likability, I have always wondered why she inspires so much contumelious hatred. I've always wanted to posit that question, esp. in Rumbles where some people have made it a sport to bring her down.

But I have not, due to the fact that the thread will descend into flames faster than you can say "All avoidy."

And that's the main reason why I rarely ever post there. I just find the hatred to be arbitrary, as well as just plain odd. It's almost as if they are projecting something unto her, and it may be a tell tale sign of something deeper.

Or it could be that they just, really, really hate her.

Whatever it is, I just view the emotions that Buffy inspires as a testament to her status as not just a pop culture icon, but maybe, our very own version of folklore as well.

She definately is not the most likable human being out there, like I said when I edited my thread above, there were a lot better and more characters who were likable and fun to latch onto than Buffy, but that doesn't mean I think she was completely unlikable.

I just never watched the show with the intention of watching it just for her, while there are times were with the other characters I listed I could continue on through a bad episode just because they were good in it.

[diana_fan]

Well, what I wrote was what you were saying, essentially. I didn't think it was what you were really intending to say, though, which is why I pointed it out.

My bad. :(


Well, certianly Buffy's current sexual activities aren't required for her to be a "regular girl", but they also aren't a contraindication.

No. And I did not mean to imply that it was.

I get that you think this development is completely out of character for Buffy, but I honestly don't understand either how or why you feel that way, and I don't think you're being clear at all about that. I have to wonder, given your admitting that you are taking this rather too personally, if somehow this latest issue's revelations just don't jibe with your own fantasy identification with the character. I consider this development completely in keeping with the character's established personality and actions, but I'd be interested in reading more clearly why you feel this isn't the case.

While I will disagree with you that it is out of character, I will also accept the idea that maybe I am too deep in fantasy with this particular character.

Buffy was DESPERATELY in love with Angel. So in love, in fact, that she had him drink from her (the second most erotic moment of the series, IMO). And this is part of the reason I don't accept the Spike relationship: Her love for Angel was so strong, so full, so true. She goes from Angel to Spike? Then, years later, to a woman?

When did this happen? How did it happen? I mean, it effectively comes off as "This chick's around, let's get it on!" That's not the Buffy Summers I know and love. But let me re-state: I loathed S6, and stopped watching S7 soon after the premier. I do NOT consider those seasons to be part of the show. For me, Buffy the Vampire Slayer ended with her death in "The Gift".

Maybe I need to re-watch the series. Maybe I need to re-evaluate the character. I'm open to those ideas. I am. But the idea that Buffy, who had previously only shown heterosexual interests, who had a best friend who was gay, who hung with not one, but two Slayers who were incredibly hot, and never showed the slightest bit of sexual interest in either, that she would suddenly say to herself: Well, let's have a good time with this Asian girl. That's upsetting to me.

And more than upsetting in the sense that Buffy is all of a sudden bi-sexual. Here's a girl in her care, essentially. She's, for all intents and purposes, an underling. And Buffy is shagging her?!

It's all kinds of wrong. And I truly, honestly, deeply don't feel that it something Buffy would do. She's supposed to be a heroine. Yes, she is flawed and troubled. But she's a heroine. And she takes a girl "in her employ" and gets funky with her? It makes me sad.

When all is said and done, maybe you are right. Maybe I believe too much in the character. Maybe I make her out to be a goddess when she is actually a person. It wouldn't be the first time, let me tell you. But dammit, I expect Buffy to be written better. I expect her to live up to a standard, a standard that doesn't include shagging underlings, or having lesbian "experiments" just because no guys are around.

I mean, I'm hard up lately, and I'm not just jumping on the nearest guy around. Why would Buffy? There is absolutely nothing *wrong* with what she did. But I just don't get WHY she did it! That's my issue.

Why?

I guess that's all I'm asking, in the end.

[Starleafgirl]

How about most of the female characters in comics?

Selina Kyle, Sue Richards, Ororo, Dinah Lance (when written by Gail and Dixon, at least)... then there's Wonder Woman.

And this is just sticking to superhero comics, of course. There are lot of interesting, straight women in other sorts of comics, too.

Most female characters in comics don't meet my standards. Especially all the T&A showpieces. All the ones you've listed are great; the first three are among my favorites, even if my love for them isn't as great as for the Buffster. Buffymeister. Other lame nicknames. Admittedly, I don't generally pay much attention outside of the superhero realm usually.

I wasn't sure if the ones you've listed had eve