WTF?!?! Buffy #12 [SPOILERS}

[diana_fan]

Umm ... WHAT?!

No, just no. I get the idea of experimenting and everything. I do. But NO! Dammit, this make me mad. i have absolutely nothing against lesbians or bi-sexuals or gay men. But this pisses me the hell off.

Buffy would NEVER do that! NEVER! She's never really showed interest in women. And suddenly she is fucking a woman?! How the HELL did that happen?

Ugh.

[Jack Zodiac]

How the HELL did that happen?

My birthday wish came true! :D It only took... eight years!

[Johnny_Luck]

Have you been reading the series at all? Have you watched Buffy and more importantly the way she acts from season 6-on

This is exactly like something she would do. Feeling alone in the world and taking advantage of the people around her in attempt to try and make herself feel better about the way things are. As great a hero Buffy is she uses and abuses the people around her when she feels the need to.

[Evan Waters]

You would just despise TORCHWOOD, I can tell.

[diana_fan]

Have you been reading the series at all? Have you watched Buffy and more importantly the way she acts from season 6-on

I hate S6+, but that is beyond the point.

This is exactly like something she would do. Feeling alone in the world and taking advantage of the people around her in attempt to try and make herself feel better about the way things are. As great a hero Buffy is she uses and abuses the people around her when she feels the need to.

Are you kidding me?!

No way. No fucking way.,

[Johnny_Luck]

I hate S6+, but that is beyond the point.



Are you kidding me?!

No way. No fucking way.,

Um yes way, just watch the show.

and Season 6 and Season 7(more so season 7) made up for how horrid season 4 and 5 were. Season 6 was a pretty good season after two horrid ones and season 7 redeemed Buffy as a show after they tried to end it at the horrible season 5 stuff.

[Linkara]

Umm ... WHAT?!

No, just no. I get the idea of experimenting and everything. I do. But NO! Dammit, this make me mad. i have absolutely nothing against lesbians or bi-sexuals or gay men. But this pisses me the hell off.

Buffy would NEVER do that! NEVER! She's never really showed interest in women. And suddenly she is fucking a woman?! How the HELL did that happen?

Ugh.

Whedon explains it here:

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=149216

He states she isn't gay.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Isn´t season 8 being written by Joss?
If there´s anyone who knows Buffy, it´s him.

Although I´,m pretty sure there were a few times in the tv series when she acted with some disgust at the thought of doing it with another woman...

Meh.
this will just help further the belief most guys already have that any woman is 2 mugs of beer away from a lesbian episode....

[diana_fan]

Whedon explains it here:

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=149216

He states she isn't gay.

Yes, she just FUCKED A WOMAN!

Good for her. She experimented. I'm happy for her.


Now explain to me how Buffy screwing a woman is not out of character?!

[Jack Zodiac]

Well, there's the fact that Joss Whedon created the character, dictated this, and wrote a lesbian sexual experience for his character, thus making it in-character.

[Johnny_Luck]

Yes, she just FUCKED A WOMAN!

Good for her. She experimented. I'm happy for her.


Now explain to me how Buffy screwing a woman is not out of character?!

I did and he did in the interview as well.

Re-read the earlier issues of Season 8 and look back at how she treated the people around her in her depressed times(if you want to ignore how she acted in season 6 and 7 it doesn't matter she was still written that way, your dislike for it there doesn't mean it was out of character and it help support whats happening here, because she was in character then and she is now) also if you want to pretend all the season 6 and somewhat season 7 stuff didn't happen just look at season 2, its opening episode alone is a great example or even some of the later episodes, she slept with angel not just because she cared for him but because of the whole situation that was happening around her, being upset and depressed. (Leaving her friends to fend at the end of season 2 was another great example, leaving them to protect sunnydale on their own), etc.

Plus Her age its not like thats completely uncommon to try different things out, now if it happened over and over and over again I would say it was way out of character, but your faulting her for trying something once. Thats kinda silly.

[BnL]

It's definitely in character for Buffy to have sex with someone she doesn't really feel an emotional attachment to, and who she knows has feelings for, out of her own selfishness. Whether or not it's in character for that someone to be a woman is debatable. Personally, that detail in and of itself doesn't bother me. Hell, maybe she just laid there and accepted pleasure from the girl without returning the favor. It wouldn't be the first time that's happened.

The thing about this that bothers me though, is that number one, it seemed like it was probably done as a cheap stunt. And number two, it's been several years, and the writers STILL won't have Andrew come out of the damn closet. In fact, they've added in stuff that make his homosexuality deniable to those who would object. Not only that, but Lorne, one of the gayest characters to ever be on my television screen, was written to be attracted to women. That's at least twice that male homosexuality has been teased or dodged with no pay off by Whedon and co., while female homosexuality has been portrayed openly.

[Johnny_Luck]

I am sorry but I disagree with you BnL, not the buffy Part, or the Andrew part, but the Lorne part.

Just because he wore suits, and sang and did the celeb thing does not make him Gay. Andrew clearly had moments where it was obvious, However I never once in all seasons of Angel saw something that I could take as even a Hint that Lorne was gay. Flamboyant maybe but not gay.

[BnL]

Flamboyant maybe but not gay.

That's the problem. It's like they wanted all the "fun and flamboyance" of a stereotypical gay male character on the show, without having to MAKE him functionally gay. It's a cop out. And I've seen similar situations on other shows and in movies. It's extremely irritating.

[diana_fan]

She slept with a woman?!

Buffy.


It's fine. But she's Buffy! How is that all-right?!

[Johnny_Luck]

Then again I think its just as stereotypical that people think you have to be gay in order to be the way that Lorne was and I don't think that is the case.

[Johnny_Luck]

She slept with a woman?!

Buffy.


It's fine. But she's Buffy! How is that all-right?!

Go to bed and ignore the issue, I mean it looks like you can ignore the explanations that tell you why it is and why its in character easy enough even if they are explained to you by multiple people, so why not just continue with your ignoring people but instead of people just ignore the issue.

Other than shes at the age where experiments are known to happen and it fits with the way she deals with situations, it seems like no matter what explanation you get you won't be happy with it. God could come from the heavens and tell you why it fits and that everything is okay and you probably still ask the same question hoping to get an answer that aligns with what you want rather then the truth which is what you are getting.

I mean I even gave you plenty of examples in her history to look upon. If you ask the same question 3 times and get the same answer 3 times then it doesn't mean the answer will change in time number 4. It means that the answer and thats the way it is, you obviously don't like it, that's okay, but that doesn't mean it doesn't fit with how Buffy is and how Buffy Uses people.

You can ask the same question over and over hoping someone other than myself, Joss Himself and the others in this thread will come along and give you another answer I really don't think its going to happen and the possibility of annoying people is there, just to let you know.

[BnL]

Then again I think its just as stereotypical that people think you have to be gay in order to be the way that Lorne was and I don't think that is the case.

The man routinely referrs to Angel with cute little pet names like "sweetie" or "honey." He sings showtunes. He wears lipstick, and just generally looks flamboyant and effeminate. He has effeminate vocal inflections. That's just the stuff I can think of off the top of my head. Separately, these things wouldn't amount to much. But instead, they combined all these traits into one character. The guy was written as a stereotypical gay man. I saw him on screen for the first time and thought, hmm, that's interesting, a friendly gay demon. I was sure it was just a matter of time before they had him admit his feelings for Angel, after seeing him flirt with him constantly for so long. Then they had him acting like he liked pussy.

Fuck that.

It was a total cop out.

[Ian Boothby]

The man routinely referrs to Angel with cute little pet names like "sweetie" or "honey." He sings showtunes. He wears lipstick, and just generally looks flamboyant and effeminate. He has effeminate vocal inflections. That's just the stuff I can think of off the top of my head. Separately, these things wouldn't amount to much. But instead, they combined all these traits into one character. The guy was written as a stereotypical gay man. I saw him on screen for the first time and thought, hmm, that's interesting, a friendly gay demon. I was sure it was just a matter of time before they had him admit his feelings for Angel, after seeing him flirt with him constantly for so long. Then they had him acting like he liked pussy.

Fuck that.

It was a total cop out.


He's a demon who's head can be removed and put back on. Normal rules don't apply.

[BnL]

He's a demon who's head can be removed and put back on. Normal rules don't apply.

He's a character written by people who live in the REAL world, in which normal rules DO apply, and they knew exactly what they were doing when they created Lorne. It's a lame excuse to say that he's not written as a gay male stereotype just because he's a demon. The writers don't live in that fictional world, they live in THIS world, where giving a character those character traits means something.

The same excuse is used for a character like Roger from American Dad. Sure, he's a exact caricature of Paul Lynde's persona, but you see, he's an ALIEN. So normal rules don't APPLY. See, we just want the fun energy that a flamboyantly gay personality would add to the show, without actually having to commit to making him gay.

It's exploitative, and it's a cop out. No amount of trying to explain it away will change the fact that characters like these are KNOWINGLY created with flamboyant gay male personalities by the creators. Because that's entertaining and FUN. But that's the only aspect they're interested in exploiting, so they portray them as being attracted to women. It's bullshit.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Strange, Lorne never struck me as being gay either.
He was a bit sophisticated and charming and all that stuff but I just attributed it to his supernatural nature.

It´s like that singing demon in the musical episode of Buffy. He too shared a lot of traits with Lorne but you had no doubt about his sexual inclination.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Gah! Forum´s acting up!

Lesbian Buffy must have messed with its cogs.

[Johnny_Luck]

Strange, Lorne never struck me as being gay either.
He was a bit sophisticated and charming and all that stuff but I just attributed it to his supernatural nature.

It´s like that singing demon in the musical episode of Buffy. He too shared a lot of traits with Lorne but you had no doubt about his sexual inclination.

Yeah I don't think giving people pet names makes you gay as then there probably be a hell of a lot more lesbians out there then we have, nor does singing music and sharing your feelings make you gay either.

The lip-stick thing fit his demon personaility though so yeah that is a valid excuse.

I sorry but everything combined still doesn't add up to closet gay to me.

and the Alien from AD is clearly a closet gay his voice and his behavior say so, its not even remotely close to how Lorne was written or acted though.

[Yoda]

Two of the four people she's slept with technically are dead and reanimated by demons... But you have a problem with a girl?

Her actions are in character. I'd try to explain it, but read Joss's interviews, and also go to the independent forum and read JeffreyWKramer's posts. He explains it very clearly there also. And she's not gay. She just was lonely and Satsu was available and in love with her. It's not that different than the situation with Spike.

Plus, that issue was excellent! I was dying when Xander and Andrew walked in. "My Eye! My Beautiful Burning Eye!"

[Alan Lynch]

I haven't read the issue, but I certainly don't see it as being out of character. I mean Buffy's always been kind of an idiot when it comes to sex. I can absolutely see her experimenting like this just because she's on a bit of a downer - much more out of character, for me, would be jumping on someone like Xander.

[Gilda Dent]

Wait a minute . . . I'm only about a third of the way through Angel season 2, but dear lord, if Lorne is the demon who runs the nightclub, writing him as being straight is really, really ignoring what was going on in those early episodes. He's openly flirting with Angel every time they show them together. He isn't just written as gay, he's such a flamer he'd have to avoid dry brush in the summertime out of risk of starting brush fires.

Not having read the issue in question (I'm waiting for the trade) I can't comment on the execution, but Buffy turning to someone convenient for sex to push away the loneliness is exactly in character for her. This is a woman who had sex with a soulless monster because he was convenient, using him like an animal and then throwing him away when she was no longer interested.

A human woman would be perfectly in line with the way her character was developed in the TV show, and a hell of a lot more appropriate than pre-soul Spike.

[ForeverTaskmaster]

So what's next ? Buffy doing Faith ?

[BnL]

Wait a minute . . . I'm only about a third of the way through Angel season 2, but dear lord, if Lorne is the demon who runs the nightclub, writing him as being straight is really, really ignoring what was going on in those early episodes. He's openly flirting with Angel every time they show them together. He isn't just written as gay, he's such a flamer he'd have to avoid dry brush in the summertime out of risk of starting brush fires.

LOL! Yep, he's the one I'm referring to.

[Corrina]

Well, there's the fact that Joss Whedon created the character, dictated this, and wrote a lesbian sexual experience for his character, thus making it in-character.

That doesn't mean it's not bad writing, though.

I've been reading Season 8 and I think there's a lot of bad writing in there to go around, not just on this issue. I think he's retreading a lot of the same ground from Season 6, especially with Dawn, I think Xander's new 'job' makes little sense, and I think this particular element wasn't set up emotionally that well.

*And I did think most of the personal decisions in Season 6 worked on Buffy's part--though I didn't really buy Willow's whole "I'm an addict" thing.

Now, I have no personal experience in this manner but, given all past information, Buffy just doesn't view women in a sexual manner. If you're going to have a fictional character make a decision like this, then I think you have to set it up better than "Buffy is using someone because she's having a tough time." Because there are so many other ways to impose upon this girl's love for her and make bad decisions without somehow flipping a switch in Buffy's head and thinking "oh, hey, girls are good now."

But, as I said, I have a ton of problems with Season 8 anyway. This is just one example of a WTF in these issues. It feels off to me, character-wise and plot-wise and just because Whedon is the creator doesn't mean he's not capable of bad writing.

See: Laurell K. Hamilton. (Though, no, it's not even CLOSE to that bad.)

[AllisterH]

Two of the four people she's slept with technically are dead and reanimated by demons... But you have a problem with a girl?



I was under the impression Buffy had slept with six people including this new girl?

Angel, Parker, Riley, Spike, The Immortal and now this female Slayer.

[BnL]

I was under the impression Buffy had slept with six people including this new girl?

Angel, Parker, Riley, Spike, The Immortal and now this female Slayer.

I think the situation with the Immortal was revealed to be a ruse the scoobies used to throw off their enemies, and they even used a decoy Buffy for the operation.

[diana_fan]

I don't care what Whedon says.

I've dropped the book. I dropped the show when it got ugly in S6-S7, and this book is no better, honestly.

If this is their idea of Buffy, then I am OBVIOUSLY out of the loop.

[saintsaucey]

Wow I'm sorry you are so close minded about this/ I personally don't see it as bad writing or out of character. It's like people have been saying. Buffy is one of the most selfish characters in the history of television/ Stick her along side Luke from episode four and Anakin from the episode two and three and you have a trifecta of selfishness.

I can't believe the people who say this series has bad writing. I've been hooked since the second issue. Season three through seven of Buffy equal great television.

[Alan Lynch]

For the most part I hated every season of Buffy after the third, and I'm loving the comic so far. I'm still a bit fuzzy on the whole arc, and I think the idea of all those Slayers remains awful but it's been a lot of fun for me. Worryingly though it's the standalone issues that have stood out so far - which was much the same problem I had with all those other seasons they served up on TV. But I'll be sticking around for as long as the really good outweighs the "meh".

[Typo Lad]

I don't care what Whedon says.
If this is their idea of Buffy, then I am OBVIOUSLY out of the loop.

You're well off then, as he's the originator of the character. If you can't agree with the creator's view, it's time to ship off.

Which I've done more than once.

[diana_fan]

I'm closed minded?!

No.

[Typo Lad]

No offence Diana, but you are being close-minded in a sense. Not in the sense that you are a bigot, but in the sense that you havbe a very strong vision of the character in your head and you're going to leave if you feel the book does not reflect that vision.

Personally? Not seeing that as a bad thing. I've left multiple comics because I felt the creators weren't being "true" to how I saw the character.

[Alan Lynch]

I'm closed minded?!

No.
For better or worse, when it comes to Buffy's experimentation you evidently are. You're not willing to entertain for a second that this experimentation might be in character for Buffy - bear in mind here that I haven't seen how it plays out yet, I just don't have a problem with it based on what I know of her already.

How many people said Willow's lesbianism was wildly out of character? I bet it was a lot.

[Teh m0nk3y]

For better or worse, when it comes to Buffy's experimentation you evidently are. You're not willing to entertain for a second that this experimentation might be in character for Buffy - bear in mind here that I haven't seen how it plays out yet, I just don't have a problem with it based on what I know of her already.

How many people said Willow's lesbianism was wildly out of character? I bet it was a lot.

Oh, the hordes of Willow fanboys made such a noise that a disturbance in the force was felt far far into the galaxy. Then it died out and was instantly replaced with the typical fascination that heterosexual boys have for lesbians in general.

[Typo Lad]

Oh, the hordes of Willow fanboys made such a noise that a disturbance in the force was felt far far into the galaxy. Then it died out and was instantly replaced with the typical fascination that heterosexual boys have for lesbians in general.
"Oh my G-d! Women who want nothing to do with me... and this time it's not because of any glaring personal flaws on my part. That's hawt."

[diana_fan]

No offence Diana, but you are being close-minded in a sense. Not in the sense that you are a bigot, but in the sense that you havbe a very strong vision of the character in your head and you're going to leave if you feel the book does not reflect that vision.

Personally? Not seeing that as a bad thing. I've left multiple comics because I felt the creators weren't being "true" to how I saw the character.

If Judd Winick had written this, people would be up in arms. Let's put Buffy together with some hot Asian chick! Oooh!

But because Whedon backs it, we're all fine with it? No. I'm not fine with it at all. Just as I was not fine with S6 or S7. But, apparently, others were. They had no problem with "Magic as crack" or "Buffy raped" or any of the "wonderful" Andrew moments.

But I ABSOLUTELY did. I hated it. There's a reason why I have S1-S5 on DVD, and I don't have S6 or S7. I KNEW S8 was a mistake. I knew it. And now they've proven it to me.

And Meltzer is writing a future arc. :(

[Agent Helix]

hahahaha

I'm so glad I wandered back today in time to see this fucking trainwreck.

[Typo Lad]

But because Whedon backs it, we're all fine with it? No. I'm not fine with it at all. Just as I was not fine with S6 or S7. But, apparently, others were. They had no problem with "Magic as crack" or "Buffy raped" or any of the "wonderful" Andrew moments.

I didn't say was fine with it. I haven't read it yet, so I don't want to react. I had issues with the Buffy rape.

I just think saying you think something is our of character when the person writing it created the character is a bit... overly possessive.

[BnL]

The problem with Willow was that she staked her claim as a lesbian, rather than bisexual. She spent the entire first season nursing a crush on Xander, and then in seasons 2-4 she was in a serious relationship with Oz. A lot of fans of those pairings felt gypped, because her claiming to be a lesbian pretty much discounts those relationships. It just would have come across better if she had identified as bi, or at the very least, have a scene at some point where she explains her relationships with Xander and Oz in the context of her lesbian identification.

That situation barely registers any annoyance for me, though. I just think they wanted to go for the big "statement" and have her go full on gay, when making her bi would have probably made more sense.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Umm ... WHAT?!

No, just no. I get the idea of experimenting and everything. I do. But NO! Dammit, this make me mad. i have absolutely nothing against lesbians or bi-sexuals or gay men. But this pisses me the hell off.

Buffy would NEVER do that! NEVER! She's never really showed interest in women. And suddenly she is fucking a woman?! How the HELL did that happen?

Ugh.

I consider it perfectly in character, as I've already noted in other BUFFY threads here at CBR.

First off, keep in mind that Buffy has, all through the show, demonstrated a tendency to turn to sex for comfort and validation. Parker, Riley, Spike... those relationships were largely about her trying to fill the hole left by Angel's departure, or to simply feel something other than emptiness and pain. And currently, it's not like there are a lot of maile choices around for Buffy. She views Giles as a father (or did until she got pissed at him re: the recent stuff w/ Faith), Xander as a brother and Andrew as... well, as Andrew. Plus the many not-very-subtle hints that Andrew is latently or closeted-gay.

Second, it's not at all unusual for people that generally regard themselves as heterosexual to engage in some same-sex activities when they find themselves in situations where they are exclusively or near-exclusively around people of the same sex. This happens in prisons (all the sex in prisons isn't rape), in the military, in same-sex academic settings, etc.

Beyond that, I think this situation has the potential to bring in one thing so far lacking from this comic. BUFFY just isn't BUFFY unless the title character is experiencing interpersonal difficulties and inner turmoil, and now we have a situation that might provide that.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Oh, the hordes of Willow fanboys made such a noise that a disturbance in the force was felt far far into the galaxy. Then it died out and was instantly replaced with the typical fascination that heterosexual boys have for lesbians in general.

You're rather ignoring the fact that a lot of the people that embraced the Willow/Tara relationship weren't het fanboys, but rather lesbian women, who felt the relationship rang very true.

[BnL]

If Judd Winick had written this, people would be up in arms. Let's put Buffy together with some hot Asian chick! Oooh!

But because Whedon backs it, we're all fine with it? No. I'm not fine with it at all. Just as I was not fine with S6 or S7. But, apparently, others were. They had no problem with "Magic as crack" or "Buffy raped" or any of the "wonderful" Andrew moments.

But I ABSOLUTELY did. I hated it. There's a reason why I have S1-S5 on DVD, and I don't have S6 or S7. I KNEW S8 was a mistake. I knew it. And now they've proven it to me.

And Meltzer is writing a future arc. :(

Both season 6 and 7 had their good episodes, but I agree they were mostly trash.

Like it or not though, those seasons are canon. Much of the stuff that makes Buffy sleeping with this chick "in character" is because of her characterization in those two seasons. She's repeating the same pattern with this girl as she did with Spike. Again, I hated that relationship, and the shit with the attempted rape was total garbage. Still, it's in continuity, so I can't hold it against the writers for going with it. Personally, I would hope they'd opt in favor of making the lead heroine of the series LIKABLE again, but what do I know.

Or is your objection to this turn of events solely because Buffy is repeating her past behavior with a woman?

[JeffreyWKramer]

Both season 6 and 7 had their good episodes, but I agree they were mostly trash.

Like it or not though, those seasons are canon. Much of the stuff that makes Buffy sleeping with this chick "in character" is because of her characterization in those two seasons. She's repeating the same pattern with this girl as she did with Spike. Again, I hated that relationship, and the shit with the attempted rape was total garbage.

Although I hated Spike's attempted rape of Buffy (which he really didn't realize/intend as rape, clearly, given his own reactions after the fact) when I first saw it, it was actually an incredibly important turn for the character, as it made him realize that much as he might try to be loving and noble, his lack of a soul meant he'd always be a monster deep down, no matter how he tried. This is what led him to seek out a soul for himself, so he could be something other than a monster and possibly live up to the things he felt for Buffy.

Was it fucked up? Well, yes, but we are talking about an undead human/demon amalgam having feelings of love for, and lots of pretty rough and kinky sex with, a human woman whose job it is to kill vampires and other demons. I'd think "fucked up" would pretty much go with the territory.

[Teh m0nk3y]

You're rather ignoring the fact that a lot of the people that embraced the Willow/Tara relationship weren't het fanboys, but rather lesbian women, who felt the relationship rang very true.

Sorry, was to busy making lame joke. You're right about the Willow/Tara relationship. Though I feel that it would have been better if they had Willow written as bi, considering her past relationships with Oz and Xander.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Sorry, was to busy making lame joke. You're right about the Willow/Tara relationship. Though I feel that it would have been better if they had Willow written as bi, considering her past relationships with Oz and Xander.

The majority of women who eventually identify themselves as lesbian have a prior history of heterosexual relationships, but typically give up on men and turn to women due to really crappy results in their relationships with men. Willow saw Xander, the guy she crushed on for almost her whole life, first crush on Buffy, then get involved with a woman she and Xander used to hate together (Cordelia), then get involved with a former demon. Oz left her after cheating on her, and when he came back, his jealousy of her relationship with Tara made him lose the control he'd fought to gain for the previous several months. I'd think that might qualify.

This is, of course, in marked contrast to the typical pattern for males who identify themselves as gay, almost all of whom state that they were attracted to men from the start and always knew they were different.

[diana_fan]

I loved the Willow/Tara relationship. Not because it was "hawt" but because it was beautiful, and produced one of the most wonderful scenes in the entire show.

I wish I knew how to explain this. What would the reaction be if Superman got it on with Ollie? When Superman was stuck for a THOUSAND years warring, with Wonder Woman of all people (!), did he just say "Oh, what the hell, I'm gonna screw this chick." No. He stayed faithful to Lois. FOR A THOUSAND YEARS!

What does it say about Buffy? What does it say about her character? She's bored, so she nails the nearest warm entity? Man or woman? It's wrong x1000.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with two women loving each other. But there is something seriously wrong when one of those women is Buffy Summers. She even asks her partner to keep it under wraps.

I just don't see it. I really don't. Buffy would never do this.

[Alan Lynch]

What does it say about Buffy? What does it say about her character? She's bored, so she nails the nearest warm entity? Man or woman? It's wrong x1000.
Not when she's bored. But when she's depressed? When she feels isolated? When she desperately needs compassion and validation? She's been doing it for years, way I see it.

[Teh m0nk3y]

Not when she's bored. But when she's depressed? When she feels isolated? When she desperately needs compassion and validation? She's been doing it for years, way I see it.
Quoted for Truth

[Typo Lad]

I wish I knew how to explain this. What would the reaction be if Superman got it on with Ollie?

Fanfic hat on!

When Superman was stuck for a THOUSAND years warring, with Wonder Woman of all people (!), did he just say "Oh, what the hell, I'm gonna screw this chick." No. He stayed faithful to Lois. FOR A THOUSAND YEARS!
.

I'd give it until my wife' natural lifespan was over, plus another hundred years just in case, and then yes, yes I would hit that. Assuming I had any emotional attachment to "that".

[saintsaucey]

#1-5 Joss Whedon
#6-9 Brian K. Vaughan
#10-11 Joss Whedon
#12-15 Drew Goddard
#16-19 Joss Whedon
#20 Jeph Loeb
#21-30 A combination of Jane Espenson, Doug Petrie, Drew Greenberg, Jim Krueger and one other TBD
#31-35 Brad Meltzer (four or all five issues TBD)
#36-40 Joss Whedon
The season break down for those of you who haven't seen it.

Of course Meltzer is writing an arc. He's comic book royalty now because of Identity Crisis. Weather people liked it or not, they still bought it. He became an instant star with that book despite his having been in the business a bit before hand. No I don't know his complete history because I just got into comics when Identity Crisis came out. Meltzer is going to have to do something really bad to get him self off the lists of names editors turn to when they want something written. It's like my mom always said. When you are first starting out you do what they say but once you have your first hit you can pretty much record Mary Had A Little Lamb and people will buy it because it's got your name on it.

[Yoda]

I wish I knew how to explain this. What would the reaction be if Superman got it on with Ollie? When Superman was stuck for a THOUSAND years warring, with Wonder Woman of all people (!), did he just say "Oh, what the hell, I'm gonna screw this chick." No. He stayed faithful to Lois. FOR A THOUSAND YEARS!

That's a horrible analogy. Superman is for the most part a perfect well adjusted guy. Buffy, wonderful and fascinating character that she is, is flawed and has a lot of issues. If you see Buffy as an idealized person as Superman is, your reaction makes some sort of sense. You're ignoring a lot of her character in doing so. But she's not and has never been portrayed that way.

She knows she's using Satsu and I'm positive there will be repercussions from this going forward. If it was Judd Winick, there would be no repercussions and it would be fluff for fanboys. I have faith that Whedon is going to explore this and it's going to be great.

[BnL]

What does it say about Buffy? What does it say about her character? She's bored, so she nails the nearest warm entity? Man or woman? It's wrong x1000.

It says that she's completely unlikable as a character. That's really not news to me though. She's been unlikable for the past couple of seasons. This is just more of the same of Buffy's unlikable behavior. Hell, by season 7, I think the only character I still liked was Anya. She started out as a bit of a bitch, and she stayed that way throughout. You are missed, Anya!

[saintsaucey]

Agreed, Buffy and SMG are extremely unlikeable. I'd say Willow rather than Anya but the character of Buffy was birthed out of SMG's selfishness as an actress.

[Alan Lynch]

Agreed, Buffy and SMG are extremely unlikeable. I'd say Willow rather than Anya but the character of Buffy was birthed out of SMG's selfishness as an actress.
Eh? Sarah Michelle Gellar wasn't even the first actress in the role. And early Buffy didn't strike me as particularly selfish until Angel came back from Hell; even by the end of that season she'd come back around to being kind of likable again.

[diana_fan]

Agreed, Buffy and SMG are extremely unlikeable. I'd say Willow rather than Anya but the character of Buffy was birthed out of SMG's selfishness as an actress.

Oh for fuck's sake.

If you think that Buffy is unlikeable, then you have missed the entire point of the show. She's a god damned heroine who has given EVERYTHING to her world.

Watch the end of "Lie To Me" again. Watch "Becoming" or "Grad. Day Part 1".

And what the heck is up with the SMG hate?!

[BnL]

Eh? Sarah Michelle Gellar wasn't even the first actress in the role. And early Buffy didn't strike me as particularly selfish until Angel came back from Hell; even by the end of that season she'd come back around to being kind of likable again.

Sarah Michelle Gellar has long had a reputation for being a snob and generally icy to co-stars and others. The worst thing I've heard about her was that a few years ago, it was arranged for a terminally ill teenage fan of the show to visit the set of Buffy and meet the cast. Everyone was very sweet and gracious, except for Gellar, who completely snubbed the kid and refused to meet with them.

[BnL]

Oh for fuck's sake.

If you think that Buffy is unlikeable, then you have missed the entire point of the show. She's a god damned heroine who has given EVERYTHING to her world.

Watch the end of "Lie To Me" again. Watch "Becoming" or "Grad. Day Part 1".

And what the heck is up with the SMG hate?!

She's sacrificed a lot, but that doesn't necessarily make her likable. Not for the past few seasons, at least. Lots of shitty behavior tends to counteract that.

[diana_fan]

Sarah Michelle Gellar has long had a reputation for being a snob and generally icy to co-stars and others. The worst thing I've heard about her was that a few years ago, it was arranged for a terminally ill teenage fan of the show to visit the set of Buffy and meet the cast. Everyone was very sweet and gracious, except for Gellar, who completely snubbed the kid and refused to meet with them.

Total, utter BS.

And you might want to actually, you know, MEET her, as opposed to hearing stuff on the Internet.

[Teh m0nk3y]

To be honest, the last couple of seasons of the tv show I was mainly watching it for Willow, Xander, Anya and Giles.

[Corrina]

Not when she's bored. But when she's depressed? When she feels isolated? When she desperately needs compassion and validation? She's been doing it for years, way I see it.

Yes, that's pretty much my problem with the whole storyline. I've been there done that with Season 6 (and, really, so has Joss) and the flow from the end of Season 7 to this one is backward is for me.

Buffy isn't moving forward emotionally. And yet the best part of the series itself is watching her grow and move forward. After Season 1, she respected her powers. After season two, she'd accepter her responsibility to the world so much (which she'd been fighting against) that she did what she did to Angelus.

After season three, she faced down her mirror image and came out stronger.

Season four moved them into college and young adulted, with some backsliding, which made since, for Buffy as well.

Season five is when she became an adult and took care of her sister and the rest of the family.

Season six took her to a bad place because she'd been to heaven and now she was back trying to be perfect in an imperfect world, mostly.

Season Seven showed growth again as she took control, cleaned up the emotional mess with Spike, and took the battle to the First.

This season eight isn't a new thing, some new element to go over again, it's Buffy as she was emotionally back in Season 6. I'd like to see her making a whole DIFFERENT set of mistakes, not rehashing old ones.

Basically....

Bored now.

[Corrina]

Oh, just wanted to add that I have a friend who was in charge of the publicity for "Buffy," the show.

She had some interesting things to say about everyone. She did agree that SMG is a bit controlled and intense and not very likeable, but she said the Geller was always very professional and on-time and the publicity group never had any problems or complaints about her.

The other women were fine, she said, except that they tended to fight over who should be getting more publicity and push from the network. She also thought Nick Brandon was a nice guy but he, sadly, has a drinking problem.

And ASH and James Marstars were 'total, total sweethearts.'

[PatrickG]

So what's next ? Buffy doing Faith ?

They did everything but in S3...

And as Joss has noted, Buffy's not gay, just needy. And who wouldn't be in her shoes?

She was empowered by an ancient cult of men that hid behind teenage girls who died like flies. She's imbued with dark magic. She likes shoes and shopping and figure skating and ponies but can't have a normal life and is convinced bad things happen to people she cares about, both as a product of her parents' divorce and everything since. She spent time in a mental institution and had to go to the literally most hellish high school in the world.

And the early issues coupled with some subtext from the show indicates she has the hots for guys like Xander and a variety of fairly ordinary guys but she's got this complex where she thinks she'll damage them. (Go back and watch "Never Kill a Boy on the First Date"; she's into nerdy, average guys but is terrified of hurting them. And has a history of hurting them.) And look at her dream in #2 where she wants to sleep with Xander but is scared of knocking his head off.

So when she's having a Pon Farr moment, she boinks anybody around with super-powers. Currently, the closest person in proximity was a woman. But Buffy would have bumped uglies with a Polgara demon if Satsu weren't around. Which kinda makes you feel for Satsu.

[BnL]

Total, utter BS.

And you might want to actually, you know, MEET her, as opposed to hearing stuff on the Internet.

You're taking this whole thing WAY too personally.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I loved the Willow/Tara relationship. Not because it was "hawt" but because it was beautiful, and produced one of the most wonderful scenes in the entire show.

I wish I knew how to explain this. What would the reaction be if Superman got it on with Ollie? When Superman was stuck for a THOUSAND years warring, with Wonder Woman of all people (!), did he just say "Oh, what the hell, I'm gonna screw this chick." No. He stayed faithful to Lois. FOR A THOUSAND YEARS!

What does it say about Buffy? What does it say about her character?

What it says to me is that she's written a little closer to an actual human being than is usually the case with Superman.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with two women loving each other. But there is something seriously wrong when one of those women is Buffy Summers. She even asks her partner to keep it under wraps.
First off, Buffy has a history of hiding relationships. She did that when Angel returned in Season 3. She hid her relationship with Spike for a long time.

Second, this may reflect her trying to sort out what this new development means, as well as worrying how the relationship might create an impression of favoritism to the Slayerettes.

I just don't see it. I really don't. Buffy would never do this.

To me, it rings completely true, both psychologically and given Buffy's history, current situation and past characterization. Unlike you, I don't find Season 6 to be bad in terms of the character stuff. Not with Buffy, anyhow. Giles' leaving the way he did, that I have a problem with, and I think the season stayed too dark too long for its own good that season, but it is melodrama, and it works on a "darkest before the dawn" way if one considers the metacontext of the entire Seasons 1-7 as one story.

[JeffreyWKramer]

The season break down for those of you who haven't seen it.

Of course Meltzer is writing an arc. He's comic book royalty now because of Identity Crisis. Weather people liked it or not, they still bought it. He became an instant star with that book despite his having been in the business a bit before hand. No I don't know his complete history because I just got into comics when Identity Crisis came out. Meltzer is going to have to do something really bad to get him self off the lists of names editors turn to when they want something written.

I'm not as worried as I would normally be about Meltzer wirting something I enjoy, because Whedon is taking a very hands-on approach, and I trust he's not going to let Meltzer get too far afield of his own vision.

[beetlebum]

Interesting study about bi-sexuality and women (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080116080306.htm)

Apparently, for most, it's not a transitional phase. There are quite a few women out there who can remain bi-sexual and not become full out lesbians.

As for me, I didn't discover I was bi-sexual until about two years ago. It took having a crush on two women at my former job (one of whom I no longer like, due to her incompetency) and realizing that my visceral dislike of the Izzie/Alex relationship on Grey's Anatomy was partly due to the fact that I wanted to be the one in the on call room with Isobel Stevens. I was in denial about the state of my sexuality for quite some time. That was mostly due to societal pressures, as well as the pressures imposed upon me by evangelical and ecumenical bodies that were more utopian in their ideals, as opposed to compromising and ceding that some things may be positive. Eventually, overtime, my sexuality was pried out of me, and now I am comfortable with being who I really am.

If there is anything about Buffy's affair that I reject, it's her reciprocal pattern of using people to fill that void inside of her, both figuratively and literally. But, as has been noted by others, if we were to go by empiricism, this incident is not incongruous for her. A poster on another forum made an interesting observation when they remarked that Buffy is going from "cookie dough" to "flour."

Meaning? They felt that Buffy was regressing, at least emotionally, due to this affair. I'm not so sure I can agree with that statement entirely, but I do harbor some sympathy for it. I just hope that one of these days, Joss finally lets her mature and be happy.

As I've said before, there is no pure speech, just speech that spills out and alters the world. Directive, commissive, and all other forms of illocutionary intent may have intended one thing, but the perlocutionary effect is often transposed by the listener (intended or not) and produces unintended consequences. A clarification is needed.

[PatrickG]

Incidentally, though, I'm kinda hoping that Season 8 eventually pushes these characters back into secret identities, away from being authority figures and refocuses the series on a the classic Scoobies with an addition or two.

I think casting Buffy and her friends as Authority figures rather than rebel outsiders chafed a bit and made them less likable. I have trouble reconciling big sister Buffy or General Buffy with the girl from the early seasons. I have trouble reconciling order barking Xander or magic guru Willow with slacker Xander and sheepish but adorable Willow. I have trouble reconciling Giles the voice of midguided authority with Giles the caring but bookish guy who kept bucking the system.

IMO, what would help a lot is to come up with a new post-Watcher's Council, post-High School status quo where these characters have other people to answer to, other people to rebel against and authority figures who create obstacles for them rather than being the authority figures.

We need a Snyder, a Mayor, a Watcher's Council, a Sunnydale PD.

Give the characters bosses. Place them in a (more) normal social setting. Bring back some of the allegory.

Buffy is better disobeying orders for the right reasons than GIVING orders for the right reasons.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Sarah Michelle Gellar has long had a reputation for being a snob and generally icy to co-stars and others.

As far as I can tell, that comes more from fan impression than from the professionals. Amber Benson, Anthony Stewart Head and James Marsters have never said anything but positive about her that I've seen, and Joss praises the hell out of her in lots of interviews, commentaries, etc.

She appears to me to be is a very private person who, especially since getting married, puts a priority on her marriage and on having a life outside her work, and she is also very concerned about not sticking to one thing until it's driven into the ground. In other words, she has her own ideas about who she wants to be and what she wants to do, and some fans can't stand that she isn't interested in catering to them.

[JKCarrier]

I just don't see it. I really don't. Buffy would never do this.

Because Buffy always shows so much good judgement and foresight in her choice of bed partners. It's not like every single romantic relationship she's had has been a flaming trainwreck or anything. Oh, wait...

[PatrickG]

This is, of course, in marked contrast to the typical pattern for males who identify themselves as gay, almost all of whom state that they were attracted to men from the start and always knew they were different.

I had a gay professor whose first crush was apparently Mighty Mouse. He confessed to a few of his students that he used to have Mighty Mouse sheets and that he'd punch the pictures of Mighty Mouse's girlfriend out of jealousy as a small child.

If I ever got to write anything Buffy-ish, I'd have to use that somehow. It's just too precious an idea.

[Puma]

I am really not at all surprised by this development. Buffy is incredibly isolated from other people, much of this is due to her being a slayer- even with hundreds now she is still THE Slayer. She went through her development alone, her friends and watcher tried to help but she, like the rest of us, had to work out who she was herself. I think it can be inferred that she feels that everyone she has been close to has been hurt, killed, or is in exile from her, due to her being the slayer. Her relationships have been dysfunctional. Yet she still needs to feel and to have a connection with other people. She is faced with a young woman who professes to love her so she selfishly embraces the emotion even when its in a female package just to feel the connection with another person. I think it is the first step towards healing.

[beetlebum]

I don't get the Sarah Michelle Gellar hatred either. If you dislike her so much, wouldn't that ruin the show for you? As for Buffy being selfish, in "Becoming" she sacrifices the man she loved to save a world that treats her like s****. And in "The Gift" she sacrifices herself, for crying out loud.

I don't like Ellen Pompeo ( it's not that I have a problem with her particularly, it's just that her acting is so bad it leaves me in stitches with laughter), but that still does not prevent me from watching GA. I guess it's just a testament to the strength of the cast, both for that show and Buffy, to where people can watch it and not like the lead character. It's good writing and good acting, mate.

As for the stories about Sarah, well, no actress is perfect. If I were to use stories about things she's allegedly done on set not to like her, than I might as well not like any famous person at all.

[BnL]

Believe me, I don't care enough to hate Sarah Michelle Gellar. The times I've had problems with the show, it had nothing to do with her or her acting. I was just pointing out where some of the dislike from others is coming from, based on what I've heard over the years.

[PatrickG]

Sarah Michelle Gellar has long had a reputation for being a snob and generally icy to co-stars and others. The worst thing I've heard about her was that a few years ago, it was arranged for a terminally ill teenage fan of the show to visit the set of Buffy and meet the cast. Everyone was very sweet and gracious, except for Gellar, who completely snubbed the kid and refused to meet with them.

The "Bad Gellar" stories are as prolific as the "Bad Byrne" stories, except generally without any basis that comes from SMG herself.

For all we know, she found the situation emotionally disturbing and was crying in her trailer for the poor kid.

You could just as easily buy the rumor that she had a miscarriage because of the rigors of the show and that everybody told her to just get over it... or that she felt severely violated by the scenes with Spike but was forced to do them under contract.

From what I've seen of the woman, she's okay. Joss Whedon is my hero and I'd love to have drinks with the supporting cast because they seem like wildly entertaining and fun people. But I wouldn't say one bad word about SMG or Freddie Prinze Jr. because of any perceived or rumored friction and I do believe that every story has at least two valid sides.

[diana_fan]

What it says to me is that she's written a little closer to an actual human being than is usually the case with Superman.

But she's Buffy! She is more than just a girl, the way that Superman is more than just a man. She's Chosen.

First off, Buffy has a history of hiding relationships. She did that when Angel returned in Season 3. She hid her relationship with Spike for a long time.

Fair enough. Although I don't really accept the Spike relationship.


To me, it rings completely true, both psychologically and given Buffy's history, current situation and past characterization. Unlike you, I don't find Season 6 to be bad in terms of the character stuff. Not with Buffy, anyhow. Giles' leaving the way he did, that I have a problem with, and I think the season stayed too dark too long for its own good that season, but it is melodrama, and it works on a "darkest before the dawn" way if one considers the metacontext of the entire Seasons 1-7 as one story.

S6 was wrong on almost every level. It showed a level of hate for Buffy Summers, when the previous seasons had been about love. Tortured, crippled, horrific love -- but love nonetheless.

S6 was all about a nightmare. It was all about Buffy being degraded. She had sex in a dumpster, for god's sake. She was nearly raped. When, in previous seasons, she had grown each given year, in S6 she not only regressed, but was terribly treated.

I'm all in favor of character development. I'm all in favor of characters going through Hell to get to Heaven. What I'm not in favor of is dumpster sex. I'm not in favor of a young woman who had previously been a heroine screwing someone who was disgusting, evil. I don't hold with that. I don't see that as development. I see it as revolting.

The Buffy Summers who sacrificed herself in "The Gift", who battled Angelus and overcame the emotional terror of the situation as well as the physical, the Buffy who was a friend -- THAT Buffy wasn't the Buffy from S6.


PS: Oh, and if was unclear earlier, I'm a big fan of Meltzer. I was really looking forward to his arc. Now, I'll have to read about it.

[Sean Walsh]

This is exactly like something she would do. Feeling alone in the world and taking advantage of the people around her in attempt to try and make herself feel better about the way things are. As great a hero Buffy is she uses and abuses the people around her when she feels the need to.

You do realize the poor woman died a heroic death and was then ripped out of heaven by her friends, right?

I'd imagine that'll f a person up pretty bad.

[beetlebum]

I hated the Buffy/Spike relationship as well. It was just so self destructive, and I hated the whole "You belong in the darkness" nonsense. No, she does not. Buffy to me, is the embodiment of light, the most redeeming quality about a universe as bleak as hers. The only relationship that matches the way I feel about Buffy and Spike in terms of dislike is Logan and Veronica.

Yeah, I said it!!!!!!!!!

*puts on flame retardant gear*

You want me to explain? Do you have all of the time in the world?

Coincidentally, this is part of the reason why I stopped posting in TWoP. :p

[Alan Lynch]

Yes, that's pretty much my problem with the whole storyline. I've been there done that with Season 6 (and, really, so has Joss) and the flow from the end of Season 7 to this one is backward is for me.
I can see that. I'm more willing to let it slide because I'm enjoying this way more than I did the last 4 seasons of the show. I just think it's being executed better, with a couple of slow issues here and there.
But she's Buffy! She is more than just a girl, the way that Superman is more than just a man. She's Chosen.
Wow. I couldn't disagree more; physically Buffy's something special, but mentally? She's just a regular girl, with all the fuck-ups that entails. I seriously didn't see anything in the show to make me think anything else; I always thought that's what made the whole thing so appealing.

[jerrymcl89]

But she's Buffy! She is more than just a girl, the way that Superman is more than just a man. She's Chosen.


To me, the essence of Buffy is that she's great at being heroic, and struggles at being human. This is just more of the same. In terms of sleeping with another woman, it's not something I'd have expected her to do, but I don't think it's entirely out of left field, either. In terms of this being a bad choice because she's sleeping with someone who loves her and who she doesn't love - well, bad choices and dealing with the consequences of them are most of what her story has been about.

[Evan Waters]

From my perspective, season 6 was a very successful portrayal of ennui and alienation, things which affect a lot of people.

Problem is that sort of thing just plain isn't very fun or empowering. But I think it works on its own terms.

[diana_fan]

Wow. I couldn't disagree more; physically Buffy's something special, but mentally? She's just a regular girl, with all the fuck-ups that entails. I seriously didn't see anything in the show to make me think anything else; I always thought that's what made the whole thing so appealing.

What is Superman but physically stronger, faster, whatever-er?

Buffy is the Chosen One. She is the one person, a young girl, alone against all the demons, the vampires, the warriors of the dark side. Yes, she is just a kid, and just a high school student. But she's also The Slayer.

And since when did being a "regular girl" mean that you're likely to jump into bed with another woman?

[beetlebum]

Wow. I couldn't disagree more; physically Buffy's something special, but mentally? She's just a regular girl, with all the fuck-ups that entails. I seriously didn't see anything in the show to make me think anything else; I always thought that's what made the whole thing so appealing.

I agree with this point. And that's part of the reason why I like her so much. She has problems, and she messes things up. I.o, she's just like me. We must be careful not to project to much unto fictional characters. Doing so leads to disappointment.

[Teh m0nk3y]

What is Superman but physically stronger, faster, whatever-er?

Buffy is the Chosen One. She is the one person, a young girl, alone against all the demons, the vampires, the warriors of the dark side. Yes, she is just a kid, and just a high school student. But she's also The Slayer.

And since when did being a "regular girl" mean that you're likely to jump into bed with another woman?

I think it's the all American boyscout thing when it comes to Superman.
Buffy is not like that. She is heroic when it counts, but struggles with her life in general.

[diana_fan]

I agree with this point. And that's part of the reason why I like her so much. She has problems, and she messes things up. I.o, she's just like me. We must be careful not to project to much unto fictional characters. Doing so leads to disappointment.

Obviously, Buffy's humanity was critical to her character. She screwed up all the time, she worried about doing the right thing, she messed up her relations with her friends, all of that.

But Buffy was, at heart, a heroine and a warrior. A kid, a girl, a friend, but always The Slayer.



And I'm sorry if I seemed closed-minded. That's not at all how I want to come off. I have no problem with any kind of sexuality. People enjoy what they enjoy. Good. But Buffy Summers, totally out of the blue, being bi-sexual is just not acceptable. It's a stunt. I have no idea why they felt it necessary, but it's a stunt.

[Teh m0nk3y]

At least this one has a pulse.

[Typo Lad]

Obviously, Buffy's humanity was critical to her character. She screwed up all the time, she worried about doing the right thing, she messed up her relations with her friends, all of that.

But Buffy was, at heart, a heroine and a warrior. A kid, a girl, a friend, but always The Slayer.

Ah, see, and I see it the other way around. At her heart, Buffy always seemed to be someone who just wanted to be One of The Girls. Through the series she became the Slayer, but I think that core "Wanna be like YOU" still exists.

[Red Jack]

Whedon created Buffy.

Whedon says it's in character.

Whedon says Buffy is not gay.

Whedon says youth is for experimentation.

Whedon says there will be emotional repercussions for both ladies.

End of controversy.

[diana_fan]

At least this one has a pulse.

OK, that's funny. :)


But it also drives the point home: all of Buffy's lovers have been men. When has she shown an interest in women? All of a sudden, she's bi?!

If this were two men, the reaction would be completely different. If Xander suddenly nailed Andrew, for example, there would be outrage.

[TCJohnson]

End of controversy.

Well, beginning of controversy, but that is what makes it so great.

[TCJohnson]

If a woman has sex with a woman and then says, "Never again!" does that mean she is bi?

[beetlebum]

Obviously, Buffy's humanity was critical to her character. She screwed up all the time, she worried about doing the right thing, she messed up her relations with her friends, all of that.

But Buffy was, at heart, a heroine and a warrior. A kid, a girl, a friend, but always The Slayer.



And I'm sorry if I seemed closed-minded. That's not at all how I want to come off. I have no problem with any kind of sexuality. People enjoy what they enjoy. Good. But Buffy Summers, totally out of the blue, being bi-sexual is just not acceptable. It's a stunt. I have no idea why they felt it necessary, but it's a stunt.

Thanks for the apology. I don't think it was necessary, but it is a testament to the strength of your character. I was just baffled, because it seemed like an extreme reaction. And when you tie it together with sex......

*powder keg*

And yeah, maybe it was a stunt. Outlets that don't traditionally talk about this medium are paying attention to it. Last night, I read an article on ABC.com, and newspapers like the New York Times are doing articles about this. If any good has come out of this, it's that people who wouldn't normally talk about comics are paying attention. And things like this make can make people look in the mirror and examine attitudes towards sexuality. Either way, Joss Whedon must be happy with all of the bank he's gonna make from this. ;)

[Alan Lynch]

And I'm sorry if I seemed closed-minded. That's not at all how I want to come off. I have no problem with any kind of sexuality. People enjoy what they enjoy. Good. But Buffy Summers, totally out of the blue, being bi-sexual is just not acceptable. It's a stunt. I have no idea why they felt it necessary, but it's a stunt.
I don't think you've come across as close-minded about sexuality. A little about the character of Buffy, but that's small potatoes in the grand scheme. You're fine here, man; just a bunch of folks talking vampire slayers.
But it also drives the point home: all of Buffy's lovers have been men. When has she shown an interest in women? All of a sudden, she's bi?!
I imagine people said the same about Willow.
If this were two men, the reaction would be completely different. If Xander suddenly nailed Andrew, for example, there would be outrage.
It would depend entirely on the men in question really. Buffy has a history of using sex to make an emotional connection when she's at the end of her rope. Xander's never been that assertive, so we don't know. He's had the opportunity to experiment before and turned it down though, even if it was ages ago, so there would have to be a long setup if anyone would take it seriously. Buffy has a good few years of making bad decisions with regards to sex, and the sheer brass neck to try something as bold as this.

[diana_fan]

Thanks for the apology. I don't think it was necessary, but it is a testament to the strength of your character. I was just baffled, because it seemed like an extreme reaction. And when you tie it together with sex......

*powder keg*

And yeah, maybe it was a stunt. Outlets that don't traditionally talk about this medium are paying attention to it. Last night, I read an article on ABC.com, and newspapers like the New York Times are doing articles about this. If any good has come out of this, it's that people who wouldn't normally talk about comics are paying attention. And things like this make can make people look in the mirror and examine attitudes towards sexuality. Either way, Joss Whedon must be happy with all of the bank he's gonna make from this. ;)

But how is that different from the Batwoman thing? Everyone attacked DiDio for that (even though it was the writer who used the term "lipstick lesbian"), but this is ok?

I used to have dreams about Buffy. No, not those kinds of dreams, you pervs! I used to dream about the show. All the time. Practically every night. The show meant a lot to me. It really did. Before I was reading comics, or understood the concept of being a fanboy, I was drenched in Buffy.

I think that BnL is probably right: I'm taking this WAY too personally. Maybe I should just pop in "Lie To Me" or "Becoming" or "This Year's Girl" or "When She Was Bad" and just relax.

Joss can do whatever he wants. She is his character. So, he's free to do whatever he chooses.

It's just depressing. To me.

[jerrymcl89]

If a woman has sex with a woman and then says, "Never again!" does that mean she is bi?

If she says "Never again!" because she didn't like it, then no. Buffy certainly appeared to have liked it, though.

[JeffreyWKramer]

But she's Buffy! She is more than just a girl, the way that Superman is more than just a man. She's Chosen.

But Buffy has always been written more realistically than has Superman, and the themes of the show have always tended to be more mature and more grounded in reality than is the case with Superman.

In all likelihood, if someone with Buffy's abilities, history and mission really existed, they'd probably be a lot more like Buffy than like Superman.


Fair enough. Although I don't really accept the Spike relationship.
It's there, and part of the show, so what's to not accept?

Now, whether you like it or not is up to you, of course, but your not accepting it isn't any more relevant than whether or not I accept that it's raining. My acceptance, or lack thereof, doesn't change the fact of whatever the weather happens to be.


S6 was wrong on almost every level. It showed a level of hate for Buffy Summers, when the previous seasons had been about love. Tortured, crippled, horrific love -- but love nonetheless.

That's your opinion, and it's a fairly common one, which does suggest that Season 6 was a time when Joss and his crew were out of tune with the fanbase. That said, I don't think it's a horrible season at all. If you look at the entire run of the show as one big story, Season 6 served well the purpose of things getting really bad before they get resolved. Thematically, there were some cool things going on. It was certainly more mature, and I do agree that it probably stayed too dark too much of the time, and that this was somewhat counterproductive, but at least Joss a) tried something different, and b) had something actually in mind, instead of having no plan or goal for the series and making it just the same old thing week after week or a copy of XENA or X-FILES or some other show.

Season 6 was still about love in some ways - it was about Buffy relearning to love life after a lot of tragedy. It was about Spike figuring out what love really is. It is about what happens when some people lose love, and how some other people accept tragedy in a helpful, rather than a harmful, way. It is sometimes about how people can make bad decisions for the sake of love. Ultimately in season 6, Xander saves the world by maintaining and expressing his love for Willow. And through Seasons 6-7, Spike's redemption is fueled by love. For Buffy, the season starts with her waking up in her own grave and having to dig her way out after her friends have brought her back for mixed, but to some degree selfish, purposes, and it ends with her and Dawn in, essentially a grave, and finding her way out of there by showing trust and by recognizing that it is better for her to be there for and with another person than to stay absorbed in her own misery.

S6 was all about a nightmare. It was all about Buffy being degraded. She had sex in a dumpster, for god's sake. She was nearly raped.
There are a few times when I would agree that went too far. The scene where she and Spike had sex in the balcony of the Bronze while watching her friends down below - that was too far a departure for Buffy who had always kept her sexuality very private.

However, I also want to point out that Buffy did a lot of the degradation to herself. One theme that was explored that season is the psychological consequences of sex and of letting one's urges loose.

When, in previous seasons, she had grown each given year, in S6 she not only regressed, but was terribly treated.
She also came back from the dead. One would expect that might serve somewhat to disrupt one's foreward development, especially given that in this case, Buffy went from a place full of pain and conflict to one of peace, then got tossed back into all the pain and conflict. When under stress, people often reflexively regress. That's a basic psychological principle.

I'm all in favor of character development. I'm all in favor of characters going through Hell to get to Heaven. What I'm not in favor of is dumpster sex. I'm not in favor of a young woman who had previously been a heroine screwing someone who was disgusting, evil. I don't hold with that. I don't see that as development. I see it as revolting.
That's your choice. Lots of people find BUFFY Season 6 not to their tastes for a lot of reasons.

Keep in mind, though, at the point you are talking about, Spike wasn't exactly pure evil. He'd been rendered unable to prey on humans for a couple seasons now. He'd fought alongside Buffy repeatedly. He'd admitted his love for her, and he'd lived up to it not only by risking his life again and again, but by refusing to betray her trust while under torture and facing almost certain death.

Also, in Season 3, Buffy went right back to Angel after, as Angelus, he'd just the year before horribly tortured Giles, done huge, cruel mindgames on Buffy herself and on Willow and killed Jenny. On one level, maybe she's too forgiving, but on another, a huge theme in BUFFY is that of redemption, and Spike's story arc through seasons 5-7 is very much one of redemption and how difficult that is, how selfishness can throw one off track.

The Buffy Summers who sacrificed herself in "The Gift", who battled Angelus and overcame the emotional terror of the situation as well as the physical, the Buffy who was a friend -- THAT Buffy wasn't the Buffy from S6.

I feel strongly otherwise. She had to face having earned peace via her sacrifice, then having it pulled away. She had to face up yet again to the fact that her destiny prevented her from enjoying many things in life while requiring constant sacrifice. She had trouble dealing with these things, but in the end, she got back on track, even though the ride there wasn't smooth.

PS: Oh, and if was unclear earlier, I'm a big fan of Meltzer. I was really looking forward to his arc. Now, I'll have to read about it.
Well, once again, our tastes very much differ. I am at a loss how to understand your liking Meltzer, a guy who constantly rewrites characters to be what he wants them to be rather than going along with established characterization, while dissing Whedon, who is creating his own character. As to pointlessly dark... hello, IDENTITY CRISIS????

[JeffreyWKramer]

From my perspective, season 6 was a very successful portrayal of ennui and alienation, things which affect a lot of people.

Problem is that sort of thing just plain isn't very fun or empowering. But I think it works on its own terms.


Well put, and it particularly works well if one looks it as a phase, in the context of the entire run of the show, and where she goes from there.

[JeffreyWKramer]

And since when did being a "regular girl" mean that you're likely to jump into bed with another woman?

Lots of regular people do that. Same-sex experiences aren't exactly rare.

Really, do you really want to be arguing that someone being sexual with someone of the same gender somehow makes that person "abnormal?"

[TCJohnson]

If she says "Never again!" because she didn't like it, then no. Buffy certainly appeared to have liked it, though.

I did not read the story itself but from what Whedon says she is not completely comfortable with what she did.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I did not read the story itself but from what Whedon says she is not completely comfortable with what she did.

She clearly enjoyed it, but she's unclear what the implications mean.

And, Buffy has almost never been comfortable with what she's done sexually, and especially whenever she steps outside conventional boundaries, despite ample evidence that she's not exactly the most sexually conventional young woman in the world.

[beetlebum]

But how is that different from the Batwoman thing? Everyone attacked DiDio for that (even though it was the writer who used the term "lipstick lesbian"), but this is ok?

I used to have dreams about Buffy. No, not those kinds of dreams, you pervs! I used to dream about the show. All the time. Practically every night. The show meant a lot to me. It really did. Before I was reading comics, or understood the concept of being a fanboy, I was drenched in Buffy.

I think that BnL is probably right: I'm taking this WAY too personally. Maybe I should just pop in "Lie To Me" or "Becoming" or "This Year's Girl" or "When She Was Bad" and just relax.

Joss can do whatever he wants. She is his character. So, he's free to do whatever he chooses.

It's just depressing. To me.

That sums it up right there. Honestly, I was indifferent to the Batwoman thing. I didn't really care about whether or not Kathy Kane was gay. The only thing that I found humorous, and if not appalling, was the visceral reaction to it. Some Americans just react in the oddest ways when forced to look in the mirror and examine their views on sexuality. It's a legacy left over from the Calvinists that first settled this nation.

And, although I severely doubt that there was any pure deontological motive behind this, I am actually delighted that she, or at least Joss was open minded enough to engage in same sex experimentation.

Diana, it's okay, it really is. Just calm down, and you'll be back to enjoying Buffy in no time. ;)

[Puma]

Well put, and it particularly works well if one looks it as a phase, in the context of the entire run of the show, and where she goes from there.

Yes. I always looked at the show thusly:

Seasons 1-3: puberty, personal identity development and developing interpersonal relationships. Which works perfectly in High School because thats where most people really begin to self-identify and form significant relationships. Giles, of course, is the parental figure.
Season 4: the beginning of adulthood. Leaving the safe confines of home yet still having home to go to, still having a parent child relationship. Continuing to refine a sense of self and purpose, continuing to define relationships. Losing the dependence of parental figure(s).
Season 5: adulthood, distance from childhood, increased responsibility, acceptance of one's place in the world. This is where most of us get on with life, using what we have learned. Buffy instead gives the ultimate sacrifice, knowing it is the right thing for her. Her life ends, her development stops.
Season 6: Mid-life crisis (even in your early twenties). Severe emotional trauma. Alienation. Parental figure steps away to allow individual growth.I actually liked season 6 for looking at what happens when everyone around you is getting on with life and developing and you're in a holding pattern- stuck without a sense of purpose.
Season 7: Restored sense of self, new life. It is a different life than before but it needs to be. Buffy was stagnant, she hadn't developed since "The Gift". In a way she had to be torn down so that she could rebuild. Yes, she is harder, more guarded, but sometimes that's what life, and death, do to people.
Season 8: Buffy needs to learn to open up to the people around her again. To balance her responsibilities with her need to love and be loved. I think that is where Joss is going.

[beetlebum]

I did not read the story itself but from what Whedon says she is not completely comfortable with what she did.

Um, dude, she said "Wow." Unless "wow" now means something else, than it's clear that she enjoyed it to me! ;) :D

[Alan Lynch]

Um, dude, she said "Wow." Unless "wow" now means something else, than it's clear that she enjoyed it to me! ;) :D
She might have enjoyed the orgasm - who doesn't? - but in a wider context she can still view the whole thing as a horrible mistake.

[diana_fan]

Lots of regular people do that. Same-sex experiences aren't exactly rare.

Really, do you really want to be arguing that someone being sexual with someone of the same gender somehow makes that person "abnormal?"

That was not what I was saying. At all. Dammit, I'm not clearly expressing myself, it seems.

All I meant was that saying she's a regular girl doesn't somehow mean that she's bi-sexual. I don't for a second deny that same-sex relationships happen a lot more than we generally accept. And I have no issue with gay sex.

If I implied differently, than I apologize. I really didn't mean anything of the kind.

[beetlebum]

She might have enjoyed the orgasm - who doesn't? - but in a wider context she can still view the whole thing as a horrible mistake.

So in other words, it's no different than her previous relationships. :rolleyes:

[TCJohnson]

Um, dude, she said "Wow." Unless "wow" now means something else, than it's clear that she enjoyed it to me! ;) :D

Actually, "Wow" by itself can mean a lot of things.

I did see that page online.

http://www.newsarama.com/DarkHorsenew/Buffy/from_buffy12.jpg

The look on her face is not happiness or contentment...it's confusion.

I don't think it was "Wow, that is great!" I think that is more like, "Wow...I can't believe that just happened."

[diana_fan]

So in other words, it's no different than her previous relationships. :rolleyes:

The relationship between Buffy and Angel was pure love. True, pure love.

Yes, it turned into a nightmare. But their love was as true as it gets.

[TCJohnson]

I don't think Buffy is bisexual...and I think that is going to be a conflict in the upcoming issues.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Yes. I always looked at the show thusly:

Seasons 1-3: puberty, personal identity development and developing interpersonal relationships. Which works perfectly in High School because thats where most people really begin to self-identify and form significant relationships. Giles, of course, is the parental figure.
Season 4: the beginning of adulthood. Leaving the safe confines of home yet still having home to go to, still having a parent child relationship. Continuing to refine a sense of self and purpose, continuing to define relationships. Losing the dependence of parental figure(s).
Season 5: adulthood, distance from childhood, increased responsibility, acceptance of one's place in the world. This is where most of us get on with life, using what we have learned. Buffy instead gives the ultimate sacrifice, knowing it is the right thing for her. Her life ends, her development stops.
Season 6: Mid-life crisis (even in your early twenties). Severe emotional trauma. Alienation. Parental figure steps away to allow individual growth.I actually liked season 6 for looking at what happens when everyone around you is getting on with life and developing and you're in a holding pattern- stuck without a sense of purpose.
Season 7: Restored sense of self, new life. It is a different life than before but it needs to be. Buffy was stagnant, she hadn't developed since "The Gift". In a way she had to be torn down so that she could rebuild. Yes, she is harder, more guarded, but sometimes that's what life, and death, do to people.
Season 8: Buffy needs to learn to open up to the people around her again. To balance her responsibilities with her need to love and be loved. I think that is where Joss is going.


Excellent summary, really.

BTW, I am loving this thread. The more I watch BUFFY, the more I appreciate the depth and the many levels of the show, and it's good to discuss the show and its themes, even though we don't all agree. Really, that's part of what critical analysis is about. As it happens, I've been immersing myself pretty heavily into BUFFY media/lit crit of late, and given these matters a lot of thought of late. I'm definitely of the opinion that BUFFY transcends "mere entertainment."

A lot of Willow fans would probably hate some of what I have to say about that character's development. I like Willow quite a lot, but those that consider Willow's shift from sunniness to season 6's darkness incomprehensible are missing a hell of a lot of subtext and foreshadowing.

[Typo Lad]

Actually, "Wow" by itself can mean a lot of things.

I did see that page online.

http://www.newsarama.com/DarkHorsenew/Buffy/from_buffy12.jpg

The look on her face is not happiness or contentment...it's confusion.

I don't think it was "Wow, that is great!" I think that is more like, "Wow...I can't believe that just happened."
Sheets do not work that way!

[NickThompson]

The "Bad Gellar" stories are as prolific as the "Bad Byrne" stories, except generally without any basis that comes from SMG herself.

For all we know, she found the situation emotionally disturbing and was crying in her trailer for the poor kid.

You could just as easily buy the rumor that she had a miscarriage because of the rigors of the show and that everybody told her to just get over it... or that she felt severely violated by the scenes with Spike but was forced to do them under contract.

From what I've seen of the woman, she's okay. Joss Whedon is my hero and I'd love to have drinks with the supporting cast because they seem like wildly entertaining and fun people. But I wouldn't say one bad word about SMG or Freddie Prinze Jr. because of any perceived or rumored friction and I do believe that every story has at least two valid sides.
I think the other problem with these sort of stories is that you can't be 100% happy and lovely all the time. You could be a lovely person in your free time but a very serious and professional person when filming and not be great when people run up for photos or autographs, and you'd get a bad rep out of that.






Oddly, I never really liked Buffy as a character. She was alright, but I preferred her supporting cast.

[TCJohnson]

Sheets do not work that way!

They can when you are REALLY sweaty.

[JeffreyWKramer]

That was not what I was saying. At all. Dammit, I'm not clearly expressing myself, it seems.

Well, what I wrote was what you were saying, essentially. I didn't think it was what you were really intending to say, though, which is why I pointed it out.

All I meant was that saying she's a regular girl doesn't somehow mean that she's bi-sexual. I don't for a second deny that same-sex relationships happen a lot more than we generally accept. And I have no issue with gay sex.

If I implied differently, than I apologize. I really didn't mean anything of the kind.

Well, certianly Buffy's current sexual activities aren't required for her to be a "regular girl", but they also aren't a contraindication.

I get that you think this development is completely out of character for Buffy, but I honestly don't understand either how or why you feel that way, and I don't think you're being clear at all about that. I have to wonder, given your admitting that you are taking this rather too personally, if somehow this latest issue's revelations just don't jibe with your own fantasy identification with the character. I consider this development completely in keeping with the character's established personality and actions, but I'd be interested in reading more clearly why you feel this isn't the case.

[Starleafgirl]

Umm ... WHAT?!

No, just no. I get the idea of experimenting and everything. I do. But NO! Dammit, this make me mad. i have absolutely nothing against lesbians or bi-sexuals or gay men. But this pisses me the hell off.

Buffy would NEVER do that! NEVER! She's never really showed interest in women. And suddenly she is fucking a woman?! How the HELL did that happen?

Ugh.

I just want to start out by saying... HI d_f!!! Lol. See you've migrated over to these boards. Welcome.

Second of all, I'm not going to read all eight pages of this thread... I'm sure there are good points to be made on either side of the argument.

But I, for one, am sick and tired of all my comic book heroines turning into lesbians. I'm sick of writers like Joss Whedon and C.B. Cebulski, both of whom I adore, putting in the seeds of lesbianism where there was previously little to no evidence of it.

You could say I'm sick of it for two main reasons:
1) I'm a woman who's never considered swinging "that way." I had a lot of bi- and lesbian friends in high school, some of which weren't all that bad looking (sad to say, most of them weren't really lookers... why are all gay men hot and most lesbian women not? ;) Kidding, kidding. Just doesn't seem fair. ;D). Anyway, the point is, even so, I've never been sexually attracted to another woman, so I'd like to have at least one heroine who's as straight as I am (because that's the world view that makes the most sense to me and to which I can relate the best).
2) There are just too many lesbians and not enough gay men in comics. I demand more, well-written gay men to balance it out and better reflect reality. :rolleyes:

You can poke holes in my argument all you want, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I've admired Buffy since Season 1, watched the entire series, and though to my great dislike Buffy seemed much hornier after she came back from the dead (uh, the death where she has to crawl out of her own grave), so much so that she turned to SPIKE for comfort/angry sex, I've never seen an inkling that she might turn to a woman at some point. At least, not in the TV series; it's been sort of hinted that this would happen in "Season 8."

However, like the recent CBR article said, she does live in a castle with 500 or so girls and one guy -- and that guy, if I'm not mistaken, is Xander, with whom, as we all know, sexual tension died out Seasons ago. He's now nothing more than her straight best friend. And I'm fine with that; Xander's crush was cute but I don't think they'd make sense as a couple.

Anyway, back to the issue at hand, she's living with 500 girls and one best friend and she's always been a very open-minded person -- certainly since after she became an outcast herself for being the Slayer. She's had to learn a lot of tolerance and understanding down the road because she wants tolerance and understanding for herself.

I feel like something like this would have happened in Season 8 if there had been a TV show, anyhow, because it's the next logical step for reborn, horny Buffy looking for someone to warm her at the cold, lonely top of the Slayer chain (99% of the people she knows are female). :rolleyes: I just hope, on the TV show and in the comics, that it's nothing more than a fling... and that she's really straight... because if she's not, that would invalidate seven seasons of the TV show, in terms of relationships and such.

I say "fling" rather than "experiment" because I'm sure, to Buffy, it's serious, not just a curiosity. I'd say, if anything, Spike was the experiment... at least at first, but he grew to be more to her.

It really should go without saying, but I want nothing less than equality for bi, trans, gay, etc., people. I just can't help but feel a little disappointed that yet another writer I admire is going down this path with one of their heroines. I know I should be more open-minded about it, so I'll try to have an open mind about it and see where this is going. I just don't think it's too much to ask for a straight woman to have some straight, strong, interesting comic book women to look up to. :rolleyes:

[JeffreyWKramer]

Sheets do not work that way!

YES!

That was the one thing I most disliked about the scene - it looks like they're under opaque saran wrap or something, not sheets.

Of course, maybe they were, and the whole scene is a lot more deeply kinky than we've been told so far! ;)

[TCJohnson]

What happened does not make her a lesbian! It doesn't even make her bisexual.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Actually, "Wow" by itself can mean a lot of things.

I did see that page online.

http://www.newsarama.com/DarkHorsenew/Buffy/from_buffy12.jpg

The look on her face is not happiness or contentment...it's confusion.

I don't think it was "Wow, that is great!" I think that is more like, "Wow...I can't believe that just happened."


It's easy enough to think that from just the single panel out of context, and you're not completely wrong, but there's a bit more to it. From other things said in the scene, it's clear that Buffy was blown away by the sex, but she's struggling with what it means to her, and where things might go and what might result from that, plus - as she's done before - she expresses some insecurity as to whether she was good in bed.

Like I said, part of why I love this issue is that it brings in the inner toil and interpersonal angst which, much as it drives some up the wall, is really an essential component of Buffy the character and BUFFY the series.

[beetlebum]

Actually, "Wow" by itself can mean a lot of things.

I did see that page online.

http://www.newsarama.com/DarkHorsenew/Buffy/from_buffy12.jpg

The look on her face is not happiness or contentment...it's confusion.

I don't think it was "Wow, that is great!" I think that is more like, "Wow...I can't believe that just happened."

Illocutionary intent, perlocutionary effect.....

And besides, I was joking. :rolleyes: =p

[JeffreyWKramer]

Oddly, I never really liked Buffy as a character. She was alright, but I preferred her supporting cast.

In some ways, Buffy is a pretty hard character to like. She has some definite flaws, and is fairly complex, containing some contradictions that aren't the unrealistic type, but rather the sort that depict her as still a work in progress as a person. I don't rank her very high among my personal-favorite characters from the show, but that just reflects my own preferences about what character traits I find attractive. I think she's a great character and extremely well written, with lots of depth.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I just don't think it's too much to ask for a straight woman to have some straight, strong, interesting comic book women to look up to. :rolleyes:

How about most of the female characters in comics?

Selina Kyle, Sue Richards, Ororo, Dinah Lance (when written by Gail and Dixon, at least)... then there's Wonder Woman.

And this is just sticking to superhero comics, of course. There are lot of interesting, straight women in other sorts of comics, too.

[beetlebum]

Excellent summary, really.

BTW, I am loving this thread. The more I watch BUFFY, the more I appreciate the depth and the many levels of the show, and it's good to discuss the show and its themes, even though we don't all agree. Really, that's part of what critical analysis is about. As it happens, I've been immersing myself pretty heavily into BUFFY media/lit crit of late, and given these matters a lot of thought of late. I'm definitely of the opinion that BUFFY transcends "mere entertainment."

A lot of Willow fans would probably hate some of what I have to say about that character's development. I like Willow quite a lot, but those that consider Willow's shift from sunniness to season 6's darkness incomprehensible are missing a hell of a lot of subtext and foreshadowing.

Yup. So am I. Now I'm gonna go back and read my old Buffy comics and hell, watch episodes from seasons five and six. (Which I normally don't, mainly because I find most of the episodes during those aforementioned seasons to be depressing. )

There's even a website devoted to Buffy and philosophy. On it, Aristotle's Law Of Identity, phenomenology, and Nicomachean ethics are all examined using story lines and characters from our favorite television programme! Me am so happy! :D

[JeffreyWKramer]

There's even a website devoted to Buffy and philosophy. On it, Aristotle's Law Of Identity, phenomenology, and Nicomachean ethics are all examined using story lines and characters from our favorite television programme! Me am so happy! :D

There's also a book, BUFFER THE VAMPIRE SLAYER AND PHILOSOPHY, which is quite good. It covers some of the same ground, and is highly recommended.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Yup. So am I. Now I'm gonna go back and read my old Buffy comics and hell, watch episodes from seasons five and six. (Which I normally don't, mainly because I find most of the episodes during those aforementioned seasons to be depressing. )


They are somewhat depressing, really. Like I said, while I appreciate the intent of the season, I do think it went a bit too far in that direction.

Also, on a more personal level, Tara's death just hits me hard every single time, it's just heartbreaking. She was such a cool character, having grown so much over a couple seasons, and at the time she dies, she'd become the moral center of the gang.

Part of how to deal with rewatching the season is to consider each episode and its developments in the context of the larger story.

[Johnny_Luck]

What happened does not make her a lesbian! It doesn't even make her bisexual.

Honestly though I think DF is so lost in their fantasy that they won't ever understand that concept.

Also as cool as I thought Buffy was she wasn't even close to the most enjoyable character on buffy, just like Angel wasn't ever really the most likeable character on his.

Buffy Had: Faith, Xander, Giles, Kennedy, Andrew, Jenny, Cordy,

Angel Had: Lorne, Lindsey, Wesley, Cordy, Doyle, Harmony

Not saying they were unlikable or bad characters, just the people around them were so much more fun and without the supporting casts the shows would have been really, really weak.

[TCJohnson]

It's easy enough to think that from just the single panel out of context, and you're not completely wrong, but there's a bit more to it. From other things said in the scene, it's clear that Buffy was blown away by the sex, but she's struggling with what it means to her, and where things might go and what might result from that, plus - as she's done before - she expresses some insecurity as to whether she was good in bed.

Like I said, part of why I love this issue is that it brings in the inner toil and interpersonal angst which, much as it drives some up the wall, is really an essential component of Buffy the character and BUFFY the series.

So, do you think this makes her bisexual?

That is one thing I am having a problem with some arguements. Like you said before, there are situations that can cause people to have sex with people they would not ordinarily be attracted to. Long stints in prison, for example, where you have no contact with the opposite sex.

While I don't have a problem with her being bisexual, it just bothers me that people would want to put a label on her for this one act.

[beetlebum]

You know, going back to how Buffy's likability, I have always wondered why she inspires so much contumelious hatred. I've always wanted to posit that question, esp. in Rumbles where some people have made it a sport to bring her down.

But I have not, due to the fact that the thread will descend into flames faster than you can say "All avoidy."

And that's the main reason why I rarely ever post there. I just find the hatred to be arbitrary, as well as just plain odd. It's almost as if they are projecting something unto her, and it may be a tell tale sign of something deeper.

Or it could be that they just, really, really hate her.

Whatever it is, I just view the emotions that Buffy inspires as a testament to her status as not just a pop culture icon, but maybe, our very own version of folklore as well.

[Johnny_Luck]

You know, going back to how Buffy's likability, I have always wondered why she inspires so much contumelious hatred. I've always wanted to posit that question, esp. in Rumbles where some people have made it a sport to bring her down.

But I have not, due to the fact that the thread will descend into flames faster than you can say "All avoidy."

And that's the main reason why I rarely ever post there. I just find the hatred to be arbitrary, as well as just plain odd. It's almost as if they are projecting something unto her, and it may be a tell tale sign of something deeper.

Or it could be that they just, really, really hate her.

Whatever it is, I just view the emotions that Buffy inspires as a testament to her status as not just a pop culture icon, but maybe, our very own version of folklore as well.

She definately is not the most likable human being out there, like I said when I edited my thread above, there were a lot better and more characters who were likable and fun to latch onto than Buffy, but that doesn't mean I think she was completely unlikable.

I just never watched the show with the intention of watching it just for her, while there are times were with the other characters I listed I could continue on through a bad episode just because they were good in it.

[diana_fan]

Well, what I wrote was what you were saying, essentially. I didn't think it was what you were really intending to say, though, which is why I pointed it out.

My bad. :(


Well, certianly Buffy's current sexual activities aren't required for her to be a "regular girl", but they also aren't a contraindication.

No. And I did not mean to imply that it was.

I get that you think this development is completely out of character for Buffy, but I honestly don't understand either how or why you feel that way, and I don't think you're being clear at all about that. I have to wonder, given your admitting that you are taking this rather too personally, if somehow this latest issue's revelations just don't jibe with your own fantasy identification with the character. I consider this development completely in keeping with the character's established personality and actions, but I'd be interested in reading more clearly why you feel this isn't the case.

While I will disagree with you that it is out of character, I will also accept the idea that maybe I am too deep in fantasy with this particular character.

Buffy was DESPERATELY in love with Angel. So in love, in fact, that she had him drink from her (the second most erotic moment of the series, IMO). And this is part of the reason I don't accept the Spike relationship: Her love for Angel was so strong, so full, so true. She goes from Angel to Spike? Then, years later, to a woman?

When did this happen? How did it happen? I mean, it effectively comes off as "This chick's around, let's get it on!" That's not the Buffy Summers I know and love. But let me re-state: I loathed S6, and stopped watching S7 soon after the premier. I do NOT consider those seasons to be part of the show. For me, Buffy the Vampire Slayer ended with her death in "The Gift".

Maybe I need to re-watch the series. Maybe I need to re-evaluate the character. I'm open to those ideas. I am. But the idea that Buffy, who had previously only shown heterosexual interests, who had a best friend who was gay, who hung with not one, but two Slayers who were incredibly hot, and never showed the slightest bit of sexual interest in either, that she would suddenly say to herself: Well, let's have a good time with this Asian girl. That's upsetting to me.

And more than upsetting in the sense that Buffy is all of a sudden bi-sexual. Here's a girl in her care, essentially. She's, for all intents and purposes, an underling. And Buffy is shagging her?!

It's all kinds of wrong. And I truly, honestly, deeply don't feel that it something Buffy would do. She's supposed to be a heroine. Yes, she is flawed and troubled. But she's a heroine. And she takes a girl "in her employ" and gets funky with her? It makes me sad.

When all is said and done, maybe you are right. Maybe I believe too much in the character. Maybe I make her out to be a goddess when she is actually a person. It wouldn't be the first time, let me tell you. But dammit, I expect Buffy to be written better. I expect her to live up to a standard, a standard that doesn't include shagging underlings, or having lesbian "experiments" just because no guys are around.

I mean, I'm hard up lately, and I'm not just jumping on the nearest guy around. Why would Buffy? There is absolutely nothing *wrong* with what she did. But I just don't get WHY she did it! That's my issue.

Why?

I guess that's all I'm asking, in the end.

[Starleafgirl]

How about most of the female characters in comics?

Selina Kyle, Sue Richards, Ororo, Dinah Lance (when written by Gail and Dixon, at least)... then there's Wonder Woman.

And this is just sticking to superhero comics, of course. There are lot of interesting, straight women in other sorts of comics, too.

Most female characters in comics don't meet my standards. Especially all the T&A showpieces. All the ones you've listed are great; the first three are among my favorites, even if my love for them isn't as great as for the Buffster. Buffymeister. Other lame nicknames. Admittedly, I don't generally pay much attention outside of the superhero realm usually.

I wasn't sure if the ones you've listed had ever, ah, dabbled in their long histories, though. I have a better idea of what canon Buffy's been up to. ;) And my favorite comic book woman ever is pretty much a mystery, although she kissed one guy. :rolleyes:

Anyway, in my post, which you obviously read, I make a pretty good case for why I think this latest move IS in keeping with her character, given that she's constantly surrounded by young women, is open-minded, knows Satsu loves her, Satsu probably ain't unattractive, and -- when the pressure gets turned on [like by being a wanted international terrorist?] -- she usually turns to someone to relieve the pressure by messing around with them in bed (Remember Riley? And Spike? :p).

(I remember how Buffy and Angel began, and how their first time together was, so I don't include Angel in that list.)

I guess it's not really right of me to bring the whole comic book industry's favor of lesbians over gay men into this... and the sensationalism that's abused lesbianism in the past... and the whole bruh ha-hah about Julie Power's gay-or-not-gay moment... and the fact that Buffy's never shown even a smidgen of sexual interest in a woman before... but that's part of my world view.

I'm not going to rage against this latest development, and I might even think it makes a certain amount sense concerning the character and the way the show pushed boundaries with its characters, but that doesn't mean I have to like it or be 100% behind it, either.

I just have to say one more thing: having sex with a same sex partner doesn't make you gay or bisexual any more than having sex with a different sex partner makes you a heterosexual. Come on, people. Seriously. You can point to the sex as evidence of a person being one way or another (but you may not be correct in the end!), but a person's sexuality isn't going to be completely changed or defined just by orgasming with someone who's of a different sex than your last partner. Heck, a person might have sex with a different sex partner and figure out after a while that it's just not as enjoyable to him/her as a same sex partner. These things take time and critical examination of oneself to sort out, not a romp in the sack.

[thespianphryne]

So, do you think this makes her bisexual?

That is one thing I am having a problem with some arguements. Like you said before, there are situations that can cause people to have sex with people they would not ordinarily be attracted to. Long stints in prison, for example, where you have no contact with the opposite sex.

While I don't have a problem with her being bisexual, it just bothers me that people would want to put a label on her for this one act.

It puts her in the general vicinity of heteroflexible.


-Das

[Johnny_Luck]

DF for the millionth time having sex one time with someone of same gender does not, I repeat does not and I again repeat NOT make you Bi.

If she were to continue to have sex then you could claim that Joss is trying to make her so, but a one time thing is not irregular for people of that age and if a one time experiment makes you a whole other sexual orientation then we have a country filled with more bi-'s then you can even think of.

Sorry but it wasn't out of character just because you drew a line at where you wanted her character to be and ignore everything that came after it with the show and sorry it wasn't out of character just for the sole fact you didn't like it, but it wasn't out of character.

and I am sorry but i will repeat this yet again she has not been written as Gay and she hasn't even been written as bi yet.

[Gilda Dent]

Ah, see, and I see it the other way around. At her heart, Buffy always seemed to be someone who just wanted to be One of The Girls. Through the series she became the Slayer, but I think that core "Wanna be like YOU" still exists.

Yep.

For much of her own series, you can look at Cordelia for direct comparison. Cordelia is basically who Buffy could have become had she not had the burden of her parents' divorce and being the world's guardian against the forces of evil to contend with. A good part of the rivalry you see between the two is that they recognize each other as being so similar in so many ways, or would have been had it not been for the whole slayer thing.

[EdContradictory]

Um yes way, just watch the show.

and Season 6 and Season 7(more so season 7) made up for how horrid season 4 and 5 were. Season 6 was a pretty good season after two horrid ones and season 7 redeemed Buffy as a show after they tried to end it at the horrible season 5 stuff.

I was agreeing with you up until that last crazy sentence.

[Night Swordsman]

My bad. :(




No. And I did not mean to imply that it was.



While I will disagree with you that it is out of character, I will also accept the idea that maybe I am too deep in fantasy with this particular character.

Buffy was DESPERATELY in love with Angel. So in love, in fact, that she had him drink from her (the second most erotic moment of the series, IMO). And this is part of the reason I don't accept the Spike relationship: Her love for Angel was so strong, so full, so true. She goes from Angel to Spike? Then, years later, to a woman?

When did this happen? How did it happen? I mean, it effectively comes off as "This chick's around, let's get it on!" That's not the Buffy Summers I know and love. But let me re-state: I loathed S6, and stopped watching S7 soon after the premier. I do NOT consider those seasons to be part of the show. For me, Buffy the Vampire Slayer ended with her death in "The Gift".

Maybe I need to re-watch the series. Maybe I need to re-evaluate the character. I'm open to those ideas. I am. But the idea that Buffy, who had previously only shown heterosexual interests, who had a best friend who was gay, who hung with not one, but two Slayers who were incredibly hot, and never showed the slightest bit of sexual interest in either, that she would suddenly say to herself: Well, let's have a good time with this Asian girl. That's upsetting to me.

And more than upsetting in the sense that Buffy is all of a sudden bi-sexual. Here's a girl in her care, essentially. She's, for all intents and purposes, an underling. And Buffy is shagging her?!

It's all kinds of wrong. And I truly, honestly, deeply don't feel that it something Buffy would do. She's supposed to be a heroine. Yes, she is flawed and troubled. But she's a heroine. And she takes a girl "in her employ" and gets funky with her? It makes me sad.

When all is said and done, maybe you are right. Maybe I believe too much in the character. Maybe I make her out to be a goddess when she is actually a person. It wouldn't be the first time, let me tell you. But dammit, I expect Buffy to be written better. I expect her to live up to a standard, a standard that doesn't include shagging underlings, or having lesbian "experiments" just because no guys are around.

I mean, I'm hard up lately, and I'm not just jumping on the nearest guy around. Why would Buffy? There is absolutely nothing *wrong* with what she did. But I just don't get WHY she did it! That's my issue.

Why?

I guess that's all I'm asking, in the end.

And the sad thing is,several people ALREADY REPLIED to YOU ABOUT THIS.

And ONCE again you blew most of them off. Try rereading them again..i pointed a few of the best replies below.

Oh..one LAST bit. It is not YOUR Buffy. If she belongs to ANYONE,it is Joss's Buffy,and if he says she slept with a woman,she did. Buffy is NOT your icon,she is NOT your princess in a ivory tower. She is a fictional character,and one with lots of negative traits. Yet once again,you are on borderline fanaticism with the character. You say you are open to new ideas,how about Listening instead of TELLING what is what.

And by the way,Buffy Summers is a selfish bitch at times,and even Dawn could of told you that. Dosn't mean you can't love her as a character,but she is flawed,ergo she is human. Deal with it.
Have you been reading the series at all? Have you watched Buffy and more importantly the way she acts from season 6-on

This is exactly like something she would do. Feeling alone in the world and taking advantage of the people around her in attempt to try and make herself feel better about the way things are. As great a hero Buffy is she uses and abuses the people around her when she feels the need to.

I did and he did in the interview as well.

Re-read the earlier issues of Season 8 and look back at how she treated the people around her in her depressed times(if you want to ignore how she acted in season 6 and 7 it doesn't matter she was still written that way, your dislike for it there doesn't mean it was out of character and it help support whats happening here, because she was in character then and she is now) also if you want to pretend all the season 6 and somewhat season 7 stuff didn't happen just look at season 2, its opening episode alone is a great example or even some of the later episodes, she slept with angel not just because she cared for him but because of the whole situation that was happening around her, being upset and depressed. (Leaving her friends to fend at the end of season 2 was another great example, leaving them to protect sunnydale on their own), etc.

Plus Her age its not like thats completely uncommon to try different things out, now if it happened over and over and over again I would say it was way out of character, but your faulting her for trying something once. Thats kinda silly.

It's definitely in character for Buffy to have sex with someone she doesn't really feel an emotional attachment to, and who she knows has feelings for, out of her own selfishness. Whether or not it's in character for that someone to be a woman is debatable. Personally, that detail in and of itself doesn't bother me. Hell, maybe she just laid there and accepted pleasure from the girl without returning the favor. It wouldn't be the first time that's happened.

The thing about this that bothers me though, is that number one, it seemed like it was probably done as a cheap stunt. And number two, it's been several years, and the writers STILL won't have Andrew come out of the damn closet. In fact, they've added in stuff that make his homosexuality deniable to those who would object. Not only that, but Lorne, one of the gayest characters to ever be on my television screen, was written to be attracted to women. That's at least twice that male homosexuality has been teased or dodged with no pay off by Whedon and co., while female homosexuality has been portrayed openly.

Two of the four people she's slept with technically are dead and reanimated by demons... But you have a problem with a girl?

Her actions are in character. I'd try to explain it, but read Joss's interviews, and also go to the independent forum and read JeffreyWKramer's posts. He explains it very clearly there also. And she's not gay. She just was lonely and Satsu was available and in love with her. It's not that different than the situation with Spike.

Plus, that issue was excellent! I was dying when Xander and Andrew walked in. "My Eye! My Beautiful Burning Eye!"

I consider it perfectly in character, as I've already noted in other BUFFY threads here at CBR.

First off, keep in mind that Buffy has, all through the show, demonstrated a tendency to turn to sex for comfort and validation. Parker, Riley, Spike... those relationships were largely about her trying to fill the hole left by Angel's departure, or to simply feel something other than emptiness and pain. And currently, it's not like there are a lot of maile choices around for Buffy. She views Giles as a father (or did until she got pissed at him re: the recent stuff w/ Faith), Xander as a brother and Andrew as... well, as Andrew. Plus the many not-very-subtle hints that Andrew is latently or closeted-gay.

Second, it's not at all unusual for people that generally regard themselves as heterosexual to engage in some same-sex activities when they find themselves in situations where they are exclusively or near-exclusively around people of the same sex. This happens in prisons (all the sex in prisons isn't rape), in the military, in same-sex academic settings, etc.

Beyond that, I think this situation has the potential to bring in one thing so far lacking from this comic. BUFFY just isn't BUFFY unless the title character is experiencing interpersonal difficulties and inner turmoil, and now we have a situation that might provide that.

She's sacrificed a lot, but that doesn't necessarily make her likable. Not for the past few seasons, at least. Lots of shitty behavior tends to counteract that.

Please reread,DF. The people above tried to awnser the question you FINALLY worked yourself into a tizzy about. Give them the courtesy of at least absorbing what they said,and looking at other views that differ from your own.

[JeffreyWKramer]

So, do you think this makes her bisexual?
It depends on how one defines that term. I tend to think that under the right circumstances, just about everyone is probably capable of same-gender behavior, but what that means to that person's identity is going to differ a lot from person to person. Also, more and more over time, I tend to lean toward the Kinsey idea that one can talk about homosexual or heterosexual acts, but that individual people aren't necessarily discretely homosexual or heterosexual or bisexual, but rather fall at different places on a continuum of sexuality.

While I don't have a problem with her being bisexual, it just bothers me that people would want to put a label on her for this one act.
I think people like to have labels on things, because ambiguity is uncomfortable, and this tends to be particularly the case in regard to sexuality.

In the long run, since we're talking about a fictional character, I'm most interested in seeing how Buffy ends up identifying herself in light of this.

[Johnny_Luck]

I was agreeing with you up until that last crazy sentence.

Season 7>>>>>>>>>>>>Season 5 in every way, shape and form and the Ending overall was so much better too.

You had The Return of Faith, introduction of the kick butt Potential Kennedy, Andrew being himself, The Fray Scythe which is killer, Nathan Fillion as Caleb, and all that awesome stuff is only after the arc started, then you have episodes like Him, and Lesson, Beneath you, also the way Buffy used the Uber Vamp to teach her Potentials a lesson was brilliant.

You had really brilliant episodes later on in the reason like the Killer in Me, Storyteller, and Dirty Girls.

Season 5 we had Buffy sacrifice herself for a whiney, annoying, rotten brat who never became more than that and whose only redeeming factors as a season were Glory and the way Giles dealt with it in the finale.

[Starleafgirl]

EDIT: Thanks for reminding me of the Glory season, Johnny Luck. The doctor guy in that season was another available-interested-man for Buffy, as I recall...

And this is part of the reason I don't accept the Spike relationship: Her love for Angel was so strong, so full, so true. She goes from Angel to Spike? Then, years later, to a woman?

When did this happen? How did it happen? I mean, it effectively comes off as "This chick's around, let's get it on!" That's not the Buffy Summers I know and love. But let me re-state: I loathed S6, and stopped watching S7 soon after the premier. I do NOT consider those seasons to be part of the show. For me, Buffy the Vampire Slayer ended with her death in "The Gift".

Maybe I need to re-watch the series. Maybe I need to re-evaluate the character.

Hi d_f, I hope you caught my post at the bottom of page 8. Yes, you do need to re-watch the series and re-evaluate the character, in my opinion, because what she's done with Satsu, to me, is essentially the same as how her relationships with Riley and Spike began. Both men were available and interested. Satsu is available and interested. All three times, Buffy was under some sort of pressure and all her angst and loneliness and she just wants to be with someone. She doesn't discriminate between man or woman, because she's a very accepting person.

And more than upsetting in the sense that Buffy is all of a sudden bi-sexual. Here's a girl in her care, essentially. She's, for all intents and purposes, an underling. And Buffy is shagging her?!

It's all kinds of wrong. And I truly, honestly, deeply don't feel that it something Buffy would do. She's supposed to be a heroine. Yes, she is flawed and troubled. But she's a heroine. And she takes a girl "in her employ" and gets funky with her? It makes me sad.

Sad to say, but that's what Buffy became in Season 7, if you look at Buffy+Spike. She took advantage of Spike, which is all kinds of wrong. I strongly disagree that a single act could make anyone bisexual, or be convincing evidence in itself of bisexuality, but I wholeheartedly agree that it was morally wrong to take advantage of Satsu, a girl in her care. Still, that's society and people (you and me) judging her. I'm not saying we're right or wrong to judge her, but we are. I was hoping she'd be less troubled by now, but oh well. Buffy has never been a cut-and-dry character and I like that about her.

I expect her to live up to a standard, a standard that doesn't include shagging underlings, or having lesbian "experiments" just because no guys are around.

Buffy's one of my goddesses too, and a goddess in the game Anarchy Online, but that's beside the point, lol. I just wanted to say that I think this is deeper, more caring attachment sex than "experiment" sex... Spike might've been "experiment" sex... I'm not sure if you're aware of this or not, but two women can have sex without its purpose being some lame-o, horny curiosity-satisfier. Trust me, it happens.

I mean, I'm hard up lately, and I'm not just jumping on the nearest guy around. Why would Buffy?

You can compare it to the prison situation, if you want. All that's around her, practically, are other women.

Anyway, hopefully everything I've (and other people have) said in my posts add up to some measure of "why" and hopefully the coming issues will further explain.

[diana_fan]

DF for the millionth time having sex one time with someone of same gender does not, I repeat does not and I again repeat NOT make you Bi.

How many men have you had sex with in the last two weeks?

Buffy was ATTRACTED to that woman. It doesn't make her gay. But jesus, it makes her at least bi-sexual. She is SLEEPING WITH A WOMAN!

Did she not like her? Was she not attracted to her? Did she not find her sexy?

She must have seen something in her!

[Typo Lad]

Sometimes, just knowing someone is in love with you can be flattering enough to make you go "well, I know I'm not gay, but he's being so sweet and kind and it would only be one time, right?"

...

I'm just saying

[Johnny_Luck]

How many men have you had sex with in the last two weeks?

Buffy was ATTRACTED to that woman. It doesn't make her gay. But jesus, it makes her at least bi-sexual. She is SLEEPING WITH A WOMAN!

Did she not like her? Was she not attracted to her? Did she not find her sexy?

She must have seen something in her!

You clearly don't understand the concept that people experiment in life and it doesn't make them one way or another and that doesn't mean they are bi or gay.

Go visit a college campus sometime or something, please.

[AllisterH]

re: Superman and 1000 year exile

Am I the only one that actually thought it made the Lois/Clark relationship somewhat CREEPY. Maybe it's just me, but I always envisioned True Love as a love that makes you better as a person at the end, not a person who can't love again.

Which is what that storyline AND the DC 1,000,000 storyline always struck me as wrong somehow. I certainly do NOT want my SO to pine away for me for the rest of her life. I love that woman and I want her to be happy after I'm gone.

Am I crazy? To me, the Supes/Lois relationship is the type of relationship you always hear people say "Oh, he committed suicide after she died, he just couldn't live without her". I don't actually think THAT"S a good thing as apparently a lot of people do.


re: Willow
I still say Willow is Bi. Otherwise, it basically trivalizes her relationships/crushes with Oz and Xander. I just can't agree to that.

[diana_fan]

You clearly don't understand the concept that people experiment in life and it doesn't make them one way or another and that doesn't mean they are bi or gay.

Go visit a college campus sometime or something, please.

Yeah. I don't understand the concept of experimentation. Right. :)

[JeffreyWKramer]

While I will disagree with you that it is out of character, I will also accept the idea that maybe I am too deep in fantasy with this particular character.
I think that may be the case, and I think also that your distaste for some of the later seasons is causing you to ignore the larger context of Buffy's relationship history.

Buffy was DESPERATELY in love with Angel. So in love, in fact, that she had him drink from her (the second most erotic moment of the series, IMO). And this is part of the reason I don't accept the Spike relationship: Her love for Angel was so strong, so full, so true. She goes from Angel to Spike? Then, years later, to a woman?

Keep in mind, season 4 practically started with her becoming involved with Parker, and in fairly short order she was with Riley.

My personal take is that deep down, she remains deeply in love with Angel, and likely always will, but she knows that circumstances aren't ever going to work in their favor, so she is trying desperately to move on, or at least to fill the huge void left in her life by Angel's absence. Unfortunately, that is never really going to happen, meaning she is going to end up unfulfilled, and some other people will end up hurt along the way.

It's one of the more tragic aspects of Buffy as a character, really.

Maybe I need to re-watch the series. Maybe I need to re-evaluate the character. I'm open to those ideas. I am. But the idea that Buffy, who had previously only shown heterosexual interests, who had a best friend who was gay, who hung with not one, but two Slayers who were incredibly hot, and never showed the slightest bit of sexual interest in either, that she would suddenly say to herself: Well, let's have a good time with this Asian girl. That's upsetting to me.

I think it would be a good idea for you to rewatch with an eye not just to your personal identification with the character and the overt plot points, but also to the development of character and theme through the show. I think that might shift your view of things a bit, but I also think it's a good idea just because BUFFY is well worth rewatching. Really, it's a show that rewards rewatching more than any other TV series I can think of, save perhaps (and only perhaps) the first 5 seasons or so of X-FILES.

And more than upsetting in the sense that Buffy is all of a sudden bi-sexual. Here's a girl in her care, essentially. She's, for all intents and purposes, an underling. And Buffy is shagging her?!

It's all kinds of wrong. And I truly, honestly, deeply don't feel that it something Buffy would do. She's supposed to be a heroine. Yes, she is flawed and troubled. But she's a heroine. And she takes a girl "in her employ" and gets funky with her? It makes me sad.

The scene itself doesn't portray Buffy as trying to use this girl or anything like that. The girl herself is a very willing participant, even though she clearly worries that her own dreams won't come true in this relationship.

Me personally, I don't think this takes away at all from Buffy's heroism. It simply makes her a more human hero than many others. This is still the same Buffy who sacrificed her life for Dawn, and who took an item of great power and, rather than coveting it, shared that power with all the potential Slayers in the world, such that all those women might have the opportunity to reach their full potential.

When all is said and done, maybe you are right. Maybe I believe too much in the character. Maybe I make her out to be a goddess when she is actually a person. It wouldn't be the first time, let me tell you. But dammit, I expect Buffy to be written better. I expect her to live up to a standard, a standard that doesn't include shagging underlings, or having lesbian "experiments" just because no guys are around.

Really, Buffy isn't the first hero who has somewhat questionable patterns in regard to sexual relationships. One real-world hero would be Martin Luther King, Jr., who was more or less habitually unfaithful to his wife.

I think Joss, being a self-described athiest-humanist, is well aware that people can be very flawed but still noble and good at heart, and that he's trying to portray this in his shows. He's confronting the tendency we have to view heroes as archetypes and to put them up on pedestals, such that actual people are not going to be able to live up to the hype, and is instead promoting a more realistically human ideal of heroism, one to which ordinary, flawed humans can more easily aspire.

I mean, I'm hard up lately, and I'm not just jumping on the nearest guy around. Why would Buffy? There is absolutely nothing *wrong* with what she did. But I just don't get WHY she did it! That's my issue.
Again, I think she continues to desperately try to fill the hole left by Angel's absence.

I also think this reflects the fact that, as much as Joss wants to humanize our concept of heroism, he's very much a romantic at heart, but in having created Buffy as a tragic hero, that romance isn't destined to play out well for her.

[Johnny_Luck]

Yeah. I don't understand the concept of experimentation. Right. :)

If ya did then you wouldn't be calling her Bi, and thats all I have to say.

[diana_fan]

Most female characters in comics don't meet my standards. Especially all the T&A showpieces. All the ones you've listed are great; the first three are among my favorites, even if my love for them isn't as great as for the Buffster. Buffymeister. Other lame nicknames. Admittedly, I don't generally pay much attention outside of the superhero realm usually.

I'm going to think about your posts.

And I'm glad to see you around. I was worried about you! You just disappeared.

[Starleafgirl]

Buffy was ATTRACTED to that woman. It doesn't make her gay. But jesus, it makes her at least bi-sexual. She is SLEEPING WITH A WOMAN!

Did she not like her? Was she not attracted to her? Did she not find her sexy?

She must have seen something in her!

Maybe she wasn't attracted to her. Maybe she didn't find her sexy. She didn't have to be attracted to her to have sexual relations with that woman. Maybe she was only attracted to the prospect of being loved. Lordy. Like that's never happened, hah.

You seem to take sleeping with a woman to mean that "she's at least bi-sexual" -- I find that to be a load of crock. Now, being physically attracted to another woman, that might make a woman bisexual or gay, I dunno. But like I said, we don't know if that was necessarily the case here. Women, unlike men, have a lot of complicated reasons for sleeping with someone.

Guys, if you wanna debate that, fine, but I've observed in general that many men don't understand women's reasons for doing things...*mumbles: sometimes women don't understand, either* and that men's reasons for wanting to sleep with someone are at least in part -- but oftentimes wholly -- because she or he is a hot piece of ass. You really can't apply the same standard to women, across the board.

You clearly don't understand the concept that people experiment in life and it doesn't make them one way or another and that doesn't mean they are bi or gay.

Go visit a college campus sometime or something, please.

That stuff must've been happening when I was studying or stuck in the lab all night doing a project. :confused: I'd heard college has that reputation, but it wasn't my experience, lol. I don't experiment in life; I seriously concerned whether I was even attracted to other women, in high school, and determined that I wasn't. *shrug* Just because I say certain women are hot, doesn't mean I'd want to experiment with them. :rolleyes: But, I'm nitpicking here...

[Tor]

How many men have you had sex with in the last two weeks?

Buffy was ATTRACTED to that woman. It doesn't make her gay. But jesus, it makes her at least bi-sexual. She is SLEEPING WITH A WOMAN!

Did she not like her? Was she not attracted to her? Did she not find her sexy?

She must have seen something in her!

I see no way in which the first question you asked has ANYTHING to do with Buffy. What if Buffy did this once in an earlier season, then never again? Would you still be having this crisis?
Buffy has, historically, been self-absorbed, shallow, and weak in social graces. This fits exactly into her character--yet again, she takes advantage of someone close to her, with no thoughts to the ramifications of her actions.
This does NOT mean that she's bi, gay, or a cumquat. It just means that she REMAINS as self-absorbed and confused as many young people (myself included at times).
Just because you have sexual relations with a member of the same sex does NOT mean that you are now labeled gay or bi or whatever.

[Jack Zodiac]

If a woman has sex with a woman and then says, "Never again!" does that mean she is bi?

Is that the same as the "but ya' suck one cock!" dilemma?

[Puma]

re: Willow
I still say Willow is Bi. Otherwise, it basically trivalizes her relationships/crushes with Oz and Xander. I just can't agree to that.

I agree, I remember Willow telling Buffy(?) that she didn't fall in love with a woman, she fell in love with Tara.

After Tara's death Willow went from loving a person for the person, to loving the person for their sexual orientation and that always bothered me.

[scout1279]

The problem with Willow was that she staked her claim as a lesbian, rather than bisexual. She spent the entire first season nursing a crush on Xander, and then in seasons 2-4 she was in a serious relationship with Oz. A lot of fans of those pairings felt gypped, because her claiming to be a lesbian pretty much discounts those relationships. It just would have come across better if she had identified as bi, or at the very least, have a scene at some point where she explains her relationships with Xander and Oz in the context of her lesbian identification.

That situation barely registers any annoyance for me, though. I just think they wanted to go for the big "statement" and have her go full on gay, when making her bi would have probably made more sense.
As I recall from the many Joss Whedon interviews I have read (though I admit that my memory may be fuzzy), the original intention was that Willow would be bi, but after Tara was killed, many people took that as a sign that Whedon was backing off on the idea of Willow being gay. Whedon wanted to make it absolutely clear that that was not the case. I don't really see a problem with this though. I know several lesbians who are still very attracted to men, but happen to prefer women in general.

Although I hated Spike's attempted rape of Buffy (which he really didn't realize/intend as rape, clearly, given his own reactions after the fact) when I first saw it, it was actually an incredibly important turn for the character, as it made him realize that much as he might try to be loving and noble, his lack of a soul meant he'd always be a monster deep down, no matter how he tried. This is what led him to seek out a soul for himself, so he could be something other than a monster and possibly live up to the things he felt for Buffy.

Was it fucked up? Well, yes, but we are talking about an undead human/demon amalgam having feelings of love for, and lots of pretty rough and kinky sex with, a human woman whose job it is to kill vampires and other demons. I'd think "fucked up" would pretty much go with the territory.
I agree with this. It was a horrible scene, but it was important to get Spike to that point. I also think that it was important because so many fans did not get that brain chip does not equal a soul and that Spike was still a monster. Spike had to do something monstrous in order to drive that home. Apparently trying to drag Buffy into the darkness with him wasn't enough for a lot of people.

It's easy enough to think that from just the single panel out of context, and you're not completely wrong, but there's a bit more to it. From other things said in the scene, it's clear that Buffy was blown away by the sex, but she's struggling with what it means to her, and where things might go and what might result from that, plus - as she's done before - she expresses some insecurity as to whether she was good in bed.

Like I said, part of why I love this issue is that it brings in the inner toil and interpersonal angst which, much as it drives some up the wall, is really an essential component of Buffy the character and BUFFY the series.
I agree about the inner turmoil and the interpersonal angst being something that was missing. I don't necessarily agree that Buffy is now bisexual. Yes she enjoyed the sex and was worried about whether she was good in bed, but I actually think that a lot of that will tie into the fact that she is worried about whether or not she used Satsu, not to mention just her general insecurity. One wouldn't want to be perceived as impolite, would one?

Personally, I don't really think Whedon intended this as a stunt so much as a statement. I think he had someting to say about the nature of sexuality and he used Buffy to say it. He's prone to doing that. It's not my favorite thing about him and this isn't my favorite thing he's done with the character, but I'm willing to play the wait and see game. I could have used more build up, and would have liked to have a bit more development for Satsu beyond "has a crush on Buffy." Whedon and Goddard seemed to think there was more potential to have fun with the story by doing it this way, and they are good enough writers that they have earned the benefit of the doubt from me. I did enjoy all the farcical moments when they were caught together, so I have hope.

This turn of events did shock me (mostly because of my own issues of identification with Buffy), but it in no way changes how I feel about her or the story. And really, when season 8 started, I was scared she might have sex with Xander. That would have disturbed me way more. I'm still a bit weirded out about the fact that Buffy is essentially in a position of authority over Satsu, and I'm unclear on how old all these potential slayers are.

As others expressed early in the thread, I do wish that this open mindedness would extend to the male members of the Whedonverse. Whedon has certainly expressed it numerous times, like in his comments on the Whedonesque blog about whether or not Angel/Spike had canonical support. However, it has never been given any in-story acknowledgement, and I think that's important to do. It's also a lot harder, given that the Whedonverse has so may more female characters than male characters. I was deeply disappointed when Lorne turned out not to be gay, and I was flat out pissed off at Andrew with the gaggle of girls at the end of "The Girl in Question." Fortunately, Whedon recently stated that the Andrew thing turned out to be an error on the part of the director (it was supposed to be a group of men and women).

What I did love in this issue was Adrew playing out the Lois part of the flying scene from Superman. I don't really want to Andrew come out of the closet, at least not for a long time. That would put him at a level of self-awareness that I just don't think he's ready for. I do love those moments where his sexuality is so clearly in question though - the way he always seems to identify more with women (Lois Lane here, Anya in the episode "Storyteller") and his obvious crush on Spike. I want to see more of that, but I also think it would be really great if there was an openly gay man in the Whedonverse.

[Puma]

How many men have you had sex with in the last two weeks?

Buffy was ATTRACTED to that woman. It doesn't make her gay. But jesus, it makes her at least bi-sexual. She is SLEEPING WITH A WOMAN!

Did she not like her? Was she not attracted to her? Did she not find her sexy?

She must have seen something in her!

Buff is going through a BIG self-doubt phase. She found someone who cared for her and found her attractive so she went for it.

It could've been a swamp demon, as long as the swamp demon felt something for Buffy.

[Starleafgirl]

I'm going to think about your posts.

And I'm glad to see you around. I was worried about you! You just disappeared.

Hehehe, yeah, I had RL stuff to deal with. But I'm okay. Well, I was until March 1, when my cat died. :(

Way to suddenly shift gears of me, but... Happy to see you too, even if we disagree on the lovely Buffy. :D

[Gilda Dent]

re: Willow
I still say Willow is Bi. Otherwise, it basically trivalizes her relationships/crushes with Oz and Xander. I just can't agree to that.

No, it doesn't, not any more than subsequent heterosexual relationships would trivialize those previous ones. It means she was still developing sexually into the person she eventually became. Female sexuality is more fluid and subject to environmental influence than male sexuality.

That said, there is a wonderful little joke regarding Willow's sexuality in the later episode with the fembot Warren made. When she meets Willow, in her viewfinder flashes an ID something like Willow Rosenberg, lesbian (1999-present) or whatever the year was.

[That JonoGuy]

I guess I'm in the minority on this one. This move just doesn't seem in character to me. Buffy even had a tinge of disgust in her reaction to Willow being out, it just doesn't seem to fit with how she was written in the past. I understand her using other people to fill an emptiness, but i guess I just don't see how the leap gets her to a lesbian lover.

I'll give Whedon the benefit of knowing what is right for his character, but I just don't think she portrayed as ever being all that attracted to women enough to sleep with one.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I agree, I remember Willow telling Buffy(?) that she didn't fall in love with a woman, she fell in love with Tara.

After Tara's death Willow went from loving a person for the person, to loving the person for their sexual orientation and that always bothered me.

Personally, I think it's yet another example of Willow's underlying insecurity, which is a big factor that contributed to her slide into darkness. Having been with Tara, she takes the easy route of identifying herself with a label (lesbian), rather than the harder task of figuring out for herself who she is.

On the other hand, and harkening back to some of my earlier comments re: lesbians, Willow certainly wouldn't be the first woman who turns to women mostly because she kept getting hurt in her relationships with me.

[Starleafgirl]

I don't really want to Andrew come out of the closet, at least not for a long time. That would put him at a level of self-awareness that I just don't think he's ready for. I do love those moments where his sexuality is so clearly in question though - the way he always seems to identify more with women (Lois Lane here, Anya in the episode "Storyteller") and his obvious crush on Spike. I want to see more of that, but I also think it would be really great if there was an openly gay man in the Whedonverse.

Um, I think you should rejoice, because he totally came out on the show itself.

*long pause*

Right? I mean, everyone knows he has the hots for Spike... Oh! And his character took a turn when it turned out his utter devotion to that guy (what was his name... the evil one, the head of the gang of three) was based on having a huge crush on him.

[Jack Zodiac]

Sheets do not work that way!

They do when they're soakin' wet! ;)

[diana_fan]

OK, I'm out of this whole thing.

Sorry to have brought it up.

[Corrina]

Well, Season Six is all over the place. There's the musical episode, which, really is all you need....

I buy that Willow's magic would get away from her--it has previously and it did in Tabula Rosa.

What I don't buy is the whole addiction part of the storyline, particularly 'Wrecked' with the car accident. It felt too...obvious...for lack of a better word. And I bought completely that she'd go insane and destroy Tara's murderer. Ending the entire world seemed, again, a little too much though, okay, fine, it's all the nasty power taking control and whatnot. My take on Willow, though, if she was in that much pain, that she'd kill herself after dispatching Tara's murderers, not the whole world. Be that as it may, it mostly worked save for the After-School special parts of it.

Basically, I've read the first trade and most of the issues up to this Buffy issue in Season Eight and I have to admit, I laughed out loud at Xander playing Nick Fury, first off, among other things. I just...I'm just not buying it, I'm particularly not buying that Buffy is going to send in other people to pretend to be her to get killed. It's an interesting idea but this is a person who consistently would rather take the hit herself than send out people to do it for her. She's the one who had to kill Angelus, for instance, or insisted on facing down the first. She'll take an army with her but send someone out in her place? Don't buy it.

The only story I liked in the first trade was the one with the Buffy doppleganger, though. Mainly because it worked as a story without any baggage.

I think everyone has visions of these characters after seven years of watching them and we're all going to have different interpretations. But I think what's missing in this storyline from the beginning was the decision making. We don't *see* Buffy make that decision to sleep with another woman. It's off-screen. I think it should be on-screen.

Similarly, I think we should have seen what led to Buffy forming the Slayer army and stealing items to do it, instead of having it unfold in flashback. It's the same problem I have with "Lost" and the new season of "Heroes," --how can you buy the motivation if you don't see it until weeks or months later and it's backfilled in? It's like what was done with Cordy turning evil. Mostly, watching the episodes beforehand is "WTF?" and the big reveal doesn't feel like a natural plot twist but a writer thinking "oops, better explain."

[Johnny_Luck]

Um, I think you should rejoice, because he totally came out on the show itself.

*long pause*

Right? I mean, everyone knows he has the hots for Spike... Oh! And his character took a turn when it turned out his utter devotion to that guy (what was his name... the evil one, the head of the gang of three) was based on having a huge crush on him.

Umm no he didn't. there were subtle hints throughout the show with things like the hospital scene with Anya and his trip to find info on Caleb with spike in season 7, but they never once straight out had him say he liked men over women.

We know he does, but he never actually came out and said so(until that happens he hasn't come out of the closet yet)

P.S. Season 6 is worth it just for the Xander/Evil Willow Showdown alone, let alone the Trio and Once More with Feeling. When Xander finally gets to be the one to save the day I was jumping for joy and I loved how they did it, what they made everything about.

[JeffreyWKramer]

As others expressed early in the thread, I do wish that this open mindedness would extend to the male members of the Whedonverse. Whedon has certainly expressed it numerous times, like in his comments on the Whedonesque blog about whether or not Angel/Spike had canonical support. However, it has never been given any in-story acknowledgement, and I think that's important to do.
I think there's, if not full acknowledgement, certainly nods in that direction during Season 5 of ANGEL. It's not openly said, but Joss, being a director as opposed to just a writer, doesn't tell all of the story just through what is said, but also what is shown.

Hell, if someone looks at the sacrifice scene in the first episode of Season 6, and takes the time to really analyze the visuals and the religiomythological references and think through the implications of the actions, it is immediately clear that Willow was already in such a dark place by that point that her heading the way she did after Tara's death was pretty much a foregone conclusion. Joss doesn't come out and say it, but it's all plainly right there.
Not quite as blatantly, there are some bits with Spike and Angel that really suggest they might have done some experimentation at some point.

It's also a lot harder, given that the Whedonverse has so may more female characters than male characters. I was deeply disappointed when Lorne turned out not to be gay, and I was flat out pissed off at Andrew with the gaggle of girls at the end of "The Girl in Question." Fortunately, Whedon recently stated that the Andrew thing turned out to be an error on the part of the director (it was supposed to be a group of men and women).


As is, I took the scene with Andrew as him continuing to be in denial of his own sexuality.

[JeffreyWKramer]

OK, I'm out of this whole thing.

Sorry to have brought it up.

Hey, you did nothing wrong.

I appreciate your starting the thread, thereby giving me a forum for discussing BUFFY.

[Starleafgirl]

No, it doesn't, not any more than subsequent heterosexual relationships would trivialize those previous ones. It means she was still developing sexually into the person she eventually became.

I agree wholeheartedly, Gilda. Willow being a lesbian doesn't trivialize her past relationships/feelings for Oz and Xander (which is funny of me to say, considering I said that Buffy being bisexual would trivialize her past relationships with Angel, Riley, Spike, etc.). I suppose the difference is that I always saw Buffy as more developed than Willow, who was in many ways a late bloomer, so Buffy's sexuality to me was defined as being heterosexual long before Willow started being in relationships 'n such.

Of course, she hates Oz's guts and Xander's back to being the friend he really always was, so...

I guess I'm in the minority on this one. This move just doesn't seem in character to me. Buffy even had a tinge of disgust in her reaction to Willow being out, it just doesn't seem to fit with how she was written in the past. I understand her using other people to fill an emptiness, but i guess I just don't see how the leap gets her to a lesbian lover.

I'll give Whedon the benefit of knowing what is right for his character, but I just don't think she portrayed as ever being all that attracted to women enough to sleep with one.

Hmm, I don't think there was a twinge of disgust in her reaction to Willow being out, but I admit I didn't fully get Buffy's reaction. I figured it was more of surprise. Like I said before, I don't think Buffy was ever portrayed as being all that attracted to women enough to sleep with one, either, but I'd also like to recall an earlier poster who said something like, "Two of the last four people she slept with were REANIMATED CORPSES and you've got a problem with a woman?" Lol.

Personally, I'd understand the need to fill that emptiness with another woman more than I'd understand filling it with reanimated corpses. In general. Just sayin'.

[jerrymcl89]

Umm no he didn't. there were subtle hints throughout the show with things like the hospital scene with Anya and his trip to find info on Caleb with spike in season 7, but they never once straight out had him say he liked men over women.

We know he does, but he never actually came out and said so(until that happens he hasn't come out of the closet yet).

Andrew isn't openly gay because although we know he's gay, he doesn't.

[Starleafgirl]

We know he does, but he never actually came out and said so(until that happens he hasn't come out of the closet yet).

Andrew isn't openly gay because although we know he's gay, he doesn't.

I'm pretty sure he said he loved Warren (that's the evil guy, right?). At the very least, he figured out he was attracted to him, after a while, after some episodes of him half-heartedly joining in on saying women are hott 'n such.

[Johnny_Luck]

Andrew isn't openly gay because although we know he's gay, he doesn't.

thats what I was saying.

[TCJohnson]

It depends on how one defines that term. I tend to think that under the right circumstances, just about everyone is probably capable of same-gender behavior, but what that means to that person's identity is going to differ a lot from person to person. Also, more and more over time, I tend to lean toward the Kinsey idea that one can talk about homosexual or heterosexual acts, but that individual people aren't necessarily discretely homosexual or heterosexual or bisexual, but rather fall at different places on a continuum of sexuality.
I can agree with this.



I also agree with this but it bothers me.

[quote]
In the long run, since we're talking about a fictional character, I'm most interested in seeing how Buffy ends up identifying herself in light of this.

Well, part of this discussion is about a fictional character. I am more interested in the real people's attitudes towards sexuality.

[Tor]

[QUOTE=Corrina;6474462]Well, Season Six is all over the place. There's the musical episode, which, really is all you need....

I buy that Willow's magic would get away from her--it has previously and it did in Tabula Rosa.

What I don't buy is the whole addiction part of the storyline, particularly 'Wrecked' with the car accident. It felt too...obvious...for lack of a better word. QUOTE]

I agree with you completely! I actually just watched it again 2 nights ago, and it made as little sense to me then as it does now.
Previously, Amy never displayed anything REMOTELY like how she was TWO DAYS after being a rat for 3 years. Doesn't make much sense to me.
While Willow was letting her magic use get away from her in terrifying ways, the whole "addict" mentallity in Wrecked felt shoehorned in, as natural as a robot in a western.

[Starleafgirl]

I agree with you completely! I actually just watched it again 2 nights ago, and it made as little sense to me then as it does now.

What I'm thinking of, Andrew figuring out he was in love with Warren, happened in season six if it happened at all, I think. Since you just watched it, could you help me out here? :D I'm willing to be wrong, but I think any man who constantly flirts with another man has to be comfortable enough in his gayness to know it...

[JeffreyWKramer]

Well, Season Six is all over the place. There's the musical episode, which, really is all you need....

I buy that Willow's magic would get away from her--it has previously and it did in Tabula Rosa.

I had trouble with this, too, on first viewings, but if you rewatch things closely, you'll see it's not a matter of the magic getting away from Willow. Nor is it just a matter of "magic addiction." It's, if anything, an example of the corruptive nature of power.

Consider the sacrifice scene in the first episode of Season 6. In order to get what she needs for the attempt to resurrect Buffy, Willow draws on aspects of her previous and current religion and, in effect, sacrifices elements of both faiths (and very much violates the tenets of her current identified faith) for the sake of the goal she's set for herself. It's a progression from the scene near the end of Season 5, when in order to go after Glory, who has just mind-sucked Tara, Willow jumps into the darkest of black magic books without the slightest thought of long-term consequences.

I think everyone has visions of these characters after seven years of watching them and we're all going to have different interpretations. But I think what's missing in this storyline from the beginning was the decision making. We don't *see* Buffy make that decision to sleep with another woman. It's off-screen. I think it should be on-screen.

Similarly, I think we should have seen what led to Buffy forming the Slayer army and stealing items to do it, instead of having it unfold in flashback. It's the same problem I have with "Lost" and the new season of "Heroes," --how can you buy the motivation if you don't see it until weeks or months later and it's backfilled in? It's like what was done with Cordy turning evil. Mostly, watching the episodes beforehand is "WTF?" and the big reveal doesn't feel like a natural plot twist but a writer thinking "oops, better explain."

I agree that it would be better if we were shown more of what happened between seasons 7 and 8, but this is very much like Joss. Keep in mind what he did in Season 5, with just dumping Dawn on the viewers with no explanation at all, and then parcelling out clues for several weeks before her presence is explained.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Well, part of this discussion is about a fictional character. I am more interested in the real people's attitudes towards sexuality.

That's completely legit as well.

[shrike]

I've had sexual relations with both men and women, though it has been more experimental, or even just... I dunno. Like this Buffy situation, though, it was 'back in the day'.

I'm not sure how Diana_Fan can state it is out of character when the writer not only created Buffy but outlined all of her ordeals for over a decade.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Previously, Amy never displayed anything REMOTELY like how she was TWO DAYS after being a rat for 3 years. Doesn't make much sense to me.
From her first appearance, and her mom's actions/fate, you'd think Amy would maybe be wary of the magic, but nope... when next we see her (the love spell for Xander), she's jumping into high-level magics readily enough. Not a lot of judgment with that girl.

While Willow was letting her magic use get away from her in terrifying ways, the whole "addict" mentallity in Wrecked felt shoehorned in, as natural as a robot in a western.

Consider all the warnings Giles made from season 3 on about the danger of the magics Willow was messing with. Consider her jumping into the black magic to avenge Tara vs. Glory.

Season 6 took it a lot further, but none of the things there came out of nowhere.

[JeffreyWKramer]

What I'm thinking of, Andrew figuring out he was in love with Warren, happened in season six if it happened at all, I think. Since you just watched it, could you help me out here? :D I'm willing to be wrong, but I think any man who constantly flirts with another man has to be comfortable enough in his gayness to know it...

I don't think Andrew is aware of some of his flirting. In season 6, it's pretty clear to the viewer that Andrew is gay, but it's also pretty clear that he either hasn't figured that out yet, or isn't willing to accept it.

[Starleafgirl]

I don't think Andrew is aware of some of his flirting. In season 6, it's pretty clear to the viewer that Andrew is gay, but it's also pretty clear that he either hasn't figured that out yet, or isn't willing to accept it.

Thanks. :)

I did a little search and the Buffyverse Wiki for Andrew Wells had this in it: Andrew still idolizes him, even after Warren betrays both him and Jonathan, although eventually realizes that "he never really loved... hanging out with us."

That's definitely most probably what I was thinking of when I was convinced of Andrew's mention of love for Warren. You know, like a crush on him and maybe even an imaginary relationship with him. But Andrew obviously hasn't completely figured himself out, as evident in Season 8. So... Sorry everyone! :D

I do think that moment of Andrew showing up with a woman on each arm at the end of "The Girl In Question" as his "dates" is a bit odd, but he might've just wanted to show off and seem larger than life to Angel and Spike, to impress them. ;) That's how I always thought of it.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I do think that moment of Andrew showing up with a woman on each arm at the end of "The Girl In Question" as his "dates" is a bit odd, but he might've just wanted to show off and seem larger than life to Angel and Spike, to impress them. ;) That's how I always thought of it.

He's living large, playing the part of the cool guy rather than just fantasizing about them, and probably still in denial.

Think of how many gay film stars have been seen hanging out with beautiful women.

[TCJohnson]

They do when they're soakin' wet! ;)

That's what I said! :mad: :mad: :D

[Starleafgirl]

He's living large, playing the part of the cool guy rather than just fantasizing about them, and probably still in denial.

Think of how many gay film stars have been seen hanging out with beautiful women.

Mmm-hmm. :cool:

[JeffreyWKramer]

They do when they're soakin' wet! ;)

The next question would then be "With what are they wet?"

[Jack Zodiac]

That's what I said! :mad: :mad: :D

You were more eloquent and merely implied sweat. ;)

[That JonoGuy]

From her first appearance, and her mom's actions/fate, you'd think Amy would maybe be wary of the magic, but nope... when next we see her (the love spell for Xander), she's jumping into high-level magics readily enough. Not a lot of judgment with that girl.

I agree. Plus, being locked in a cage as a rat for a few years is bound to do some damage to the mind.

I do think though that her fall into darkness went a little too fast. I thought there should have been a bit more buildup of her use of darker magic. Seeing as she wasn't one of the main characters it's understandable they may not have had the time for that buildup.

[TCJohnson]

I've had sexual relations with both men and women, though it has been more experimental, or even just... I dunno. Like this Buffy situation, though, it was 'back in the day'.

I'm not sure how Diana_Fan can state it is out of character when the writer not only created Buffy but outlined all of her ordeals for over a decade.

I think it is very possible for the creator of a character to write something out of character. George Lucas and Attack of the Clones comes to mind.

But I don't think it is out of character in this case, for all the reasons JeffreyWKramer and others have been pointing out.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I agree. Plus, being locked in a cage as a rat for a few years is bound to do some damage to the mind.

I do think though that her fall into darkness went a little too fast. I thought there should have been a bit more buildup of her use of darker magic. Seeing as she wasn't one of the main characters it's understandable they may not have had the time for that buildup.

I always figured she probably was involved in the stuff with Rack and all that behind the scenes before she got stuck in rat form in Season 3. She probably got into the dark stuff in a big way between that ep with Xander's love spell and her becoming a rat for awhile.

Mind you, I can't quote any in-text support for that conclusion, but it would fit with what was shown.

[Indigo Al]

But she's Buffy! She is more than just a girl, the way that Superman is more than just a man. She's Chosen.


Think Peter Parker, not Superman. I think this is why Buffy will be one of the enduring female superheroes in fiction.

[Indigo Al]

To me, the gross egregious turn of events in Season 8 are the Buffy decoys. Granted, I haven't read through most of the Season yet (I am waiting for TPBs), but I've yet to see any compelling reason why she would set up two other Slayers take a bullet for her. Then again, given her "I would sacrifice Dawn to win this war" attitude in Season 7 is in line with that.

As for Satsu - yes, of course, I agree with everyone who says that her history with Spike is a clear indicator that this isn't terribly out of character. I think she used Spike to feel something, but I think she also needs to be liked/loved, and considering she's no longer special, no longer "The One Girl in All the World," I can see how and why this would occur.

[JeffreyWKramer]

To me, the gross egregious turn of events in Season 8 are the Buffy decoys. Granted, I haven't read through most of the Season yet (I am waiting for TPBs), but I've yet to see any compelling reason why she would set up two other Slayers take a bullet for her. Then again, given her "I would sacrifice Dawn to win this war" attitude in Season 7 is in line with that.
It's more or less the same reason political figures of other sorts have "decoys" - the safety of the leader. Also, it's to keep the monsters off guard, not really knowing where Buffy is and isn't, what she's up to, etc.

[That JonoGuy]

I always figured she probably was involved in the stuff with Rack and all that behind the scenes before she got stuck in rat form in Season 3. She probably got into the dark stuff in a big way between that ep with Xander's love spell and her becoming a rat for awhile.

Mind you, I can't quote any in-text support for that conclusion, but it would fit with what was shown.

That is the impression i got as well. She definitely was abusing before she became a rat, but It never seemed as severe as when she turned back human. I guess it could be said that her being a rat drove her off the edge into it more fully.

[JeffreyWKramer]

That is the impression i got as well. She definitely was abusing before she became a rat, but It never seemed as severe as when she turned back human. I guess it could be said that her being a rat drove her off the edge into it more fully.

Or that she'd been without that "fix" for so long that when she finally got the chance, she dived in whole hog (or rat, or whatever).

[saintsaucey]

I finally read the issue. HILARIOUS. Andrew stole the issue. The Buffy situation doesn't bother me. I'm with Joss through the story line and through the rest of season eight. The Dracula stuff is gonna be pretty cool.

[beetlebum]

There's also a book, BUFFER THE VAMPIRE SLAYER AND PHILOSOPHY, which is quite good. It covers some of the same ground, and is highly recommended.

Yep. I will definitely check out that book about BUFFER. ;) =D

She definately is not the most likable human being out there, like I said when I edited my thread above, there were a lot better and more characters who were likable and fun to latch onto than Buffy, but that doesn't mean I think she was completely unlikable.

I just never watched the show with the intention of watching it just for her, while there are times were with the other characters I listed I could continue on through a bad episode just because they were good in it.


Well, that is true. Every character has irremediable flaws that may rub people the wrong way. The thing is though, is that the hatred of her is so ridiculous. I mean, Buffy has fought demi-goddesses, and yet in Rumbles, they still have her losing in fights to grizzly bears, and hell even hobbits. I don't think any other character inspires that much insipid hatred. But you did put forth a good hypothesis as to why they don't like her. And yeah, it's a testament to the writers and the strength of the actors as an ensemble cast when you can watch the show for all of the other characters as well as the protagonist.

And for years, Cordelia was my fav, simply because she was equal parts McBitchy, and a girl with a heart of solid gold. But mostly, I just liked it when she would say the most inappropriate things at the worst intervals. Coincidentally, Anya also became one of my favs for that exact same reason. :D

[beetlebum]

That is the impression i got as well. She definitely was abusing before she became a rat, but It never seemed as severe as when she turned back human. I guess it could be said that her being a rat drove her off the edge into it more fully.

Don't forget, her mom was also a total control freak/bitch who became that way after Amy's dad ran out on them. She used to padlock the fridge, and even verbally abused Amy while she was eating brownies.

That had to play some part in Amy's overall development, and did help mold her into the person that she eventually became.

All that harm done by a woman permanently locked in a trophy.

[Johnny_Luck]

Well, that is true. Every character has irremediable flaws that may rub people the wrong way. The thing is though, is that the hatred of her is so ridiculous. I mean, Buffy has fought demi-goddesses, and yet in Rumbles, they still have her losing in fights to grizzly bears, and hell even hobbits. I don't think any other character inspires that much insipid hatred. But you did put forth a good hypothesis as to why they don't like her. And yeah, it's a testament to the writers and the strength of the actors as an ensemble cast when you can watch the show for all of the other characters as well as the protagonist.



I think a lot of hate for Buffy comes from mostly males who don't watch and have never watched Buffy and claim that because it deals with feelings and people and has a female lead that its target audience is females and mostly young teenage females.

I seen people post threads over the internet who rant about how its a chick show and its evident they clearly never watched it or watched more than a few minutes of it because they clearly don't know what they are talking about.

I mean Honestly if anyone in their right mind thought that a show about a person who goes around dusting vampires and fighting demons was aimed directly at more females then males, they they need to get their brain checked.

Yes There are probably more female fans of the show then male, but its got more violence and action then any guy could ask for, plus great comedy and characters, its not just aimed at one age group or one gender.


I think its those kinds of people that are upset that Buffy is so much involved in pop culture now, is so popular with people other than their ignorant selves that they just trash the character whenever they can for the sake of it.

As for my favorite character Ever in both Buffy/Angel its hands down without a doubt Faith for I think obvious reasons. I think shes the best Slayer to date and then I throw Kendra and then I even like Kennedy more often than not then Buffy, thats not to say Buffy is a bad slayer.

[beetlebum]

Well, Season Six is all over the place. There's the musical episode, which, really is all you need....

I buy that Willow's magic would get away from her--it has previously and it did in Tabula Rosa.

What I don't buy is the whole addiction part of the storyline, particularly 'Wrecked' with the car accident. It felt too...obvious...for lack of a better word. And I bought completely that she'd go insane and destroy Tara's murderer. Ending the entire world seemed, again, a little too much though, okay, fine, it's all the nasty power taking control and whatnot. My take on Willow, though, if she was in that much pain, that she'd kill herself after dispatching Tara's murderers, not the whole world. Be that as it may, it mostly worked save for the After-School special parts of it.

Basically, I've read the first trade and most of the issues up to this Buffy issue in Season Eight and I have to admit, I laughed out loud at Xander playing Nick Fury, first off, among other things. I just...I'm just not buying it, I'm particularly not buying that Buffy is going to send in other people to pretend to be her to get killed. It's an interesting idea but this is a person who consistently would rather take the hit herself than send out people to do it for her. She's the one who had to kill Angelus, for instance, or insisted on facing down the first. She'll take an army with her but send someone out in her place? Don't buy it.

The only story I liked in the first trade was the one with the Buffy doppleganger, though. Mainly because it worked as a story without any baggage.

I think everyone has visions of these characters after seven years of watching them and we're all going to have different interpretations. But I think what's missing in this storyline from the beginning was the decision making. We don't *see* Buffy make that decision to sleep with another woman. It's off-screen. I think it should be on-screen.

Similarly, I think we should have seen what led to Buffy forming the Slayer army and stealing items to do it, instead of having it unfold in flashback. It's the same problem I have with "Lost" and the new season of "Heroes," --how can you buy the motivation if you don't see it until weeks or months later and it's backfilled in? It's like what was done with Cordy turning evil. Mostly, watching the episodes beforehand is "WTF?" and the big reveal doesn't feel like a natural plot twist but a writer thinking "oops, better explain."

Season 6 to me is like Joss Whedon's answer to Kid A. Some people love it, and applaud Joss for the bold new direction he took. And others just hate it and wonder what the hell he was thinking. And they wanted him to go back into the studio and make another version of season two (and that would be the camp I fall into.)

Jeff already explained how the seeds of this were sown, and it was not only a metaphor for drug use, but how power corrupts. In retrospect, aside from the musical episode, it was one of the few stand out moments of that season.

And have you read Queen Of The Slayers? I'm not sure if it's canon, but Nancy Holder does provide some good filler and attempts to explain what Buffy was doing after the series, in her excursions in Rome. If it is, than it does provide the bridge between the end of the series and season eight. Though I will put forth a caveat and say it may not officially be cannon. It's a good read if you can get it.

[The Xenos]

Well. That.. was nice. C'mon. Cute Asian girl has the hots for you. Can you blame her? Plus I sure the hell like this better than say Riley or some guys she was with. Though this seems more like a fling than a relationship. (Poor Satsu.) Oooo. It was with another woman. Whoop.

Plus.. I think the bigger surprise.. Dracula's back.

Also, Japanese vampires who seem to read too much Gothic Lolita Bible. WTF?

[KenK]

As a hardcore Buffy fan who still has a bit of a soft spot for the Kristy Swanson movie, I could care less who Buffy makes the beast with two backs with. From the point where she lost her virginity to her lover, who subsequently turned evil as a direct result of their amorous coupling, I've never held out hope of Buffy engaging in a normal, healthy relationship with anyone. And once she bumped uglies with Spike, I KNEW all bets were off. And with that in mind, Buffy gettin' it on with another women, not so outrageous to me. What's somewhat jacked up about it is the dynamic between Buffy and the other Slayers. They're all essentially subordinates, with Buffy in a position of authority. Like if Giles and Buffy had ever had sex. Now THAT would be an unforgivable, out-of-character moment! Although Ripper could brag about baggin' two generations of Summers women! :D

[Teh m0nk3y]

And have you read Queen Of The Slayers? I'm not sure if it's canon, but Nancy Holder does provide some good filler and attempts to explain what Buffy was doing after the series, in her excursions in Rome. If it is, than it does provide the bridge between the end of the series and season eight. Though I will put forth a caveat and say it may not officially be cannon. It's a good read if you can get it.

Some parts of Queen of the Slayers are currently in canon, but have undergone several small retcons. Other parts have obviously been ignored since Season eight is following it's own stories.

[DarkCrisis]

I love season 8. And I just got done watching the whole tv series recently.

I can see Buffy using someone for sex. Even a woman. She's open minded. And if you notice in the text, Satsu did all the work. Buffy was basicly just getting off.


And BTW Lorne wasnt/isnt gay. He's just sauve.

[BnL]

Well. That.. was nice. C'mon. Cute Asian girl has the hots for you. Can you blame her? Plus I sure the hell like this better than say Riley or some guys she was with.

I think I'm in the minority, because I loved Riley. As a matter of fact, Buffy's relationship with Riley was the only one I liked. Her relationship with Angel annoyed the hell out of me. In fact, I thought I hated the character until he got his own show, at which point I realized that I didn't hate the character, just his relationship with Buffy. Riley is the only one of her boyfriends that I would actually date. I like the sweet and wholesome guys (minus that whole business of getting sucked off by vampires, of course).

[JeffreyWKramer]

I think I'm in the minority, because I loved Riley. As a matter of fact, Buffy's relationship with Riley was the only one I liked. Her relationship with Angel annoyed the hell out of me. In fact, I thought I hated the character until he got his own show, at which point I realized that I didn't hate the character, just his relationship with Buffy. Riley is the only one of her boyfriends that I would actually date. I like the sweet and wholesome guys (minus that whole business of getting sucked off by vampires, of course).

You're definitely in the minority. I read somewhere that Buffy fans were polled as to who they would like to see Buffy with other than Angel or Spike, and out of the given options - practically every male that appeared in more than a handfull of the episodes - Riley came in dead last. Even Andrew beat him by a substantial margin.

[diana_fan]

Well, I'm in that minority too. I liked Riley.

[Corrina]

My oldest two kids are old enough to have watched Buffy. They hated Riley pretty much on first sight.

I think, in theory, he's the type of person that Buffy should have a good relationship with. Except in practice, I couldn't stand him because he kept telling Buffy *how* she should feel, and how she should change, and how she never did this or that right. He put the responsibility for the way he behaved on Buffy, rather than himself, too. "Oh, you're the Slayer and I'm not and I'm not strong enough anymore, so I'll just go let vamps suck on me and it's because you're ignoring me and not tending to my needs even though your mother just had brain surgery."

He's one of those Nice Guys (tm) who are not really nice at all.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Well, I'm in that minority too. I liked Riley.

I like the character well enough, but there was really no chemistry between him and Buffy.

[beetlebum]

Some parts of Queen of the Slayers are currently in canon, but have undergone several small retcons. Other parts have obviously been ignored since Season eight is following it's own stories.

I figured that much. The part about Buffy's relationship with the Immortal being pretty much a farce was added, with a slight alteration as well.

And not to mention the fact that at the end of the book:

Angel and Spike were purported to have died fighting in Los Angeles; and a union between all three of them produced a child that helped win the book's climactic battle. That's obviously null and void, due to Angel: After The Fall.

[beetlebum]

Riley was boring. He was a nice guy, and ideally, Buffy should end up with a guy like that. The thing is though, Buffy ended up pushing him away, and that was partially due to her need to be on top of everything, so to speak. Riley ended up feeling useless and that's part of the reason why he began to frequent those vampire brothels. They made him feel wanted.

As we all know, it didn't work out. And thus follows the reciprocal pattern of the tragic love life of one Buffy Summers.

[AllisterH]

My oldest two kids are old enough to have watched Buffy. They hated Riley pretty much on first sight.

I think, in theory, he's the type of person that Buffy should have a good relationship with. Except in practice, I couldn't stand him because he kept telling Buffy *how* she should feel, and how she should change, and how she never did this or that right. He put the responsibility for the way he behaved on Buffy, rather than himself, too. "Oh, you're the Slayer and I'm not and I'm not strong enough anymore, so I'll just go let vamps suck on me and it's because you're ignoring me and not tending to my needs even though your mother just had brain surgery."

He's one of those Nice Guys (tm) who are not really nice at all.

When was this?

Riley, did try to support Buffy but she basically pushed him away. When Buffy's mom died, Riley tried to be supportive and even there, Buffy was pushing him away.

Of course he's going to feel not wanted.

[beetlebum]

I think a lot of hate for Buffy comes from mostly males who don't watch and have never watched Buffy and claim that because it deals with feelings and people and has a female lead that its target audience is females and mostly young teenage females.

I seen people post threads over the internet who rant about how its a chick show and its evident they clearly never watched it or watched more than a few minutes of it because they clearly don't know what they are talking about.

I mean Honestly if anyone in their right mind thought that a show about a person who goes around dusting vampires and fighting demons was aimed directly at more females then males, they they need to get their brain checked.

Yes There are probably more female fans of the show then male, but its got more violence and action then any guy could ask for, plus great comedy and characters, its not just aimed at one age group or one gender.


I think its those kinds of people that are upset that Buffy is so much involved in pop culture now, is so popular with people other than their ignorant selves that they just trash the character whenever they can for the sake of it.

As for my favorite character Ever in both Buffy/Angel its hands down without a doubt Faith for I think obvious reasons. I think shes the best Slayer to date and then I throw Kendra and then I even like Kennedy more often than not then Buffy, thats not to say Buffy is a bad slayer.

Nail. Hit head. That pretty much sums it up right there. I would also like to add that amongst some of them, they may use Buffy as an outlet to express their frustrations and channeling their angst from other areas of life into loathing her. It's just another way to make themselves feel better.

It's the only explanation that I can think of that explains the rabid hatred of her.

[Corrina]

Riley also slept with Faith in Buffy's body, IIRC.

[Puma]

Riley also slept with Faith in Buffy's body, IIRC.

Yup. Before he and Buffy did the deed.

[diana_fan]

Riley also slept with Faith in Buffy's body, IIRC.

To be fair to Riley, she basically attacked him.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Riley also slept with Faith in Buffy's body, IIRC.

While Xander slept with Faith in her own body.

Which puts Xander one up on Riley, it seems to me.

[diana_fan]

While Xander slept with Faith in her own body.

Which puts Xander one up on Riley, it seems to me.

Oh, snap!

:)

[Corrina]

To be fair to Riley, she basically attacked him.

Well, yeah, but here's the thing...

Riley knows there's supernatural stuff going on all the time. So if his gf is acting weird, that might be a clue about something. I can see why he did it but I can see why Buffy wouldn't really completely trust him after that.

The thing is, Riley never did anything to earn the trust that he demanded from Buffy. He demanded that she never hid things from him but he always hid things from her, even from the start. He demanded honesty but it was a one way street. And then he wondered why Buffy shut him out? Saying "Buffy drove him to the vamps with her lack of attention" is dumb. There's so many other things that Riley could have done instead of letting vamps suck on him.

Don't get me started on Riley's wife, Mary Sue Riley. Ugh.

[BnL]

I can't really hold that against him. It's not like he knowingly did it.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Yup. Before he and Buffy did the deed.

Nope, he and Buffy clearly were sexual no later than Episode 13 of Season 4, "The I in Team" (the episode that featured the creepiness of Maggie Walsh spying on Riley and Buffy fucking), whereas him getting jiggy with Faith in Buffy's body was three episodes later, in "Who Are You?"

Much as I wasn't fond of the Riley/Buffy relationship, I think we can maybe forgive him this particular oversight, as he wasn't exactly at his best at that point in time. In the episodes immediately preceeding that one, his whole world crashed with the revelation that Maggie Walsh had tried to kill Buffy, then she was herself killed by Adam, then Riley found out about Adam and what the Initiative was really all about. Given all he was dealing with, it wouldn't be too surprising that he didn't notice something was up with Buffy.

[beetlebum]

Well, yeah, but here's the thing...

Riley knows there's supernatural stuff going on all the time. So if his gf is acting weird, that might be a clue about something. I can see why he did it but I can see why Buffy wouldn't really completely trust him after that.

The thing is, Riley never did anything to earn the trust that he demanded from Buffy. He demanded that she never hid things from him but he always hid things from her, even from the start. He demanded honesty but it was a one way street. And then he wondered why Buffy shut him out? Saying "Buffy drove him to the vamps with her lack of attention" is dumb. There's so many other things that Riley could have done instead of letting vamps suck on him.

Don't get me started on Riley's wife, Mary Sue Riley. Ugh.

And don't forget how soon they got married! ;) :D

[Corrina]

Yes, but my point is that *Buffy* probably wouldn't be that forgiving of it, deep down. Not tell the difference between her and Faith? I mean, ouch!

[JeffreyWKramer]

The thing is, Riley never did anything to earn the trust that he demanded from Buffy. He demanded that she never hid things from him but he always hid things from her, even from the start. He demanded honesty but it was a one way street. And then he wondered why Buffy shut him out?

This is true. And then he started getting all insecure that Buffy wouldn't be interested in him if he wasn't as tough as he'd been when all amped up by the Initiative (a wonderful metaphor for insecure guys that are threatened by strong, independent, competent women who might outdo them in some area).

Don't get me started on Riley's wife, Mary Sue Riley. Ugh.

Yeah, that particular one is among my least favorite episodes of the show.

[BnL]

Yes, but my point is that *Buffy* probably wouldn't be that forgiving of it, deep down. Not tell the difference between her and Faith? I mean, ouch!

Yeah, good point.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Yes, but my point is that *Buffy* probably wouldn't be that forgiving of it, deep down. Not tell the difference between her and Faith? I mean, ouch!

Hopefully he wasn't dumb enough to compare the two. Or ask Buffy something along the lines of "Say, could you try out that thing with the teeth that Faith did?"

His surviving the season suggests that probably didn't occur, which means Riley wasn't totally stupid.

[diana_fan]

Yes, but my point is that *Buffy* probably wouldn't be that forgiving of it, deep down. Not tell the difference between her and Faith? I mean, ouch!

Oh, I understand her response. Believe me.

But I also understand his response.

[Puma]

Nope, he and Buffy clearly were sexual no later than Episode 13 of Season 4, "The I in Team" (the episode that featured the creepiness of Maggie Walsh spying on Riley and Buffy fucking), whereas him getting jiggy with Faith in Buffy's body was three episodes later, in "Who Are You?"

Much as I wasn't fond of the Riley/Buffy relationship, I think we can maybe forgive him this particular oversight, as he wasn't exactly at his best at that point in time. In the episodes immediately preceeding that one, his whole world crashed with the revelation that Maggie Walsh had tried to kill Buffy, then she was herself killed by Adam, then Riley found out about Adam and what the Initiative was really all about. Given all he was dealing with, it wouldn't be too surprising that he didn't notice something was up with Buffy.

My bad. I really never liked season 4- especially Riley, so my memories of them are hazy *grin*

[beetlebum]

Well, I don't think we can completely dismiss Buffy's actions. Causation comes into effect. I do agree that Riley could have tried to channel his outlet into other areas, and not have been so selfish. But the thing is though, Buffy was pushing him away. That had to play some part.

[diana_fan]

My bad. I really never liked season 4- especially Riley, so my memories of them are hazy *grin*

You know, I wasn't a fan of S4 when it aired. And it definitely had it's problems. But when I basically watched it straight through on DVD, it played much better.

[Red Jack]

I think the point of Riley was that he was exaclty what Buffy claimed she always wanted: a normal guy who could (at least in theory) handle her lifestyle.

In fact most guys couldn't. The sort of guy who gravitates to that sort of life and is the traditional, down to earth sort, is least likely to be able to easily handle a girl who can toss him through a wall.

And Buffy treated him not so well. He was an object to her, never really let into her inner workings (feelings, pervs. Stop). He even looked a little like Angel which cannot have been an accident casting-wise.

I never much cared for him but their relationship was extremely uneven with him as the clear loser.

His swing to a girl who was "like" buffy but not enough to be challenging was entirely in character from where I sit. Essentially he did with his wife what Buffy had done to him.

We train people how to be in the world by how we treat them. Riley learned Buffy's lesson very well.

[beetlebum]

You know, I wasn't a fan of S4 when it aired. And it definitely had it's problems. But when I basically watched it straight through on DVD, it played much better.

I liked season four. Mainly because I was in high school at the time, so I could relate to Buffy who was trying to find herself and just navigate her way through university, as well as life.

I loved "Living Conditions", mainly because the demon metaphor, and the problems between Kathy and Buffy very much reminded me of the squabbles between me, my half sister, and my mother. And at times, demon encounters would have been preferable to the rows we got into. Ah, women. ;)

[JeffreyWKramer]

My bad. I really never liked season 4- especially Riley, so my memories of them are hazy *grin*

I can't say I blame you. In my opinion, 4 is probably the weakest of the seasons, though there nonetheless several truly excellent episodes ("Fear Itself", "Pangs", "Hush", the two Faith eps, "New Moon Rising" and "Restless). The Initiative stuff just mostly fell flat, for me anyhow.

[beetlebum]

I can't say I blame you. In my opinion, 4 is probably the weakest of the seasons, though there nonetheless several truly excellent episodes ("Fear Itself", "Pangs", "Hush", the two Faith eps, "New Moon Rising" and "Restless). The Initiative stuff just mostly fell flat, for me anyhow.

"Hush" was probably one of the greatest Buffy episodes ever. The drawings and the hand motions had me laughing out loud. I did enjoy it, although Buffy's scream was just as ghastly as any gentlemen demons. =p

"Pang" was a great episode where ambiguity comes into play, and we see Buffy truly conflicted over killing a bad guy. I liked it because it acknowledged the nuanced, complexities of this world. And plus I loved the follow up on Angel, "I Will Remember You." It's probably my favourite Angel episodes, ever.

As for "Fear, Itself", I also liked the metaphors in that one. I'm often fond of quoting lines from the episode, and for those moments when I do feel like I'm alone, or am afraid, I just think back to that episode and remember that my fear is only as big as I let it get. And I can, eventually, just squash it. :)

[Puma]

I can't say I blame you. In my opinion, 4 is probably the weakest of the seasons, though there nonetheless several truly excellent episodes ("Fear Itself", "Pangs", "Hush", the two Faith eps, "New Moon Rising" and "Restless). The Initiative stuff just mostly fell flat, for me anyhow.

Those were good but yes, the whole Adam/Secret government as the big bad was a letdown after season three.

[diana_fan]

I can't say I blame you. In my opinion, 4 is probably the weakest of the seasons, though there nonetheless several truly excellent episodes ("Fear Itself", "Pangs", "Hush", the two Faith eps, "New Moon Rising" and "Restless). The Initiative stuff just mostly fell flat, for me anyhow.

It did worse: It was boring. And that's something that Buffy had never been. Also, Adam as the Big Bad? No. Just effin' no.

But I agree that there were standout individual episodes. Like I said, though, I felt it played much better without the interminable breaks.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Yeah, I really can't help but wonder sometimes if how boring all the Initiative/Adam stuff was didn't reflect some unconscious desire to show something along the lines of "all that X-FILESish secret government conspiracy stuff is so lame, BUFFY is so much cooler than all that stuff."

Probably the coolest thing about Adam was the way Buffy and crew defeated him in "Primeval". The uber-Buffy with Giles, Willow and Xander infusing her was pretty darn cool.

[beetlebum]

Yeah, I really can't help but wonder sometimes if how boring all the Initiative/Adam stuff was didn't reflect some unconscious desire to show something along the lines of "all that X-FILESish secret government conspiracy stuff is so lame, BUFFY is so much cooler than all that stuff."

Probably the coolest thing about Adam was the way Buffy and crew defeated him in "Primeval". The uber-Buffy with Giles, Willow and Xander infusing her was pretty darn cool.

I liked the X-Files stuff. But as for " Primeval", the best part of the episode was seeing the first slayer, and having her reveal to Buffy that "death is your gift."

[JeffreyWKramer]

"Hush" was probably one of the greatest Buffy episodes ever. The drawings and the hand motions had me laughing out loud. I did enjoy it, although Buffy's scream was just as ghastly as any gentlemen demons. =p

"Pang" was a great episode where ambiguity comes into play, and we see Buffy truly conflicted over killing a bad guy. I liked it because it acknowledged the nuanced, complexities of this world. And plus I loved the follow up on Angel, "I Will Remember You." It's probably my favourite Angel episodes, ever.

As for "Fear, Itself", I also liked the metaphors in that one. I'm often fond of quoting lines from the episode, and for those moments when I do feel like I'm alone, or am afraid, I just think back to that episode and remember that my fear is only as big as I let it get. And I can, eventually, just squash it. :)
Yep, all good ones. My love for "New Moon Rising" is largely based on the ending, when Willow has said goodbye to Oz and she goes to Tara, and Tara assumes that she's about to be dumped, but that isn't the case at all. That is one of the most touching romantic moments in the entire series.

"Pangs" is a personal favorite of my wife's, mostly because Spike is funny as hell in that episode and she's a huge Spike fan. We watch that one every Thanksgiving. Beats the hell out of a lame Lions game.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I liked the X-Files stuff. But as for " Primeval", the best part of the episode was seeing the first slayer, and having her reveal to Buffy that "death is your gift."

That was "Restless, the season finale. "Primeval" was the one with the end of Adam and the Initiative.

It's a pretty good sign how lame Adam was, and how tiring the Initiative got, that the season's "Big Bad" didn't even survive to the end of the season.

"Restless," however, is indeed a truly incredible episode.

[beetlebum]

Yep, all good ones. My love for "New Moon Rising" is largely based on the ending, when Willow has said goodbye to Oz and she goes to Tara, and Tara assumes that she's about to be dumped, but that isn't the case at all. That is one of the most touching romantic moments in the entire series.

"Pangs" is a personal favorite of my wife's, mostly because Spike is funny as hell in that episode and she's a huge Spike fan. We watch that one every Thanksgiving. Beats the hell out of a lame Lions game.

I can't believe I forgot about "New Moon Rising"! That episode was so sad. :(

But, otoh, I'm glad that Willow hooked up with Tara. :)

Oh, and I do the same thing with "Pangs" every Thanksgiving. And I watch "Surprise" and "Helpless" on my birthday, as well as "Revelations" on Christmas. Lord help me, I'm obsessed. :p

[beetlebum]

That was "Restless, the season finale. "Primeval" was the one with the end of Adam and the Initiative.

It's a pretty good sign how lame Adam was, and how tiring the Initiative got, that the season's "Big Bad" didn't even survive to the end of the season.

"Restless," however, is indeed a truly incredible episode.

Whoops. A-heh. Thanks. :o

And yeah, it was a great episode.

Speaking of which, I was watching "Tabula Rasa" earlier today. As heartbreaking as seeing Tara leave Willow, and Giles leave Buffy was, I do admit I loved seeing Buffy run around thinking she was "Joan", and Anya and Giles bicker like they were truly, engaged. The comedic timing by the actors was great, and it made the heart breaking ending a bit easier to swallow.

[diana_fan]

I can't believe I forgot about "New Moon Rising"! That episode was so sad. :(

But, otoh, I'm glad that Willow hooked up with Tara. :)

Oh, and I do the same thing with "Pangs" every Thanksgiving. And I watch "Surprise" and "Helpless" on my birthday, as well as "Revelations" on Christmas. Lord help me, I'm obsessed. :p

I think we all are. And I also think that's a good thing. :)

[beetlebum]

Yes, we are! ;) :D :)

[jerrymcl89]

I'm pretty sure "Pangs" was not actually in S4. I think it was in season 2.

ETA: My mistake - I was thinking of "Phases"

As far as the seasons go:

1 was the training wheels season. I didn't think the show became what it was until "Prophecy Girl", the finale.

I've always thought seasons 2 and 5, in different ways, were the best the show ever was. The threats to Buffy were the most personal, and the supporting cast was all working in a good way.

Season 3 is a bit less good. But the Faith arc was excellent, and the Mayor made a great, funny, and still menacing villian.

Season 6 was very ambitious, and I like a lot about it. But it didn't entirely work. I do like that it erred on the side of ambition, though.

Seasons 4 and 7 both contained some of the show's best episodes, but neither worked as a larger story. And S7 really suffered from a feeling that everyone started working on their resumes around episode 9 or so.

[beetlebum]

I'm pretty sure "Pangs" was not actually in S4. I think it was in season 2.

As far as the seasons go:

1 was the training wheels season. I didn't think the show became what it was until "Prophecy Girl", the finale.

I've always thought seasons 2 and 5, in different ways, were the best the show ever was. The threats to Buffy were the most personal, and the supporting cast was all working in a good way.

Season 3 is a bit less good. But the Faith arc was excellent, and the Mayor made a great, funny, and still menacing villian.

Season 6 was very ambitious, and I like a lot about it. But it didn't entirely work. I do like that it erred on the side of ambition, though.

Seasons 4 and 7 both contained some of the show's best episodes, but neither worked as a larger story. And S7 really suffered from a feeling that everyone started working on their resumes around episode 9 or so.

Er, what? :confused:.

No, it was in season four, mate.

http://www.buffyguide.com/episodes/episodes4.shtml

[Sabrinaset]

Would Buffy be an existentialist, an idealist, or a post-structuralist? :confused:

[TCJohnson]

I can't say I blame you. In my opinion, 4 is probably the weakest of the seasons, though there nonetheless several truly excellent episodes ("Fear Itself", "Pangs", "Hush", the two Faith eps, "New Moon Rising" and "Restless). The Initiative stuff just mostly fell flat, for me anyhow.

I did enjoy what they did to Spike that season, with the implant.

[Sabrinaset]

I did enjoy what they did to Spike that season, with the implant.

Whoa! Spike got implants?

I really gotta watch this show!

[jerrymcl89]

Er, what? :confused:.

No, it was in season four, mate.

http://www.buffyguide.com/episodes/episodes4.shtml

True. I was thinking of "Phases", which I believe was in S2. I'm wrong.

[BnL]

Whoa! Spike got implants?

I really gotta watch this show!

Don't get so excited, it's not the kind of implant you're thinking of.

It was penile.

[Corrina]

I can't say I blame you. In my opinion, 4 is probably the weakest of the seasons, though there nonetheless several truly excellent episodes ("Fear Itself", "Pangs", "Hush", the two Faith eps, "New Moon Rising" and "Restless). The Initiative stuff just mostly fell flat, for me anyhow.

Doesn't Four also have the one with "Buffy Want Beer?"

I have an irrational fondness for that episode.