Penance - Relentless #5 (of 5)

[TheCrisisKid]

Wow, this was a great comic and a great series overall. I really liked it, and I wish Marvel made this kind of quality stuff more often. I loved the ending, and I look forward to seeing what happens to Speedball/Penance/Robbie in the future.

What did everyone else think?

[drwho]

This is definitely something worth getting as a trade, or back issue. I didnt buy it but I paged through the issue and it had some head popping art in it with a lot of action. ;)

[A-Man]

Well, I'm having mixed feelings about this, but the final issue did serve as an effective ending. And Baldwin beating Wolverine so easily earlier (which just seemed silly) has also been put into a different perspective.
I wonder if any of this will be adressed in Thunderbolts?

[Kefky]

I thought this was really awful and forced, like something that got away from the '90's, where every hero desperately tried to gritty and hardcore 'cause it was cool.


But hey, nice to see Jenkins admit that he pretty much turned this character into a psychopath in the best Hostel tradition.

[Mani]

i actually logged on to ask a question regarding this one, glad someone already got the thread rolling.

i'm sure there's a good answer, but wasn't nitro killed in the submariner series, when namor used him to destroy atlantis and escape SHIELD? how does that fit in here? or am i just missing something entirely?

[LungerTony]

i actually logged on to ask a question regarding this one, glad someone already got the thread rolling.

i'm sure there's a good answer, but wasn't nitro killed in the submariner series, when namor used him to destroy atlantis and escape SHIELD? how does that fit in here? or am i just missing something entirely?

Even though I bought the Namor mini...I can't remember the details, but I am pretty sure he didn't use Nitro to create the explosion that blew up Atlantis. It was some terrorist bomb the Atlantean terrorists were going to use on the surface...if I remember correctly.

Anyway, I liked this mini. I dug the definitive ending. I would've liked a more clear picture of jacked up Nitro.
But this was cool for Penance, who I admittingly am not crazy of - too emo.
But this series really impressed me with its portrayel of Penance as troubled to the point his is pretty much an insane person for his role in Stamford.

Great series. Totally recommend it whether your a Penance fan or not.

[CyberCoyote]

What was the final act? Spoilers?

[prodigy]

What was the final act? Spoilers?
Penance tortures Nitro.

Turns out that bondage suit was actually intended for NITRO, not Penance.

He beats down Nitro, hard. A strike for every death from Stamford (Robbie also memorized the names, ages, and occupations of every victim).

Then puts the spikey suit on Nitro and all the pain and power and yadda yadda basically somehow gets funneled into Robbie.


Overall, Jenkins... Not only have you given Marvel a nice, big set of admirable testicles but you have my respect. Beer is on me if I ever meet you. Robbie Baldwin is officially an OG badass.


Robbie's treatment of Nitro should be standard procedure for every villain that a hero has a beef with.

[drwho]

How could you leave out the best part where nitro's head gets popped off?

[prodigy]

This issue is without a doubt, 10 stars out of 3. A landmark issue in the world of comics. This is a milestone. I think this has elevated comic books to the next level.

I'm still speechless, damnit. Penance is just... Good gosh... That was badass supreme.


Brubaker could never write anything this good. Which is why I don't like him.

THIS IS HOW YOU SETTLE DIFFERENCES, GENTLEMEN.

I need a list compiled of the top 10 showdowns. This would easily be number one.... through ten. That's right. This should be repeated multiple times.


I'm still giddy.

Penance is that dude.


How could you leave out the best part where nitro's head gets popped off?

What do you mean? Nitro wasn't killed.

[DeadXMan]

prod, can't just prise a book without bashing another?

other then that I agree with you 100%


I was hearing stuck in the middle with you at the panel were the torture was about to begin

[The Adventurer]

Penance tortures Nitro.

Turns out that bondage suit was actually intended for NITRO, not Penance.

He beats down Nitro, hard. A strike for every death from Stamford (Robbie also memorized the names, ages, and occupations of every victim).

Then puts the spikey suit on Nitro and all the pain and power and yadda yadda basically somehow gets funneled into Robbie.


Overall, Jenkins... Not only have you given Marvel a nice, big set of admirable testicles but you have my respect. Beer is on me if I ever meet you. Robbie Baldwin is officially an OG badass.


Robbie's treatment of Nitro should be standard procedure for every villain that a hero has a beef with.

Wow. That sounds like the most awful thing ever written.

[DeadXMan]

think marvel version of Mr. Blond

[drwho]

Well what gave me the impression cus i didnt read this was in one panel it showed nitro's head in the costume and a few panels later if I recall it showed the costume but there wasn't a head sticking out and there was a scene to me that looked like he was twisting the helmet. I just assumed the worst.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

This might actually be my favourite book of the year so far. The series was consistently strong, and the characterisation pretty much note perfect.

[NormanB]

I thought this was really awful and forced, like something that got away from the '90's, where every hero desperately tried to gritty and hardcore 'cause it was cool.


Yeah.... no.

Nothing awful or forced about this mini. Well-written, excellent pace, just a great character-driven story.

[Will.S]

Yeah.... no.

Nothing awful or forced about this mini. Well-written, excellent pace, just a great character-driven story.
While I actually enjoyed the mini a great deal, you have to really work with the direction Marvel gave Speedball and not expect him to go back to that character to buy into it.

It's getting harder and harder to see Marvel revert Robbie back to Speedball, especially with all the visual and physical stuff being done to him. That is unless he offhandedly refers to Penance as his "emo" phase but even then a lot of serious stuff went down in the T-Bolts book and this mini.

[Cruelly_Innocent]

Great ending! I thought that this mini-series was going to be crap...but it gave so many answers (at least to my question) I think Robbie is gettin' cooler everyday, and loved the idea for the Penance-suit;)

[CyberCoyote]

So is Robbie 'Speedball' again, or is it something else now?

[NormanB]

I don't think Speedball is coming back any time soon.

[Frank]

This issue is without a doubt, 10 stars out of 3. A landmark issue in the world of comics. This is a milestone. I think this has elevated comic books to the next level.

I'm still speechless, damnit. Penance is just... Good gosh... That was badass supreme.


Brubaker could never write anything this good. Which is why I don't like him.

THIS IS HOW YOU SETTLE DIFFERENCES, GENTLEMEN.

I need a list compiled of the top 10 showdowns. This would easily be number one.... through ten. That's right. This should be repeated multiple times.


I'm still giddy.

Penance is that dude.



What do you mean? Nitro wasn't killed.


hahaha what does Brubaker have to do with this? You praise of the Penance book made me take notice but why Brubaker? Look Paul Jenkins wrote that and his recent Sentry mini-series sucked.

[prodigy]

hahaha what does Brubaker have to do with this? You praise of the Penance book made me take notice but why Brubaker? Look Paul Jenkins wrote that and his recent Sentry mini-series sucked.
I really, really dislike Brubaker.



While I actually enjoyed the mini a great deal, you have to really work with the direction Marvel gave Speedball and not expect him to go back to that character to buy into it.

It's getting harder and harder to see Marvel revert Robbie back to Speedball, especially with all the visual and physical stuff being done to him. That is unless he offhandedly refers to Penance as his "emo" phase but even then a lot of serious stuff went down in the T-Bolts book and this mini.
You're confused, man.

And now I am too trying to understand what you're getting at.


not expect him to go back to that character
This doesn't make any sense. What character? Robbie is Penance now. He didn't hop back and forth between anybody. He was Speedball, and now he is Penance.



It's getting harder and harder to see Marvel revert Robbie back to Speedball,
Because your ESP is lying to you, my friend. He isn't going to. I highly doubt Marvel went out and told everyone that this whole Penance thing is just a phase that he'll soon grow out of.


Anyway. If Robbie is stuck as Penance, that'd be great. Who else in the Marvel U has had a fall from grace like this? And STAYED being all dark?



Wow. That sounds like the most awful thing ever written.
And what do you consider to be the best?

[Monty_Cristo]

I don't think Speedball is coming back any time soon.

the Initiative already has Hardball and Butterball. there'd be too much competition.

[Capt USA]

I loved this series. It allows me to forgive Jenkins somewhat for making Captain America an idiot.

[Will.S]

You're confused, man.

And now I am too trying to understand what you're getting at.
What I'm saying is that if you were a fan of the previous Speedball identity Robbie had (which I was a fan of) and you are still able to go along with the whole Civil War Penance change; then you have to fully accept that Robbie isn't going back to the Speedball identity anytime soon to fully accept this mini. I think people who hate the change still feel that this was really forced, is hilariously bad, and is a complete 180 from what his character used to be in NW especially considering he's bald, hurts himself, has different powers, and has piercings all over including his nipples.


This doesn't make any sense. What character? Robbie is Penance now. He didn't hop back and forth between anybody. He was Speedball, and now he is Penance.
See above.


Because your ESP is lying to you, my friend. He isn't going to. I highly doubt Marvel went out and told everyone that this whole Penance thing is just a phase that he'll soon grow out of.

Anyway. If Robbie is stuck as Penance, that'd be great. Who else in the Marvel U has had a fall from grace like this? And STAYED being all dark?
I would honestly be surprised if it stuck past Quesada's tenure.

[Mani]

i personally don't have a problem with him staying penance, i think that this mini has been cleansing for him so while i don't think he'll be all rosy any time soon, i don't think he would necessarily have to be written as darkly as he was before.

would some people complain? sure, as we all have seen, people complain about everything, but what they say on the internet and what they say with their wallet can be very different and one speaks a lot louder to marvel than the other.

[jackolover]

This was such a good story from the point of view of Robbie Baldwin. We learnt about the points on his suit; the ritualistic numbering that he drilled himself with; and his long term plan for the perpetrator of the Stamford explosion.

Paul Jenkins created this tragic figure in CW:Frontline, of a hero who was going through even more condemnation than Cap, although with not the consequences of being put on trial. Guilt was being heaped on Robbie in such hard amounts, that the lively and humourous exterior was gradually chipped away, with the final assassination attempt sending him over the critical barrier, into a morbid self-destruction, we thought. And all along, Jenkins harboured this nagging disturbance in Robbie, that ground away at him, as the suit punctured him in the heart, until he sought out the relief that never comes, in the person of the destructor. The destructor of Robbies world, at least, in Nitro.

It gives an indication that there is a part of Robbie that does function apart from the pain. We, as readers, had to know what comes out of a suit like the one Penance had made. We saw what we thought went into it, and once the suit was sealed, the character of the person became a sort of sword box, walking, talking, syndrome of death. How can anybody survive that kind of pain in the name of Penance?

The plot to ressurect Robbie Baldwin was elaborate and very well planned. We saw a very smart and mature man concoct a decisive course of action to achieve a very particular end result. The mutilation of the destructor. Most villains are not made to feel the pain of the loss they cause, and are arrogant and unrepentant. But Nitro was made to feel pin points and needles the like of which no villain has had to endure before. Nitro was given the responsibility for his actions, the SHRA couldn't deliver to other villains, during the war and the Initiative. If there was a point to Paul Jenkins use of Penance and Nitro, it was to illustrate what the consequences were to destructive actions. For any actions, there was going to a price to pay, and the days of brief confinements, and happy escapes, was going to be a thing of the past.

Jenkins gave us a conclusion to the unhappy plight of Robbie Baldwin, with Robs journey from a happy-go-lucky lark, through the baptism of reality, until the conclusion of his life, still his backbone riddled with splinters of metal, yet surfacing with a pride and duty like ordinary men. This reconciliation with himself and his demons, where he gave vent to all his pent-up rage at the only one who could join him in the degradation, that was wrought on him, Nitro, put paid to the dark, brooding, Robbie Baldwin, and maybe released enough energy to exhaust the cruelty he showered on the other man, destined to share his fate.

I am excited about where Robbie goes from here.

[The Adventurer]

And what do you consider to be the best?

Uh... DC: The New Frontier.

But since that's not Marvel, I gotta say... Marvels. Or Earth X. To be more recent... Annihilation. Nova is pretty much the best ongoing title Marvel has right now.


Jack Staff, Fables, and 2000AD are the best current ongoing comics.


Anyway, the way you guys describe this title, it sounds like the most trite garbage ever. And coming from Marvel that's a challenge since there's so much trite garbage coming out of Marvel right now.l

[prodigy]

then you have to fully accept that Robbie isn't going back to the Speedball identity anytime soon to fully accept this mini.
DUUUUUH! That's a total given.

You say that like it's even remotely implied anywhere that you're supposed to believe otherwise.

That's the point. He's changed. Time to move on. What doubt is there lingering that he's gonna change back? None. Soooo... You're sort of stating useless info here.



I think people who hate the change still feel that this was really forced, is hilariously bad, and is a complete 180 from what his character used to be in NW especially considering he's bald, hurts himself, has different powers, and has piercings all over including his nipples.
Anyone who thinks it's "forced" is an idiot and should be dragged out into the street and beaten. And then lobotomized (well, this might be unnecessary as they're obviously stupid to begin with if they consider his change forced).

If it's forced, then how is it supposed to go? What better way is there?

You mean being publicly blamed for a massacre and all that other stuff isn't enough to drive someone nuts?



I would honestly be surprised if it stuck past Quesada's tenure.
Any writer who thinks they have the balls to revert Robbie back deserves to be assassinated.

Lets be rational here.

When Anakin became Darth Vader, did he change back to Anakin at the drop of a dime? No. It took his son being electrocuted to death to make him get redeemed.

[Slyfer]

Robbie Baldwin is officially an OG badass.


Truer words have never been said, Dude need his own book yo! Damn now thats Hardcore.

[Alan2099]

Anyone who thinks it's "forced" is an idiot and should be dragged out into the street and beaten. And then lobotomized (well, this might be unnecessary as they're obviously stupid to begin with if they consider his change forced).
And anybody that thinks Penance is even remotely close to being a decent idea is dumber than your average rock and should be sodomized by rabid howler monkeys.

I love the the whole "You don't agree with me so you're stupid and should die" mentality. ;)

[XPac]

Wow... it's pretty interesting positive the response is to this book, considering how negative an opinion a lot of people had about the character and writer going in the book.

I guess it's an instane where you can argue they actually did know what they were doing afterall. Or at least in the eyes of some.

Either way, I hope the character begins moving in a less emo-ish direction now. It kinda gets stale after a while.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

While I actually enjoyed the mini a great deal, you have to really work with the direction Marvel gave Speedball and not expect him to go back to that character to buy into it.

It's getting harder and harder to see Marvel revert Robbie back to Speedball, especially with all the visual and physical stuff being done to him. That is unless he offhandedly refers to Penance as his "emo" phase but even then a lot of serious stuff went down in the T-Bolts book and this mini.

Robbie will never go back to the pure silliness of Speedball. Which is really rather the point. He's been broken. He can't go back. But what can come from this afterwards is a more adult and aware Speedball. After a shit load of therapy, and casting aside his demons he will be able to move away from the silly teen persona and become an adult character, in the long run.

I hope Marvel have the balls to follow through with that. You would never have even considered the New Warriors Speedball could someday progress to being an Avenger. But I could see the post-Penance Robbie Baldwin someday being that. It'll take a lot of work, but it could happen.

[XPac]

Robbie works at it, maybe one day he'll be worthy enough to be with Squirrel Girl. That was a step in the right direction.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Robbie works at it, maybe one day he'll be worthy enough to be with Squirrel Girl. That was a step in the right direction.

And surely every hero's ultimate goal... ;)

[Alan2099]

Robbie will never go back to the pure silliness of Speedball. Which is really rather the point. He's been broken. He can't go back. But what can come from this afterwards is a more adult and aware Speedball. After a shit load of therapy, and casting aside his demons he will be able to move away from the silly teen persona and become an adult character, in the long run.

That's the thing though, Speedball has already went though a lot and has been shown to be a mature level headed individual when the time is nessisary. However he always found superheroing to be fun and would rather relax and enjoy himself than focus on the bad stuff. That's why he bounced around to begin with. The guy could control kinetic motion. He could essentially move anyway he wanted.

Speedball wasn't just a silly immature teen. He was just a young adult that had accepted who he was and decided to have fun with it. Heck, not too long ago in Marvel team-up, he watched everybody he knew get slaughtered and ended up stranded in a future timeline with no way to get home, and he was still cracking jokes.

The fault really lies with the writers here. Growing u stories are almost irresistible to them. Anybody that writers a teenaged hero or a hothead, or a jokster can't resist the urge to do the story where they "finally" grow up. Human Torch alone has "grown past his hotheadedness" more times than I can count.


You would never have even considered the New Warriors Speedball could someday progress to being an Avenger.
Well, sure, if you discount the time he formed a new team of New Warriors and led them or how he was a member of the Avengers shown in A-Next that the younger heroes looked up to and respected, if that's the case, then you probably couldn't picture him as an Avenger. Because that would require some actually knowledge about the character. You know, that stuff the current people writing him have no clue about.

[jackolover]

Robbie will never go back to the pure silliness of Speedball. Which is really rather the point. He's been broken. He can't go back. But what can come from this afterwards is a more adult and aware Speedball. After a shit load of therapy, and casting aside his demons he will be able to move away from the silly teen persona and become an adult character, in the long run.


When I saw that delusional waitress again at the end of the mini, I was wondering about Squirrel Girl, his old flame. I suppose now that he's emo, Robbie won't be hanging with a up-beat, positive chick like that ever again. Maybe the delusional waitress is more up Robbies path after all.

[Will.S]

When I saw that delusional waitress again at the end of the mini, I was wondering about Squirrel Girl, his old flame. I suppose now that he's emo, Robbie won't be hanging with a up-beat, positive chick like that ever again. Maybe the delusional waitress is more up Robbies path after all.Ehhh, I'd rather have an attractive delusional waitress than a buck toothed furry.

;)

[jackolover]

I just re-read the whole series again.

I think the colours of the whole series is one of the best I've seen by Beredo. Well worth a mention.

Penance makes about the best Iron Man I've seen, also. Much better than Tony Stark. This guy punishers bad guys, and walks right into their leers up into their faces. Not saying Doom is a bad guy, because Victor is the only who gave Robbie credit for the job of locating Nitro and punishing him, for all the victims of Stamford. Nobody else has done what Victor has.

We have a hanging plot-point from this series, that could come into something, in the future by Paul Jenkins. Robot Master gave evidence to the US on something important enough for Stromm to be put into protective custody, and that hasn't been revealed yet.

We have the FF put on protection duty at a nuclear facility like common folks. We have Sue being eyed on by Osborn like some piece of meat, and it is Sue who is delegated to address the insane Robbie Baldwin on the Falcon en route to Latveria. The Initiative has reduced the FF to some small manipulated strike team, and Tony Stark, compared to Penance, is just a beaurocratic administrator, not the Iron Man he once was.

It appears Wolverine was in on the whole scam to get the Falcon in issue #3, and that's not surprising, considering Logan failed to punish Nitro in his own book during CW.

Namor was mentioned as forming an alliance with Doom in this series, without actually showing Namors presence in Latveria, and as I've mentioned elsewhere, the 'Order' appearance of Namor took him out of the picture.

The nuclear arsenel that Doom now has in Latveria is directly in contravention of the disarmament agreement that was formalised with the US, although the US still has missiles trained against Latveria in similar contravention.

All in all, Penance is the only independantly functioning hero in the MU at the moment. All the others are being paid and have restrictions. Robbie? No. He has total independance and no one, it seems, wants to reign him in. At least in this Paul Jenkins sense he is. The main TBolts series, Penance is just another hack on the pay role. But for old time Marvel heroing, this mini had the heroics that we were all used too. No government intervention; in fact Robbie planned it out so well, the powers-that-be had no idea what he was doing, right up to the very end, AND, they couldn't do anything about it. That's dangerous, and from now on, the government will have plans of their own, on how to handle a mind capable of this kind of planning, and able to carry it out with his new power frame.

Robbie Balwin has turned into one formidible super hero. Even Tony Stark conceeds that Penance is one of the most powerful humans on the planet.

[jackolover]

Ehhh, I'd rather have an attractive delusional waitress than a buck toothed furry.

;)

Buck-toothed furry what....?

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I just re-read the whole series again.

I think the colours of the whole series is one of the best I've seen by Beredo. Well worth a mention.

I'd agree with that.


Penance makes about the best Iron Man I've seen, also. Much better than Tony Stark. This guy punishers bad guys, and walks right into their leers up into their faces. Not saying Doom is a bad guy, because Victor is the only who gave Robbie credit for the job of locating Nitro and punishing him, for all the victims of Stamford. Nobody else has done what Victor has.

Yeah, it's a rare individual who can fly into Doom's own back yard and look the guy in the eyes. Utterly fearless. Hinged by madness, of course, which heps. But utterly fearless nonetheless.


We have a hanging plot-point from this series, that could come into something, in the future by Paul Jenkins. Robot Master gave evidence to the US on something important enough for Stromm to be put into protective custody, and that hasn't been revealed yet.

Yes, this interest me, too. As this was sold as a Civil War spin-off - rather than Thunderbolts - I have to wonder if it wasn't something tied to the former.


We have the FF put on protection duty at a nuclear facility like common folks. We have Sue being eyed on by Osborn like some piece of meat, and it is Sue who is delegated to address the insane Robbie Baldwin on the Falcon en route to Latveria. The Initiative has reduced the FF to some small manipulated strike team, and Tony Stark, compared to Penance, is just a beaurocratic administrator, not the Iron Man he once was.

Yeah, it's great to see everybody's roles flipped in the case of whayt is believed to be a major international incident, or a matter of supreme national security.


It appears Wolverine was in on the whole scam to get the Falcon in issue #3, and that's not surprising, considering Logan failed to punish Nitro in his own book during CW.

That's how I read it, too. He never got to have his pay-back. And Logan would never have allowed Robbie to hand his ass to him, before the Thunderbolts arrived, under any other circumstances.


Namor was mentioned as forming an alliance with Doom in this series, without actually showing Namors presence in Latveria, and as I've mentioned elsewhere, the 'Order' appearance of Namor took him out of the picture.

Could well be.


The nuclear arsenel that Doom now has in Latveria is directly in contravention of the disarmament agreement that was formalised with the US, although the US still has missiles trained against Latveria in similar contravention.

Yeah! So who's the bigger b@st%rd? Lol. I hope that does get followed up on.


All in all, Penance is the only independantly functioning hero in the MU at the moment. All the others are being paid and have restrictions. Robbie? No. He has total independance and no one, it seems, wants to reign him in. At least in this Paul Jenkins sense he is. The main TBolts series, Penance is just another hack on the pay role. But for old time Marvel heroing, this mini had the heroics that we were all used too. No government intervention; in fact Robbie planned it out so well, the powers-that-be had no idea what he was doing, right up to the very end, AND, they couldn't do anything about it. That's dangerous, and from now on, the government will have plans of their own, on how to handle a mind capable of this kind of planning, and able to carry it out with his new power frame.

Absolutely. And the way in which that plan was plotted, and threaded through the series with clues dropped for the reader, was brilliant. It really does stand out.


Robbie Balwin has turned into one formidible super hero. Even Tony Stark conceeds that Penance is one of the most powerful humans on the planet.

And I really hope that that is continued with.

[LOIOSH30]

I'm really, REALLY not a fan of what they've done to Speedball...But everything I've heard about this series has been pretty positive. I guess I'll have to buy the trade and check it out.

[Will.S]

Buck-toothed furry what....?
I was referring to Squirrel Girl.

[jackolover]

I was referring to Squirrel Girl.

Yeah. I gathered that. I was being facetious.

[Laughing Mask]

this was very well done.

very well done.

also the covers rocked.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k4/greyshirt2/Comics/Marvel/Thunderbolts/PENANCE.jpg
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k4/greyshirt2/Comics/Marvel/Thunderbolts/PENANCE003.jpg

[Capt USA]

Wow... it's pretty interesting positive the response is to this book, considering how negative an opinion a lot of people had about the character and writer going in the book.

I guess it's an instane where you can argue they actually did know what they were doing afterall. Or at least in the eyes of some.

Either way, I hope the character begins moving in a less emo-ish direction now. It kinda gets stale after a while.

I won't argue they did know what they were doing, but I will say they did a great job doing what they did. I think the Penance character was forced garbage that is stupid beyond any rational humans ability to comprehend, heck it makes someone thinking wiping out 30 years of continuity with a deal with the devil appear sensical. It was a garbage origin for the character that was extremely forced.

But, the book itself was very well done, even the objections about how Robbie all the sudden was smarter than everyone, is somewhat answered because he had a singular dedication to one task and one task only, heck even Reed Richards guessed what many of the numbers represented so it's not like he was outsmarted completly, but an individual with a dedicated purpose could probably outsmart the smartest men in the world for a day or two.

jackolover hit many points pretty well in his posts, about the whole journey and the transformation of Penance, I still think it was forced, but in the end it did provide what I felt was a very good solid story.

[prodigy]

That's the thing though, Speedball has already went though a lot and has been shown to be a mature level headed individual when the time is nessisary. However he always found superheroing to be fun and would rather relax and enjoy himself than focus on the bad stuff. That's why he bounced around to begin with. The guy could control kinetic motion. He could essentially move anyway he wanted.

Speedball wasn't just a silly immature teen. He was just a young adult that had accepted who he was and decided to have fun with it. Heck, not too long ago in Marvel team-up, he watched everybody he knew get slaughtered and ended up stranded in a future timeline with no way to get home, and he was still cracking jokes.

The fault really lies with the writers here. Growing u stories are almost irresistible to them. Anybody that writers a teenaged hero or a hothead, or a jokster can't resist the urge to do the story where they "finally" grow up. Human Torch alone has "grown past his hotheadedness" more times than I can count.


Well, sure, if you discount the time he formed a new team of New Warriors and led them or how he was a member of the Avengers shown in A-Next that the younger heroes looked up to and respected, if that's the case, then you probably couldn't picture him as an Avenger. Because that would require some actually knowledge about the character. You know, that stuff the current people writing him have no clue about.

So how exactly is Baldwin supposed to have a fall from grace? Or is he perfectly 100% lighthearted no matter what?

[jackolover]

Yes, this interest me, too. As this was sold as a Civil War spin-off - rather than Thunderbolts - I have to wonder if it wasn't something tied to the former.


I don't know what Robot Master could have done during Civil War. The last I heard from him was when he was destroyed in an old Spiderman book. They show RM repaired but now a Robot, and not human anymore. And I think RM's last appearance was in a Norman Osborn plot that killed Ben Reilly in Revelations. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Paul Jenkins]

I loved this series. It allows me to forgive Jenkins somewhat for making Captain America an idiot.

Sorry to intrude -- I know you guys prefer to chat here without wondering whether or not pros are staring over your shoulder.

But I've seen this kind of comment a number of times and I feel I need to clarify just a little (though I have done so elsewhere). See, it's not *me* who yells at Captain America in Frontlines, it's Sally Floyd. She is fictional, and portrayed consistently as often being drunk and unreasonable.

For something closer to my own feelings towards military veterans please check out the upcoming Mythos: Captain America. It's based in part on my next door neighbor, whose hand I shake every chance I get.

P

[Tetsuo_man]

Mr. jenkins let me say i loved your run on the darkness. Now here is the bad news just really don't see penance as anything more than a lets tough up a character most of the writing staff must have thought lame. He was fun and was a great alternative to a younger spider-manesque character. I mean speedball was a steve ditko and bill mantlo colaboration! Nevermind I probabbly should never have tried to reply to you. I mean you will probabbly just tear apart my post and say I'm a stupid fanboy or something. I just hope that you respect while not exactly agree with me.

[StoneGold]

Sorry to intrude -- I know you guys prefer to chat here without wondering whether or not pros are staring over your shoulder.

But I've seen this kind of comment a number of times and I feel I need to clarify just a little (though I have done so elsewhere). See, it's not *me* who yells at Captain America in Frontlines, it's Sally Floyd. She is fictional, and portrayed consistently as often being drunk and unreasonable.

For something closer to my own feelings towards military veterans please check out the upcoming Mythos: Captain America. It's based in part on my next door neighbor, whose hand I shake every chance I get.

P

Paul, for what it's worth, I think it's less about what Sally said, more that Cap just kind of sat there and took it. Mostly, I just don't think it's one of your better pieces. That said, I am very much looking forward to the Mythos book. You've been on top of your game for all of those. They really need to trade them all up in an oversized omnibus. The art deserves it.

[jackolover]

Been a big fan of Frontline, Paul, so I just wanted to know what tack you are taking with Secret Invasion : Frontline? I imagine paranoia will play a major part, but really, will the human population get affected by this event, or just the heros?

[Paul Jenkins]

Mr. jenkins let me say i loved your run on the darkness. Now here is the bad news just really don't see penance as anything more than a lets tough up a character most of the writing staff must have thought lame. He was fun and was a great alternative to a younger spider-manesque character. I mean speedball was a steve ditko and bill mantlo colaboration! Nevermind I probabbly should never have tried to reply to you. I mean you will probabbly just tear apart my post and say I'm a stupid fanboy or something. I just hope that you respect while not exactly agree with me.

No, it's fine. Don't worry. I would not expect people to like everything I write. I'm quite happy with people disliking it, as long as they have a valid reason for their dislike.

As far as Speedball goes, I'm sure he was a fine character. But we haven't really taken him away... i think it's just a drastic progression of the character that will eventually settle down. I would imagine an event like Stamford would be very traumatic.

[Paul Jenkins]

Been a big fan of Frontline, Paul, so I just wanted to know what tack you are taking with Secret Invasion : Frontline? I imagine paranoia will play a major part, but really, will the human population get affected by this event, or just the heros?

I'm not writing it. At the moment, i am pretty busy with film work. But I have a big project lined up for next year once I am finished with Tatua.

P

[XPac]

Paul, for what it's worth, I think it's less about what Sally said, more that Cap just kind of sat there and took it. Mostly, I just don't think it's one of your better pieces. That said, I am very much looking forward to the Mythos book. You've been on top of your game for all of those. They really need to trade them all up in an oversized omnibus. The art deserves it.

I can sort of see both sides of that though.

On one hand, I'm not sure that Cap would have sat there and argued with Sally. Standing there and defending himself that way after he made it clear he was there to apologize would have come off kind of weird.

On the flip side, I do think the book did Cap a great diservice by not in any way challenging the ludicrous things Sally said about Cap (and about american culture in general). I guess Bucky kind of responds down the line.

[StoneGold]

I can sort of see both sides of that though.

On one hand, I'm not sure that Cap would have sat there and argued with Sally. Standing there and defending himself that way after he made it clear he was there to apologize would have come off kind of weird.

On the flip side, I do think the book did Cap a great diservice by not in any way challenging the ludicrous things Sally said about Cap (and about american culture in general). I guess Bucky kind of responds down the line.

Look, if I'm being honest, I don't really think either Frontline, as a whole, is some of Paul Jenkins' best work. That said, they didn't seem like easy books to write - filling in the holes of crossovers, but not really using any of the characters. Made worse by delays, expansions, etc. And for me, Paul's best work is when he's basically doing his own thing - Inhumans, Sentry, Mythos, etc.

But at the same time, Civil War would have read a lot better without Frontlines. Really, worse than the Floyd thing, no Stark assassination attempts.

[XPac]

Look, if I'm being honest, I don't really think either Frontline, as a whole, is some of Paul Jenkins' best work. That said, they didn't seem like easy books to write - filling in the holes of crossovers, but not really using any of the characters. Made worse by delays, expansions, etc. And for me, Paul's best work is when he's basically doing his own thing - Inhumans, Sentry, Mythos, etc.

But at the same time, Civil War would have read a lot better without Frontlines. Really, worse than the Floyd thing, no Stark assassination attempts.

I had some issues with certain elements of Frontline too... but that said I think it was necessary.

The main title had these huge wholes that were never addressed. Millar never bothered voicing Caps side of the arguemnt, and barely even touched on Tonys. That's a pretty glaring omission when the entire series is really based on a legal and ethical debate. In Millars book we just got 2 guys fighting.

For me at least, Frontline filled in a few gaps I needed. It didn't necessarily fill them in as well as I hoped at times, but it was more than I got from the main book. Basially, it was something.

[jackolover]

I'm not writing it. At the moment, i am pretty busy with film work. But I have a big project lined up for next year once I am finished with Tatua.

P

I'm disappointed. You do good work.

[Rio_de_Janeiro]

and make REAL transformations with REAL long-time consequences to its universe. I am so sick of this "return to the seventies status-quo" ever so often. i want dead characters to remain dead; i want characters to mature; i want events and facts to really touch upon characters' psyches, etc.

just that.

cheers,
rio.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

As far as Speedball goes, I'm sure he was a fine character. But we haven't really taken him away... i think it's just a drastic progression of the character that will eventually settle down. I would imagine an event like Stamford would be very traumatic.

That's the way I've been considering things, too. Heck, Robbie may even go back to the Speedball persona, someday. But I feel that the work done here, amd elsewhere adds an extra dimension to his character, which won't ever just disappear. It would hopefully help to build a more mature character. Even if he goes back to the wisecracking.