Ivory Madison Hunts Huntress in "Year One"

[CBR News]

Writer, lawyer, entrepreneur and Bat-superfan Ivory Madison goes back to the scene of the crime and updates the origin of Helena Bertinelli in DC Comics' upcoming six-issue miniseries, “Huntress: Year One.”

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=13204

[EJS]

I'm looking forward to this.

[Mart]

What a fun interview, Ivory Madison (is that her real name?) sounds a smart, funny writer, and the mini series sounds more interesting than I thought.

But that intro needs a tweak, surely? Helena Wayne wasn't a love child, Batman and Catwoman were married. And I don't see that any of the Helenas count as a reboot of the Golden Age, villainous Huntress (renamed Tigress).

[TopJack1]

Wow. What an amazing ego.

Seriously, she couldn't be more impressed with herself and appears to have zero humility. For someone who's never has a comic book published to talk about how DC will undoubtedly want to publish her Batman spec script based the success of a mini-series that has yet to be published and how she deserves to write a Huntress ongoing comes across as someone full of hot air if not something more crude.

Not to mention she comes across as a vapid wri-TAH as opposed to someone who wants to write comic books.

What an elitist! And that name - Ivory Madison. Could there be a more white-bread name in existence?

I love the Huntress but, ugh, I can't support this contessa.

[Mart]

Wow. What an amazing ego.

Seriously, she couldn't be more impressed with herself and appears to have zero humility. For someone who's never has a comic book published to talk about how DC will undoubtedly want to publish her Batman spec script based the success of a mini-series that has yet to be published and how she deserves to write a Huntress ongoing comes across as someone full of hot air if not something more crude.


Dearie Lord, calm - I read all that with a wink in her voice.

Wow. What an amazing ego.

What an elitist! And that name - Ivory Madison. Could there be a more white-bread name in existence?

If the name's real, it's hardly her fault. If she chose it as a pen name, so what. You'd prefer her to be I Bling or something? (Mind, that sounds like a Wonder Woman writer.)

[carabas]

Oh dear...

She wants to incorporate elements of the old Earth 2 Helena Wayne Huntress, and turn her into a lawyer?

I'll skip this one, thank you very much, and hope it doesn't get acknowledged in 'real' continuity.

[CaptainCanada]

On a superficial note, she's hot.

I've been debating whether I'm going to buy this in singles or read it in trade. It sounds interesting; she's definitely a fan of the character (or characters, I suppose, since there are two Helenas).

Hypothetically, were she to get the chance to do the lawyer thing, that seems like it would make her very similar to Manhunter (although Earth-2 Huntress got there first). I like Helena as a teacher, though I can see how being a lawyer would tie more into the superhero job.

[Alexx1]

Hypothetically, were she to get the chance to do the lawyer thing, that seems like it would make her very similar to Manhunter (although Earth-2 Huntress got there first). I like Helena as a teacher, though I can see how being a lawyer would tie more into the superhero job.

Huntress has an equal disdain for cops/law enforcement as she does criminals. I think she sees them both as corrupt evils. Giving Huntress's past it makes more sense for her to go into the teaching profession to protect and perserve the very essence of what she lost as a child, her childhood. We've seen the lawyer turn vigalante story with Kate "Manhunter" Spencer. I hope Madison is successful with this series so that it may open the possibilty for a Huntress ongoing. Whether or not she's the perfect person to write it will remain to be seen. But I'll definitely be picking this mini-series up.

[CaptainCanada]

I could see the disdain for the system at the start (I mean, to a certain extent, every hero must have some frustration with it because they all work outside it), but she's mellowed out a lot since then (and you could always do the "try to change things" angle).

[Mia]

Her admiration/love of Huntress is nice. And unlike other writers she seems to have done her homework. I do have a problem with some of the things she said though.

She wants to chuck Batman's influence on Helena to become a Huntress. I don't like this at all.


And since when did Helena have a problem with male authority figures? She was protected and trained by two men to be a fighter! Why would she have a problem with male authority figures? I get the impression that she's borrowing here and there from past Huntress writers. I hope that she doesn't plan on bringing Calvieri's story where she was raped as a child back into existance!

I will probably be getting this, but with a bit of hesistation. I don't like the ret-conning out of some things--and frankly it seems to play into her feminist tendencies. Also--and I say this as woman who writes as a hobby--I just have not been impressed with female comic book writers. They just don't seem to 'get' what makes a hero or the point of what mainstream comics are all about. It seems it's either 'girly' or pseudo psychobabble trash.

It still boggles my mind that two of the three worst portrayals of Huntress I have ever seen were done by women. Devin Grayson and Gail Siomone who essentially turned her into a whore.

I admire Ms. Madison's love of the character. But we've all seen writers who claim to love a character, destroy that character and run them into the ground.

[Mia]

I could see the disdain for the system at the start (I mean, to a certain extent, every hero must have some frustration with it because they all work outside it), but she's mellowed out a lot since then (and you could always do the "try to change things" angle).

Helena's disdain (if you want to call it that) for the law, probably stems from her life in Sicily, where the cops/government were seen as the enemy. Also much like Batman, she's too independent & impatient to join the police force and follow orders. Another thing, being part of the Mafia and seeing how hard it's been for the cops to bring them down. She probably thought that she would do better as a vigilante crime fighter.

[Alexx1]

I could see the disdain for the system at the start (I mean, to a certain extent, every hero must have some frustration with it because they all work outside it), but she's mellowed out a lot since then (and you could always do the "try to change things" angle).

I don't want to be one of those fans who is so oppose to change with a character you've come to appreciate. I suppose anything is possible if it is written well and made believable. But given Huntress's past, who she is, and what she stands for, I think it's going to be a hard sell. And I don't personally view Huntress as mellowing out as much as she's learning to work with in the constraints of team work and under Bab's rules. Big difference to me. I still think there are times that her independent nature is itching to get out, how could it not, it's in her DNA. The great thing about a character like Huntress is she's always, constantly fighting against her self. I'm a little surprised that it hasn't caused a little more tension in BoP between her and Babs. Though I believe Tony Bedard showed a little of it in one of his BoP fill ins.

[OverMaster]

It still boggles my mind that two of the three worst portrayals of Huntress I have ever seen were done by women. Devin Grayson and Gail Siomone who essentially turned her into a whore.


Just out of curiosity, who did the third worst portrayal?

[Mia]

Just out of curiosity, who did the third worst portrayal?


In my eyes. Judd Winnick. Not only did he write her as your stereotypical 'psycho b*tch'. He also used the character as nothing but a 'mattress' to make Arsenal, his pet Marty Stu, look like a stud. I found the whole thing revolting.

[munniec]

It still boggles my mind that two of the three worst portrayals of Huntress I have ever seen were done by women. Devin Grayson and Gail Siomone who essentially turned her into a whore.

Just out of curiosity as well, what did Gail Simone do?

[carabas]

Just out of curiosity as well, what did Gail Simone do?At one point, at a time when Helena pretty much had hit rock bottom in her life, she slept with an annoying little twit called Josh. It was a one time thing, and given that in Gail's entire BoP run, Helena had sex just the one time, she hardly turned her into a whore.

[bar-el]

I am looking forward to this,especially ,in a strange way ,because this is a new writer on the scene. Come on lets give a new voice a chance.
Oh and Idon't think Helena Wayne can be described as the "love child" that is usually used to identify a child born when the parents aren't married. Bruce and Selena were married in that continuity.

[titansmaster]

My fondness for Huntress goes directly to her Earth - 2 roots as the daughter of Bruce and Selina Wayne. The potential for this character was huge in those days.

Since, she became your average vengence seeking heroine. Gail Simone changed a ton of that and made her a viable heroine.

Ivory seems to have respect for the character's history. I don't mind a small tweak here and there in the origin of a character, when it is respectful of said character's history.

So I will be onboard for this limited series.

Oh, and to the folks that thought she sounded a little cocky about her past Batman script, I agree that I think she was just being witty.

[Mia]

Just out of curiosity as well, what did Gail Simone do?

She had the previously uptight and self-respecting Huntress go to bed with a twit who just finished treating her like a piece of crap. This is the same Huntress who had previously been written as a very proud no-nonsense woman. It was almost a complete 180 degree turn from whom she had been.

And of course there was Devin Grayson’s pathetic characterization of Huntress prostituting herself by sleeping with Nightwing in order to get into the Batgroup.

Like I said it boggles my mind that two female writers actually decided to write a woman like that. Not my view of empowering female behaviour.

I find the best treatment of female characters have been by men. I find that they imbue them with more intelligence, courage and personal dignity. They have purpose, play to win and never sell themselves short. I find that truly admirable.

[Young Avenger]

She had the previously uptight and self-respecting Huntress go to bed with a twit who just finished treating her like a piece of crap. This is the same Huntress who had previously been written as a very proud no-nonsense woman. It was almost a complete 180 degree turn from whom she had been.

And of course there was Devin Grayson’s pathetic characterization of Huntress prostituting herself by sleeping with Nightwing in order to get into the Batgroup.

Like I said it boggles my mind that two female writers actually decided to write a woman like that. Not my view of empowering female behaviour.

I find the best treatment of female characters have been by men. I find that they imbue them with more intelligence, courage and personal dignity. They have purpose, play to win and never sell themselves short. I find that truly admirable.

So Gail made one mistake with the character and you completely crap on their portrayal of the character? It sucks that it happened but its something that can be easily overlooked considering how much more good Gail did with her.

[carabas]

She had the previously uptight and self-respecting Huntress go to bed with a twit who just finished treating her like a piece of crap. This is the same Huntress who had previously been written as a very proud no-nonsense woman. It was almost a complete 180 degree turn from whom she had been.Like I said above, there was context. And someone who has sex once in 40+ issues can hardly be labeled a whore, a slut, or even slightly promiscuous.

[Rattlehead]

Like I said above, there was context. And someone who has sex once in 40+ issues can hardly be labeled a whore, a slut, or even slightly promiscuous.

I find it disturbing that a woman is promoting such behavior. Just because a woman has a moment of weakness, and makes a bad choice, does not make her a whore. It made sense in the confines of the story, and I seem to have missed the issues of BoP where Huntress was selling herself on street corners.

[WorstThingUS]

Her admiration/love of Huntress is nice. And unlike other writers she seems to have done her homework. I do have a problem with some of the things she said though.

She wants to chuck Batman's influence on Helena to become a Huntress. I don't like this at all.

HUGE strike for me and essentially undoes the character. What next? Will Steel just happen to be a guy who showed up in Metropolis with a red cape and an "S" on his chest independent of Superman? Having Helena be inspired by Batman maintains the father-daughter dynamic of The Batman and The Huntress even though we lost the actual biology after COIE.

She had the previously uptight and self-respecting Huntress go to bed with a twit who just finished treating her like a piece of crap. This is the same Huntress who had previously been written as a very proud no-nonsense woman. It was almost a complete 180 degree turn from whom she had been.

You need to read that again. She owed him a favor and he wanted a date. She spends the entire date abusing him and eventually a little humanity creeps through in him, though he never stops with the cheap come ons. She sleeps with him, but doing so doesn't make her a whore, nor does it it alter her character as I don't recall Helena being sexually uptight. As others have said, you're being unduly harsh and judgmental for one sexual encounter under Gail's run.

And of course there was Devin Grayson’s pathetic characterization of Huntress prostituting herself by sleeping with Nightwing in order to get into the Batgroup.

If you know anything about Ms. Grayson, you know she's got issues with sex that come out in her writing (Nightwing's rape by Tarantula for example), but Gail Simone did make an effort to say that Helena was actually looking for more from Nightwing. Chuck Dixon as well. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, so their attempts to make the Nightwing/Huntress hookup more than some twisted need for approval and acceptance could only be so effective. The only offensive portrayal I had with The Huntress' sexuality (aside from her stupid Jim Lee stripper costume and Ed Benes's softcore porn artwork) was her one-nighter with Speedy/Roy Harper/Arsenal from the master of retarded sexuality, Judd Winnick. A good writer would have had this be her obviously trying to get at Nighwing, but he's not a good writer and had her hook up with the biggest slut in the DCU. And again, Gail tried to work with this having Helena pretty much denounce Roy as a lover.

Like I said it boggles my mind that two female writers actually decided to write a woman like that. Not my view of empowering female behaviour.

I find it more disturbing that a woman is this harsh (1 sexual encounter = whore).

I admire Ms. Madison's love of the character. But we've all seen writers who claim to love a character, destroy that character and run them into the ground.

Seriously. Brad Meltzer claims to have loved the satellite era JLA and thanks to him it's now the Rape-Brainwash-Betrayal era.

[Gail Simone]

Oh, my god, I can't believe we're still having this conversation.

Yipes.

Well, welcome back anyway, Mia. It's nice to see you back in any case.

Gail

[Gail Simone]

HUGE strike for me and essentially undoes the character. What next? Will Steel just happen to be a guy who showed up in Metropolis with a red cape and an "S" on his chest independent of Superman? Having Helena be inspired by Batman maintains the father-daughter dynamic of The Batman and The Huntress even though we lost the actual biology after COIE.



You need to read that again. She owed him a favor and he wanted a date. She spends the entire date abusing him and eventually a little humanity creeps through in him, though he never stops with the cheap come ons. She sleeps with him, but doing so doesn't make her a whore, nor does it it alter her character as I don't recall Helena being sexually uptight. As others have said, you're being unduly harsh and judgmental for one sexual encounter under Gail's run.



If you know anything about Ms. Grayson, you know she's got issues with sex that come out in her writing (Nightwing's rape by Tarantula for example), but Gail Simone did make an effort to say that Helena was actually looking for more from Nightwing. Chuck Dixon as well. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, so their attempts to make the Nightwing/Huntress hookup more than some twisted need for approval and acceptance could only be so effective. The only offensive portrayal I had with The Huntress' sexuality (aside from her stupid Jim Lee stripper costume and Ed Benes's softcore porn artwork) was her one-nighter with Speedy/Roy Harper/Arsenal from the master of retarded sexuality, Judd Winnick. A good writer would have had this be her obviously trying to get at Nighwing, but he's not a good writer and had her hook up with the biggest slut in the DCU. And again, Gail tried to work with this having Helena pretty much denounce Roy as a lover.



I find it more disturbing that a woman is this harsh (1 sexual encounter = whore).



Seriously. Brad Meltzer claims to have loved the satellite era JLA and thanks to him it's now the Rape-Brainwash-Betrayal era.



I like this post a lot...even the bits I disagree with are well-stated. Thank you, and hang around!

Gail

[Gail Simone]

I find it disturbing that a woman is promoting such behavior. Just because a woman has a moment of weakness, and makes a bad choice, does not make her a whore. It made sense in the confines of the story, and I seem to have missed the issues of BoP where Huntress was selling herself on street corners.

Yeah, there's a whole world of context.

I don't understand Mia's position and never will. I don't think it resembles what actually happened very closely.

However, I do get that she firmly believes her interpretation and isn't meaning any personal slam at me, or anything. She just thinks a disservice was done to the character.

It's all just opinion, no worries.

Gail

[Gail Simone]

I am terribly embarrassed. I thought this was the yabs forum somehow, which makes my posts read a little weird.

My apologies, everyone. Please carry on!

Gail

[Alexx1]

But in all honesty, knowing Huntress the way you do, Mrs. Gail, can you see Huntress as a lawyer? Yes, why? No, why?

[Gail Simone]

So Gail made one mistake with the character and you completely crap on their portrayal of the character? It sucks that it happened but its something that can be easily overlooked considering how much more good Gail did with her.

Thank you!

But I was actually trying to UNDO something other writers had done with her.

[WorstThingUS]

I like this post a lot...even the bits I disagree with are well-stated. Thank you, and hang around!

Gail

Thank you, Gail. I'm a huge, huge fan. And, you won't remember, but we used to talk about BOP on Usenet. There I was Badthingus. I'm an older, more bitter fanboy so now I'm worse.

[Gail Simone]

But in all honesty, knowing Huntress the way you do, Mrs. Gail, can you see Huntress as a lawyer? Yes, why? No, why?

I don't like to comment too much on what happens once I no longer write a character as a rule, it just seems gauche, and this story hasn't even come out yet.

I'll say I DO like her as a teacher, I think it adds a nice level of motivation to her. But on the other hand, having a lawyer write a lawyer in comics will be a nice change, and probably bring about some authenticity and interest.

I'm looking forward to it!


Gail

[WorstThingUS]

I don't like to comment too much on what happens once I no longer write a character as a rule, it just seems gauche, and this story hasn't even come out yet.

Gail

I agree, so I won't bother asking you what you think of Sean McKeever having a couple of square blocks of Metropolis being destroyed in BOP because their screw up and Superman yelling at them for it. I think Tony Bedard is a much better successor to your run and am glad he's coming onboard.

[Gail Simone]

Thank you, Gail. I'm a huge, huge fan. And, you won't remember, but we used to talk about BOP on Usenet. There I was Badthingus. I'm an older, more bitter fanboy so now I'm worse.

HEY!

I never remember handles but I remember you! I used to wonder what your name meant!

Anyway, as I said, I thought this was the yabs forum (I clearly have dementia. I'm not even sure how I made that mistake), but I hope all y'all will also drop by the yabs forum sometimes. I like this discussion!

Gail

[Alexx1]

I don't like to comment too much on what happens once I no longer write a character as a rule, it just seems gauche, and this story hasn't even come out yet.

I'll say I DO like her as a teacher, I think it adds a nice level of motivation to her. But on the other hand, having a lawyer write a lawyer in comics will be a nice change, and probably bring about some authenticity and interest.

I'm looking forward to it!


Gail

Now that I think about it, I guess I put you in a tough spot with that question. I certainly didn't mean to make it awkward. I was speaking more of your opinion from a fan perspective, knowing the character as you do. I guess I can see from your response how that could be seen as a conflict of interest. My fault.

[WorstThingUS]

HEY!

I never remember handles but I remember you! I used to wonder what your name meant!

Anyway, as I said, I thought this was the yabs forum (I clearly have dementia. I'm not even sure how I made that mistake), but I hope all y'all will also drop by the yabs forum sometimes. I like this discussion!

Gail

I'm going to reveal my lack of geek savvy and ask just what the hell "yabs" is?

[Gail Simone]

I'm going to reveal my lack of geek savvy and ask just what the hell "yabs" is?

My message board here, YOU'LL ALL BE SORRY!

And no worries at all, Alexx!

[Captain Jim]

I am terribly embarrassed. I thought this was the yabs forum somehow, which makes my posts read a little weird.

My apologies, everyone. Please carry on!

Gail

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

Feel free to come around anytime, Gail. :)

[jerrymcl89]

I've liked Huntress being a teacher - I think that provides contrast to her harshness as a superhero. I think making her a lawyer makes her too much like Kate Spencer, who she already resembles. But, as always, I'm open to being persuaded by the stories.

[Mia]

And since when did Helena have a problem with male authority figures? She was protected and trained by two men to be a fighter! Why would she have a problem with male authority figures? I get the impression that she's borrowing here and there from past Huntress writers. I hope that she doesn't plan on bringing Calvieri's story where she was raped as a child back into existance!



Okay.....my fears have been absolved and my questions answered. The male authority Huntress has a problem comes from the type of men who assume that they are boss (read dominereering jerks). And no the author will not be using Calvieris' treatment.



I admire Ms. Madison's love of the character. But we've all seen writers who claim to love a character, destroy that character and run them into the ground.

Looks like she really did her homework and is taking this seriously. What a refreshing change!:) I really look forward to reading this book!

[K-DoG7p7]

Ohh by the way.. whats the problem with Helena sleeping with josh?

[Gail Simone]

Oh, my gosh, here it comes. :)

[WorstThingUS]

Ohh by the way.. whats the problem with Helena sleeping with josh?

I can only guess, issues against casual sex aside, Josh was a nobody. He wasn't a superhero, he wasn't even an exceptional guy. He was a schlub and he got to sleep with a superhero. On the first date no less. It didn't bother me because I know plenty of otherwise amazing women who have strangely done similar things.

Oh, and she left her mask on.

[Johnny_Luck]

Ohh by the way.. whats the problem with Helena sleeping with josh?

Nothing at all, however for some reason a select few have really silly Hissy fits because of it.

I guess they see her sleeping with a regular guy without being in a relationship as whoreish or something really stupid like that. Honestly she hasn't had any since then and with her age in real life she be having more of it without being called those names. Sleeping with like 3 guys in the last 5 years of comic years is hardly a whorish thing and is kinda low at least from what I have seen from whats normal and healthy.

Not saying she should go out and sleep around every issue, but it wouldn't be the end of the world if she found someone to have some fun with for a night or more, either.

[Mia]

Except that this was not a regular guy was it. This was a man who just finished treating her like a piece of filth.
I think that it’s a great disservice to a character who prized her dignity above everything else. A woman who respected herself so much that she could not bring herself to obey her childhood idol—because of his arrogance and rudeness. I found this to be very admirable. It showed me a woman who respected herself. Fortunately I get the impression that Ms. Madison will be writing a treatment of the old Huntress. Not the characterization of the past five years.

Part of the reason I have collected comics for the last 20 years. Is that it gives me the opportunity to read about qualities I admire in men in and women. I think that male writers for the most part are the best at doing this. They understand the qualities of what goes into a being a hero, in ways that female writers-whom I’ve read just don’t get. Especially when it comes to writing women. Most male writers (of course not all) portray their female characters with intelligence, courage and dignity. Life might let them down but they won’t let themselves down. They will fight to the bitter end. They know their self worth and won’t allow anyone to dis-respect them. And I really like that.

[Johnny_Luck]

I really don't want to drag this out for the millionth time, but honestly I disagree with Mia and felt if anything it was the other way around, especially with the comment made afterwards that was just rude for the sake of it and out of character.

Also Seeing as Huntress is my second favorite superhero of all time after spider-man and easily my favorite DC character I have to say that Gail did a brilliant job writing her and that if she hadn't I would have not only spoke up a hell of a lot more, but I would have dropped BOP long, long ago.

[Alexx1]

I really don't want to drag this out for the millionth time, but honestly I disagree with Mia and felt if anything it was the other way around, especially with the comment made afterwards that was just rude for the sake of it and out of character.

Also Seeing as Huntress is my second favorite superhero of all time after spider-man and easily my favorite DC character I have to say that Gail did a brilliant job writing her and that if she hadn't I would have not only spoke up a hell of a lot more, but I would have dropped BOP long, long ago.

I've agree with a lot of your points in this thread but I don't think Helena telling Josh that he was awful in bed and turned her off of sex (and he must have been pretty bad bc she still hasn't had any) was rude or out of character for Huntress. Clearly he wasn't getting the hint that she wasn't interested in furthering their previous tirade and she was quite put off with all his sexual inuendos and comments he continued to make even AFTER she tried tactfuly to hint that she really wasn't interested in him. So frankly the only way to deal with an person like Josh at that moment is to be brutally honest because any other way and he's just not going to get it and stop.

I think Mia has a point to a certain degree. As a fan (and Huntress is my all-time favorite character DC and Marvel), honestly, I'm still struggling with finding Huntress's motivation in sleeping with Josh as well. I understand what Gail said her motivation was (trying to undue what other writers had done) but just in the flow of her and Josh's outing, her sleeping with him came out of left field to me, especially considering she seemed quite annoyed with him.

I'm not going to discredit ALL of Mia's assertions nor what she obviously desires to see for this character because it seems in line with a lot of what you and I would want (respect and for Huntress to be presented and seen in a good light) for the character seeing she's our favorite. But I do draw the line on any post that would say or suggest Gail turned Huntress into a whore and hasn't given her some legitimacy and respect because quite frankly that's just not the case. Because I or anyone might not like something, or get it, doesn't negate what Gail's done for Huntress's character.

[WorstThingUS]

Except that this was not a regular guy was it. This was a man who just finished treating her like a piece of filth.
I think that it’s a great disservice to a character who prized her dignity above everything else. A woman who respected herself so much that she could not bring herself to obey her childhood idol—because of his arrogance and rudeness. I found this to be very admirable. It showed me a woman who respected herself. Fortunately I get the impression that Ms. Madison will be writing a treatment of the old Huntress. Not the characterization of the past five years.

Part of the reason I have collected comics for the last 20 years. Is that it gives me the opportunity to read about qualities I admire in men in and women. I think that male writers for the most part are the best at doing this. They understand the qualities of what goes into a being a hero, in ways that female writers-whom I’ve read just don’t get. Especially when it comes to writing women. Most male writers (of course not all) portray their female characters with intelligence, courage and dignity. Life might let them down but they won’t let themselves down. They will fight to the bitter end. They know their self worth and won’t allow anyone to dis-respect them. And I really like that.

Except the old Huntress exists because of Batman's example, the first thing she's throwing out the window for no other reason than she just doesn't like it. This is not a good sign. It adds nothing to the character and takes away a great deal.

And Josh most certainly did not treat her like filth. Josh was a sad douchebag, but in no way was he evil or malicious and it was always clear he was the inferior and she could break him at anytime. You can't treat your superior like filth. Someone has to be at a disadvantage for that to occur. In fact it was quite the opposite.

With Josh she was the unquestioned superior and totally desired, unlike with Nightwing who rejected her, or Black Canary who belittled her all day and even Oracle who made a snide remark about her time with Nightwing. And on top of this all is Batman's disregard. There's such a thing as context and you're totally ignoring it. Her date with Josh was at the end of day where the people closest to her professionally, whose respect she sought out, didn't give it. Whereas, despite his clumsy come-ons, Josh obviously worshipped her and later came to help out to fight the drug dealers from Asia at the risk of his own non-trained life. As a matter of fact she runs into Nightwing during that operation and specifcially mentions that she has people with her who are loyal, unlike Nightwing who treated her like crap.

You say you want heroes to respect, but apparently you want them two dimensional with no ugly human flaws, like compromising your standards just to be wanted unconditionally for just a little while.

And the same guys who write women with the "respect" you desire are the same guys constantly killing them off to show how deep the guys are mourning them.

[WorstThingUS]

I've agree with a lot of your points in this thread but I don't think Helena telling Josh that he was awful in bed and turned her off of sex (and he must have been pretty bad bc she still hasn't had any).

She never said Josh was bad in bed. She said Roy Harper/Arsenal was bad in bed. We've never heard what she thought of Josh.

[Alexx1]

She never said Josh was bad in bed. She said Roy Harper/Arsenal was bad in bed. We've never heard what she thought of Josh.


Yes she did. Issue #83. She told him the sex was so bad she could live to be a thousand and never want it and that she's put off (from sex) forever.

[WorstThingUS]

Yes she did. Issue #83. She told him the sex was so bad she could live to be a thousand and never want it and that she put off (from sex) forever.

Damn. Gotta go dig it up now. I guess after Nightwing, everyone just sucks in comparison.

[Mia]

And Josh most certainly did not treat her like filth. Josh was a sad douchebag, but in no way was he evil or malicious and it was always clear he was the inferior and she could break him at anytime. You can't treat your superior like filth. Someone has to be at a disadvantage for that to occur. In fact it was quite the opposite. With Josh she was the unquestioned superior and totally desired,

You just referred to character as a 'sad douchebag'. That it itself says that he wasn't very nice. Also you are conveniently forgetting that he actually asked her 'if they could drive/pass by (I don't have my books in front of me, so sorry if the quote is not exactly verbatim) his girlfriends house. Not only is that the height of boorish ignorance that shows that he had no genuine interest in her. The old Huntress would never have put up with that for a second. She would have either told him off or slapped him. But she definitely would have walked away. There was no way she would have taken off her clothes and granted him sexual favours.



Nightwing who rejected her, or Black Canary who belittled her all day and even Oracle who made a snide remark about her time with Nightwing. And on top of this all is Batman's disregard. There's such a thing as context and you're totally ignoring it. Her date with Josh was at the end of day where the people closest to her professionally, whose respect she sought out, didn't give it.


You accuse me of ignoring context. However there are several things here that you yourself are ignoring.

• In HCFB Helena told Nightwing to go away and that she had no interest in him.
• Huntress has never ever bowed to Batman’s demands or has outwardly given in to his criticisms.
• Prior to Huntress inclusion into BOP, she and Oracle hated each other, And she and Canary were never close. So why would Huntress give a damn what either of them thought?


But even if everything which you stated above were in fact true. What kind of ‘hero’ is Huntress if she debases herself because someone (especially two judgmental and snobby women-one whom she disliked) hurt her feelings? If she has that kind of mentality then she has no business being in costume, it shows that she has a fragile sense of self. The old Huntress/Helena would have put up with that non-sense for a minute—this was a character written by men. She was a woman with purpose, dignity and ambition.



And the same guys who write women with the "respect" you desire are the same guys constantly killing them off to show how deep the guys are mourning them.

What male writers are these? I in no way implied that all male writers have done a good job at writing female characters. But most of them have, which is why I still collect comic books after 20 years.

[WorstThingUS]

You just referred to character as a 'sad douchebag'. That it itself says that he wasn't very nice. Also you are conveniently forgetting that he actually asked her 'if they could drive/pass by (I don't have my books in front of me, so sorry if the quote is not exactly verbatim) his girlfriends house. Not only is that the height of boorish ignorance that shows that he had no genuine interest in her. The old Huntress would never have put up with that for a second. She would have either told him off or slapped him. But she definitely would have walked away. There was no way she would have taken off her clothes and granted him sexual favours.

Could you be more humorless? It's obviously a joke. She tries to appeal to something decent inside him and his response is to just want to make his ex jealous and she gives a resigned sigh. And she spent most of the night telling him off to no avail.

"Granted him sexual favors" I think that sums up the basic difference right there. Not everyone views sex as some sort of divine and holy encounter between two people. For some it's the end all be all to human connection, to others a casual pastime. The Huntress obviously takes sex very casually and you just don't like it. Indulging in casual sex doesn't make her weaker or less heroic than it does Nightwing, Green Arrow, Green Lantern or anyone else we've seen do it. I will admit that I was a bit shocked that The Huntress would hook up with Josh, but like I said, it was set up by her day of being insulted by two people whom you just when through hell with and for who quite frankly seemed to regard for sleeping with Nightwing and Arsenal the same way you regard her for sleeping with Josh.

You accuse me of ignoring context. However there are several things here that you yourself are ignoring.

• In HCFB Helena told Nightwing to go away and that she had no interest in him.
• Huntress has never ever bowed to Batman’s demands or has outwardly given in to his criticisms.
• Prior to Huntress inclusion into BOP, she and Oracle hated each other, And she and Canary were never close. So why would Huntress give a damn what either of them thought?

It has always been a part of the character of The Huntress that she craves Batman's approval for what she does, as he is responsible for her choice to be a superhero and a great deal of her anger toward him comes from his dismissive attitude. And no matter what, Oracle and Black Canary are seasoned professionals who do have the respect of DCU at large, not the least of which is Batman, so of course it matters what they think. She may not give a crap about their friendship (at least at that time she didn't) but she definitely wants respect for who she is and what she does and all they did was insult her. And she only had the date with Josh because of a case she was working on, so it was ironically for them.


But even if everything which you stated above were in fact true. What kind of ‘hero’ is Huntress if she debases herself because someone (especially two judgmental and snobby women-one whom she disliked) hurt her feelings? If she has that kind of mentality then she has no business being in costume, it shows that she has a fragile sense of self. The old Huntress/Helena would have put up with that non-sense for a minute—this was a character written by men. She was a woman with purpose, dignity and ambition.

And we're back to basically attitudes towards casual sex. How is sex with Josh, "debasing" herself? How does that take away her "purpose, dignity and ambition"? Josh returned to help her infiltrated the Gotham mobs, so while a he's serious wanker, he's not a coward and The Huntress obviously saw there was more to him. And you're ignoring that Gail Simone and Devin Grayson were the only two women to ever write The Huntress, so her child rape origin and Batman daddy/inferiority complex came from them as well. They also wrote that she gained such little respect as The Huntress that she had to dress up as Batgirl to intimidate people during the No Man's Land storyline. How is that less of a blight against her character than sleeping with one dude?

Like I said, you want two-dimensional heroes, heroes whose flaws can only be seen as somehow admirable, like Batman's cold distance. It can't be a benign unpleasant flaw, because somehow that invalidates every single other aspect of her personality.

What's ironic is that The Huntress once kicked in a guy's teeth for calling her a slut and you who claimed to love her, called her a whore.

[AllisterH]

re: Josh

I liked Josh mainly because he acted like how I imagine most people would respond when faced with a superheroine.

Superhero(ines) in the DCU are seen as royalty/actors/sport stars/firefighters all wrapped in one package. Huntress herself, while not an A-list hero is defnitely on the B-list or at the least, high C-list.

Josh, to me, acted how a guy should. I mean, why was it boorish to want to flaunt your date given that throughout most people's own dating history, guys and gals want to show off their dates.

re: Helena a whore/slut
Personally, I always find this charge weak. In fact, I find most superheroine urealistic in the number of partners.

Take Buffy for example. Counting the Season 8 comic and excluding the 1st year where she was a virgin, Buffy has slept with 5 different people in 7 years. Yet I've never heard of fans of Buffy calling her a slut

Helena has slept with what 4 people since the original CRISIS?

[Alexx1]

Ivory Madison interview with newsarama:

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=149603

[The Xenos]

Interesting to hear her response to the backlash. While I understand and even applaud Madison's reasons for going with the lawyer route, I still miss the teacher aspect.

I wonder. Is there a compromise? Could she have gotten her law degree, but somehow decided to end up teaching? Maybe she went undercover and decided she liked working with the kids. Maybe something about her family's old Gotham neighborhood made her go back. Well, not that I think she grew up in the middle of Gotham given her background. Unless it was a Little Italy in Gotham which has fallen to pieces since.

Plus, despite the history of sexism forcing women into the role, teachers are just as important as lawyers. Aside from Peter Parker teaching, which I think already is retconned out of existence, I can't think of any others. So I'm hesitant to see another teacher superhero or vigilante retconned out of existence.

Also, we already have Manhunter as an amazing character in the lawyer and vigilante field. Well, we would if DC would publish the damn thing again! Though I forget the story why they aren't, if the author is busy or the publisher. Hopefully maybe we'll at least see her again in Birds pf Prey.

I know Madison enjoyed the old Helena Wayne Huntress, but that was simply a different character. Then again, the early Helena Burtonelli was a bit different too. Still, I am hesitant to start mixing the old Earth 2 Huntress with this one.

[Agent_Torpor]

Screw this. I'd rather see Lady Blackhawk get her own treatment than Huntress (Zzzzz).

And the lawyer approach just sealed the deal as a non-buy.

[carabas]

I find it hard to believe that a comics rookie will improve on Greg Rucka's magnificent Huntress origin. Especially if she's looking to Earth 2 for inspiration.

[WorstThingUS]

I love, love, love she's refusing to let her be drawn as a pin-up. Needless to say, she won't be working with Ed Benes.

[Agent_Torpor]

I love, love, love she's refusing to let her be drawn as a pin-up. Needless to say, she won't be working with Ed Benes.

Aside from Benes, has anyone really drawn her as a pinup? Nicola Scott sure doesn't.

Sounds like needless proselytizing from Ms. Ivory Madison.

[WorstThingUS]

Aside from Benes, has anyone really drawn her as a pinup? Nicola Scott sure doesn't.

Sounds like needless proselytizing from Ms. Ivory Madison.

I'm with her because Batman doesn't exactly stand like this:

http://images.newsarama.com/dcnew/Nov06/bat_nov/huntress_tpb.jpg

And the work of Benes speaks for itself:

http://www.comiconart.com/images/EdBenes/Huntress5.jpg

http://fourcolorexplosion.com/images/covers/birdsofprey79.jpg

Nothing puts fear in a villain's heart like a hunk of exposed butt-cheek.

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

The beauty of female curvature - Madison said something about no arched backs.

I liked the early 90s Huntress best - Cavalieri's. She preferred to work alone, and I liked that. If I recall, the setting was New York, not Gotham, and one arc involved gangs in Harlem, which was very poignant at the time during the crack epidemic.

[sabongero]

Okay Ed Benes drew that. But isn't his style in drawing women similar to Joe Bennet's drawing of women in the Birds of Prey during their tenure there with Gail Simone ?

Cheesecake ... Huntress's costume makes the cheesecake look like it has a blueberry cheesecake.

I'm with her because Batman doesn't exactly stand like this:

http://images.newsarama.com/dcnew/Nov06/bat_nov/huntress_tpb.jpg

And the work of Benes speaks for itself:

http://www.comiconart.com/images/EdBenes/Huntress5.jpg

http://fourcolorexplosion.com/images/covers/birdsofprey79.jpg

Nothing puts fear in a villain's heart like a hunk of exposed butt-cheek.

[The Xenos]

Could we, ya know, not repost the giant embeded images? Text links and thumbsnails people. They help make a page easier to scan.

Meanwhile, I don't need the cheesecake. Not that it's inherantly bad, but I don't see the need for it. To me Huntress is just as sexy in Burchett's art in the series with Rucka or in Scott's BoP issues as she was in the Benes issues of BoP.

[rogerio]

any preview available?
cannot wait...:)

[Agent_Torpor]

Eh, i'll pass. Ivory Madison's self-aggrandizing "feminism" at the expense of good ol' fashioned superheroine cheesecake (and Huntress wasn't really one to shoot out her tits and ass in a most convex way anyway) smacks of needless preaching.

If I wanted to deal with a do-gooder lawyer woman up against all odds, i'd go watch the new Fox show "Canterbury's Law". But I don't, so I won't. And I sure as hell ain't plunking down my hard-earned 2 bucks and change for it.

[WorstThingUS]

Eh, i'll pass. Ivory Madison's self-aggrandizing "feminism" at the expense of good ol' fashioned superheroine cheesecake (and Huntress wasn't really one to shoot out her tits and ass in a most convex way anyway) smacks of needless preaching.


Yes, nothing "smacks of needless preaching" like removing the requirement that your character be a sex object first and foremost.

[Mia]

Could you be more humorless? It's obviously a joke. She tries to appeal to something decent inside him and his response is to just want to make his ex jealous and she gives a resigned sigh.

That’s not funny. I don’t any woman—with intelligence or self-respect-- who would laugh at that much less take off her clothes and allow a man to use her sexually. If you think that’s something to say to a woman on a date, then I really don’t know what to say.


"Granted him sexual favors" I think that sums up the basic difference right there. Not everyone views sex as some sort of divine and holy encounter between two people. For some it's the end all be all to human connection, to others a casual pastime. The Huntress obviously takes sex very casually and you just don't like it.

Yes I don’t like it. Because it runs completely contrary to the characters nature and how she was originally set up. Here’s a passage from Birds of Prey Manhunt, written by Chuck Dixon and pre-dates Gail Simone’s run on BOP. It gives a full and accurate description of not only the kind of man Huntress is attracted to but describes Huntress herself:


I met him at the Carney Opera Hall—The Opening of the new season. Maybe it was the Verdi, maybe it was the little boy lost look. He zeroed in on me after final curtain…..I fell for the full load…What a charming rat he is. He was perfect. Cultured, attractive and mannered and patient—I can be pretty aloof. But he wasn’t ducking commitment. It was like he was made for me. Or programmed for me.
--Excerpted from Birds of Prey Manhunt issue 1

Josh sound like he fits this description to you? The scenario with Josh not to mention Nightwing was a complete ret-con and re-writing of the character. Huntress as she was set up, does not like sleazy uncouth pigs and she certainly isn’t easy.




Indulging in casual sex doesn't make her weaker or less heroic than it does Nightwing, Green Arrow, Green Lantern or anyone else we've seen do it. I will admit that I was a bit shocked that The Huntress would hook up with Josh, but like I said, it was set up by her day of being insulted by two people whom you just when through hell with and for who quite frankly seemed to regard for sleeping with Nightwing and Arsenal the same way you regard her for sleeping with Josh. .

Again like I said in my previous post. That entire scene does a huge disservice to the character. First of all it completely ignores the fact that prior to the sudden manufactured friendship by the author. Oracle and Huntress hated each others guts. Oracle has not only treated Huntress shabbily, she’s left her hanging in her hour of needs. So it’s highly unlikely and improbable that Huntress would debase herself because of the treatment she received from her. Second Huntress has weathered far more harsher slights from Batman (whom by the way she holds more respect than Oracle) without debasing herself so why would she do so for Oracle—especially considering the level of animosity?




And we're back to basically attitudes towards casual sex. How is sex with Josh, "debasing" herself? How does that take away her "purpose, dignity and ambition"? Josh returned to help her infiltrated the Gotham mobs, so while a he's serious wanker, he's not a coward and The Huntress obviously saw there was more to him.

Because as stated above, Josh just finished treating her like a piece of crap. The old Huntress would never have put up with that kind of treatment for a second much less take off her clothes. You yourself even admit that he’s a ‘douchebag’ and a ‘serious wanker’. That in itself that you don’t think very highly of him.




They also wrote that she gained such little respect as The Huntress that she had to dress up as Batgirl to intimidate people during the No Man's Land storyline. How is that less of a blight against her character than sleeping with one dude? .

Sorry I don’t follow. However I will say this Huntress started to dress up as Batgirl, because she wasn’t having much of an effect as Huntress during the NML, and thought that using the Batsymbol would have much more of an effect. But so what? Dick Grayson did the same thing during the whole ‘Prodigal’ story. He adopted the Bat mantle in order to the patrol the streets of Gotham. Does that make Nightwing a less of a character because he agreed to don the Bat mantle instead of his own?



Like I said, you want two-dimensional heroes, heroes whose flaws can only be seen as somehow admirable, like Batman's cold distance. It can't be a benign unpleasant flaw, because somehow that invalidates every single other aspect of her personality.




Respectfully you haven’t a clue what you are talking about. Some of my favourite comic book heroines are quite notorious and not exactly very nice. And I would never call their faults “benign”. My problem with the Simone/Winnick/Grayson version of Huntress has nothing to do with any kind of personal prudery. Some of my favourite comic book heroines have been known to either use their sexuality to get their way or have even been known to use men for their own sexual gratification. But the things with these women is that they either have been written like that from the beginning or the men whom they’ve been involved with are worthy of them. But as stated above this is not the way in which Huntress was set up. She was very aloof, moral and very choosy.

Even when the story ran, I said I would not have had a problem with it, had the man been written as the type Huntress would be naturally attracted to (like Braun above)—because it would have been fitting with her character and who she is.

Having her go to bed with a slimy little weazle who just treated her like a piece of crap. Does nothing favourable for the character. It makes her look like an idiot and a woman who has no self-respect or dignity. You might see this kind of behaviour noble and exemplarity. I don’t. If I want to see a woman who behaves like a looser I don’t have to shell out 3 dollars for a comic book. I can get that for free watching American soap operas

[Mia]

NRAMA: What is your take on the Huntress? With the number of strong, modern female characters on the rise in the DCU--where does she fit in?

IM: Helena has very strong moral values, believes in honor, and is a loner. She’s principled, smart, and truly—truly—independent. She carries the pain and loss of her family with her at all times, and wants to destroy the mob with an epic vengeance.

To answer the second part of your question: She doesn’t fit in. That’s the problem. She doesn’t fit in with the mob, she doesn’t fit in with Batman, she doesn’t fit in with anyone.

NRAMA: What is the premise for Huntress: Year One? Is this a "tried and true" typical origin story or is this a new angle for the character? What can readers expect from your project?

IM: The building blocks of the story come from Greg Rucka’s Cry for Blood. Since Greg is one of my favorite writers and an inspiration to me, I was respectful of the hard work he did to establish her back story. I wrote a new “first meeting” with Batman, but was careful not to officially erase Greg’s version; we set it up so that both could have occurred. But I think our new “first meeting” provides more explanation of why Batman perceives her the way he does.

Well this all sounds good. When I heard about this book being launched last year, I really hoped that it was going to be on Helena Wayne. I thought that Helena Bertinelli had been ground into the ground enough as it was these last 4 years, and I was not prepared to read another hatchet job on the character. However this does not look like it will be the case. I also like the way that she’s mentioned that she’s there are some treatments of the character that were better left ignored.

Maybe I was too hasty in casting aspersions about female writers, because from what she’s said it looks as if she respects the character and understands what drives her. Could be partly due to the fact that Madison has a business background and understands how a powerful and ambitious woman would behave. Of course it all comes down the execution. But I don’t see any hint that there’ll be any hack writing on this book. I look forward to this.

[carabas]

That’s not funny. I don’t any woman—with intelligence or self-respect-- who would laugh at that much less take off her clothes and allow a man to use her sexually.Intelligence really has very little to do with anything. As for self-respect, it tends to come and go, and Helena had pretty much hit an all time low.

Yes I don’t like it. Because it runs completely contrary to the characters nature and how she was originally set up. Here’s a passage from Birds of Prey Manhunt, written by Chuck Dixon and pre-dates Gail Simone’s run on BOP.It also predates a lot of later characterisation of Helena. Stuff happened to the character between Dixon wrote that and AGil started her run, and to casually disregard that would be bad and lazy writing..

a complete ret-con and re-writing of the character. Huntress as she was set upCharacters aren't static. Good thing too, as Helena Bertinelli was set up as little more than a Punisher-light vigilante type that are a dime a dozen.

First of all it completely ignores the fact that prior to the sudden manufactured friendship by the author. Oracle and Huntress hated each others guts.Ther is no sudden, manufactured friendship. Bab and Helena really do not get along at all in the first year or so of Gail's run on BoP. Arranging a teaching job for her went a long way towards making peace though.

So it’s highly unlikely and improbable that Huntress would debase herself because of the treatment she received from her. Second Huntress has weathered far more harsher slights from Batman (whom by the way she holds more respect than Oracle) without debasing herself so why would she do so for Oracle—especially considering the level of animosity?She's not doing it for Oracle. She's doing it because people will die if she quits.

Because as stated above, Josh just finished treating her like a piece of crap. The old Huntress would never have put up with that kind of treatmentAnd the old Huntress had gone bye bye some years prior to that issue.

Sorry I don’t follow. However I will say this Huntress started to dress up as Batgirl, because she wasn’t having much of an effect as Huntress during the NML, and thought that using the Batsymbol would have much more of an effect.Yeah, this is pretty much correct. Although her not telling Batman who she was reeks of a lack of self-confidence.

Having her go to bed with a slimy little weazle who just treated her like a piece of crap. Does nothing favourable for the character. It makes her look like an idiot and a woman who has no self-respect or dignity.And this is exactly the point you keep on missing/willfully ignoring: sleeping with Josh was Helena's "road to Damascus” experience. Her realisiation that she had hit rock bottom (as the result of what previous writers had done to the character) and that she had to turn her life around, which would include things she rather didn't do, but realised would pay of for her in the long run, such as joining Oracle's little gang even though she didn't like Babs at all.

It's something Gail's really good at: taking a character that's been terribly mismanaged, and fixing it. The Huntress from the end of Gail's run wouldn't sleep with soemone like Josh in a million years. The one she inherited at the start of her run would.

[Agent_Torpor]

Yes, nothing "smacks of needless preaching" like removing the requirement that your character be a sex object first and foremost.

No one ever actually insinuated that Huntress should be a sex object. She's never been written as such, and aside from Benes (who does that to all his female characters), her artistic depiction has been relatively tame.

So what's Madison's point anyway? It's a slap-in-the-face to Gail Simone and others who have successfully scripted the character before and never had to resort to cheesecake sexiness.

[WorstThingUS]

No one ever actually insinuated that Huntress should be a sex object. She's never been written as such, and aside from Benes (who does that to all his female characters), her artistic depiction has been relatively tame.

So what's Madison's point anyway? It's a slap-in-the-face to Gail Simone and others who have successfully scripted the character before and never had to resort to cheesecake sexiness.

She didn't but she was saddled with Ed Benes who knows no other way. At one point Gail herself mentioned he'd gone too far and even said some pre-solicitation artwork would be changed. It wasn't. I think this is a clear reference to Benes.

[Froggy]

In my eyes. Judd Winnick. Not only did he write her as your stereotypical 'psycho b*tch'. He also used the character as nothing but a 'mattress' to make Arsenal, his pet Marty Stu, look like a stud. I found the whole thing revolting.
damn....roy and dick get around........one of htem HAS to have caught something
Oh, my god, I can't believe we're still having this conversation.

Yipes.

Well, welcome back anyway, Mia. It's nice to see you back in any case.

Gail

HI GAIL