death of the new gods?

[Ullar]

I was wondering if I have to read this to understand FC?

[4thHorseman]

I would say no since Grant says he's going to pretty much ignore the series in Final Crisis. But since FC hasn't come out yet, I'm not sure of what to expect the fallout to be from it. Essentially someone is murdering the New Gods, and only one (from what Starlin says) is going to survive from it. I think there are supposed to be new New Gods to come out of FC.

[Ullar]

thanks man.

[Zero Hunter]

The way it's looking the last one standing is either going to be Mister Miracle, Metron, or Darkseid. Pretty much the rest of the New Gods are gone now.

[Ullar]

Orion died? That sucks.

[Sean Walsh]

Orion died? That sucks.

But at least he didn't go out in a lame way.

He went out like a god would. :)

[Ullar]

But at least he didn't go out in a lame way.

He went out like a god would. :)

Well thats good. Besides dead in comics is like a vacation anyway (hopefully). Wait a sec how can Gods die?

[Paul Newell]

Wait a sec how can Gods die?
By being killed. Heck, the New Gods starts with the Old Gods dying in Ragnarok, bringing about the birth of the New Gods.

[Ullar]

Thanks man. The only things I know about the new gods are from JLU. So the old Gods were Norse gods?

[Laughing Mask]

yes, dc thought it would be a great idea to kill them off. :mad:

[Ullar]

yes, dc thought it would be a great idea to kill them off. :mad:

Worst. Idea. Ever. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Paul Newell]

Thanks man. The only things I know about the new gods are from JLU. So the old Gods were Norse gods?
Not as such...Well there were all sorts of rumours that the New Gods were a continuation of idea's he'd been working on in one of the various series he was doing for Marvel in the 70's. Can't remember if the Old Gods were thought to be representational of either, the Norse Gods from Kirby's "Tales of Asgard" back ups in Thor or whether they were supposed to be the Eternals.

Though this could have just been fan speculation.

EDIT: Just checked around and apparently in New Gods #1, when they talk about the Old Gods dying, we see a panel of rubble with a helmet that resembles Thor's. :)
Also the Eternals were created after the New Gods

[Ullar]

Not as such...Well there were all sorts of rumours that the New Gods were a continuation of idea's he'd been working on in one of the various series he was doing for Marvel in the 70's. Can't remember if the Old Gods were thought to be representational of either, the Norse Gods from Kirby's "Tales of Asgard" back ups in Thor or whether they were supposed to be the Eternals.

Though this could have just been fan speculation.

EDIT: Just checked around and apparently in New Gods #1, when they talk about the Old Gods dying, we see a panel of rubble with a helmet that resembles Thor's. :)
Also the Eternals were created after the New Gods

Thats pretty cool. Thanks.

[Babylon23]

EDIT: Just checked around and apparently in New Gods #1, when they talk about the Old Gods dying, we see a panel of rubble with a helmet that resembles Thor's. :)

IIRC, there are other hints that the Old Gods were the Norse Gods. Subsequent Kirby issues expand on the war a little, listing both Loki (spelt Lokee)and Baldur (spelt Balduur) as being an intergral part of the war.

[carabas]

Most importantly, according to the afterword in the first volume of the Fouth World omnibus, Kirby's first idea for the New Gods was way back at Marvel, as part of a Ragnarok story for Thor and the rest of the Norse gods. Marvel kinda frowned on him offing thor and his entire supporting cast though, so he shelved the idea until later.

[Sean Walsh]

Marvel kinda frowned on him offing thor and his entire supporting cast though, so he shelved the idea until later.

So did Marvel, as we saw 35 years later....... ;) :p

[Kid Kyoto]

In his 90s New Gods series John Byrne established that there were 4 worlds:
1-A single primal god-planet
2-A world of primal gods (the old gods) who died in a final battle and created:
3-The various gods and superpowered beings of Earth and other worlds
4-The New Gods

So as far as the DCU is concerned the old gods were unnamed dieties who died millions of years ago and gave birth to the gods of myth and the new gods.

[carabas]

In his 90s New Gods series John Byrne established that there were 4 worlds:
1-A single primal god-planet
2-A world of primal gods (the old gods) who died in a final battle and created:
3-The various gods and superpowered beings of Earth and other worlds
4-The New Gods.
And much, much earlier Jack Kirby established that 'The fourth World' just sounded cool, and doesn't really mean anything storywise.
Most of John Byrne's additions, explanations, and retcons to better writers' works should be cassually ignored as a rule.

[botch]

Most importantly, according to the afterword in the first volume of the Fouth World omnibus, Kirby's first idea for the New Gods was way back at Marvel, as part of a Ragnarok story for Thor and the rest of the Norse gods. Marvel kinda frowned on him offing thor and his entire supporting cast though, so he shelved the idea until later.

guess marvel was on the money.

[palaeomerus]

And much, much earlier Jack Kirby established that 'The fourth World' just sounded cool, and doesn't really mean anything storywise.
Most of John Byrne's additions, explanations, and retcons to better writers' works should be cassually ignored as a rule.

Well, you'll get your chance to casually ignore some new stuff as much celebrated comics writer Grant Morrison is supposedly visualizing "the Death of the New Gods" as a means of getting to his "Fifth World".

lol!

[carabas]

Well, Morrison gets the Kirby ideas, weirdness, and wonder in ways Byrne can't even conceive off, so I'm looking forward to enjoying these supposed new New Gods.
His idea that so far nobody in the DCU has even seen a glimps of the Fourth world's real power is a nice one.

[boshobosho]

I missed Death of the the New Gods. They killed off Barda?
Dammit! She was such a nice, meaty piece of ass! YES, I STILL HAVE SOME FANBOY T&A DREAMS! Don't we all?

[carabas]

I missed Death of the the New Gods. They killed off Barda?They killed of the lot of them. As of the latest issue, the entire Fourth World is down to just Darkseid and the source.

[titanfan]

They killed off all of them--and it's pretty clear that they're all going to come back in some form sooner or later...I wouldn't worry about it. Their souls were being trapped in that wall thingie...right?

[JCAll]

They killed off all of them--and it's pretty clear that they're all going to come back in some form sooner or later...I wouldn't worry about it. Their souls were being trapped in that wall thingie...right?

Part of them is trapped in Jimmy Olsen too...

[adam_warlock_2099]

They killed of the lot of them. As of the latest issue, the entire Fourth World is down to just Darkseid and the source.

When is issue #7 being released?

[Slaughter]

When is issue #7 being released?

It already has. We're waiting for the eighth now. The cliffhanger is incredible!

[adam_warlock_2099]

It already has. We're waiting for the eighth now. The cliffhanger is incredible!

There's eight issues? Man I guess I was delusional. I thought I remember it say issue #__ of 7. Hmm.

Damn in that case I need to get a copy of 7.

Edit: I am flipping out. 8-) Dang I missed issue 7.

[palaeomerus]

Well, Morrison gets the Kirby ideas, weirdness, and wonder in ways Byrne can't even conceive off, so I'm looking forward to enjoying these supposed new New Gods.
His idea that so far nobody in the DCU has even seen a glimps of the Fourth world's real power is a nice one.

Byrne's new God stuff wasn't that great nor was Simonsons really, but that doesn't make Morriosn's take very impressive especially if he follows his Seven Soldiers ideas.

Blecch.

I'm not sure what the tripe about " none having seen a glimpse of the fourth world's power" is even supposed to mean other than being lame hyperbole.

Read "the Pact" sometime and you'll see that Kirby already had the New Gods using the stars and planets and ships as large as solar systems as weapons against each other before Izaya became Highfather.

Meanwhile Morrison gave us "Urban Gangster Darkside", washed up Boxer Orion and tried to spell out the anti-life equation.

Neil Gaiman messed up the Eternals.

Rick Veitch gave us a hallucinating shaman Question.

Everytime "hot writer x" comes along to fix this old stuff they just seem to screw it all up.

[carabas]

[QUOTE]I'm not sure what the tripe about " none having seen a glimpse of the fourth world's power" is even supposed to mean other than being lame hyperbole.It's the 7 Soldiers ideas again. In a nutshell, what we've seen so far have not been the actual New Gods, but representations or avatars of them. The classical version of Darkseid (or the gangsta version for that matter) are to the actual Morrisonian Darkseid like a circle is to a sphere. A scaled down version of the actual thing.

Read "the Pact" sometime and you'll see that Kirby already had the New Gods using the stars and planets and ships as large as solar systems as weapons against each other before Izaya became Highfather.I have bought all of the new Fourth World hardcover editions and have enjoyed the first three very much (haven't had the time to get through the final volume yet).
While the New Gods did use planets and suns and whatnot as weapons, they also required very advanced technology to do so. In various space operas, non-powered ordinairy humans and aliens achieve feats on that scale all the time. Kirby's New Gos were more or less on the level of those that created the Ringworld (from the Larry Niven novel of the same name).

Meanwhile Morrison gave us "Urban Gangster Darkside", washed up Boxer Orion and tried to spell out the anti-life equation.They weren't the actual New Gods but merely their earthly appearances. Plus, all of it took place in Mr. Miracle's mind anyway while he was in the black hole. None of it was really real. As for spelling out the Anti-Life Equation, stop taking everything so literal. I thought that it was a good expression of the nature of the ALE though. Much better than the glowing numbers in Death of the New Gods or whatever that great big Anti-Life beast was.

Neil Gaiman messed up the Eternals.I wouldn't know. I have read neither the old nor the Gaimanned version. They're both on a very long to-read list.

Rick Veitch gave us a hallucinating shaman Question.

Everytime "hot writer x" comes along to fix this old stuff they just seem to screw it all up.Rick Veitch is a hot writer now? I didn't like it, too different from the Denny O'Neil Question.

[palaeomerus]

[quote=palaeomerus;6664027]It's the 7 Soldiers ideas again. In a nutshell, what we've seen so far have not been the actual New Gods, but representations or avatars of them. The classical version of Darkseid (or the gangsta version for that matter) are to the actual Morrisonian Darkseid like a circle is to a sphere. A scaled down version of the actual thing.

No the classical versions are the actual function and the Morrison version is another in a long series of derivatives that muck around carelessly with what made the 4th world awesome.

I have bought all of the new Fourth World hardcover editions and have enjoyed the first three very much (haven't had the time to get through the final volume yet).
While the New Gods did use planets and suns and whatnot as weapons, they also required very advanced technology to do so. In various space operas, non-powered ordinairy humans and aliens achieve feats on that scale all the time. Kirby's New Gos were more or less on the level of those that created the Ringworld (from the Larry Niven novel of the same name).

Kirby's New Gods also had super powers. They saw through time and space, transformed people into mutants, absorbed enormous amounts of energy, manipulated gravity through will, disintegrated people, outran the embodiment of death and performed lots of other wonders quite independent of their technology. That technology BTW was a good bit beyond the Ringworld engineers. The New Gods made living computers that could contact what was essentially "God with a capital G" and synthesized an element that allowed transit to virtually anywhere in space and time yet still did not allow them access to the source. Heck the source wall is a rather boring repalcement for the void at the end of time were the promethean giants ended up time-frozen expanded to a state larger than galaxies in their futile and failed quest for contact with the source.

They weren't the actual New Gods but merely their earthly appearances. Plus, all of it took place in Mr. Miracle's mind anyway while he was in the black hole. None of it was really real.

Kirby's New God's weren't really real. But we got a look at how Morrison thinks with that storyline. And it ain't pretty from my point of view.

As for spelling out the Anti-Life Equation, stop taking everything so literal. I thought that it was a good expression of the nature of the ALE though. Much better than the glowing numbers in Death of the New Gods or whatever that great big Anti-Life beast was.

All three seem pretty lame. Kirby seemed to think that Antilife was a means of perfect unbreakable mind control. It was an ideal pursued by Darkseid that he believed could be decanted from the minds of certain humans and gods. He promulgated an imperfect and escapable "philosophy" of "total submission to Darkseid" theough agents like Glorious Godfrey but knew it fell far short of his goal. But spelling it out? That takes all the mystery out of it and turns it from a brilliant Mcguffin into...bad poetry from college student's myspace page. Blech. The Anti-life equation is not a monster, a magic spell that foozels people, weird cosmic radiation, or a bumbling free form treatise on what sucks about oppression. Anti-life is the mysterious means of eliminating that which allows people and gods to resist and defy Darkseid. It is the end of individual will.

I wouldn't know. I have read neither the old nor the Gaimanned version. They're both on a very long to-read list.

Rick Veitch is a hot writer now? I didn't like it, too different from the Denny O'Neil Question.

Yes Rick Veitch is generally counted amongst the hot writers. Even Denny O'Neil's Question was a rather tasteless sabotage on the insanely self assured (and sadly unsucessful) Ditko original. But apparently soaking the Question in enlightnement seeking and eastern mysticism wasn't enough. Mr. Veitch had to add shamman visions and urban spirtualism to it all so an Ayn Rand spouting ultra-epiricist goes to a wandering detective seeking the path beyond the illusion of identity to a crazy new age trip to a corpse to a woman.

Silly.

[carabas]

No the classical versions are the actual function and the Morrison version is another in a long series of derivatives that muck around carelessly with what made the 4th world awesome.They were, and now they aren't. This sort of thing happens in comics. The New Gods have been carelesly mucked around with ever since Kirby was made to set them in the confines of the DCU. And whatever Morrison is planning, I doubt it will be careless.
Also, Kirby himself was oppose to the idea of his creations being set in stone the way he wrote them.

[QUOTE]Kirby's New Gods also had super powers.I didn't say they don't.

They saw through time and space, transformed people into mutants, absorbed enormous amounts of energy, manipulated gravity through will, disintegrated people, outran the embodiment of death and performed lots of other wonders quite independent of their technology.They have powers, but, especially in the context of the DCU, they do not have divine level powers (except for the Omega Effect). And yes, they were very reliant on their technology. Take away their Boom Tubes, Astro Forces, Mother Boxes, Moebius Chairs and whatnot, and they become a lot less impressive.

That technology BTW was a good bit beyond the Ringworld engineers. The New Gods made living computers that could contact what was essentially "God with a capital G"Gods don't create computers that interface with god. A god's mortal priest might, if he had access to Kirby-tech. The Source is a properly divine power, and Highfather is its high priest.

and synthesized an element that allowed transit to virtually anywhere in space and time yet still did not allow them access to the source.Proper gods don't need to synthesise elemnts to do that.

Kirby's New God's weren't really real. But we got a look at how Morrison thinks with that storyline. And it ain't pretty from my point of view.That is of course entirely subjective. It took a bit of getting used to, but all in all, I liked it. The 7 Soldiers Mr. Miracl mini was also a hell of a lot closer in style and tone to the actual early Fourth World books than anything else I have read with those characters. Keep in mind, Darkseid was mucking around on earth on a very low level, with Glorious Godfrey's religion and his puppets were Intergang and Morgan Edge.

The DCU has proper gods in it. Zeus and Ares and their kin (who really can't even exist in the same continuity as the New Gods to begin with) would simply destroy any New God not related to Darkseid without needing to exert themselves. If the Spectre got it into its mind that Apokolips needs to be cleansed, there'd be little Darkseid could do about it but run and find a new planet to reverse-terraform.
The New Gods clearly are not gods in the classical sense. They're aliens with powers. They are very much derivative of the Von Daaniken books. And there is nothing bad with that at all. It just fits like a square peg into a round DCU. Brilliant as it was, the Fourth World has had this very severe flaw right from the start. And there is nothing wrong with seeing if this flaw can't be fixed.

All three seem pretty lame. Kirby seemed to think that Antilife was a means of perfect unbreakable mind control.To me it seems quite clear that to Kirby, the ALE was perfect fascism.
Let's have a look at the maligned page:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a288/Gugenheimer/18.jpg

Now, anyone seeing a literal spelling out of the ALE in that is, well, an overly litarel minded person who also might think that Spider-Man has visible wavy lines over his head when using his Spider-Sense.
The equation, as described by Morrison, also perfectly describes the mind-set in which one would happily accept a tyrannical oppressor: ultimate fascism. The ALE was not mind-control, it was the killing of individuality, like you said yourself.
Also, in light of the earlier arguments, I just want to point out that the ALE is not somemthing created by the New Gods, but an existing force of nature, imperfectly harnessed by Fourth World technology.

Yes Rick Veitch is generally counted amongst the hot writers.Really? What hot book has he written in the last decade or so?

Mr. Veitch had to add shamman visions and urban spirtualism to it all so an Ayn Rand spouting ultra-epiricist goes to a wandering detective seeking the path beyond the illusion of identity to a crazy new age trip to a corpse to a woman.
Well, I only read the first and a half issues and gave up, so I'm not going to defend the book, except that slamming it because it is not like Ditko rather than because it was indecypherable and rather dull with unappealing art is a rather close-minded view of things.
Silly.Silly is what I call hating a book because it tries something different with decades old characters that nobody manages to make work in their original form except for their creator who no longer has much or any interest in working with said character.